CNN CNN


 

Return to Transcripts main page

DR. DREW

Casey Anthony Verdict Frenzy; Where Will Casey go After Jail?

Aired July 12, 2011 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.

Casey Anthony investigators playing defense tonight, why they did what they did in their own words.

Five days and counting until Casey goes free. I`m afraid for her, and I`ll tell you why she may have to go into hiding.

And the mother/daughter dynamic. I will take you inside Cindy and Casey`s troubled relationship.

Plus, we`ve got breaking news about Cindy.

Let`s try to figure this out.

All right. Now, when will the verdict frenzy end? Apparently, not going to be anytime soon.

Listen to this.

A Florida man got into an argument about Casey Anthony with a stranger and struck her in the face. Then he jumped into a lagoon to get away. It`s like some kind of a sitcom. And then this guy, mind you, had agreed with the jury`s decision, by the way.

Also, a man in Pennsylvania named Casey Anthony is getting all kinds of abuse directed his way just because he and Casey share the same name. Now, he said that the situation, initially comical, went all the way to scar scary.

And listen to this. A woman who has the same name as a juror on the Casey case, she says she and her mother have been targeted by phone and by many haters.

This isn`t making sense, right? People are taking aim at folks. They`re so frustrated and so angry, they`re taking aim at people that have nothing to do with the case but just remind them of the case.

Two things occur to me. One is, I know we`ve been through some tough times. I know there`s a lot of frustration built up in this country. But surely there`s a better way to express it than this, number one.

And number two, I have this horrible feeling that this frenzy has a blood lust. Please, come on. Are we not going to be happy until there`s blood? Is that what we all want to be part of? Stop it. OK.

I`ve got some breaking news tonight. Cindy Anthony is not going to be prosecuted for jury (sic). Excuse me for perjury. I beg your pardon. She is not going to be prosecuted for perjury. The state has decided not to file charges against Casey`s mom.

Cindy testified during the trial that she conducted a search for the word "chloroform" on the family computer. Earlier, she had told the police that she had not.

Now, as well, it is countdown to Casey Anthony`s release. Watch this and we`ll talk.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, CHARGED WITH MURDERING HER DAUGHTER: Because you know certain things about your child. You know that she`s alive.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything that you`ve told me is a lie.

CINDY ANTHONY: I have no clue where she is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure you do.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The people who investigated Casey Anthony are going to hold a news conference today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s still amazing to me how she reacted and how she didn`t react in the interview. Ultimately, it`s up to a jury to decide. We expect that and we honor that.

NANCY GRACE, HOST, "NANCY GRACE": The jury foreman, the jury that acquitted "Tot Mom" and let her walk free, says he is "sick and disgusted" at the verdict.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was no evidence to back that, so I could not really take that into consideration.

MIKE GALANOS, ANCHOR, "NEWS NOW": It`s going to be interesting when she`s finally let out this Sunday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Seven investigators involved in the Casey Anthony case talked to the press today about how there were in the long run -- in the long run up to the trial, how -- what that work was, how they did it, and here`s what they had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF JERRY DEMINGS, ORANGE COUNTY, FLORIDA: If she maintains her household here in our jurisdiction, if we become aware of any credible threats to her, she`s like every other resident or citizen here. We have an obligation to protect and provide for her safety and security.

If she moves on to some other location, then that becomes somebody else`s responsibility at that point. So we just don`t know. But we will not be providing any elaborate security or protection for Casey once she leaves.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Also tonight, the jury foreman spoke on Fox News last night about his suspicion of George Anthony and how he and the other jurors could not trust George`s testimony. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I really thought that George had very selective memory in the whole regard. I thought that George, at times, could remember something to be as vivid as it just happened the day before. But then you go and he is questioned on a gas can.

I know him and the defense went back and forth as to what picture he was shown, when he was really only shown one. And he went back and forth on that. He had very selective memory for me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: I`m not sure what the jury saw. Did they get a completely different view than the rest of us? That`s what we keep wondering.

Joining me, Mike Galanos, anchor, HLN "News Now," and criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh. Also here with me in the studio is attorney and best-selling author of "Think," Lisa Bloom.

First I want to go out to Mike.

What are your thoughts about the investigators` news conference?

GALANOS: You know, I think, Drew, I saw it as closure. It was a reunion.

I don`t think I`ve seen anything like it, where people that we got to know through this trial came together. I would have loved to have heard the conversations off camera as they kind of compared notes.

But I thought they stood strong. I mean, they admitted -- I know Sandra Osborne, who dealt with the computer searches, admitted there were some errors in reading some of those searches. But I think they just stood up and said we did what we did, the jury made their decision, and that`s that.

And I think they`re ready to move forward. So, again, I see this as kind of a closure -- Drew.

PINSKY: You know, it`s funny, Mike. Yuri Melich, to me, when I read his depositions and I see him speak, he seems like a sane, straightforward, smart guy. Am I reading him right?

GALANOS: Yes, from what I see. I mean, no nonsense guy. The way he was so meticulous in answering the questions during the trial, and he`d address the jury and he would come back.

But there was a side of him that we remember where he got onto a blog using the moniker "Dick Tracy Orlando." So, as you look at that, he`s going to go forward. His life is changing like everybody else, and I think he`s somewhat of a star coming out of this -- Drew.

PINSKY: Wait, Mike. Tell me about that. I didn`t know about that. What happened?

GALANOS: Yes. Well, this was a while back.

And as things were coming down, and people knew he was the lead investigator, they even had a blog that -- it was "WWYMD?" "What Would Yuri Melich Do?" And he was injured. I believe he had a leg injury, so he got on this blog and just kind of said -- thanked everybody.

But he took some heat from that from the defense, because they thought, what`s the lead investigator doing on a blog? So that`s how social media and everything really takes a twist in such a high-profile case like this.

PINSKY: It`s very interesting.

Now, Melich was troubled by Casey`s lies. And he was -- it was one of the most interesting parts of this case for me, is watching his interrogation. I could just almost see him in my mind`s eye shaking his head in disbelief

He was also disturbed by something else. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DET. YURI MELICH, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: It`s still amazing to me how she reacted or how she didn`t react inside the interview. There`s no question about it.

You all have heard the interview. And there are times where I could tell for myself was frustrated with the point that she just wasn`t being honest or completely honest with us. But let`s just suffice it to say that she never said it was an accident.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Yes. The only thing I have ever known for sure about Casey Anthony is that she is a liar, she lies about her lying. She obfuscates, she distorts. It`s just stunning to watch it.

Mark, you`re a criminal defense attorney. Do your clients typically lie like that? Is that something you`ve seen before?

MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. All of my clients are innocent and they always tell the truth, Drew.

(LAUGHTER)

PINSKY: That`s what I figured you`d say. And they have provable cases that -- right? What is it you always say? Not guilty, but not provable.

EIGLARSH: Or else I won`t take the case. And I haven`t had a case in, like, five years.

Actually, the reality is, yes, they lie like all defendants do. And it is an honor and a privilege to be able to defend them because, again, the truth is whether the prosecutors can prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt.

That`s our system. And the good news is, that same burden of proof protects all of us, whether if we got a speeding ticket that we didn`t serve, or God forbid a family member gets accused of something. Again, the prosecutors will have to have sufficient proof to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt or that person will walk. And that`s what we need.

PINSKY: But Mark, I think what`s got everyone upset is the rights of the victims perhaps aren`t as cherished, as intense, as well thought out as the rights of the criminal.

LISA BLOOM, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Mark, I love how you go from lying clients -- and look, we`ve got lying clients on all sides of all cases, all right -- to waving the flag and the Constitution, and the prosecution has to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt. I mean, it`s never a good thing when somebody goes into court and lies.

PINSKY: One last thing. Do you think the no charge for perjury for Cindy is the right thing?

BLOOM: It`s very hard to prove perjury. It`s not just a lie, any lie in court. It has to be a big lie about a material fact, essentially. You know, maybe she`s telling the truth. We don`t know.

PINSKY: That`s right.

BLOOM: I mean, probably not provable as a lie.

PINSKY: I`ll tell you what, I did a "chlorophyll" Google search. And you know what the first thing that pops up first? Chloroform.

BLOOM: No kidding?

PINSKY: It prompts you to go to chloroform.

BLOOM: But they say she was at work that day. Maybe she snuck out from work and she didn`t change her time records at work. I mean, who knows?

PINSKY: There you go.

So, next, where will Casey go when she`s set free on Sunday? Is she still in jail or has she already been moved somewhere else? And will Casey have to create an entirely new identity?

Then, later, what was going on between mom and daughter, Casey and Cindy? The complicated relationship between the Anthony women.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SARAH CARDEN, DR. DREW PRODUCER: This is where Casey Anthony said she was taking her daughter Caylee every night. She said her babysitter, Zenaida Gonzalez, lived in these apartments, were at the Sawgrass Apartment. The police came here, the apartment was abandoned.

We`re at the bar in downtown Orlando, where Casey Anthony actually came and partied every single night while she told her parents that she was working at Universal Studios. We don`t know where Caylee was when Casey was out at night with her boyfriend and friends, but we do know this is the bar where Casey was photographed in that blue dress, smiling, laughing, having the time of her life while her daughter was missing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: That on-camera talent and videographer is our crack producer Sarah Carden, who is as obsessed with this story as you guys are.

So, thank you, Sarah, for filing that report.

Tonight, a woman named Zenaida Gonzalez is now suing Casey, saying Casey`s lies about the imaginary "Zanny the nanny" at the Sawgrass apartments -- Zenaida Gonzalez is the real person, and those lies have actually ruined her life. People actually thought that Zenaida Gonzalez the person had kidnapped Caylee.

Now, Casey gets out of jail on Sunday. So where is she going to go?

Some are saying she might go to Puerto Rico with Jose Baez. There`s another rumor that she might change her appearance, dye her hair blonde, use a fake name.

Could she completely reinvent herself?

I`m back with attorneys Mark Eiglarsh, as well as best-selling author Lisa Bloom. And joining me now in the studio is trial consultant for the defense team in the Casey Anthony case, Richard Gabriel.

Richard, I`m going to start with you. Do you think Casey is going to need protection?

RICHARD GABRIEL, JURY CONSULTANT TO JOSE BAEZ: Well, there`s obviously a lot of threats out there about it. And we`re obviously very concerned about her safety.

And so my hope is that people will respect this jury`s opinion and that they will just calm down. I know it`s upsetting. I know that these people are very emotionally wrought about this verdict. But the fact is that the justice system did work the way it was supposed to work in this case, although people may disagree. And my hope is that they don`t take it out on Casey, they don`t take it out on any of the jurors.

PINSKY: Now, one of the things -- I mention this when I talk to you guys, is that the attorneys, Lisa, Mark, you guys see criminals. And Richard, you see juries, plenty of juries. So I have no experience seeing somebody spin out of a high-profile jury case and recognizing a crowd frenzy. Serving on jury duty could actually put you in harm`s way.

Have you ever seen anything like that before?

GABRIEL: Well, in a lot of high-profile cases, they actually -- we do find that jurors are completely unprepared for this phenomena, which is essentially this crowd sort of frenzy. And especially -- they tried hard. I mean, these jurors worked six days a week for six to eight weeks.

PINSKY: And they did their job, they did their job diligently. Right? And now their lives are in danger.

Is that really OK?

GABRIEL: No, it`s not.

PINSKY: Isn`t there something wrong here?

GABRIEL: Well, it`s wrong. And I think, unfortunately, people don`t understand that they really did see a different case than a lot of us at home.

PINSKY: Well, talk to us about that. Help people understand that so maybe that will pull the frenzy down a little bit.

And Lisa, you certainly can address this, too, if you want.

What did they see differently?

GABRIEL: I mean, what happened is, we at home, we can speculate. We can have an emotional reaction. We hear a lot of evidence that doesn`t even come into the courtroom that a judge has ruled inadmissible. And we talk to other people about it.

The judge -- the jury on the Casey Anthony case --

PINSKY: They can`t talk amongst themselves.

GABRIEL: -- they can`t talk amongst themselves. They can`t speculate. They can`t use -- are not supposed to use emotion to decide the case.

BLOOM: Here`s the difference, too. On television we have graphics and people pounding their fists. In the courtroom, there`s a real air of solemnity that you don`t see on television.

I watched trials for eight years on "Court TV." And many times we were surprised by the outcome.

When a juror gets into the courtroom, there`s the judge and the robes and the intonation about the instructions. Jurors take their jobs very, very seriously.

PINSKY: There`s a gravitas.

BLOOM: That`s right, there`s a gravitas that we don`t necessarily have on these shows. Not that there`s anything wrong with what we`re doing. We have the First Amendment right to do it, to comment on it, to call it as we see it. But it`s a very different flavor in the courtroom.

PINSKY: Well, Mark, let me go out to you. The thing that`s striking me now which I`m hearing about for the first time is this foreman of the jury feeling that George had something questionable about him. They`re not supposed to react with their emotions. That`s certainly an emotional sort of gut take on George.

What do you think they saw there?

EIGLARSH: Well, I disagree with you. I think that they`re allowed to use their emotions. They`re allowed to use whatever they want in evaluating whether a witness is credible and/or believable.

Once he and several others who have spoken publicly found that he wasn`t credible, well, then the state had a real problem, because the defense made him out to be the centerpiece of the defense. And that`s where -- that, minus all the other problems of their case, the cause of death, et cetera, really created problems for the state.

PINSKY: And Richard, with the jury, they seemed to not buy the prosecution`s theory about the tape. Did the prosecution just miss something about that jury? Did they just assume that the jury was keeping up with them? Was that the prosecution brainwashing themselves about their case?

GABRIEL: Well, I don`t think they brainwashed themselves about the case. I think they truly believed in their own evidence.

The fact is that jurors have an individual way of doing this. That`s why we do research. That`s why we did a focus group before this case, to find really whether jurors could connect the pieces here.

And I think even Jeff Ashton said, boy, that one photograph of the tape really said it all to him. The fact is, the tape was adhered to the hair, and there was some, I think, questions that the jurors had about really how it got there.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: But why didn`t they pick that up? I mean, I look at that picture, Lisa, and I think, huh? How`d that tape get there?

EIGLARSH: Drew --

PINSKY: Mark has a point.

Mark, go ahead.

EIGLARSH: Yes. What happened to me when I was serving as a prosecutor and as a defense lawyer is, the minute you`re on a case, to some extent you lose some objectivity. You see the evidence the way you want it. And it`s not necessarily how the jurors are going to see it. So I think that might have happened too.

It might have been very innocent. Jeff Ashton, the other prosecutors, believing so strongly in her guilt, so every piece of evidence that came across their desk they saw a certain way, they thought it resonated a certainly way with the jury. And maybe it didn`t.

PINSKY: And Lisa, I`ll ask you this question -- did they also underestimate the defense, the prosecution?

BLOOM: I think everyone underestimated the defense.

EIGLARSH: Yes.

BLOOM: All of us who are commentators, I will say that I underestimated the defense.

(CROSSTALK)

BLOOM: And I think we all have to -- the prosecutors, they got a unanimous jury verdict for the defense in 11 hours without a request for a single piece of evidence. This is a defense that did a very good job, and we have to all concede that.

PINSKY: Richard, you agree? You`re silent there.

(LAUGHTER)

BLOOM: A member of the defense team right here who had a part in that.

GABRIEL: Well, of course I`d have to agree. I mean, the fact is that we were very confident in the case. We took a look at this, we tested it.

PINSKY: Did they overreach, the prosecution?

GABRIEL: I think by charging this as a death penalty case, the jurors attached more solemnity and wanted the evidence to e stronger.

PINSKY: More -- the reasonable doubt needed to be --

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: I think that`s right.

Thank you, guys -- Mark, Richard, Lisa.

And next, your questions and comments about Casey.

And later, we`re going to dissect the Cindy/Casey dynamic. What is going on between mother and daughter?

You don`t want to miss this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I founded Caylee`s Law because if anything good can come from this, it will be attention to this sort of thing. What upsets me -- one of the things that upsets me most about this case is this is not the only child that has fallen victim.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Well said. So many people are signing the petition for Caylee`s Law, a law that would make it a felony for parents or guardians not to notify law enforcement about a missing child. Scary that we have to have a law like that in place, but clearly we do.

And we`re hearing more of your concerns tonight as well, so let us get right to the phones.

This is now Linda in Chicago.

You`re up first. Go ahead.

LYNDA, CHICAGO: Hi, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Lynda.

LYNDA: As you`ve said in the past, Casey has created a vortex around her. Everything in her orbit is sucked in, including all reasonable (ph) objects. Isn`t that how a person with a personality disorder works, where they have an ingenious way of hiding inside their mountain of chaos while everyone else is trying to figure out the truth?

PINSKY: Lynda, boy, you said a mouthful. I`ve intentionally used that word "vortex" as sort of a code for exactly what you`re describing.

A lot of people don`t really understand what personality disorders are, but let`s just say it`s a pattern that usually gets established in adolescence and becomes a lifelong pattern of chaos and disturbed relationships and lying and all the kinds of things we`re seeing in Casey`s case. And indeed, particularly when they use drug and alcohol, there tends to be a vortex that sucks people in. And that`s exactly what I think we`re all sucked into here in Casey`s case.

Let`s go to Facebook. Nancy asks, "Do you think Casey has the ability to become a responsible parent if she ever has another child?"

That`s another thing I`m choking on tonight. Look, I certainly can`t say that I think she is going to be a good or responsible parent, but there have been cases out there of criminals who have done so after years and years.

I don`t want to speculate. Again, it makes me choke on the question, even.

Back to the phones.

Mark in New Jersey, go ahead.

MARK, NEW JERSEY: Hi, Dr. Drew.

Unfortunately, ever since the Casey Anthony verdict, I have been so depressed. I can`t eat or sleep right. And I was wondering if you can give me some advice on how to handle this.

PINSKY: You know, it`s funny. I think we`re seeing that generally, that anger and resentment is building into depression. It`s almost the stages of grief that people are going through.

And if you really have depression, obviously talk to your doctor about it. The crowd psychology needs a catharsis in order to avoid that depression. And that`s what people are searching for.

Let`s not get caught up into that primitive crowd think, and let`s take that energy and do it -- take it in a positive way and, A, spend time with the people you love -- that helps in healing these kinds of feelings - - and be of service. Simple, selfless acts of service can go a long way to healing this.

And by the way, if you want to, let there be some political action coming out of this. How about some jury reform, things like that?

Finally, Jessica writes, "Do you think people sometimes confuse family dysfunction with tough love? George and Cindy did everything they could to make the family function."

I have very limited time. That`s a big question.

I think they were in denial. I think they kept a very sort of glossy blush over their family to prevent people from seeing that there was a sick girl inside. And yes, people are very confused about -- very confused about what tough love actually is.

Tough love is not being aggressive and denying people. It`s being present with them but firm.

We`re going inside Cindy and Casey`s twisted relationship. I`m going to tell you what I see going on there. You will want to hear this.

Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TRACY MCLAUGHLIN, LIVED WITH ANTHONYS IN 2008: As a mother-daughter relationship, it can be, you know, 10 minutes of hate and three hours of love. It went back and forth.

VOICE OF CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I don`t know what your involvement is, sweetheart. You`re not telling me where she`s at.

VOICE OF CASEY ANTHONY, ACCUSED OF KILLING HER DAUGHTER: Because I don`t (EXPLETIVE DELETED) know where she`s at. Are you kidding me?

JESSE GRUND, CASEY`S EX-FIANCE: Cindy then blew up on her and said, how could you ever want to be with somebody who`s a high school drop out. She`s got no future.

CINDY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE).

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom! Can someone let me -- come on.

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, hold on. Settle down.

CASEY ANTHONY: Nobody`s letting me speak. Mom, I don`t have anything. I`m sorry.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Tonight, jealousy, lies, and perhaps, a mother`s unconditional love. We`re going inside Cindy Anthony and Casey`s tumultuous relationship. I`m going to tell you what I see going on here. Did deep rooted resentment and jealousy over Caylee, perhaps, calling Cindy mommy, did that resentment spark Casey and her cover-up? Listen to this from Casey`s ex-fiance.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRUND: I believe it goes all the way back to when Caylee was born. When Caylee was born, Casey wasn`t the first one to get the whole Caylee. It was Cindy. And Casey`s even voiced to me in the past that Cindy has actually called herself mommy to Caylee in front of Casey before.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Now, tonight with just five days until Casey is a free woman, we`re dissecting the Anthony`s family dynamic.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Caylee Anthony died on June 16th, 2008, when she drowned in her family`s swimming pool. As soon as Casey came around this corner and went back, she saw George Anthony holding Caylee in his arms. She immediately grabbed Caylee and began to cry, and cry, and cry. And shortly thereafter, George began to yell at her. Look what you`ve done! Your mother will never forgive you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Why is Casey refusing jailhouse visits from her mom? Is she going to go home? Joining me to discuss all this are Tracy McLaughlin and Rob Dick who both spent time with Cindy and Casey in the Anthony household. Also with us is our star attorney, Lisa Bloom. Lisa is also the author of the best-selling book, "Think," and her mom, famed attorney, Gloria Allred, has joined us. She has a brand-new show on NBC called "We, The People, with Gloria Allred." It is going to air this fall.

First to Tracy, what did you see in that relationship when you`re in the house?

MCLAUGHLIN: I think there was a lot of love between Casey and --

PINSKY: Was it enmeshment? Two overlapping? Were Cindy like accepted everything Casey said and protected Casey?

MCLAUGHLIN: She did pretty much accept everything she said because she wanted her to say more, and Casey would get mad, and she complained about -- she did complain about Cindy and she did tell me the story Jesse just told about Cindy holding her first when she was born. But when they were together, they talked a lot. They laughed a lot. It was happy. It wasn`t fake. They weren`t glaring at each other.

PINSKY: And yet, in those jailhouse tapes, we see Cindy kind of walking on egg shells, because every time you`d sort of tap on Casey, she explodes.

MCLAUGHLIN: You can`t push Casey.

PINSKY: She shuts you down.

MCLAUGHLIN: Yes. She`ll shut you down or she`ll make up another story.

PINSKY: Now, during the month Caylee was missing, Casey was lying to her mom the whole time about where the little girl was, but Cindy thought Casey was just -- this I find very bizarre. Cindy actually thought Casey was punishing her by not letting her talk to Caylee. Imagine that, how using a two-year-old child as punishment for the grandmother.

Cindy posted this on her MySpace page, quote, "Jealousy has taken her away. Jealousy from the one person that should be thankful for all of the love and support given to her," which is usually the case. Gloria, I`m going to you. I mean, you know, I deal with lots of bad parents. And when they`ve got a supportive grandparent there, they`re sort of grateful and handed off. Can you imagine a child, let`s say, Lisa was using your grandchildren as a pawn?

GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIMS` RIGHT ATTORNEY: Don`t you dare.

LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY & AUTHOR: Never, mommy.

PINSKY: But it`s sort of unthinkable, isn`t it?

ALLRED: Well, it`s unthinkable for me because I`m very fortunate to have a beautiful, wonderful, caring daughter and terrific grandchildren. And she`s always allowed me to be an important part of their lives.

PINSKY: I`m going to ask you --

(CROSSTALK)

ALLRED: And I used to babysit for them, too, when they were little.

PINSKY: But let`s both of you dig deep a little bit. Can you imagine getting so frustrated with one another, so just mothers and daughters, in general, would there ever be a place in your -- where you could get to that the child will become a pawn?

BLOOM: No, because that`s a terrible thing to do with child.

PINSKY: Could that ever happen? You would never do that?

BLOOM: No, absolutely not. It`s a terrible thing. And let me say, the clips that you showed of Casey Anthony dropping the F bomb talking to her mom in that disrespectful way. I mean, what a little twit. Nobody should talk to their mother that way. I`m sorry.

PINSKY: Except you to Gloria.

BLOOM: Absolutely not. I would never talk to my mom that way. You know, our motto, I think, is you can disagree without being disagreeable. You can say your piece, but you have to show respect. You show respect for the mother who raised you, who brought you here. And in Casey Anthony`s case, for the mother who`s taking care of her little baby while she`s out partying. I mean, there`s no excuse that.

ALLRED: But having said that, Dr. Drew, I would say that the mother/daughter relationship is the most complicated relationship that there is.

PINSKY: Well, you know what, people that theorize about this thing say it`s not only the most complicated but the most intense.

ALLRED: Well, the most intense, and the most challenging, and also the most fulfilling. If you, you know, if you work at it and you understand it. I don`t think that we ever learn about this in school. We have to find out for ourselves how to make it work, but it is exciting. It`s painful. It`s loving. It`s all of those things. And I think we see that in Casey and Cindy`s relationship, as well. It becomes even more complicated when there are grandchildren.

PINSKY: And is that part of why we`re so intrigued by this case? That it is part of the one piece of the story.

BLOOM: I think so. Yes.

PINSKY: You have daughters also?

BLOOM: I have a daughter and a son.

PINSKY: And Tracy, you have a daughter, too?

MCLAUGHLIN: I have two sons.

PINSKY: So, you have sons.

BLOOM: My mom`s right, because, look, we`re the same gender, we`re the same DNA. And my mom and I were both, you know, can be very intense, passionate people.

PINSKY: Slow down.

(LAUGHTER)

BLOOM: And I think in the case of Cindy and Casey, it`s the same thing. A lot of mothers and daughters have problems, but you can make it work. My mom and I can have a healthy, wonderful relationship being as intense and driven and as hardworking as we are than anybody can. But it`s got to start with respect. And that`s what Casey likes for her mother.

PINSKY: Now, Cindy got on the stand, and she told the jury that she, not Casey, had searched for the term chloroform on the family computer. Now, I remind people, go ahead and Google chlorophyll, and you`ll see how fast chloroform comes up. It pushes in the whole list of things about how to make chloroform. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: And I started looking up chloroform -- I mean chlorophyll, and then, that prompted me to look up chloroform.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were you home on March 17th of 2008 between 1:43 and 1:55 p.m.?

CINDY ANTHONY: If those computer entries were made, then I made them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: So, Gloria, to you again. Is this the unconditional love of a mother falling on her sword for her daughter? And, if you were in a position like that, would you do that for Lisa?

ALLRED: Well, I don`t know whether she was telling the truth or not. And obviously, you know, the jurors had questions in their mind, and I really can`t say. Obviously, she`s not going to be prosecuted for perjury.

PINSKY: But you get (ph) my question. Would you perjury yourself for Lisa if her life were in danger?

BLOOM: I`m listening.

(LAUGHTER)

PINSKY: Because if it were my child, I don`t know the answer. I`ll be honest. I`ll let you up talk a little bit. I`m not sure.

ALLRED: Well, the job of a witness is to tell the truth, and I would tell the truth. This is not difficult for me because I know that my daughter lives her values, and her values do not include doing anything harmful to any other human being.

PINSKY: Rob, we haven`t heard from you yet. What did you observe in this dynamic between Casey and Cindy?

ROB DICK, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, there`s one thing that has to be added to it. Being around Casey, you have to understand too that she has such a belief in herself in trying to put herself out there in an appearance in her own mind. That a lot of people say, well, why not just give the kid to her parents to raise, you know? Because they were. They had even threatened to take custody of her. Casey couldn`t do that because that would be a failure to herself. She would never do that.

PINSKY: Who is this other she`s trying to impress?

DICK: The whole world. I mean, she walks out, she wants to be seen. I mean, you know, while we`re taking her back and forth, there`s the media craze going on, the protesters outside, all this. You know, There`s not one question about Caylee or what`s going on about her daughter or anything else. Now, we know why.

I mean, she`s dead. But the thing is that there`s not even a question of it. She doesn`t even have the ability to pretend concern over it. She`s more interested in how good she looks, look at my glasses, how many cameras are out today. Let`s take a look.

PINSKY: As I remind people, at least twice the show, I feel a little nauseated. Sorry, it`s dinnertime when I bring this up, but this is that time tonight for me. So, thank you. Tracy and Rob, you`re going to stay with me. Lisa and Gloria, I really appreciate you sharing with me today. Very interesting stuff.

More mother/daughter resentment, rivalry, lies, what was really going on in that home in the days after Caylee went missing. Will Casey ever be able to go home or have a relationship with either of her parents? Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRUND: I saw the dynamic of that household. I saw the way that she was treated by certain members of that household, and that just kind of indicated to me that over the years, she may have been torn down enough to not think very well of herself. I did not see that as a household that I would want to grow up in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: Frankly, we`re going to find out. Something, whatever`s going on is going to be found out. So, why not do it now?

CASEY ANTHONY: There`s nothing to find out. There`s absolutely nothing to find out. Not even what I told the detectives.

LEE ANTHONY: Well, you know, everything that you`re telling them is a lie

CASEY ANTHONY: If I knew where Caylee was, do you think any of this would be happening? No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: That is a crazy statement. That`s where we all shake our head. Indeed, a shocking verdict. Casey Anthony not guilty of murder. Our producer chased the Anthony`s attorney, Mark Lippman, down as he was leaving court right after the verdict came in, and this is what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mark, do you have a comment?

MARK LIPPMAN, ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: Not right now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. How do your clients feel? Just one word to describe how they feel?

LIPPMAN: Glad it`s over.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Glad it`s over? How do you feel?

LIPPMAN: Trying to get over my cold.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: That is our crack (ph) producer, Sarah, once again. Now, glad it`s all over? Isn`t that a little strange? Wouldn`t you think her parents would be ecstatic their daughter was going to be free and is no longer in harms way, but there is this underlying -- let`s called tension maybe in the family caused by, I guess, deceit. I`m back with my terrific guests, Tracy McLaughlin and Rob Dick. They were both in the Anthony home. Why you guys think she`s refusing to see her mom in the jail?

MCLAUGHLIN: Well, she doesn`t want to be recorded. And that would be her first --

PINSKY: But she`s still recorded.

MCLAUGHLIN: Still recorded, and it would still come out, and she`s saving up for that.

PINSKY: So, she paid for that.

MCLAUGHLIN: Probably.

PINSKY: Why do you think Cindy wants to talk to her?

DICK: Well, Cindy`s going to be after the real story forever. I mean, she wants to know. Nobody really learned anything.

PINSKY: No. That`s right.

DICK: You know, I mean, Casey is still the only one that knows everything.

PINSKY: That`s really interesting. Rob, I haven`t asked you this yet. What`s your sense of what she knows?

DICK: What Casey knows?

PINSKY: What does she know? What do you think? What happen?

DICK: She`s the only one involved.

(CROSSTALK)

DICK: There was a pivotal moment. I mean, I don`t think Casey is evil, you know, down --

PINSKY: She killed a two-year-old. That`s evil. I`m not sure there`s more evil than that.

DICK: You know, premeditation takes a second. I mean, heat of the moment. I mean, I think the pivotal act was the fight the night of the 15th.

PINSKY: The big fight.

DICK: The big fight.

PINSKY: OK. Now, Casey`s brother, Lee, testified about Cindy`s reaction to Casey`s teen pregnancy. And by the way, some people may not know, she had a miscarriage allegedly even before that. Tracy, you`re shaking your head. Did you know about that?

MCLAUGHLIN: I heard it.

PINSKY: Yes. So, this is the second pregnancy. Well, here`s -- listen to this tape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: My mother had also referenced Caylee as being a mistake, but a great mistake or the best mistake that Casey`s ever made.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Again, with all that negativity, Tracy, coming from Cindy, do you think that Casey really resented all that judging coming from Cindy and that negativity?

MCLAUGHLIN: I think she did at times. And I felt the same way when I was a 19-year-old mother with my son. I felt like my mother would do a better job at it than I did. And, she never said anything to me, but when Casey was arrested, I sat with Cindy on the couch, and she asked me. She said, do you think it`s something I did?

Do you think it`s because I pushed her? She said, I never said anything to her. I didn`t judge her. She said, one time, there were mosquito bites on Caylee and so I asked about that, but I didn`t do it. I think Cindy really blamed herself.

PINSKY: Let`s sort of paint the picture, because you`ve talked to me once before about that moment. Casey is hauled away, was unexpected, and taken back to prison or back to jail. And Cindy is sitting there holding you crying in their living room.

MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.

PINSKY: Sobbing, is it me? Did I do this? Am I responsible for all of this?

MCLAUGHLIN: She thought she was responsible or she thought -- she said maybe do you think maybe she just lost her at the mall? She was so confused. She didn`t know -- she didn`t know what happened to Caylee.

PINSKY: Now, Cindy was so furious Casey wouldn`t let her speak to Caylee. She actually called the police, at one point, to have Casey arrested just because she wouldn`t let her get the kid, and you know about that story, since Casey disappeared with her car. Listen. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: I have someone here that I need to be arrested in my home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right now?

CINDY ANTHONY: And a possible missing child.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. What did the person do that you need arrested?

CINDY ANTHONY: My daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For what?

CINDY ANTHONY: For stealing an auto.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Now, Rob, you`re kind of smiling at that. Why?

DICK: Well, it`s, you know, George is law enforcement. My dad was law enforcement. I was law enforcement. OK? That`s a law enforcement family. Casey is -- she doesn`t care about that. That doesn`t impress her.

(CROSSTALK)

DICK: Well, no. Cindy thinks it does at that point. She`s trying to give the ultimate threat. You know, just like your dad, I`m going to use law enforcement. I`m going to try to get an answer out of you.

PINSKY: But they had done -- again, people may not be aware that Cindy had done that repeatedly. She had called the cops, run out there with fraudulent checks. She had called the police for now this.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: But by the way, but this is a mom who doesn`t understand her daughter`s in trouble? Doesn`t understand her daughter`s ill or has a problem?

DICK: Here`s the biggest problem you have is that they`ve lived with these lies for so long.

PINSKY: Yes, but why didn`t Cindy step up and go -- George was sort of saying enough, was he not?

DICK: He is. That`s the cop in him. You know, I`m going to get to the bottom of this. I got to know what happened.

PINSKY: And Cindy just keeps buying in.

DICK: Well, yes and no because they`re both flip-flopping. I mean, do you really want to believe your daughter did the ultimate?

PINSKY: But you`re calling the cops on your daughter repeatedly. That`s how bad it is. It`s like an episode of cops, and people -- you know what I mean? That`s how bad it`s got --

DICK: And here`s the thing. You`ve already smelled the death smell. That`s in your head. George knows what that smell is. The only one that`s missing is Caylee. I mean, can you imagine -- I can`t even imagine that. Can you imagine the torment inside his body going, OK, my granddaughter is probably dead? OK, my daughter did it. Oh, my God. Wait. No way --

PINSKY: OK. And again -- Tracey is shaking her head vigorously in agreement with you. These are two people who spent ten days in that household. Is George done? Is he out of that household, you think? I have two questions. Is he gone? And is Cindy going to try to swoop in here and have a relationship with Casey?

MCLAUGHLIN: I think George is totally fed up.

PINSKY: He`s done.

MCLAUGHLIN: He`s done. And I think Cindy will -- Cindy loves Casey, but she also wants to find out what happened to Caylee. and She`ll spend the rest of her life trying to get the truth out of her.

PINSKY: Rob?

DICK: Well, there again, you know, a father. I don`t know. At what point do you --

PINSKY: Do you have kids?

DICK: Yes. I don`t know. I can`t put myself in that place because thank God I`m not, you know? But, I mean, how emotional --

PINSKY: One more question about George. Is he somebody we should trust?

DICK: Yes. George didn`t do anything. He never (INAUDIBLE).

PINSKY: Excellent. Guys, I really appreciate it. Tracy, Rob.

Coming up, will Casey go home when she is set free on Sunday? Has the Anthony family been torn apart beyond repair? I say yes. Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Tell me I can`t (INAUDIBLE). Yes you did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shut the door, please.

CINDY ANTHONY: I can`t come in (ph).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, I don`t have anything. I`m sorry. I`ve been here a month today. Do you understand how I feel? I mean, do you really understand how I feel in this? I`m completely, completely out of the loop with everything. The only information I get is when I see my attorney. That`s it. Outside of that, I have nothing to go on. Every day, I have to sit here and wait and wonder. I wonder if something`s going on. I`m wondering if there`s something new.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Tonight, does Cindy want her daughter to come home? She tried to visit Casey in jail the night the verdict came down, but Casey refused to see her. Will Casey even want to go back to where she lived with Caylee or will she -- maybe, she`ll want to go Hollywood? Take a look at this. In jailhouse letters, Casey told a fellow inmate how much she thinks she looks like Alyssa Milano. Sorry, Alyssa. This is a friend.

And by the way, if you want to follow (ph) somebody`s smart on Twitter, follow Alyssa Milano. Apparently, she`s already planning, Casey is, who should play her in the made for TV movie. I`m -- excuse me -- like choke on those words. I am back with Tracy McLaughlin and Rob Dick. Rob, now, you know Casey. Is she going to try to cash in on her 15 minutes of fame? I don`t see her changing her appearance. I can see her going out and just --

DICK: One hundred percent. She can be a handful.

PINSKY: But doesn`t that scare you that somebody might -- there`s a blood lust out there in the frenzy of the crowd. Aren`t you guys fearful something is going to happen to her?

DICK: Oh, yes. I mean, 100 percent. I mean, even the night we`re talking about where she went back into custody, I mean, we had 200 or 300 people out there like a lynch mob in front yard. It`s been one other guy trying to keep their buddy back from the front of the house. I mean, this is tenfold now.

PINSKY: She should (ph) hire a bodyguard. Let me ask you something. Do you know who the father of Caylee was? Does anybody know?

DICK: I don`t know that Casey even knows.

PINSKY: Now, let`s let the full impact of that statement in. She was so promiscuous that she doesn`t even know who the father was? Is that what we`re saying?

DICK: I don`t know that she was just, you know, out, whoever comes along. It`s just a matter of she has several probable choices.

PINSKY: Do they know who the choices were? Does anybody know?

DICK: Well, you can`t believe a word she says, you know?

MCLAUGHLIN: True.

DICK: She says, oh, it`s this one. This one and that, you know? Jesse, Jesse stepped up to the plate. He didn`t even do the math in the beginning.

PINSKY: he`s a good kid. I spoke to him.

DICK: Yes.

PINSKY: Yes. And he got sucked in all the way and then flipped on his ear and blamed and framed.

DICK: Oh, yes. They went for him hard in the beginning.

PINSKY: Who was that? Who motivated that?

DICK: Well, first meeting with Baez, Baez put it on the table.

(CROSSTALK)

MCLAUGHLIN: It`s first thing he brought up.

PINSKY: Do you think Baez knows really what happened?

DICK: I`m 100 percent sure Baez knows. Well, OK, let me preface that with whatever Casey told him.

PINSKY: Right. Whatever Casey tells anybody. I mean, the only thing we know for sure, ladies and gentlemen, is that Casey Anthony is a consummate lying fill in the blank after that. That she can do, and you know, I would love to talk to Yuri Melich (ph) because that poor guy had to sit here lie after lie when he was trying to be helpful on a lost child case. And it was just stunning to hear all those lies.

DICK: Something they mentioned before, but even when we were driving, you know, she lied about stuff that didn`t even have to be.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Thank you, guys, Tracy, Rob. I want to talk to you more possible (ph). Tomorrow, we will be addressing the public`s enduring fascination with the Casey Anthony case. Thank you for watching. I`ll see you next time.

END