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New Attacks on George by Casey`s Defense

Aired June 22, 2011 - 19:00:00   ET



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Casey Anthony`s lawyers go on the attack, desperate to blow holes in the prosecution`s case.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I cannot conclusively determine that there had been human remains in the trunk of the car.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And "People" magazine`s new cover, "Getting Away with Murder?" Why some are saying there`s a good chance Casey could walk.

And where are all those blockbuster defense witnesses, like Roy Kronk?


(on camera) It was in this general vicinity. You see a teddy bear is right over here. I`m taking you from the Anthony home, straight to the scene where little Caylee`s remains were found.

When you actually get here, it gives you a whole new insight into the evidence that`s being presented in court. You`ll see for yourself the area that everybody is talking about.

(voice-over) And we`re taking your calls.

ISSUES starts now.



BELVIN PERRY, JUDGE: Enough is enough.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let him go. Let him go. Let him go. Let him go.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: I overheard her tell Lee that Caylee had been gone for 31 days.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey, where`s Caylee? At least, where`s her remains?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I cannot conclusively determine that there had been human remains in the trunk of the car.

CINDY ANTHONY: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The authorities made it clear this is not a game.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of line. Get out of line.

BAEZ: I know I`m going to butcher the names of these other drugs. Flunis (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dimethyl disulfide.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Alprazolam and Lorazepam (ph), Xanax, klonopin. Benzodiazepine.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don`t underestimate the ability of a jury to disregard everything they don`t understand.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, wow, I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell. I`m so happy to be with you here in Orlando. We`re right outside the courthouse. The courthouse is behind me here. And this is where Casey Anthony is on trial.

And, tonight, wow, we had so much breaking news to tell you about. Extraordinary, absolutely extraordinary day. And there`s breaking news to bring you right off the top. And we can tell you it`s all about George.

Two new attacks on George Anthony by his daughter Casey`s defense team. George Anthony`s attorney has just issued a very stern statement, insisting George did not have an affair with a woman who is now being touted as a possible explosive defense witness.

And then, just a little while ago, get this: Casey`s defense finished deposing an ex-con by the name of Vasco Thompson. And right now, right here, here on the set, Vasco`s attorneys have just arrived from the deposition, just moments ago, and they are here to talk to us on ISSUES. We are first to talk to -- the first show to talk to you and get your real reaction to this bizarre deposition.

The reason I call it bizarre is that Vasco says he has zero connection to this case. And that he is furious that he is being dragged in for what he says is absolutely no reason. So why is the defense doing this? We`re going to have the answer for you in just a moment.

But first, this morning, at 7:30 in the morning, my crew and I went to George and Cindy`s home, just as they were leaving for court. We actually kind of exchanged glances.

I also toured the very location where little Caylee`s remains were discovered. It`s very sad. Let me tell you, it was also a real eye opener. Check it out.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: They say the body was found approximately 19 feet from the road. So let`s count it out. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, approximately in this area. Go down when you walk here. And this whole area was covered by water.

So if this whole area is covered by water, it really doesn`t matter how close to the road it is; it`s totally submerged. And that`s another reason for the degradation of all of the DNA. One of the reasons why there`s not so much forensics in this case.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, it was really fascinating. I`m going to talk a little bit more about my trip to that really tragic scene. And I`m going to tell you all about today`s courtroom battles over crime-scene forensics in just a second.

But first, why was convicted kidnapper Vasco Thompson deposed by the defense today? Jose Baez claims they discovered the ex-con made four calls to George Anthony in July of 2008 on a crucial day, the day before Cindy called 911 to say her precious granddaughter was missing. But Vasco says nonsense, never happened.


VASCO THOMPSON, DEPOSED BY DEFENSE: I have no idea who George Anthony is. I just met him -- seen him on TV. I never talked to George Anthony. And I never -- like I said, I never -- I don`t know him. And the phone number they got in question, I didn`t have that phone number until February of `09.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, I want to welcome to ISSUES Vasco Thompson`s attorneys. They have just arrived from the deposition of Vasco Thompson, by the defense.

And I`ve got to ask you: I don`t understand why this deposition is occurring, gentlemen. I mean, your client says he has proof that he did not own the phone, OK. And yet the defense is still deposing him. Matt, I don`t get it.

MATT MORGAN, VASCO THOMPSON`S ATTORNEY: Jane, you hit the nail on the head when you said this whole situation is bizarre, because it truly is. And perhaps the most bizarre thing about this whole occurrence is the state attorney`s office chose not to participate in the deposition.

And so the deposition went as we expected it to go, fairly uneventful. Vasco gave the same story that we`ve been giving the press and, you know, no real event took place.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But, OK, again, everyone is asking why. Why? Why? If there`s no connection, if the gentleman didn`t own the phone at the time that these calls alleged -- it was a phone number that was owned by somebody else. Why are they hounding this man?

He told me all of this sudden attention has turned his life into a living hell. Let`s listen to Vasco.


THOMPSON: My wife, she can`t sleep.

They`re running at the house, and she feels bad for me. And it`s just -- it`s just been terrible, man. I can`t even tell you how much it`s affected my life. Everybody knows everything now.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, so Vasco Thompson did hard time for kidnapping. But he paid his debt to society. Now he`s trying to move on beyond his past, but the defense insists on keeping him in the public eye. And this is my big issue: it`s misplaced priorities.

So far the defense has had a lot of weak witnesses, about half a dozen somewhat weak witnesses on the stand today. Why are they spending valuable time deposing this guy who has nothing to do with the case at a time when they should be concentrating on the witnesses that they`re bringing to court?

John Dill, you are also the attorney for Zenaida Gonzalez, another person whose life was destroyed by this case. Do you see a connection, a link, a nexus between Zenaida Gonzalez and Vasco Thompson?

JOHN DILL, ATTORNEY FOR VASCO THOMPSON: Inasmuch as the defense throws a name out there, tries to put allegations around it and then tries to back it up or back off it.

Vasco went in today and said he doesn`t know anybody involved in this case, doesn`t know Lee Anthony, Cindy Anthony, Casey Anthony, never talked to George Anthony. And they filed a motion that says that he has a relationship with George Anthony.

So, again, we feel this is just another action of the defense, just throwing a name out there, doesn`t matter what happens to that person, like Zenaida, who`s been dealing with this for three years now, and then see what happens after that. And this is unacceptable.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, there are a lot of people whose lives are being destroyed. When you`re an ex-con and you`re trying to move on, and your wife is trying to move on, and the whole world is watching this case, and you announce to the world, "Oh this ex-con was having phone conversations with George Anthony," even though he didn`t even own the phone at the time, you`re essentially destroying his life.

He has a scarlet letter on him that will really interfere with his ability to function as an American citizen because now everybody knows him again as the ex-con. He was trying to get away from that.

Now, we have other late breaking news. George Anthony is coming out swinging, just a little while ago, against yet another attack on him. He is denying that he had an affair with this Krystal Holloway, a woman who has been touted as a possible explosive witness for the defense. Let`s listen.


BAEZ: You`re going to hear evidence that, while at this public supermarket, passing out flyers for his missing granddaughter, George Anthony met a younger woman by the name of Krystal Holloway. They became close. They started dating, or they had an affair, whatever you want to call it.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, now, George`s attorney just sent us this statement, because this woman could be a witness and some people say she might show up tomorrow. And the attorney says, George never had an affair with Krystal, never took cash from Krystal, and that`s what she`s claiming, and he never discussed Caylee`s case with her.

Got to go out to Joe Episcopo, Florida criminal defense attorney. What do you make of these sort of -- a barrage of attacks on George? I mean, the molestation. He finds the body allegedly. He does the cover-up. He`s involved with this ex-con who doesn`t even have the same phone number. He`s now also having an affair. What do you make of this?

JOE EPISCOPO, FLORIDA CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, obviously they`re trying to attack him and destroy him, and I think it`s reflecting badly back on the defendant, Casey, because there`s really no reason to do that to him.

Remember, the child drowned. That`s the issue. None of these people, Vasco de Gama Thompson or George, killed the child. And that`s the issue. It`s the killing of the child. None of this stuff will make any difference to the verdict.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, listen, the defense thinks this Krystal, who could take the stand, as far as we know -- could be tomorrow -- that she could corroborate their claim that Caylee accidentally died in the family pool. Again, George denies ever speaking to Krystal about this case, but listen to what she says.


KRYSTAL HOLLOWAY, CLAIMS HAD AFFAIR WITH GEORGE: I don`t believe that George picked the body up like they said. I think it was an accident.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did George tell you about that?

HOLLOWAY: That it was an accident that snowballed out of control.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, but Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, apparently, there are these text messages allegedly from George Anthony: "Just thinking about you. I need you in my life." So I don`t know what to believe anymore, Leonard.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, George -- George has gotten himself involved in a couple of escapades of that nature.

By the way, I want to say hi to Joe. I haven`t seen him in almost three years. But anyhow...

EPISCOPO: Good to see you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: While you`re talking, I`m going to say that that`s your opinion. I have absolutely no independent proof that George has been anything but a faithful husband to Cindy. And I see them all the time together, and he certainly looks like a faithful husband at this moment in time, for sure. But continue on with your opinion.

PADILLA: OK, got no problem with that. And the other thing is you got to understand that she is spiteful. Casey is a very spiteful person. And if she can overdose her daughter on chloroform and then turn it to where it looked like it was a drowning, and her dad was involved?

You think about it, these stories came from her lips to her attorney while she was in custody. And there`s no doubt in my mind that they`re going to press that. And she`s going to take the stand, and she`s going to point at her dad and say he carried the body from the pool, and after that, she was afraid of what he would do.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. If that`s a lie, that is the ultimate betrayal. A family destroyed by this young lady.

Tonight, I am taking you to see with your eyes where little Caylee lived and then where she died or was ultimately found. Call me: 1-877-JVM- SAYS. I was at the scene where the remains were found, and I`m going to show you. It`s unbelievable. There`s -- it`s just a fascinating, fascinating look at this.

Plus, where the heck are the defense`s star witnesses? When are they coming on?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go down when you walk here. And this whole area was covered by water. So if this whole area is covered by water, it really doesn`t matter how close to the road it is. It`s totally submerged.




ROY KRONK, FOUND BODY: I`m in the wooded area down by the school. I need you like now. I just found a human skull.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, back live outside the Casey Anthony courtroom here in downtown Orlando.

Just hours ago, right behind me, Casey`s defense team put a half a dozen experts on the stand, and they honed in on evidence found at the site where little Caylee`s remains were recovered. A site I visited today, and I`m going to tell you about that in a little bit.

Their defense experts said a hair found at the crime scene, a single hair, did not match the hair mass from little Caylee`s skeletal remains. Listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was one Caucasian head hair that was found on the collection paper which was microscopically dissimilar to the hairs in the hair mass. This hair is not consistent with coming from Caylee.

LINDA KENNEY BADEN, HLN LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: Who did the stray Caucasian hair on the hair mass belong to? It`s still a mystery.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, well, that`s Linda Kenney Baden, very close. She used to be a member of the defense team, saying this injects an element of mystery. They found a hair, a Caucasian hair that did not belong to anybody that they can find. A mystery hair, with the hair mass that was with the skeleton, particularly the skull. So will the defense say it is Roy Kronk? Could this mystery amount to reasonable doubt?

"In Session`s" Jean Casarez, are they making something of this? I mean, I was in the wooded area today. There`s bottles. There`s cans. There`s garbage. It`s a dump site. This mystery hair, they`re making it very significant. Is it?

JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, TRUTV`S "IN SESSION": Well, we don`t even know the length of it, right? I was assuming a woman`s hair. But now when you`re talking, I`m thinking, gee, Roy Kronk, I guess it could be him.

What I think was significant with the testing of the hair, they didn`t find any poisons, any benzodiapepines, no chloroform, nothing. That, I think, is significant for the defense. But it`s one more thing to cast reasonable doubt for the jury to consider.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, wait a second. This is another hair you`re talking about.

CASAREZ: Yes, I`m talking about the one hair showing signs of decomposition in the trunk. And the other hairs from Caylee.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. So the hair -- the infamous hair that belongs to some member of the Anthony family that the prosecution says is the deceased Caylee Anthony, that was found in the trunk, that showed signs of decomposition, there was an expert who tested that single hair and found that there were no evidence of -- there was no evidence of drugs.

CASAREZ: And the hair mat. You know, there was a lot of hair found with the skull. So those hairs were tested to show no poisons at all, which is significant if you`re thinking chloroform played a role in this.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, buy chloroform, didn`t they say they can`t really test the hairs for chloroform?

CASAREZ: And that`s what we found on cross. That`s right. That hair is not good for testing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. So if hair is not good for testing, this is my point, Joe Episcopo. They brought this person on, oh, no drugs in the hair. But, oh, wait a second. The hair is not a very good test for drugs and that the drugs will go out of the hair, almost immediately. So what`s the point?

EPISCOPO: There is no point. The medical examiner has testified that the child died as a result of four things. The child was not reported missing for 31 days. The body was hidden in a field, in a bag, with duct tape in the vicinity of the mouth. So within a reasonable degree of medical certainty, this is a homicide, which means that the child died at the hands of another person. That`s the issue. Who is that other person? Well, I guess it must be Casey.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Well, I got to tell you, I went to the Anthonys` home today and to the place where little Caylee`s remains were discovered. And I`m going to tell you, it is absolutely extraordinary. We did an experiment. You`re going to see it next.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: One question everybody seems to have is exactly how far is the Anthony home from where little Caylee`s remains were found? It is so close, it`s mind-boggling. We`re going to take you there in real time. Come on. Let`s go.

We are going down Hope Spring Drive, the most average American street you will ever see, just home after home, neat, manicured lawns, and what`s kind of interesting is that there seems to be a lot of law enforcement living here. There`s one car; it says "police." And in a little bit, you`re going to find another car that says "police" or "law enforcement" on it. And we`re just going to go down to the end of the block. Yes, there`s the sheriff. Sheriff vehicle there.

We`re going to down to the end of the block. And at this point we`re going to make a right. And we`re going to leave Hope Spring Drive, and we`re going to get on Suburban. We`ve all heard these phrases over and over again. We`re turning onto Suburban Drive, right now, and you`re going to flip out when you see how close this location is where little Caylee`s body was found. It is literally -- it`s not an exaggeration to say almost in the Anthony family`s backyard. OK.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s it. Right where that "for sale" sign was, right behind it. It took us a minute and ten seconds to drive from the Anthony home to the spot where little Caylee`s remains were found. A minute and ten seconds.

Bounty hunter Leonard Padilla, you`ve been there many times.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I was shocked at how close it was and the implications. How is it possible that law enforcement did not find this body?

PADILLA: Well, you have to understand, when we were there in August, Hurricane Fay came in, and that whole thing looked like one big lake out there. We went by this several times. It looked like a big lake. There`s no way you could have found the body.

Now, let me get back to Kronk. Kronk wasn`t where the body was found on the 11th, 12th and 13th of August. He was looking 72 feet towards the school. If you`re facing the body where it was found, he was 72 feet off to the left. Misguided by some things about where he was supposed to go.

And a lot of people don`t understand that his girlfriend at the time worked for human resources at the jail. And there`s no doubt in my mind, and it`s my opinion -- I don`t want to get you sued. It`s my opinion that there was a conversation between Casey and her attorney overheard. It was overheard.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, all right, well, I`ve got to say, that`s your conspiracy theory. Again.

PADILLA: Opinion. Not a conspiracy. My opinion.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Roy is invited on. His girlfriend is invited on. The person who heard -- allegedly heard this, yes.

I think -- you know what I think? I think he`s a meter reader who walked down this block. And it`s the only isolated area in the entire very residential suburb where there`s not a home. And when you want to urinate, you`re not going to do it in front of a home. You`re going to go into a little wooded area. This is the perfect area to dump a body. It`s a perfect area to go urinate, as well, because it`s the only area that`s not in the view of a home.

PADILLA: Jane...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And so that`s why I don`t understand why authorities didn`t immediately drain that area, just the way they did in the Natalee Holloway case, looking for Natalee.

And we`re going to discuss this more, Leonard. Hang on there. We`re not going anywhere. More on Casey in a second.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get out of the way, cameraman.

CINDY ANTHONY: That`s the newest story out there.


ROY KRONK, METER READER: I`m in a holding area down by the school. I need you like, now. I just found a human skull.

JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: He`s broke. It is time to cash in his lottery ticket.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He probably was the one that had murdered Caylee Anthony or had something to do with it.

BAEZ: She could be 13 years old, have her father`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in her mouth and then go to school and play with the other kids as if nothing ever happened.

GEORGE ANTHONY, FATHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: Shut up. I`m talking. I am talking.

BAEZ: Casey has a brother and he too, wanted to follow in his father`s footsteps. He attempted to also touch his sister.

CASEY ANTHONY: You want me to talk, then give me --

CINDY ANTHONY: All right. I`ll listen to you.

CASEY ANTHONY: -- three seconds to say something.

CINDY ANTHONY: Go sweetheart.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m not in control over any of this.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: So much emotion and dramarama surrounding this case. But that`s definitely not what we`re seeing from the defense case so far. The defense has paraded out forensic expert after forensic expert and for what? Can jurors even stay awake during all this scientific dribble, mumbo jumbo? Where are all the blockbuster witnesses that were promised in the potential defense witness list? These are the ones that could potentially, I would think, plant the seeds of reasonable doubt possibly.

I`m certainly waiting to see what meter reader Roy Kronk who found little Caylee`s body is going to say. He`s listening to the defense witness. Let`s listen.


KRONK: I need you like, now. I just found a human skull.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And, of course, along with that, you got Roy`s ex- wife and he says -- she says that Roy tied her up with duct tape. And then you got this latest breaking news about George`s alleged mistress who claims that he revealed to her that, oh, it was a drowning, an accidental drowning.

And just a little while ago, the attorney for George Anthony issued a statement saying George Anthony`s never had an affair with this woman, Krystal Holloway. George Anthony never took money in any form, either as a loan or a gift from this woman. And George Anthony never confided any of his opinions and thoughts to Krystal Holloway regarding this case and never said anything that she is alleging.

So this was just hot off the presses, what George Anthony`s attorney has said.

I want to go to Mark Nejame, you used to be George and Cindy`s attorney and you also are the one who gave Roy Kronk some award money. But I have to talk about this attack on George. It seems that the entire defense with the weak forensic witnesses on the stand is now honing in on attacking George.

How many ways can they attack him? They`ve accused him of molestation. They`ve accused him of discovering the body and covering up Caylee`s accidental drowning. And now we`re just getting late word that the defense is quite possibly going to bring up this woman who claims she had an affair with George and that George revealed that, oh, the child drowned, and they`re going to put her on the stand. And he`s saying he didn`t have an affair with this woman.

MARK NEJAME, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: Well, this defense seems to have no boundaries. They have thrown one person under the bus after another. And I think that is going to have a really negative impact on the jury. I don`t understand. I think this is a failed defense.

They have gone ahead; they have acknowledged an accidental death. But, yet they have attacked every single thing that reason and logic dictate as well as evidence that shows that this child was, in fact, in a car, in the backyard, and was in the control of her mother the entire time.

So, I`m not understanding where they`re going. I`m very anxious to see these big bombshells that they promised us as you were talking about.

I`m very anxious to see them put Mr. Kronk on the stand. I do not understand how they can sustain this ridiculous theory of defense. They`re going to have to claim that on August 11th, he made a phone call, Kronk to law enforcement and says, I think there is something out there. We all know now that nobody ever came out to check it out.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, they may have come out, but they didn`t go in there and really do their job.

NEJAME: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: In fact, the officer was reprimanded for not responding.

NEJAME: He was fired.


NEJAME: He was fired.

But then think of the logic of it. Then four months later, on December 11th, they`re claiming that he then staged that. That would have meant he would have been -- in a four-month period, a man making about $10.25 an hour would have had to excavate that entire property, take the child`s remains, the bugs, the insects, the roots, the plants and move it into his family`s garage in another county. And then four months later put it back like a perfectly placed piece of a jigsaw puzzle. It is preposterous.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And I never understood why they needed to bring Roy Kronk into this. There are so many theories that it is like a bunch of roots growing in different directions.

But when I heard that they are trying to show that Casey Anthony didn`t put the duct tape and that we had Dr. Spitz saying well, maybe somebody put the duct tape over the skeleton in order to move it, that`s when I said, "A-ha, now I know why they brought Roy Kronk in," because they want to take the duct tape out of Casey Anthony`s hands, and they want to put it into somebody`s hands -- anybody else`s hands.

They tried to put it in George`s hands. Now they`re trying to put it in Roy Kronk`s hands. And that`s why they might bring up Roy Kronk`s wife who claimed apparently that he tried to duct tape her once. So they managed to find like six degrees of separation: an ex who is going to discuss this duct tape.

But where is this woman? Where are these witnesses? Why aren`t these witnesses coming to the stand?

NEJAME: Well, they are going to go ahead and put Roy Kronk on trial. And then it is going to be up to the judge to decide whether any of these ancillary witnesses are going to be permissible or not.

The reality of it is, is that the prosecution needs to stay focused. You`ve got an excellent prosecution team here. And if they allow this to become all disjointed, then there is going to be some confusion to the jury.

However, the key to the prosecution right now is to keep it simple. It is impractical. It is impossible for Mr. Kronk to have moved this body. If you look at the insects, if you look at the botanist report, it didn`t happen.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. But I got to jump in here. Because Mark, you`re saying it in plain English, plain and simple way. But with all the mumbo jumbo on the stand and you can`t issue declarations like that until the closing statements, the prosecution`s closing statement better be good. It better get simple, it better bring us back to Planet Earth because they -- in confusion there is reasonable doubt.

And if the jurors manage to stay awake during the half a dozen defense expert witnesses who got on the stand today, and said so many things that it would make your head spin, let`s hope that doesn`t result in just reasonable doubt from confusion.

Now, it seems like the entire defense strategy is essentially to put George, Casey`s own father on trial. Let`s see. They called him a cheater. They called him a child molester who covered up little Caylee`s death. Listen to this.


BAEZ: This child, who at 8 years old, learned to lie immediately. She could be 13 years old, have her father`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in her mouth and then go to school and play with the other kids as if nothing ever happened.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: My gosh, this man has been pushed to the brink. Look at him lashing out at protesters at his house. I was right on that front lawn today. Let me tell you, it is not a big lawn. Cindy and George have been under attack for almost three years now.

Joe Episcopo, this is really, I think, unprecedented in terms of trying to take a defendant and turn the entire case on its head, and put the father of the defendant on trial.

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, he didn`t have any motive to kill this child. The only person who had motive and opportunity was Casey.

Now let me say something about motive, because you were going on and on about that the other day. You don`t have to prove motive in any case in the United States when there is a criminal charge involved. If you had to prove motive, you would never be able to prove senseless crimes and people would go free.

But when you do have a motive, and we have a motive in this case by Casey, then, of course, you want to put that before the jury. She`s the person that had the motive and the opportunity. Roy Kronk didn`t have motive and opportunity. And certainly George didn`t have motive.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me just say this, you say I go on and on about motive. Now, you don`t technically have to have motive. It is a death penalty case. And I think there is a deeper why here and I think there were things that the prosecution did leave out, like the alleged fight between Cindy and Casey the night before the child vanished in which Cindy allegedly, according to some reports, said, "I`m going to take this kid from you."

If that`s not motive, I have never heard motive and we didn`t hear a thing -- a darn thing about that in this case. And I wonder if that`s a mistake that the prosecution made if indeed it did occur. You know, half measures avail us nothing.

If we`re going to call somebody else a liar and put them on trial for it, we have to make sure we`re impeccable with our word -- and I`m speaking the prosecution.

We`re going to be on verdict watch very soon in the trial of Casey Anthony.

But by the way, a bombshell just dropped in another case, on self-help guru James Ray. Just a little while ago, it just came down, jurors reached a verdict in -- you remember this -- the Arizona sweat lodge trial. This is the guy from "The Secret".

Listen to what the jury had to say.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We, the jury, duly empanelled and sworn in the above entitled action and upon our oaths do find the defendant James Arthur Ray on the offense of negligent homicide as a result of the death of Kirby Brown as follows, guilty.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And the defendant crying there as that verdict was read. The jury found James Ray guilty, three counts of negligent homicide. But the jury did find him not guilty on the more serious manslaughter charges in the deaths of Kirby Brown, Elizabeth Newman and James Shore.

All three died after a sweat lodge ceremony, organized and led by James Ray, the self-help guru back in 2009. Ray could get, well, we have heard various reports, but he could be going to prison. Yes, he could.

We`re revealing why some say -- some are saying there is a very good chance that Casey Anthony could actually walk. Yes, "People" magazine, cover story. What do you think? Call me. 1-877-JVM-SAYS.

Sandy in Louisiana, you`re coming up.


BAEZ: Did you find any containers that may have contained chloroform?


BAEZ: Any rags or any cloth material that might have contained chloroform?






SUNNY HOSTIN, LEGAL ANALYST, "IN SESSION": At the end of the prosecution`s case-in-chief, I did not see premeditated murder especially Ryan because they didn`t answer the question of motive.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Will Casey Anthony get away with murder? That is the very question that "People" magazine is asking on the cover of their latest issue. Take a look. A lot of people are wondering if prosecutors have proven their case. "Getting away with murder" -- that`s the question. Could Casey go free?

They rested the prosecution did, without a solid motive or a cause of death. So do they have enough to convince jurors that Casey is a cold- blooded killer? Or will she walk or will she get a lesser sentence?

I want to go out to Joe Episcopo on this, because I think that these are very valid questions and a lot of us who know all the details, who have studied this case for almost three years, feel, wow, the prosecution is just one home run after another.

But there are a lot of people, if you talk to them on the street, who aren`t really following it that carefully, who go, I don`t know, maybe it was an accident. That`s what I hear all the time.

EPISCOPO: Well, first of all, it may have been an accident. An accidental overdose, which if you dose your child with drugs, that`s aggravated child abuse, which is felony murder. But let`s get back to this "People" magazine. You know, why not put that on your cover when most people think she`s guilty, ok? That`s a good way to sell the magazine.

You know, I`m thinking back, ok, we don`t know the means of death, and in Robert Blake`s trial, "Baretta", the jury acquitted him because they couldn`t come up with the gun, though he looked pretty guilty.

But I don`t think that`s going to happen here in Florida. That was a California case. And we know how those cases can go.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, well, also they didn`t particularly like the victim, Bonny Lee Bakley, who was somebody who ran a lonely hearts club. And I think that might have impacted the jury`s decision and it is also very hard to convict a celebrity of anything in Los Angeles particularly.

EPISCOPO: And also --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Sandy -- I want to go to Sandy for a second. Sandy, Louisiana, you`ve been so patient. Sandy your question or thought.

SANDY, LOUISIANA (via telephone): Jane, it is a pleasure to speak with you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, thanks.

SANDY: My question is, I`d like to know when this so-called mistress gave this interview? Was it before opening statements by Mr. Baez? Or after? And if you think about it, Jane, Casey gave her mom and dad a clue. You showed it a thousand times. When she was in jail, she said to them, quote, "I feel she, Caylee, is close by." Do you remember? "I feel it in my heart."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, I feel Caylee is close -- right. Yes.

SANDY: That Caylee is close by. When you showed --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: In fact, in the backyard.

SANDY: Right. When you showed that tonight, a light bulb went off in my head. She did give us a clue. She said it with her own mouth. That`s probably the first truth she`s ever said.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I got to go to Leonard Padilla on that. The caller is making an absolute point. In jail, she said I sense she`s close. This is basically in her backyard. You cut through the back of the house; you can probably jog there in 45 seconds.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: When we were there, when we bailed her out, we had three individuals involved with security in that whole back area. The problem was at that time, Faye had come in and it was just a tremendous amount of water. But you can -- you can jog down there in about four minutes. It is just real close. You drove it in a little over a minute. It is just right there.

But, Jane, show me a meter for Kronk to read along where the body was found.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Say that again. Well, hold on, Mark Nejame --

PADILLA: Show me a meter, show me a meter.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mark, Mark, come on. You gave a reward to this Good Samaritan. We`ve got 20 seconds.

NEJAME: I like Leonard, but he hasn`t gotten one thing right in this case yet. And he continues on this Kronk theory. And there is no conspiracy with Kronk. I`ve met with Kronk. I`ve met with his attorney. I went through the facts.

Kronk is the real deal. Leonard is just beyond off base; more attention for Leonard.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes or no question. Do you think the defense will call Roy Kronk to the stand?

NEJAME: Absolutely.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So why haven`t they done it already? What the heck are they waiting for?

NEJAME: This whole tortured (AUDIO GAP) -- gone ahead and gone slower ever since. We thought that they were going to start with a bang, to create some interest, and what do they end up doing? One boring expert after another.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, tomorrow we have got a very special guest here on ISSUES. Zenaida Gonzalez, dubbed Zanny the nanny, the woman Casey accused of being involved in little Caylee`s disappearance. She will be here, live, tomorrow here on ISSUES. I can`t wait to talk to her.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: One question everybody seems to have is exactly how far is the Anthony home from where little Caylee`s remains were found. It is so close, it is mind boggling. We`re going to take you --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: "People" magazine reporting one reason that Casey could go free is because of her toxic relationship with her mom Cindy. Listen to Casey`s former fiance, Jesse Grund, talk about how things allegedly got out of control between mom and daughter. Listen to this.


JESSE GRUND, FORMER FIANCE OF CASEY ANTHONY: Lee shortly after my second interview with Orange County confided in me that the reason that he thought -- Cindy confided in him that the reason he thought -- she felt that Casey ran off was because there was a big fight between the two of them. And the fight concerned Casey not being home a lot and not bringing Caylee by. It got into a very heated argument, which turned physical and Cindy started choking Casey.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was there anyone else in the house when this happened?

GRUND: He didn`t actually expand upon that. As far as I understood, from what he told me, it was just Cindy and Casey.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Joe Episcopo, Florida criminal defense attorney, this was the night before the child disappeared. Why do you think the prosecution did not mention that?

EPISCOPO: Look, are you trying to say that Cindy`s now responsible for the death of Caylee over this fight? I`m not quite sure what you`re leading here to.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No. I`m saying that they need a motive. Ok, I`m saying that they need a motive.

EPISCOPO: They don`t need a motive. They don`t need a motive.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, they do.

EPISCOPO: They don`t need a motive.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Because this is a death penalty case -- well, maybe you`re right, but I certainly, in order to convict somebody of murder that could have them go to death, I would like to know why they killed the child. And the only thing the prosecution has said thus far is to go live the beautiful life and to party.

Now we all know that she had a doting grandma, so she could have left the child with the doting grandma, why didn`t she do that? Because they were at odds -- they were at odds over the rearing of this child.

There is a whole important story here. Mark Nejame, I think it needs to be told. Maybe I`m wrong, but my gut tells me people want to know why somebody does something.

EPISCOPO: You`re wrong.

NEJAME: Of course, they do. And Joe is not incorrect as far as the legal aspect. However, I think common sense dictates people want to know why. So I think the reality of it is that you go back to that statement. Remember, that statement to Mr. Grund allegedly, supposedly, came from Casey, who we know hasn`t said one truthful thing yet.

So think about it, the source is Casey Anthony, the biggest liar likely in the history of the world. So to have that as a believable statement, when it supposedly came from her, who knows what she was trying to scheme or do.

This is a smart prosecution team. If they want to lay it out, they`ll bring it out when it is appropriate.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mandy, Texas you had quick question or thought, Mandy?

MANDY, TEXAS (via telephone): Yes, actually it makes sense that George`s ex would be a defense witness because I would think that maybe she feels that she got dumped and that, you know, she`ll say anything and everything, you know, just to, you know, get back at him. And if you --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok, well, Mandy, I just want to say it is not George`s ex. George is married to Cindy and to my knowledge there is no ex for George. This is a woman who the defense claims had an affair with George. George has flatly denied it tonight. And she could take the stand very soon.

It is going to be interesting.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: What will the prosecution do if this Krystal Holloway, a.k.a. "River Cruise", the alleged mistress of George and George denies he has a mistress, takes the stand? Mark what will the prosecution do to her?

NEJAME: They will slice and dice her. The fact of the matter is she gave prior statement to law enforcement, which was completely inconsistent. And it won`t get into testimony. But she`s failed a polygraph test. So she`s got inconsistent statement.

Fact of the matter is, River Cruise, which is what she goes by, is a sinking ship. She`s going to crash and burn. Jeff Ashton will completely take her out.

You cannot -- it is the age-old issue, are you lying then, were you lying then, or are you lying now? That`s all he`s got to say.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Maybe the defense is afraid to put her on.

NEJAME: She`s been waiting in the wings. Yesterday, she was waiting in the wings. In light of some of the mess-ups we have seen in cross examination, they might have changed their mind. But --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It might be tomorrow.

NEJAME: We`ll see.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: "Nancy Grace" is up next.