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Casey Anthony Murder Trial; Interview With Andrew Zimmern

Aired June 21, 2011 - 22:00:00   ET


ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, defense forensic experts give their take in court as legal observers begin predicting Casey may dodge a first-degree murder conviction. So is the prosecution botching it, or is the defense that good?

And with Casey`s parents listening to harrowing testimony every day and her father and brother being accused of sexual abuse by the defense, how does the family move on from this?

Plus, as Tracy Morgan`s apology drags on, Joy looks at where we draw the line in comedy. That and more starting right now.

JOY BEHAR, HOST: More drama today in the Casey Anthony murder trial. The judge slammed Casey`s attorney, Jose Baez, and a botanist revealed how long she thought Caylee`s remains were at the recovery spot.

Here now to discuss this are Linda Kenney-Baden, former Casey Anthony defense team member, and HLN legal contributor; Marcia Clark, former approve in the O.J. Simpson trial and author of "Guilt by Association"; plus Ryan Smith, host of "In Session" on TruTV who is outside the courthouse in Orlando.

Ryan, while the jury was -- this is so interesting -- while the jury was out today, the prosecution mentioned an inmate of Casey`s whose son drowned in a pool and whose grandfather found him. Sound familiar? Does the prosecution -- wait -- suspect that Casey may have stolen her story?

RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION": That`s -- that`s what the theory is out there.


SMITH: And this is stunning stuff. Basically what happened was this woman was in jail -- her name is April Whalen. She was in jail in June in the same dorm area where Casey was. And this is June of 2009. We spoke to the Orange County jail about this and they couldn`t confirm whether or not Casey and April Whalen had a conversation.

But the bottom line is you`re right, her child died by drowning. In her case, her father called police, called 911. But the young child couldn`t be saved.

So the theory out there is did either Casey tell her something, or did they have a conversation? And the other theory could be did Casey maybe overhear the story and used it as her own? She can only be brought up as a rebuttal witness to rebut the defense`s case. But if the defense offers something to talk about what Casey was doing or the accident theory, she could come into play.

BEHAR: Well, Linda, what do you think about this?


BEHAR: You worked for the defense team.

KENNEY-BADEN: For 22 months.

BEHAR: Why did you leave, by the way?

KENNEY-BADEN: Because she went indigent. In Florida they do not pay out-of-state counsel for pro-bono time for their expenses. So I have to be sitting there for about three months --

BEHAR: For free.

KENNEY-BADEN: For free. But besides that, here`s the problem with that. And this is why the prosecution can`t use it and the judge can`t allow it. Because then the attorneys have to be called to say when did Casey Anthony tell you about the drowning, and you can`t have that breach of attorney-client privilege. It can`t happen. It`s not going to happen.

If this judge lets it in, just add it to the list of reversible errors.

BEHAR: Ok. So they`re not going to let this in. We know about it. The people watching know about it. The jury doesn`t know.

KENNEY-BADEN: Does that mean -- and I don`t know if Ryan has the answer, is this woman in jail for manslaughter because she didn`t watch her child, or is she in jail for something else?

BEHAR: I don`t know. Ryan, do you know what she` sin for? April?

SMITH: We don`t know for sure what she`s in for. I don`t believe it`s related to the child`s deaths. She`s been in and out of jail a few times on charges like petty theft. But I`ll check on that. But as far as we know right now, it`s not because of her child`s death.

BEHAR: Ok. All right. Next, a forensic botanist took the stand this morning. Listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you tell me whether or not you have formed an opinion as to the shortest period of time that the remains of Caylee Marie Anthony could have been at the scene in which they were found?

DR. JANE BOCK, FORENSIC BOTANIST: Yes. Two weeks approximately.


BEHAR: Marcia, the prosecutor got the botanist to say that the remains could have been there for much longer than two weeks. So who won that round? The state or the defense?

MARCIA CLARK, PROSECUTOR IN THE O.J. SIMPSON CASE: I call it a wash here. I don`t know that the botanist can really be that specific. I think she did as good as she could. It`s more credible for her to admit that she can`t be that precise about how long it was there. So ultimately I think it`s a wash. I`m not sure it helps or hurt either one.

BEHAR: Now, Linda, you were actually mentioned in court today. Did you know that?

KENNEY-BADEN: Oh, I was? No, I didn`t.

BEHAR: Let`s watch it.



JEFF ASHTON, PROSECUTOR: Where on this photograph of the skull?

BOCK: To the best of my understanding, because I was not there with someone who absolutely -- right in here.

ASHTON: Who was that?

BOCK: Linda Baden?



KENNEY-BADEN: I made a big impression on her, didn`t I?

BEHAR: Linda -- did you spend time with this botanist?

KENNEY-BADEN: Yes. I was there when she was there. I had actually been in some of the evidence with her when she was there.

BEHAR: I see.

KENNEY-BADEN: But you know, she was never called to say, we can say - - like the prosecution, this is what happened. We can just say this is what science can tell us. It could be two weeks; it could be two months or three months. I would anticipate the defense is continuing that, it`s the science and the honest science as opposed to the scientist who says I can tell you this.

BEHAR: I see. Ok. Now Marcia, the judge slammed Jose Baez saying that he was willfully -- that he willfully ignored a court order by not disclosing the witness`s options. Do you agree with the judge?

CLARK: I do. I do. Look, the judge made an order. You know, you have to turn over everything you`ve got. And you can`t hide what you`ve got by simply having a witness give you a non-report that says absolutely nothing and then spring it on the prosecution and say, well, but he was on her list. You have the report.

But when the report says nothing, it offers no opinion, that`s not discovery. That`s fighting the spirit of it if not exactly the letter of the order. So, you know, this trial by ambush is not going to be something this judge is going to tolerate.

And he landed on Jose and said, you know, didn`t do this, you`re just causing more delays, and he did. That is the problem.

And you have a sequestered jury, that can`t be forgotten. That`s very important. The jury cannot be there forever. The longer they stay sequestered, the worse it is for everyone in terms of their ability to pay attention and focus in on this case.

BEHAR: And will the jury blame Baez if it`s extended? That doesn`t help the defense.

KENNEY-BADEN: It doesn`t help the defense, but here`s what`s going to happen. The judge put him under the pale of having contempt and losing his license. He can`t represent her in any possible capacity. Joy, this case is going come back. There`s so much in here that hasn`t happened before that could be reversible error.

BEHAR: Now the defense brought in DNA, a DNA expert all the way from Holland today. Why from Holland? Why couldn`t they find a DNA expert her?

KENNEY-BADEN: He`s the leader in the field of what`s called touch DNA and most American labs don`t do it. Only the New York City medical examiners do it. He was actually brought in to rebut one point. When you have alleged body fluids in the car you should be able to get DNA. And that`s the stuff that he couldn`t rebut because the judge wouldn`t let it in.

BEHAR: Why not?

KENNEY-BADEN: He said that there hadn`t been notice as Marcia said, and maybe there will be a fry hearing next week. But again, this is a death penalty case. You got to give counsel, even if they make a mistake, even if it`s intentional mistake, room because ultimately it`s the person who`s the defendant`s life at stake.

BEHAR: Let me ask you an irrelevant question. Who pays for this guy to come in from Holland?

KENNEY-BADEN: It -- I don`t know whether he was funded by the taxpayers on the accreditation or whether he was here already because he does have some work here, and -- and coincided.

BEHAR: Ok. Because this is all pro bono; everybody`s doing this work for pro bono or --

KENNEY-BADEN: Or very reduced fees approved --



Ok. Ryan, the prosecution says that they may have evidence on a hard drive that directly refutes the defense`s theory that Caylee drowned. Do you know what that is? Do we know anything about that?

SMITH: No. We`re still finding out more information about that. What the prosecution was alluding to today was that they had information about the day the defense claimed that Caylee drowned, and they didn`t want to share that information, but the big deal was Jose Baez came back and said, well, you guys didn`t provide me with that specific information. Instead, you just gave me a hard drive of everything on the Anthony computer.

And he termed it as it`s like looking through a stack of 50 phonebooks to try to find the information. So he accused the prosecution of having a discovery violation. The judge wasn`t buying it. He basically said, look, he gave you these records. It`s your job to look through them, especially as it concerns the date that you said that Caylee drowned.

BEHAR: Ok. Now what about the detective Yuri Melich? He was back on the stand again today. What did he have to say?

SMITH: Well, he talked more about the different methods that he used to collect evidence. And one thing that Jose Baez tried to corner him on was the idea that he didn`t search the home in depth after the time when he found out that there might be chloroform or other aspect involved.

So the idea for the defense to call him up was just a pushback on his testimony a bit, and I don`t think it had a significant impact on the case.

BEHAR: Ok. Linda let me ask you a question. All this kind of bad behavior on Baez`s part, he has been really -- ticking the judge off like crazy. He`s coming with a few crazy theories, ok.

KENNEY-BADEN: Yes. It also goes to show that this is a three- dimensional chess game. This is a chess match. If you`re searching for the truth, no matter what mistakes he makes, let the evidence that`s important in. If you can show that you should be able to get DNA from body fluids in a trunk, let it in. Let the jury hear it. Don`t rely on the lawyers.

BEHAR: So you`re annoyed with the judge?

KENNEY-BADEN: I`m actually annoyed with the judge because I don`t think that he has given Casey Anthony the fair trial she should be getting.

BEHAR: Ok, Marcia, last word? Somebody wants the last word out there?

CLARK: I`ll take it.


SMITH: Give it to Marcia.

CLARK: I`ll always take it. That`s my job.

No, I think the judge is being very fair. It`s important here to remember something. We have rules of discovery for a reason, and that is to allow everyone a fair shot at going through the evidence, figuring out what the weak points are and saying them. When you deprive somebody of that, you`re not giving the jury the full truth. It`s not fair.

BEHAR: Ok Ryan, last word? Last, last word?

SMITH: I agree with Marcia on that one.

BEHAR: Ok thank you for the minority.

CLARK: All right.

BEHAR: We`ll have more on the trial in just a minute.


BEHAR: And we are back talking about the Casey Anthony trial. Every day George and Cindy Anthony sit in that courtroom and listen to the testimony presumably thinking their daughter somehow played a role in their granddaughter`s death.

So how do they process that? How does the Anthony family move on as this trial gets closer to its conclusion?

Here now to discuss this are Marcia Clark, former prosecutor in the O.J. Simpson trial, and the author of "Guilt by Association"; Judge Alex Ferrer, host of "Judge Alex" and Florida Circuit Court Judge; and Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist and contributor.

Ok Judge, let me start with you. Casey accused her father and her brother of sexually abusing her. Now, if she`s acquitted, can they forgive that, do you think? I`ll ask you the same question, Robi? Can they forgive that, Judge?

JUDGE ALEX FERRER, HOST, "JUDGE ALEX": I think acquitted or convicted, the family is destroyed. I mean you have it from both sides. You have her accusing her brother and her father of sexual abuse. And you also have her -- her mother and father testifying against her in a death penalty case where she could conceivably get the death penalty.

So no matter how you sliced it, the family is pretty much destroyed. And unfortunately I`ve seen that in a lot of cases.

BEHAR: Well, Marcia let me ask you this then. If she is acquitted which is possible -- I mean it is possible. The prosecution may not have proved their case, am I right? And she could be acquitted.

So will the family believe that she`s innocent, do you think? Will anybody believe it?



BEHAR: You know, it reminds me -- excuse me one more thing. It reminds me of the O.J. Simpson case and that`s why I`m going there. Because after he was acquitted, did people then think he was innocent? We know he wasn`t innocent. His children had to go on. Did they think their father did not kill their mother?

CLARK: Well see, we`ll never know, of course, the real answer to that I don`t think. But we all know what we believe about the Simpson case and about his guilt. The children have to at this point as old as they are have been exposed to some of it. Kids still have an amazing ability to be in denial about their parents, and that has to do with survival instinct. The baby has no one but the parent to rely on.

How long that denial stays in place and for how long they fight any knowledge or real awareness of their father`s guilt is anybody`s guess. But there has to be some impact on them and there has to be some impact in terms of their belief in their father in general.

And of course, now he`s in prison again which doesn`t help.

BEHAR: Right.

Do you think Robi that it`s different for children when -- when the parent is accused of murder, possibly more denial on the children`s part?

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, I think there`s probably an inclination for denial. But children want their parents to be the right kind of parent for them. So it really depends. Again, it`s hard to know.

But I would think that there`s a stronger likelihood that the kids would hate a parent if they really believe -- that parent killed off their other parent.

When you`re the parent of a child, there`s still a sense it`s your responsibility to raise your child right. We`re strongly influenced by the environmental theory. Parents can turn a kid into anything if they just do the right thing.

I`m not necessarily in agreement with that. So --


BEHAR: You believe in the bad seed theories?

LUDWIG: I do. I do.

BEHAR: One therapist said that she was just -- she`s born crazy or whatever.


BEHAR: Evil or disturbed.

LUDWIG: I do. I think she is character disordered. I think that there`s a genetic component to that. Perhaps if she had different environmental factors she wouldn`t have turned out quite the same way. Listen -- there are sociopaths that are successful.


LUDWIG: They`re more in the white-collared criminal variant or form.

BEHAR: But this is -- this is an extreme case of murdering her own child.

LUDWIG: This is an extreme case, right. So I think it`s more likely that the parents would say we have a mentally-ill daughter.

CLARK: Right.

LUDWIG: She was doing whatever she needed to do to survive. And as parents it`s our job to try to protect her.


Marcia, they do know that she is a pathological liar even if they can deny that she killed the child. So that`s going to be a hard one to get past, don`t you think?

CLARK: I do. I mean I think the parents are going to be much more likely to ultimately believe what they believe. And they believe it now, that she killed the daughter. You noticed that Jose -- I mean, excuse me, that George did not come forward and say, yes, the baby drowned and I found the baby.

They are not buying into the defense which tells me that they very likely do believe she`s guilty.


CLARK: But it`s true, they could certainly assimilate that knowledge with the understanding that she`s mentally ill. She is sociopathic. And there`s nothing to be done about it.


Now, let`s talk about if she gets the death penalty, because that is even more extreme. Cindy made the -- the mother, she made the 911 call. So let me talk to the Judge. Do you -- how much guilt do you think -- this is really a shrink question but I`m going ask the judge this question.

How much guilt do you think Cindy might have? She`s the one who made the call and triggered the whole thing.

FERRER: I can`t -- I can`t imagine being in that situation. Number one: being a parent who has to testify against your own daughter in the trial for of the murder of your granddaughter. That`s got to be horrible. Being the one who made the phone call that started the entire ball rolling, I mean, I don`t know how you live with that.

And I know if we get to the penalty phase in this case you will see her parents on the stand begging for her life. They`re not going to want her to get the death penalty obviously. And they will go on the stand and beg the jury not to give her the death penalty.


FERRER: And you made -- you also brought up a good point. You compared it to O.J. Simpson. The difference is that O.J. Simpson, while he had to face people on the street who were calling him murderer every day, he didn`t have to face any physical assault because he`s a big guy. And frankly, a guy who`s that big who is accused -- or believed to have killed two people with his bare hands, people are going stay off.

She doesn`t have that fear factor in her favor. And she is accused of having killed a child which brings up even more emotion. So she`s going to have it really rough if she`s acquitted compared to O.J.

BEHAR: Ok. We`ll have more on this in just a minute. Don`t go away.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, what compels an actor from "Lost" to marry a 16-year-old aspiring country singer? We`ll have all the bizarre details.


BEHAR: We`re back talking about the Casey Anthony murder trial and the family dynamic now, which is an interesting part of the case.

Judge, you`ve had cases that have torn families apart, am I right?

FERRER: Absolutely, absolutely.

BEHAR: How does this case compare to some of the other cases you`ve handled?

FERRER: Well, I mean this one is different because we`re getting to see everything outside of court. And usually you only see what goes on inside a court because you don`t have people, you know, with cameras following the family at home and going -- getting into their background.

But that`s -- that`s the point that criminals really don`t think about. They think about, oh, well, if I break into all these homes or if I commit these armed robberies, if I get away with it, great. If I get caught, I can do the time.

What they don`t think about is how this is going to affect their wife. How it`s going to affect their kids, their kids that lose the father. Without the income they lose their home, or their apartment or whatever. They become homeless. All that stuff which sometimes leads them to get involved in drugs.

All of those factors that come from committing a crime, the criminals typically don`t think about. But as a judge, we see it in court happen all the time. We see -- I`ve seen some very sad moments. I had a case where a woman`s daughter was kidnapped. She disappeared. She started receiving calls two weeks later from a guy saying I have your daughter, I`m using her as a sex slave, I`m abusing her, and all this stuff.

And the calls continued for 21 years. And it ripped her apart. Her and her husband had to live with these calls every week, two week, no later than three months apart for 21 years. And finally they caught the guy who was making the calls. It was a United States customs agent.

He didn`t have anything to do with her disappearance. He just got off on making these calls. And what I got to see was, her life was ripped apart. Her and her husband lived day to day, from phone call to phone call, chasing across the country trying to find if it was true and find their daughter.

Then his wife and daughter were ripped apart. They got to come to court and see what their husband and father did, and you would see them in court crying every day.

BEHAR: Did they ever find the girl?

FERRER: So the devastation of the family.

BEHAR: Now, I`m intrigued by this case. Did they ever find the missing girl?

FERRER: They never found the girl. It`s the subject of a book called "Without a Trace". They never found the girl. It`s widely believed that a gang of motorcycle gang going through Coconut Grove in Miami picked her up, took her out to the everglades. They were partying. She offended somebody and they killed her in the everglades.

And the reason they believed that to be true is that was one of the initial rumors, and a biker on his deathbed in New York told his girlfriend that`s what happened but refused to talk to the police when they went out there.

BEHAR: Oh, there`s so many terrible stories out there.

You know, to his point about tearing the family apart, the father, George Anthony, attempted suicide back in 2009 after he found out that the child was dead. Based on that, how might the death penalty for Casey affect George? Do you think he would try to kill himself again?

LUDWIG: Well, he certainly would be vulnerable to depression or having certain stressors or not taking care of himself where he could be vulnerable to an early death. You have to remember that this father is also a crime victim. And he doesn`t benefit from the support groups or people, you know, lending their emotional support to him.

He`s almost viewed as a villain. Is he a potential molester? And who is he? What kind of father is he to give birth to this daughter who probably offed his grandchild? It`s a very sad situation. A lot of guilt. Because he probably knew there was something wrong with his daughter very early on and didn`t do anything about it.

BEHAR: Yes. Do you think it`s easier for the parent to forgive if they decide that she`s mentally ill?

LUDWIG: Yes. Yes.

BEHAR: Ok. Thank you, everybody. We`ll be back in a minute.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up next on The Joy Behar Show, controversy erupts after one of the actors from "Lost" marries a 16-year-old aspiring country singer. We`ll have all the details.


BEHAR: 51-year-old actor Doug Hutchison, listen to this, from the TV show, "Lost," married 16-year-old Courtney Stodden in Las Vegas this past May. And even though he`s 51 and she`s 16, they say it`s true love. He vowed to go to her prom, and she vowed to go to his prostate exam.


BEHAR: I hear the ceremony was beautiful. He came down the aisle in a black tux, and she was in a little red wagon. Here to discuss this and other pop culture events, are Sarah Bernard, host of "The Thread" on Yahoo. Jay Thomas, actor and Sirius XM Radio host, and Stefanie Wilder-Taylor, comedian and author of "I`m Kind of a Big Deal."

So, guys, what could these two possibly have in common? Besides that, you know, she studied CPR, I heard.

SARAH BERNARD, HOST, THE THREAD ON YAHOO: First of all, she is not 16 years old. There is no way. I mean, she makes Britney Spears look like she`s 5. This woman looks like --

BEHAR: Do we have video?


JAY THOMAS, ACTOR/SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: There`s a picture of her -- yes.

BERNARD: She looks so much older than that. I find that more difficult to believe than the fact that they`re even together. But what they do have in common is she -- I mean, he has a management company called Dark Water. And guess who`s one of his clients?

BEHAR: She is.


BEHAR: Oh, so that`s the real issue here? But did you see the video?

STEFANIE WILDER-TAYLOR, COMEDIAN: I think that`s her wedding video.

BERNARD: That is just pure class.

BEHAR: I don`t want to be mean, but the girl is aggressively talent free. Have you seen the video?

THOMAS: Yes. I figured that they had to have the reception like at Abercrombie in the mall, and he promised to love her and she texted him yes. I don`t know --

BEHAR: Exactly what happened.

THOMAS: First of all, at a certain -- you know, I go to bed early. How does he stay up with her, is my -- how would you stay up late? I have kids that age, they want to be up all night.

BEHAR: I know, well, in this case he`s having sex with her all night.

THOMAS: Well, then that should make him go to bed even sooner --


BERNARD: Apparently it`s fine with her parents, because they made the most lovely--


THOMAS: Read the father`s statement. This is my favorite.

BEHAR: The father`s statement -- by the way, the father is four years younger than he is. Than the husband. OK? And he gave the marriage his blessing. He said, "every father can only pray to have such a man behind their daughter." What kind of man is that who would say he approves of this kind of relationship?

THOMAS: That`s a pretty honest statement, I might add. Come on --

BEHAR: Honest?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He probably gave him an autographed headshot.

THOMAS: He didn`t say on top of, he said behind -- so-- you know--

BEHAR: Whatever floats your boat. OK, Jay? Go ahead.

WILDER-TAYLOR: Do you think that guy was worried at the wedding that the minister would come out and go, hi, I`m Chris Hanson?

BERNARD: Maybe. "To Catch a Predator."

THOMAS: This is what it probably is. He owns that management company. He`s trying to promote her, and this is a promotional thing. This is like Hugh Hefner getting married, which is complete [EXPLETIVE DELETED].

BEHAR: We`ll get to that story in a second. But the mother approves of it also.

THOMAS: Oh, it`s --

BEHAR: Show the video again, because I want you to see just show -- she`s got -- watch how she undulates and everything. Well, in this, she`s not undulating in that shot.

THOMAS: It`s a promotional marriage.

BERNARD: But then the mom said there`s absolutely nothing plastic about my daughter.

BEHAR: Oh, please.

BERNARD: Which I also thought was very sweet.

BEHAR: That`s (inaudible) silicone, I`m sorry.


BEHAR: There it is. Now, I thought the mother said she was a good Christian girl.

THOMAS: Oh, stop it.


BEHAR: The mother said she`s a beautiful girl, she has real breasts, real lips, and she`s not plastic.

THOMAS: Do you feel as though you`re being used as a promotional tool for this girl?

BEHAR: Right now?


THOMAS: Yes, absolutely, all of us are. It`s absolute nonsense.

BEHAR: OK, well, then let`s move on.

THOMAS: Yes, let`s get out of it. I`m sick of it.

BEHAR: According to his former twin lovers, 85-year-old Hugh Hefner has gone deaf from too much Viagra. Now the girls have to shout sweet nothings in his ear. Oh, Hef, who`s your bunny? Who`s your bunny?


WILDER-TAYLOR: Do you think he`s actually hard of hearing, or do you think he just got sick of pretending he cares what they`re talking about?


BERNARD: That`s a tough one. But they said he has to wear a hearing aid. He often is losing his memory. He can`t remember the name of their dog. I mean, now-- I was feeling bad for --


BERNARD: No, I was feeling bad for Hugh that she walked out. But now I`m thinking, she probably was like, I don`t want to deal with this, this isn`t attractive.

THOMAS: He`s had so much Viagra, his penis is now a foldout. That`s --


THOMAS: At a certain point, it stops working. It`s just a big--

BEHAR: Would you rather be able to have sex or be able to hear?

THOMAS: Sex. I want to have--

BEHAR: You`d rather have sex?

THOMAS: There`s nothing else I really need to hear, to be honest. I`ve heard everything I want to hear.

BEHAR: For the rest of your life?

THOMAS: Yes. I mean, people always say, would you like to meet my friend? No, I don`t want to meet new friends, I don`t want to hear anything new. I would rather get laid than hear things.

WILDER-TAYLOR: It`s so attractive for the women in your life when you have those big hearing aids --

THOMAS: I wouldn`t wear those. I would just nod like I do now.

BEHAR: Do you think that the person who`s -- whoever is having sex with Marlee Matlin is possibly the luckiest guy in America?

THOMAS: Oh, that`s a bad joke.

BEHAR: It`s not a joke, it`s a question.

THOMAS: Marlee is--

BEHAR: She`s deaf. And beautiful.

THOMAS: But she can moan. I mean--


THOMAS: Her husband can hear her moaning. I mean, I know her personally. She never moaned with me, but --


THOMAS: Why did I get in trouble for what I said?

BEHAR: I don`t know. She`s a beautiful girl.

THOMAS: She`s fabulous.

BEHAR: I love her.

THOMAS: And very sexy.


THOMAS: Maybe you`re thinking about the -- the political person.


THOMAS: No, James Carville`s wife who no one wants to be with.

BEHAR: Mary Matalin? Do you think--

THOMAS: This thing has spiraled --


THOMAS: We`re in Tracy Morgan territory.

BEHAR: Well, the woman, Crystal Harris, she dumped Hefner. Do you think that`s why she dumped him? Because he`s hard of hearing? That`s not nice.

THOMAS: She supposedly was given $500,000 to dump him at the altar.

BEHAR: Now, she wanted $500,000.

THOMAS: Oh, she only wanted it.

BEHAR: She was going to sell it to a magazine or a reality show.

THOMAS: I thought somebody offered that.

BEHAR: But nobody really came through. And then she was going to sell herself at the altar saying I`m not getting married. Nice girl.

THOMAS: He would have gone, huh, what?


BERNARD: Then she came out saying the real reason was, she didn`t want to share him with other women.

BEHAR: Yeah.

THOMAS: Oh my God.

BERNARD: Like the twins.

BEHAR: If Viagra --

THOMAS: How about this -- she goes, I don`t want to marry you, he goes, I do. What happened?

BEHAR: Now, Jay, that you know the risks of Viagra, will you be taking it?

THOMAS: Sure, yes.

BEHAR: You could lose your hearing?

THOMAS: I don`t care.


THOMAS: I mean, really, do you really want to hear a lot of crap that people say all the time?

BEHAR: Let`s talk about Tracy Morgan. His apology tour rolls on this week. He was back in Nashville, the scene of the crime. Let`s watch him.


TRACY MORGAN, COMEDIAN: I pride myself on 20 years, 18 years of standup of using it to heal people and not hurt. That was my whole thing. And I hurt people with this. So from the bottom of my heart, I apologize to everybody who I offended with my words on stage in Nashville and anywhere else.


BEHAR: I haven`t heard this many I`m sorries since my wedding night. How many times --

THOMAS: That was actually pretty sincere.

BEHAR: But he has apologized a lot now.

WILDER-TAYLOR: He doesn`t even know where he is right now. He thinks he`s on a spaceship.

THOMAS: What do you think he healed when he was a standup? What would you bring there to get healed? What sort of a sore could Tracy Morgan--

WILDER-TAYLOR: He`s magic.

THOMAS: Yes. You would hold up maybe a mole or something and he would heal you.

BEHAR: But do you think he is contrite or is he just trying to save his job at "30 Rock"?

BERNARD: He definitely seems like he`s apologizing too much, but what I was really surprised about was the reaction of other comics. I mean, I thought Tina Fey would say I am glad he apologized and leave it at that, but she really went on and on about how she was upset by what he said, how he has to, you know, if it not for all of the--

BEHAR: The people who--

BERNARD: -- gay and lesbian people that work at "30 Rock"--


BERNARD: -- everything. And then Chris Rock and Wanda Sykes actually came out--

BEHAR: What did they do?

BERNARD: They said at first, they sort of defended him, and then they really listened to what he said, and they were -- they were really mad.


THOMAS: I think in the midst of all the whatever, he just blurted something out. Who knows --

BEHAR: No, no, no, I`ve heard that that was part of his act. He got caught.

THOMAS: Always?

BEHAR: Thank you guys very much.

THOMAS: Always part of his act?

BEHAR: We`ll be right back.

THOMAS: I`m very angry now.


BEHAR: Like a lot of you guys out there, last night for dinner I had a really nice steak. My next guest probably didn`t. He probably had raw bull testicles or cow urine smoothies. As the host of the Travel Channel`s "Bizarre Foods," that`s what he eats there. Andrew Zimmern circles the globe in search of the world`s strangest foods. Take a look.


ANDREW ZIMMERN, HOST, BIZARRE FOODS: So we topped those sperm-spotted gonads with the lardo, toasted for no more than 15 seconds, and you have Maraya`s (ph) signature smallplate.

The smell of that cured fat when it melts is just fantastic. Fantastic.


BEHAR: It`s really too bad spotted gonads are out of season, isn`t it? His new book, "Andrew Zimmern`s Bizarre World of Food" aims to get young eaters to expand their culinary horizons. I`m happy to welcome to my show the very brave Andrew Zimmern. Welcome to the show.

ZIMMERN: Thank you.

BEHAR: Tell me, what did you eat last night?

ZIMMERN: Chinese food.

BEHAR: Oh, really?

ZIMMERN: Wednesdays night we go out in the neighborhood with another couple and their kids. And we had a great time. I had soft shell crab with ginger and scallion.

BEHAR: Love.

ZIMMERN: Fantastic.


ZIMMERN: Night before, I grilled chicken that my wife marinated in the quintessential sort of Korean scallion, soy, lemon, marinade, and we had asparagus from the farmers market.

BEHAR: So regular food?

ZIMMERN: Regular food. Because that`s what you eat -- I live in Minnesota. So that`s what we eat. We`re out there on the great prairie. Very, very normal food.

However, just a few months ago, you know, when I`m with the Himba (ph) in the hills of Northern Namibia, I`m eating goat cooked with its own skin and everything else that goes with it.

BEHAR: Goat skin?

ZIMMERN: Well, they don`t discriminate.

BEHAR: I could do it if it`s crispy.

ZIMMERN: No, they do it in one of the most unappetizing ways possible. They don`t have a lot of fanfare. The goat is slaughtered. They read the intestines like someone reads tea lives, one of the shamans in the tribe, to make sure that everything is as it should be. And then they cut it all up and they throw it in the pot, except for the liver. The men, the elders of the tribe, eat the liver fried in a little bit of animal fat. The rest of the goat is all put into pots with water, skin, intestines -- uncleaned, by the way -- and it`s just left to boil for hours. Then the whole tribe comes and gathers around these pots, and then certain pieces go to the women, certain to the children. The intestines are for the children. Prime meat for the women, and then men pick at other stuff because they filled up on the liver. It`s amazing.

BEHAR: Where is this?

ZIMMERN: In Namibia.

BEHAR: Namibia.

ZIMMERN: Yes. I`m fascinated by food, and food with a story is the most fascinating. And so I want to learn as much as I can about a culture through the food. And I learn more eating that meal with the Himba people in the northern reaches of the country than I do strolling a museum in Windhawk (ph).

BEHAR: I see, I understand that.

ZIMMERN: Yes, absolutely.

BEHAR: But you know, it is a little bizarre, some of the stuff. What`s with all the penis eating, for example? Who does that? Who does that?

ZIMMERN: Here`s the deal. Many cultures in the world eat snout to tail, which is very posh and popular in fancy restaurants in New York where you get charged a lot of money. The rest of the world has been eating that way for thousands of years and never stops.

BEHAR: Snout to tail?

ZIMMERN: Snout to tail. They eat every part of the animal, including the penis, the balls, whatever. These are foods that started out being born of necessity, and then they become foods that everyone falls in love with culturally, and so they will cook them and eat them.

In some countries, especially Southeast Asia, if you eat the heart of an animal that`s very brave, you`re brave. If you eat the penis of an animal that replicates, it has many children, you`ll have many children or be very strong in the bedroom. You know, so they --

BEHAR: They believe this?

ZIMMERN: They believe this. I have eaten more foods that everybody has said this will be very good for you, to absolutely no effect. I can tell you a lot of that stuff is all psychological, and plays to a whole other set of stories.

But people eat the bull`s penis soup. The Chinese Olympic team eats this every day before practice when they`re --

BEHAR: What is it?

ZIMMERN: Bull`s penis soup.

BEHAR: Bull`s penis soup?


BEHAR: Does Campbell`s make that?

ZIMMERN: They don`t. It`s a Progressive product.

BEHAR: What about the rats? See, I draw the line at rats. It`s one thing to eat a goat`s penis, it`s another thing to eat a rat. Do you remember G. Gordon Liddy?

ZIMMERN: Of course I do.

BEHAR: He said that he ate a rat to prove how macho he was.

ZIMMERN: Correct.

BEHAR: But I mean, how do you eat a rat?

ZIMMERN: They do that in Japan. The men, businessmen, very successful ones, celebrate big deal kills in getamono (ph) bars, where they eat for sport sort of to outchallenge each other. In the wild, rats, you know -- a New York City rat that`s crawling over garbage, don`t ever eat it, don`t even get near it. However, when you`re in the jungles of the Amazon, and the native tribe`s person, a Pilchi (ph) Indian on the Pilchicoa (ph) river system in Ecuador shoots a wild agouti (ph), a big 20- pound jungle rat that`s been eating nothing but dates that have fallen from the tree canopies above, you will have a meal that tastes like pork. And in fact, it would be the best fork-flavored meat you`d ever had. You`d be amazed at how good agouti is in Ecuador. And then your mind starts to tell you, well, I`m going to be a little more accepting about the next rat that comes my way.

BEHAR: I know. But there are a lot of different kinds of rats, like the Norway rat. That`s the city rat, isn`t it?

ZIMMERN: I believe so.

BEHAR: Do they have blue eyes and blonde hair?

ZIMMERN: Here is the thing -- I don`t go near -- I don`t go near stuff that I don`t know really what its pedigree is.

BEHAR: But isn`t the Norway rat the typical rat in the New York City, in the subway?

ZIMMERN: Correct. Never eaten one.

BEHAR: Those you don`t eat.

ZIMMERN: Never eaten one.

BEHAR: What about the fancy rat and the cotton (ph) rat?

ZIMMERN: I`ve eaten rice rats in Thailand that are very similar to the Norway rat. But they live -- they live in a very narrow space. Very clearly defined, and --

BEHAR: So maybe they should not call it rat --

ZIMMERN: Right. I think the name -- here is the thing, it`s psychological. If I said to you we`re going to have bat tonight, you would have a problem with that, and rightfully so. But when we go to the northern reaches of Thailand, the kids are the first ones running to the pot when they hear it`s bat for dinner, because they have no negative associations or connotations with it, and bats are very small ranging animals.

BEHAR: I see. Now, I`m jumping to a whole other topic.

ZIMMERN: You go anywhere you want.

BEHAR: You were apparently a homeless drug addict at one point.


BEHAR: What was that about?

ZIMMERN: It was about the drugs and the alcohol. I grew up here in New York City --

BEHAR: Aren`t you a nice Jewish boy?

ZIMMERN: I am. Nice Jewish boy from New York.

BEHAR: What the hell happened to you?

ZIMMERN: I know, it`s bad. Things got out of hand for me. And I have an addiction to anything. I mean, I really am a victim of the word more. I mean, that`s my thing. And I love bright, shiny objects. And things got really worse over the course of my using years. And eventually --

BEHAR: How old were you during the using years?

ZIMMERN: 14 to 30.

BEHAR: And how old are you now?

ZIMMERN: I`ll be 50 next month.

BEHAR: So 20 years you`ve been sober?

ZIMMERN: Correct.

BEHAR: OK, so--

ZIMMERN: I find myself, you know, all of a sudden I lose my apartment for the umpteenth time, except the difference was no friends were there to take me in. I burned all those bridges. I really was a mess, and everybody who was in my life was definitely in tough love mode and was like, you know, call us when you`re well. And I crashed and burned on the streets of New York. And I became one of those guys squatting buildings, you know, for months and months and months. I lived in an abandoned building in lower Manhattan.

BEHAR: What do you think led to your addiction, besides the fact that you`re an addictive personality?

ZIMMERN: Oh, gosh, these are -- those types of questions take so long to answer. Addiction is a very complex issue. Genetics, is it, you know, family make-up, is it your conditioning as you`re growing up? I think it`s a whole combination of those issues.

I will tell you this -- I did not want to have the life that I was living and I was seeking to escape from it. I know that was a large part of it, even though I had a blessed life. I just -- my -- it was a disease of perception.

BEHAR: Too boring for you?

ZIMMERN: No, it was very exciting growing up in New York in the `70s and `80s. I just -- I had a disease of perception. But it now serves me very well, because my recovery has taught me acceptance and it`s taught me not to practice contempt prior to investigation. So when I go into that jungle and someone is serving me some sort of wild, crazy animal, I don`t think to myself, oh, I need to go running for the nearest pile of power bars.

BEHAR: I see.

ZIMMERN: I`m interested in seeing why it is that in that jungle they eat piranha and grilled jungle rat.

BEHAR: Right. OK, when we come back, I`m going to -- I will maybe taste some of the gonads or whatever you got--

ZIMMERN: It`s sea urchin. You`re going to love it.

BEHAR: Sea urchin?

ZIMMERN: No pressure, but if you try it, you`ll love it.

BEHAR: What about the poor sea urchin? You took its gonads. That`s so wrong.

We`ll have more with Andrew Zimmern when we come back. I`ll try it.



BEHAR: I`m back with Andrew Zimmern, chef and host of Travel Channel`s "Bizarre Foods." OK, tell me what you brought.

ZIMMERN: A blood sausage cooked, delicious, with apples, made by my good friends at Cafe Boulud. Thank you to Daniel, Sam (ph) and Gavin (ph).

BEHAR: You mean they serve that at Boulud`s?

ZIMMERN: Yes. This is wonderful. This is French bourdet noir (ph). It`s absolutely classic and stunning. Would you like to try?

BEHAR: Wait a minute. Not so fast.

ZIMMERN: What do you mean? I`ve been dying to eat this forever. This is fat and blood. Very fresh.

BEHAR: Whose blood?

ZIMMERN: Pig`s blood from Vermont.

BEHAR: So it`s blood and what?

ZIMMERN: Mmm. That`s pork fat.

BEHAR: Pork fat.

ZIMMERN: This is like pate.

BEHAR: And then it becomes that.

ZIMMERN: You roll it out like this and then it becomes that. It`s delicious. The whole world eats bourdet (ph).

BEHAR: This is really scary. Look at this thing. My god.

ZIMMERN: That`s the raw magic. This is the sea urchin gonad taken out of the shell.

BEHAR: Looks like a dog left it here.

ZIMMERN: This is absolutely -- you can see, these little--

BEHAR: What`s this now?

ZIMMERN: This is the sea urchin that we were talking about.

BEHAR: Oh, the gonads.

ZIMMERN: These lobes hang, five or six strips, inside the shell. They`re one of the most prized foods in the whole world. This is -- would you like to try?

BEHAR: No, it`s all right.


BEHAR: What`s this?

ZIMMERN: This is one of my all-time favorite foods. And anyone who is a regular habituee (ph) of a sushi bar knows uni when they see it. This is absolutely gorgeous.

BEHAR: But they are like -- what are they like, pulverized gonads?

ZIMMERN: No, no, the animals has the gonads that hang inside of it. They`re male and female. They are one of those species that have a little bit of X, Y chromosome issues. So both--

BEHAR: Women with gonads, I love it.

ZIMMERN: Kind of, kind of. They share some sex in the clinical sense. And these little gonads hang, and during certain parts of the year, you will actually see a white milk (ph) that`s in them, which is the animal`s sperm.

BEHAR: OK, what is this?

ZIMMERN: Duck tongues.

BEHAR: Oh, a tongue.

ZIMMERN: It`s from a Chinese restaurant called Bowerie Can Ji House (ph) in lower Manhattan.

BEHAR: See, I don`t like a tongue, because I don`t like a food that tastes me while I`m tasting it.

ZIMMERN: Delicious. Spicy with garlic and lemon grass. And then this, this, by the way, if you like tongue --

BEHAR: I like it but not from a duck.

ZIMMERN: How do you know that if you haven`t had one?

BEHAR: I love duck, but I don`t care for tongue, no.

ZIMMERN: And this is derian (ph) that we also picked up down in lower Manhattan.

BEHAR: Ugh, it smells disgusting. Who would eat that?

ZIMMERN: Do you know, it`s one of my least favorite foods. And I`m glad you`re taking a pass, but since I tried the others, this smells like onions and tastes like feet.


BEHAR: It`s really disgusting, Andrew.

ZIMMERN: But it`s arguably one of the world`s most popular foods, so the question then is asked, why do two billion people in Southeast Asia go nuts for this stuff?

BEHAR: Because they`re crazy, that`s why. And starving maybe.

ZIMMERN: One man`s weird is another man`s wonderful. It`s psychological. That smell to westerners like you and I is off-putting. Over there, the sweet stink of a derian is manna from heaven. So it really does beg the question, how do we decide these things?

BEHAR: I prefer a Michael Kors perfume myself.

ZIMMERN: So does my wife.

BEHAR: Get this away from me. Really, it`s gross. His book is called "Andrew Zimmern`s Bizarre World of Food," and you can see bizarre foods Tuesdays at 9:00 p.m. on the Travel Channel. Thank you for watching. Good night, everybody. Anybody wants it? Bon appetit.