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ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL

Defense Rests in Casey Anthony Trial

Aired June 30, 2011 - 19:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight the defense rests without calling Casey Anthony to the stand.

BELVIN PERRY, JUDGE: That decision is your decision freely and voluntarily?

CASEY ANTHONY, ON TRIAL FOR MURDER: Yes, sir.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Will Casey regret not telling her side to the jury? Did the defense make massive mistakes and actually present evidence to help link Casey to little Caylee`s death? We`re live from the trial.

And we`re taking your calls. ISSUES starts now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CASEY (via phone): I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month.

PERRY: Is it your decision not to testify?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, sir.

PERRY: Your decision to testify or not testify is solely your decision and your decision alone.

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of line. Get out of line.

CINDY ANTHONY: I overheard her telling Lee that Caylee was gone for 31 days.

GEORGE ANTHONY, FATHER OF CASEY: It was very hard to accept that I don`t have a granddaughter anymore.

(SHOUTING)

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY`S ATTORNEY: She could be 13 years old, have her father (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in her mouth and then go to school and play with the other kids as if nothing ever happened.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mrs. Anthony?

CINDY ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you like to take a break? Do you need a break?

CINDY ANTHONY: No. I`m OK.

LEE ANTHONY, BROTHER OF CASEY: I was just angry at everyone in general that they didn`t -- they didn`t want to include me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get out of the way, camera man.

BAEZ: She never was missing. Caylee Anthony died on June 16, 2008, when she drowned in her family swimming pool.

PERRY: That decision is your decision freely and voluntarily?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, sir.

BAEZ: Your honor, the defense rests.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. What a wild day. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell coming to you live from Orlando, Florida.

The courthouse is right behind me. And I have to tell you, it`s been an extraordinary day. And you probably saw it just a little while ago. Our own Vinnie Politan right here on HLN scored an exclusive interview with Krystal Holloway, also known as River Cruz. She`s the woman who claims that she had an affair with George Anthony. She took the stand.

And she said, "Yes, I had an affair with George Anthony," which means George Anthony is lying. You can only believe one or the other. Either you believe Krystal Holloway, a.k.a. River Cruz, or you believe George.

Well, you get to decide. Listen to her as she talks to Vinnie just a little while ago and then we`re going to analyze it. Check it out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: You say you gave George Anthony a bunch of money.

KRYSTAL HOLLOWAY, DEFENSE WITNESS: Yes.

POLITAN: How much?

HOLLOWAY: It was between -- I want to say, I said $4,000.

POLITAN: Why? Why are you giving George Anthony money? This sounds a little funny to me. George Anderson is having an affair with you and you`re paying him.

HOLLOWAY: No.

POLITAN: Doesn`t sound right, right?

HOLLOWAY: No, I wasn`t paying him, Vinnie. He told me he couldn`t get a job. And that he couldn`t pay his bills. And he couldn`t eat. So...

POLITAN: Did you give him cash?

HOLLOWAY: Yes, I gave him cash. I felt bad for him, too. So even though we were sleeping together, I gave them the money. I didn`t ask for it back. He`s a liar. Come on.

POLITAN: Can you tell when he`s lying?

HOLLOWAY: No. But I know that he`s lying. Because he was in my bed, and he was taking my money.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I got to say, I believed this woman. I don`t really feel that she would have come over here and said, "I want to talk to Vinnie" and sat down and told her story crying and everything, admitting that she`s the one who approached him, which to me speaks to the truth. Jean Casarez, I believe this woman.

JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, TRUTV`S "IN SESSION": I think as I listen to it, my gut is saying the same thing that yours is saying. But I have to say what is the implication for this trial? Why is it important or why is it not important at all? Because her testimony was sort of a wash.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ll tell you why it`s important. I need to get a little psychological analysis. And I`m going to go to Judge Larry Seidlin, the famous judge who handled the Anna Nicole Smith case.

The reason why it`s important is that George has painted himself before the jury and the world as kind of a doddering, dutiful husband who is a victim and who has been victimized by this. He has martyred himself. And we`ve all felt sorry for him.

And now we`re starting to figure out, at the 11th hour, wait a second. Maybe he`s not the guy we think he is. I mean I wish the defense had started with this woman, Judge Seidlin. Because I`m starting to wonder. I felt sorry for George for years now. And now I`m thinking, maybe this guy is pulling an act. Maybe he`s a liar. Maybe Cindy is a liar. Maybe it`s true that this family lies, and that Casey learned to lie from her mom and dad.

LARRY SEIDLIN, JUDGE: This is not a family you want in your house for Thanksgiving dinner. This family doesn`t know the truth if it bit it in the rear end.

He`s telling you he`s visiting this River Cruz because she`s got a brain tumor. He`s not looking at that organ on her. He`s looking at other organs. He`s having a sexual affair with this woman while his granddaughter is missing. How different is that from Casey having an affair, getting tattooed while the -- while her daughter is missing? The apple as you said earlier, does not fall far from the tree.

These members of this family are whacked out. They`re everywhere. And why are we accusing this girl of murder? Why? Because the only reason is she`s missing for 31 days and she doesn`t call the police. Why don`t we charge the father with murder? Why not?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I`ll tell you. Now you`ve really taken it to an extreme that I don`t necessarily agree with.

Casey Jordan, criminologist. I think it`s very possible that this family is highly dysfunctional, that they lie. I don`t know if I believe Cindy Anthony when she testified that she did the chloroform searches. The prosecution is saying she`s lying. And about to bring up a whole bunch of people that are going to presumably say that she lied and is trying to say that she made those searches. So you`ve got mom possibly lying. You`ve got dad now possibly lying about an affair.

Is it possible that, no, he`s not a molester and she didn`t learn to lie because she was molested? It`s just a family that doesn`t have any concept of the truth. There are a lot of them out there. And they lie with abandon. That`s how she learned to become such a good liar.

CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Yes, Jane. I think the verdict came in on that a long time ago. It`s not a possibly dysfunctional familiarly. It`s a terribly dysfunctional family. And of course, today we also got in at the end of the day, evidence of the suicide note.

And the fact of the matter is it is for the viewers out there to decide. Could George have lied about the affair? Which I`ve got to tell you, all of the e-mails, the Facebooks.

People find Krystal Holloway, a person of bad character but telling the truth about the affair. She even cops to making the first move on him.

And the bottom line is, could he have lied about that affair on the stand, and if he did, are you able to believe everything else he said if you want to disbelieve him about the affair? Or is a liar a liar a liar? So we have to throw out that he has said so far. That`s the real question for the jury. All of her testimony only goes toward credibility. Everything about there was an accident, snow ball. That has all been tossed.

Here`s the thing that I don`t get. This was the moment we all waited for. Everybody including myself in the courtroom. I`m tweeting every two seconds. Three minutes until Casey might testify. Two minutes until Casey might testify. We`re all on pins and needles. She gets up and this is what happens. Check this out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BELVIN PERRY, JUDGE: OK. Mr. Baez, you may call your next witness.

JOSE BAEZ, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Your honor, the defense rests.

PERRY: Will the defendant be testifying?

BAEZ: No, sir.

PERRY: I have some questions I need to ask of your client.

BAEZ: Yes, sir.

PERRY: Miss Anthony, do you understand -- first of all, is it your decision not to testify based upon consultation with your counsel?

CASEY ANTHONY, ON TRIAL FOR MURDER: Yes, sir.

PERRY: You understand that your decision to testify or not testify is solely your decision and your decision alone?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, sir.

PERRY: And it is your decision not to testify?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, sir.

PERRY: Have you had ample time to discuss this matter with your attorneys? That is, the pros and cons of testifying or not testifying?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, sir.

PERRY: And has anyone used any force or pressure in making you arrive at that decision?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

PERRY: And that decision is your decision freely and voluntarily?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, sir.

PERRY: OK. Thank you, ma`am.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow! I was waiting. I wanted to hear her. Judge Larry Seidlin, she is the consummate liar. She convinced everyone of her lies. So why wouldn`t this be her crowning moment? Her piece de resistance? The moment she`s been waiting for the whole life, to lie to the world and have us? What a challenge. Why didn`t she take it?

SEIDLIN: Because she is a meatball. You can`t put her in front of the jury and speak. She`ll just blow the whole scene. She doesn`t know the truth. She has no credibility.

I want to know why George, the father, in front of the jury, had all these opportunities. Why didn`t he say that she`s a good daughter and she was a good mother? Why did not he lie about that? Why did not he try to save his daughter?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ll tell you why. Because it`s OK to lie about certain things, but it`s not OK to lie about other things like molestation. I think when -- Casey crossed the line when she accused her own dad of molestation, and he gradually got to the point where he was like, co- dependent no more. "It`s her or me." This is a family at war.

And I want to bring in Jayne Weintraub. You`re very close to the defense. This is a family at war. What`s so bizarre is George is sitting next to Cindy while his alleged mistress is calling him a liar. Then Lee and Cindy and George sit next to each other. Cindy gets up and says something. Lee gets up and calls her a liar. I mean, what is going on with this family -- Jayne?

JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The family is extremely dysfunctional, to say the least. But two things have happened, Jane.

You know, we have seen the defense go up and down. But consistently, this is the image that you have. You have no cause of death. You have no chloroform, which is the theory of the state. You have one hair of chloroform that`s never been used in a court of law before. Junk science, the air. They`re not going to breath it. So that`s gone. You have no duct tape, because Dr. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to carry the duct tape, and so did Roy Kronk. So there`s no more duct tape. What is that? That`s no more first-degree murder. No more premeditation. And no more aggravated child abuse.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Some people would say this was a great day for the prosecution. I don`t really think so. Because I`ll tell you what. There`s a saying in program, in 12 step. Half steps avail us nothing. If we want to have a moral, ethical life, we have to practice rigorous honesty.

So you can`t accuse somebody else of lying when you`re lying yourself. So I think that the lying has gotten so rampant in this trial, the jurors` heads must be spinning. Spinning. We can`t figure it out. And in confusion, there could be reasonable doubt.

OK. Did George Anthony`s alleged mistress prove that he lied on the stand? You`re going to hear more from her in her interview with Vinnie Politan. We`re playing it right here on ISSUES, and we`re taking your calls. 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOLLOWAY: I didn`t think that he could raise somebody that was capable of harming her child. And that`s when he said it was an accident that snowballed out of control.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOLLOWAY: I know what did I was wrong. OK. I have paid for it in a year`s time. And now it`s like I`m paying for it again. I know I lied. I know I slept with a married man. It doesn`t justify what I did. But he has to take some responsibility, too. And he`s not. Everybody is making him out to seem like he`s so innocent. If he was innocent, why is he at my house?

Two or three days later, why are you texting me this? You`re supposed to be in mourning. The prosecution has all the other texts that they never released.

POLITAN: How do you go from being a volunteer to being -- to looking for his granddaughter to being his lover?

HOLLOWAY: Well, see, that`s just the thing. I -- I was limited in what I could say in the court.

POLITAN: You`re not limited. How do you become his lover?

HOLLOWAY: It was just him and I down at the tent. And sometimes there was maybe another person. And the gentleman for Kid Finders. And a lot of times it was just us tow. That`s how we sat and we got to know each other.

POLITAN: Who makes the first move? Who makes that -- someone has to.

HOLLOWAY: I did.

POLITAN: You did.

HOLLOWAY: Yes. And I told -- I told the detectives that I did. That it was me. It was in the garage and it was me.

POLITAN: Why?

HOLLOWAY: I think -- I don`t even remember the conversation that we had.

POLITAN: Why George Anthony? You know where he is in his life, right? He`s vulnerable, he`s reaching out. Someone reached out to him.

HOLLOWAY: Yes. I wasn`t taking advantage of him. It was just something that happened. There were several times we slept together. But he didn`t even admit to that. This is the thing.

POLITAN: He`s denied all of it. I know. We`re trying to figure out what type of -- was it just one time? One moment of weakness? Or was this a continual...

HOLLOWAY: No. It was several times.

POLITAN: Over a course of how many days, weeks, months was it?

HOLLOWAY: Within like maybe two and a half months? Three months? Almost three months. I would say about five to six times.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that was more of Vinnie Politan`s exclusive interview with a witness today, George Anthony`s alleged mistress, Krystal Holloway, a.k.a. River Cruz. And I have to tell you, not only did she testify in court but then she came over here to our HLN studios, which are in a tent right across the street. She said, "I want to tell my story. And I started." It sounds like somebody who is telling the truth to me. Which means Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, you spent time with the Anthony family. George is a liar, you say?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: In this regard, absolutely. And let me tell you, hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. And you`re seeing it right now. All he had to do was acknowledge the affair. Let her down easy. But no. He walked away from it immediately, because he don`t want Cindy driving a...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But here`s the thing. In Hollywood they call it the shape shifter. He looks like one guy, and he turns into another.

I`ve been feeling sorry for this guy the whole time. I`ve been saying he`s a victim, he`s almost a martyr. Is he like more sophisticated than we`re giving him credit for? Pulling, sort of snowballing us just like Casey has snowballed us in a way?

PADILLA: Look, my daughter at 7 and my son at 9 changed the price on a kite. I made them walk back in to that store and tell the store keeper what they`d done. To this day, my daughter is 45. You ask her what`s the worst thing that ever happened to you in your life? And she said walking back into that store.

They never did with their daughter. They made excuses for her. She`s not seven months pregnant. She graduated from high school. She`s getting two college degrees. They did all these excuses. And in their minds, George himself now has made an excuse. Yes. He`s a grandfather like I`ve said. He`s a father and he`s an ex-cop. OK. Somewhere along the line, he became a dog like the rest of us.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I wouldn`t insult dogs. OK. Listen, a lot of people want to weigh in on this. The phone lines lighting up. Let`s start with Rona in New Jersey.

CALLER: Hello?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Your question or thought, Rona. Your question or thought.

CALLER: Yes, I wanted to say I`ve been watching this for the last three years. And I am very positive that this woman -- they had three years to put this case together. So somewhere along the line somebody got to Miss Holloway and coerced her to saying this. I don`t believe that he had an affair with her.

And on top of that, look at Jose Baez`s eyes. He`s a snake. He is not to be trusted. I don`t think he`s a trustworthy attorney at all. Grasping at straws and blaming everything on George Anthony. This is not true. Look at the two of them.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, Levi Page, of the "Levi Page Show." Is she telling the truth? You talked to her in person.

LEVI PAGE, HOST, "THE LEVI PAGE SHOW": Yes. I`ve interviewed her on my show multiple times. I`ve talked to her off the record, as well.

And if you go back to the police report that she gave a couple of years ago to the Orange County detectives, it`s 137 pages. I`ve read it all. And in that 137 pages, during that interview, the detectives sought her out. They found her. She did not go to them.

I found her very credible. And plus, you know what? I don`t believe George Anthony molested Casey. I don`t believe he was involved. River agrees. She`s not an agent for the defense.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`re -- we`re just getting started.

Lying, that`s the theme...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PERRY: And who were you extending the finger to, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Ashton.

PERRY: And what was -- and what was Mr. Ashton doing at that time, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know.

PERRY: I will sentence to you to six days in the Orange County jail, impose a fine of $400, along with the applicable statutory court costs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: This was actually unbelievable. That young man there was caught giving the finger to the prosecutor while the prosecutor was at the podium. Somebody snapped a photo of him. He was confronted with it. He admitted it. And this no-nonsense judge, Belvin Perry, sentenced him. They cuffed him there, and they led him off to jail for contempt of court.

I`ve got to tell you, Casey Jordan, what ran through my mind is, whoa! If this jury comes back with murder one and recommends the death penalty, now we know the character of the judge we`re dealing with. He believes in punishing people.

JORDAN: Oh, we got that during voir dire, when he took a mentally challenged woman out of court who`d had an outburst and sentenced her to four days in jail. He was going to sentence her to pay $400, as well, but she was on Social Security disability for her mental problems, had to take her medication. And he let her off the fine but she still had to spend three days in jail.

Judge Perry takes -- he does not suffer fools gladly. Let`s put it that way. He doesn`t take anything from anyone. This young man had to have known that. And I think he wanted to wipe that defiant look right off this young man`s face. He made him say on live television where he worked, you know, asked him about where he lived.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I have to say, Leonard Padilla, you`re chuckling, chuckling, chuckling. He thinks this is the funniest thing in the world, but Leonard, you were saying that the judge did this kid a favor?

PADILLA: He did. And the next time the president of the United States is in this town, he`s not going to flip off the president and he`s not going to flip off the vice president or the queen of England. That kid learned a lesson. Six days is cheap. If my kid did that, I`d probably just want him in jail for about six months.

CASAREZ: And I think every kid in this country learned a lesson. Because you respect court. This is on national television. I think it tells everyone, courts are to be respected and you are to respect them.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And isn`t it a metaphor? It`s so ironic that this is happening in the Casey Anthony courtroom, where the entire problem with Casey is that nobody ever did that to her. These parents enabled -- enabled this girl to become a monster, Leonard.

PADILLA: Look up TGIF. That particular restaurant in Casey Anthony`s files. Look it up.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, OK. You`re saying this guy is a waiter at this particular restaurant. And you`re saying Casey Anthony went there and this is some kind of crazy nexus where it all boils down to, anybody? No, I like TGIFs. I go there and I have my little vegetarian meals. What?

CASAREZ: Casey watched all this in the courtroom. She watched that young man get handcuffed. She was sitting right there.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think that must have scared the wits out of her. Levi Page? I mean, honestly, wait. Hold on.

PADILLA: Listen, here`s the bottom line. We either live within the system that we have created, this justice system or we go back to the OK Corral. You take your choice.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree. I mean, I think that there is a prison industrial complex that sentences a lot of people unfairly for nonviolent drug offenses, but I think there`s a lot of young people who have no concept that their actions have consequences. And tough love in the end is the best love. And if Casey had gotten the tough love she should have gotten, I believe she wouldn`t be sitting in the defendant`s chair right now. That is the moral of this story. Parents out there, tough love.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you think she`s going to -- yes or no?

MARK NEJAME, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR CINDY AND GEORGE ANTHONY: I say yes. She has to.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you think she`s going to take the stand?

BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, I think she needs to but I`m not sure she will.

NEJAME: That`s true.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. Mike Brooks, do you she`s going to take the stand? Five seconds.

MIKE BROOKS, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I think she should. But if she does, Jeff Ashton will rip her apart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Casey Anthony today stood up. I was watching it. And she said, "I am not testifying." And that was a huge bombshell decision. Right now we`re going to debate whether that was smart or dumb for the defense to do.

Jay Hebert, criminal defense attorney, good move or bad?

JAY HEBERT, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely hands down the only play that they had in this case. It probably saved her from the death penalty.

Here`s the reason why. This jury is not going to like her. We know that. We know the facts dictate that. We know everything about this case. If she had gotten on the stand and lied even more, not only would this jury hate her for what she`s done, they would hate her for what she`s doing. And then Judge Perry would hold that against her because he has the ultimate say; the only good decision that I`ve seen out of the defense throughout the entire case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I don`t know, Casey Jordan, because a lot of people say this defense has been a disaster. Who knows? I never predict. Because if the jury came back with an acquittal then we would all look like fools.

But considering that she has admitted that she lied about a whole bunch of things; she lied -- she`s already admitted there is no Zanny. She admitted that she didn`t have a job.

She admitted -- and a lot of the things that she is possibly allegedly lying about according to the prosecutors, there is no way to prove. She said she was molested. So she can get on the stand and say she was molested again. I don`t know if it was the smart decision -- a safe decision, Casey.

CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: It was the safe decision; I absolutely do believe that it saved her life. But the problem was the opening statement. She didn`t make that; her attorney made that. Whose decision was that? That was the catastrophe that opened up the door that made us all say Casey has to testify. She has to testify.

Actually, no; we would never have had that expectation if there had been an opening statement that simply chalked it up to an unknown accident and chalked her 31 days up to an unknown trauma.

But instead, details got articulated. A check got written that there was NSF. There were no funds available to cash it. We were all sitting there with bated breath today waiting for her to take the stand. Jose Baez has to own that. That was his mistake.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I mean if she was going to say there was an accident. And it was only her and her alleged father allegedly there at the alleged drowning that the prosecution says never occurred. So she could have sold that story. She is a pathological liar; she could have stowed (ph) the molestation story. And she has already admitted she lied about everything else. I don`t know if it is such a smart decision after all.

Nicole, Texas; your question or thought Nicole.

NICOLE, TEXAS (via telephone): I feel that if Casey Anthony was actually innocent, she should have just taken stand to defend herself. But instead she just stayed quiet. What we do have though is a dead little girl and it just seems rather cowardly not to face your accusers.

I know, I`m a mom and if I was innocent of murder I would definitely want to set that record straight. I just think it shows how little she actually cares about Caylee.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, there you go.

Leonard Padilla, that`s like a shadow juror. I think a lot of jurors might be -- if she`s innocent, if it really was an accidental drowning, why not get up and say it?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Here`s why she says she`s not guilty and she will consistently say this. She sold Baez on the story of the drowning and threw her dad in there. But the thing about it is, she says she`s not guilty of murder one because it was an accidental overdose of chloroform. She in her mind is not going to accept the legal thing in Florida that if you act in that manner --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What is stopping her from -- what would have stopped her from getting on the stand and saying it was an accidental drowning? Exactly what --

PADILLA: She wanted to. There`s no doubt in my mind. I`m telling you, Jeff Ashton would have come up against the toughest person on cross.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So why didn`t she do it?

PADILLA: Baez told her you do that and I`m out of here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Huh. Well, what do you think Jayne Weintraub? You`re close to the defense, do you think that Baez said if you take the stand, I`m out of here?

JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. I don`t think so. I think that he advised her what cross-examination by Jeff Ashton would be like and they made the decision and the advice not to testify. And it was the absolute 100 percent correct decision.

How could she have ever stood up to cross-examination and been credible in the guilt phase? She couldn`t have. Cross-examination would have been well, if it was an accident, why didn`t you call? Why didn`t you do this? Why didn`t you do that?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What is the worst question that -- what`s the question the prosecution could have asked her?

WEINTRAUB: Why didn`t you report it to the police if it was an accident? What was the big deal? I mean tragedies happen.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: She`s already explained that.

What`s the worst question that they could have asked her?

HEBERT: They would have started just like they did with their case in chief. And they methodically would have gone through the time line. They would have talked about the actual event. They would have gone through the events involving the 31 days and tried to get her to justify it.

Your panel is correct. This was the right decision. Any good defense attorney would have mock tried this. We would have gone through this over and over and over again. And she would have had an opportunity to be facing probably Jose or maybe Cheney Mason or one of the other lawyers. And they would have mock tried this. And they would have had a feeling for this and she would have recognized because remember, ultimately this was her decision.

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me ask you a question. She`s in jail 23 hours a day in solitary. How could she do a mock trial?

HEBERT: I can tell you in every high profile case and every case that we ever had, I go sit down. I get a room and I`m able to sit down with my associates and we sit down and we cross-examine our clients on the spot. One lawyer plays the direct. One lawyer plays the cross and we play (ph) that out.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And you think that happened in the Orange County jail.

HEBERT: If it didn`t happen, it should have happened.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jayne, do you think it happened?

WEINTRAUB: I know it happened. I do know it happened. And number two, I think there was a very powerful ending to the defense. Regardless of what`s being said here --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Powerful?

WEINTRAUB: Powerful. I`ll tell you why. I was in --

(CROSSTALK)

WEINTRAUB: Jane, I was in court almost all day. I came back from court at 2:00 in the afternoon to my office and I saw on the stand Cindy Anthony talking about how they buried the dog with a blanket, a stuffed toy that was the dog`s toy, and duct tape in a plastic bag. To me, that was stunning testimony -- stunning. What does that sound like?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me tell you something. She also testified that Casey was in high school, was old enough to see all those burials and see exactly how they were carried out.

So I think frankly, Casey Jordan, it was a wash. It could have been George but it also could have been her. She saw that tradition.

JORDAN: I don`t even think it was a wash. I think it was terribly prejudicial against Casey because I walked away from that thinking, well there`s an explanation for how and why she put Caylee in a plastic garbage bag and threw it in the woods. And why she borrowed a shovel from the neighbor because she was going to bury her daughter like she would have buried a pet.

That`s the impression the defense left me with and that`s not a good thing. No one should have been left with that impression as the last Cindy Anthony testimony.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Well, it is historic, the fact that she did not take the stand and you`ve got to wonder if Casey is always going to regret that decision. Regret the decision not to get on the stand and tell the jury her story.

We know she is a good lawyer -- a talker, rather. I`ve been around too many lawyers today. We know she`s been a very convincing liar her whole life.

Check out some of her real life performance. You decide for yourself at home if you think she should have taken the stand. Check it out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, ACCUSED OF MURDERING DAUGHTER: In my gut I know she is still ok. I can feel it, mom.

I love you, too.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The house is very quiet.

CASEY ANTHONY: And we`re coming home. And we`re all going to be back there. We`re all going to be home together.

I`ve been here a month today. Do you understand how I feel? All I want is my kid back, to be back with my family. And with keeping me here, you`re not helping me help myself.

You know what`s funny? I`m going to say this and you`re going to laugh and I think it is hilarious.

Can someone let me -- come on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. So, we`re debating should she have taken the stand. She decided not to today.

Look at her. She`s articulate. We`ve seen her manipulate just about everybody.

Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, you spent time with Casey Anthony. Do you think she made a mistake in not taking the stand?

PADILLA: Under the circumstances, where she`s lied all the way up to now, she should have taken the stand and taken a chance on carrying the lie out. Now, if she would have gotten up there and got up there and said time-out; I overdosed her with chloroform and I want to come clean on this whole thing. She might have incurred some of the pity of the jury.

But I think that everybody told her, you have to stick with the story we started and we`ve got to go through to the end.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What would have tripped her up? You`re saying she`s a great liar. You`re saying that she would have given Jeff Ashton, the prosecutor --

PADILLA: -- a run for his money.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- or Linda Drane-Burdick a run for their money.

PADILLA: She would never have won. She would have lost. But he wasn`t going to break her at all. She has no reality in our world. She lives in her own world.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And why do you think that is?

PADILLA: That`s the way she was raised. Lie upon lie.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. This is what I`m hearing because I think that the point is to learn something from these cases. What I`m learning is for some people, the truth is a dead issue. It never crosses their mind whether they`re saying something that`s truthful or untruthful. When the truth is not something that you`ve been taught to respect, you don`t even think about the truth when you`re speaking. All you think about is what works.

So I think that for parents out there, what we really need to do is to remind ourselves that our children see how we behave. They don`t do what we say; they do what we do. If they see us lying, they will become liars themselves.

That, I think, is something that we have to remember watching this case.

All right. The defense has rested. Should Casey Anthony have testified? We`re debating it. We want to hear from you, 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, PRESIDING OVER CASEY ANTHONY TRIAL: Is it your decision not to testify based upon consultation with your counsel?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, sir.

PERRY: You understand that your decision to testify or not testify is solely your decision and your decision alone?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, sir.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m frustrated. And I`m angry. And I don`t want to be angry.

PERRY: Is it your decision not to testify?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, sir.

You want me to talk and give me three seconds to say something.

CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: All right. I`ll listen. Go, sweetheart.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m not in control over any of this.

JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: And that`s what this is; just more blah-blah-blah-blah-blah.

CINDY ANTHONY: What do you want me to tell Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: That mommy loves her very much.

BAEZ: Your honor, the defense rests.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You would agree the story is much sexier if you`re actually having an affair with George than if you`re just a friend.

KRYSTAL HOLLOWAY, ALLEGES AFFAIR WITH GEORGE ANTHONY: I did have an affair with George.

CASEY ANTHONY: We want to have that fixed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey, where is Caylee? At least where are her remains?

BAEZ: This is not a murder case. This is not a manslaughter case. This is a tragic accident.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight here on ISSUES, we are grading the defense. They rested. Now remember, in his opening statement, defense attorney Jose Baez referred briefly to Casey`s alleged molestation by her dad and insinuated the brother, too and to Caylee`s alleged accidental drowning, that the father discovered and covered up. But today the defense rested without explaining all of those claims.

Let`s check it out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BAEZ: It all began when Casey was 8 years old and her father came into her room and began to touch her inappropriately.

She could be 13 years old, have her father (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in her mouth and then to go school and play with the other kids as if nothing ever happened.

Caylee Anthony died on June 16th, 2008 when she drowned in her family`s swimming pool. Shortly thereafter George began to yell at her. "Look what you`ve done. Your mother will never forgive you and you will go to jail for child neglect for the rest of your freaking life."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.

Michael, New Hampshire, your question or thought, Michael.

MICHAEL, NEW HAMPSHIRE (via telephone): Thank you, Jane. I just want to let you know, I enjoy your program.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you.

MICHAEL: My question is, since the defense has not proven Caylee`s death was an accident or that George or Lee sexually molested her or that George Anthony was involved in the cover up and disposal of Caylee body, what is the defense going to argue at closing arguments?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Jayne Weintraub, you`re close to the defense. The general consensus is they didn`t really prove all those claims they made in opening.

WEINTRAUB: Well, they`re going to argue that the state did not prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. Remember, regardless of what Jose said or did not say in opening statement, what the lawyers say is not evidence. What the evidence came in from the witness stand and was introduced before the jury, that`s what you`re going to pick apart.

So Jose is going to argue, how the state did not prove its theory, did not prove premeditation, did not prove second-degree murder, period. There was no chloroform, duct tape; that evidence is gone. There is no homicide. They don`t have a cause of death or a manner of death.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I mean in a sense, Jayne Weintraub a point. We know that meter reader Roy Kronk used his meter stick to poke the skull. And a lot of people are going to say well, that means you can`t really say anymore that the duct tape was placed over the mouth because maybe that altered or the water. The body was underground under the water for months the prosecution contends.

HEBRT: well, I think that the defense scored two major points. The first being when they had Cindy come back and talk about the ladder and the gate being open. When they planted that seed, they`re now going to try to argue that that is part and parcel to the accidental drowning. Secondly: the Kronk situation involving the skull and the location and whether it was moved.

But is that going to carry the day? That`s the $64,000 question. They made a lot of promises in opening. They did not keep up their end of the bargain; whether the jury holds that against them that we`ll have to see.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Now, we talked about duct tape; that that might be out the window. That is the one aspect of premeditation.

The other is the chloroform. The prosecution says Casey was searching for chloroform and a bunch of other sinister things. And, of course, Cindy said, "No, no, no. It was me. I wasn`t really at work as I said I was. I was the one doing all those damaging search." Was she trying to protect her daughter?

Now, we expect that the prosecutor will bring on Cindy Anthony`s former co-workers when the prosecution calls rebuttal witnesses starting tomorrow. The question is, will they show that Cindy was lying when she testified that she was the one who Googled the word "chloroform".

Here`s what she said. Let`s recap what she said on the stand.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LINDA DRANE-BURDICK, PROSECUTOR: I take it that you did not tell them that you made those searches. Correct?

CINDY ANTHONY: I did tell law enforcement. In fact, I told you during my deposition in 2009 that I made those searches.

DRANE-BURDICK: You told me at your deposition that you searched for chlorophyll. Correct?

CINDY ANTHONY: Yes.

DRANE-BURDICK: And you spelled chlorophyll for me. Do you recall that?

CINDY ANTHONY: Yes.

DRANE-BURDICK: Sci-spot.com\chloroform?

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t know if it came up that way.

DRANE-BURDICK: Were you on that Web site 84 times?

CINDY ANTHONY: I was on it --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Casey Jordan, are they going to show that she is lying or not? Quickly.

JORDAN: Absolutely. They would not be having the vice president of Gentiva (ph) come in to validate some kind of time card that proves apparently that she was at work that day. And I have so much respect for Attorney Bejar (SIC) but that testimony about the ladder, if they find out she lied about her time card, they`re going to disregard the ladder, too.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`ve got breaking news on the other side. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOLLOWAY: I did have an affair with George. I spoke to the detectives and I told them the truth that I had been sleeping with George.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Krystal Holloway, a.k.a. River Cruz`s riveting testimony on the stand. Right in front of Cindy and George she said, "I had an affair with George." And she gives Cindy the evil eye.

Now, just a little while ago, George`s attorney responded to the "NANCY GRACE SHOW", let`s hear what that attorney, Mark Lippman, had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST, "NANCY GRACE": To Mark Lippman, this is George`s lawyer. I want to hear your response. While River Cruz is out making the TV rounds, she`s not coming on this show. But I want to hear what your response is on behalf of George.

MARK LIPPMAN, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: I think she`s a sad individual. And I`m surprised after her testimony today that she didn`t want to be a part of this mess, and she didn`t want to talk to the media, that she`s making the rounds now. But maybe it`s because she changed her name again to Krystal Holloway instead of River Cruz.

It really depends on who you get and which day it is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Nancy Grace will have the full interview with Mark Lippman, the attorney for George and Cindy Anthony at the top of the hour. You don`t want to miss that.

Mr. Hebert, what do you make of this public war with River Cruz coming right her on the set and saying "I had an affair" and then George`s attorney -- I mean this has really gotten crazy.

HEBERT: I`ll tell you what I make of it. What does it have to do with the death of little Caylee Marie Anthony? Absolutely nothing.

And the bottom line, this is an addict nation; you know that better than anybody.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, I wrote a book by that title.

HEBERT: They are addicted to reality TV. They want their 15 minutes. This woman had her 15 minutes. Whether he had an affair or didn`t have an affair, the bottom line is it has nothing to do with what happened in June of 2008.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, I have to say I don`t agree with you because -- well, I`ll let Leonard speak for me.

PADILLA: The big thing with the statement that George made, it was an accident that snowballed. By that time when we were out of it because I think she said it was before Thanksgiving that he made that statement?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes and let me clarify for our viewers.

The reason this all came up is that River Cruz, a.k.a. Krystal Holloway said that George in an intimate moment said, it was an accident that snowballed out of control. Now, on the witness stand today, she said several things, she said that she also implied that he said, I thought it was an accident that spiraled out of control. In other words, conjecture, not knowing something that he saw. This went back and forth for an hour. So I saved you a lot of time since you didn`t see the testimony.

But go ahead.

PADILLA: When we were out here in the first part of November, we already knew about the chloroform and all that. Rob was talking to George one day and said she tried to put her to sleep with chloroform, George. George says, it can`t be that way. He says yes, and she accidentally overdosed her because she was out of money, no prescription for Xanax. She learned how to make chloroform.

We knew that back when we were --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Who said this?

PADILLA: Rob told George that in a conversation.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Rob is your buddy, friend, partner?

PADILLA: Yes, partner. He tells George that, that`s what George was talking about, he`s not talking about the pool or anything. He`s talking about the fact that it was an accident. Now, what`s the law in Florida? Attorney -- Mr. Attorney, tell us.

(CROSSTALK)

PADILLA: It doesn`t matter.

HEBERT: If it`s aggravated child abuse, you can have a finding of death and felony murder kicks in, and you get first degree murder to which the death penalty can apply.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But you`re not saying George said that. You`re saying you`re buddy told him that?

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But he doesn`t know what happened. That was his conjecture.

PADILLA: Rob doesn`t know but that`s --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The bottom line is, nobody knows what happened except Casey Anthony, probably.

HEBERT: Exactly.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Keep it right here. We have some incredible final thoughts. I`m going to pick who`s going to give them in just a second. Stay right there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The two gentlemen with me tonight are going to predict what is going to happen in this case, starting with Jay.

HEBERT: I think that there`s no way there`s going to be an outright acquittal. They`re not going to get 12 people convinced that she`s not guilty. She`s going to be guilty on all four of the misdemeanors for lying -- that`s a given. Whether the jury finds -- whether it`s first or second degree murder, they have to make that decision? Felony murder may come into play, which brings first degree back in. My prediction: it will be a second-degree murder -- what we call the Braveheart over here in Florida.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that is -- you can get life.

HEBERT: 22 to life, that`s what she scores. Judge Perry will have the decision.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Take it away, Leonard Padilla.

PADILLA: Aggravated manslaughter, the other charges, she`s guilty of them. Ask the judge here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, I can tell you, you say she gets aggravated manslaughter.

PADILLA: He`s the judge; what would the judge do with her?

HEBERT: 15, standing still.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you don`t -- neither of you gentlemen think she`s going to be put to death?

HEBERT: Not a death case, never has been.

PADILLA: Never has been.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Guess what, people are saying, if she doesn`t get murder one death it will be considered a win for the defense.

"NANCY GRACE" is up next.

END