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After the Anthony Verdict; Inside the Anthony Home
Aired July 8, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
Primetime exclusive: inside the Anthony family. Casey`s bodyguard witnessed her strange behavior, George`s rage, and Cindy`s enabling remarks. The woman who lived in their home while Caylee was missing is with us here.
And it made me wonder, were the Anthonys actually afraid of their own daughter? You want answers. I do, too.
Let`s figure it out.
Freedom for Casey delayed. Well, just a little bit. But she is getting out of jail next Sunday.
And although she`s escaped a death sentence, now it`s her parents and the jury whose lives may also now be in jeopardy.
And while Casey let her hair down in court yesterday, today she was all business as she rejected a jailhouse visit from her mom Cindy. Interesting.
The trial may be over, but the interest and the intrigue is still escalating.
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION," TRUTV: Now, late last night, the release date for Casey Anthony was changed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony will now be let out of jail Sunday, July 17th. What is best for Casey Anthony`s safety?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe all these people right here will kill Casey if they had a chance.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey`s parents have received half a dozen death threats over the phone to their home.
And what are we learning about some of the jurors and some of the threats that they may be receiving.
SMITH: The threats that these jurors have been facing, just unbelievable.
JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, ORANGE COUNTY CIRCUIT COURT: Do you realize that there are folks out there that want to do crazy things like filet open someone?
NANCY GRACE, HOST, "NANCY GRACE": Now a petition to start Caylee`s Law.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It would make it a felony for a parent to not report their child missing for 48 hours or to not report that death.
PINSKY: Seventy-two hours since the Casey Anthony not guilty verdict, and public outrage continues.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Without a shadow of a doubt, she did it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`ll get her judgment some day.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Any time she comes out is too soon for me. OK? What she did was a disgrace to all -- not just Caylee, but all innocent children in the world.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That (EXPLETIVE DELETED) needs to die the most painful (EXPLETIVE DELETED) horrible slow death ever.
PINSKY: Guys, we need to calm down. It makes me anxious when I see all that fury. Come on now.
As Casey prepares to go free, her defense attorney Cheney Mason shared serious concerns about her safety with In Session`s Jean Casarez.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR, "IN SESSION": Are you concerned for her safety?
CHENEY MASON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Sure. Yes. Everybody around her knows you have to be concerned for her safety.
There`s a lot of nuts out there that don`t believe in the Constitution of the United States, don`t believe in the jury system. And all you have to do is go downstairs on the sidewalk and you`ll see.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. Just because people are angry, Mr. Mason, doesn`t mean they`re going to do crazy things. But all of us, we need to kind of channel this in a positive way, as I`ve been saying every night.
With me tonight is the host of truTV`s "In Session," and Florida prosecutor Stacey Honowitz. She is author of two books that help parents create an open dialogue about sexual abuse. One is called "My Privates are Private." And the other is "Genius With a Penis: Don`t Touch."
And as well, with us is criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh.
Ryan, let`s get started. Death threats directed at Casey. Are Cheney Mason`s concerns valid?
SMITH: You know, I think they are. I think you`ve got a lot of people who are very angry, upset in this area in particular, but also around the country about Casey.
There`s been so much talk about what`s going to happen with her safety after she`s released from prison. And here`s the thing, Drew. When they release her, the police may transport her to an undisclosed location, but after that she`s on her own.
So I think one of the big concerns is, where does she go from here? Even if she leaves the state, will she still face serious concerns to her safety?
PINSKY: I agree with you, Ryan. I think the people are -- I`ve not really seen people worked up like this in the sense of vigilante justice supervening the constitutional system. It`s a concern.
So, all of us, again, our system is in place far reason. Let`s just channel this in a positive way.
Now, I want to talk about one of the jurors, Jennifer Ford. She was juror number 3 in the Casey Anthony murder trial. This is what she told ABC`s "Nightline" when asked about Casey as a mother.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENNIFER FORD, JUROR: Nobody got up there and said Casey acted like Caylee was a burden to her and she never wanted to be a mother. I mean, nobody said that.
They all said that Casey seemed to have a good relationship with her daughter and it seemed to be genuine. So we had that on one hand.
And on the other hand, we did have the behavior that was questionable at best after Caylee died and she was out doing whatever she did. So it would have been helpful to have a witness that said either she neglected the child or the child was burdensome to her, or something to that effect. But nobody said is that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I`m really surprised by that interview. That`s the first time I`ve seen that clip, Mark. And she`s saying that, on one hand, everyone testified that she was a good mom. Yet, they did have hints about the neglectfulness.
Not one witness said she was a bad mom, apparently. But what are we to make about what she said, Jennifer said?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: OK. Bottom line, first of all, I applaud her for having the courage to come out, especially in this climate. We need to know and learn from this process. So bravo for her.
Secondly, I too am frustrated by the verdict. I don`t think it reflects what really happened. But these jurors, including her, did the best that they could.
People are condemning her and them for only spending 11 hours. That was the appropriate time, maybe even less, because at no time did she or anyone that she worked with on that jury feel like the prosecution met their burden.
I disagree personally, but legally that was the correct finding. So you know what? Let them be. Let`s move on. Let`s do something positive with our energy, Drew.
PINSKY: Hey, Mark, I totally agree with you. I`ve been saying it and I`m going to keep saying it.
But one of the things that really stands out for me about this issue you`re talking about, which is the prosecution`s ability to connect the dots for the jury, is when I talked to Jeff Ashton, he was very impressed by the skull and the tape. And in his mind, just that picture would tell the story of a murder to anyone who looked at it.
It didn`t tell the story to me. Where did he get that idea?
EIGLARSH: I loved -- it resonated with me. I went around telling people that was a compelling piece of evidence. But who cares what I think?
Ultimately, these 12 people sat, and 11 hours. They probably had their minds made up from the very beginning but sat for 11 hours out of respect.
And I always ask jurors to come back in less than five minutes. Not out of any disrespect or ego, but because they have to have a presumption of innocence. And that only gets stripped away when the prosecution proves their case beyond a reasonable doubt.
Otherwise, it`s not guilty. Not guilty, not guilty, not guilty. Evidence, evidence, evidence. It never changes, so it stays at not guilty.
They could have taken five minutes and their verdict would have reflected the truth.
PINSKY: Hold on, Mark. You`re using some novel language -- not guilty, as opposed to not proven? I`m stunned and shocked at you.
EIGLARSH: Those are still the only two options, guilty and not guilty. You know I would have changed it to proven and not proven.
PINSKY: I see. You prefer it that way. I get it.
EIGLARSH: Yes. That`s what it is.
PINSKY: But listen, I was responding to Marcia Clark today, who had a blog, and said that she felt that the jury itself had sort of gone into a group think and sort of brainwashed itself. I think the prosecution might have done that, being so impressed with the image of the skull.
There`s lots of reaction to Casey`s post-verdict appearance in court yesterday. We`re going to see some video of it.
As you can clearly see, she let her hair down, quite literally. Let`s see if we can see it here.
Come on guys in the control room. Get me that footage.
There she is. You can see she`s coming in the courtroom.
That`s a different Casey Anthony than we`re used to, where she`s sort of transformed maybe from librarian and very conservative, back to her more party-girlish appearance.
Stacey Honowitz, was she being disrespectful coming in like that? Or what did you make of it?
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Well, I don`t think she`s being disrespectful. I think this is the true Casey.
I mean, Mark will tell you, as a defense attorney, you want your client to appear a certain way in front of a jury. They wanted her to look conservative, stripped of the makeup, almost younger. Like too young to convict.
How can you put this girl to death? Look at her. She`s not wearing any makeup, her hair is pulled back. But now we see -- she thought she was walking out of the courtroom that day. This is the true Casey.
PINSKY: So you think that`s what she was doing, she was ready to just roll out and --
HONOWITZ: Yes. I think her lawyers probably said we`re going to try to get this all time served. You could be released today. Get all prettied up, all dolled up. You`re ready to go.
PINSKY: In your mind, where do you imagine she would have gone if she walked out of the courtroom?
HONOWITZ: I have no idea. I know she knows -- you know what? She`s vilified. Everyone hates her.
I`m sure her lawyers have warned her this is all going to be in transition. There`s going to be people set up, security people set up for her to go to a certain place.
An Oklahoma woman, Michelle Crowder (ph), has created a petition called "Caylee`s Law," and it`s gaining steam with over 700,000 online signatures.
Caylee`s Law -- this is a fantastic idea -- would establish two new federal offenses. One, failure of a parent to notify authorities of a missing child within 24 hours. Two, failure to report a child`s death within one hour.
Now, Ryan, last night I talked about channeling our anger toward something good. This seems like a -- maybe a good thing that`s going to come out of this.
SMITH: I have to agree with you 100 percent. And I feel the same way you do. I`ve been involved with a lot of cases over the years, and I always say, when you have anger, channel that in a positive way to effect change.
There`s also a push, Dr. Drew, in Pennsylvania. And Drew, what they want to do is they want to set up a seven-year penalty, make it a felony to not report a child`s death within an hour. And then up to five years in prison if you don`t report a child missing within 24 hours.
And when you think about it, it`s all about protecting our children. Part of the backlash on that is to say, well, it`s a knee-jerk reaction to what happened in this case, but I don`t think so.
What`s more important in this country than our children and making sure they`re safe? So, if people know there are laws out there to make sure that our children are protected, they will take that extra step. Maybe if Caylee died by accident, Casey would have made that call if she knew that there were penalties involved.
PINSKY: Yes. Ryan, I absolutely agree with you.
And remember, what is fueling our outrage, Stacey, is a child at the center of this story. These laws do not look unreasonable to me. I`m surprised we don`t have things like that on the books like that.
Is this a good idea?
HONOWITZ: Well, I mean, think about how pathetic that is though in the long run, that as a parent, you have to be told that you`re going to be criminally prosecuted if you do not report your child missing. It really is scary.
PINSKY: You`re right. You`re absolutely right. What does that tell us about ourselves?
HONOWITZ: I mean, that tells us that we don`t take children into consideration enough. We have all these child abuses cases. They`re not covered enough. This case was covered and it was all over --
PINSKY: And just to be clear, this is why you have written your books. You specialize in a lot of those areas.
HONOWITZ: I specialize in sex crimes and child abuse. And people don`t take these cases seriously enough. But to have to have a law on the books, of course. Is it knee-jerk? It has to be knee-jerk because people didn`t expect this.
PINSKY: OK. So, if I put words in your mouth, shame on us for needing this, but we need this.
HONOWITZ: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Thank you to my guests.
Thank you, Stacey.
Thank you, Ryan.
Thank you, Mark.
Ahead, Casey`s former roommate. Now, he met Caylee and he partied with Casey. And he`s giving us an inside look into Casey`s personal life. It`s very interesting.
And next, my primetime exclusive with the woman who lived in the Anthony home when Caylee was missing, during that time when she was gone. What she saw and heard will amaze you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: What was Casey like?
TRACY MCLAUGHLIN, ASSOCIATE OF BOUNTY HUNTER LEONARD PADILLA: Casey was the happiest, nicest person I`ve ever met.
PINSKY: Slow down. People are going to be surprised to hear this. Happy and nice?
MCLAUGHLIN: Happy, nice, charming. I expected -- I got to her house maybe two minutes before she did from jail. And I`m sitting on the couch thinking this was going to be the most awkward moment of my life because --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Earlier this week I talked with the woman who stayed in the Anthony home with Casey for nine days after she got out of jail in August of 2008. Tracy McLaughlin is an associate of bounty hunter Leonard Padilla. Their agency put up $500,000 in bail money for Casey.
Now, it was riveting to hear about the dynamics in the Anthony household during that time and Casey`s unbelievable lack of interest in her daughter Caylee`s well being.
Take a look at this primetime exclusive.
PINSKY: What was Casey like?
MCLAUGHLIN: Casey was a the happiest, nicest person I`ve ever met.
PINSKY: Slow down, because people are going to be surprised to hear this.
PINSKY: Happy and nice?
MCLAUGHLIN: Happy, nice, charming. I expected -- I got to her house maybe two minutes before she did from jail.
MCLAUGHLIN: And I`m sitting on the couch thinking this is going to be the most awkward moment of my life because it`s just a horrible situation. And everybody`s sitting in there.
Well, Casey walks in, George and Cindy are there, and she looks over and she said, "Oh, you`re the babysitter?" And she came over and gave me a hug.
And then Cindy hugged her. And, "Hi, dad." And Lee was there.
There was no crying, there was no urgency, let`s go find Caylee, let`s look for something. Casey`s hair smelled from being in jail, so she took a shower. And then we got out and planned dinner. She wanted her --
PINSKY: Did the family say, what`s going on with Caylee, can`t we get on with this?
MCLAUGHLIN: No. I think Cindy had said let`s handle this delicately.
PINSKY: So you mean it was because you were there they weren`t go to talk about it?
MCLAUGHLIN: No. I think because they knew what they were dealing with, with Casey. And they wanted to get the truth out of her. And as I stayed there, I figured it out. You had to just treat her with kid gloves.
PINSKY: And if you treaded on her lies, would she react with outrage or --
MCLAUGHLIN: She would close up and she would -- yes, she would -- "Don`t tell me I`m a liar. I`m the only one that knows what happened."
PINSKY: And she`ll get enraged?
PINSKY: She actually got angry with Leonard at one point, right?
MCLAUGHLIN: She got angry, yes.
PINSKY: For that.
PINSKY: What did she say to him?
MCLAUGHLIN: We had -- I`ll go back to -- the first morning I was there, I woke up to George screaming at Casey.
PINSKY: The first morning?
MCLAUGHLIN: The very first morning.
PINSKY: What was he screaming about?
MCLAUGHLIN: "Where is my granddaughter? What have you done with her? I know you`re lying. Quit lying."
It was just this huge deal. "Quit lying to me. Where`s my granddaughter?"
And she`s screaming back, "Don`t treat me like a scum bag, pop! Why don`t you try being a father for once?"
It was this huge fight. Well, she comes in the bedroom -- I was in her room, so she came in there just mad because she said my dad won`t -- "He always treats me like he`s a cop. He always thinks I`m lying."
Well, I didn`t say anything about that.
Cindy came in and she said, "George, we promised we wouldn`t do this to her. You`ve got to leave." So George had a friend Jim that was staying with him, and they took off for the weekend --
PINSKY: And then Cindy --
MCLAUGHLIN: -- on one of the Caylee missions that they go to.
MCLAUGHLIN: Hunts, yes.
PINSKY: Looking for Caylee.
So, George, from your perspective, it seemed like he had no idea about what was going on, except he had a hunch.
MCLAUGHLIN: He knew something was -- I think George knew something was really wrong, but --
PINSKY: But this whole idea of the defense put forward?
MCLAUGHLIN: That was horrible. I have no doubt that he has never touched Casey. I don`t think Lee has. I`m maybe not too sure about that one.
But I was getting back to when she yelled at Leonard -- this is going back to my story. George had to leave, and so I sat and talked to Casey.
And I said we`re not -- it`s hard to remember the way things went. But I said, "We`re not going to find her, are we?" And she just kind of smiled.
And one of the things I didn`t do was question, and I let her little - - I just let her do it her way. So I said, "Well, Casey" -- this is when Cindy came in, so maybe it was for Cindy`s sake. I said, "Leonard is a bounty hunter, he`s really good at this. If anybody can find Caylee, Leonard can."
This is when Zenaida had Caylee.
PINSKY: That was her lie then, Zanny the nanny had her.
MCLAUGHLIN: Yes, that Zanny had her.
So, against Jose`s wishes -- I mean, this was a whole sneak thing. He did not want Leonard speaking to her. He didn`t even really want me speaking to her. I wasn`t supposed to talk to her about anything important.
So Leonard comes in and sits down. He says, "OK. Well, where is she?"
And Casey starts with, "Well, I dropped her off at the Sawgrass Apartments." And Leonard says, "OK, but don`t tell me that story. I know you`re lying."
And it went on for maybe a minute. And she said, "You`re not treating me like a cop either. You don`t know what`s going on. This interview is over. Get the F out of my house."
PINSKY: Tracy talks about how childlike Casey was and how uncomfortable she was when Tracy tried to even bring up Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCLAUGHLIN: She just wanted to make everybody happy. She wanted everything to be happy. So I asked her at one point, "How can you not be upset with all this going on?"
MCLAUGHLIN: She said, "Well, I just can`t let this negativity get to me."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: You are watching a primetime exclusive, my interview with bounty hunter and bodyguard Tracy McLaughlin.
She spent nine days living with Casey in 2008 after her agency bailed Casey out of jail. Caylee was missing at this time, and the Anthonys were treading very carefully around Casey so they could get information out of her and not trigger her righteous indignation if they addressed her lies.
Here, Tracy describes how Casey didn`t seem that upset at Caylee`s disappearance. Watch.
MCLAUGHLIN: So I asked her at one point, "How can you not be upset with all this going on?"
MCLAUGHLIN: She said, "Well, I just can`t let this negativity get to me. I just can`t let that happen."
PINSKY: Did you follow on with any questioning?
MCLAUGHLIN: What do you say to that?
PINSKY: Just let it go? Yes. It`s so bizarre.
And my understanding, also, you said to me once that if you knew her for 10 minutes, you`d know something is very, very wrong.
What would I find out? What would I know? What would I feel?
MCLAUGHLIN: She wanted to play in her bed. She`s very immature. She wanted to play in her bedroom, put on clothes that matched. She had her ankle monitor, so she wanted me to wear a wristwatch around my ankle, which I did.
I went along with everything that she did.
PINSKY: So she was very, very childlike?
MCLAUGHLIN: Very childlike.
PINSKY: Did the parents infantilize her? Did they treat her like a little infant?
MCLAUGHLIN: I think they -- yes, they did.
PINSKY: Did you have any sense that she was impaired? Like neurologically impaired? Like there`s something -- a screw loose somewhere, something missing?
MCLAUGHLIN: There`s definitely a screw loose.
PINSKY: But I mean --
MCLAUGHLIN: She`s a smart girl. Smart, but not as clever as she thinks she is, or she would have known to maybe act like she was upset that she had a missing daughter.
MCLAUGHLIN: And then we hear the media -- well, you know --
PINSKY: But by screw loose, I mean a missing part. Like some part of her that we all understand as humans when we worry about our children, that we empathize with --
MCLAUGHLIN: Yes. She doesn`t have it. She doesn`t care. It didn`t --
Now, I also understand that you`ve said one of the most upsetting parts of the trial was when Jose Baez accused George in the opening arguments about molesting Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It all began when Casey was 8 years old and her father came into her room and began to touch her inappropriately. She could be 13 years old, have her father`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in her mouth, and then go to school and play with the other kids as if nothing ever happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: My understanding is you feel that George had nothing to do with any of this stuff.
MCLAUGHLIN: I don`t think that George did. And it was --
PINSKY: He didn`t know that the child had drowned, he didn`t know that -- he wasn`t involved in a cover-up, he hadn`t touched --
MCLAUGHLIN: No. I think he knew Caylee was dead only because when they found the car, and they hadn`t seen Casey -- and Cindy did try to find her. I mean, she`s an adult. She can take her child wherever she wants to. And Cindy knew that.
But when they found the car, they smelled that decomposition. They opened the trunk, they see that garbage bag. And I`m sure for a minute, an hour, whatever, their mind was tricked. It`s like, oh, I thought it was a body. It`s a garbage bag.
But when they got home and found Casey, and there`s no Caylee, that`s when Cindy`s 911 call happened. I think Cindy was in denial, but I`m pretty sure George knew something really bad had happened.
PINSKY: Such interesting insight into the complexities of this case.
Now, next, Casey talks to Tracy about the issue we`re all still debating -- chloroform. She brings up chloroform. Who in the household wanted to know more about it and why?
PINSKY (voice-over): Bodyguard, Tracy McLaughlin, was shocked by the verdict in the Casey Anthony trial. She`d spent nine strange days in the Anthony home, nine desperate days while Caylee was missing.
TRACY MCLAUGHLIN, LIVED WITH ANTHONYS IN 2008: Casey was the happiest, nicest person I`ve ever met.
PINSKY: She realized right away without a doubt that something in the Anthony household was really wrong.
MCLAUGHLIN: The first morning I was there, I woke up to George screaming at Casey.
PINSKY: First morning?
MCLAUGHLIN: Very first morning.
PINSKY: What was he screaming about?
MCLAUGHLIN: Where is my granddaughter? What have you done with her? I know you`re lying. Quit lying to me. Where`s my granddaughter? And she`s screaming back, don`t treat me like a scum bag cop. As I stayed there, I figured out, you had to just treat her with kid gloves (ph).
PINSKY: And Tracy is sure of something else, about George.
MCLAUGHLIN: I have no doubt that he has never touched Casey.
PINSKY: It was clear to Tracy that Little Caylee was in big trouble.
MCLAUGHLIN: I said, we`re not going to find her, are we? And she just kind of smiled.
PINSKY: And that Casey, in her own way, was too.
MCLAUGHLIN: She`s empty. I don`t even know. There`s something in her eyes. She`s empty. She`s like she wanted excitement.
PINSKY (on-camera): Welcome back. My guest tonight is Tracy McLaughlin. She`s a woman who spent time in the Anthony home in the summer of 2008 and was with Casey for nine days during that time. During this interview which we taped a few days ago, Tracy says, Casey brought up chloroform. Take a look.
PINSKY: I`ve seen people do lots of horrible parenting, but when they have a support system available, usually kind of turn it over to them. Why didn`t Casey just do that?
MCLAUGHLIN: Casey couldn`t do that because she was so caught up in -- it might be called image. I`m not sure what you want to call it, but Casey couldn`t -- she was sick of having her child --
PINSKY: She was?
MCLAUGHLIN: I`m saying if she -- she wanted to go out and party. She wanted to be with her friends.
PINSKY: Yes. Did you observe that, by the way?
PINSKY: OK. But --
MCLAUGHLIN: She didn`t care about Caylee. She didn`t mention -- Caylee was like a pain. She didn`t want to talk about her.
MCLAUGHLIN: Her type of personality, that would not be good for her image, for her friends to think, oh, you gave your child to your parents. It`s the same person who has -- she`s 22, she doesn`t have a babysitter. She has a nanny, you know? She doesn`t have --
PINSKY: Who paid for that?
MCLAUGHLIN: She didn`t have a nanny.
PINSKY: Oh, she never had anything like that. No. OK. She alleged that.
MCLAUGHLIN: But it was a nanny, not a babysitter.
PINSKY: I see.
MCLAUGHLIN: She didn`t finish high school and told me she was working on two college degrees. When there`s texting -- when the smell first started coming out in her car, she was texting a friend that two squirrels climbed up there and died. In the opening statements, not just her father but her brother molested her. Casey only has to take it to that higher level, and that excites her.
PINSKY: Making things overly dramatic.
PINSKY: My understanding is also she brought up chloroform with you.
PINSKY: Tell us about that.
MCLAUGHLIN: We were watching an episode -- I don`t watch much TV. I think it was a hills. Teenagers drinking at a bar.
MCLAUGHLIN: We were talking about getting drunk. She said, you know, she liked to drink. She said she liked (ph) to party. And I said have you ever heard of GHB. And she said, yes like roofies. And then said, yes, like eater (ph), and she said chloroform. That was it. but this was way before anything have come out --
PINSKY: Did that strike you as peculiar because chloroform --
MCLAUGHLIN: Not at the time.
PINSKY: I mean, people do use inhalants like chloroform, but it`s pretty unusual. It`s pretty rare.
MCLAUGHLIN: Well, I just thought she was smart, and she knew (INAUDIBLE). I didn`t know. I didn`t think anything of it. Not at all.
PINSKY: It`s interesting.
MCLAUGHLIN: Until it came out, you know, there`s chloroform in her car and all the other stuff. And I think, oh, that was a good conversation.
PINSKY: Right. Right. You also observed her reacting to bones being found in the park as opposed to on bones were found --
MCLAUGHLIN: I didn`t observe that. It upsets me. I don`t know. This is just, I guess, my opinion. When there`s a Texas Equusearch -- huge. You know, thousands of people out there searching for Caylee. Leonard took it upon himself during that search to have divers go out to the Blanchard Park because of some of the things that she said to me. I thought that maybe -- I thought that Caylee was under water because of a song that we listened to every day.
It`s called "The Pass" by Sevendust. I don`t remember the lyrics. I wish I could remember what they were, but it`s something about beneath the water, and then, something else I hope it doesn`t scream my name. I`ve erased the past again.
PINSKY: Wow! It was spooky, right?
MCLAUGHLIN: It was spooky, but she was in jail, and this was reported that we`re out there. The media tells that we found bones at Blanchard Park. Well, they lockdown the jail, and they put -- you know, she has to go back in and reports, and it`s probably videotaped through the jail. She did a little smirk, walked back in her cell, and it was no big deal. Now, when the body was found on suburban drive, she had a meltdown. She hyperventilated. She had to go to the medical doctor. This is all reported.
MCLAUGHLIN: To me, that says, OK, Casey and only Casey knew where that body was. If she didn`t know, why wouldn`t the Blanchard Park bones - -
PINSKY: Very, very suspicious.
MCLAUGHLIN: In my opinion, that`s something the jury should have heard.
PINSKY: There`s so much the jury didn`t hear, truly. Wouldn`t you say?
MCLAUGHLIN: Uh-huh. And what they did hear, I don`t understand their --
PINSKY: The verdict?
MCLAUGHLIN: Not at all.
PINSKY: You know, so many of us have been thinking about this case and studying and looking at her, and it`s easier when you have all the facts, not just what a courtroom proceeding, when you`re a sequestered (ph) jury, it must be very difficult. You know, it`s may be an indictment of our system than this particular case. And then, finally there was an experience with the photo album about Caylee`s photo.
MCLAUGHLIN: This is Casey wanting to -- there`s a couple things, like, we`re sitting on the floor talking about the stickers. She stuck me with a heart sticker on my knee, and I had a little smiley face sticker on my other knee. It was a little --
PINSKY: Childlike stuff.
MCLAUGHLIN: And one time, I had Caylee`s photo album on and I was looking at pictures of her. I said, oh, that`s a cute picture. Not sure what she was doing. And Casey said, no, look at this one. As I`m sitting on the floor, she covers Caylee`s photo album with hers of her and Lee growing up. She wanted me to look at those pictures.
PINSKY: And speaking of Lee, did you get any weird feelings about him?
MCLAUGHLIN: Not really. He was --
PINSKY: I recollect -- you and I --
MCLAUGHLIN: Distrustful of me, I think.
PINSKY: Well, he`s distrustful, and he`s also very executive.
MCLAUGHLIN: Oh, OK. Yes.
PINSKY: That seemed kind of peculiar to me, and he wasn`t there at the sentencing. That something funny there, just feels funny.
MCLAUGHLIN: At the time, Lee was the one that drove me to the house. We waited for Casey to get home. It was after they found the death band on the hair. And he called his dad -- he was driving home from work, George. And he said don`t listen to anything on the radio, get home. We`re going to talk, and he sat them down in the table. We`re going to do this, this, this. you know --
PINSKY: So, he was in control of the defense.
MCLAUGHLIN: Uh-huh. Cindy was afraid of Lee a little bit.
PINSKY: Afraid of her son. That`s her son, right?
PINSKY: Afraid of him?
MCLAUGHLIN: Not afraid, not like he was going to hurt her, but she had the fear that George had of Cindy from what I witnessed, Cindy had of Lee.
PINSKY: Interesting. So, what do you think is going to happen next?
MCLAUGHLIN: I think she`s going to get out.
PINSKY: Yes. Is she in danger?
MCLAUGHLIN: Oh, probably.
MCLAUGHLIN: They`ll probably hide her for awhile, but she`s not going to put up with that for very long. She wants to be out. She`ll want to be on TV. She loves the media. When I stayed there, she would be upset if there were clouds or the hurricanes because the helicopter wouldn`t be able at the house (ph). We counted the vans in front of the house every day. And at one point, this was when Rob and I were driving her, and she said, oh, I know what Jose and I could do.
We could go on the Howard Stern show. We could get some information out about Caylee, and then she laughs. And she said, no. He`d want to know what my bra size was, and if Jose was hitting it. It was just funny to her. Everything was funny.
PINSKY: How many days had Caylee been gone at that point?
MCLAUGHLIN: Thirty-one when she was arrested.
PINSKY: So, it`s like roughly 25 days or so?
MCLAUGHLIN: It`s past that amount of time. It`s when she bailed out. She got arrested July 15th. This was after August 21st, I think, was when they bailed her out.
PINSKY: It`s sickening, isn`t it?
MCLAUGHLIN: It`s really sickening. She didn`t want to be bothered with anything about Caylee. Not a tear. Not a deep sigh. It was almost an annoyance.
PINSKY: Well, you`re someone that has spent time with her and very few people have. What do you went down? What happened?
MCLAUGHLIN: What I think happened is she got in a fight with her mom. Cindy confronted her about stealing money from her grandmother. I think that`s coming out a little bit right now, but she got in a fight. I do believe she used chloroform. And in a fit of anger -- this is where I can`t guess if it was accidental. I mean, who should be putting chloroform to their child`s mouth in the first place? Accidental or on purpose. Put it in there.
PINSKY: And then, she, herself, disposed of the body?
MCLAUGHLIN: Yes. Well, she kept her in her trunk. To me, it`s so easy to figure out. Kept her in trunk, panicked, brought it back to the house, that`s when the duct tape went on, and that`s when the heart sticker - kidnapping, that`s what I`m going to do. That`s what she thought about. You know, had it in a trunk bag so it wasn`t smelling like, you know, people -- some friends had been by her car and they said they didn`t smell it. Well, OK, it didn`t smell yet.
When George almost got to the trunk with her gas cans, and she threw the gas cans out of -- I think she panicked then. Went down to her little spot, threw the body out, I think, the bag ripped, and that`s when that`s, you know, horrendous, smell was strong.
MCLAUGHLIN: Of course, that`s my own opinion.
PINSKY: Tracy, it`s chilling when you tell it. And, you know, I appreciate you sharing the story. I mean, you were the one there touching and feeling these people.
MCLAUGHLIN: Yes. There`s more.
PINSKY: Yes. I could talk to you all day. It`s fascinating. But I actually -- a feeling I get frequently during at the show when I`m reporting on Casey Anthony, I get a little sick to my stomach.
MCLAUGHLIN: I did yesterday, and I thought of you, because you said that.
PINSKY: I`m having that experience now. So, thank you for generating that for me. At least, a couple of (ph) shows I get it, but I do appreciate you coming on and sharing the story.
MCLAUGHLIN: Thank you.
PINSKY: I appreciate that.
PINSKY: Truly fascinating.
Next, my jury. The all star version is back. And later, Clint House. He saw Casey with Caylee. Did he ever suspect anything?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINT HOUSE, KNOWS CASEY, KNEW CAYLEE: All the lies that she told, and it`s because of all the lies that she told me and the rest of my friends like Tony and Cam and Nate. You know, we were all under the impression that she had a job at Universal Studios and that she was getting back in the school.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The Casey Anthony trial captured the nation. This weekend, Nancy Grace and the HLN team break down the most dramatic moments, the emotional testimony, and the shocking verdict. Don`t miss this HLN event. Justice for Caylee, a Nancy Grace special, Saturday, 9:00 p.m. eastern time, only on HLN.
Tonight, I`ve got the DR. DREW "Jury" all stars. I mean, those hard core jury fans or murder trial fans who waited in line for hours and risked being trampled to get a seat at the trial. Here`s just one little outbreak of aggression. Thanks to my jury. We got inside that courtroom.
Today, I`ve got Curtis White, Kelly Heaney, and Brett Schulman. And Brett, I think, you know I was calling you Barney Fife because you were there before the sharpie lady trying to create order out of the chaos. Stunning developments tonight, Cindy put in a request to visit Casey in jail, and Casey said no. Kelly, are you surprised by that?
KELLY HEANEY, DR. DREW "JUROR": I`m not at all. I mean, she`s gone three years without talking to them. It didn`t really go that well in the courtroom for them. So, that doesn`t surprise me whatsoever.
PINSKY: I need to know from all three of you, (INAUDIBLE) to treat you, guys, for trial withdrawal? How are you going to ever return to your lives?
BRETT SCHULMAN, DR. DREW "JUROR": I can tell you what. Dr. Drew, I think I actually have succumbed to what is called Casey-itis. I have totally withdrawal from the case not being able to observe and see what`s going on out there. And, I think the only thing that`s really going to cure this is me watching the Orange County sheriffs haul Casey away over to Nome, Alaska, where nobody knows her, and she can be totally safe.
PINSKY: Do you guys think she is in harm`s way as Cheney Mason has suggested? Any of you?
CURTIS WHITE, DR. DREW "JUROR": I think that -- I mean, walking the streets around here, there`s a lot of people that are fired up. And, somebody will try to take some action against her. In this situation, those people -- there`ll be enough evidence to convict that person for backlash against Casey.
PINSKY: Wow. All right. I`ve spoken to any of you since the verdict. Any of your reactions to the verdict and to those amongst you -- I mean, you`ve been interacting with the other people that have been, obviously, waiting in line and fighting hard to get in that courtroom. What`s the sort of general prevailing opinion out there and what is yours specifically?
HEANEY: Well, having a criminology degree, I have always said from day one that she is most likely to get manslaughter. But, obviously, the jury didn`t agree with that. I thought the state did make an error by going for the ultimate penalty. I think she would have most likely been convicted if they did go for manslaughter or even the aggravated child abuse. But, since they went for the ultimate, it was too much on the jury to, you know, take someone`s life away.
PINSKY: And you guys, agree? I see, you`re all shaking your head. Curtis, you were in the courtroom on the last day. What was that like when the verdict -- I think it was when the verdict was issued, right?
WHITE: Yes. I did get in there. And fortunately, I wanted to wait in line for the next day, and fortunately, 50 people didn`t show up. I was able to get in. It was complete silence. I sat up in the balcony. And they were so quiet that you can hear Baez turning pages that he was reading. And it was completely shocking to see the verdict come out. Either way, I think I would have had the same effect.
PINSKY: I`ve forgotten. Are all three of you from that area? Is that sort of your hometown vicinity around the court area?
SCHULMAN: That is correct.
HEANEY: Me, too.
PINSKY: So, what did your community do? What`s going to happen here? I mean, you guys, are just going to go back to work and go on with things. I mean, is the community talking about this? What is going to happen?
SCHULMAN: Well, I can tell you that I`ve talked to a lot of people since the verdict has gone out. A lot of people are miserable. They`re actually depressed. It`s like this was the greatest thing that happened, but then again, it turned into something that was basically a catastrophe, and I think everybody is just feeling very depressed and not happy at all that a `not guilty` was out there.
They wanted to see justice mainly for Caylee. And I don`t know if you notice or not, but yesterday, in Orlando, we had a day that I will never forget. Approximately 3:00 p.m., there was a tremendous major storm out here in the area where Casey Anthony actually lives. And a bolt of lightning hit a 60-foot tree right on suburban avenue that was right there, right in the front, where Little Caylee Anthony was discovered. And I think, it`s a higher jury responding to actually what happened.
PINSKY: Well, I`ve only got about 30 seconds left with you guys. I want to say thank you for giving us the view from inside the courtroom all through out these proceedings. You, guys, have been great. And Brett, thank you for trying to create some order out of the chaos there. I think the law enforcement probably did step in and do what they`re supposed to do, but you know -- remember, Orlando is a lot of children`s activities in Orlando without to name a few.
And you know, I hope Orlando does something to step up and do things on behalf of children and put this all behind you and do things in a positive way. I`ve got to run, but I want to thank you guys all. And hopefully, the Orlando -- I`ve been to Orlando many time, a wonderful community, and it needs to channel that energy in a positive way.
Coming up, we will preview our next primetime exclusive, the man who partied with Casey while Caylee was missing. He`s here with us, and we`ll be right back.
PINSKY: A lot of people who know Casey Anthony are talking now that she`s getting out of jail. One of those people is Clint House. He partied with her, even got her into a couple of hot body contests at a club. He knew Caylee as well. Here now is a preview of my interview with him.
PINSKY: In May, you testified about Casey and her actions -- interaction with Caylee`s mom. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever see Caylee malnourished?
HOUSE: No, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever see Caylee neglected in any way?
HOUSE: No, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever see Casey strike Caylee at any time?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever see Caylee - I`m sorry -- treat Caylee as if she were burden or negative?
HOUSE: No. Not at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you say she was a good mother?
HOUSE: Yes, I would.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Clint, given that your observations were that she had, at least, seemingly normal interactions with Caylee. What about this theory that she just wanted Caylee out of the way so she could go party, what did you think of that?
HOUSE: I really don`t know. She -- I don`t want to think that that was what happened, but we`re not going to know. So, really, I don`t know.
PINSKY: I mean, I would think if somebody had told me that a friend of mine had lost their child and that everyone was saying that he or she had done so so they could party, I have a pretty clear idea about whether or not I thought that was probable or not. How come it`s so hard with her?
HOUSE: Well, it`s because of all the lies that she told, and it`s because of all the lies she told me and the rest of my friends like Tony and Cam and Nate. You know, we were all under the impression that she had a job at Universal Studios, and that she was getting back into school. And I mean, I think that`s what it all boils down to is just all the lies. I mean, that`s, you know, what she is definitely guilty of is lying to everybody, you know, during the time that --
PINSKY: We sure know that. I mean, lie lies, lies, lies, lies. That almost defines Casey. When did you become aware that she was lying? Did you ever confront her about this? Was it only after this whole went down that you realized it?
HOUSE: Yes, it was after all this went down. It was after she was actually arrested that we started unearthing and finding out that, you know, nothing that we knew was the truth.
PINSKY: Other than lying, is there anything else that you observed that can help us understand what might have happened here? I mean, did you ever see her do anything bizarre or was her drug or alcohol use ever excessive? I mean, did you ever think -- did you ever pull her aside and go, hey, come on, what are you up to or I`m worried about you?
HOUSE: No, because like I testified to, she was completely normal almost all the -- you know, every time I saw her.
PINSKY: So, let`s add up that score. Probably not alcoholic addict but a drug abuser, alcohol abuser, liar, the one thing we know for sure, and that`s the one thing she was convicted of, interestingly enough. No reasonable doubt about that one. Now, Clint will be back on our show next week.
And don`t forget this weekend`s HLN event, Justice for Caylee, a Nancy Grace special. It`s on Saturday, 9:00 p.m. eastern time, only on HLN. We will continue trying to figure this story out. I`ve got more from Clint, more from important people around Casey and Caylee. Keep watching. We`ll see you next time.