Return to Transcripts main page


Source of Casey`s Drowning Story Found?

Aired June 21, 2011 - 19:00:00   ET



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the state drops a massive bombshell. Was Casey Anthony`s entire defense story about little Caylee`s accidental drowning borrowed from another inmate at her jail?

LINDA DRANE-BURDICK, PROSECUTOR: Apparently, her child died in the swimming pool and was found by the child`s grandfather. Miss Waylon was in an adjacent cell to Miss Anthony.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Could this discovery blow up the entire defense case? And will this woman be called to testify?

Plus, a behind-the-scenes look at the Casey trial with the woman in charge of what goes on outside Judge Perry`s court. What does she have to say about these crazy mob scenes? I`m live in Orlando, and I`m taking your calls.

ISSUES starts now.



BELVIN PERRY, JUDGE: This court does not make threats. This court simply applies the rules.

DRANE-BURDICK: Miss Waylon was in an adjacent cell to Miss Anthony. Apparently, her child died in a swimming pool.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: I`m talking. I`m talking!

JEFF ASHTON, PROSECUTOR: So you`re not of the opinion that the body had only been there for two weeks, correct?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let him go. Let him go. Let him go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When were you first retained by the defense?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was on 13 July, 2010.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today. And it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.

ASHTON: Your laboratory is actually in a converted barn. Is that correct?


ASHTON: You bought a farm.

Wouldn`t that indicate pretty conclusively that the skull had been there a whole lot longer than two weeks?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or a dog buried it.

ASHTON: A dog -- a dog buried it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They do. As do coyotes. I don`t know if you have those here.

ASHTON: No, we`re not blessed with coyotes.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Whoa. Hi there. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, and I`m here live in Orlando tonight. And I`m right outside the courthouse where Casey Anthony is on trial.

Now, this morning I was inside the courtroom, and I saw the drama unfold with my own eyes, and it is absolutely amazing. Totally different watching it on TV and being in the courtroom.

Tonight, ISSUES has some exclusive new information for you that is actually quite stunning. The prosecution now hinting at a possible surprise witness, and that possible new witness is the woman that you`re about to see in this mug shot. April Waylon was one of Casey`s jail mates for five days. OK, you heard me right. The prosecution might call this woman -- listen -- because her real life story, which is very tragic, is eerily, eerily similar to Casey`s defense.


DRANE-BURDICK: The name of the witness is April Waylon. Apparently, her child died in a swimming pool and was found by her child`s grandfather.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. So did Casey realize nobody was buying her story of a mystery baby-sitter named Zanny the nanny, and therefore, did Casey decide to borrow April`s tragedy and spin it into her own new defense story? It looks like prosecutors might argue just that. So could that blow up everything Jose Baez claimed about little Caylee`s drowning in his shocking opening statement?


JOSE BAEZ, CASEY`S ATTORNEY: Caylee Anthony died on June 16, 2008, when she drowned in her family`s swimming pool. As soon as Casey came around this corner and went back, she saw George Anthony holding Caylee in his arms. She immediately grabbed Caylee and began to cry and cry and cry. And shortly thereafter, George began to yell at her, "Look what you`ve done. your mother will never forgive you, and you will go to jail for child neglect for the rest of your freaking life."


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Where did that story suddenly come from? I`m taking your calls on this shocking new twist: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586- 7297.

I am so glad to have my dear friend, Aphrodite Jones, host of "True Crime" on Investigation Discovery with me. In fact, we were sitting together side by side in court. We`re going to talk about that in just a second.

But first, I want to bring in ISSUES producer Celene Darkalstanian, because she just got off the phone -- and this is an exclusive we`re bringing you right here on ISSUES. She just got off the phone with this possible new witness, April Waylon.

Celene, you`ve got to tell us all about this. This is -- first of all, way to go...


VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... getting this person on the phone. I don`t know how you do it. But this one knows how to do it. And tell us about it. What did she say?

DARKALSTANIAN: Thank you, Jane. I just got off the phone with her a few minutes ago. The media is bombarding her. She seemed a little bit irritated, but I got her on the phone, and she just wanted to clear this up. She was in jail two years ago on -- driving with a suspended license, and she just happened to be a few cells down from Casey Anthony. She has never met Casey Anthony. She has never spoken to Casey Anthony. The only thing she knows about Casey Anthony is by watching her on TV. And she has no idea how her name got dragged into this.

Her son did die two years ago in an accidental drowning in the family pool. But she has no idea how her name got dragged into this.

Now, she did tell me that she wants nothing to do with the story, and she just wants to clear up her name. And she did also mention that a detective did call her on Friday, and a detective called her today.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Whoa. OK. Now, do we know if she is a witness? I was subpoenaed once to testify at a trial. And I remember it well, because it was the Michael Jackson child molestation trial, which I was also a reporter in. And I was terrified, because once you`re subpoenaed, you can`t talk about the case. Therefore, you can`t go on television and talk about the case, even though, basically, at the time I was told go on and have fun with it. And I`m like, "No, you can`t do that. You can`t have fun with it."

So I sat there mute while I was on TV, saying, "I can`t talk about the case because I`ve been subpoenaed."

So my question to you is, she wouldn`t be talking to you, probably, if she had been subpoenaed. Has she been subpoenaed?

DARKALSTANIAN: She did not say whether she`s been subpoenaed or not. She just said she can`t go on camera and talk to her. I invited her to call in and talk on our show. And she just wanted to get -- clear this up on the phone and tell me what the real story was. And that`s why we want to get it out to her.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, why is this a huge development? Well, the entire defense case hangs on the theory that little Caylee accidentally drowned in the Anthony family pool. But thanks to a brand-new character, who`s just emerged in this case -- you just heard, this April Waylon -- the prosecution may now argue essentially that Casey stole that story from a fellow jail mate. Now, let`s listen to more of the story.


DRANE-BURDICK: A citizen called the Orange County Sheriff`s Office, left some information about an inmate who may have had contact with Miss Anthony.

The name of the witness is April Waylon. Apparently, her child died in a swimming pool and was found by the child`s grandfather. Miss Waylon was in an adjacent cell to Miss Anthony for a very brief period of time.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, those are eerie similarities, Aphrodite Jones. Now, we all know the movies, right, where the jail inmates have interesting ways of communicating with each other. Right? We`ve all seen that in those old black-and-white films. But today, I don`t know if it works that way. Could it be a game of telephone, though?

APHRODITE JONES, HOST, INVESTIGATION DISCOVERY`S "TRUE CRIME": Here`s the thing, Jane. It is probably a game of telephone. There isn`t a lot to do in a jail cell. People are going to talk, and it`s going to dribble down, trickle down, one to the next. And Casey got wind of somebody that was in jail that had a child who tragically drowned in a pool.

And voila, it somehow occurs to me, and I think to you as well, that we`ve seen Casey do nothing but superimpose lies, taking some grain of truth and then superimposing her family onto this particular story. This particular story...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You have a bombshell yourself, because you were in court toward the end of the day, and you said there`s also information that the prosecution has another way of possibly refuting the story that Jose Baez told in his opening statement. Tell me about that.

JONES: It is a bombshell. Because guess what? The prosecution has now said we have computer evidence to directly refute what Jose Baez was claiming about the day that Caylee drowned, about Casey`s story on that particular day.

And Baez, unfortunately, did not hire a forensic computer expert for his team. There was no analysis done. So he`s being caught with his pants down.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So wait. Essentially, you`re saying that, let`s say, OK, he obviously argued -- we just heard it -- the drowning theory, the accidental drowning theory, and then George found the child and covered it up.

You`re saying there could be computer evidence on the computer that would dispute that. For example, if at the time that that was allegedly happening, George was on the computer, maybe, having a computer conversation, an Internet conversation, an e-mail conversation with a buddy about going golfing or something like that.

JONES: They have absolutely stated, substantially, that they have this evidence, and they are going to present. We got a hint of what the rebuttal is going to be.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Linda Kenney Baden, there`s a lot of people saying this was a very bad day for the defense. What do you make of April Waylon coming into the picture now?

LINDA KENNEY BADEN, ATTORNEY: But before I even get there, Jane, let me just say, you don`t know when you`re talking about. The defense has a computer expert. OK? Let`s just put that aside.

So let`s get to the fact that this is the prosecution polluting the public mob trial here. And this is never coming in. I`ll tell you why. One, she said she didn`t know Casey Anthony. And No. 2, how do you refute it? Well, then, you make her attorneys witnesses, and they have to get on the stand, and they have to say when did they first learn about what their client told them. It will never, never happen.

Of course this judge has made so many mistakes, letting so much stuff in that shouldn`t be let in and keeping out stuff that should come in that, you know, I wouldn`t put it past him.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, wait a second. You`ve just -- I`ve always had a problem with the defense drowning theory. Here`s why, because the timing. Let`s listen to Cindy and Casey`s jailhouse visit from August 2008. Check this out.


CINDY ANTHONY: Dad blew up at the media.


CINDY ANTHONY: Someone just said that Caylee was dead this morning, that she drowned in the pool. That`s the newest story out there.

CASEY ANTHONY: Surprise, surprise.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, so that conversation took place in August 2008. And it was the following summer that Casey and April Waylon were in jail together. Quick response, Linda, to that timing.

BADEN: No. 1, if she knew she already drowned, that`s what she`s going to say. And look at the other people in the video. Who else isn`t reacting to the kid drowning in the pool?

There are two ways to look at it, and you can`t look at it with just the prosecution glasses on. You have to take evidence of innocence also. And if she drowned in the pool, she may be guilty of manslaughter. I don`t see what the big deal is.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, OK. All right. When somebody says, "Surprise, surprise" like that, it sounds sarcastic. It means to me that it`s not a real story at that point. O, thank you.

Call us: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. And by the way, I know Maryland, we`ve got you on the other side of the break. Tonight, a behind-the-scenes look with the woman who is in charge of what goes on outside Judge Perry`s courthouse. We`re going to talk to her about all the crazy madness outside court.

Plus, will George`s alleged former mistress take the stand?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that fair to say? You had an affair with George Anthony?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An intimate affair?





ASHTON: Hipbone was buried in four inches of muck. Wouldn`t that indicate pretty conclusively that the skull had been there a whole lot longer than two weeks?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or a dog buried it.

ASHTON: A dog buried -- a dog buried it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They do. As do coyotes.

ASHTON: Your laboratory is actually in a converted barn. Is that correct?

PERRY: Thank you, Doctor. You may stand down.

ASHTON: He`s not a doctor.

PERRY: Well, whatever he is.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The defense did not come out swinging this morning. In fact, I think you could describe their witnesses -- and I`m being polite here -- underwhelming. And that`s my big issue tonight. Does the defense have a witness weakness?

The general consensus, the buzz here at the courthouse, among a whole bunch of people, I was kind of -- informal surveys, that these defense witnesses -- and, again, I`m being very polite -- weak. Their testimony was fuzzy. Their credentials came into question. And I`ve got to say, I was in the courtroom watching, and I didn`t see the jury taking a lot of notes.

Jeff Brown, when the botanist was -- when she said that maybe a dog or a coyote buried a bone belonging to little Caylee Anthony, there was actually guffaws that were muffled in the courtroom. It was, in a very sick way, unintentionally comical, and there`s nothing funny about this very tragic case.

JEFF BROWN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, it`s embarrassing, actually. You know, a lot of these defense lawyers who have been trying death cases and cases for 20 years here in Florida are just shaking our heads just looking at this defense and watching Baez just say, you know, this is amateur hour. It really is.

And to put a witness on the stand and have that witness suggest that, actually, a dog could have buried this skull, it`s -- you just sit back and you shake your head and just say this is just a comedy of errors. I just - - I just can`t believe I`m actually listening and watching this.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. It`s pretty scary. Of course, it`s like when are the other witnesses going to come in the ones who we`re all waiting for like Roy Kronk or Roy Kronk`s exes or Roy Kronk`s estranged son who -- I mean, when are they going to get to the good stuff, as they say?

BROWN: Well, you`re supposed to start with your good stuff, you know. And they`re not -- they don`t have that.

And see, this is one of the problems. You`ve got an amateur trying this case, and I don`t think he knows how to put on a case. And it shows. You know, he`s not solid with his witnesses. Look at the difference between the government`s case and how the witnesses kind of flowed and how the directs were smooth and they introduced evidence.

And now you have a defense case where they`re having problems introducing evidence. They`re taking a jury out. And obviously, the judge is frustrated, because he`s not disclosing things. There`s objections. It just doesn`t flow, and this is the problem with somebody who doesn`t try a lot of cases.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I`ve got to say, Aphrodite, you and I were sitting next to each other in court. Now, one thing that I want to say is that, what I was watching, up until I got to the courtroom, I thought, oh, these jurors don`t have the whole story, right? They don`t have all the salacious details that we know about.

But the fact is that they got something that we don`t have, and that is they are looking at the video and the photos that are incredibly graphic. You and I were sitting there. They showed little Caylee`s skull, and it was so sad. And the prosecution in the cross-examination very cleverly kept it up for a good, what, 10, 15 minutes?

JONES: Fifteen minutes, I would say, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Fifteen minutes. And we`re sitting there watching it. And this woman is saying, "Well, those roots that were going through the skull," and you imagine a skull and there are roots growing through it, out the eye sockets and around the head, at least a half a dozen of these roots growing through the skull, and she`s saying these roots could have grown in two weeks. Your common sense tells you, on what planet could that happen, right?

JONES: That`s the thing. This woman, who is the plant expert, to actually sit there and try to finesse her way into telling a jury that "I`m an expert and I know that leaves fell, that leaves fell, and it was leaf litter that created my position to say this skull was only there for two weeks. Somebody placed it there."

When you see roots growing, when you see that it`s embedded into the earth -- and we`ve seen testimony and other witnesses testify about how long it took them to collect that skull, and all of Caylee`s little remains out of that...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It was kind of insulting your intelligence, to say that many roots could grow in a skull in that short a period of time.

All right, the judge gets mad. And, whoa, surprise witnesses. We`re just getting started. Taking your calls on the other side.



CASEY ANTHONY: I just wanted to let everyone know that I`m sorry for what I did. I take complete and full responsibility for my actions. And I`d like to sincerely apologize to Amy. I wish I would have been a better friend.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Another late bombshell that could deal, whoa, a big blow to the defense. Did the forensic anthropologist who testified Saturday for the defense misstate his credentials? Let`s hear what he said on the stand.


BAEZ: Are you a co-founder of the Forensic Anthropology Research Facility at the University of Tennessee?


BAEZ: Is that also known as the Body Farm?



VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Now guess what? Our Jean Casarez spoke to the head of media relations at the Body Farm, and she was told Mr. Rodriguez was not a co-founder and went on to say, "We don`t know why he said he was a co-founder on the stand."

Danette Myers, you`re the Los Angeles assistant district attorney who prosecuted the Lindsay Lohan case, and so you`re a tough prosecutor. Should this witness be investigated as to whether or not he committed perjury?

Can you hear, Danette?





MYERS: I think we`re having -- we`re having some technical difficulty.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, well, it happens in live television. Jeff Brown.

BROWN: Yes, absolutely. I think the judge is going to investigate this, and the question is going to become, you know, what is it that Baez knew and when did he know it?

You know, the judge has had a problem with Baez, because he`s not following the rules of evidence. He`s not following the rules of criminal procedure. And more importantly, he`s not following this judge`s very orders that were plain -- in plain English, in black and white, months ahead of time.

So not only is the judge going to probably investigate this, but I`m telling you right now: the Florida bar will have a case opened after this case. And the judge is the one that`s going to start that. He`s going to file his complaint with the Florida bar. They`ll be looking into a lot of this.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I mean, it`s one thing after another. He was also deemed to have intentionally violated the discovery rules by not giving prosecution reports on what the defense experts are going to talk about so that they could intelligently cross-examine.

Marilyn, Kentucky, you`ve been very patient. Your question or thought, Marilyn.

CALLER: I would like to know whether the prosecution hasn`t called Leonard Padilla to the stand because he spent time in the Anthony home?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Leonard Padilla? Is that what you said, bounty hunter? Leonard Padilla?

OK. That`s an interesting one. Could that be, Aphrodite, because he`s got too much baggage, Leonard Padilla. He`s the one who bailed Casey Anthony out, thinking initially, "Well, maybe if I bail her out, she`s going to tell us what happened to the little child," back when we all thought she`d been kidnapped. And then he realized she`s not cooperating, revoke bail, sent her right back to jail.

CASAREZ: I think that Leonard Padilla has inserted himself into this story, and I think a lot of people can see through that. And if the prosecution were to call him, even if he meant well and he tried to do the right thing by the Anthonys, at the end of the day on cross-examination, they would have a field day with that particular witness. And it would work as a witness for the defense. So I think that`s why they`re not calling him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let`s not forget: he`s been on the media. He`s been making the media rounds since day one. And I think that he loses some credibility there.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, OK. Absolutely.

Now, we`re going to ask the next question. Did Casey`s accidental drowning defense, was it a story taken from the real-life experience of another jailed inmate? An astounding development today. Stick with us.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re a baby killer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let him go. Let him go. Let him go.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get out of the way, cameraman. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey, where`s Caylee? Where`s her remains?

JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, PRESIDING OVER CASEY ANTHONY TRIAL: For those of you who may have queasiness or uneasiness, cannot control your emotions, I ask you to leave.

CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How far have you traveled to be here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: From Minneapolis, Minnesota.

CASEY ANTHONY, ACCUSED OF MURDERING DAUGHTER: I`m not in control over any of this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What can you say about the new theory that Caylee might be dead, that it might have been an accident?


PERRY: Members of the jury, back in the jury room, what did you have? (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s wrong with you?

CASEY ANTHONY: Completely upset. The media is going to have a freaking field day with this.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL: Find out what it is like managing the mayhem at the Casey Anthony courthouse. We`re going to tell you all about it with an expert who`s running the whole show in a moment.

But first, some really jaw dropping revelations tonight in the Casey Anthony murder trial. I`m here at the courthouse, of course, it is behind me. I was in court today and wow, one humdinger after another.

Is it possible that Casey Anthony came up with the Caylee drowning defense by borrowing the real life tragedy of one of her fellow inmates, this woman, April Whalen. She spent five days in the same jail dorm with Casey Anthony. Her 2-year-old son accidentally drowned in a pool two years ago and was discovered by, guess who, the child`s grandfather. Sound familiar?


LINDA DRANE-BURDICK, PROSECUTOR: A citizen called the Orange County Sheriff`s Office, left some information about an inmate who may have had contact with Miss Anthony. The name of the witness is April Whalen. Apparently her child died in a swimming pool and was found by the child`s grandfather. Miss Whalen was in an adjacent cell to Miss Anthony for a very brief period of time.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Straight out to Michael Christian, senior field producer, "In Session"; we have been tracking all this and this defense case at this point seems a tad weak today, but now we`re hearing already about a possible rebuttal case by the prosecution and bam, bam, bam, astounding new witnesses are being introduced.

MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, SENIOR FIELD PRODUCER, "IN SESSION": That`s right, Jane. This witness April Whalen came out of the blue today. We weren`t expecting her. We didn`t know that she was coming. She was first introduced when you heard that speech from Linda Drane-Burdick earlier today.

She is apparently someone who shared some time, in the same vicinity, the sub block where Casey Anthony has been kept in the Orange County jail. She denies knowing everything about her.

But as everyone has said, Casey is a person who takes bits and pieces from people her stories. And this is somebody who`s got a very remarkably similar story to what Casey Anthony has told in court or will maybe tell in court or her attorneys will tell in court.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And there could be, however, be a witness that will back up the defense story. George`s alleged mistress, a woman by the name of Krystal Holloway has been subpoenaed to testify. Now, she may be called to help corroborate the defense story that Caylee drowned in the family pool.

Listen to this.


KRYSTAL HOLLOWAY, WITNESS: I don`t believe that George picked the body up like they said. I think it was an accident.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did George tell you about that?

HOLLOWAY: That it was an accident that snow balled out of control.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Where have I heard that before? Listen to Jose Baez`s opening statement.


JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: This is a sad, tragic accident that snowballed out of control.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Danette Myers, Los Angeles assistant district attorney who prosecuted the Lindsay Lohan DUI. Krystal, can she testify about what George told her? Wouldn`t that be hearsay?

DANETTE MYERS, ASST. DISTRICT ATTORNEY, LOS ANGELES: It would be hearsay, Jane, but it is also a prior inconsistent statement. And is a prior inconsistent statement, it may come into evidence. It is, you know, relevant evidence because George got up on the witness stand and said no. Caylee did not drown, I was not there. And so if he told his mistress something very different, guess what, Jane, it`s coming in as a prior inconsistent statement.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What about the fact that she has a certain credibility problem because she at one point denied this affair. And hey, I wasn`t there behind closed doors, I have no idea if they really have an affair.

MYERS: She has a huge credibility problem. Additionally, Jane, you don`t know as a result of the relationship breaking up, whether or not she`s fabricating this story that George told her. So she`s got some huge credibility problems.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It is hard to separate fact from fiction in this particular case where the woman at the center of the case is a pathological liar. It kind of makes everything kind of confusing.

Cathy, California, your question or thought, Cathy.

CATHY, CALIFORNIA (via telephone): Hi, Jane. My question is -- well, first of all I say bring all those witnesses on because today Mr. Ashton was able to turn them all around for the prosecution anyway. But my question is --

MYERS: That`s true.

CATHY: Mr. Baez seems to be very inexperienced. And when this all comes to an end, and if Casey is convicted, she will -- it seems like she will have a good appeal against Mr. Baez for --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ineffective counsel.

CATHY: Yes, there you go. Ineffective counsel -- got it, couldn`t think of that for the life of me. So what do you think about that?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think -- well, look. I have to say this, Jeff Brown, Florida criminal defense attorney, I know Jose Baez. I have had dinner with him a couple of times. And he`s a very nice man.

And I think he`s gotten a very tough case. This is not an easy case to argue. And so he`s been creative. Let`s put it that way.

But do you think that there would be a possibility of Casey if she`s convicted appealing on the grounds of ineffective counsel?

JEFF BROWN, FLORIDA DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I mean creative is one thing, but you just can`t make things up. You can`t promise things you can`t deliver. You have to know the rules of evidence. You have to know the rules of procedure. He doesn`t know any of these things.

This is not just being creative. This is on the border line of being ineffective. And yes, if he gets up there as he has in his opening statement and then tries in a closing argument to argue the same things without putting Casey on the stand, I they he`s going to have a real problem trying to argue that there was a drowning. There`s no evidence to that.

He`s going to have a real problem arguing that there was sexual abuse. There may not be any evidence of that.

If all of that happens, yes. So what will happen if after the appeal --


MYERS: Well, sometimes there is no evidence.

BROWN: Then you can`t argue with it.

But if there is no evidence to it and he denies it, then he`s stuck.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Unless Casey takes the stand.

BROWN: Unless she takes the stand.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I have to tell you --

BROWN: She has to take the stand to be able to argue that.

Michael Christian, to be in that courtroom today, I have to say, it was like there was a big elephant in the room, as they say. It is like, whoa, you think.

Wow. This young lady who`s sitting there and from the perspective I was looking, she looked tiny. I wish I had binoculars. She was just sitting there and I was -- you could see her better on TV.

And I`m thinking this woman at the center could clear everything up. Why doesn`t she just take the stand? It is like the big elephant in the room. Is that (INAUDIBLE), I hope not.

CHRISTIAN: It does. Absolutely true. However you`ve got to remember as everybody has said so often since this trial started. She has lied and lies and lied. How could you ever believe her? She may tell you the absolute truth on the stand but how could you ever believe her? I`m not sure jurors would be able to sort it out. I`m not sure I could sort it out.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Listen, prosecutor Jeff Ashton kept challenging the testimony that Caylee`s remains were in the woods for just two weeks. His point was, after such little time, how did the bones become buried inches -- four inches below the dirt?

So check this exchange out. It`s pretty great.


JEFF ASHTON, PROSECUTOR: Wouldn`t that indicate pretty conclusively that the skull had been there a whole lot longer than two weeks?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or a dog buried it.

ASHTON: A dog buried it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They do. As do coyotes. I don`t know if you have those here.

ASHTON: We`re not blessed with coyotes out of everything. Thank you very much Doctor.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Danette Myers, prosecutor in the Lindsay Lohan case. Sometimes a moment can define a defense case. And that moment was not a good moment. Let`s hope they don`t define the case by that moment.

MYERS: I would agree, Jane. The prosecutor`s question was right on. The witness just really her credibility called into question. A dog buried the skull. That is not believable and I guarantee you if this prosecution team picked a smart, logical-thinking jury, they`re convicting, they`re convicting Casey Anthony based upon everything I`ve heard in this case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I will never, ever, ever, ever predict what a jury is going to do. Because I have to say that after the Michael Jackson case, when everybody was -- 90 percent of the people were convinced he`s going to be convicted of everything and then they acquitted him on everything. I will never make a prediction again.

In fact, the night before I didn`t make a prediction. I said, I can`t figure this out.

I have to say this, the prosecution has been very clever, Michael, because what they have done is in their cross examination they have put up some very graphic photos that I was able to see today for the first time that the general public cannot see. And there was the photo of the skull. And you were there. And I was there.

The skull is a photograph like this and you see the roots growing all through it and we watched it for 15 minutes sitting up there. Casey is like this, she doesn`t want to see it.

But that story -- a picture tells a story, a thousand words. It says everything you need to know. We can`t show you the picture but it is this beautiful little girl and her skull. Unbelievable.

CHRISTIAN: Yes. And it is also amazing because Dr. Warner Spitz, he testified on Saturday. He said the skull photographed at the scene shot from above down, showed some stray hair on the top. And then a similar photo shot at the medical examiner`s office from the top on down. Obviously, the hair had been moved. Somebody had moved the hair.

I`ve seen both of the photos and I have to say it looks like the same hair to me. I really don`t know where --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s like a Rorschach Test. Everything -- you can just -- it tells you more about yourself when you look at that photo. But it is very tragic. It brings it home. This is a tragedy.

Up next, an inside look at the Casey trial. We`re going to talk to the woman in charge of what goes on outside Judge Perry`s court and she`s got a story to tell, that`s for sure.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a walking, living soap opera. All the characters from the prosecutors, defense attorneys, people giving testimony, are almost like celebrities. To be part of it, I`ll always remember it.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let him go. Let him go. Let him go. Let him go.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You put him in a headlock. You put him in a headlock. You put him in a headlock. You put him in a headlock. I saw it.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Fists were flying on Friday outside the Casey Anthony trial. And all over a place in line for seats inside this court, where everybody wants to be. This trial has turned the Ninth Judicial Circuit Courthouse in Orlando upside down.

On top of all the fighting, when they do get tickets, some are turning around and selling them for cash. Can you believe it? Scalpers at a murder trial?

Joining me now is Karen Levey, the spokesperson for the courthouse, along with "In Session`s" Michael Christian.

Karen, first of all, thank you for joining us. And I`m going to be nice to you. I know you were saying be nice. Be nice. Of course, we`re going to be nice.

You`re not responsible for the behavior of those -- can I say clowns. But you`ve taken steps. First of all, did you expect this kind of reaction when you were preparing for this case?

KAREN LEVEY, SPOKESPERSON, 9TH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT COURT: You know we really didn`t. I think we expected media interest. We just weren`t expecting the level of interest from the public to come out and just stand in line to get a seat in the courtroom.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: When you started seeing the first lines, I found it a little shocking, arriving here yesterday and seeing these folks on line where they have their coolers and they practically set up camp there. Were you shocked? What was your reaction?

LEVEY: You know, I think everybody was surprised. Everybody, all the TV stations were running it live. It was on the Internet. It was everywhere. We were just surprised that the people wanted to get inside that courtroom. We were -- it is still surprising to me.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re part of history. But just remember this, when the trial ends, all these people are going to pack up and leave so fast that the person who sells coffee down the block is going to go into a deep depression. I can tell you that.

The fact that seats to this trial were being sold blows my mind out. This brawl, this is the running and we always have the guy with the neck brace who gets into the lead here. But there was another situation where this, this -- fistfights broke out because some people were cutting in.

I can also tell you that I spoke to a woman who bought a ticket on Craigslist from one of the people involved in here. And she knew that that`s what was behind the fight, some people were standing in line.

You`ve made some changes to make sure that all of those shenanigans are cut out. Tell us what you`ve done.

LEVEY: First off it was impossible for someone to buy a ticket on Craigslist because we issue them day of. And the only way they could have done that was to come back later in the afternoon. So a lot of the rumors that were flying, that tickets were being sold and some of those things were impossible.

But we did make changes as soon as we realized it just warranted it. And when we did that, people come in, line up and then return the next day. But we don`t even give them a ticket then because we assumed that they might be sold or the like. So we just take their names.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The reason I said it is I talked to a woman I know who actually bought a ticket on Craigslist. Now, it doesn`t mean she got a ticket. She paid for one.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Things fell apart at the other end, namely, this insanity.

There is no telling how much this trial is going to cost at the end of the day once this is finally over. But right now, CNN is estimating it is going to cost or it has cost $361,000, ok, since May of last year. Tell us what the big costs are, if you can, Karen.

LEVEY: Well, that $361,000 was an estimate. It is an estimate of jury sequestration costs and only jury sequestration costs. It was designed for the 20 jurors that would have been sequestered; so we`re overestimate. There`s only 17 jurors.

It includes all the transportation, lodging, security, meals, that sort of thing for the jurors over an eight-week course.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me ask you, Michael Christian because we see this judge, he`s cracking down. You think is he just a tough judge who doesn`t want to be remembered like Judge Ito in the O.J. Simpson case where they had people on late night talk shows dancing like the dancing Itos. He doesn`t want that to define him in a bad way. But he`s also under financial pressure.

CHRISTIAN: He is. He`s definitely under final pressure. The state of Florida is not in a great financial situation, like so many jurisdictions. And he doesn`t want to be remembered as Judge Ito. And I think, frankly, most judges don`t want to be remembered as Judge Ito.

But this is a judge that is imminently fair and I`ve been so impressed with how concerned he is, how solicitous he is of these jurors. He`s very concerned about their sequestration. He knows this is an incredible hardship for them. He does not want to waste their time.

So absolutely he wants to get this thing going. He doesn`t want any dead time. He wants this to be over so these folks can get back to their families and get on with their lives again.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: He`s fabulous. I love him. And I love how he stays so calm when he`s scolding the lawyers. I have to learn how to do that. We can learn a lot from this guy.

More Casey Anthony developments inside court with the lady here.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How far have you traveled to be here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: From Minneapolis, Minnesota. It is the only reason why I came to see the Casey Anthony case.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I feel very emotionally attached at this point. I`ve not missed any of the coverage on this trial. It is so much so it actually inspired me to apply for law school.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: This trial is almost cult-like with its fan following. I covered the Michael Jackson trial and we saw a lot of fans there. I`m seeing some striking similarities.

And I have to say, we`re going to ask some questions to Karen Levy. She`s a spokesperson; she handles the jurors. Here is a question I got from Michael Christian because he has that kind of mind. He wants to know, are there conjugal visits allowed when the jurors have that time to meet with their loved ones?

LEVEY: Sunday afternoons the jurors have an opportunity to meet with their families and they`re private visits. But they could be, you know, children, moms. They could be grandparents. They could be anybody meeting.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. Now, I want to know what is going to happen during the verdict. We talked about the Michael Jackson trial. When I cover that, most absolutely nerve-wracking moment of my life was the day that everybody jumped out of their seats at once when we heard, there`s a verdict. And it was nerve-wracking.

How are you going to handle that? How much time are we going to get? And how are you going to organize all the thousands of people who`s going to want to get in that courtroom for the verdict?

LEVEY: Judge Perry has not totally made a decision yet on it. But we`re looking at about a 30-minute lead time for members of the media and the public to get into the courtroom.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Just 30 minutes?

LEVEY: Just 30 minutes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How long will they deliberate? In other words, could I be somewhere at midnight? I`d probably be in my hotel room but --

LEVEY: Judge Perry is very concerned. And he knows that -- he wants to run regular business hours. So it will be pretty much 8:00 to 5:00, 8:00 to 6:00, then the jurors will go home or go back to the hotel, have dinner. That sort of thing. So there won`t be a midnight verdict. There won`t be a --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, they`re not allowed to talk among themselves about the case. But they have come up with questions, haven`t they? So if they`re not allowed to talk among themselves, how do they come up with questions?

LEVEY: An individual juror could write down a question that they -- they wish to have a cheeseburger or that they have something they have on their mind and then --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Or maybe a veggie burger. Go ahead.

LEVEY: Maybe. And the questions are brought to the judge.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s it. It is not like they`re talking -- is there any monitoring to see that they`re not talking?

LEVEY: Well, other -- the deputies are with them, Orange County Sheriff`s Office is responsible for court security, and they`re with them 24 hours a day. But, again, you have to trust the jurors to a certain point in any case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So there is a level of trust?

LEVEY: Absolutely.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Any sense that this sequestration is getting to them? Is there any kind of complaint, like, I mean, honestly, it is mind-numbing in some level. It is just absolutely mind-numbing to have sit there and then walk out. It seems like there is more time spent arguing outside of the jury`s presence in this case than in front of the jury.

LEVEY: Well, Judge Perry`s very mindful of the fact that these people are have been away from home for five weeks, they`re in hotels. They`re not living their normal life. He`s encouraging -- he`s pushing the case along.

As far as we know, the jurors are very happy. We have had no complaints. We haven`t lost a juror. It is really going well. Things are really going well.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you have done an excellent job. I hope we were nice to you.

LEVEY: You were nice.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But hang on. We`re going to have some final thoughts in a second. You are really, really fantastic. And so these are all questions people want to know about. It is not a criticism. It is praise for you and your court.

All right. Hang tight. We`re going to get some more thoughts from Karen in just a moment. She`s the lady in charge of the whole shebang.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m here with "In Session" producer Michael Christian and the woman in charge of this entire extravaganza, Karen Levey. I think a lot of people want to know about Internet access and the jurors. Tell us about that.

LEVEY: The jurors have a common room that they can, you know, that they socialize in together. And in that room there is some computers and on those computers, jurors are allowed to pay their bills, order prescriptions, things like that. But it is all under the supervision of a court deputy.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What about television? They have a TV in their hotel rooms.

LEVEY: They do.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Every time I turn on the TV here, up comes Casey Anthony.

LEVEY: They do limited stations, everything from like TNT to ESPN, they can watch. Shows that normally have news are not authorized by the court.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re saying that they literally change the -- they change the channels that are available?

LEVEY: That`s correct.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s like the opposite of having all the channels including SHOWTIME and HBO.

Ok. Thank you so much.

LEVEY: You`re welcome. Thank you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. "Nancy Grace" is up next.