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Defense Drags Casey`s Brother Through Mud

Aired June 16, 2011 - 19:00:00   ET



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, day one of Casey Anthony`s defense testimony erupts into a firestorm. Jose Baez tries to drag brother Lee through the mud.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY`S ATTORNEY: Were you asked to conduct a paternity test for Lee Anthony to Caylee Anthony, being the potential father of Caylee Anthony?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Then, an outraged prosecutor accuses the defense of trying to inflame the jury with innuendo.

JEFF ASHTON, PROSECUTOR: What is the relevance of that, other than to suggest to the jury that there`s some information out there.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is the defense trying to get Casey`s molestation claims in without Casey herself having to take the stand?

Plus new indications Casey`s family could be crumbling under the pressure. We`re inside the courtroom at the Casey Anthony trial, and we`re taking your calls.

ISSUES starts now.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get out of line! Get out of line!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get out of line! Get out of line!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get out of line! Get out of line!

CINDY ANTHONY: I overheard her tell Lee that Caylee had been gone for 31 days.

CASEY ANTHONY, ON TRIAL FOR MURDER: The family is broken. We want to have that fixed.

BAEZ: She could be 13 years old, have her father (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in her mouth and then go to school and play with the other kids as if nothing ever happened.

CINDY ANTHONY: You slandered me on TV, and you perjured yourself with this.

BAEZ: Paternity test to determine if Lee Anthony was the biological father of Caylee Anthony.

CHENEY MASON, CASEY`S ATTORNEY: Ms. Anthony has a history of untruthfulness among family members and friends.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey told me she was crazy.

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY`S BROTHER: I told Detective Edwards that she said, "Because maybe I`m a spiteful (EXPLETIVE DELETED)."

CINDY ANTHONY: This is my granddaughter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I understand that.

CINDY ANTHONY: I`m extremely involved in this case. This is -- this is tearing me up every single day.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: Shut up. I`m talking. I am talking.

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: When they were in the elevator, they held each other and cried in each other`s arms the entire 23 floors.

CINDY ANTHONY: Please, before I lose my husband right now.

BAEZ: This family must keep its secrets quiet.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, how much can a family take? A ferocious war of words erupts in court. Casey Anthony`s defense kicks off with what prosecutors claim is a vicious attempt to inflame the jury by smearing Casey`s own brother.

And look at your calendars, people. What day is it? It`s June 16. Yes, today is exactly -- exactly -- three years to the day since little Casey vanished. And Casey`s defense began today. What a stunning twist of fate. What are the chances?

Outside court, balloons released, a somber tribute that highlighted this bizarre coincidence. What are the chances, really?

Inside court, fireworks. The defense seems intent on putting the entire Anthony family on trial, with innuendoes suggesting incest. Casey`s attorney repeatedly drops not-so-subtle hinds that her brother, Lee, was once suspected of being little Caylee`s biological dad.


BAEZ: Were you asked to conduct a paternity test for Lee Anthony as to Caylee, being the potential father of Caylee Anthony?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The FBI in this case did do a paternity test, but he was excluded as the potential father, and end of story.

ASHTON: There is no good faith basis for that. And also, of course, it`s hearsay.

BAEZ: Who did you understand they wanted you to compare the paternity test for?

ASHTON: What is the relevance of that? Other than to suggest to the jury that there`s some information out there that this jury has just not heard.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, just by the by, Lee is not little Caylee`s dad.

Is this Casey`s ultimate betrayal of her own family? Her defense team has accused her father, George, and her brother, Lee, of molesting her. And this defense has just begun.

Also, a shocking update on a surprise last-minute defense witness. Yesterday the defense tried to -- well, they introduced this fellow, a convicted kidnapper, Vasco Thompson, trying to connect him to George Anthony, claiming these two had exchanged phone calls the day before little Caylee was reported missing, or actually vanished.

As George and Cindy watch their daughter desperately try to save herself at their expense, I have to wonder what kind of hell has this family descended into?

Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.

Straight out to the former attorney for George and Cindy Anthony, Mark Nejame.

Mark, thank you for joining us tonight.

Today the defense emphasized a test to see if brother Lee had impregnated his sister, incest, which he had not. Is this an attempt by the defense to sneak in their molestation allegations without having to put Casey Anthony herself on the stand with all the risk that that could bring, Mark?

MARK NEJAME, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR ANTHONYS: Well, I think that`s a good analysis. The reality of it is, is we talked about that opening statement that Jose Baez gave, there`s nobody to tell the story except for Casey. So he`s going to try to -- he obviously attempted to sneak it in through the back door.

And so I think for the first time you saw Jeff Ashton, who I`ve known for a long time, who wears his emotions on his shirt sleeves, will get very upset about it. Because they were trying a sneak attack to get in evidence that was otherwise inadmissible. It was improper, and he got called on it, but let`s not forget: the jury still heard it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Does anything go in criminal trials these days? I guess so. And here`s my big issue: is this the ultimate betrayal by Casey of her family? As if losing their precious granddaughter wasn`t enough, George and Cindy have now been forced to hear and watch repeated accusations of incest and abuse. Listen.


BAEZ: I wanted to ask you if you conducted what would be considered a paternity test to determine if Lee Anthony was the biological father of Caylee Anthony.

Casey has a brother. When he was a teenager, he attempted to also touch his sister. Their father came into her room and began to touch her inappropriately.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you ever sexually molested your daughter, Casey Anthony?

G. ANTHONY: No, sir.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And what does all of this have to do with the death of a child? This is a portrait of a truly tortured family. And my very own ISSUES producer, Celine Darkalstanian joins me right now. Celine, you rode in an elevator with George and Cindy today at the courthouse. Tell us all about it.

CELINE DARKALSTANIAN, ISSUES PRODUCER: Jane, it was absolutely heartbreaking. I got into the elevator. They`re a mother and a father. Today`s the three-year anniversary of the death of their granddaughter. And Cindy was just holding on to George for dear life as the elevator was going up, and George was looking up and taking deep breaths. And, you know, Cindy was just looking up and taking deep breaths. And you know, Cindy was just grabbing onto him and holding on and looking down.

And they were both wearing jewelry to commemorate Caylee. Cindy was wearing a Caylee necklace, and George was wearing a Caylee bracelet. And they just were really somber; they looked very distraught. It was actually a really, really sad moment with them in the elevator. And they got up, and you know, they left the elevator. They were very, very loving with one another and leaning on one another for support.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mike Brooks, HLN law enforcement analyst, you have covered so many criminal trials. Have you ever seen a dynamic like this, where a defendant tries to put her entire family on trial?

MIKE BROOKS, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: No. She has thrown them under the steamroller, Jane. And it`s amazing to me. And today, Baez is trying to sneak that in there. And Jeff Ashton, as you said, as Mark said, he really got mad. And I think -- and the judge basically told him to calm down a little bit.

But, no, the family dynamic here, where you`ve got -- you`ve got -- right in opening statement, George and Lee both thrown under the bus. Now, are these lies that the attorneys are being told by Casey?

But there`s only person who`s going to be able to tell us the story. And if she gets up on the stand, are we ever going to really believe her? That`s the problem, Jane. She can`t be believed, period.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, she`s a pathological liar. When she says, "I swear to tell the truth, the truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God," who`s going to believe her?

BROOKS: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lisa Bloom, you`re the author of this fantastic new book, "Think: Straight Talk for Women to Stay Smart in a Dumbed-Down World," which applies to this case. This is a case of a young woman who has really taken some very sinister terms in her life.

This idea of attacking this family to the point of where Cindy is literally buckling in the elevator on the way into court, we know that Lee is not the biological father of little Caylee. That`s why I think people were so incensed by this particular question.

LISA BLOOM, AUTHOR, "THINK": Well, and it shows, and I don`t say this lightly, that clearly Casey is a sociopath. Because she has no conscience. She will bring down anyone, even her own parents, who stood by her, even her own brother.

And by the way, what about the ethics of her attorney, who`s after all the one who asked that question in court in front of the jury, knowing that Lee has been positively excluded as the father of Caylee. That`s a highly improper question, then, for the attorney to be asking, when he knows the answer is just entirely opposed to what he`s trying to suggest. So I bring him into this, as well.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I don`t know. Jeff Brown, the judge didn`t seem that offended by it. He just basically considered it, but he didn`t - - he didn`t buy into the outrage of the prosecution.

JEFF BROWN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, yes, but a little bit later, Jane, he did. Here`s what he said. He told the defense specifically, as well as the prosecutor, that they have to have a good- faith basis to ask a question. People think that we lawyers can just ask anything we want; we can`t. We have to have a good-faith basis to ask that question.

He put the defense on notice by telling them and giving them the cites, the two cases, that he knows that, and they`d better learn that. And then the second part of this is not only do you have to have a good- faith basis to ask the question, but if you`re going to get up in close and argue a piece of evidence, you have to have some evidence that`s been introduced.

And that`s why the prosecutor got so loud. He did it on purpose, because he knows a trial is theater. He wants this jury to know from the beginning that there`s no merit to that argument about sexual abuse. And there may very well be the risk that, if they don`t put Casey on the stand, this judge isn`t going to let him argue that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. But it`s always hard to put that genie back in the bottle, as they say. It`s a cliche. But there`s a reason why it`s a cliche.

Now, I`ve got to briefly talk about this other flank, this sort of new flank in the war against Casey`s family. This ex-con the defense suddenly introduces yesterday as a potential witness, a convicted kidnapper, Vasco Thompson, allegedly exchanged four phone calls with George Anthony the day before Cindy calls 911 to say her granddaughter`s missing. Is this new witness significant or another example of dirty pool designed to make George look shady?

Now, the defense has already accused George of molesting Casey, appears to be trying to link George to the duct tape found over little Caylee`s mouth. Dr. Dale Archer, they`re now trying to link George to this ex-con. George says he`s never heard of this guy. And his attorney says it`s probably a wrong number, because they`re matching up digits to a job that George has just taken. Dr. Dale, what kind of person defends themselves by attacking their own immediate family?

DR. DALE ARCHER, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, first of all, I don`t know why you guys are so surprised that Casey Anthony is doing this. This is who she is. She lies, she cheats, she steals. She`s done it all along. It`s all about her. Any single thing she can do to help her case, she will do. And if that means throwing her family under the bus, so be it.

So I am not surprised by this at all. She`s a pathological narcissist of the worst degree, and she is an incredible sociopath.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How did she get that way? That`s what we`re examining next, and it relates to motive. Call me.

Susan in Louisiana, hang in. I`ll get to you the other side: 1-877- JVM-SAYS. What some are doing to get a glimpse at this crazy trial. They`re sleeping overnight.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a walking, living soap opera, all the characters, from the prosecutors, defense attorneys, the people giving testimony are almost like celebrities. So it`s -- to be a part of it, I think I`ll always remember it.




MASON: The fact of the matter is that every evidence that we could cross-examine and such, no evidence of any prior trauma, injury or act of violence whatsoever.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: That was one of the Casey Anthony`s attorneys making a crucial point yesterday. Nobody has ever accused Casey Anthony of abusing her own daughter. So how can prosecutors convince the jury that Casey murdered her daughter?

Here`s my big issue tonight. Why? What is the deeper why? What is the motive? What kind of hatred must a young woman carry in her heart to plot and execute the murder of her own daughter?

The prosecution rested yesterday without the jury hearing any clear- cut motive. It`s not enough to say Casey killed Caylee so she could go out and party. Jurors might wonder, well, why didn`t Casey handle the child over to her doting grandma, Cindy?

Now, here`s a motive prosecutors might have tried to establish. They could have argued Casey Anthony never wanted Caylee. Casey reportedly tried to give the child up for adoption to a friend who wanted her. Cindy said, "No, you must bear and keep the child."

Also, when little Caylee was born, Cindy was reportedly the first person to hold the infant at the hospital, which Casey reportedly resented deeply.

Casey`s ex-fiance, Jesse Grund, said Cindy wanted little Caylee to call her, Cindy, "Mommy."

Wow, Lisa Bloom, why hasn`t the prosecution been able to get some of this potent stuff that points to motive in?

BLOOM: Well, it is powerful stuff, and it also shows why no woman should be forced to bear or raise a child that she doesn`t want. But putting that aside, the prosecution doesn`t have to prove motive. They probably feel like it`s too messy. They don`t want to go there. They just want to put a straightforward case in that she killed the baby, and that`s it. That`s all that they`re required to do.

And I think they put in a clean case the way that they did it. If I were them, I wouldn`t have brought all this in, either.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I don`t know. Listen, Jeff Brown, there`s a death penalty possibility here, and my understanding is that, if she`s convicted, then it doesn`t have to be unanimous by the jury to vote for death. So it`s ultimately up to the judge. I would be afraid, without really understanding why, to say, "I`m going to convict for murder one that she plotted," knowing she could be put to death.

BROWN: Yes, in Florida the jury makes a recommendation. It doesn`t have to be unanimous. It could be 7-5, for instance, for death. But ultimately, that`s just a recommendation. That`s up to the judge to make that decision. So the judge here, Judge Perry, will absolutely make the decision. You know, he can give the death penalty even if they vote 12-0 for life. That`s happened there in Florida. It`s been sustained by our supreme court. So, you know, you`re right on that.

But I disagree on why they didn`t call the witness for motive. I think they should have. That witness was very powerful, because you know, she also said and predicted where the body would be found and said that they buried pets at that very place and they put stickers, heart-shaped stickers, on their pets they buried. I think they made a critical mistake.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You think they made -- they made mistake?

BROOKS: NO, I don`t think so. But if you look at the incident that may have happened at the house, at the Anthony house on June 15, there`s a police report that talks about an incident between Casey and Cindy, where Cindy actually was choking Casey, and we`ve also heard that apparently Jesse Grund told Lee that this happened also -- it was told to him.

But we heard Linda Drane-Burdick say that basically, motive-wise, it is a relationship and resentment between the mother and daughter. So, you know, they are touching on motive here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`re going to get into it deeper. And next I`m going to talk to two women who camped outside overnight to get in court today. Check this out.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a walking living soap opera.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re kind of emotionally attached.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To be a part of it, I think I`ll always remember.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everybody get in order.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow, Casey Anthony trial fever sweeping the country, a spectator sport it`s become. People driving for hours, camping out overnight to get a courtroom seat. We`re talking men, women, young, old, even tourists from abroad.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had seen the case in England, like, when it happened, and then it was rumored that the trial was supposed to start last week. So I thought, while I was in town, I thought how could I miss, as they dubbed it, the trial of the century?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: What makes this case so very compelling, so powerful? I want to ask two very special guests, Kim Chaney and Susan Rand. You two lined up last night to get seats inside the courtroom. I`ll start with Susan. Why? What made you camp out overnight?

SUSAN RAND, ATTENDING CASEY ANTHONY TRIAL: Well, we just want to be here. We want to see everything that`s going on, be a part of it. You know, it`s actually history, not in necessarily a good way, you know, at the expense of a child. You know, it`s sad, but it`s interesting.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, Kim, why do you think this has taken such a hold with the public? Why do you think? I think it`s a mother/daughter relationship. We all have parents, and we all have families. And none of our families, apparently, are as dysfunctional as the Anthony family.

KIM CHANEY, ATTENDING CASEY ANTHONY TRIAL: Exactly. I -- you know, I agree with you total 100 percent. You know, as a mother myself, and I have a daughter, I have two sons that, you know, are just precious in my heart. And, you know, I couldn`t imagine anything -- I`ve had a tragedy happen in my life. I lost my oldest son, and I`ll never, ever, get over it. You know, it wasn`t nothing like a murder or nothing like that, whatsoever. It was just an accident. But you know, my heart is broken for the rest of my life. But that`s not the reason...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So in a way does this soothe you? Does this provide solace that wow, it could even be worse? There are worse things than the tragedy? Even though I have total empathy and condolences for your tragedy, that this is something in another dimension?

CHANEY: Yes. I mean, somewhat. I mean, my babies are just precious to me. My other -- my son is going to be 26, my younger son, 26 Saturday.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And you compare your life to theirs?

CHANEY: No, I don`t compare my life to the Anthonys whatsoever. I just as a mother and just -- you know, I can`t -- you know, my heart is broken. I just think when you see Casey in the trial, I mean, I just -- she just doesn`t even feel any emotion to me. You know, when it`s not about her, they`re not talking about her. She`s upset, it seems like.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you think she`s sick? Do you think she`s sick or evil?

CHANEY: Evil. Evil.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What about you, Susan?

RAND: She`s got to be evil. She`s got to be evil. You know, she was blessed with that beautiful baby, you know, to take care of and to love and to be proud of. And you know that baby adored her.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you have no doubt that she`s guilty? Are you giving her the benefit of the doubt? What about the defense that just started?

CHANEY: Good luck to them. That`s all I can say, you know.


CHANEY: If they can -- if they can walk away, you know, and hold their head up.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`d vote for murder one today?

CHANEY: Yes. Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s a yes?






UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Baby killer! Baby killer!


CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you ever sexually molested your daughter Casey Anthony?

G. ANTHONY: No, sir.

CINDY ANTHONY: You call for a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) one more time. And what are you (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What are you going to do?

JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: When Casey was 8 years old and her father came into her room and began to touch her inappropriately, and it escalated, and it escalated.

CINDY ANTHONY: There you go. You want to fight it?

BAEZ: Casey has a brother. And he too wanted to follow in his father`s footsteps. He attempted to also touch his sister.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All the people come out and crucify you for this because of the all the lies you`ve been telling us.

BAEZ: If you conducted what would be considered a paternity test to determine if Lee Anthony was the biological father of Caylee Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have anything to say about the new theory that (INAUDIBLE); it might have been an accident?

G. ANTHONY: Shut up.


LEE ANTHONY, BROTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: CMA, I miss you. I love you. CMA, I am so proud of you.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: A love answered with betrayal? Tonight is Casey Anthony taking down her own family just to save her skin?


CASEY ANTHONY: Can someone let me -- come on.

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, hold on, sweetie. Settle down.

CASEY ANTHONY: Nobody is letting me speak. You want me to talk then --

CINDY ANTHONY: All right. I`ll listen to you.

CASEY ANTHONY: -- give me three seconds to say something.

CINDY ANTHONY: Go, sweetheart.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m not over control over any of this because I don`t know what the hell is going on.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: There you see her, talking to her mother, showed up at the jail to talk to her daughter, and she`s blaming her mother now for letting Caylee have access to the pool, because Casey claims her daughter drowned in that pool. She`s also accused her dad of sexually molesting her.

Today Day One of the defense case, Jose Baez lashed out at her brother Lee with this sinister line of questioning directed to an expert. Check it out.


BAEZ: Were you asked to conduct a paternity test for Lee Anthony as to Caylee Anthony -- for being the potential father?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Lee Anthony and George Anthony can both be excluded as potential fathers for Caylee, but to ask that question, suggesting that law enforcement specifically inquired is not a good-faith question.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I want to go straight out to Michael Christian, senior field producer, "In Session"; do you think Jose was making a sideways reference to the alleged molestation claims that he made against Lee in his shocking opening statement? And how was the jury responding to what they heard? I know they were thrown out of court for a while, but how did they respond when this word "paternity test" came up?

MICHALE CHRISTIAN, SENIOR FIELD PRODUCER, "IN SESSION": I think that`s absolutely what it was Jane. I think that just by the fact that the FBI even considered or there was a request to the FBI for a paternity test shows that this is some sort of dysfunctional thing that maybe there was some suspicion of Lee molesting or impregnating Casey.

You know, there jurors in the case are pretty stoic. They take a lot of notes. I didn`t notice them taking a lot of notes today during the defense. Now, a lot of it was the scientific stuff; that`s things that you think they might take note on. And I really didn`t see any of it. So they were clearly listening to this stuff, but I didn`t see notes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Susan, Louisiana has been so patient. Your questions or thoughts, Susan?

SUSAN, LOUISIANA (via telephone): Jane, do you think that Baez is going to call George Anthony to the stand and ask him about his suicide attempt and the fact that he told his mistress that Caylee`s death was an accident that snowballed out of control?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Excellent question.

Mike Brooks, we have heard that floating around for a while. We all know that he did at one point sort of half-heartedly attempt suicide or at least went to a hotel, took some pills perhaps or wrote a note. What do you make of it?

MIKE BROOKS, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes. There was a note; some beer was in a hotel in Daytona Beach, Florida. There`s a possibility because the defense could say, well, why did you do this? Were you that distraught? What were you distraught about? But he said, if I recall correctly, that he wanted to be with Caylee.

Again, the family is under so much pressure, Jane. And is there a possibility that he could call the woman who he allegedly had the affair with? Absolutely. She`s on the witness list. So, you know, there is a possibility they could bring her in.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So they are going to try to dirty George up some more.

And just the fact that pointing out that he had an alleged mistress, right there that could hurt him, could it not, Lisa Bloom? With jurors saying, well, if he`s cheating on his wife, maybe he`s capable of something else?

LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: Yes. I don`t know. I mean I hope the jurors wouldn`t conclude that. I get so tired of all the time we in America spend on people`s mistresses as if it`s some big, you know, revelation about their character.

But the bottom line is the defense, I think has to call George Anthony. They have to ask him a lot of questions that he has not yet answered because they want within the scope of the direction they want or allowed to ask when he was a prosecution witness.

I think they have to call him. They certainly have to talk about any statements that he made about Caylee`s death being an accident. I mean that`s front and center part of defense strategy. I think they have to do it. It`s desperation time for the defense right now.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Now, listen, the prosecution only asked one question, I believe, of George, did you ever molest your daughters or words to that effect, and he said no.

Are they going to go deeper into this Jeff Brown? Are they going to go deeper into -- is the defense going to say, when she was 8 years old, and she was about to go to school, did you go into her room and do x, y and z which I can`t even say on the air because it`s so graphic?

JEFF BROWN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, they`re going to try to.

Legally speaking they`re going to have a lot of roadblocks. One, it`s not relevant whether he had a suicide. That`s what the prosecution is going to argue that it`s not relevant. They`re going to need more than just the fact that he had a suicide.

To get into the sexual abuse, though, in Florida you can`t call a witness solely to impeach the witness. So in other words, they can`t call George simply to trash George. They can ask the question, did you sexually abuse her, and when he says no, they`re pretty much stuck with that answer.

Legally speaking they may not even be able to get the mistress in, because we call that a collateral matter in Florida. So they may very well be stuck with his answers.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Now, ironically through all this, the Anthonys seem to have been in some ways brought closer together by this nightmare.

Cindy, as we saw just the other day -- I think it was the day before yesterday, Tuesday -- mouthed "I love you" to Casey as she left the stand. This is to me the very definition of unconditional love, loving and supporting somebody who`s accusing your son and your husband of sexual molestation.


CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, I hope you`re able to hear me today. I love you, and I wish I could comfort you right now. I wish I could take away all of your pain and wipe away your tears.

L. ANTHONY: This family is united.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Dale Archer, you`re the psychiatrist. Casey is accusing her dad and brother, they guy you just saw there, the worst possible sexual acts and accusing her dad of discovering Caylee drowned in the family pool and is seemingly trying to connect George as well to, let`s see, the duct tape found over the child`s face. He`s denied it, but beyond that this family seems to support this young lady. How is that possible?

DR. DALE ARCHER, CLINICAL PSYCHIATRIST: Well, you have to understand that they`re really between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, they have lost their granddaughter, so that`s already done. On the other hand, they have a chance of losing their daughter as well.

So they want to believe her with all their heart and soul. They want to believe that she was not involved, and when you`re 50/50, you`re on the fence saying, I don`t know, you side with your daughter no matter what. So I think it has brought them closer together, even though they know she`s trying to throw them under the bus in order to save herself. And yet they`re still there for her, as most parents would be.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t get it, frankly. I know that a mother`s love, a father`s love is unconditional, but she has turned around and literally tried to -- it would seem destroy her family. So, I don`t understand how they can react with -- obviously privately they`re breaking down because our producer saw them in the elevator and Cindy was literally buckling in sadness.

Now another possible factor --

ARCHER: They`re being torn apart.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- yes, they`re being torn apart. We`ve been talking about motive. A little while ago we talked about how the prosecution hasn`t proved motive. Ok.

Let`s talk a little bit about Casey`s fractured relationship with her mom and how that might create some motive. Some have called Cindy a classic smother mother, very affectionate and loving to the point of enabling this young lady Casey to become a nightmare, a narcissistic diva. Some suspect that when the child little Caylee was born Cindy then redirected that love to that infant leaving Casey resentful and feeling abandoned and discarded.

Here is Casey`s ex-fiance Jesse Grund talking about their relationship.


JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: Lee, shortly after my second interview with Orange County confided in me that the reason that he thought -- Cindy confided in him that the reason he thought she felt that Casey ran off was there was a big fight between the two of them. The fight concerned Casey not being home more and not bringing Caylee by. They got into a very heated argument which turned physical and Cindy started choking Casey.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mike Brooks, briefly, should the prosecution have brought that in as motive?

BROOKS: You know they could have. They had an opportunity. There`s always the possibility, just wait, see what the defense has to do, and there`s always rebuttal Jane. So there`s that possibility because we heard Miss Drane-Burdick go towards that, the relationship between Cindy and Casey.

BLOOM: But Jane --

BROOKS: Could they be saving that for rebuttal? Possibly.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Briefly, Lisa.

BLOOM: You don`t need a motive when you have a --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, you do, when there`s a death penalty.


BLOOM: The baby was simply in her way. She has no conscience.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I disagree. I think for somebody to say I`m going to put this person to death, I think you need a motive.

BLOOM: But that`s because you`re projecting your own conscience onto her.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I`m saying it`s a possibility the jurors might feel that way.

Now Nancy Grace all over today`s --

BLOOM: She`s not like you. She has no conscience.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- crucial scientific testimony. She`s going to have the very latest developments. And as you can see we`re just getting started with a very healthy debate.



CASEY ANTHONY: I`m not going to give the media anything when I get out of here; sucks for them, because I have nothing to say. All I want is my kid back to be back with my family. That`s all I want, that`s all I`m asking.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow, note to self, Casey Anthony not going to give the media anything, and oh, yes, she wants her kid back. But these icy comments are so disturbing given what she has now claimed happened, that the child was already dead.

Today, three years ago today is the last day little Caylee was reportedly seen alive -- the day she vanished. Three years ago to the day today. And here are some of the rare final images of little Caylee as a happy toddler.

Debbie, New Hampshire, your question or thought Debbie.

DEBBIE, NEW HAMPSHIRE (via telephone): Yes, I just wanted to say -- I`m not saying she`s guilty or innocent because that`s hard, that`s up to the jury to make that decision. But when someone has been abused it`s very, very -- especially sexual abuse and I`m a survivor of sexual abuse when I was a child and as an adult.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you for having the courage to talk about that, but proceed.

DEBBIE: Thank you.

When someone goes through that, ok, and the authority figure is the person that did the abuse, they will do exactly what the authority figure tells them to do. They have that under their thumb in that respect. She would probably be showing signs of post-traumatic stress, she would lie, cheat, steal, do anything to put a world around her that can`t hurt her.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Interesting.

DEBBIE: That`s exactly what would occur. Now, to prove someone has that abuse, it`s usually the person`s say-so. The abuser will not admit the abuse. Her mother may have known nothing about it but be in denial.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok Debbie. I think you`ve made some really important points.

Dr. Dale Archer, I guess what this caller is saying is all her lying is an indication that she was perhaps abused. Maybe she`s not lying about that one thing.

ARCHER: No, I can`t agree with that. That is one possibility. There`s no doubt that sexual abuse can have different manifestations in different folks as they age.

On the one hand, you can have a complete dysfunctional individual who becomes a sociopath. Yes, that`s possible. On the other hand you can become totally depressed and withdrawn and not venture outside yourself at all. So you just can`t make that generalization in any way, shape or form.

And I`ve got to say that based on the entirety of this case, Casey Anthony does not present herself, in my mind, as a victim of sexual abuse. Her pathology is vastly different than that, and her pathology all serves a purpose. And that means it`s all about Casey and what`s in it for her, and what can I get out of it.

That does not ring --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: But how did she get that way? She wasn`t born that way. I don`t believe in the "bad seed theory".

ARCHER: Well, there is some evidence out there for the evil gene. But I will say that I think we tend to overstate the fact that every single person who grows up in a certain way it had to be because of their parents. I see dynamics here that are between her mom and her, and they are competitive in George`s attention and affection. And that`s not good and that`s not healthy.

But you know what; this also speaks to the potential motive which I strongly believe the prosecution should have brought up. And that is Casey was always the center of attention. She was a narcissist. Her parents -- everything in that family revolved around her.

When her little beautiful daughter was born, all of a sudden that attention was taken off her, focused on Caylee, leaving her out in the cold. I think that`s the motive.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I just said that.

BLOOM: Yes, but let`s not blame her parents.


BLOOM: Let`s not blame her parents for actions she did allegedly as an adult.

ARCHER: No, I didn`t blame the parents.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: One at a time.

BLOOM: I can`t stand that. The mother always gets blamed.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I agree with you.

Now here -- I want to talk about this. The entire time little Caylee was alive, Casey was living a lie. Each day Casey says I`m going to work. I`m dropping Caylee off with the nanny.

She didn`t have a job. She didn`t have a nanny. Casey meandered around for a couple of years with a little daughter in tow. Casey felt trapped into a life of lies, feeling basically that her daughter was holding her back.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mike Brooks, I really feel the prosecution has to bring the psychological element, because that`s why I think if she killed her daughter, that`s why she did it. She was living a lie and she got trapped in that lie and she couldn`t continue living the lie. But she also, because she resented her mother so much, couldn`t say I have no job, take care of the kid.

BROOKS: Well, yes. Hey, this is Dr. Dale`s bailiwick but I`m telling you, the defense is saying that it`s because of abuse. Now, the defense they had a psychiatrist and a psychologist. They`re not going to be able to be brought in unit the penalty phase to talk about her state of mind and consciousness of guilt. But what was her state of mind? We don`t know who the real Casey Anthony is.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: More on the other side.



LINDA DRANE-BURDICK, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: Investigator Welch, would it be fair to characterize the area where Caylee Marie Anthony`s remains were discarded a trash dump?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, that`s what I would classify it as.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Prosecutor Linda Drane-Burdick scored that zinger today while cross examining a CSI witness; pointing out Caylee`s remains were thrown in an area that`s kind of like a trash dump.

Michael Christian, you`re in court, what was the impact of that? The significance?

CHRISTIAN: Well, you know, it`s devastating when you think about it, because this child was just dumped in this literally, trash ground. It`s like taking your child to the garbage dump and throwing them away. So it has a psychological impact on the jury.

But I have to say, you know, the prosecution didn`t seem particularly phased by any of this stuff today. They didn`t even cross examine some of these witnesses. So, if they did, they were one question things like we just saw. There wasn`t a lot of cross-examination. They don`t think that the defense has done anything to hurt them yet.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I think we had Lori from Tennessee? Your question or thought Lori.

LORI, TENNESSEE (via telephone): Hi, Jane, I just wanted to say -- tell Cindy Anthony, I don`t know if she watches your show -- but thank you very much for everything that she`s done. Because of this case I took my grandchild away from my daughter because I watched Casey on those jailhouse tapes and everything. And I swear my daughter could be her twin.


LORI: Honestly, and I did not raise her that way.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What happened, when did it start? Puberty?

LORI: Yes, when she was about 12, she just started lying, and you just can`t believe anything that she says -- anything. I`m talking the job, everything. Everything -- except for killing her children.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You actually took your granddaughter -- your grandchild away from your daughter because of this case, because this was a cautionary tale for you?

LORI: Yes, I did.


LORI: Yes, I did.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lisa Bloom, that is powerful.

BLOOM: Yes, but good for you, because we have to recognize that about 1 in 25 people are sociopaths, which means they have no conscience, they will lie, cheat, steal and do whatever is in their own self interest. They have no attachment, no compassion for other people.

And we have to wake up to this reality. Our jails are filled with these people, and they exist out in the world amongst us.


BLOOM: -- that Casey Anthony is like. If somebody in your family is like that you have to protect little children from them.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree. I also think it`s a commentary. Casey Anthony is a metaphor for our culture today. I`m sounding old now, like some old fogey. But I have to say that kids talk to parents today. If I spoke to my dad for one second the way kids talk to their parents today, I think the world would have collapsed on my head.

BROOKS: Absolutely.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I think it is a metaphor for how we are enabling our children. And so I`ll give you the last word, Mike, on that.

BROOKS: No, I think you`re right. And as a law enforcement officer, I saw that all the time. And I -- you see a bad kid, you go home, you see parents that don`t give a damn. That`s the problem with this country right now. The parents don`t care. We have latch key kids, give them what they want, give them their video games and that`s what they think makes them happy.

It`s love that makes them happy, Jane. A lot of parents aren`t capable of that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Or they love so much that they give their kids everything.

BROOKS: And that`s not love.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: They don`t exhibit the tough love that some kids need, so when they get to puberty they don`t go crazy.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Clinical psychiatrist Dr. Dale Archer, is Casey Anthony a metaphor for what`s wrong in our culture?

ARCHER: Absolutely Jane. A recent study shows that empathy after the year 2000 has dropped 40 percent in America, and it`s been replaced by narcissism. Casey is the ultimate narcissist, she wants what she wants when she wants it, and she will do whatever it takes to get it. No doubt about it, it`s a big problem. It`s an epidemic of narcissism that we`re having in our culture.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I think it dovetails with an epidemic of materialism. Because if we teach kids to value things and value status, then we`re not going to allow them as Jiminy Cricket said, to let their conscience be their guide any more.

ARCHER: Right, it`s consumerism, materialism, and also, parents thinking that by giving material goods to their children, they`re being a good parent.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But yet, we`re not attacking Cindy, she is a victim here.

"Nancy Grace" up next.