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Day 21 in Casey Anthony Trial

Aired June 17, 2011 - 21:00   ET


DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go now.

It`s day 21 in the Casey Anthony murder trial. Testy testimony. Prosecutors shoot down a defense expert witness.

I`m asking, did Baez` strategy backfire?

And yesterday, I asked if this guy was just a defense distraction. Today, I have the answer and some new questions.

Plus, slugging it out for seats. Really? What`s going on here? We`ve got to figure this out.

What happened outside the Casey Anthony courtroom today might have been more provocative than the actual trial itself.

Watch this and then we`ll talk.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Day 21 in the Casey Anthony murder trial.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Timothy Huntington, a bug expert, an entomologist --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He says if a body was in that trunk, you would have seen blow flies.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would have expected to find hundreds, thousands.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then he veers off a little bit.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The decompositional fluid will reach into the carpet.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The prosecution is saying, wait a minute, he`s a bug guy, he`s not an expert in decompositional fluid.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: More action though outside of the courtroom.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re brawling. And there`s the ladies coming with the overhand rights.

RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION," TRUTV: Inside the courtroom, different kind of fighting.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sorry. I will wait. Counsel is busy texting.

JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, NINTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT: I am not going to say this ever again. I do not care if Mr. Baez is standing on his head, on one leg. Be professional.


PINSKY: There you go. A woman is being tried for murdering her own child. This is heavy stuff.

Now, listen. Sometimes in this room we try to lighten it up a little bit, joking, trying to make light of things, because it`s a heavy topic to talk about day in and day out.

But come on now. Fighting for a seat in the courtroom? Is this the way to behave when there is life and death at stake?

Now, an eyewitness to this melee is going to join me a little later, but I for one am outraged, unhappy, disappointed. I guess disappointed is the word. I`m disappointed.

I mean, yes, it`s fine that people get excited about this case. It`s fine to joke a little bit. But violence, really?

It`s day 21 of the Casey Anthony murder trial. And as you just saw, fists actually flew outside the courtroom.

Inside, an outraged prosecutor lashes out over the qualifications of a defense witness, and the defense`s surprise witness, so-called, the convicted felon, speaks out.

Joining me to talk about these issues are attorney Debra Opri. Also, I have Loni Coombs. She is a former criminal prosecutor. And, of course, host of "In Session" on truTV, Ryan Smith.

All right. First, let`s take another look at this morning`s brawl outside the courtroom. Watch this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let him go! Let him go! Let him go!


PINSKY: How old are you guys and who is going to see this courtroom drama? Who is it?

Now, Ryan, fists were flying. What happened?

SMITH: Oh, Dr. Drew, this happened maybe 5:00, 6:00 this morning. A lot of people had been in line for hours since the night before. And two people tried to cut the line.

Now, what`s stunning is they couldn`t work it out, because that`s when the fists started flying. I went over about 8:00 or so to talk to some of the people out there. They said somebody was hitting another person with a water bottle. It just got out of control.

And the problem is, there is about 100 or so people in line, only about 50 or so seats in the courtroom. So, people, they want to get in, and they are willing to do anything to get in.

Now, the good thing, Dr. Drew is, everybody told me that they were safe. No one was hurt. But they started now a new system where every day at 4:00, you stand in line. They give you a number. And then you come back the next day.

And if you have that number and your I.D., you can get into court. So the police are really trying to crack down. And the key is to make sure everybody is safe and we don`t have a situation like this again.

PINSKY: So my Sharpie lady, her daughter, and Barney Fife, failed in their attempts to create civilization out of chaos. It`s shocking.

I heard that some of the security officers were actually fearful of this crowd and were actually staying out of it. They didn`t have the right riot equipment.

All right. Enough of that.

SMITH: They were kind of backing up. Yes.

PINSKY: That`s what I heard.

All right. Let`s talk about something else.

Let`s talk about the shocking move this week. The defense added the name Vasco Thompson to its potential witness list. Now, he is a convicted felon charged with kidnapping in 1988.

The defense says George Anthony called Vasco four times just one day before Caylee was reported missing. Here is what Vasco said today about that allegation.


VASCO THOMPSON, WITNESS: I have no idea who George Anthony is. I just met him -- seen him on TV.

I never talked to George Anthony. Like I said, don`t know him.

And the phone number they got in question, I didn`t have that phone number until February of `09. And I don`t know why they got me involved in all this mess. And that`s all I have to say about it.


PINSKY: I feel actually bad for Vasco.

Debra, what`s going on there?

DEBRA OPRI, ATTORNEY: Well, let me tell you something. If I were an attorney, and I put him on a surprise list, I think I would have had a conversation with him first. This is only a reflection on Mr. Baez. And he should be ashamed of himself, because this hit him square in the face today. And I like his sunglasses.


PINSKY: Well, you were saying that you generally don`t like the lack of professionalism on the defense side.

OPRI: I`m perturbed about it. I mean, let everyone know that you have a source of conduct in a courtroom. You don`t act like these two gentlemen are acting.

Now, I understand the prosecutor. Mr. Ashton is a fine attorney. And he is angry because that bumper action of Mr. Baez, I mean, he is really pushing the envelope.

And the judge is allowing things which I personally think should not be allowed. Specifically, the witness was a bug guy, an entomologist.

PINSKY: Well, let`s talk about that now. We`re going to talk about that now, about the stains on a paper towel. Apparently, they contain evidence of a decomposing body, and this is from Casey Anthony`s car trunk.

The defense said their witness could prove no, but an outraged prosecution argued that the witness wasn`t even qualified to testify. And then they accused Jose Baez of texting during the testimony.

Judge Perry had to step in. Watch this.


PERRY: Go to page 28 of the deposition, both of you. I do not care if Mr. Baez is standing on his head, standing on one leg.

So, folks, please, let`s just stick with the facts and be professional.


PINSKY: Loni, that seems to be what`s at issue, right, the professionalism, the conduct of the attorneys?


PINSKY: Are they stepping outside the box of professionalism?

COOMBS: You know, a little bit. And it`s hard.

I agree, I think the prosecutors in this case are very professional. They are experienced. I think they are doing a great job.

Mr. Baez is another issue. And he likes to just sort of throw things up on the wall and watch how everybody responds.

OPRI: What sticks.

COOMBS: That`s exactly right. And he doesn`t really think about what it`s going to do.

I think the judge is doing a good job because he stays controlled, he steps in when he needs to. It`s very clear who is in charge of that courtroom.

But Mr. Baez is a handful. And, you know, keeping him in control -- there is another thing, too. They are trying to protect the sanctity of the case, so --

OPRI: Who, the judge?


OPRI: We are finished today. Thank you for your participation.

PINSKY: Well, he`s trying.

OPRI: I`m only kidding. He`s doing a fantastic job.

COOMBS: He`s doing a great job. And he needs to watch the record, but he has to let Mr. Baez also present his case.

PINSKY: Ryan, let me go out to you. I`ve got about 40 seconds or so.

But has the people -- the folks that ended up in the courtroom today after that brawl, has that changed the tone in the courtroom itself?

SMITH: No, not at all. Not at all.

Everybody gets in that courtroom and they are relatively quiet. But I will tell you this -- because some people have been there since the night before, there were a lot of people kicked out in the morning for falling asleep.

Now, I don`t know if that`s because they were up all night or if it was because the testimony was going so long this morning about the bugs and things like that, but people were having trouble staying focused. But everybody is staying orderly. And that`s the key.

PINSKY: But these weren`t jurors falling asleep, right? These were just sort of courtroom observers.

SMITH: No, not jurors following asleep. They are still focusing.

PINSKY: All right. Fair enough.

OPRI: These are televised proceedings. Huh?

PINSKY: I get you. And we`re still talking about it.

Thank you, Ryan, Loni, Debra.

We`ll be back. They`ll be back with us.

But, up next, I`ve got George Anthony`s 911 call. You`re going to hear the call and find out why he made it when I come back.

And later, a mother who knows what it`s like to lose a child. We`re going to talk to her about the murder of her daughter at the hands of a sex offender.

Stay with us.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It says, "To Caylee. You are a little angel. I love you, Caylee."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s beautiful.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And it`s hearts on there.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t even know her. And they`re like, "Why do you love her?" And I`m just -- I love the little girl. I don`t even know her and I love her.

It comes from a mom. That`s why. I`m a mom of two and I know. You know, things like this is like -- only a monster could do something like this.


PINSKY: These are the kinds of feelings that are being evoked by the Casey Anthony trial, "Only a monster could do something like this." Those words from an emotional mom talking to In Session`s Ryan Smith, our Ryan Smith, about the death of 2-year-old Caylee Anthony.

I`m back with attorney Debra Opri, and Loni Coombs, a former prosecutor.

All right, Loni. You`re a mom. Take off your attorney hat for a second. And can you tell me how this is affecting you as a woman and as a mom, this trial, this case?

COOMBS: Absolutely. You know, it`s interesting. I had my son when I was 19 years old, so I do see some of the perspective of Caylee Anthony, being a young mom --

PINSKY: A teen mom.

COOMBS: -- being a teen mom, being immature, having your life ahead of you kind of changed once you have that baby. But the person I relate to is Cindy Anthony, because I also have a step grandson.

And I`ll tell you, I`m mad at Cindy. I understand her stepping up and standing by Casey and loving Casey, but I also feel like, who is watching out for Caylee? Who is thinking of Caylee? And who put Caylee first during all of this?

OPRI: That`s supposed to be the mother.

COOMBS: That`s right. That`s exactly right.

OPRI: It`s supposed to be the mother. Casey had very bad parenting skills. Did she ever go to school for it?

COOMBS: But here is the problem. I think that Casey was indulged.

PINSKY: By George and Cindy?

COOMBS: Yes, exactly. And I think that perhaps we would never have gotten to this place if she had not been indulged as much by her parents.

OPRI: So a bad mother, and she wasn`t properly taught. Society needs to do that.

PINSKY: But what I do hear from --

COOMBS: That`s right, but so do parents.

PINSKY: Listen, guys. What I do hear from some of our viewers is, George and Cindy are duplicitous because they contributed to who Casey was.

OPRI: Duplicitous for letting her live there with her child and caring -- providing care for the child?

PINSKY: Well, listen, the sense of helping create who she is as a mother and as a person. I don`t have --

OPRI: You have two children. One is a murderer and one is a good person. Is it your fault?

PINSKY: Well, it`s a fascinating question. But I`m not saying I do. I`m saying people do it, Loni is bringing this point.

And you`re right. Listen, I want to see a CAT scan of Casey`s head. I think there could be something deeper biologically going on here.

OPRI: Well, soon you may get it.

COOMBS: But I think you need to teach your kids, self-gratification isn`t the only point. You can`t be out partying every night when you have a child.

OPRI: Our society teaches self-gratification with everything -- quick, quick, quick.

COOMBS: But parents need to step in and say, that`s not right.

PINSKY: Completely agree with you guys.

Let me ask you another question about Casey. Taking the stand, yes or no, Loni?



COOMBS: She is. Yes, she is.

PINSKY: Debra, yes or no?

OPRI: No, she is not taking the stand.


OPRI: She can`t.


OPRI: She has no credibility. Here is the nanny. I had a job.

COOMBS: We all know she is a liar. She can only go up from where she is.

PINSKY: That`s the only thing we know about her. Lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, that`s her.

COOMBS: Right.

OPRI: She will bury herself and get the death penalty if she takes the stand.

PINSKY: Why do you say yes?

OPRI: Don`t do it. Don`t do it, Casey.

COOMBS: If she gets on the stand, she becomes a person. We are a forgiving society. We put people up all the time that have made mistakes. And once we see them as a real person on a reality show, or whatever, oh, there is something to her.

OPRI: Her attorney better say no.

COOMBS: Her attorney? No, that`s the whole point. Her attorney, that`s what we see. He throws things up on the wall.

OPRI: He is not throwing her to the wolves.

COOMBS: He`s putting her on the stand.

PINSKY: Let me ask you this -- whether she does or not, I like asking all my new members of this team here. Do you think she did it? And if she did it, intentional or accident?

OPRI: I am a person who believes in due process. I am not going to render a guilty verdict. I think the evidence is overwhelming that that child died by someone`s hands.

PINSKY: OK. That child. Accident or otherwise?

OPRI: Thirty-one days, chloroform, Duct tape, smelling in the trunk.

PINSKY: Got it.

Loni, same thing?

COOMBS: Common sense. Who did it?

OPRI: Who else would have done it?

COOMBS: Exactly.

PINSKY: So the other question is, is she acquitted or convicted?

COOMBS: Convicted.

OPRI: She`s going to be convicted.

PINSKY: Convicted.

OPRI: But will the jury give her the death penalty? I don`t think so.

COOMBS: No. No death penalty.

PINSKY: We`re going to have a big dinner. Whoever picks acquitted is going to have to pay for the guilt and --


OPRI: But I`m going to win, so I eat.

PINSKY: I have to put an Excel sheet together to find out who voted for what.

COOMBS: I`m going to say (ph) that she is taking the stand.

PINSKY: All right.

Earlier this week, George Anthony called 911 to report that someone was trespassing on his property.

Listen to this.


GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: Yes, ma`am. And I`m calling in regards to a gentlemen who is out in front of my house. And per my attorney, he advised me to call the sheriff`s department ASAP to report this gentleman who is not supposed to be anywhere near our home.


PINSKY: Poor George knows that every word he is saying is being scrutinized now.


PINSKY: Well, and recorded, right. Well, that gentleman he was referring to was our own Leonard Padilla. He is the bounty hunter who bailed Casey out of jail when she was initially arrested in 2008.

Now, yesterday, Padilla addressed the trespassing allegation on this show. Watch.


LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: The car picked me up at the airport, and they said, "We`re going right out to the location." And I said, "Do you have the address?" And they said, "Yes."

And I said, "No, no, no. That`s the Anthony`s residence. We don`t want to go there."

We make the corner, and there is the camera people and everything. I said, "This is not a good idea."


PINSKY: What`s he doing? He is trying to show --

OPRI: He is laying the foundation that, I had no intent to trespass, the media took me there.

COOMBS: That`s right. I had no idea. I didn`t want to go there.

OPRI: It wasn`t me.

COOMBS: It just happened there.

PINSKY: All right. I want to get this next thing up here.

Here, also, there was a heated exchange between Mark Eiglarsh and Leonard right here on this show. Watch this one.


PINSKY: You told me off air just a second ago -- I don`t know if you can talk about this or not, but you said that law enforcement had some knowledge about where that body was. Explain that to me.

PADILLA: I am firmly convinced that because Kronk (ph) himself stated that his girlfriend who works at the jail had given him the information as to where the body was back in August --

MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I can`t believe you are coming out and saying that law enforcement actually knew. As everybody is frantically looking for this child, as they are trying to build a case against Casey Anthony, yet they knew where the body was located and sat back and didn`t do anything? Is that your position?


PINSKY: That was his position.


PINSKY: Ladies?

OPRI: Say it ain`t so, Leonard. Say it ain`t so. If I was the attorney, I would have been, get me out of here.

COOMBS: Which he was. Poor Mark was trying to get him under control, but he is a loose cannon.

OPRI: He should have said, "Cut the mike. Cut the mike."


OPRI: What, is he trying to be a witness in this high-profile case so he can do the movie of the week? I don`t know.

COOMBS: That`s what`s happening, yes.

PINSKY: You think so?


COOMBS: The stuff he is starting to say, people are going to start following up on.

OPRI: Leonard -- poor Leonard.

PINSKY: But what`s interesting about Leonard, first of all, he just talks.

OPRI: He says a lot of damaging things, don`t you think?

PINSKY: But we`re not a courtroom here. We are just trying to figure out what the reality is, what the truth is.

OPRI: Have you ever heard of slander and defamation?

PINSKY: Well, we`re not intending to harm anybody.

OPRI: Not you.

PINSKY: We`re just trying to figure this thing out. I`ve been saying it here. You know?

COOMBS: The prosecution did not put him on their witness list, so I think they`ve decided whatever he has to say, we don`t want him in the courtroom.

PINSKY: That tells you something, yes.

OPRI: But he was interviewed by the FBI and law enforcement.

COOMBS: That`s right, for a long time.

OPRI: I like Leonard. He makes a good TV guest.


COOMBS: That`s a whole different situation.

PINSKY: It is a different situation.

But the fact is, we`re not a court of law. We are trying to understand what really happened here.

As my defense attorneys that I have in this show often remind me, is that truth is not important, it`s proven or not proven. I am kind of interested in the truth. And so I think there is more to be told than what we`re going to hear.

OPRI: Get a jury consultant in.

PINSKY: We had one.

OPRI: He will tell you exactly what is important. The color of the defense counsel`s eyes and how the defendant is dressed. It`s the silly little stupid things like that.

COOMBS: I hope that it`s more than that.

PINSKY: Again, I`m just going to tell you, by the end of every half hour, my stomach is going and churning around.

OPRI: Well, the bug man didn`t do anybody any service. I think the prosecution did well today.

COOMBS: Masterful.

OPRI: Yes. And the conduct of the attorneys with each other, I think they should just knock it off and stay with the evidence. I agreed with Judge Perry.

PINSKY: Last word, 10 seconds. You thought it was masterful what the prosecutor did today?

COOMBS: Absolutely. I thought the way he pieced together -- cross- examination is a very hard skill, and he did it wonderfully.


Debra, thank you.

OPRI: Thank you.

PINSKY: Loni, we will be back with you here shortly.

Coming up, you the viewers are really on fire over this case. I`m going to take your calls.

And later, a mom whose kid was kidnapped and tragically killed. What does she think about the Casey Anthony case?

Back with more after this.


MARK LIPPMAN, ANTHONY FAMILY LAWYER: There was just comment from Mr. Thompson`s attorney basically verifying everything that we already knew to be true, that my client, Mr. George Anthony, never met this person, never had any dealings with this person, and certainly never called him on July 14th.


PINSKY: So sad. We have made it through yet another interesting week of the Casey Anthony murder trial.

Now, my Twitter, e-mail and Facebook accounts have been blowing up with your theories about the trial. Let`s start off with a phone call.

Here`s Rececca from Orlando.


PINSKY: Hi, Rebecca.

REBECCA: Thank you for taking my call.


REBECCA: My question is with regards to Casey Anthony and family dysfunction. Why don`t we see a glimmer of that dysfunction in her brother, Lee? How do you think he escaped it?

PINSKY: Well, it`s an interesting question. And it`s why -- when you try to figure out why a particular individual is the way they are, and you try to lay that blame at the feet of parents, you really do create another victim, don`t you? The parents.

And many times there are other factors that come to bear -- genetic factors, maybe head injuries, other traumatic experiences maybe with peers or growing up. But the parents really have no control over it.

Sure, they contribute because they`re the parents, but to lay blame at the feet of parents, this really goes right to the core of that issue. You can`t. You shouldn`t.

It`s about a dynamic impact that a certain parent has on a certain biological individual. And in this case, it didn`t turn out so good. In Lee`s case, fine.

All right. Let`s hit the streets. One of our viewers here in Hollywood has a question. Let`s go.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, Dr. Drew. The one question I had following this is, she seems to have a kind of flat affect, a total blank stare. And I wanted to see what you thought about that.


PINSKY: Well, it`s something we have been talking about a bit on this show. And it is that flatness, that complete seeming lack of emotionality, that has some people speculating that she is disassociating, which is a biological event where people sort of disconnect from their body and feel like they are floating in the room and are completely disconnected from their feelings, versus being coached to can look like that, in which case we are all sort of projecting our own sort of impressions of her upon a blank slate, versus psychopathy or sociopathy, where she really isn`t having any feelings about this, which I know a lot of you feel is the case.

We`ve got another man on the street question. Let`s listen.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If Casey is acquitted, do you think she will go back to her old way of life?


PINSKY: Yes, I do. You know, the people that have lots of dysfunctional behaviors, let`s say, really don`t change unless they get treatment, typically. They don`t.

And I see no evidence that Casey is interested in that kind of thing. And, by the way, real sociopaths and psychopaths don`t really respond to treatment. So, of course, she will go back to many of those same old ways.

Back to the phones. Diana is in Illinois.

Diana, what`s on your mind?


PINSKY: Diana.

DIANA: I know that help is available for people who have mental illness such as medication therapy treatment to help manage the symptoms. But are there any treatments that are targeted at helping sociopaths and psychopaths?

PINSKY: Well, and you`re asking a very complicated question. There are people that try to treat these things.

I can tell you, in my world, when psychopaths and sociopaths -- not psychopaths. Not treatable, generally speaking.

Sociopaths, when they get addiction, find motivation to change because their lives depends upon it -- and I do see sociopaths changing in 12-step context and in intensive therapy. So that`s where I have seen it.

OK now. Let`s say you`re a mother and your child is kidnapped, Casey`s original claim. Would you behave the way she did, seemingly detached?

Well, next, I`m talking to a mother who lived the nightmare and lost her child. We`re going to see how she reacted and ask her what she thinks of Casey Anthony and her behavior. There she is right now.



PINSKY (voice-over): Casey`s fate, day 21. Inside the courtroom, the defense continued its attack on the forensic evidence against Casey Anthony. The state, in turn, took the witness apart. A few observers were booted for sleeping. In contrast to the early morning dust-up outside, a fight broke out in the line for seat when someone apparently tried to cut ahead of the others. And what about that surprise defense witness, the one with the supposed link to Casey`s dad?

VASCO THOMPSON, "SURPRISE" DEFENSE WITNESS: I have no idea who George Anthony is. I never talked to George Anthony.

VOICE OF CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Casey said nanny took her a month ago. She has been missing for a month.


PINSKY (on-camera): My next guest is Diena Thompson, and she has been to hell and back. Her adorable seven-year-old daughter, Somer, was abducted while walking home from school in 2009. Dina`s heartbreaking pleas to bring her daughter home made headlines. Take a look.


DIENA THOMPSON, DAUGHTER WAS KILLED BY A SEX OFFENDER: I love you and I just want you to come home. I just want you to come home. Just drop her off somewhere. I don`t care if you ever get in trouble. I just want my baby back. She`s got a twin and he is lost without her. Just bring her back. OK? Safe and sound.


PINSKY: It just takes your breath away. I mean, that is how I would expect a normal mom to react to the news that a child is missing. Not like this.


CASEY ANTHONY, JAILHOUSE PHONE CALL: I`m not going to give the media anything when I get out of here. It sucks for them, because I have nothing to say. All I want is my kid back, to be back with my family. That`s all I want. That`s all I`m asking.


PINSKY: I want my kid back who I know is no longer on this planet. Former prosecutor, Loni Coombs, is back with me and Diena Thompson is, of course, with us now from Florida. Diena, can you imagine reacting the way Casey Anthony has been reacting? I mean, you have had a chance to look at her. What are your feelings?

THOMPSON: My feelings are that she probably knows exactly what happened to her baby. I want to say that I believe that her parents are great people. I`ve met them, and I have absolutely - I`m just sickened by the fact that she blames it on everyone except for herself.

PINSKY: Loni, you`re a mom, too. OK. I watched -- I can`t -- I don`t know why -- Diena, I`m sorry. That footage of you is just absolutely breathtaking. I`m so sorry you went through that. It`s hard to think about, but it is hard to think about as a mom.

THOMPSON: It is. Absolutely.

PINSKY: You`ve been a prosecutor and you are a mom. Your take? You know, I`m not saying that everyone has to react the way Diena did, but --

LONI COOMBS, FMR. CRIMINAL PROSECUTOR: Right. But I think anyone of us who`s a parent, if we imagine that most horrific thing happening, that is how we would feel, the way Diena was responding, that is how we would emote and how we would just -- the anguish would be overwhelming. And I have great sympathy for Cindy and George.

And when you see Cindy on the stand showing that emotion, that`s what the kind of emotion you would expect from someone who loved their child, and what happened to them, and how could this horrific thing happened. As opposed to Casey, who all she`s still thinking about is herself and lying about that her child is still out there somewhere, and we`re going to find them. I mean, it`s a very different scenario.

PINSKY: And even when her lies are uncovered, she seems to have no remorse, no explanation, no nothing.

COOMBS: No. It is shocking that she has such confidence, whatever she is saying that people are going to buy it. And then, when -- like the police, when they took her and said, look, and confronted her with the lies, she`s like, OK, so what, next lie, moving on. I mean, she has, so far -- I haven`t found one redeeming aspect in her character in any of this.

PINSKY: That`s why if she takes the witness stand, there`s great liability, I assume, but you think she should take the stand, nonetheless.

COOMBS: She can only get better on the stand. I think we can only find something likeable because right now, I don`t see anything likeable.

PINSKY: All right. Diena, help us understand these kinds of situations. I mean, you`ve been a mom who has -- well, let me ask you differently. Are you watching the Casey Anthony case?

THOMPSON: I`m watching it some. I`m not letting it consume my life like I`m sure others are. I want to see it more for my -- what do I have to look forward to and look forward to wouldn`t be the right words to use but what`s coming in my future as far as what the defense will try to say. I`m watching it more for my benefit, not because I believe any different than what I`ve believed since I`ve heard about the story.

PINSKY: Yes. So, let me go to you, that`s what I want to ask is if we assume that Casey is a perpetrator and God knows perpetrators have had this massive effect on your family`s life, what are your feelings about this case and what can you teach us about the people that harm children?

THOMPSON: Anyone who harms a child, I sit and try to think all the time about how someone could take the life out of my 7-year-old twin daughter and watch it slip away from her and still sleep with themselves at night and eat and do all of this, because I still, to this day, almost 21 months later, am still battling with that myself.

As far as Casey Anthony is concerned, I mean, you know, I don`t want to be her judge, jury, and executioner. However, I really do feel like she knows exactly what happened. It may not have been on purpose but, nonetheless, she should have stood up. You know, she made her bed. Now, she should lie in it.

PINSKY: Do you feel --

THOMPSON: And lie if she does.

PINSKY: Yes. We`re looking at pictures of your daughter alongside of you there. She`s so, so beautiful. Do you think like some do that Cindy and George had a role to play in creating a Casey Anthony, and as such, have some feelings about them?

THOMPSON: You know, I`m not going to sit here and blame, you know, someone`s parents for how they turned out. We all have free will. We all get to decide. She is a grown woman. She would rather go out and party and have a good time with her friends than take care of her baby, and I think that`s all it boils down to.

I would not blame George and Cindy Anthony. Maybe, she was spoiled. I didn`t know them before this. I know them now, unfortunately, but I just think that she was spoiled, and she is good at lying. She is good at her craft.

PINSKY: Diena, I appreciate you sharing your story and I appreciate the fact that you are going out and trying to make a difference on this what is really kind of an epidemic along in our country which is not just over crimes on children but people perpetrating on children in various ways, whether it`s abandonment, physical abuse, sexual abase, it`s massive. We have about 30 seconds left.

COOMBS: It really is. And I think that if there is a positive out of all the media attention on this, you know, there`s pros and cons, but I think we all need to be aware of the children victims all in our society from all different types of crimes, and we all need to step up and watch out for them and help take care of them.

And we all have that responsibility no matter what situation we`re in, to be able to -- these kids can`t speak up for themselves. They can`t help themselves.

PINSKY: Not only can they not speak up for themselves. What happens to children is they believe they`re responsible for whatever happens to them.

COOMBS: That`s right.

PINSKY: That`s a normal thought process for children.

COOMBS: That`s right.

PINSKY: And these things, hitting children with objects, exploiting them in any way, changes how their brain develops. If you out there would like to help out, Diena has a website. It`s Is that right?

THOMPSON: No, it`s somerthompson --





PINSKY: Thank you, Diena and thank you, Loni.

THOMPSON: Thanks so much, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Coming up next, hair, bugs, chloroform, have we had enough of this stuff? What does all this evidence really tell us? Is there enough to sentence Casey to death? We`ll break it down with a medical examiner who`s going to join us, so you stay with us.


CINDY ANTHONY: I would think that anybody around her knew her, they would have come forward by now.

CASEY ANTHONY: That`s what I`m thinking. That`s even what I had told Jose. if It was anyone that especially has known me and knows Caylee, at least knows of us.

CINDY ANTHONY: Did anybody ask you to describe her and they did a composite drawing of her?


CINDY ANTHONY: Well, they told us that you couldn`t pull her out of a lineup.




TIMOTHY HUNTINGTON, FORENSIC ENTOMOLOGY CONSULTANT: The maggots themselves don`t feed well on dry material. If you have a piece of fresh meat versus a piece of beef jerky, it`s the same sort of thing. You don`t expect to see maggots on beef jerky because it`s too dry. They don`t feed on it at all.


PINSKY: I don`t know. This guy did not cut through to me the way the other entomologist did. OK. Well, there is more evidence today. Another bug expert takes the stand, this gentlemen you just saw. He says the insects found in Casey`s car do not prove a dead body was in the trunk. I want to break down these facts, coffin flies, cans filled with what`s being called death air, more on chloroform, hair. What does this all mean? Is there enough physical evidence to sentence Casey Anthony to death?

Joining me now is medical examiner, Daniel Spitz, and still with me is former prosecutor, Loni Coombs. She`s back on the set with me. Dr. Spitz, could a certain type of bug prove a dead body was in that car?

DR. DANIEL SPITZ, MEDICAL EXAMINER: No, I don`t think a certain type of bug could make that proof, but it`s not just that. It`s the totality of the evidence, and we have more than just bugs. We have the smell that`s been associated with this. We have the chloroform. So, while we heard eight hours of testimony about bugs today, that is just one piece of the puzzle. It certainly doesn`t tell the whole story.

PINSKY: And Loni, I want you to ask -- that guy, the entomologist was on the stand, again, the one for the prosecution cut through to me. I mean, somehow, his testimony was like moving. This guy, I didn`t buy. And the prosecution said, he wasn`t qualified or had never done court testimony before, expert witness testimony. Sometimes, that`s a good thing, because some of these guys are hired hands, right? They`re hired guns. So, this guy is sort of a novice. That could cut either way.

COOMBS: It can cut either way, and it`s amazing how much the jury actually looks at that. You know, attorneys sometimes get caught up and here are the facts and that`s all it is. Jurors are looking and saying, do I believe this guy? Does he carry the weight of wisdom and experience for me to believe him? Or might begin, maybe, that lack of experience is carrying over to his opinion.

PINSKY: Or is he just a hired gun that`s getting paid --

COOMBS: Exactly.

PINSKY: And say whatever the prosecution wants him to say.

COOMBS: That`s right. The ones that sit back and look so slick and polished. And like, oh, he`s just going to say whatever the script says, right?

PINSKY: It`s stunning to me as a medical person watching some testimony that is just outlandish and people say with great conviction in the courtroom. Dr. Spitz, I have a question about the hair. All right. If Casey was drugging Caylee, wouldn`t the hair be a source of information about -- my theory, Xanax or chloroform? Wouldn`t that be a possibility?

SPITZ: It would. The hair could be tested and it would be more indicative of a chronic exposure. If this was a one-time thing, then you wouldn`t expect the hair to show any type of value in regard to the testing for Xanax or anything else, really. So, hair testing is good for chronic exposures to certain drugs, but it wouldn`t tell you much about an acute exposure.

PINSKY: Well, it`s my theory that Zani the nanny was, I don`t know, but my little pet theory is that Zani the nanny may have been Xanax that she was using to sedate the child a little bit, and that`s an expensive medication, and when she ran out of money, switched over to chloroform which she could manufacture for pennies. Did anybody test for this stuff, do you think? Dr. Spitz?

SPITZ: Oh, you know, I don`t think they did testing for it, unfortunately. I think it could have potentially answered some questions. But again, if she`s being given Xanax over a long period of time, you would expect it to be identified in the hair samples, but if this was a one-time thing with Xanax or chloroform exposure, it really wouldn`t answer any questions about whether it was used.

PINSKY: All right. Loni, why in the world did they not test? Come on. That`s ridiculous to me. That`s absurd. They should have tested --

COOMBS: They should have tested. Any time they develop somewhat of a theory, for example, when they asked that the paternity test be done, that doesn`t necessarily mean that investigators think there was some sexual abuse, they`re just wiping out all the possibilities, and that`s what they should have done with that test.

But there`s something else that your audience needs to remember about scientific evidence. You know, we`ve all been raised on CSI and we see, oh, here`s the answer, and it`s black and white. This means he`s guilty. Scientific evidence isn`t like that. When we see this fact, it could be and it could mean this, but it could also mean that. That`s the reality of scientific evidence like this, physical evidence that the jury gets. And so, they still have to weigh what they believe to be true, which expert they trust.

PINSKY: I don`t know. If they found evidence of alprazolam which is Xanax in this child`s hair, there is no other reason that she should be exposed to that than somebody handing it to her. Not a pediatric medication --

COOMBS: But, even if it wasn`t there doesn`t mean that she wasn`t being given it, because maybe just didn`t show up in the hair.

PINSKY: Right. Right. OK. All right. Dr. Spitz, let me ask you this. What should they be looking for in that trunk?

SPITZ: Well, obviously, anything to indicate that a deceased individual was there and decompositional fluids, any type of biomaterial, certainly bugs which would indicate that there was decomposition going on. If there`s a large amount of maggot activity in that trunk, that`s pretty good evidence that there was something of substance decomposing there more than just some type of food substance that has been indicated in the past.

So, it`s not just one thing that you`re looking for. You`re looking for as many things as you could probably put together to really try and prove that there was something in that trunk which indicates the remains of a human individual was there.

PINSKY: Now, what do you make of all this talk about the smell of death and a dead body and whatnot. I mean, I`m a physician. I`ve been around both live putrefaction and dead bodies. I`m not sure I could tell the difference. Do you think people should be able to do that?

SPITZ: Well, I`ll tell you, the smell of a composing body is quite overwhelming. And it would certainly be able to be distinguished from some type of rotting food substance. So, the fact that there has been testimony that, you know, indicating that there was some serious putrefactive odor in that trunk is not definite evidence, but it`s pretty compelling, and when you correlated with all the other evidence, I think that the take-home message to this jury is that there was the remains of a human body in the trunk.

PINSKY: Again, I like asking all my experts what their sort of hunch is on this case. Do you have one, Dr. Spitz?

SPITZ: Well, I think my hunch here is that the cause of death might be an issue for some of the jurors because there is not a definitive cause of death, but I think it`s important, and I`m sure the prosecution will remind these jurors that the autopsy is one piece of the puzzle. Cause of death may be determined from the autopsy but manner of death, which had been classified as a homicide, is based on the totality of the evidence.

And looking at the autopsy in a vacuum is really a problematic. But looking at the big picture, I think, as this case gets pieced together, a conviction is pretty likely.

PINSKY: So, you`re seeing it as probably a homicide, not an accident?

SPITZ: I think that`s what I`m leaning toward, yes.

PINSKY: OK. That`s an experienced medical examiner, Dr. Spitz, thank you very much. Loni, I`m going to lose you in a few minutes. I want you to sort of give me how you put this case together, not as a legal expert. I`m going to (ph) step back. I want you to have your attorney hat on, but I want your mom hat on, I want your human being hat on, too.


PINSKY: You put this thing together for us. I just want to make sense of it. I want to figure it out. So, when you put it all together based on what you`ve heard and the way it`s being presented in court, what do you think happened to this poor girl?

COOMBS: You know, and I think this is the way the prosecutors need to present the case. They have to give the context of it. You can`t just stick with the bare, you know, legal facts. You`ve got a young girl who had a child. There`s testimony and evidence that she didn`t necessarily want the child.

PINSKY: Wide (ph) yourself, you`re young. You appreciate what that is.

COOMBS: That`s right. And maybe was feeling tied down by this little girl. You know, cute to play with once in a while --

PINSKY: The grandparents were readily available.

COOMBS: Well, interestingly enough, it doesn`t seem like that ever happened. They were very involved and they were also very enmeshed with Casey for -- you know, as we all have dysfunction in our family, but there was a very interesting relationship there. Then, you put on top of that this self-gratification, the indulgence, the immaturity that we know that she had.

PINSKY: And the lying.

COOMBS: And the constant lying to the part where she doesn`t really know what the truth is. And here is this kid. And whether it was accidental or intentional, which there is this evidence, there was this computer search going on, there was something that happened, either she snapped or she planned it, and this poor child was the victim. And from then on, she had to just cover it up. And she was covering it up, and then, happy day, my day, you know, she continued on with her life.

PINSKY: Again, when somebody doesn`t know reality versus fiction, it`s pretty easy to ignore that anything bad happened.

COOMBS: That`s exactly right.

PINSKY: Thank you, Loni. Appreciate you having been here.

Casey watchers beat each other up all for a seat in the courtroom. We`re going to talk to someone who was in the middle of the melee. I hope not somebody who was throwing punches, but we`ll talk to people from my jury after this.





PINSKY: We`re going to get back to that fist fight now. We`re bringing back a member of my jury who witnessed it all firsthand. Now, not only are those storm clouds that you just saw there brewing outside the courtroom, there`s actually a meteorological storm, a genuine storm, that has knocked out our satellite. So, Robin is joining me by phone. She, by the way, was also one of the spectators who fell asleep today during testimony and got kicked out of the courtroom.

Well, Robin, I want to hear about that, but first, let`s start off with this fight. What the heck happened in line?

VOICE OF ROBIN WILKIE, DR. DREW "JUROR": Yes, hello. Thank you for having me on. Yes, it was just unbelievable. You know, I`m the sharpie lady, and what I do is I use the numbering tool, you know, to organize people, you know, for the first come, first serve basis.

PINSKY: Your system broke down. What happened?

WILKIE: Well, what happened is, I mean, it`s absolutely amazing, but these women kind of in the back. They were kind of like, 80, 85, number 85, you know, number 70, number 60, and they were kind of afraid that they were never going to get in, which is probably true, because they only let about 50 people in. And I don`t know. They got out of bed the wrong way. I don`t know. They hate their lives. I don`t know, but they made my life a living hell.

PINSKY: So, let me understand this, Robin. So, they started fighting with you and your attempt to establish order. Did they just butt in line? Did they just move themselves to the front of the line or try to push anybody out of the way? Was there sort of physical -- what happened?

WILKIE: No, no. First, it was verbal. And what they did was they, you know, just kept badgering me and badgering me and trying to make me do another head count, trying to make me, you know, use different numbers and start all over again.

PINSKY: Rob, I`m watching some footage here where people are actually throwing punches on a man who`s sort of balding here. It`s three women throwing punches on a guy. Did you see all that go down? Was that guy just trying to establish order and they attacked him?

WILKIE: Of course. Of course. I was the first person, you know, in the row. Of course, absolutely. What you`re seeing there happened in between about 3:00 and 4:00 -- well, no, about 3:00 and 5:30 in the morning. It was unbelievable.

PINSKY: All right. Before we -- all right. I just got a few seconds with you. Let me ask you this. You fell asleep. What happened in court today that put you down?

WILKIE: Well, I only got two hours of sleep the night before.

PINSKY: Because of this fight?

WILKIE: Yes. And then, the night before, I only got a few hours of sleep so That I could get into court.

PINSKY: All right.

WILKIE: So, you know, I was very, very tired.

PINSKY: All right. We need you to -- Robin, we need you to be -- not only to establish a civilized society there outside that courtroom, we need you to be our eyes and ears there in the courtroom, so we`re counting on you, OK?

WILKIE: Yes. When am I going to come and see you? I want to come and see you in L.A.

PINSKY: That`d be great. Or I might come down there and see you one of these days. We`ll see how that works out. Thank you, Robin.

But before we go, we have a little fun here, but still, again, where we started this, the behavior was outrageous outside the courtroom. I mean, it`s OK to inject a little levity into this, because this is something that`s really difficult to talk about day after day without some relief, but really, violence, that`s where we`re going with this.

Let`s remind ourselves, the Anthony case is about Caylee, a two-year- old who`s dead. Let`s not forget that. It is about -- there she is. It is about trying to serve justice for this beautiful, young child. Thank you for watching. We will see you next time.