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Casey Anthony Trial
Aired June 27, 2011 - 21:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
VINNIE POLITAN, GUEST HOST: After two days, three psych evaluations and lots of speculation, we finally know: Saturday`s abrupt recess all about Casey`s competency. Why now?
Also key moments from today. The prosecution trashes defense experts.
Plus, what does the defense have in store? All of that and more right here on "DR. DREW".
Good evening. I`m Vinnie Politan filling in for Doctor Drew live from the Casey Anthony trial in Orlando.
Tonight, the jury sees some video of the scene where the remains were recovered, shot one month before Caylee`s body was ever found. What does this prove? We`ll get into all that later.
But first, did Casey crack? Take a look at this and then we`ll talk about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shocker in court on Saturday.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Counsel reasonably believes that Ms. Anthony is not competent to aid and assist in her own defense.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Court ordered that the defendant be examined to determine her competency.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 29 days into the first-degree murder trial of Casey Anthony in Florida, live pictures here, one verdict is clear.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Based upon the reports that the court has reviewed, the court will find that the defense is competent to continue to proceed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: Casey`s defense files an emergency motion claiming she made some troubling comments to her attorneys that show she is not competent to aid and assist in her own defense. Casey spent the weekend getting her head shrunk by three different court-appointed psychologists. The judge then ruled that Casey is competent to stand trial.
What on earth triggered all of this? Could Casey have been pushing her attorneys to let her testify? Did her brother, Lee`s emotional testimony about Casey`s pregnancy spark some kind of breakdown. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: I was very angry at my mom, and I was also angry at my sister. I was just angry at everyone, in general, that they didn`t want to include me. And didn`t find it important enough to tell me especially after I had already asked.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: Or is this just extreme guilt? Let`s try to figure this out. Joining me in Orlando, the host of "In Session" on truTV Ryan Smith, criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh, and psychologist Lisa Boesky, also joins us tonight.
Great to have everyone with us.
Ryan, let me start with you. Because everyone was guessing. It was a cliff-hanger. Why did they stop everything? The last thing you know Judge Perry wants to do is stop this trial. But we found out it was competency. All because of some comment that she made to her attorney?
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION": Yes, that was the shocking thing. Like you said, Saturday we left. We were spinning. Could it be this, could it be that? A plea deal?
POLITAN: By the way, we were all wrong.
SMITH: Yes, every single one of us was wrong. Everybody got it wrong.
POLITAN: I was wrong, you were wrong, everybody got it wrong.
SMITH: But we came in this morning. You know, how Judge Perry has always said 8:30 on the dot. I want to start anything going on with the lawyers. 9:00, this case starts, 9:30 hits and we are still wondering what is going on. They`re in chambers. They come back and then this bombshell. I got the motion right here. The defense filed a motion to determine whether or not Casey was competent saying, quote, "that she was incompetent to proceed."
This weekend she saw three different psychiatrists. Each one of those talked to her at length. They submitted reports to Judge Perry, to the lawyers. The lawyers were fine with the reports and Judge Perry ultimately decided that she is competent to stand trial.
POLITAN: But her lawyers were questioning this.
SMITH: Exactly. They were wondering what`s going on?
POLITAN: Mark is shaking his head. Look at Mark, between us. He`s just shaking his head.
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Come on, guys. You haven`t tried cases in years. Let me tell you exactly what`s going on here.
POLITAN: It wasn`t that. A little bit of that.
EIGLARSH: It`s not like she was clucking like a chicken. It could be as simple as they have concerns about her understanding the process. And I think-this is just my theory. They had that discussion with her about testifying, or not testifying. And I don`t know if they felt that she really got it. Either way, they want to a CYA either on appeal, because it`s the most important decision I think she is going to make in this trial or court of public opinion, questioning whether they made the right decision or not. So they are covering their butts. Psychiatrists say that she`s fine. Now they`re OK.
POLITAN: Let`s see what Lisa-Lisa, what do you think here is going on? Could it be pressure, could it be that she`s pushing to testify and her lawyers look at her and say, what, are you crazy? You`re not testifying in this case. What do you think is at the heart of this alleged or perceived incompetence at this point?
LISA BOESKY, PSYCHOLOGIST: I absolutely don`t think that it is she`s breaking down. She is not breaking down. She showed a couple real emotional tears, as you should during a trial like this. So that is not what it is. It`s absolutely what I think she uttered to her attorneys was you got to let me testify. I want to testify. I have a right to testify.
And Jose Baez knows that`s the worst idea. So, I think, number one, he legitimately thinks she doesn`t appreciate what the risks and benefits are. Or, number two, he knows she`s not incompetent but was praying one of the psychologists or psychologists would find her incompetent to prevent her from going on the stand. I think she wants to testify.
POLITAN: We have to make clear to everyone this is different than legal insanity. Legal insanity is at the time of the offense what her mental state is. Competency is right here right now.
SMITH: Right. Right here, right now, do you understand the charges against you and penalties. Do you understand what`s going on? Can you process what`s going on in court?
EIGLARSH: Not an exceptional understanding, a mere adequate understanding.
POLITAN: Here is one thing I saw, Lisa, I noticed this in court early in the day she was laughing, this morning, smiling more than I`ve ever seen her smile. But then there were some reports in front of her. I saw her at counsel table sitting down and reading and reading and it seems to me that`s an indicator that maybe these doctors in evaluating her got it right because she`s able to read and understand what is going on.
BOESKY: That`s why I think she was happy today. People said she`s giddier than normal. I think it`s because she has control back with Jose Baez. He may be threatened her and said, look, I don`t think you`re competent. I`m going to evaluate you. I`m going to prevent you from testifying. Now the ball is in her court. She`s been found competent. She can testify if she wants to. I don`t think she should, but she can if she wants to.
POLITAN: Mark, I want you to take us into the attorney/client relationship, OK? I am now telling the court that my client is not competent saying there`s something wrong going on in my client`s head. How do you then turn around the next day and represent that person and have a conversation after doctors determine that she is OK?
SMITH: First of all, awkward?
EIGLARSH: It`s not that extreme. I don`t say to the judge, look, I think she`s nuts and cuckoo for Coco-Puffs. I am just saying I have concerns about her ability to understand the nature of the proceedings. That`s all.
POLITAN: She knows that she`s got to sit and talk to three doctors and she knows it`s because of you, the lawyer.
EIGLARSH: And then, hold on, Jose whispers to her I`m doing this, I want to make sure that you understand fully the implications of the decision that you`re making. That`s all. That`s what I strongly believe. I rule out everything else.
POLITAN: Ryan, did you see any difference in her interaction with Jose Baez and Chaney Mason, after being evaluated by three doctors over the weekend, and then coming back to court today?
SMITH: You know, at first we were speculating, because Jose Baez wasn`t sitting next to her at the defense table. We were saying, what is going on? Is there a change in the relationship? No, really, it was the kind of same relationship. He sat next to her during most of the trial today. They still got that relationship.
There`s another factor here by the way. We are all wondering, what was it that she said to the psychiatrist? What was that thing that happened? None of that will be released. The judge put this under seal. It won`t come out, at least for now.
EIGLARSH: It`s simple. They need to know questions like you know that big overweight guy up there wearing black polyester? Do you know who he is that`s t? That`s the judge, right? Do you know what the burden is in this case?
POLITAN: Wait, wait, wait, did you just call the Honorable Judge Belvin Perry overweight?
BOESKY: No, no, no, it was a little bit more.
POLITAN: Judge Belvin Perry, his name is Mark Eiglarsh. He practices law in Southern Florida.
EIGLARSH: That`s part of the test they need to know. They just need to know.
EIGLARSH: My point is, they just need to know, OK, you understand whose burden it is? You understand you don`t have to prove anything. Simple basic concepts so they know they are making an intelligent decision going forward.
POLITAN: Lisa, do you agree?
BOESKY: Yes, that is true. I would say that`s true.
EIGLARSH: Then you agree he`s overweight.
BOESKY: That`s true on a very, very basic level. But, Mark, you are leaving out a very important piece. This is probably the most important decision a client makes. A defendant makes in the case to testify or not. Especially this woman, who is not likable, not sympathetic, and has been shown to be a liar already.
So, I think what they`re really trying to evaluate, is she competent to make the decision as to whether she can testify. That`s more complicated than the guy over there is wearing a black robe, that`s the judge. I think it was reasonable to do this competency evaluation. And I think they were smart by doing three of them. All three of them, psychologist, forensic psychologist and a psychiatrist, have different levels of training, different types of expertise, so we can feel pretty comfortable knowing she is competent to move forward. Because either two of the three or all three found her competent.
POLITAN: All right. Next, are Casey`s attorneys going for a distraction defense? And later, trashy testimony. Just what was it that caused the smell of death in Casey Anthony`s car?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HON. BELVIN PERRY, ORANGE COUNTY CIRCUIT COURT: The court ordered that the defendant would be examined by three psychologists to determine her competency to proceed. Based upon the reports that the court has reviewed, the court will find that the defendant is competent to continue to proceed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, ON TRIAL FOR MURDER: I sat around yesterday trying to figure out what to do. I`m glad that I have seen my mom and that all that stuff happened. It happened for a reason. Absolutely petrified. I know my mom will never forgive me. I`m never going to forgive myself. There`s a chance that I might not see Caylee again. I don`t want to think about that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: I`m Vinnie Politan sitting in for Dr. Drew.
Tonight we know Casey lies, but listening to her she seems like she`s competent enough to understand what`s going on and guess what? Judge Perry agrees with me.
A secret conversation between Anthony and her lawyers prompted them to ask for an emergency competency hearing. Casey was evaluated by three different court-appointed psychologists this weekend. Today the defense tries another tactic for a mistrial. They filed a motion citing a recent federal case that says Florida`s death penalty it is all unconstitutional. Are these just distractions?
Back with me, criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh, psychologist Lisa Boesky, and look what the wind blew in-it`s Lisa Bloom joins me as well.
Good evening, Lisa.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Best-selling author, Lisa Bloom.
POLITAN: That`s right, best-selling author.
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: Hi, Vinnie. Good to talk to you.
POLITAN: Great to see you tonight, Lisa. You should come down to Orlando. It`s nice and humid.
All right. Lisa, let me start --
BLOOM: I`ll stay here in L.A., thanks.
POLITAN: OK, let`s talk about competency, state of mind, attorney/client relationship, exactly what`s going on here. What do you surmise could have been the cause or what was the statement? What is it that Casey Anthony said to either Chaney Mason, or Jose Baez, that made them say, uh-oh, we got to bring this competency motion up?
BLOOM: Well, Vinnie, you know I have had my fair share of high maintenance difficult clients. I suspect it was not just one thing, but it was a series of things. I believe that Casey Anthony is probably a very, very difficult client behind the scenes. The kind that always wants to tell her lawyers how to do everything.
POLITAN: In what way? In what way, Lisa?
BLOOM: She wants to mastermind the strategy. They don`t agree with it. They don`t like it. They`ve had enough of her. They frankly are saying she`s not able to aid in the defense because the thing she wants us to do are so cockamamie and crazy that she needs to have a competency evaluation. That`s my suspicion of what happened.
POLITAN: Could that cockamamie thing have her testify, Lisa?
BLOOM: Sure. Sure it could. I think she`s the one that came up with this drowning defense that nobody buys. She`s the one that got them to say her father molested her, which nobody buys. They`ve been spouting all of her crazy theories but otherwise I think they`re doing a pretty good job for the defense, putting on forensic evidence. She`s probably telling them what`s with this forensic evidence. Nobody cares. Put me on the stand and they`re telling her, shh-shh, let us do what we know how to do. And it`s causing fireworks behind the scenes. It does happen.
POLITAN: Lisa Boesky, this is someone, and it is documented. We`ve seen the videos and heard the audio recordings of her lying to everyone. My goodness, she had her parents fooled that she was working for two and a half years at Universal. Is it possible that when they are preparing her to testify that she comes up with, oh, a different story than she told Jose Baez, and a different story than Jose Baez told this jury?
BOESKY: I absolutely think that`s possible. The thing with Casey is you never know what`s going to come out of her mouth. The thing is she`s never been caught. She`s never been held accountable. This is the first time. We`ve never seen her break and then she`s in jail and tells a different story. Tells a different story to different people. I do think that`s one of the risks and Jose Baez knows that. Putting her on the stand, you don`t know what`s going to come out of her mouth. And we have seen with his witnesses, he`s not very good a preparing them. I think he`s done a decent job with the facts that he has and the evidence he has, but he`s not prepared his witnesses well. And so he is certainly is not going to prepare her well and she needs a lot of wrangling if she`s going to do a good job on that stand.
POLITAN: Mark, how about this scenario is right, Mark, that she comes up with another story. That story is she, oh, she drown but my father, George, he wasn`t there. And I did put her in the trunk of my car and I panicked. That`s a different story that I think might actually work.
EIGLARSH: She`s cunning enough to know she`s probably how they should have gone to begin with and she probably wants to fix it. And Jose and probably Cheney says, are you nuts? You cannot do it. You cannot-we`ve already launched this defense. Stay with it.
POLITAN: Does that play into the narrative of who Casey Anthony is? She`s someone who tells different stories to everyone. Why not tell her lawyer a different story. You`ve had clients that tell you stories.
EIGLARSH: Never. They all tell me the truth.
Listen, they want to win. They think she could potentially undermine the defense by either testifying period, or testifying and giving some cockamamie story that`s different than what they alleged initially, and for that they said, Fine, you want to do that. Let`s get the doctors in to make sure you`re competent.
POLITAN: Lisa Bloom, what happens if she gets on the witness stand, because it`s her decision to do so and tells a story different than the one Jose Baez said. Couldn`t Jose Baez, during his closing argument say, well, that`s Casey Anthony. It`s difficult for her to tell the truth. She lied to me, ladies and gentlemen. Her story is reasonable. Her story is very possible under the circumstances of the evidence in this case.
BLOOM: Wow that is a fascinating scenario, Vinnie.
POLITAN: I wowed her!
BLOOM: I don`t see ever telling a jury that my client lied on the witness stand. I would fall on my sword first, as her attorney. I gave you a theory in opening statement on the defense we`re not required to prove anything. We don`t have a burden of proof. I gave you one theory. The evidence developed in a different way. And here is what the evidence now shows. I would fall on my sword rather than attack my client and say she`s lying.
POLITAN: It works with who she is, Lisa Boesky. We know she is a liar. The defense can`t get around that fact. There was a witness that got on the stand and was with Casey Anthony when Casey Anthony is lying to someone on the phone. Casey Anthony hangs up the phone and turns to this person with her and says I`m really good at lying. The jury heard that. It`s a given that the jury knows this. How much more harm could it be if she lied to her lawyer too?
BOESKY: Well, I think she probably has lied to her lawyer. I have no doubt in my mind she lied to her lawyer. The question is will she lie when she gets up there. The hard part is Casey does really believe she`s smarter than everyone else. I guarantee you she thinks she is smarter than Jose Baez. She thinks, maybe your strategy, it`s all right, but I have a little piece of information that I think can really put a cherry on top. And, of course, he doesn`t want that to happen. So I do think her overconfidence and her feeling of superiority and her belief that she`s smarter than everyone else-think about it, Nancy Grace followed this woman and all of her dealings for so long and still she avoided getting caught for a long time. She really thinks she`s smarter than everyone else. I really think she wants her "day in court" and wants to get up there and Baez knows that`s the worst possible thing to do.
POLITAN: I tend to agree with everything that you are saying. You know, from watching her and looking at her and the way she spent her life. I mean, if you can trick people into thinking that you have a job for two and a half years. How on earth are you ever able to do that? But she did. She tricked a friend of hers into baby sitting for free, because she had to go to work, when she didn`t have a job. Unbelievable.
When we come back, home video of the scene where Caylee`s remains were found. Was her body in the woods when two investigators searched the scene? Or did they miss it? Or did someone put the little girl`s body there while Casey Anthony was behind bars? Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you looking for in black plastic bags?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Looking for Caylee`s remains.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that a plastic bag right there?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: Welcome back. I`m Vinnie Politan sitting in tonight for Dr. Drew.
Two private investigators take the stand. The jury is shown video of the scene where the remains are found taken one month before Caylee`s body was recovered. What does this all prove? The defense is saying that Caylee was already dead at this point, but these two investigators were there at the site and didn`t find anything.
Take a look at these photos. X is marking the spot. This is where investigators say they searched for her body but, again, found nothing. One month later Roy Cronk made a gruesome discovery.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROY KRONK, DISCOVERED CAYLEE`S REMAINS: During the course of my duties as a county employee I discovered and reported to my management and appropriate authorities, the remains of a human body located in a wooded area close to the Suburban Drive, in East Orange County.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: Attorney Mark Eiglarsh is back with me. We`re going to try to get psychic Jeanette Lucas with us, by found. She is hopefully going to join us. She is the one who is actually on the phone with Dominique Casey, directing him where to look for. Looking at this video today, and absolutely amazing stuff, Mark. Because I`ve been to the site. I`ve seen where the body was found. I saw where they were searching. So close to where the body was recovered.
EIGLARSH: Here`s the problem. I didn`t find these guys credible. I was fortunate enough to be in the courtroom watching them.
POLITAN: What did you not find credible? What were they lying about?
EIGLARSH: First of all, my overall impression, candidly, it was like "dumb and dumber" meets "The Blare Witch Project". Fist of all, my five year old, who I let use the camera, shoots better than these guys. I also found they weren`t specific on where they actually searched.
EIGLARSH: They were not. You have this whole wooded area. The prosecution is not concerned because they obviously didn`t check the area in which the remains were found.
POLITAN: Or is it obvious? The defense is going to say, and this is what they are going to argue folks, that the body wasn`t there. Roy Kronk had it.
Jeanette Lucas now joins us.
Ginette , I`m looking right now at video of Dominique Casey on the phone. You`re the one on the other end of the line?
GINETTE MATACIA LUCAS, PSYCHIC: Yes, I was.
POLITAN: All right. Tell me what you were telling Dominique Casey because he was pretty darn close to the area.
LUCAS: Well, I told him to leave the house and I told him to walk a certain direction and finally go over to Suburban. And I told him to go to a house that was either abandoned or empty on the corner of Suburban and I gave him the name of the street I assumed was the location. And I said, now what I want you to do is look for three pavers the size of, you know, a large paver. A paver is typically, -- I`m in Virginia. We use them for either roads, or walkways.
POLITAN: Wait. Ginette, let me just jump in before we run out of time. Are you looking for a paver at the wooded area, or at the abandoned house?
GINETTE : No, not at the abandoned house, but I told him to start at the abandoned house, and walk around and I said, I need to pick up something from where you are, start there. You have to . I`ve done several cases. I have over 20 hits. And what I do is I take a landmark and I say start from this point, and then I want you to walk straight ahead, and he was having difficulty doing it. I said grab a stick, or a piece of rod and stick it in the earth.
POLITAN: And he did. Ginette.
POLITAN: Unfortunately we`ve run out of time. But I want to talk to you again. Thank you so much, Ginette Lucas.
Up next, trash talk. Once and for all what was that smell coming from Casey`s car? And later, a courtroom observer says testimony was intense today. We`ll talk to him coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN (voice-over): Day 29 of the Casey Anthony murder trial. Judge Perry rejects the competency motion that brought Saturday`s proceedings to a screeching halt.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The defendant is competent to continue.
POLITAN: And the prosecution scores big points by talking trash literally.
JEFF ASHTON, PROSECUTOR: There is not sufficient organic material to create the level of decomposition odor, wouldn`t you agree?
POLITAN: Plus, what is lead counsel, Jose Baez, have in store for the rest of his case? Will he back up his drowning theory? What about the sex abuse accusation?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: The law enforcement had good knowledge as to where the body was.
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Law enforcement actually knew as everybody is frantically looking for this child as they`re trying to build the case against Casey Anthony, yet they knew where the body was located and sat back and didn`t do anything? Is that your position my potential new client?
PADILLA: One hundred percent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: There we go. Just another friendly exchange between our friends, criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh and bounty hunter, Leonard Padilla, who is also with us tonight, joining us. Leonard, great to see you. Also with us, a bounty hunter, Rob Dick, his associate and in honor of the upcoming fourth of July fireworks. We brought everyone together again tonight. I`m Vinnie Politan filling in for Dr. Drew live from Orlando. Also with us tonight, attorney and my pal, Lisa Bloom.
Lot to focus today on what cause that foul odor coming from Casey Anthony`s car trunk. Was it a decomposing body or could it have been household trash? Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ASHTON: Doctor, you would agree with me, would you not, that there is not sufficient organic material in any of the things that we have just looked at to create the level of decomposition odor in this vehicle, wouldn`t you agree?
DR. KENNETH FURTON, FORENSIC CHEMIST: No, I couldn`t say that with certainty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: And the trash talk continued when Prosecutor Jeff Ashton literally began presenting pieces of trash. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ASHTON: So, you would agree that this box from (INAUDIBLE) with broccoli would not create decomposition odor such as found in the car, correct? This item wouldn`t?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That item as it is now, I would say it wouldn`t produce potential odor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: Absolutely brilliant today, Jeff Ashton, in taking each piece of trash and giving it to this expert. Mark Eiglarsh, have you ever seen someone bring the trash into evidence and use it to try to prove a point the way Jeff Ashton did today?
EIGLARSH: No. I thought that was very effective. Literally, without gloves, he just handed them garbage, and I could -- I was watching their faces. They would look through it then passed it along, and they`ve looked out down at their hands like what the hell did I just do?
POLITAN: Were they sniffing it?
EIGLARSH: They didn`t sniff it, but they looked inside, and the point was made. Obviously, there wasn`t enough in there to create what the defense witness was alleging.
POLITAN: Lisa Bloom, I think this is just a losing issue for the defense and could be the biggest problem they have. My goodness, how many different ways can the prosecution proves that decomposing body was in the trunk? The canines, people smelling the smell, the chemicals associated with human decomposition, the hair -- the post-mortem root banding of the hair of Caylee found in that trunk. Just piece of evidence after evidence losing issue for them, Lisa.
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: Well, the defense is trying to pick it apart piece by piece and to attack with forensic evidence. That`s what they should be doing and more power to them, but you know who you really can never undercut in my view in a court of law? The dogs. The dogs. The canine evidence. You know, dogs don`t have any motivation to lie. They don`t have bias.
They`re not getting paid off. They know what they sniff, right? And when a dog alerts to the odor of decomposition and indicates that there are human remains in the trunk, to me, that`s game over. There were human remains in that trunk.
POLITAN: All right. Leonard Padilla, today, wow. What a day when they showed that videotape. You had the two private investigators, Dominique Casey and Jim Hoover, got a video camera, and they`re searching the area that seems very close to where the remains were found. What were you thinking about as you were watching that video today, Leonard?
PADILLA: Well, first of all, let me do something here. I got a bunch of mail from -- I have a fan club, and they all wrote me about the cowboy hat thing and all that, and I want everybody to know that that was done in good spirit. I thought it was a lot of fun. I have a lot of fun with Mark. I have no problems with him. I`m going to take him to dinner some day when I`m in Miami. He might not show up afterwards, but I`m taking him to dinner.
PADILLA: But as far --
EIGLARSH: Thanks, Len.
PADILLA: As far as that, that only proves that Kronk and these folks were off in the same direction from the body which means that they got their same information from the same basic source, because we`ve been out there a dozen times. And Rob here will tell you --
POLITAN: Wait, wait, you`re not buying the psychic. I just had the psychic on. She said she was on the other end of the phone.
PADILLA: No, no, no, no. The psychic got her information from Baez. She got her information from Baez because he was told by his client --
EIGLARSH: Wait a second, Len, Len, Len, come on now. Come on. I love you, but this isn`t personal. You mean to tell me you have proof that Casey Anthony told Jose Baez who then what, tells a psychic or talks to those guys directly and directs them to the body? That`s your new theory?
PADILLA: No. It`s always been my theory that law enforcement overheard him. Overheard her telling Baez where the body was and what had happened.
POLITAN: Just one question --
EIGLARSH: And then, they sat on it and did nothing for months? That`s all part of the same theory. Law enforcement knew where the body was but waited and said, you know what, we`ll just chill out for a little bit. We`re going to let all of those volunteers go through the sweat and the rattlesnakes or whatever the hell is out there, and it`s OK, because eventually, we`ll find the body.
POLITAN: Hey, Rob, let me ask you about that videotape shot by those two investigators. Rob, was that thing for sale? Because that was a big issue in court today. They were denying that they were trying to sell this thing.
ROB DICK, BOUNTY HUNTER: Yes. Somewhere around the 14th of December, Hoover approached Leonard and I trying to make money off that tape. And here`s my question. How can Kronk and Hoover and Dominique all be in the exact wrong spot east of where the remains were found? How can it happen?
POLITAN: A little bit further away from it. And let`s explain to the folks at home how close they got. What was it, about 100 yards maybe?
DICK: Yes. If you look at the picture, look at the picture where Dominique was.
POLITAN: Let`s put that picture up for everybody. We`re going to put it up so everyone can see it.
DICK: Look at the light poles. Look at the light poles. He`s three poles down. The first pole in the picture is where the remains were found just a little bit east of that first hole. He`s way off. Same place Kronk was in August. How do we explain that?
POLITAN: Yes. To give you some perspective of this picture, look, you can see a car there. So, that gives you an idea of some scale of what we`re looking at here. So, if I`m talking about car lengths, it`s probably like 10 to 12 car lengths at least.
DICK: Exactly. Look at the end of the fence in that little tree right there by the road. That`s where the remains were found on the south side of the street. Now, go two poles east. Two light poles east. You can see the two poles how far apart they are. That`s where they were looking.
PADILLA: The same place that Kronk was at. And as far as the tape, there was so some controversy about the famous bounty hunter that was offered the tape and all that. I told him not to sell it to Fox for $50,000 because he could make $200,000 off of Jim Lichtenstein (ph), but I wanted to do was freeze the situation until I could get ahold of Nick Savage, the FBI agent, and I couldn`t. I kept calling him and telling him and leaving messages.
POLITAN: Here`s what we`re learning.
PADILLA: One at a time.
POLITAN: Leonard Padilla does not believe in psychics, but he does believe in conspiracies.
POLITAN: Len, is that true?
POLITAN: It seems too many people are in on this thing to hide where the remains are. Wasn`t everybody looking for them?
PADILLA: No, no, no, no, no. The remains were always there. They were there from the time she dumped her. Here`s the thing. When we did the search up on little econ river (ph), I was jammed by Sergeant Allen and told that I was a liar, and he wanted me to take a lie detector test. I`d like to have that sergeant take a lie detector test now before the end of the trial.
POLITAN: Unbelievable stuff. Much more coming up. What`s the defense`s strategy now? Do you think they`re succeeding in convincing this jury that Caylee`s death was an accident? Stay tuned.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Caylee Anthony died on June 16th, 2008, when she drowned in her family`s swimming pool. As soon as Casey came around this corner and went back, she saw George Anthony holding Caylee in his arms.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROY KRONK, METER READER: I`m in the wooded area down by the school. I need you like now. I just found a human skull.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: Welcome back. I`m Vinnie Politan filling in for Dr. Drew tonight live from Orlando. That was the infamous 911 call made by Roy Kronk, the meter reader, who actually found Little Caylee`s remains in December of 2008, and we got some breaking news tonight. This just into HLN. David Evans, Roy Kronk`s attorney sys Kronk was asked to report to court first thing tomorrow morning.
So, tomorrow, it looks like it`s the day that Roy Kronk is going to take the witness stand. Now, the defense theory here. They say that Caylee drowned in the family pool, and George and Casey were both home when all this happens, but how did Caylee`s body then get from the Anthony`s backyard to the wooded area on suburban drive?
While, the defense says that Roy Kronk, at some point, had possession of these things and move them there, but why? Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAEZ: You will not be able to trust a thing having to do with Mr. Kronk because he had control of Caylee`s remains for, obviously, several months. Where he found her, we do not know. Nor will we ever know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: So, where would Roy Kronk have gotten the body from? Was it ever in Casey`s trunk. Bounty Hunters, Leonard Padilla and Rob Dick, are back with us to talk about this and so is criminal defense attorney and their best friend, Mark Eiglarsh.
All right. Mark, does the defense -- because we`ve listened to that opening statement, and there was a big hole like bigger than Len Padilla`s hat, OK? That`s big this whole was (ph) in their story, saying -- not saying what happened to the body once it`s in George Anthony`s hands in the backyard and then ends up in the woods, but they say Kronk`s got it for months.
EIGLARSH: They`re not going to connect all the dots. This thing looks clearly manufactured. What they`re hoping is that with Kronk`s questionable finding of the body, because it`s questionable. I mean, the whole thing just doesn`t seem like it makes any sense. And then, they`re hoping to get into his background which involves using allegedly duct tape on one of his prior wives.
That combined -- they` hoping it will convince one jury. That`s all it takes. A victory for the defense here is a hung jury. They get to do this all over again and do it right and not throw the father under the bus and allege what they did.
POLITAN: Len, how about Roy Kronk`s story. And we got into a little bit. Where is he telling the truth? What should we believe in your eyes? What should we not believe?
PADILLA: Let me go along with Eiglarsh here for a second. Roy Kronk comes out of a bail bond background, 13 to 14 years of it, in Kingsport, Tennessee, where he lived with the bail bond family. The lady he`d lived with died. He moves his dog and banned up (ph) to Florida, hooks up with Michelle who works at the jail.
You`re telling me that she didn`t get the information from somebody in law enforcement, somebody at the jail when overheard Baez being told by his client where the body was? That`s exactly what got him out there.
EIGLARSH: I want to know, he keeps saying that. How do we know that Casey Anthony ever told her lawyer, Jose Baez, this is where the body is? That`s your vertical leap. That`s one of your first vertical leaps. How do we know that?
POLITAN: When is this conversation?
PADILLA: Mark, let me tell you something. You guys connect the dots. Me and Rob, we work between the dots. Nobody else knew where the body was except Casey. She`s the only one that knew where the body was.
POLITAN: Here`s the thing. But Rob, you`ve been to that neighborhood. You know how close it is to the house. I mean, my goodness. It`s a logical place to look, isn`t it? The closest, the wooded area to Casey Anthony`s house?
DICK: But think about when this happened in August. If Kronk would have said, hey, I woke up and I had a dream she was there, I would believe that, but why is he going out there trying to not connect himself to it point law enforcement in August? They got to understand, in August back then, none of us knew all this. Nobody is even thinking of a body at that point.
So, why is he the only one coming forward saying I`m looking for a body in a bag and the same time fast forward to November, Dominique and Hoover are looking for the same body in bag? How is that happening? Nobody knew it back in August. Everyone is looking for a live kid.
POLITAN: Nobody knew it was in a bag. So, this is what I think, Mark.
DICK: The only person who had contact was Baez.
POLITAN: Kronk is on the stand tomorrow, folks. Don`t miss it on HLN. But the fact -- if Kronk`s credibility now looms extremely large because if he comes across as some guy who`s not telling the whole truth, then this jury might not believe anything he says.
EIGLARSH: You are absolutely right. The jury instruction in Florida is that if there`s any doubt at all conflicts in what they`re saying, trust me, they deposed this guy. They`ve got things lined up, then, they can disregard his entire testimony.
POLITAN: So, Rob, are you telling me that the meter reader who worked in that neighborhood was not in the woods relieving himself and came across something, Rob?
DICK: No, not at all. Besides, when he went to show the deputy in December, he walked past it and couldn`t even find it. He knew where it was all the way back to August. How is that possible? People have to question that. Just one more thing --
POLITAN: Here`s my question. Why does he wait until December?
DICK: The water.
POLITAN: Why does he wait until December?
DICK: He couldn`t get back there. That`s why he told his son in Thanksgiving that he was waiting for the waters to recede to get back in there. He hadn`t found the actual location. Remember, they were off same place Dominique and Hoover were. They were off. And just one quick thing on Casey --
POLITAN: Go ahead, Rob.
DICK: Just one quick thing on Casey. Why is she was so happy today? Casey was the happiest person I`ve ever met the entire time she was out while she was supposedly worried about her child. Tracy (ph) nicknamed her the (INAUDIBLE) because she`s always happy. You know why she`s so happy today? Three shrinks just said that she`s not crazy. She`s got a big head right now. She thinks she`s beat them.
POLITAN: She`s the smartest one in town. Go ahead, Len.
PADILLA: And there`s no meters out there. There ain`t a meter between the school and the corner. Not one single meter, and there were three meter readers out there.
POLITAN: But Len, can I say this?
POLITAN: And I don`t know what he`s going to testify to, but if I was a guy who had to relieve myself and I was in that neighborhood, that is, unfortunately, the first place I would go if I --
POLITAN: To knock in someone`s door or I didn`t have time to drive down to the gas station.
EIGLARSH: That`s exactly what I was going to say. Listen tomorrow. You`ll hear how he connects the dots as you would say as to why he went to relieve himself there.
PADILLA: He was scared of snakes. Mark, remember, he was scared of snakes. That`s why he wouldn`t go --
EIGLARSH: He was scared of peeing in his pants probably more. That`s obviously why he went to relieve himself.
PADILLA: He could have gone at the school. The school`s got 20 bathrooms.
EIGLARSH: The school is closed. They`re out of session, aren`t they, in August? There`s no school.
DICK: But he made the statement he wouldn`t go into the woods because he was scared of the snake they found. So, now, you`re telling me that he just goes in there and drops his pants? Not going to happen.
EIGLARSH: How about this? Why don`t you both keep an open mind and listen to his testimony.
DICK: We`ll reconvene. We`ll reconvene.
POLITAN: Len Padilla, Rob Dick, great to see you both tonight. Great to have you aboard. Thanks so much.
All right, folks. Dr. Drew`s jury is next. It`s our fly on the wall observer. He`s in the courtroom today and says the atmosphere was tense. I`m Vinnie Politan filling in for Dr. Drew. Don`t go anywhere.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAEZ: The time period in question for Mr. Kronk as to his involvement in this case begins in August and ends in December.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s correct.
BAEZ: And he is the gentleman that found Caylee Marie Anthony`s body?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
BAEZ: And you did not seek phone records for any of those time periods from August to December of 2008?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: Welcome back. I`m Vinnie Politan filling in for Dr. Drew tonight live from Orlando. The twist and turns of Casey Anthony`s trial have been riveting. Joining us now is one of Dr. Drew`s jurors, Curtis White, who was in court today. Curtis, great to see you. And Curtis, I want to give you the full Dr. Drew treatment right now. So, what do you think? Do you feel like you`re speaking to Dr. Drew right now?
CURTIS WHITE, DR. DREW "JUROR": Good look. I like it on you.
POLITAN: All right. So, I got to take this off. Seriously though, today, inside that courtroom, real tense day, wasn`t it?
WHITE: Oh, yes, definitely. When we got there -- because really no on Saturday because nothing happened, and then, you know, I waited all weekend. Now, we get in and everything started late like 45 minutes late.
POLITAN: You`re wondering what`s going on, right?
WHITE: Yes. Casey is sitting there with her head down for like 20 minutes. What is going on? Is she read in her plea deal? What`s going on? I want to know. So, came out this and you`re not crazy. We can keep on going.
POLITAN: Now, George Anthony is someone that you have actually met and not just like here at the courthouse. You`ve actually come across George, and I remember, when George Anthony had that baseball bat, did he tell you a story about that?
WHITE: Yes. I met him when he was driving around with a sign on the back of his car. He had a little tent, and he was working for missing kids. And he told me and my brother that the day the people were banging on the door, he came on to bat, he actually took the bat from Cindy because she had it, but when the door opens and camera is on it, they see him going crazy with the bat thinking he was going to attack everybody.
POLITAN: So, what`s it like now for you to be inside that courtroom, and there`s George Anthony, someone that you`ve met, you`ve kind of known what the torment that he`s gone through here. You hear the different theories about what may have happened here. Have you heard anything in this defense case that makes you think that Little Caylee may have lost her life in that pool in the backyard?
WHITE: No. I can`t believe any of it, the sexual abuse and all that. When you sit -- I`m sitting in the row in front of him today. And you`ve been sitting around for ten hours and you just see what they`re all going through, how can he be a part of that? I mean, it`s his granddaughter. Like with the grandmother. If I had children, they were up for death, I`ll say anything to try to get them off the hook, but --
POLITAN: Right. And that`s another big part of the dynamic here is that they`re the grandparents of the victim and that`s why they`re in the courtroom because they`re victims, but the parents of Casey Anthony. What did you see from her today, Casey Anthony? Because I noticed in the beginning of the day, before court even started, it seemed that she was laughing and smiling today. Did you notice any of that?
WHITE: When you sit by her, and so, she talk with some of the women in my row, she`s like a normal person. I mean, she`s been dragged through it. So, it`s like all of the torment, the mixed emotions, the breaking down and crying, I understand. I mean, how can a mother and a grandmother go through all of that?
POLITAN: How about this, Curtis? Let`s say, for instance, that Casey Anthony takes the witness stand, and everyone is wondering if that`s going to happen in this case. What would you want to hear from her? What are the unanswered questions that you want to know to fill in the gaps of what happened to that little girl?
WHITE: What were you doing for 31 days? I mean, that nobody heard from her at all. If I lost my cell phone, I wouldn`t wait 31 days to call someone and say something is wrong, and I lost it --