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Casey Anthony`s Mental Health
Aired July 13, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
Analyze this. Is Casey Anthony a head case? Well, the only person that knows for sure is here. I will find out. Casey, crazy or not?
Plus, they are lining up to sue her. For what?
Then, Kato Kaelin on infamy, scandal and outrage. Want to know what advice O.J.`s house guest has for Casey? I do.
Let`s go figure this out.
Well, the Casey freedom clock is ticking. Just under 75 hours until she gets out of jail.
So many of you have been asking about Casey Anthony`s mental health. Could this woman who is obviously a liar be ill? Is she evil? Is she a criminal? Is she sick?
I`m not sure. I want to believe that there is a medical reason for Casey`s clearly questionable actions. That`s the only way I know how to understand things. I get to sit down with these people later and sort of hear how the dots all connect.
This woman didn`t report that her own child was missing. Would a sane person not call someone for help?
But it`s apparent that the mob -- that`s all of us, let`s face it -- thinks that this issue is an issue of criminality. That`s why a lot of us are condemning her and the jury`s decision.
Well, we`re going to have an answer once and for all tonight about Casey`s mental well-being, health. In just minutes, the forensic psychiatrist who spent 20 hours with her is here, and he is authorized by Casey directly to tell us all what he found. I`ve got some questions for this young man.
Now on to the latest Casey news. Tonight, a tortured Casey Anthony juror speaks out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And now that you look back at it, do you wish you did serve on this jury?
JENNIFER FORD, JUROR IN CASEY ANTHONY TRIAL: I would have been OK if I wasn`t a part of it. I would have been OK with that.
TUCHMAN: And why do you say that?
FORD: Just because for six weeks, we had minimal freedoms, and then the welcoming committee. I`m being sarcastic. But, you know, you come home and everyone is mad at you, and the media is outside hounding you and making it clear they are not leaving. And it`s just very stressful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, there is a sad piece to this. Doing their duty, their civil duty, they are taking grief for it.
Now, why one juror says coming up with a not guilty verdict left her sick to her stomach. We have got more of that interview with juror number three in a moment.
But first, with just four days until Casey is a free woman, her own parents, George and Cindy, say they support the new Caylee`s Law. That law would make not supporting your child missing a felony.
Plus, people are suing mad. The list of lawsuits against Casey gets longer and longer. We`ll talk to the man who led an intense search for little Caylee. He is worried Casey will disguise herself, change her name, and start a whole new life.
Watch this and then we`re going to talk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our colleague Gary Tuchman had a chance to talk with one of the jurors.
TUCHMAN: You just felt that the prosecution didn`t have enough evidence to convict?
FORD: There was a lot of doubt surrounding all those certain things. So just lack of hard evidence.
MIKE BROOKS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Texas EquuSearch is suing Casey Anthony.
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION," TRUTV: They say that they spent over $112,000 trying to find Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My God, how in the world could we have been suckered so bad?
SMITH: If she would have just come forward and told them, they could have saved thousands of man hours.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you wonder, OK, what is Casey Anthony` mindset moving forward?
NANCY GRACE, HOST, "NANCY GRACE": Doctor Crop (ph) spent hours and hours with "Tot Mom" behind bars.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think what Casey doesn`t appreciate is how negative and how much she has been vilified.
PINSKY: That may be true.
We`re going straight now to my guests. CNN correspondent Gary Tuchman is live in Orlando. Criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh joins us from Miami. And EquuSearch director Tim Miller is live in Houston.
Now, Gary, first to you, you spoke to juror number 3, Jennifer Ford. She told you at first the jury was split. Tell us about that.
TUCHMAN: Hey, Dr. Drew.
The jury was split 6-6 on the aggravated manslaughter charge when they first voted. And she, Jennifer Ford, was on the side of finding Casey Anthony guilty of aggravated manslaughter, but she says after hours, the six people, including her, who thought she was guilty, started to change their mind. And they ultimately decided even though they believe the defense lied during opening statements, they did not believe that George molested his daughter, they didn`t even believe that there was a possibility that Caylee drowned. But they also ultimately said they did not have proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Casey, who is in this jail behind me, murdered her daughter Caylee.
PINSKY: That`s very interesting. And she also expressed how much stress there has been being a juror. Can you tell us a little bit about that too?
TUCHMAN: Yes. It was a very hard interview for us to do, Dr. Drew, because we spent a few hours with her before she would agree to go on camera because she has gotten hate mail, she has gotten death threats. She thought it would make it worse by talking to us.
And what we explained was we certainly wanted to learn a little bit about what went on in the jury room. We also wanted to talk about the humanity of the situation and make it clear to our viewers that, you may disagree with the verdict -- and most of our viewers do, because most of the nation does -- but you can`t attack the jurors, because if you attack the jurors, who is going to serve on a jury in the future? Who would want to?
PINSKY: Gary, I hope people are listening to you. Let`s remember, it`s not the jurors` fault. They were doing their due diligence, doing their civic duty.
Casey did create this vortex. It`s OK to lay the blame there as far as I`m concerned.
Jennifer Ford says she didn`t even believe Caylee drowned in the pool. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TUCHMAN: I`m wondering if you think that there was a possibility that she could have drowned. Was there any evidence that convinced you of that?
FORD: There was no evidence that convinced me of that. No.
TUCHMAN: So you don`t think she drowned, you don`t think she was molested. So, what a casual viewer of this trial might say is, OK, well, how come you didn`t find she was guilty of murder?
FORD: Because it has nothing to do with what the defense presents. It`s on the prosecution to prove what -- they brought charges. They have to prove with their evidence that those charges are -- they can validate bringing those charges and that a crime was committed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Gary, now she also said she didn`t believe Casey was abused by George. Tell us about that. And yet, we`ve heard mixed things, that some people didn`t trust George on the jury, that they sort of vilified him a little bit amongst themselves.
Can you tell me about that?
TUCHMAN: I mean, she thought it was all smoke screens. She was actually disgusted the defense brought that up in its opening statement. She was repulsed by it and she didn`t think it necessarily mattered when that alleged mistress took the stand.
That wasn`t the point to this juror. This juror basically said what it came down to -- and it wasn`t the prosecution`s fault. She spoke very admirably about Jeff Ashton, the lead prosecutor. But she believed, ultimately, they did not have enough evidence. That`s certainly arguable, but that was her belief.
I think one of the most amazing things she told me -- and I just never thought about this -- is that when the prosecution announced, "We have rested our case," she -- and she says the others on the jury -- this is what they discussed during deliberations -- said, what do you mean you are resting your case? We`re waiting for the big stuff to come. We`re waiting for your big evidence.
They thought there was a lot more to come. So it`s very possible that the prosecution`s goose was cooked after the prosecution announced it was resting its case.
PINSKY: Very interesting. Gary, thank you for that report.
And now, Tim Miller, you and tons of volunteers searched for Caylee. Now you say you can`t believe she misled you and that you fell for it, and you`re going to sue.
Now, what was she like when you searched for Caylee? Was she convincing?
TIM MILLER, DIRECTOR, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: I mean, she was the same Casey that we had seen sitting through the trial. I mean, let`s face it, she had very few emotions even at the trial. I think the majority of them were probably fake emotions that she did have.
When I met her the first time I walked in the house, it was different than 1,200-plus families that I have been with in the last 10.5 years. I mean, there was not that fear and helplessness and hopelessness in her eyes and saying just thank you so much for being here.
It was very calm. I walked in. She hugged us, and myself and another member. And I kissed her on the cheek and said, "I`m so sorry for what you are going through right now. We hope we have some resources that can help."
And she says, "I know she is alive out there, and I hope somehow you can bring her back." And I found that real strange, Dr. Drew, because in all the time I was with her over the first four days and stuff, and spent a lot of time with her, she never said the word "Caylee" one time. So right away, I felt as though -- "bring her back," that Caylee was already past tense.
And also, I found it strange when she says, "I hope you can bring her back," instead of "bring her back home." So, after working with as many families as I have --
PINSKY: Yes, interesting. I mean, so many people that met her during that period have said that there was something strange and that peculiarity seems to be that she knew something that nobody else did, and yet she still dragged everybody into her vortex.
We are also hearing tonight shocking news that George and Cindy actually support Caylee`s Law. Now, Caylee`s Law would make it a second- degree crime for a parent, guardian or caregiver not to report a child that`s gone missing or has died.
Mark Eiglarsh, what do you make of the law, and what do you think it says about George and Cindy that they support it?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the easiest thing for me to say to avoid all the hate mail is it`s wonderful. Why would I say anything against little Caylee? But the reality is, I don`t feel that way.
I`m not saying I oppose it. I just have tremendous concerns about it.
It will definitely result in many paranoid parents worried about going to the pokey reporting their child missing, even if it`s only been a couple hours. What you can expect then is law enforcement to be inundated with calls from parents who are just concerned that their children went missing, even though their bratty teenager just wanted to skateboard for a few more hours. Then legitimate abductions, those legitimate parents who are worried about their children being taken, and that really did take place, those reports, I think, might get lost in the piles of those calls made to law enforcement because of this reporting requirement.
PINSKY: I am not sad (ph) about those pragmatic issues, but I am sort of concerned that we have to have a law, we have to have big brother again intervening to get us to do good parenting.
Thank you to my guests.
Coming up, I will talk to a forensic psychologist who treated Casey Anthony behind bars. Does Casey actually believe her own lies? Is she mentally ill?
I`m going to get to the bottom of it. You don`t want to miss this.
PINSKY: Tonight, is Casey a cold-blooded killer who got away with murder or a troubled mentally ill young woman?
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, ACCUSED OF MURDERING HER DAUGHTER: I`m sitting in jail. There`s nothing anybody can do right now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So how come everybody is saying you are lying?
ANTHONY: Because nobody (EXPLETIVE DELETED) listening to anything that I`m saying. The media completely misconstrued everything that I said.
The (EXPLETIVE DELETED) detectives pulled the (EXPLETIVE DELETED). They got all of their information from me. Yet, at the same time, they are twisting stuff. They`ve already said they`re going to pin this on me if they don`t find Caylee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: This is one of the features of the case that has everyone so riveted, which is her lying that is so convincing and so fluid. You wonder, does she actually believe her own lies? We`re going to figure this out.
I`m joined by Harry Krop. He is a forensic psychologist who actually evaluated Casey Anthony and spent 20 hours with her in five or six visits.
Dr. Krop, thank you for visiting us.
So Casey did not testify in her own trial. And there was questions about her competency. Let me just throw up one question to start with. Do you believe that she had significant mental illness?
DR. HARRY KROP, PSYCHOLOGIST, EVALUATED CASEY ANTHONY: I do not believe -- based on all of my interactions with her, as well as the psychological testing, I don`t believe that she has any diagnosable mental illness. She has always been competent to proceed from the initial stages of my involvement, all the way through to the end of the trial.
PINSKY: OK. For my viewers, I want to try to break this down a little bit, because we throw around a lot of terms that we use with great accuracy that the general public may not understand exactly what we`re talking about.
Let`s talk about what we mean when we say mental illness. What are we saying then?
KROP: Well, when I`m referring to mental illness, I`m referring to a psychiatric or a psychological disorder. A person must meet certain behavioral criteria to be actually diagnosed with a mental illness. It doesn`t mean --
PINSKY: OK. And Dr. Krop, I`m going to interrupt you. Do you mean - - now, this is two clinicians talking here. I`ll explain what I mean in a second.
Do you mean Axis I diagnoses, or are you including Axis II in that?
KROP: For Casey, I am including both Axis I and Axis II. And one of the reasons that she --
PINSKY: OK. So what -- I`m going to say for the public, what he and I are talking about, Axis I are diagnoses like depression and anxiety disorders and psychotic illnesses, people who have thought disorders. They believe they are Napoleon, that kind of thing. Axis II is really what we have been talking about with Casey, which is chronic behavioral disturbances, lying, interpersonal chaos.
It`s hard for me, Dr. Krop, to understand how she could not have an Axis II diagnosis.
KROP: I understand how that`s difficult both for you, as well as the public, to believe that she doesn`t have an Axis II disorder. I have seen on your show, as well as some of the other shows on your network, individuals coming on and making references to her as either a psychopath or a sociopath.
One of the reasons that Casey actually authorized me to go public with the results of my evaluation was because she wanted it to known to the public, both the good and the bad of Casey. But I think Casey feels that - - and for obvious reasons -- that the public has really only seen part of who Casey Anthony really is.
PINSKY: All right. So let me ask another question. So she may not have a diagnosable disorder with Axis II. Does she have what we call borderline traits or sociopathic traits?
KROP: No, she doesn`t have those traits either.
PINSKY: That`s impossible! I can`t believe that. Wait a minute, Doctor. I can`t believe that.
She has created a vortex. She is a chronic liar. She is engaging in criminal behavior.
How is that possible?
KROP: She`s an intelligent woman, but basically an extremely immature woman. You have to understand that the Casey that I have been involved with -- and I didn`t get involved in the case until November of 2010, when I was requested to evaluate her for specifically the purpose of possibly testifying at her sentencing phase if she were convicted. So I did not see the Casey that is shown on the TV and is shown on some of the videos and the recordings when she talked to her mother.
When I spoke to Casey about those conversations and some of the things that have been shown on TV, she, herself -- and I`m not suggesting that she is denying that -- but, she, herself, has a difficult time truly understanding how she could have been so immature and how she could have engaged in the kind of behavior that the public has seen so much of her.
PINSKY: Again, I`m left with a big question mark over my head, because that`s sort of our job, to try to understand those things and understand how she could have been.
Was she involved in any negligence towards her child? I have 30 seconds for that answer.
KROP: No. Not that I`m aware of.
PINSKY: All right. Well, we`re going to keep talking with you.
And still, again, for my viewers, I want to kind of understand this, because the next question I want to ask you after we get back from the commercial is, well, if she doesn`t have psychiatric illnesses, she doesn`t have psychological problems, is she a criminal?
So, coming up next, more with the forensic psychologist who spent more than 20 hours in the same room as Casey Anthony. I`ll ask him if he thinks Casey is capable of murdering her daughter.
Stay with us.
PINSKY: I am back with the psychologist who spent hours evaluating Casey Anthony. Now, if Casey had been found guilty of murdering her daughter, he would have testified at her sentencing.
Harry Krop, forensic psychologist, what would you have said to the court at that point?
KROP: First, let me preface, Dr. Drew, by saying that I have seen over 2,000 individuals who have been charged with first-degree murder. And I have written some research on the profiles of individuals who have been sentenced to death row.
And certainly, my evaluation of Casey and one of the things that I would have stressed, besides talking about a dysfunctional family, I would have talked about how, if she had engaged in the behavior that the jury would have found her guilty on, I would have talked about how it would have been out of character for what I knew about her, what I`ve learned about Casey. It would be out of character for what I`ve learned about her parenting, that she was not a negligent or abusive parent. I don`t think anybody has ever suggested that. And it also would have been out of character for -- in comparing to her prior history or lack of history of violence.
So if there was a homicide, it would have been out of character for her.
PINSKY: OK. But we do have -- but in terms of character, we have lying, we have sexual acting out, we have a vortex of chaos in her life. I mean, that`s what I am accustomed to from drug addicts and people with personality disorders.
Now, you`re saying it`s sort of immaturity. And indeed, we see her putting tape and the little heart over the mouth, the tape, like treating the dead body like a little doll. But the developmental delays, are you saying a neurological problem where she has delayed developmentally? Or is that just a character problem?
KROP: She is not delayed developmentally in terms of her physical development or her intellectual development. She has average I.Q. She`s in the 70th percentile compared to the overall population.
But in terms of maturity -- and again, I think this even comes from Casey`s mouth -- she can`t believe how immature and how she behaved. And again, I emphasize that I am seeing a Casey who has been in jail for close to three years when I start seeing her. So she, herself, when she looks back in time, has a real hard time understanding how she behaved the way she behaved.
PINSKY: All right. Dr. Krop, I think what everyone wants me to ask you, I`ll go ahead and ask, which is, do you think she had something to do with Caylee`s demise?
KROP: Obviously, that`s a question that I have gotten a lot since I have spent a lot of time talking to her. And I hate to disappoint you and your viewers, but that`s an area that I am going to have to defer until Casey, herself, chooses to talk about that.
PINSKY: All right. Well, I do appreciate you coming here. And I`ve got a million more questions. I hope you will come back, because you`re one person who spent a lot of time with her and is trained to evaluate. And I still can`t make sense of what has gone on here.
I do know that she is a liar, and lying doesn`t usually exist as an isolated phenomenon. So I want to ask when you come back.
KROP: I`d be happy to.
PINSKY: It`s strange now to be so universally known -- thank you, sir -- and yet be so lonely. That is what Einstein said. Fame can be a dream or a nightmare.
Coming up, Kato Kaelin, the O.J. house guest who achieved fame from a murder trial. He will tell us what Casey has to look forward to.
And later, the Casey obsession. Hard to grasp. We`ll explain later.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Tonight, more jury secrets revealed by those who found Casey Anthony not guilty of murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t think she drowned. You don`t think she was molested. So, what the casual viewer on this trial might say is, OK, well, how come you didn`t find she was guilty of murder?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because it has nothing to do with what the defense presents.
PINSKY: And a forensic psychologist authorized by Casey to speak for her says she`s not mentally ill.
Coming up, more on our fascination with the case. Could it be growing? The frenzy of attention directed her way may reach fever pitch when she is released from jail in just four days. What can she expect? The world`s most famous house guest, Kato Kaelin, knows, and he`s here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera); Now, I want to remind people that producers ran here and told me that we will get the doctor back soon so I can continue to question him about what he found in Casey Anthony, because that`s somebody who has been trained to evaluate. He`s got some real facts. She wants us to hear them. I got a lot of questions, too.
All right. Now, the Casey freedom countdown clock ticks right there at the bottom of your screen. And about 74 hours, Casey will walk free from the Orange County custody, and then, she`ll be someone else`s house guest. No one can relate to that more than Kato Kaelin. He achieved worldwide notoriety as a witness during the murder trial of O.J. Simpson. Here`s a look back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re reminded you are still under oath, sir.
KATO KAELIN, WITNESS IN THE O.J. SIMPSON TRIAL: I was reading a paper, and it would come up about just Nicole that the relationship was over.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now, that call that you made at 9:37, how long was that made after you saw the defendant standing at his car?
KAELIN: Right after. I heard a thumping noise.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were you warned of anything as you were escorted out of the property?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what was that?
KAELIN: They said, be careful of the blood. They said to tell the truth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If it doesn`t fit, you must acquit.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury in the above-entitled action find the defendant, Orenthal James Simpson not guilty of the crime of murder.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Kato, welcome.
KAELIN: Thank you so much. Good to see you.
PINSKY: First of all, where did your hair go?
KAELIN: My hair, I cut it. I hope you like it. I love that you, guys, have that clock there. It`s like Dick Clark`s rocking eve. It`s like that. It`s like the Super Bowl is coming. That`s a media event.
PINSKY: It has been a media event and were you surprised by the verdict?
KAELIN: One hundred percent surprised. I thought, honestly, I said, this is a slam-dunk. Absolutely no way she won`t get something.
PINSKY: Did you think the same thing about O.J.?
KAELIN: I did.
KAELIN: I did. I thought he was going to be guilty.
KAELIN: And I`m just amazed. We don`t know what it goes on in a jury room. But I thought, how can she not be guilty of everything that was brought out by the prosecution tape. I`m just -- I`m blown away.
PINSKY: It must be difficult to know what it feels like to go from not being known to being famous all of a sudden. I mean, that`s, you know, the Anthonys, some people love them. Some people hate them. Let`s take a look back. Watch this of what Kato went through.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to see Kato. My son did a photo shoot with him, and I want to have him say, I belong to the fan club. And I ordered a picture, the big picture of it. He is the sexiest man alive.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is a joke. I think he is ridiculous. And if he doesn`t realize, he`s a gag by now. It`s pathetic. So, what I`m doing is getting a gag gift. I`m going to use this as a joke.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Kato, people loved you, people hated you. Why do you think people responded so strongly? That was a giant media event too, obviously?
KAELIN: Yes, because people think, they think they know who you are. You`re on TV day after day. And they really -- they don`t know you. It`s just incredible how much power the media has. It`s not a soap opera like I am Kato the character, but I`m a real person. So, people think that you are what they want to believe in their mind. People think they want to relate like, hey, I can relate to you that you do this. I`m like, hey, I`m not that guy that you think.
PINSKY: Well, that`s interesting, because I think you`re right. I think people become sort of cartoon characters on television.
PINSKY: I`ve seen this over and over again. And then, you project into them whatever your feelings are. I know my wife was not happy with you, because she felt that women were being disempowered and that you were supporting your friend. Did you encounter that kind of thing?
KAELIN: Completely. You know, I was just a witness in the trial. And even being a witness, people would spit at me. They wanted to fight. And I was there to be 100 percent honest. And I was. And everybody like formed an opinion. So, the ones that didn`t like me is like, you can`t do anything.
Drew, I was one of those guys in high school everybody kind of liked, (INAUDIBLE) and the jocks. So, to be hated for a little bit, it blew me away. I mean, I became an introvert, from an extrovert to an introvert. I was this (ph) person. I was silent for a while.
PINSKY: Well, what`s going to happen to Casey when she gets out? People -- I`m fearful for her.
KAELIN: Completely. Casey Anthony is, I think she`ll get one deal and that`s going to be her first interview, I think, because people want to hear it.
KAELIN: That doesn`t mean that they`ll like her.
PINSKY: But they`re not going to believe it, anyway, though.
KAELIN: But they`re going to see her, and they`re going to try to say, look at that liar. I think that`s going to be ratings -- huge ratings. After that, forget it. She`s got to move, dye her hair. She`s done.
PINSKY: Wow. Did you go into hiding for a while yourself?
KAELIN: I didn`t go out like I used to with friends and that, because I loved it when people loved me, but when they hated me, I had no defense. I was like, hey, I`m a good guy. Come on, like me. So, I figured out that you can`t have everybody like you.
PINSKY: All right. Now, all of us are guilty to some extent of thinking we can form opinions of others through testimony and through the media. Kato, watch this clip of you on the witness stand.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you have a conversation with the defendant about his situation with Nicole Brown?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what did he tell you about that?
KAELIN: About my living arrangement?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right. About your living arrangement and his situation with Nicole.
KAELIN: There is different things.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In mid to late May, did the defendant ask you to start looking for a place to live?
KAELIN: Did he ask me to look, no.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did he indicate anything to you with respect to his relationship with Nicole ?
KAELIN: Their relationship was over.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I remember people saying that you were evasive at that point. Were you aware of what was going on in the public as you were up there, the object of scrutiny like that?
KAELIN: I wasn`t, but I`ll say one thing is that when you are -- I was with Marsha Clark for hours, hours. She would prep and that was -- I was evasive because that was not part of the prep. And I was trying to make sure I`m answering everything correctly at that time.
PINSKY: So, you were trying to be a good witness?
KAELIN: I was trying to be the best witness possible.
PINSKY: And I remember you said another thing. When people would ask you, you know, if you think he did it? No one ever ask you that.
PINSKY: And people sort of blamed you for not having an opinion about that on the stand. Which sort of goes to the issue of the constraints of the courtroom, doesn`t it?
PINSKY: Talk about that, because that`s what people are sort of freaked out about now, which is, how did the jury get to this? Why did it happen the way it did, and some of it is our system, isn`t it?
KAELIN: It`s completely you can`t speculate. You can`t say your opinion because it`s your opinion. And had they asked me my opinion, I would have said that.
PINSKY: You would have said, I think he did it?
KAELIN: I think he was guilty. I can`t prove it. I told everything in the order of how I remember everything happening. But did I -- can I say he did it? No, I can`t say. I can give you my opinion.
PINSKY: You think he`s guilty.
KAELIN: I think he`s guilty, yes.
PINSKY: And do you have a relationship with him anymore?
KAELIN: No, no, nothing at all. No. I have nothing with, actually, anybody in the trial, because I think it`s best. I started sort of my life over after the civil trial ended, too. Forget it. I`m done
PINSKY: Did you -- you know, one of the things that I`m also fascinated by in this case is the sort of mob mentality that we all have in regard to this. I mean, you were the first, really the first case that was the object of that kind of behavior.
PINSKY: Are you seeing that happen again now with the viewers and the people getting so worked up about this?
KAELIN: Completely. And I`ll tell you, it`s a big difference, becoming famous. You know, being famous for, you mentioned for the murder trial, it`s my worst wish. I didn`t want to become famous for something like that, but you can`t do anything about that. Who knew that when I testified, everybody is going to know, Kato, Kato. You can`t, so you have to live your life and just play it out.
PINSKY: My question is, you know, I can feel this mentality that`s being sort of -- I want to think we`re not fueling it, but I can see it aflame.
KAELIN: No. We are fueling it.
PINSKY: Did it scare you?
PINSKY: Was it a fearful, a frightening feeling?
KAELIN: I had a radio show. I`d get death threats being a witness. You get a death -- I think someone is crazy enough. You hear all the crazy stuff going on into the news. I think someone will possibly take her life.
PINSKY: I think so, too, and that`s what I`m fearful. It`s almost like the crowd needs a blood to sort of have a catharsis.
KAELIN: It`s very Roman. And also, it`s a snowball effect. It is. It`s a Roman, like, a stoning. She`s going to -- it`s a snowball effect. When you defend yourself, someone else goes, yes, hit her, no, hit her, and it goes on and on and on and on.
PINSKY: It`s that mob mentality. We`re all guilty of that.
KAELIN: I`m not leaving.
PINSKY: What are you doing now? I got to go to break.
KAELIN: Right now, you can check me out at the Orleans Hotel. It`s in Las Vegas. Of course, incredibly funny guys, Jeff Richards from "Saturday Night Live" and, of course, the great Wilson. What are you doing this weekend?
PINSKY: Maybe I will go to Las Vegas.
KAELIN: That`s a place that Casey Anthony would probably hide.
PINSKY: I do not want to be a part of those kinds of thoughts. Thank you, Kato.
Now, why are we all seemingly so obsessed with Casey Anthony trial and the Anthony family? Does Casey really want to be a celebrity? We`re going to talk about that after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not guilty? No, no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not guilty. Boo, boo.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you kidding me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What a disgrace.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, no, you don`t.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get out of the way, cameraman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I just shake my head every time I see that footage. It is the running of the humans in Orlando. That is obsession at work. Casey Anthony walks free in four days. For the past month, this case has dominated the water cooler conversations around every office. Tonight, we`re going to talk about the continuing obsession with the trial, but first, let`s take a look at the reaction to Casey`s acquittal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Without a shadow of a doubt, she did it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`ll get her judgment, someday.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Any time she comes out is too soon for me. OK. What she did was a disgrace to all, not just Caylee but all innocent children in the world.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That (EXPLETIVE DELETED) needs to die the most painful (EXPLETIVE DELETED) horrible, slow death ever.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was totally ridiculous. No mother could have a child missing for 31 days and say nothing and be completely innocent. That is not possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Lots of hatred. I still wake up in the middle of the night with images of angry grandpa awakened with the start. My question is, what is Casey going to do when she`s released? Is the mom who is accused of killing her child obsessed with being a celebrity? We`ve heard some things about that from people that know her.
Joining me in the studio tonight, Kato, we convinced him to stay with us. I said goodbye, but I brought him back. It`s not part of live television. It`s one of the advantages. "Star" magazine senior editor, Dylan Howard, the star of "Chelsea Lately," Heather McDonald, and one of the "Real Housewives of Beverly Hills," Kyle Richards. Dylan, I`m going to start with you. Is Casey actually a celebrity at this point?
DYLAN HOWARD, SR. EXECUTIVE EDITOR, STAR MAGAZINE: No, she`s not, but this is in every sense of the word almost like a melodrama. The case had more twists and turns than Hitchcock thriller. So, in Hollywood, inevitably, she becomes news, and she has a level of celebrity, but is she a celebrity for her actions? Absolutely not.
PINSKY: Not. And Heather, I noticed you twittered today about there not being much ink spilled about her.
HEATHER MCDONALD, WRITER, "CHELSEA LATELY": Yes. Well, I definitely don`t think she`s going to go away. I kind of see her like I like to predict what`s going to happen in people`s lives, and I think that she --
PINSKY: Predict mine.
MCDONALD: Well, yours is going great.
MCDONALD: No. I think that I could see her going -- like getting some press and going away and actually doing like an Amy Fisher where she has a couple kids.
PINSKY: No. She`s not going to be on "Celebrity Rehab." She`s not going to be on "Celebrity Rehab." Everyone asks me that. That`s not going to happen.
MCDONALD: I see her being a little bit OK but then falling off the wagon, whatever it is. Like, even you gave her $1 million, in two years, she will be broke. I guarantee she`ll be broke and she`ll be like, you know, doing fraudulent checks again. Like, she`s just a mess that craves drama and attention no matter what.
PINSKY: And you`re right. People with those kinds of patterns in their lives, they tend to continue, unless, there have been treatment. Take a look at this jailhouse video back in 2008. Casey is talking about her new found fame with her mom, Cindy. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: You`re the one that gets to control everything.
CASEY ANTHONY, ACCUSED OF KILLING HER DAUGHTER: Dad, please.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Sweetie.
CASEY ANTHONY: I am completely --
GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m not trying to get you upset. I`m trying to talk to you.
CASEY ANTHONY: No. I am upset now. I`m completely upset. One, the media is going to have a freaking field day with this. I wasn`t even supposed to take this. Let me speak for a second. Dad, I let everybody talk. They`re not releasing it, well, I hope not. I`ll keep saying whatever I have to about the police so they don`t want to go. Can someone let me -- come on.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Casey, hold on, sweetheart.
CASEY ANTHONY: Nobody is letting me speak. You want me to talk. Give me three seconds to say something.
CINDY ANTHONY: All right. I`ll listen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It is disturbing on many levels. Kyle, you`re having a reaction. Tell us.
KYLE RICHARDS, "REAL HOUSEWIVES OF BEVERLY HILLS": No. I just can`t believe the anger in her face talking to her parents. You can see the rage in her. It`s unbelievable to me.
PINSKY: Yes. And yet -- and she`s talking about things that are absolute untruths. She`s lying abject lies and angry that people won`t let her tell her abject lies.
RICHARDS: Everything out in her mouth is a lie.
HOWARD: She knew that everything that she was doing was being relayed to the media, because in Florida, they have the sunshine law.
PINSKY: Yes. I love that. The euphemism of all time. The sunshine law as we can try to bright light on all this behavior.
HOWARD: Well, indeed. It means that everything that happens is a matter of government record becomes public. Every document, every piece of evidence, every video, every jailhouse visit, and that`s what made this trial the media super storm that it was.
KAELIN: I think she`s actually playing to the camera. She knows it. I think she knows she`s on camera. Like, this media is killing me or she knows the media is going to pick up on it.
PINSKY: She does allude to that.
MCDONALD: One thing that was so interesting is that, during the whole trial, the defense team probably told her, put your hair back, show your unattractive ears, and the minute -- and she did. She looked not that great.
HOWARD: It`s not that bad.
MCDONALD: They`re pretty Mickey Mousey to me, OK? Like, she`ll get them penned down when she gets her deal. But anyway, the minute she got off, the hair was -- she had a nice back poof like mine and a cute fitted sweater, and she was on again. Like she was, you know, -- she`s very attractive, naturally attractive, and she loves it. Absolutely.
RICHARDS: She`s a narcissist. I look at her. She is a narcissist.
PINSKY: Let me turn the subject around a little bit and say, why are we so preoccupied? You guys have all tweeted about it. You`ve all covered it. What is it that has us so obsessed with it? Kyle.
RICHARDS: I think when you see a crime like this, you expect to see a man. It wouldn`t be as shocking. When you see this sort of attractive girl with a beautiful smile -
PINSKY: Well, let me ask you this --
MCDONALD: And the parting after. Women have killed their children before. We all know the horrible stories, but it wasn`t so deliberate and then for so much time to go by where she is partying.
PINSKY: Is it that -- do we save --
RICHARDS: Her being attractive really affected people.
PINSKY: So, do we save a special to women, for instance, because this is a lot about women? Women are the ones that are really all so worked up about this. Although, we`re going to look at some guys in a second, but do women reserve a very special frenzy for women that are attractive, that use their sexuality who let us down?
MCDONALD: Yes. I think -- because you know that this -- I mean, you know this girl is going to have a boyfriend in six weeks. She is one of those girls that can manipulate a guy with the you know what in half a second.
RICHARDS: If it was an unattractive man, do you think we`d be standing here right now?
PINSKY: You`re probably right, but take a look at these guys, Heather. I want you too look at this. They`re holding up signs wanting to marry Casey.
RICHARDS: Well, that is disgusting. That is so disgusting.
MCDONALD: I`m almost glad, though, that guys are just as sick as the girls that marry like the night stalker and all those women that marry the Menendez boys, and you know?
RICHARDS: But she`s really enjoying this attention so much. And that is why I wish so much that they had just gone for life in prison, because that is the ultimate punishment for a narcissistic, sociopath like her. She wanted her freedom more than anything. To take that from her, it would have been the best punishment. Not death. That`s way too easy.
PINSKY: Dylan, where is the story going to go?
HOWARD: It`s going to live on forever.
PINSKY: Forever? I hope not.
HOWARD: Kato played a starring role in the O.J. Simpson trial.
PINSKY: Yes, he did.
HOWARD: And look, he`s here on the panel now, and he has a career. He had a career beforehand as well. But, these key figures in this trial will be major players for some time to come. Make no mistake about it. Whether that`s right or wrong.
PINSKY: Thirty seconds, guys. Heather, go.
MCDONALD: She`s a monster.
HOWARD: (INAUDIBLE) Don`t forget that.
PINSKY: Heather, last word?
MCDONALD: I feel bad for Cindy. Sorry. I do. A horrible daughter. And I think she made mistakes and with that daughter and the daughter used the baby against her mom. You won`t see my kid, and she`s one of those awful women.
PINSKY: I agree. But I`m an anxious person too, so I can relate to all her anxiety.
Coming up, well, will Casey go home when she`s set free Sunday? We`re going to see or is the mother who is acquitted of killing her daughter going to go Hollywood? We`ll keep that conversation going. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m not going to give the media anything when I get out of here. It sucks for them, because I have nothing to say. All I want is my kid back and to be back with my family. That`s all I want, all I`m asking, but I`m not going to ask any of them for it, because they`re not going to give that to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I`m back with my expert celebrity panel. I`ve got Kato Kaelin who knows a thing or two about fame after a trial, Star magazine senior editor, Dylan Howard, and Heather McDonald, she writes for "Chelsea Lately," and one of the "Real Housewives of Beverly Hills," Kyle Richards.
Dylan, I got to ask you about this. "Star" magazine made a composite of Casey`s possible makeover/disguise. Here we go. There it is. I think they stuck a Barbie head on Casey. Is it really possible that she`s going to go through a transformation like that? Do you really think plastic surgery is in her future?
HOWARD: Not some of their finest work, Dr. Drew. But what I will say is that is what she`s going to have to do. (INAUDIBLE) she`s going to have to change her appearance.
PINSKY: Kato said that.
HOWARD: If she`s to live some sort of normal life. So, there you go. If she`s had some plastic surgery, given her a bob and she could be walking down Rodeo Drive and that`s all.
PINSKY: I think Heather said they`re going to pin her ears.
PINSKY: They`re not going to
MCDONALD: But I don`t think she wants a normal life. I think she wants to see where it will go and providing, you know, is it -- clear something. I think she wants to see where the fame will go. And I am excited about the TV movies that will be coming our way. I don`t care -- I heard lifetime say, no, we wouldn`t touch it. They`ll touch it.
And then, they can do it just like Amy Fisher where you have her perspective, the parents` perspective, and then, and the media perspective and you do three different movies and Alyssa gets to play, Alyssa Milano. She can play her.
RICHARDS: Jennifer Love Hewitt.
MCDONALD: Jennifer Love Hewitt.
PINSKY: I think, probably pretty good. I`m going to ask you, Kyle. Do you think it`s likely she`ll get a reality show, because you know how rowdy producers swarm around stuff like this?
RICHARDS: Oh, my God. Well, I know that they can be, you know, bottom feeders. I really don`t think anybody is going to be giving her.
MCDONALD: She`s so unlikable. I don`t think she can do a reality --
HOWARD: Exactly. She`s tainted goods, and I don`t think any producer will go near it. Jerry Springer`s people made a candid offer to her for $1 million. They denied it, but the backlash was so intense.
MCDONALD: Vivid make it offer and then retract it. So, admitting is like, hey, we`re a classy operation, sorry.
PINSKY: Well, it`s funny. We had that little footage of her going out to commercial where she said, I`m not going to give the media anything. We all laughed out loud when we saw that.
KAELIN: She`s going to get the one interview and take the money because she`ll never get anything after that.
HOWARD: I don`t think she`ll get that. I don`t think she`ll get that.
PINSKY: Kyle, what`s that?
RICHARDS: I think she`s going to have her plastic surgery and move to L.A. and then walk it around town.
PINSKY: Dylan, do you think there`s like to be a movie made?
HOWARD: I think there will be a movie made, but that the genre of it will be such that it will be outrageous. People will expect outrage.
PINSKY: So, it will generate more outrage --
HOWARD: Yes. I don`t think any organization could be sympathetic to her because the public backlash would be too intense.
KAELIN: And without her involvement, they can do a film.
PINSKY: I think that`s right.
RICHARDS: On Twitter, people keep saying over and over, please, do not buy any magazines she`s in.
PINSKY: You know, Heather does a pretty good Casey.
MCDONALD: Oh, I was just doing one. It`s just like, what about me? I am in jail. What about me? No one will listen to me.
KAELIN: Dylan does, too.
PINSKY: Dylan, let`s see yours. All right. We`ll get it later.
HOWARD: The silent treatment.
KAELIN: That`s another story to cover --
PINSKY: No, that`s for a later day.
PINSKY: The male genital mutilations that occurred in Los Angeles.
KAELIN: Yes. Whatever happened to styling treatment.
PINSKY: Right. Exactly. If you will get more aggressive -- which is really what this is all going about, guys, just sort of bring this all back home is that, we are, I think, we`re at a time in this country where there`s a lot of frustration, a lot of economic stress, and people are very focused on things to vent their aggression, and this is where we have put it.
So, thank you all for joining me. Good panel. Hope to have you back. Tomorrow, Beth Holloway, Rusty Yates, and Ed Smart weigh in on the Casey Anthony story. I want to thank you all for watching tonight.