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Casey`s Defense Destroyed Lives?; Pre-Dawn Brawl in Courthouse Line

Aired June 17, 2011 - 19:00:00   ET



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, a violent brawl erupts outside the Casey Anthony courthouse. As the defense wraps up its case, everyone is asking is Jose Baez and the rest of the dream team just muddying the waters? Accusations of family molestation and a greedy meter reader fly, but will their latest stunt, the ex-con phone calls, totally back fire?

VASCO THOMPSON, POTENTIAL DEFENSE WITNESS: I have no idea who George Anthony is. I`ve just seen him on TV.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And, as the Anthony family goes through hell...

CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CASEY: I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How many more lives can this trial destroy?

MARK LIPPMAN, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE, CINDY & LEE ANTHONY: It`s unfortunate that Mr. Thompson had to be brought into this case in this way, or at all.




GEORGE ANTHONY, FATHER OF CASEY: Shut up. I`m talking. I am talking!

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY`S ATTORNEY: Conducted what would be considered a paternity test to determine if Lee Anthony was the biological father of Caylee Anthony.

THOMPSON: I have no idea who George Anthony is. I just met him, seen him on TV.

CHENEY MASON, ATTORNEY FOR CASEY: Miss Anthony has a history of untruthfulness among family members and friends.

BAEZ: Casey has a brother. And he, too, wanted to follow in his father`s footsteps. He attempted to also touch his sister.

CINDY ANTHONY: I overheard her tell me that Caylee had been gone for 31 days.

BAEZ: You will not be able to trust a thing having to do with Mr. Kronk.

CINDY ANTHONY: You slandered me on TV.


CINDY ANTHONY: And you perjured yourself with this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever see a photograph of Zanny the nanny?

LIPPMAN: My client, Mr. George Anthony, never met this person.

JEFF ASHTON, PROSECUTOR: That is my objection. To ask that question is not a good faith question.

Is there any other opinion counsel is going to elicit? Because -- I`m sorry, I`ll wait. Counsel is busy texting.

BELVIN PERRY, JUDGE: I`m not going to say this ever again. I do not -- I do not -- want to hear editorial comments. I do not care if Mr. Baez is standing on his head, standing on one leg, so, folks, please let`s just stick with the facts and be professional.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Tonight, verbal fireworks in court as an infuriated judge cracks down after a heated war of words between the prosecutor and the defense attorney. Have tempers reached a boiling point? All signs point to a trial barreling out of control as yet another all-out war erupts outside the courtroom. Take a look at this. In the wee hours of the morning, this is what went down.




VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re going to talk to somebody who was in the thick of that brawl in just a minute.

Now, things were no tamer inside the courtroom as the prosecution tore apart the defense bug expert, this guy over here. The prosecutor got him to admit that the smell of human decomposition is distinct and, yes, that he did smell something that stank in Casey`s car, even two years later when he examined it. Two years later.


ASHTON: So wherever this body was when it was excluded from early colonizers, what was in the trunk or some place else, that place would stink and you would not be able to get the stink out. Isn`t that correct?

TIMOTHY HUNTINGTON, BUG EXPERT: Yes. Yes, that`s correct.

ASHTON: Wherever this body decomposed, it would smell distinctly, wouldn`t it?

HUNTINGTON: It would smell bad, yes.

ASHTON: And that smell would be difficult to ever get out, wouldn`t it?

HUNTINGTON: It is difficult, yes.

ASHTON: When in your experience has a bag of garbage stunk up a car two years after it was removed? And what was in that garbage? Dr. Huntington?

HUNTINGTON: I can honestly say I`ve never left a bag of garbage in a car trunk in Florida during the summer for a week. So I don`t have that experience.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow, the prosecution knocking it out of the park there, plus another development that could decimate the defense. Their surprise witness, this convicted felon they wanted to link to George Anthony, surprised everybody by coming forward and talking. Check this out.


THOMPSON: I have no idea who George Anthony is, I just seen him on TV. I never talked to George Anthony. I never -- like I said, I never -- I don`t know him.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And yet another person whose life has been turned upside down by Casey Anthony, that guy right there.

Plus, George Anthony -- get this -- calls 911 on bounty hunter Leonard Padilla. Leonard is here tonight, and we`re going to talk to him about it, find out what was going on.

But on day two of the defense case, did the prosecution turn the tables? Straight out to a legal contributor for "In Session," Sonny Hostin. What was it all about? The texting, I find fascinating. Is Jose Baez allegedly texting in court during the proceedings?

SONNY HOSTIN, LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR, TRUTV`S "IN SESSION": Well, apparently so. And I mean, this is a judge that wants the courtroom to be the way it always was, which is a courtroom full of decorum, Jane. And so he did not like that Jose Baez was texting, and certainly, Jeff Ashton called him on it.

But it certainly was sort of a battle of the bug experts today. Not just between the attorneys, but certainly between professor and student, because the prosecution`s bug expert, Dr. Neil Haskell, was the defense expert`s, Dr. Timothy Huntington`s, professor. So it was very interesting to see in the courtroom how the student, the defense`s expert, just really disagreed with the prosecution`s expert, his old professor.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The prosecution got him to say a whole bunch of incriminating things like, "When I checked the car two years later, it reeked, basically"? And so that right there -- yes...

HOSTIN: You know, I will say this. I think that the prosecution did an incredible job with cross-examining this witness. It was a very aggressive cross-examination.

But this defense witness did testify that Casey -- Caylee Anthony`s body must have been moved when it was decomposing to the site where her remains were found. He also testified that he did not believe that there was a body decomposing in the trunk. At least that is what he told the judge and the attorneys.

So I think that he did give this defense team some nuggets, Jane, to argue in closing arguments. And that`s all this defense team needs. They need one juror, just one juror to believe one of these defense theories to end with reasonable doubt and potentially some sort of hung jury. And so did he knock it out of the park for the defense team? No. But did he give him a little bit? Absolutely. Absolutely.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, well, I have to say, I believe that the prosecution actually knocked it out of the park in their cross-examination, Stacey Honowitz, because they got this defense expert witness to agree that the car stunk two years later. And also that they made their point that garbage does not produce this kind of a smell two years later -- Stacey.

STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Yes, I mean, absolutely. That`s really what they need to do. They need to get up and say, "Wait a second, you want to tell me that this wasn`t a decomposing body? You looked at the car two years later, and you`d still smell it. You`re going to tell me" -- and his question was precise. "When was the last time you spelled garbage after -- that something smelled like garbage after two years?" That point, you can talk about all the bugs, the larva, the blood, everything for five hours. But when you just narrow it down to that, that`s the bottom line.

And on top of that, you got five other people familiar with decomposition, now this doctor who says it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Who have smelled the smell of death.

Now I want to go to this surprise defense witness fiasco that actually may backfire on the defense. They called him as a witness for one reason. They claim Vasco shared -- this guy, Vasco Thompson -- shared four phone calls with George Anthony on July 14, 2008. OK. That means that George talked to an ex-con just one day before Cindy Anthony made her infamous 911 call.

But guess what? This guy had a news conference today and said, "Hey, those phone calls -- four phone calls never happened," at least not with him. Watch as he explains this today.


THOMPSON: The phone number they got in question, I didn`t have that phone number until February of `09. And I don`t know why they got me involved in all this mess.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I have to say it again. This ex-con, Vasco, didn`t even have that number at the time.

So I got to go out to Mark Lippman. You`re the attorney for the Anthony family. It seems the defense is quite intent on sort of pointing to George as a source of problems, guilt by association. And yet they seem to be not doing their research, and this guy says he didn`t even have that phone number at the time they`re claiming that he and George were communicating with each other.

LIPPMAN: Yes, well, the public`s been looking at the discovery from the state for three years now. And we -- when that information came out, I can`t tell you how many e-mails I got from people who have actually researched that particular phone number. And they saw that there were multiple phone calls and text messages in that month. Not just on that particular day.

And it was for a job that George, my client, was starting in celebration. And for some reason the defense is saying that it`s four phone calls, but it appears that it was one phone call and three text messages. And I`m still trying to verify that, but the research shows that, again, we don`t note length of the phone call or anything else, but...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mark -- Mark...

LIPPMAN: ... my client`s never met Vasco.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And how is it -- yes, why is it -- why is the defense doing this, in your opinion, and how is it impacting your client, George Anthony, and his wife, Cindy?

LIPPMAN: Well, they`re doing it to try and save their client. They`re doing everything they can to save somebody from the death penalty, whatever it takes.

Certainly, we react as quickly as this information comes out. We have to be, careful since my clients are under subpoena. My clients will not discuss the case while they`re under subpoena. But certainly, if there`s any misinformation or flat-out lies that are out there, I`m going to respond on their behalf.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How are they doing emotionally?

LIPPMAN: Well, you can see day to day, some days are good; some days are bad. It`s been a difficult time so far. And it certainly -- this is not a slow road, and we`re waiting to see the results, just like everybody else.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, passions are running high inside the courtroom and outside, as well. Check this out.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let him go. Let him go. Let him go. Let him go.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is this another trial out of control?

Also, could the defense surprise witness be another victim? Yes. He says he is a victim. He`s fighting back.


THOMPSON: The phone number they got in question, I didn`t have that phone number until February of `09. And I don`t know why they got me involved in all this mess.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let him go. Let him go. Let him go. Let him go.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You put him in a headlock. You put him in a headlock. You put him in a headlock, I saw it.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I saw you put him in a headlock.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: There you see it. Pandemonium erupts outside the court. Trial fans started lining up for today`s seats at about 8 p.m. last night. And then, at about 5 a.m. this morning, two men tried to cut in line, and complete mayhem erupted. You saw it right there. And nobody was arrested, but cops gave out four trespass warnings.

This is not the first fisticuffs we`ve seen in this ticket line. What the heck is going on? They`ve gotten so out of hand, the court decided actually to change the rules as of now. People are now asked to line up for tickets the day before in order to get into the next day`s court session to avoid this kind of mayhem.

See that guy with the neck brace? He manages to get into court every single time. I`ve seen him.

This trial practically has people foaming at the mouth. I`m trying to figure out what`s go on. And we`re very lucky to have one of the folks who was involved in the brawl that happened in the predawn hours with us on the phone, Dustin. You were in the fight outside court. We`re going to show video of it again and ask you to describe what exactly happened, Dustin.

DUSTIN BALLARD, CAUGHT UP IN PRE-DAWN BRAWL (via phone): Well my girlfriend and I and our two friends had been waiting in line since 6 p.m. yesterday. We got to around 5:30 in the morning. They do ask us to move on to state property. And they asked us to line up in a two-by-two orderly fashion.

We noticed around 5:25, 5:20 in the morning that there was a group of -- a small group of people that was standing outside of the line. They did not have the numbers written on their hands, and they basically said that the numbers don`t mean anything and they were going to cut people.

When the officers asked us to start walking single file, we were walking, and then somehow this group of people broke through. And they got -- they were basically right next to me, but hadn`t pushed me out of the way, as of yet.

When we got to the roped off area, which is very narrow, and it only allows two people to go through at a time, I was trying to allow the women who had numbers lower than mine -- my number was 11 -- I was trying to allow the women to go in before me so that they would have their spots in line that we had all waited for.

Well, as I`m holding the -- like the pole to hold the rope up, as I`m holding it to the side, that was against the wall, and there was a large gentleman in a red-and-white shirt who had pushed that pole out of the way and then pushed me forward into the women as they were passing through the...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So basically you`re saying that this erupted because of -- some people tried to cut in line, allegedly. But why the ferocious nature of this? Why are people so worked up that this is coming to fisticuffs?

BALLARD: I really don`t know, you know. My girlfriend and I were involved in, I think it was on June 10, of day 15, we were also involved in that line-cutting incident. And, you know, we`ve been going there all night. We just don`t want people to cut in front of us. You know...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Why are you there? Why are you on line, Dustin? Why are you on line?

BALLARD: In line?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Why are you on this line? Why are you standing in line to see this trial?

BALLARD: Oh, oh, oh, it is a local event. You know, it intrigues us.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 911, what is your emergency?

G. ANTHONY: Yes, ma`am. And I`m calling in regards to a gentleman who`s out in front of my house and per my attorney has advise me to call the sheriff`s department ASAP to report this gentleman, who is not supposed to be anywhere near our home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is there a restraining order on him, sir?

G. ANTHONY: Not at this moment, ma`am, but the gentleman has been served with a notice to not harass us in any way, shape or form.


G. ANTHONY: And he is out in front of our house, ma`am.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. George Anthony called the police, I believe it was the night before last, when he spotted bounty hunter Leonard Padilla outside his House, he says.

Now, just a reminder, Leonard Padilla is the one who bailed Casey out of jail in the summer of 2008, and soon after Leonard and the Anthonys parted ways. And Leonard Padilla says that`s because Casey did not cooperate with the search for little Caylee. And that`s essentially why he had bailed her out in the first place.

Now, we`re delighted to have bounty hunter Leonard Padilla with us here on ISSUES tonight.

This 911 call, tell us all about it, Leonard. From your perspective, what happened?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: OK. Here`s what happened. I get a call on Monday, this past Monday from Judge Jeanine Pirro, wanting me to take her out to the site where the body was found.

I flew into Orlando Wednesday morning. I get picked up by a car, and I says, "Where are we going?"

He says, "We`re going out to the site. I just took the judge out there about an hour and a half ago. The camera crew is set up and everything."

I said, "OK, fine." And then I notice we`re turning down Hope Spring where the Anthonys live. And I said, "Wait, wait, wait. I thought we were going out to where the body was."

He says, "Well, this is where everybody`s at."

As we approach the camera crew, there`s the judge. There`s the camera crew. It`s about 3 or 4 in the afternoon, and I get out of the car and I says, "Hey, folks, this isn`t a good idea. These folks are in the drama."

"Oh, no, there is nobody home. The lights are off and everything."

I says, "I don`t believe that. They kind of live without the lights on because they got little cameras, you know, to surveil and all that."

They said, "No, it`s fine. We`re only going to be here for about three minute because the judge wants to get in the car and drive down to the dead end, make a right..."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me just say this.

PADILLA: I says...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You have parted ways with the Anthonys. You`ve parted way with the Anthonys. You were actually there. You used to know the Anthonys, used to hang out with them.

PADILLA: I still do.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You bailed Casey out. And essentially, you guys have parted ways. Why?

PADILLA: No, I don`t think we parted ways. I think basically sometimes...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: He called the cops on you.

PADILLA: Well, they called the cops on me, as many people do often. They called the cops on me because they`re drama queens. They wanted to have some activity. They wanted the center of the attention. And they called the cops and told them that there was a restraining order in effect.

The cop came over. I met him when I was in Orange County before. And I says, "There`s no," and the judge asked for a copy of the restraining order. And they went back to the house. And somebody in the House -- I don`t know whether it was George or Cindy -- said, "Well, there is a restraining order, but it`s at the attorney`s office."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Don`t you -- do you compassion for them...


VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... what they`re going through, the hell that the Anthonys are going through? Do you have compassion for them?

PADILLA: Absolutely. More than George will ever understand for him. Cindy, not so much. Because while we were there, she twisted a lot of facts. George, yes, because just like the phone call. I can just see Cindy saying, "George, get on that phone and call 911."

There`s no emergency. There`s a camera crew. There`s a judge and...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Leonard, we`re going to get more of your analysis in a minute. But, suffice it to say, more dramarama in this case. Things are really melting down. Stay with us.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let him go. Let him go. Let him go.

GEORGE ANTHONY, FATHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: Shut up. I`m talking. I am talking.

CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you ever sexually molested your daughter Casey Anthony?

G. ANTHONY: No, sir.

CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: Call for a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) one more time and what are you going to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) --



JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: When Casey was 8 years old and her father came into her room and began to touch her inappropriately and it escalated and it escalated.

CINDY ANTHONY: So there you go. You want to fight it?

BAEZ: Casey has a brother and he too wanted to follow in his father`s footsteps. He attempted to also touch his sister.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All the people come out and crucify you for this because of all of the lies that you`ve been telling us.

BAEZ: -- if have conducted what would be considered a paternity test to determine if Lee Anthony was the biological father of Caylee Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you say about the new theory that Caylee might have been dead -- it might have been an accident?

G. Anthony: Shut up.



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: Tonight, punches thrown outside the courthouse. A furious fistfight breaks out among Casey watchers trying to score a front row seat to the trial. Tensions are boiling over. And the heat in Florida is searing.

Then, attorneys inside court on the attack as Casey`s defense team points the finger at George Anthony. Their surprise witness comes out of hiding and he says this guy, an ex-convict, "I don`t even know George Anthony. I`ve never talked with him on the phone as the defense insists." This whole thing is just a desperate maneuver by the defense. Listen to him.


VASCO THOMPSON, POTENTIAL DEFENSE WITNESS: The phone number they got in question, I didn`t have that phone number until February of `09. And I don`t know why they got me involved in all this mess.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: He didn`t even have the number until 2009. The defense is claiming that they exchanged calls in 2008 on a crucial day. And this guy`s life now forever tainted by this trial; collateral damage in Casey Anthony`s war to save her skin.

Now, inside court I have to tell you that all the buzz was about this bug expert who testified for the defense. But the prosecutor, Jeff Ashton, managed to turn this witness into a big win for the prosecution. Check this out.


JEFF ASHTON, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: When you viewed the trunk in July of 2010, it still smelled, didn`t it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a smell in the trunk, yes.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So far Casey`s defense, well, Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor, is it a lot of smoke and mirrors?

WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: I was going to call it a side show, a dog-and-pony show, you know, fill in the blank. And this guy is just today`s pony, you know, this Vasco Thompson guy.

I think that almost everything the defense is doing is an outright lie and in my opinion is unethical. I think Jose Baez should be sanctioned for making up all these stories. Not only because it is wrong to throw mud at people who have nothing to do with the issues in dispute, but it undermines the integrity of the criminal justice system.

Frankly, I wish we would play a question, I assume it was asked, of this bug guy, how much are you being paid to lie and how big of a whore are you?

This is the thing that drives me crazy. That guy was a clear liar, under oath, did it, I`m sure, because he got paid a bunch of dough. Why aren`t we hearing that Q&A? Why do we have a legal system that lets people make stuff up? Why?

He`s a professional. He should be sanctioned. That bug expert should be sanctioned for lying under oath. Everybody knows there was a dead body in that trunk and he says it was garbage? His testimony is garbage.


SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You`re making some very serious allegations and you really need to be careful, Wendy, when you`re calling - -

MURPHY: No, I don`t. When the whole trial is a lie, you don`t tell me to be careful. You don`t tell me to be careful.

HOSTIN: You need to be careful --

MURPHY: No, I don`t. You don`t tell me to be careful. That trial is a lie.

HOSTIN: You should be ashamed.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Take all their mikes down. Take all their mikes down. We`re going to go one at a time.

Sunny Hostin, your turn, speak. And then after she`s done, Wendy, you have a chance to respond. Go for it, Sunny Hostin.

HOSTIN: Thank you.

I think it is one thing to comment on what`s going on at a trial. I think it is another thing to call witnesses liars and say that they should be sanctioned. It is also over and -- it is just inappropriate to say that an attorney needs to be sanctioned.

Now, let me talk a little bit about this Vasco Thompson. Yes, I have the motion in front of my -- in front of me. Vasco Thompson certainly was asked to speak to the defense investigators. He didn`t have to speak to the defense investigators, but he chose not to speak. And so the defense had to file a motion asking that they be allowed to depose him so they could find out whether or not there was relevant evidence.

They didn`t say that it was relevant. They said they needed to find out and that is an appropriate thing for a defense attorney to do.

Now, I`m not taking up for the defense because I`m a former prosecutor. I just believe in justice. And I believe in saying the facts the way they should be said and Wendy Murphy is way out of line here.


MURPHY: How many times have you, Sunny -- how many times have you, Sunny, called Casey Anthony a liar? How many times have you called people liars in this case? I guess it is ok to call some people liars but not others.

Listen, this trial is a joke. Everything the defense is doing is a show. It is not designed to get at the truth. It is designed to distort the truth.

We should be angry because a child is dead. And this trial is not producing the truth. You should be ashamed of your legal system.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on. I agree that there is a problem here where we seem to be entering into trial by innuendo. This surprise defense witness is a perfect example.

Now let me remind viewers of what the situation is. The defense says, oh, I`ve got this surprise witness named Vasco Thompson. He`s an ex- convict who served time for kidnapping. And he exchanged four phone conversations with George Anthony on a crucial day, the day before Cindy calls 911 to report that her granddaughter is missing for 30 days.

Well, guess what? Vasco Thompson held a news conference today, impromptu, and says he didn`t even own that cell phone number at the time the defense says he used it to talk to George Anthony. Now, if anybody should know the people`s cell phone numbers are always changing, it should be Casey`s defense team because it`s come up so much at trial. Listen to this.


CASEY ANTHONY: I know she had at least three different phone numbers in the last almost four years that I met her.

And I know she was on two different phone plans.

Yes, I have two phones. I just received a new phone through work, through Universal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Same phone number?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, same phone number, I just lost the phone. If we get the actual phone, I know I have one other number for Zenaida.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Stacey Honowitz, did the defense fail to do their homework on the surprise witness and should they have called the phone company and confirmed or found out, oh, this guy didn`t even have this phone or this phone number at the time they`re claiming he had this contact with George Anthony?

STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Well, absolutely. If you are going to list a witness to testify on your side in the case, you better do your homework. That`s the job of your investigators. That`s the job of your team.

If you want someone to come into court and testify on your client`s behalf, you better know what you`re talking about. That`s what happened in this case. He failed to do his homework, exactly, and he made this whole big production.

He filed this motion based on information that was improper and that`s why this witness is coming forward saying now, "You know what? I`m almost in the same boat as Zenaida, the fake nanny."


HONOWITZ: "My life is turned around. Everyone is coming after me."

So, yes this is a big failure on the part of the defense to do a background check, to see who they`re calling into court.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Brandy, Florida, you`ve been so patient, your question or thought, Brandy.

BRANDY, FLORIDA (via telephone): Hi Jane. Thanks for taking my call. My question is actually about the judge this evening.


BRANDY: I`m here.


BRANDY: My question is actually about Judge Perry --




BRANDY: I wonder if he has formed an opinion even though I know he`s been wonderful at managing the circus as you guys call it, which it has become, and if you think that him forming an opinion as to Casey`s guilt or innocence affects the way he rules in some of these motions.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that`s a very good question.

Leonard Padilla, do you think this judge is just being tough or has he been siding with the prosecution?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: He`s just being tough. He`s running a good courtroom. And a lot of people are using this trial as a first time they have ever been in the sight of the American justice and it is like making sausage. If you see what they`re doing when they make sausage, you don`t want to watch it but this is a trial.

It is not that it is high profile or anything. This happens a thousand times every day across America. The other thing that should be of note is that Tim Miller one time said, everybody gets involved, gets body slammed in this particular case.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, it is a vortex. And anybody who is in the vortex gets sucked in and often anybody whose name is even mentioned in connection with this case, finds their lives shattered and we`re going to talk about that next. Is the Casey Anthony trial barreling out of control?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let him go. Let him go. Let him go. Let him go. Let him go.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Complete chaos outside the courtroom and fireworks inside. More next.



MATT MORGAN, VASCO THOMPSON`S ATTORNEY: Vasco is a church-going man, unbelievable guy, great guy; not the convicted felon that he`s been portrayed to be. Vasco is married to a beautiful woman, and she`s a schoolteacher. You know, he`s paid his debt back to society for his previous, you know, wrong and at this point he`s trying to move on with his life.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, this ex-con who the defense listed as a surprise witness, Vasco Thompson, along with the real Zenaida Gonzalez, they`re on a long list of strangers whose lives have been shattered, ruined, you might say, by this trial.

Zenaida, a single mother of six, was falsely identified in 2008 as Zanny the nanny, this fake person Casey claimed had kidnapped Caylee. Zenaida says her life totally fell apart. Check this out.


ZENAIDA GONZALEZ, SUING CASEY ANTHONY FOR DEFAMATION: To me it was like, oh my God, what am I going to do? You know, how am I going to tell these people I didn`t do it? What am I supposed to do now? My thought was I`m going to lose my children.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Zenaida filed a definition suit against Casey Anthony, but unless she changes her name, the Zanny the nanny stigma will go with her, unfortunately, probably for the rest of her life.

Stacey Honowitz, do you think this ex-con who has been linked to this case now because of phone calls when he didn`t even have that phone number at the time should file a lawsuit similar to Zenaida Gonzalez?

HONOWITZ: Well, we really have to see how it pans out. All we have today is just a press conference from him saying he had no contact. I mean certainly he`s going to contact a lawyer and I`m certain that a lawyer is going to say to him, you need to clear your name somehow, some way.

So we really need to see how far this is going to go and quite frankly I`d like to see what Jose Baez plans on doing because according to him, or according to the defense people that are -- the defense investigators are telling him that there still is some connection.

So certainly if he backs down and doesn`t call this individual to the stand, after, you know, trail blazing and doing all these things to him, then certainly it is worthy of going to a lawyer to say, clear my name, figure out a way to do it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and we`re talking about this theme of this defense case from the get-go. Casey`s defense has essentially tried to convince the jury that Casey comes from a sick, demented household filled with perverts.

But what if they can`t prove it? And that`s my big issue. Has the defense resorted to trial by innuendo? Trial by innuendo?


BAEZ: Were you asked to conduct a paternity test for Lee Anthony as to Caylee -- being the potential father to Caylee Anthony. The FBI in this case did do a paternity test but he was excluded as the potential father and end of story.

Ashton: There is no good faith basis for that. And also, of course, it is hearsay.

BAEZ: Who did you understand that they wanted you to compare the paternity test for?

ASHTON: What is the relevance of that other than to suggest to the jury that there is some information out there that this jury has not heard?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: That was a very angry exchange that happened in court yesterday. And essentially -- stay calm, Wendy, I know that you`re upset. I think it is upsetting a lot of people. Jose Baez promised the jury that they would hear more essentially about Lee`s alleged attempts to molest Casey, and George, her dad`s, alleged molestation.

And it would seem that they are trying, according to critics, to get this in by innuendo, by asking inflammatory questions about paternity tests that they know turned out negative.

MURPHY: Yes, I mean, it is a classic question that we have, you know, heard in one form or another in a lot of these cases. When did you stop beating your wife?

The implication in the question is what is damaging because the jury certainly is going to be saying to itself, they never would have tested him if it hadn`t been suggested that they were having some kind of sexual activity. And whether or not they had sexual acts in some way in the past, it is not the issue now. It has nothing to do with this case.

So why do defense attorneys get away with slinging mud like this? One of the things I write about in my book is the critical need in our legal system to rein in defense attorneys from this kind of nonsense, not only because it undermines the integrity of our legal system, but because it really cause harm to real people.

You know why they do it, Jane, there are no sanctions. A defense attorney can get away with it and there is very little we can do. You asked Stacey, why don`t we file a lawsuit? Well, guess who, you know, this guy Vasco would have to sue? Baez. Can you sue a lawyer for the tactics he does in a kangaroo court like this.


MURPHY: No. He has immunity. The system doesn`t punish these lawyers.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Tammy, Illinois, quick question or thought, Tammy.

TAMMY: Yes, Jane. I was wondering if they were going to have a forensic psychologist either interview or be interviewed by the defense or prosecution to see her mental status regarding the alleged sex abuse or any type of mental status that she might have now or in the past or so on.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. Now, Stacey Honowitz, I know that the prosecution didn`t bring on any psychologist to analyze her. Will the defense?

HONOWITZ: Well, listen, here`s the deal. In Florida, it is very difficult to have a person come in and profile what a sex abuse victim might be. The law is quite clear about that.

The second thing is, anything that she would testify to was all hearsay of what Casey might have told her. So I don`t think there is anybody on the list. I don`t think a forensic psychologist has ever been - -

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. More on the other side.



MARK LIPPMAN, GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: They`re doing everything they can to save their client who is facing the death penalty. And if it takes driving (ph) down people, I imagine they`re going to do it.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Casey Anthony`s lawyers, well, some say they`re going to stop at nothing to free their client. But their strategies could back fire. Today, a key surprise defense witness held a news conference to proclaim his innocence and say I have nothing to do with George Anthony never met the guy, even though the defense submitted paperwork saying that he had engaged in phone calls with George Anthony at a crucial time period. And this guy being an ex-con, it kind of would have a tendency to make George look shady.

This ex-convict right here says his life has basically shattered because he had paid his dues to the society, his debt. And he was trying to move on with his life and is a church-going guy now who does the right thing, he says. And now the whole world remembers him for what he did wrong initially.

And Leonard Padilla, there have been so many people taken down by this case; just think of all the boyfriends of Casey Anthony, they will forever be known -- and they`re young kids, young guys -- as the guys who dated Casey Anthony. That will haunt them wherever they go.

PADILLA: Every one of them will get a few bucks off their entertainment. And as I said before Tim Miller said, anybody that gets involved in this case gets body slammed.

The thing about it is that I think it was time that just declared this criminal case the "social trial of the year", something to that effect. And I spoke to Baez about three days after we got to Florida in `08 and told him that he had himself a case that was going to go bigger than O.J. Simpson.

But to side on the side of what sometimes Jose does as a defense attorney, at the time we were there, he was really, really trying to get us to go into the Jesse Grund direction. In other words, we thought the child was alive, and he was really heading us in the direction of Jesse Grund having kidnapped the child and not returning her and blaming Casey because she had dumped him. And Cindy was going right along with it.

We met for four hours with Cindy and George and Lee and, by God, she was heading this anti-Jesse Grund campaign and Jesse Grund did it and made horrible suggestions about Jesse Grund even after the car was declared to have had a body in it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to clarify because they have been very upset by some of the things you said, Leonard. And this is your --


PADILLA: Yes. That`s correct. But that`s the truth.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We have no confirmation. I was not there. And it doesn`t reflect the views of this network or this show. This is your opinion about this case.

PADILLA: That`s correct.

Now, let me move on because we have been talking about people who have been shattered by their association with this case.

Another one is Roy Kronk, the meter reader, who discovered little Caylee`s remains. Police say that he is a Good Samaritan. But frankly, well, let`s listen to a little bit about what we know of Roy Kronk. Check it out.


BAEZ: Mr. Kronk is a morally bankrupt individual who actually took Caylee`s body and hid her. And anything that you derive from the scene off the Suburban Drive is completely unreliable because of the actions of Mr. Kronk.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Stacey, briefly.


HONOWITZ: What do you say? I mean like Wendy said, it becomes lie after lie after lie. You throw things up against the wall and you see what sticks. And that`s what Jose is doing. There are so many different theories he doesn`t even know which one to believe.

The bottom line is, it is disjointed, it is not there, and it is not believable.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we`re going to have to see and see what happens. Is Casey going to testify? Some thoughts next.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Bounty hunter Leonard Padilla, will Casey Anthony take the stand?

PADILLA: She doesn`t have to now because Baez is going to rely on Kronk`s finding the body because he knows when Casey told him when she was in jail where the body was, now he knows that law enforcement also knew, gave it to Michelle who is Kronk`s girlfriend, because she worked at the jail. And he`s going to -- that`s why he`s saying that everything that flows from Kronk through to the poison tree is going to get thrown out. He`s betting on that.

He just don`t want to admit --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: In other words, he`s going to focus it -- Roy Kronk is also going to get body slammed in this case. And I want to remind everybody that law enforcement says that Roy Kronk is a Good Samaritan who just had a good instinct. Thought he saw something suspicious in August, and then went back around Christmas and actually found the body. And that he has not done anything wrong.

Thank you, Leonard. "Nancy Grace" is next.