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Casey Anthony: After the Verdict
Aired July 11, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Casey Anthony after the verdict. Her family destroyed, her reputation ruined. Will Hollywood embrace one of the most hated women in America?
I`m going to get to the bottom of it.
And now there are threats to the jurors, Cindy, and George. Come on people. Calm down.
Then the remarkable Jaycee Dugard. Kidnapping and captivity could not defeat her. I suspect there`s a message in this for all of us. I will tell you what that is.
Let`s go figure it out.
Still sad tonight thinking about Betty Ford, who died on Friday. I`ve not had a chance to tell you my thoughts about that and the incredible history and the incredible contribution that she made. I will talk about that a little bit later in the show. But first, I need to address the mob mentality surrounding the Casey Anthony case.
You might have thought it would die down a bit by now, but no. George and Cindy Anthony have both been threatened. Their attorney confirms this. And now a juror says she has gone into hiding because of death threats.
Some people on our Facebook page are saying enough. And I am saying that too.
This is dangerous stuff. Somebody is bound to get hurt. This is our system functioning. I keep saying this.
And the fact is, a mob mentality needs a catharsis. And without a catharsis, the mob continues to swell and circulate.
And let`s be very cautious with this. Don`t contribute to this. I certainly don`t want a frenzy because of something we`ve said here.
Let`s move on. As I`ve said repeatedly, let`s funnel our energy in a positive direction. Not just for Casey -- not just for, rather, Caylee, but for all of us.
Again, I`m going to say this later in the show, probably, because I want to emphasize it, but that resentments are like taking a poison and expecting it to hurt somebody else. You`re building up resentments and it`s not good for any of us.
Tonight, countdown to Casey`s release. What`s next for Casey Anthony?
Now, again, I just want to understand all this. I want to understand our behavior. I want to understand this case. So watch this and we`ll talk.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony is just six days away from freedom at this point.
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION," TRUTV: Now that she was found not guilty of killing her daughter Caylee, people are up in arms.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is disgusting. The baby -- what about her? Would you like to be in a trunk with tape on your mouth? Who else would put that baby in that trunk?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two-thirds of Americans think that Casey Anthony definitely or probably murdered her daughter Caylee.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, "ISSUES": It`s very important for the Orange County Corrections to get her out of their custody unhurt and OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Of course the question now is, how is she going to have a normal life? Where`s she going to go? What`s she going to do?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Most say she`s going to surface again in a big city, either in New York or Los Angeles. But it is anybody`s guess.
PINSKY: So where will Casey go when she gets out of jail this Sunday? She refused recently a jailhouse visit from her mother Cindy after the verdict came down. And George and Cindy`s attorney says Casey has not seen her parents since 2008.
Listen to this from NBC`s "Today Show."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is this family relationship beyond repair?
CHENEY MASON, CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t know that anything is ever beyond repair, but I would say the odds are pretty strong that it is. She may have a relationship in the future with her brother at some point. I may expect that. I don`t know when or how, but I think with her parents, that`s pretty well burned.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: There you go. He should know.
Now, can Casey go home, or will she be forced to leave the a state? Plus, could she get millions for an interview?
Former prosecutor Loni Coombs is here with me in the studio. As well, I`ve got criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh.
But first to Jane Velez-Mitchell, host of "ISSUES" on HLN. Jane joins us from Orlando.
Jane, what is the word on the street here -- there rather? What have you heard about where Casey is likely to go when she`s released?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, she is behind bars now. She is going to be released on Sunday, July 17th. And the word I`m hearing is it could very well happen in the dead of night.
Dr. Drew, they don`t want a bunch of lookie loos. They don`t want some kind of fiasco. They may very well leave the jail with five to seven vehicles with tinted windows. We will never know what car she`s in.
Jose Baez has said publicly he`s going to get her the heck out of Dodge, out of this area, where she is despised. So I think she`s going to go to an airport and leave and take off somewhere, and lay low. And then I think the clock`s ticking until the first big exclusive interview.
And as we all know, they don`t pay for the interview, they pay for the licensing fees for photographs and video, et cetera. Then after that I think she`s on her own.
She`s facing a lot of potential legal bills. I don`t know that she`s going to be able to sell a book or a movie because so much is public information. They could do a made-for-TV movie right now just with the information they have from the court. And she`s a pathological liar, so you won`t know whether it`s fiction or nonfiction if she tells the story. So I think she`s going to get one big shot, and then we`ll see what happens.
PINSKY: Now, Jane, you and Vinnie and Nancy are there in Orlando. You`re really catching the heat of this frenzy that`s going on.
What do you think people should do with all that energy? Do you have any sense of what can be done? Is it something that we`re all just going to have to stew in for a long time and try to understand? Or is there something positive we can do here?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think there`s absolutely something positive. And I think that there`s just a few -- I would call them crazy fringe people who, unfortunately, are crossing a line and making threats. But the vast majority of people are discussing this and trying to learn about it.
As I walk around the streets of Orlando, people come up to me with their conspiracy theories and their thoughts and what they feel that they`ve learned from it. And conversation is good.
I think we`ve all walked away with a little insight -- a little more insight into human behavior as a result of this case. So, aside from the crazies, I think everybody is pretty much taking away something positive from it.
PINSKY: All right. That`s reassuring.
Now, I have a question. Do Casey`s old jailhouse letters hold clues about what she`ll do when she gets out from behind bars? In her letters to another inmate, Casey says she`s missing getting manicures and pedicures, shopping -- boo-hoo. She talks about changing her name.
She writes in this letter about possibly writing a memoir. And most shockingly, she writes that she wants to get pregnant again.
Loni, do you think she`s really going to have another baby? I heard that she had even written someone about possibly adopting a child. And I thought, wow. In fact, Marcia Clark said, what would that adoption agency say?
First question: name, please? Casey Anthony. You`re kidding, right? You`re kidding. This is a joke.
LONI COOMBS, FMR. PROSECUTOR: Exactly. I`m adopted. I know the process. It`s a hard thing to do. Not anyone can just go out and adopt a baby.
PINSKY: But anyone can have a baby.
COOMBS: That`s exactly right. It`s harder to adopt.
PINSKY: I mean, do you think she`s likely to do that? But is she going to have one?
COOMBS: You know, I think she might. She`s very narcissistic. We all know that.
COOMBS: And this jury verdict confirmed all of her narcissistic beliefs in herself that she was victim, that this wasn`t her fault, and that she deserves attention and her time in the sun. And I think she really sees this.
I don`t think it has hit her as to how strongly people feel about the injustice that was done. And I think that all those things that she was fantasizing about in her letters, sure, if that`s what she wants to go out and do.
PINSKY: That`s an interesting point.
After the verdict was read, our producers actually overheard people in the halls, like right outside the courtroom, calling this a "travesty of justice." We actually saw people hysterically crying in response to the verdict right out there in the halls.
Now, how will Casey move on with her life when the court of public opinion is so clear in their belief that she is a murderer -- and not just a murderer, but a murderer of a beautiful young child at the center of this story?
Casey`s attorney defended his client on NBC`s "Today Show." Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MASON: I do believe her story. I believed it from the first time I met her.
It was several weeks before I actually formally was on the team. I went to her home, her room where one of the photographs are, and talked with her. And I have never for one minute had any doubt at all. She did not kill her child, period.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right, Mark. You`re a defense attorney. You have to defend people that you don`t necessarily like or even believe.
Has Cheney Mason drunk the Casey Anthony Kool-Aid? Do you think he`s bought into something here? It`s hard to see him have such a conviction about her.
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: To me, it really doesn`t matter. It just doesn`t.
Does her attorney believe her? Well, his information would only be based on what flowed from her lips, and she would have to admit, assuming she`s telling the truth, that she doesn`t tell the truth. So his belief would only be based upon her and what she says. And that`s not worthy of belief.
PINSKY: Loni, do you think that`s the case? I mean, do you believe your clients when they come up and they`re liars, and they lie to you all the time? And yet you`re going to defend what they say as the abject truth?
COOMBS: You know, I`ve been watching the interviews done with the attorneys of Casey. I think they do believe her.
PINSKY: I do, too.
But is that really an issue, Mark? I want to go back out to you again real quick. Does it matter whether you believe your client or not, really?
EIGLARSH: It doesn`t. It doesn`t. In fact, believability and accuracy, first of all, are two different things. There have been times where I believed my client. After the acquittal, I learned some things, and I guess I was bamboozled. I didn`t realize.
But it doesn`t matter. Again, the job of the defense lawyer is to, as we`ve clearly learned, create reasonable doubt.
The fact that Cheney or Jose actually believes them, OK, great. That helps them sleep at night. That`s OK. All in divine order.
But, ultimately, it`s about creating reasonable doubt.
PINSKY: Loni, you seem to have some discomfort with that. Do you?
COOMBS: Well, I`m a prosecutor, not a defense attorney. And that`s why I couldn`t be a defense attorney, truthfully.
COOMBS: I don`t want to have --
PINSKY: Articulate it. I want to hear it from your mouth.
COOMBS: I like to know the truth and present the truth, and I don`t like to put up just reasonable doubt. I don`t like to throw things up and hope that they stick. I would not be comfortable making an opening statement like Mr. Baez did.
Coming up, she was found not guilty of murdering her daughter Caylee. I think we all know that now. Will Casey Anthony speak out and tell her side of the story? And for how much? Could her daughter`s death make Casey a millionaire?
Stay with us.
PINSKY: As of tonight, Casey Anthony will be a free woman in six days. Now, will Casey`s infamy buy her 15 minutes of fame? Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: While we`re happy for Casey, there are no winners in this case. Caylee has passed on far, far too soon. And what my driving force has been for the last three years has always been to make sure that there has been justice for Caylee and Casey, because Casey did not murder Caylee. It`s that simple. And today, our system of justice has not dishonored her memory by a false conviction.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: But when Jose says that, I feel hundreds of thousands of people yelling at the television, going, "She wasn`t convicted of that crime, but she had something to do with it!" And there`s that beautiful child dead, and she had something to do with it. We all just know it.
Now, he says the court system has not dishonored Caylee`s memory, but will Casey dishonor her daughter by perhaps making millions off of Caylee`s death -- book deals, movie deals, interviews? It could all be on the table for Casey. And when she gets out of jail, it`s her decision. Or, will she have to go into hiding for a while, or will she decide to stay in the spotlight and tell her side of the story?
Her side, mind you.
Please, people. It`s almost laughable to think about that, because whatever her side is, I certainly am not going to believe a word that comes out of her mouth.
Back with me are attorneys Loni Coombs, Mark Eiglarsh, and host of "ISSUES" on HLN, Jane Velez-Mitchell.
Jane, what do you think? Is she going to sell her story?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I certainly think she would love to. I think her attorneys want her to lay low for the time being, for the foreseeable future. And I do believe they`re going to whisk her away from Orlando to a quiet place where they would like her to hide out.
I don`t know if she`s going to. She`s been quoted as saying that she loves the media, that she was upset when there were clouds and the helicopters couldn`t fly over. That she`d love to talk to Howard Stern.
So, at a certain point, she may decide, I`m not going to listen to my attorneys and I`m going to go and go out there. And then the paparazzi may grab a shot of her. That first shot is going to be worth a lot of money, but they won`t pay her if they grab her and they see her out in public, and she doesn`t arrange for that shot to be taken.
So she has to have some adviser who is going to advise her through this minefield. And remember, there`s going to be a lot of blowback to any major corporation that makes a big deal with her and hands her a boat load of money. Remember the "If I Did It" fiasco with O.J. Simpson`s book.
So there`s a lot of problems on both sides of this equation. It`s not going to be as easy as anyone thinks.
PINSKY: Right. That is very interesting, that anybody who should attempt to exploit this could get themselves in some big trouble here.
Also, I think what you were referring to, Jane, was something that was told to me by Tracy, Leonard Padilla`s associate who baby-sat, so to speak, Casey back in 2008. And, yes, there, Casey was gleeful about the media attention and seemed to sort of be let down when the spotlight was off her.
So I agree with you. I think she`s likely to bring it on no matter what other people tell her. Don`t you think?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, absolutely. She`s a young woman who her parents couldn`t control. And certainly, she listened to her attorneys because her life was on the line.
Now that her life is not on the line -- and remember, she`s been in solitary confinement for about three years. That means she`s been alone for 23 hours a day.
Her whole life was motivated by the desire to go out partying. That`s what got her into this jam in the first place. So the idea that she`s going to remain just absolutely quiet and under wraps, that may hold for a while, but eventually she`s going to get the itch to go out there, and I think we are going to see her.
Loni and Mark, I want to go back to something we were talking about in the last segment. And Loni, I`ll start with you, about this issue of the defense creating reasonable doubt versus the pursuit of truth and justice.
PINSKY: I think one of the things that troubles many people about this entire case is wondering whether this is an indictment of our system or our system functioning the way it ought to.
And Mark and I -- I`m going to go to you, Mark, here also.
Show me a picture of Mark so I feel I`m talking to him.
Mark, you know I`ve given you a lot of grief about this idea of not being concerned about the truth. I mean, I think personally you`re concerned about it, but the system isn`t concerned about it. And yet, I`ve got a prosecutor here who says she is concerned about it.
So, is that just defense attorneys that don`t worry about the truth?
Either of you.
EIGLARSH: Let`s make this very clear. Personally, we all want the truth to come out. But it is not correct to state that a trial is about bringing out the truth.
I said that to you before the verdict. Now the best example is this case.
There`s an attorney down here in Miami who is moving to have the signs that have been in the courtrooms down here since the 1940s removed. It says, "We who labor here seek only the truth."
That`s not true. Maybe the person wearing the black polyester sitting elevated above us all might be. The prosecutors for the most part do. But the defense function, my function, the function of defense attorneys is to acquit the client.
That`s it. So understand it, get it, and apply it to future cases.
Loni, I have -- hold on, Mark.
Loni, I have 30 seconds. Go.
COOMBS: Well, he`s right. I mean, it`s a constitutional right. Everyone has the right to be --
PINSKY: But what about truth and justice? We`re all upset about that not being what is the ultimate goal of our system.
COOMBS: Well, that`s what the prosecutor is there for. And that`s what the judge is there for. But the defense attorney is there to represent his client zealously, to represent his best interest. And in most cases, that`s letting them out.
They want to get at it. They want their freedom. They want to be let off.
PINSKY: All right. OK.
Well, your comments and questions about Casey are up next.
And later, Jaycee Dugard. This is an inspirational story. She was kidnapped and held captive for 18 years. She has redefined the word "survivor."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED GROUP: Justice for Caylee! Justice for Caylee! Justice for Caylee! Justice for Caylee!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is just one example of the emotion generated by the Casey Anthony case. Let`s here it now directly from you.
Belinda in California, you`re up first. Go ahead.
BELINDA, CALIFORNIA: Hi, Dr. Drew. A quick comment and question.
You`ve been telling us to channel our anger, hurt and frustration into positive things. And I`m doing that personally. But it still doesn`t change the fact that the murder of a sweet, innocent baby girl will walk free on Sunday. And I`m wondering if you can tell us all how we can let go of that and forget.
PINSKY: You know, the one thing I tell people that build resentments -- that`s really what we`re talking about. We want a catharsis, and we`re resentful of the fact that we can`t get a catharsis.
Having resentment is like drinking a poison and expecting it to hurt the other person. You can`t hurt her. You can take that anger and hurt, accept it, and channel it in a more positive way like we`ve been talking about.
Joy in Lakeside, California, what is on your mind?
JOY, LAKESIDE, CALIFORNIA: Hi, Dr. Drew. I have a concern.
I`m worried to know if I`m married to a psychopath. Are all dangerous, or can some just be self-centered liars that like to avoid conflict?
PINSKY: You know, a psychopath can easily become a killer and typically is very exploitative. A sociopath is somebody that isn`t necessarily going to hurt anybody and often just likes to manipulate people for their own advantage.
Also, make note, is this an addict or an alcoholic? Because addicts and alcoholics can look like sociopaths. And if they`re an addict, even though they look like a sociopath, they can be quite well treated. And all that lying and manipulation, obfuscation can go away. Check it out.
The sociopathy does not really respond to treatment very well.
Sheila in California, go ahead.
SHEILA, CALIFORNIA: Hi, Dr. Drew. I just wanted to say that my heart is still broken over this verdict. And quite frankly, I hope the rest of Casey`s life is a living hell.
PINSKY: Well, and there you go. I think a lot of people feel just the way you do.
Let`s go out to Facebook. Mark writes, "Give us an idea of how long treatment would take for someone like Casey Anthony."
Now, mind you, that question presumes I know what`s going on with Casey Anthony. We all spent a lot of time here trying to figure out what is going on with her.
If she is a sociopath or a psychopath, that is not something that, as I alluded to a little bit earlier, not something that responds very well to treatment. It tends to in my world respond, those kinds of features respond, in the setting of addition. But of themselves, those people don`t want to change. They feel like the world is the problem, not them.
Cheri writes, "Do you see Casey admitting to or disclosing any information on the death/murder of her child?"
I do not. I do not. And let`s be kind of realistic here.
Let`s say she writes a book that`s a tell-all. Are you guys going to believe anything in that book? I certainly am not. I won`t believe a word of it, unless it really makes sense to me. And even then, I`m going to know there`s something up with it.
Up next, reports surface that a juror from the Casey Anthony trial has abruptly quit her job and fled Florida, all because she fears for her life.
And later, kidnapped at age 11 and held captive for 18 years. We`ll talk about the remarkable Jaycee Dugard story.
Stay with us.
PINSKY (voice-over): Do you think Casey Anthony killed her daughter, Caylee? Join the club. Two-thirds of those polled by USA Today Gallup agreed. And get this. A juror on the case has gone into hiding fearing for her life.
Coming up, an uplifting counterpoint. Jaycee Dugard reveals the strength, courage, and coping skills she developed during 18 years in captivity at the hands of a monster.
And my fond farewell to Betty Ford.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, "ISSUES": This gentleman is outside the area where the protesters is supposed to be, and he is saying, essentially, that he thinks it`s fair, and he`s not upset with the verdict and he`s not upset with the sentencing hearing today. And these people are very upset saying you belong on the other side.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): Local protests continue over the Casey Anthony verdict. And "Issues" host, Jane Velez-Mitchell, found herself in the thick of it. Jane is with us now from Orlando, also joining us, criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh, and psychologist, Lisa Boesky. Jane, tomorrow marks one week since the verdict, and tempers are still flaring. Why do you think that is?
VELEZ-MITCHELLL: Because people were shocked by the verdict. They expected something else. The drumbeat that they heard in the media was that this was a very strong case for the prosecution. And so, for her not to be convicted on any serious counts was a shock. So, the first reaction was just disbelief. Oh, my gosh. I can`t believe this is happening. And then, it was various stages just like they talk about the stages of grief. This was the stages of anger.
And then, people became indignant. Now, I`ve been walking around Orlando over the weekend. People coming up to me with all sorts of ornate conspiracy theories. Everybody senses they haven`t gotten the real story, the true story. And I think that`s because they haven`t gotten the real story.
We really don`t know exactly what went down, but certainly, it was something more than what the defense was saying, but did the prosecution prove its case? I would have respected the jury`s decision a lot more if they`d spent a little more time on it, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: And then, Jane, we had the defense partying afterwards only inflaming the righteous indignation. It really is the point where there`s a mob that wants a catharsis it feels like, isn`t it?
VELEZ-MITCHELLL: Yes. Yes. And honestly, I don`t think that, for the most part, it was an angry mob, it was a dangerous mob. It was very interesting to see that they had cordoned off a little area for protest, and all those people stayed right in that cordoned area. And these were mostly moms. Moms who related to this story because they had children that would have been the same age.
So, I don`t think those are the people we have to worry about. The people we have to worry about are the cooks somewhere out there who, basically, uses as an excuse to vent some kind of anger that they have at the system or at people, in general. The average person down here is upset but very law-abiding.
PINSKY: Well, thanks, Jane, for that report. Although, I must say I`m not sure I want to confront a mob of angry moms.
VELEZ-MITCHELLL: I agree with you.
PINSKY: But they seem like a well-behaved group of angry moms. Anyway, that`s good. Thanks, Jane.
Now, what do you think? Did Casey Anthony kill her daughter, Caylee? According to the results of a recent USA Today Gallup poll, two out of three, 64 percent of Americans believe Casey definitely or probably killed her daughter. I said this earlier, we all feel that she was involved in some way. Lisa, these poll results probably explain why so many people are angry, would it not?
LISA BOESKY, PSYCHOLOGIST: Of course, and I think most people thought this was a formality, that this trial was just to get justice for Caylee, and we all knew she was not going to be acquitted. And so, when she was, I actually think Jane touched on it. I truly believe people are going through the stages of grief. They were in disbelief, then they were really upset, and now, we`re stuck in anger, and I don`t think we`re going to be able to move on yet because the jury did deliberate so quickly.
You know, Casey is getting out so quickly. And then, when we hear things about book deals and making money and possibly getting pregnant again, it prevents the public from moving on past anger and getting through the other stages of grief where we can finally move on. I think it`s going to be awhile before we get there.
PINSKY: Lisa, you and I know when people get stuck in grief, they get depressed, and that seems to be some of what`s hanging over, folks, using that model of an individual recovering from grief. What do you think people need to do to get through this?
BOESKY: Well, I think the only thing we can do is there`s nothing we can truly do for Caylee, herself, but we can save other children in Caylee`s name. So, I think anything we can do, people are talking about changing the law. People are talking about other ways of helping other children. Think about how many children are abused each year, how many children are killed each year, and many times, by their parents. If we can make a difference in that way, I think then Little Caylee won`t die in vain.
PINSKY: Lisa, good advice. I also was talking to Lonnie Combs (ph) earlier in the show. And I was hoping maybe some sort of political action would come out of this. And she said, look into jury reform. Talk to your legislators, your local judicial system for jury reforms so jurors can talk amongst themselves, and juries can actually, perhaps, ask questions directly of the witnesses. Apparently, that goes on in California.
Now, today, NBC News is reporting that juror number 12 in the Casey Anthony trial remains in hiding because she fears for her life. According to her husband, she quit her job at a grocery store in fear of retaliation from both her co-workers and the public. The woman has, apparently, fled from Florida and told her husband, I`d rather go to jail than sit on a jury like this again.
Mark, you`ve been in Florida. Is the atmosphere so intense that a juror would need to flee the state?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`m saddened when I hear this. Not just for this individual juror, but just think about it. They disagreed with many of us in terms of what the outcome should be, but that`s their right. There`s no evidence that they did anything fraudulent. They did the best that they could. They came up with the decision, and it would have been easier for them just to find her guilty.
I mean, come back, you`re a hero, you found her guilty. They, in spite of feeling that she did something, they just didn`t have the evidence, and the law, in their opinion, required them to acquit her. Now, they have to run for their lives? Listen, let`s talk about the ripple effect for future cases. You ever want jurors to serve, if you want a defendant to ever get a fair trial and reasonable doubt not be a dirty word in court, we need to change our attitudes.
PINSKY: Wow. Interesting, Mark. Now, I`ve got something from the fame prosecutor, Marcia Clark. She posted a blog for U.S. News. The title is intriguing. It`s called "Casey Jury Brainwash." This is back to the jury topic. Now, while many of us struggle to try to understand how these 12 jurors came up with the `not guilty` verdict, and as you say, Mark, it`s by doing due diligence and making the hard decision.
Marcia presented a thought provoking explanation. Here is some of what she wrote, quote, "The longer the jury is in contact with the defendant, the less sinister he or she appears. Now add that to the psychology of a group dynamic, it became abundantly clear the Anthony jury were cheerleaders for the defense."
Now, Marcia`s blog got me thinking about something the lead prosecutor, Jeff Ashton, told me right after Casey was found not guilty of murder. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: One of the things that you have said rather, more strongly than I realize watching in the courtroom, was that the duct tape was really a central feature of your case. That was a central feature you were emphasizing to the jury, and yet, they just kind of blew it off.
JEFF ASHTON, PROSECUTOR: I suppose you could say that, but it just never really made sense to me that you would need three pieces of duct tape.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So Lisa and Mark, I kind of thought that the prosecutors got into kind of a brainwashing mentality amongst themselves because they convinced themselves that evidence was so strong. What do you say to Marcia`s theory?
EIGLARSH: Drew, I read her entire --
BOESKY: Go ahead.
BOESKY: You want me to go? From a psychological point of view, it`s called confirmation bias. We know that this happens. It`s part of human thinking that when you start to believe something, everything else that comes in, you only look at the things that back up what you thought from the beginning and you kind of blow off the things that don`t really fit with what you think.
And I think the prosecutors really think that she`s guilty. I think the defense really thinks she`s innocent. And I think the jury really bought into Jose Baez`s defense at his opening statement, and everything they heard afterwards, they heard to that confirmation bias, and it just kept ringing true for them, and the prosecution --
EIGLARSH: And from a legal perspective, if you go back and you take away the emotion for just one moment. It`s hard because from day one, we all were consumed with emotion, but if you look at this case objectively, like these jurors arguably did because they weren`t following the case like we were all the way through, they decided this case individually and collectively fairly soon, and their opinions never change.
It shows us, I think, that this case had inherent defects. Not that she wasn`t guilty, but that they had difficulty proving it. And the same 12 people with the same mindset would probably come up with the same result. And I take exception with Jane Velez, I love her dearly, but what she`s been saying and others have been saying. They didn`t rush to any judgment.
If they double the time deliberating, it still wouldn`t change anything. They never had an abiding conviction of guilt, one that did not waiver or (INAUDIBLE), unless, they stayed with not guilty. That was justice. Not necessarily the truth, but that was justice according to them.
PINSKY: Thank you, Mark. Thank you, Lisa. And of course, thank you, Jane.
Coming up, an incredible story of Jaycee Dugard. The 31-year-old, she was held against her will for two decades nearly and gave birth to her captor`s children. This is a story you got to see. Stay with us.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know if they`re watching the same thing we were. It`s just shocking.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t believe it. I don`t even know why I`m this emotional. I have no attachment to them at all. I just can`t believe it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m in total shock. I mean, everything that`s happened is basically like you almost have to film and watch somebody commit a crime and have it on video for something to happen to them. It`s just disturbing.
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UNDERSHERIFF FRED KOLLAR, EL DORADO COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPT.: Jaycee Dugard was found alive in Antioch. Excuse me. She was found alive in Antioch. Just to remind you just a little bit, she was kidnapped in June of 1991. She was taken off the street in front of her house. As you all know, there was nothing then nor is there anything now to indicate that this was anything other than a stranger abduction of an 11-year-old.
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PINSKY: It was almost two years ago that the world watched in amazement as a grown up Jaycee Dugard was found. She`d been missing for 18 years. She was 11 when she was kidnapped on her way to school in 1991. Jaycee was held captive by Phillip Garrido and his wife, Nancy, in a backyard compound, living in virtual solitary confinement. She was raped repeatedly by Garrido who is a known sex offender and convicted rapist.
Listen as Jaycee described her first week in the hellish prison that will become her home. She was locked in a soundproof room and handcuffed. Diane Sawyer conducted that interview but first aired on ABC.
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JAYCEE DUGARD, KIDNAPPING SURVIVOR: They were the fuzzy kind so they wouldn`t hurt as bad.
DIANNE SAWYER, ABC ANCHOR: Behind your back?
DUGARD: Yes. There was a pallet on the floor. Then, he said he`d be back later. And he shut the studio -- or the soundproof door, and then, the other door with the lock.
SAWYER: You heard that?
DUGARD: Yes. I can still hear it. Consciously or when I`m awake. Some sounds and smells just don`t leave you.
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PINSKY: But I still think you can see just by watching this tape, this is a remarkably resilient young woman. Joining us are Katie Callaway Hall who is, herself, victimized by Garrido before Jaycee was kidnapped and psychologist, Lisa Boesky. Katie, can you identify what Jaycee was going through and what she described here?
KATIE CALLAWAY HALL, HELD CAPTIVE BY PHILLIP GARRIDO: Yes, I can, Dr. Drew, especially the sounds and the smells. And, last night, when I was watching Diane Sawyer`s interview, some of the film that they were showing really took me right back to my episode with Garrido because just watching him walk around in that video where the patrol officer was inspecting his house and just watching how he interacted with the man and listening to his voice and then watching him and listening to him when he was singing and watching his facial expressions, it just -- it brought back some memories.
PINSKY: Now, one of the things that can happen when you`re re-exposed to those sort of images, you get a post-traumatic stress reaction. Did you have anything like that?
HALL: No. I don`t think so. I am seeing a therapist right now myself because of some of that that I have been experiencing with this whole Jaycee Dugard event coming into the public eye. You know, I did have to go back into therapy. But, last night, I don`t know if it would be post-traumatic stress syndrome. It just grabbed me in the gut, so to speak.
PINSKY: Just revivification, we call that. Jaycee said she was most scared of the unknown, and when Garrido would go on one of his drug binges, take a look at what she told ABC`s Dianne Sawyer.
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DUGARD: He would dress me up for hours because he was taking methamphetamines and speed. He called it speed. He would get focused on one thing. For long periods of time. And then, it usually went to him with his little books of cutouts that he would cut out for hours and paste on little girls from magazines and porno magazines. I mean, it didn`t make sense to me at all, but that`s what he did.
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PINSKY: And let`s be clear. This is more than just drug addiction. Drugs just amplified this horrible behavior. Katie, my understanding is he stalked you again when he got let out. Isn`t that accurate?
HALL: Yes, he did. He approached me at my place of employment at a casino. And I was a roulette dealer. And he came up to me and I acted like I didn`t know him and I didn`t recognize him, but I did. I absolutely did. In fact, he looked just like how he looked in that video of him singing last night. Very creepy.
PINSKY: Lisa, now, you and I know that when somebody has been through this kind of chronic severe, just shattering trauma, a piece of you kind of dies. It takes something with you. And we see that being eluded to an interview with Diane Sawyer that he`d taken something away from her. Talk to people about that because I think the interview missed that a little bit. The young lady in that interview seemed so resilient and so together, but there`s a deep, deep wound there that that guy has left behind that will always be there.
BOESKY: Yes. And I think her mom tapped into that. She really lost a part of who she was, who she could be. That inner part -- I mean, we kind of call it our souls on a religious sense, but this inner part of who we are, he kind of -- he took that away from her. And every time and everyday he was there, every time he raped her, every time he didn`t let her use her name, he was chipping away at her soul, chipping away at her soul.
So, when she emerges now, we look at her, and she is truly, literally one of the most resilient people I`ve ever seen. And she`s doing phenomenal. But deep down, there has to be a wound that is so deep that she can never get back that he stole from her. And I think she said in the interview which I thought was so profound, which was she gets angry, but she tries not to let the anger overtake her because she doesn`t want him to have that, because he`s taken so much from her already.
And I think that a lot of survivors experience that. That they`re so angry at the perpetrator, but they`ve already stolen so much from the victim that they want -- the survivor wants to not let that go as well. And I think she`s a perfect example of hope and resiliency, but I really think deep, deep down and her mom sees this, too, she has lost a huge part of who she is.
PINSKY: That`s right. It leaves behind what we call trauma associated dead spots. Patients tell me that a part of them doesn`t make it out of that horrible, hellacious environment. However, this young lady tells us something very important. The power of gratitude. Think about that, folks. Be grateful every day. It has a very healing power. Thank you Lisa. Thank you, Katie.
Now, one of Casey Anthony`s former friends, Clint House, appeared on our show Friday. During his remarks, a graphic at the bottom of the screen read that he was satisfied with the verdict in the Casey Anthony case, and that he respects the verdict. Now, for the record, House told me he said he was pretty shocked about it, but that we have to respect the jury`s decision. We regret that error.
Ahead, more about the incredible Jaycee Dugard, and later, we say goodbye to Betty Ford.
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DUGARD: I can`t imagine being beaten to death, you know? But when you can`t imagine being kidnapped and raped, you know? So, you just do what you have to do to survive.
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PINSKY: And she did, indeed, survive. That was Jaycee Dugard talking to ABC News anchor, Diane Sawyer, about her horrific experience as a captive sex slave for 18 years, repeatedly raped by Phillip Garrido. Jaycee actually became pregnant and gave birth twice alone without medical care in Garrido`s backyard while being held against her will. Listen as Diane Sawyer asked her why she didn`t try to escape.
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SAWYER: To just think about taking those two girls and running.
DUGARD: I`m sure I did, but it wasn`t something I felt I could do.
DUGARD: The situation felt like it wasn`t an option. I don`t know how else to explain it. There was no leaving.
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PINSKY: Katie Callaway Hall was also victimized by Garrido before Jaycee was kidnapped. Katie, why would Jaycee not escape if she had the chance?
HALL: Well, from what I understand her saying is that, you know, he had such power over her, such mind control over her. You know, she was such a young girl when he took her, and he started working on her. And, what a difference from, you know, me, a 25-year-old woman. And I can probably honestly say that even though he threatened to take me home because his wife would like me, which I didn`t know what it meant then, but now I see.
I doubt that he could have kept me because I`m a mother and I had a child at home. And it would have been a very different situation. I might have ended up dead, but I wouldn`t have stayed.
PINSKY: But Katie, I think that`s an interesting point. I think it probably is the children that really locked her in. I mean, she didn`t see an option.
HALL: That could be.
PINSKY: She didn`t know where she could go, and she was all about protecting those kids. And I`m sure, he terrorized her. It`s sort of what we call that Stockholm Syndrome, is it not? Yes. It`s that kind of thing.
Thank you very much to Katie for sharing this story with us. It`s stunning to hear these stories. And it`s a nice counterpoint to the anger and hostility we`re all feeling about the Casey Anthony case. This is something far more inspirational.
Now, before I go, I`d like to acknowledge, thank, and honor an individual who may have done more than any other to call attention to and combat addiction. Of course, I`m talking about former first lady, Betty Ford. She died on Friday. Now, you got to put yourself in that historical context where she publicly acknowledged, as a first lady, addiction to alcohol and prescription drugs at a time when people just didn`t do that.
They hid this, especially not women and especially not first ladies. She established the Betty Ford Center which made her proper name sort of a noun. Probably, more people know more about the place than the person. She was a crusader, she cut through prejudice, and she gave voice to millions who then could go on to lead flourishing lives. She was a freedom fighter, but more for women and addicts than any other. Thank you, Betty Ford, for leaving this world a better place.
And thank you all for watching. I will see you next time.