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Casey Anthony Fights Back; Real `Zanny the Nanny` Sues Casey Anthony; How America Views Casey
Aired July 15, 2011 - 21:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: So here we go.
Casey Anthony fights back. Just hours before she is free to walk, she`s out to clear her name. Really?
Then, the psychologist who evaluated her is back with me. I cannot wait to get into that conversation.
And could it be -- could it just be that Casey isn`t the monster she`s been made out to be? Let`s go figure this out.
Casey Anthony gets out of jail on Sunday, but she, in fact, probably never will be free. Offers of all kinds are going to pour in, temptations will be put in front of her, photographers are going to go to the ends of the earth to take her picture. She`s going to be targeted and hounded by the haters. She`s already got other lawsuits to contend with.
I`m wondering if it`s even possible in that kind of an environment to move on and make amends. Casey is going to be a prisoner of this sorry chapter in her life for a long time.
Now, one of the things that I`m encountering on the street and on Twitter and whatnot, people are asking me, how long are we going to keep covering this case? We are going to wrap this up soon, but there are still lots of unanswered questions. I`m still trying to get to the bottom of it and figure it out.
People are still interested. So, as long as we`re looking for answers, we`re going to keep trying to get to the bottom of it. But we are going to be moving on very soon.
As far as Casey`s life goes, the likelihood is she`s going to end up in trouble again one day. I mean, people that have patterns of creating vortices and chaos in their life, they tend to do it again. Just think about O.J. Simpson and think about where he ended up. Look at that.
All right. Tonight, it was there years to the day when little Caylee was finally reported missing. Look at this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Because my next thing will be down South saying -- and we`ll have a court order to get her. If that`s the way you want to play, we`ll do it, and you`ll never --
CASEY ANTHONY, FMR. DEFENDANT: That`s not the way I want to play.
CINDY ANTHONY: Well, then you have -- no, I`m not giving you another day. I`ve given you a month.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing. We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: My daughter`s been missing for the last 31 days.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you know who has her?
CINDY ANTHONY: I know who has her. Her name is Zenaida Fernandez- Gonzalez.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who is that, the babysitter?
CINDY ANTHONY: She`s been my nanny for about a year and a half, almost two years.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: I saw my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why didn`t you call 31 days ago?
CINDY ANTHONY: I`ve been looking for her and have gone through other resources to try to find her, which was stupid.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: Well, there it is. And we know the tragic ending -- 2-year-old Caylee Anthony found dead. And her mom, Casey Anthony, ultimately found not guilty of murder.
But Casey was found guilty of lying to investigators. In fact, that`s the only thing I`ve ever known for sure about Casey. I`ve read the transcripts. She lies, and she lied to those investigators with uncanny ability.
But there`s breaking news tonight. Casey`s attorney -- get this -- filed appeals this morning for all four of the lying to law enforcement convictions.
Listen to this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Days before Casey Anthony is to be released from jail, her lawyers make a shocking move.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jaw-dropping moves. What they`re appealing now, the four convictions on lying to cops.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you as floored as I am by the audacity of the defense to file an appeal? I mean, they admitted it. They used it as part of their defense.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony`s lawyers were in court this morning dealing with a defamation lawsuit brought by Zenaida Gonzalez.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Casey Anthony will be released from this jail on Sunday, as early as 12:01 a.m. The sheriff`s office is allowing two news photographers to videotape and take still photos of her leaving.
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION," TRUTV: Do you think that Casey will be able to be safe wherever she goes?
PINSKY: That`s right. She`s almost a free woman. And just three journalists will catch her release on camera.
What will we see?
Straight to my guests. I have criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh, Lisa Bloom, attorney, also a best-selling author of the book "Think."
Lisa, what do you think she will do next?
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: I think she`s going to get out and re-offend. I really do.
PINSKY: Will she?
BLOOM: I don`t think she`s grown. I don`t think she`s learned anything. And frankly, when you`re in jail or when you`re in prison, you rarely get any kind of counseling or any help. So why would she? She seems to be the same old Casey we`ve seen for years.
PINSKY: And later in the show tonight I`m going to be talking to the psychologist that did various psychological testing on her and spent over 20 hours with her. I can`t wait to get to that guy.
I found out something more about that today. He reported she had at least six seizures in jail. What?
BLOOM: Wow. Epileptic seizures?
PINSKY: Yes. Well, maybe fictitious seizures. I don`t know what kind of seizures.
BLOOM: Oh my goodness.
PINSKY: Yes. So there`s a lot more to this story.
But listen, I want to give a little nod to my friend Keith Ablow, who wrote a similar commentary to what I want to share with you right now. Based on Casey`s past behavior, what do you think the first thing she will do when she gets out of jail?
Mark, I want to ask you and Lisa. I`m taking a poll here.
A, go out partying and drinking; B, find a new boyfriend or sexual partner; C, hire an agent to broker movie deals and Internet deals; or D, disappear and perhaps go get the therapy that she clearly needs not just because of the loss of her daughter, but there`s all these allegations of sexual abuse, if that really occurred.
Mark, those are your choices. A, B, C, or D?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`ll go with C because this is the only chance for her to make any real money on that big interview that she`s going to give, which, no matter how you think about her, we`re going to be watching. People are going to say -- publicly they won`t, but when that comes on the screen, people are going to be watching. And the advertisers know we`re going to be watching or reading the story in that rag. And they`re going to make money off of it.
So, yes, I think C. She`s going to have to broker a deal for herself.
PINSKY: And Lisa, my understanding is one of the reasons they`re filing an appeal of those lying convictions is to try to stay off the civil cases, and also maybe to get her to avoid some of the costs of the investigation.
Is that right?
BLOOM: Right. It gives her a lot of legal ground in the civil depositions to claim the Fifth Amendment, to not answer questions, because the criminal side is then still pending. It`s up on appeal. Therefore, I shouldn`t have to answer questions --
PINSKY: That`s frustrating.
BLOOM: -- until all the appeals are exhausted. She can claim the Fifth Amendment. That`s how long.
PINSKY: Mark, is that how you`d advise your clients if you were the defense attorney? And how long would this get held up on the appeals?
EIGLARSH: Listen, I would answer your question directly, but I seem to nauseate you every time I give you any insight into the system.
EIGLARSH: So, if you want -- first of all, I brought a gift for you.
PINSKY: But Mark, hold on. I`m going to stop you.
EIGLARSH: Just in case for you, Drew.
PINSKY: Stop. I don`t feel like I`m doing my show unless I feel nauseated, so go ahead. It`s time.
BLOOM: You can do it, Mark.
PINSKY: Oh, thank you. A little Pepto-Bismol.
EIGLARSH: Yes. Again, if I`ve given you an ulcer -- apparently, you can`t take this, but you know this. You`re a doctor.
Let me tell you, the law here in Florida allows her and every defendant, even those who you might suspect have gotten away with murder, to appeal their convictions. And in this case, while I agree with Lisa, I think that it`s calculated to assist in her civil case, her lawyers also made some arguments in front of Judge Perry that she should have been convicted for each of the four counts.
In other words, their argument is to the appellate court, if she lies a hundred times, what, should she get a hundred years in jail? And change it to someone else.
And their argument is there should have been just one conviction for the one lying episode, and that potentially could be an argument on appeal. And so she has a right. Everyone does. And even if you get a tattoo on the back of your shoulder, "The Beautiful Life," after your daughter just died, you`re still allowed to have that appellate right here in Florida.
PINSKY: Mark, I need the Pepto-Bismol right now.
EIGLARSH: You`ve got it. Brother, you`ve got it. Go ahead.
PINSKY: Right now. Thank you. OK.
EIGLARSH: You can`t handle the truth. That`s the problem.
PINSKY: I`m not an attorney.
She`s appealing the lying conviction, but her web of lies have all been caught on tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: I, as a mom, I know in my gut. There`s a feeling as a parent. You know certain things about your child. You can feel that connection. And I still have that feeling, that presence. I know that she`s alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: You know, we like joking around with our guests, but hearing those lies and remembering this is about a 2-year-old girl who died, it just brings you crashing right back down to earth. Is she lying not just about that, but about the sexual abuse? And is that perhaps why she`s not welcomed home?
BLOOM: Well, the four counts that she`s convicted of -- and they are four separate lies, and that`s going to be upheld -- are lying to the police during the time that Caylee was missing and police were looking for her. So I think that`s going to be upheld on appeal. It`s just a matter of time.
This is just a tactic to give her an advantage in the civil case. And by the way, Jose Baez, in court, in the trial, admitted that she lied, right?
PINSKY: It was part of his defense.
BLOOM: He had an explanation, but all along the defense admitted that she lied. So this appeal is going nowhere.
EIGLARSH: The main reason why I agree with Lisa -- go ahead. Yes?
PINSKY: Mark, finish. Please, go right ahead.
EIGLARSH: Well, I was just going to say --
BLOOM: Especially if you`re agreeing with me.
EIGLARSH: I agree with Lisa. Her book is fabulous, first of all.
But secondly, the appellate court consists of three judges there in Orange County who will be named by the media if they dare to reverse the conviction. So I`m sure that they`re going to uphold it even if it`s questionable.
PINSKY: I`m glad I held us up for that comment. Well done.
Coming up, new tonight, a hearing held today with the real Zenaida Gonzalez. We`ll talk to her attorney in just a few minutes. Why did Casey lie for months about leaving her daughter with a fantasy woman named Zanny the nanny?
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- and you don`t want anyone to find out because you think you`re a bad mom, or something happened to Caylee and Caylee is buried somewhere, or in a trash can somewhere, and you had something to do with it, either way right now is not a very pretty picture.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Not a very pretty picture, indeed. However, I`m feeling a little better after Bismol that he gave me.
Tonight, Casey Anthony appeals her convictions of four counts of lying to police. The only thing we know for sure about her that she did.
Plus, the real Zanny the nanny sues.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZENAIDA GONZALEZ, SUING CASEY ANTHONY: My thought was, I`m going to lose my children. Because if they`re accusing me of kidnapping, what`s the first thing they`re going to do? (INAUDIBLE), and they`re going to want to investigate your children. If I`m a good mother, why do I need to go through that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I am back with attorneys Mark Eiglarsh and Lisa Bloom. Also joining me via phone is Matt Morgan. He is the attorney for Zenaida Gonzalez, the real Zenaida Gonzalez.
Now, Matt, tell us, if you would, what does Zenaida hope to get out of all this?
MATT MORGAN, ZENAIDA GONZALEZ` ATTORNEY: Dr. Drew, at the end of the day, all Zenaida is looking for is justice. And she, at this time, wants her name to be removed from this case. And I feel like that`s happened. And the second deal is to get compensated for having to go through this entire mess.
PINSKY: Is she asking for some sort of compensation? I mean, it wasn`t as though years of her life were taken away. It was a relatively short period of time, was it not?
MORGAN: It was a short period of time, but it was a short period of time during one of the largest media frenzies in the history of our country. And her name was at the forefront of that frenzy.
And so her name was blasted throughout the world as somebody that had an affiliation and connection to a kidnapping. So I don`t know what type of price tag you can put on that type of defamation, but the court will figure that out.
BLOOM: And of course she`ll have to prove those damages. But does anyone really believe that Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez had anything to do with little Caylee`s disappearance?
MORGAN: You know, at the time they did. At the time they did believe that she had something to do with it.
PINSKY: And are there specific incidents that helps us understand exactly what kind of liability she incurred through this?
MORGAN: Specific instances in which way?
PINSKY: I mean, did somebody hit her? Did somebody drive her off the road? Did somebody refuse her to come into a restaurant?
MORGAN: People threatened her life on numerous occasions. She had to pretty much retreat and not leave her home for a period of time. And so we feel that she`s entitled to some form of compensation for having to go through that.
PINSKY: Lisa, who pays that?
BLOOM: Casey Anthony pays that, ultimately --
PINSKY: Casey Anthony pays that?
BLOOM: -- if they get a judgment against her. And you know what? She`s going to have money now because she may get a million-dollar interview. So, all of a sudden, there`s somebody worth suing if it`s just all about the money.
PINSKY: And Mark, I think you wanted to ring in here.
EIGLARSH: Yes. I don`t see this lawsuit going anywhere.
You know, ultimately, as Lisa said, there`s not a single person who believes that she really had anything to do with it. Yes, she went through hell back in the day. But, ultimately, the civil system is about providing compensation for really what she`s gone through, but where she`s at.
And where she`s at, arguably, is elevated. I mean, if anything, people feel sorry for what she went through. And I just don`t see anyone giving her more than a buck in the civil system if she even prevails.
PINSKY: Matt, do you have a response to that?
MORGAN: Mark, I`d have to wholeheartedly disagree with you on that point.
EIGLARSH: You can.
MORGAN: But I will let the court system and I`ll let our lawyers prove you wrong on that. But how do you put a price tag on the world thinking that you have some kind of involvement in one of the most --
EIGLARSH: Wasn`t that rectified fairly quickly? And isn`t it now very clear that she had absolutely nothing to do with this? So where is the true permanent injury here?
And listen, I hope that she gets all the money that Casey makes, because she went through hell. I understand that. But isn`t this just a very extraordinary challenge?
MORGAN: You`re saying it yourself, Mark. She went through hell. You know? What kind of a price tag do you put on that type of hell?
BLOOM: Hey, Mark, I`ve got a question for you. How are you going to get Casey Anthony`s deposition? You`ve got her appealing on the criminal side. You`ve got law enforcement probably hiding her identity, putting her in undisclosed locations. How are you going to get her to sit down and answer questions?
EIGLARSH: Well, eventually, she`s going to have to. And I don`t think law enforcement is going to hide this woman. I don`t think that`s going to happen.
MORGAN: Yes. And at this point, we`re very happy. We did have the judge set a date for the deposition. So we`re very happy about that.
PINSKY: Well, Matt, thank you very much for joining us. I appreciate the report.
And I want to go on to a story about an Oklahoma woman who says she was attacked because she looks like Casey Anthony. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I got to her, she was crying, she was shaking. She said, "Mama, this lady thinks I`m Casey Anthony. She tried to kill me."
SAMMAY BLACKWELL, VICTIM: She said that I was trying to hurt babies, I was killing babies, and she was going to stop it before it happened again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And you know what she did? She drove that woman`s car off the road and caused it to flip twice. This woman had to fake death. I mean, that`s the kind of energy we`ve got going out there.
BLOOM: And that gives you a little preview of what Casey Anthony is going to be facing.
PINSKY: That`s right.
BLOOM: The real Casey Anthony when she gets out.
PINSKY: So my question is, whose responsibility is it to protect Casey, if anyone? And if somebody takes that responsibility, are the taxpayers going to have to pay for it? And for how long?
BLOOM: Yes. And get this -- it`s local law enforcement that has to protect her if there`s a known threat. And they do know at least at this point she`s being threatened.
This is the same local law enforcement agency that had seven investigators last week do a press conference saying they thought she was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. They think she`s a liar. Now they have to protect her, and they have to assess that risk every day to see how dangerous that risk is.
EIGLARSH: I`m going to disagree.
PINSKY: Although, Mark, hold on a second. I see a reality show here. It`s Yuri Melich and Casey. We`ll follow them through their lives in Orlando. It would be awesome.
EIGLARSH: I hope not. I disagree with Lisa.
PINSKY: No, of course not.
EIGLARSH: If Casey calls 911 because there`s a credible threat at that moment, then, yes, law enforcement --
PINSKY: This is that time.
EIGLARSH: No, but they do not have to spend any additional resources to surround her and protect her. And they`ve actually said they`re not going to.
BLOOM: If she`s being threatened -- and you know she`s getting death threats. You know she is. They do have to protect her.
EIGLARSH: Well, I don`t think that they have to devote resources to create a barrier around her and have 24-hour surveillance on her. That`s not acceptable. I don`t agree with that.
BLOOM: It has to be commensurate with the threat. Look, if she gets out and, God forbid, she gets injured or killed, that`s on local law enforcement for failing to protect her.
PINSKY: One more thing. Casey`s attorney filed a motion claiming Casey is broke and unable to pay the costs of not only the protection that she needs, but her case.
Now, we know she was broke before the case -- before she went to jail, rather. Remember this video we`re watching right now? Casey was caught buying clothes, lingerie, and beer with stolen checks while Caylee was missing.
But, Mark Eiglarsh, if she makes a bunch of money on interviews, will she have to hand over the check to cover the Zenaida Gonzalez case, the investigation, and her own protection? Is all that going to the local authorities?
EIGLARSH: Yes, yes, and yes. But as of right now, as much as it`s going to make you ill, she filled out a financial affidavit indicating that she has no funds. And she`s already been declared indigent. She hasn`t gotten any more money since she`s been in.
So, technically, legally, as much as this makes you ill, she is indigent for costs and we pick up the tab right now.
PINSKY: Thanks, Mark.
Your questions and comments about Casey next.
And later, he`s back. This I`m looking forward to. The psychologist who spent 20 hours evaluating Casey, he returns. And I`ve got some questions for this guy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. HARRY KROP, PSYCHOLOGIST: One of the reasons that Casey actually authorized me to go public with the results of my evaluation was because she wanted it known to the public, both the good and the bad of Casey.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Dr. Harry Krop will be with us in just a few minutes. I`ve got questions for that boy.
Just two days until Casey Anthony is released from prison. So let`s hear what you`re saying about it.
Brad is on the line from Atlanta.
What`s the question?
BRAD, ATLANTA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
Does it not appear to you in part that Casey suffers from histrionic personality disorder?
PINSKY: Well, it`s funny you would say that. In my experience, when I`ve dealt with patients that are just recalcitrant liars, where reality begs no alternative to their lies, they have had histrionic traits. And that`s interesting you would bring that up.
But again, we`re speculating about somebody I have no contact with. And we`re going to hear from Dr. Krop in a minute about these issues, so we`ll see what he has to say.
Deborah in California is next.
What`s up, Deborah?
DEBORAH, CALIFORNIA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
DEBORAH: Is it possible that Casey will stop lying once she`s away from her family? Or is it true, once a liar, always a liar?
PINSKY: You know, it depends on whether she has some sort of addiction or personality disorder. People with personality disorders lie chronically as a part of that disorder.
We`re going to talk to Dr. Krop in a few minutes about the nature of lying. Pathological lying doesn`t exist as an isolated phenomenon. It exists in the context of other conditions like addiction, like personality disorders.
Now, if she had just a reason to lie, and she was a criminal just trying to protect herself, a little more sinister. And people who are just criminals do that, too. So we don`t know for sure.
Crystal sent us this e-mail. She wants to know, "Is all the backlash we are seeing with this case a result of the unresolved trauma people have in their own lives?"
Well, for some people, I`m sure that`s true. The thing about Casey is, there is so much unknown, there`s so much of a blank slate there for us to paint our own issues upon as she sits there in court without reacting emotionally. We pour and project our own issues into her. And the fact is we live in a time when there`s a lot of aggression and a lot of frustration with the economy being so bad, so this is a place for us to focus our own aggression.
Another e-mail -- Coty, I think the name is, says, "Is Casey`s behavior a disconnect with Caylee, something you see in killers toward their victims?"
Well, of course, when people are capable of something such as murder, they have to have that disconnect. They can`t empathize in those moments or they couldn`t engage in those kinds of horrible acts. Or they have high levels of arousal, and all kinds of disgusting, depraved things can go into the drive and desire to do these things. Not suggesting that`s the case here with Casey, but generally that`s the case.
A Facebook question from Judi. "People say Casey is immature, but none of her friends or boyfriends noticed this behavior. Is that odd?"
Well, you know, you do hear people complaining about her immaturity and her lack of follow-through and inability to get through high school. So that is the kind of thing. It may not have been articulated as immaturity, but certainly the people that I`ve talked to that knew her did complain about her lack of accountability and her seeming inability to live up to the usual commitments of adulthood.
Next, round two of my discussion with forensic psychologist Harry Krop. He evaluated Casey behind bars. He believes she doesn`t have any mental health issues that are diagnosable, per se.
You don`t want to miss this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, ACCUSED OF KILLING HER DAUGHTER: I`m sitting in jail. There`s nothing anybody can do right now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, how come everybody`s saying you`re lying?
CASEY ANTHONY: Because nobody is (EXPLETIVE DELETED) listening to anything that I`m saying. The media completely misconstrued everything that I`ve said. The (EXPLETIVE DELETED) detectives told them to (EXPLETIVE DELETED). They got all of their information from me, yet at the same time, they`re twisting stuff. They`re already said they`re going to pin this on me if they don`t find Caylee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Tonight, Casey gets out of jail on Sunday. Now is a lying par of this killer about to be set free? Or is the woman found not guilty of murder just immature and misunderstood? Forensic psychologist who actually evaluated Casey spent over 20 hours with her. He`s back with us. Now, remember, he thinks Casey does not have mental health issues. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: We never really got a full description of Zanny. I know she`s got brown curly hair.
CASEY ANTHONY: About shoulder length. She wears it straight.
CINDY ANTHONY: It`s curly?
CASEY ANTHONY: It`s curly, but she also wears it straight. I`m telling you, it`s called a straightener.
CINDY ANTHONY: How tall is she?
CASEY ANTHONY: About 5`7"ish, very thin, brown eyes, no tattoos that I`ve ever seen, that known of. I`ve seen her in a bathing suit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, in retrospect, it`s rather stunning to hear her lie with such care and accuracy. Dr. Harry Krop is here. Welcome. And I want to remind my viewers what he told us about Casey`s mental state. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Do you believe that she had significant mental illness?
HARRY KROP, PSYCHOLOGIST, EVALUATED CASEY ANTHONY: I do not believe based on all of my interactions with her as well as the psychological testing. I don`t believe that she has any diagnosable mental illness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. Now, Dr. Krop, my viewers really reacted to that interview. One of the things they were skeptical about was whether or not your opinion was somehow adulterated by who you were working for, it`s the legal system after all. Are you hired by the defense? Are you hired by the courts? Do you work for somebody? Or is this purely an objective opinion?
KROP: Well, as a forensic psychologist, I have ethics to be as objective as I can to give the opinions that are based on data, and who I get paid for is irrelevant to my opinions. I am not paid by the defense. I`m not paid by the state attorney`s office. The state of Florida is responsible for, eventually, paying my bill pursuant to a court order by Judge Perry.
KROP: So, I don`t feel like my opinions are paid for.
KROP: Although, I have to say, Dr. Drew, I have to say if I can just finish, after our show the other day, I received probably about ten phone calls which I would consider hate phone calls. So, I just couldn`t wait to get back and talk to you again.
PINSKY: That is certainly not my intent. And people, come on, now. I mean, this is a psychologist hired by the court to do his job. Let`s just hear what he has to say and let`s draw our own conclusions about this. Now, one of the tests that you administered was the MMPI personality inventory scale, correct?
KROP: That`s correct.
PINSKY: And with that, it`s a very comprehensive personality profile. Again, with these two doctors talking, so I`m going to try to keep the viewers with us here on this and explain things as we go along. But one of the things that`s sort of built into these tests is these things called validity scales. People can manipulate the test.
There`s an L scale for lying. People try and percept themselves from the best light. There is an F scale or faking or attempts of faking good or bad, and there is a K scale which is sort of defensiveness or more subtle, and should people showing -- trying to present themselves in the best way possible. These things come through on the tests. How did Casey score on these validity scales?
KROP: Absolutely within normal limits. All validity scales were within normal limits. There was no evidence of what we call positive or negative impression management. The only scale that was elevated on the entire MMPI 2 was what we refer to as the MF scale which, basically, for a female suggests a person who has masculine type interests such athletics, which is consistent with Casey`s history especially in high school. She was a really good athlete, but everything -- every scale was within normal limits on that test.
PINSKY: All right. Dr. Krop, you know, my peers are calling me. Everybody -- it`s amazing how many people have opinions about this case, and everyone that -- the psychologist, psychiatrist that I know that`s calling me or sort of ringing in, everyone has the same kind of opinion that how could she not be on what`s called a cluster B scale which are the sort of narcissistic and borderline disorders or there be some sort of cognitive or neuro-developmental problem?
My understanding is she actually had seizures in jail, is that right? And the question on the heels of that is, how can we be so wrong? How can we look at those things and just be professionals be so far off based on what we think we`re seeing here?
KROP: Well, let me go back to the first issue, the one where when we talked the other day, I talked about no personality disorder, which I still stick to as far as all the data, but you asked me about personality traits, and one of the qualities of a forensic psychologist, hopefully, is a willingness to revisit certain issues if there is a question.
And after you and I spoke, I did research. I went back to the data. I went back to al the interviews. I looked at the tapes, the depositions, and I would say that, again, not diagnosing her as a personality disorder, but certainly, I would agree that Casey does have narcissistic traits. And for your viewers, basically, that`s a person who is very self-centered and --
PINSKY: Well, actually, I have a list. I put up a list right now of narcissistic traits if the control room can help me out here. Not the psychopathic one. I want the narcissistic disorders. There we go. Here are some traits that are actually in DSM-IVR, has a grandiose sense of self-important, preoccupied with fantasies about power and what not -- keep going.
There should be more here on our scale. Arrogant, haughty behaviors towards others, lacks empathy and is unwilling to identify with the needs of others, particularly, in certain situations. And that kind of fits, right?
KROP: I would agree with that, especially three years ago, when all of this was going on. I would certainly agree that those traits would have existed in Casey.
PINSKY: OK. And the other thing is the lying. And this is the only thing that we all know, really, for sure was happening. There was horrible, wild lying going on. Lying doesn`t exist in a vacuum. There`s no such thing -- there`s no diagnosis as pathological lying. It goes with other disorders. Is this part of her narcissistic disorder or are there something called borderline traits here too?
KROP: I don`t think there are borderline traits. Let me go back to the lying issue, because you and I also discussed that the other day. I went ahead and did extensive research on different types of lying, and I`m going to be a little hesitant here to be specific with regard to Casey, because I learned, actually from listening to your show before I came on the air about the lawsuits and they have to do -- rather the appellate issues having to do with her lying.
So, I`m not going to be specific to Casey about lying, but the research I did shows that there`s three kinds of lying. One is pathological lying, and that`s not a diagnosis. It`s not in the DSM. The second type of lying is, I guess, what we call ordinary lying, and then, the third type of lying is what we would call chronic or rather obsessive- type of lying or habitual lying.
I`ll let you or your panel or the viewers determine as far as it applies to Casey, but pathological lying is just as the word sounds. It`s very pathological. It`s an individual who has pretty much a life-long, very frequent, and repeated lies, often, and usually, without any particular motive, without any either psychological motive or external motive, and often, the person doesn`t even admit or recognize him or herself that they`re lying.
KROP: The other thing about -- go ahead.
PINSKY: I was saying -- when it gets severe, it`s in history on (ph), it can borderline situations where they really, I don`t believe -- reality sort of begs no issue. They just lie, and they kind of don`t process it normally. They sort of believe the lies in many respects. But let me ask you this. You had worked for Judge Perry before, is that right?
KROP: Yes. Sort of an irony. I`ve done, I mentioned the other day, over 2,000 death penalty cases, first degree murder case. The very first one that I ever testified in was in the late 1970s, early 1980s. It happened to be Orlando. Judge Perry happened to be the prosecutor in that case. He actually, when we spoke the other day, he remembered the case. He remembered the experts. He remembered everything about the case.
We`re talking a long time ago, but the sort of the twist of it is that, as a prosecutor, that was my first case as a defense expert. And he destroyed me on cross examination. It was humiliating. It was embarrassing. And I remember leaving the courtroom in Orlando telling myself I had two choices. One, never do one of these cases again, or two, never let this happen to me again.
And I told Judge Perry the other day that he was really inspiration in motivating me to not let it happen the way he did it to me. So, I`ve been a little better prepared when I go to court. So, yes, it was nice seeing Judge Perry again, even though, I didn`t have to testify this time.
PINSKY: Let me do one little piece of cross examination myself before I let you go here. And that is your jobs to go in there and kind of empathize with these people who are facing death penalties. I mean, that`s your job. Get in their head and sort of understand it and empathize with it.
Do you think it`s possible that you`ve gone too far with Casey to see her point of view? That`s she`s manipulated you, and you`ve identified so strongly with her that, perhaps, it`s colored some of what you`re saying to us today?
KROP: Dr. Drew, with all due respect, I don`t agree with you at all with regard to the empathy. I`ve listened to people like Aileen Wuornos and Danny Rolling in Florida and I have listened and tried to be as unemotional as I can listening to their stories. I don`t think -- could somebody like Casey pull the wool over my eyes? Sure. But, I really don`t think that happened.
I`m looking at the data. I came in pretty late in the case. Casey has been nothing but professional in her action with me. Somebody, one of the blogs talked about her being flirtatious and probably flirtatious with all the men, Jose, and cheney, and myself. I never had any of that. Do I empathize with her situation?
We`re talking a about the life here and the death of a two-year-old girl. That`s who I empathize with. I feel that - although, I certainly admit that I can be fooled. I`m sure I`ve been fooled several times, but I don`t believe that Casey has fooled me.
PINSKY: Well, thank you, Dr. Krop. You know, as someone myself who deals with patients that lie and manipulate, I often get fooled and I just come to expect that, but you do have some hard data, and thank you for sharing that with us, and I appreciate you coming back. I do. Thank you.
KROP: Thank you.
PINSKY: Now, my question is, do we have tunnel vision when it comes to Casey? Could she be a thousand percent different than say we think she is? I`m certainly trying to get to the bottom of that.
A mother accused of killing a baby is jailed for more than a decade, but she was innocent. She is going to be with us and help us understand how we view Casey.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STACEY LANNERT, RELEASED FROM PRISON IN 2009: You can`t harbor resentment and be free. Even while incarcerated that`s not freedom. I found freedom from my past. So, now, I have physical freedom, and you know, God`s blessed me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: As we try to figure out who Casey really is, many of you have made up your mind that she is a killer despite having been found not guilty of murder. So, does a mob mentality form our opinions? Does our view of Casey reflect reality? I have two women who were convicted of murder, and they join us here today. While their crimes are quite different, they know something we don`t, and this may help us understand why we can`t figure Casey out. Perhaps, we know nothing at all.
Stacey Lannert was 18 when she shot and killed her father. She is now author of a book called "Redemption." Audrey Edmunds spent 11 years in jail for a crime she did not commit. She did not kill a baby but was tried and convicted in a court of law and the court of public opinion. Lisa Bloom is back with us. She, of course, is an attorney and author of "Think: Straight Talk for Women." Now, Audrey, you were actually by the public as kind of a monster the way Casey was, right?
AUDREY EDMUNDS, MURDER CONVICTION OVERTURNED: Very much so,
PINSKY: Very much. And yet, you knew you had done nothing.
EDMUNDS: Correct. That`s correct.
PINSKY: Did the public -- how did you live through that? How did you come out in either side? Do you think Casey is going through anything like that?
EDMUNDS: She could be. I was very, very fortunate that even though I was charged with a terrible, horrific crime, and the trial was very harsh on me, I was supported by many, many good people. I had lots of friends, family, and relatives that still stood by me.
PINSKY: Now, in Casey`s case, she`s pretty much alone.
EDMUNDS: She is.
PINSKY: How do you feel about her case? What do you think?
EDMUNDS: I don`t know. She only knows. She`s been given a lot of grace to be get out on Sunday, and --
PINSKY: Because you went to jail.
EDMUNDS: I did for almost 11 years. Yes.
PINSKY: Eleven years in jail for something you did not commit?
PINSKY: And then you were -- it was comminuted, at some point.
EDMUNDS: Yes. A lot of new medical and scientific evidence was brought back in 2007 through the Wisconsin Innocence Project, and then, I was released in 2008.
PINSKY: Now, I want to go out to Stacey, considering that prevailing negative view of Casey, had she been found guilty? How do you think she might have been received by her fellow inmates?
LANNERT: I think she would have had a very rough time during incarceration, unless, she was segregated and kept away from general population.
PINSKY: Now, Stacey, you actually did commit murder, is that correct?
PINSKY: And you were also the object of public scrutiny and some disgrace and whatnot. And you`d done something bad. Tell us about that journey. I mean, if we assume Casey is guilty and just got away with it, so to speak, what is she going through?
LANNERT: Well, for me it was quite the opposite. I was incarcerated and had a life without parole sentence. I shot my abusive father. And the public didn`t really understand how I could have wound up with life without parole. So, there was a huge shift actually for my release. And the public was wonderful in supporting me throughout that. And even once I was released, the public was very vocal about them being glad that I was free.
PINSKY: Well, so, Stacey, that fascinates me, because you are the precise then converse of Casey. You actually had an abusive father. You didn`t just accuse somebody of being abusive. You did something, we don`t know whether Casey did or didn`t, and you were convicted.
PINSKY: What do you think Casey is going through? Or what is your opinion of this case?
LANNERT: I think that we`ll never know, honestly. And a wise friend recently told me that people don`t lie, unless, they have a reason to lie. And so, I think that her four charges for lying to the police, there`s a reason behind it. And I think that like the other lady said, by the grace of God, she`s lucky that she`s not finding herself in prison.
PINSKY: Lisa, you`re nodding your head vigorously there.
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY AND AUTHOR: You know, this is so interesting to me, Dr. Drew. I`m so glad you`re doing this segment, because what Stacey and Audrey`s story show us that we don`t know. We can`t entirely know. And all of us who just want to throw the book at Casey and people who want to go after her notwithstanding the jury`s verdict, you just can`t, because we can`t know. Even if someone is convicted, if they are acquitted, still, we just may not ever know.
PINSKY: Well, that`s what really prompts me to continue looking into this, because I`m so confused and trying to figure out. This kind of (ph) the way was something that helps me feel like I connect -- things kind of make sense, at least, and we`re nowhere near that with Casey.
BLOOM: At times, you have to be able to sit without doubt, without lack of certainty and just live like that.
PINSKY: I suspect you`re right. As we move on from this case, that is what will happen.
My guests are going to stay with me. Next is our view of Casey based on a gang or mob mentality? Is it far from reality or did her lies fate her to become the most hated woman in America?
PINSKY: We are talking about Casey Anthony who will be out of jail Sunday. She`ll have a lot to think about this weekend. Freedom, and freedom means facing a nation where some have called her the most hated women in America. So, tonight, we need to understand that Casey could possibly be different from what we think we know.
Back with us, Stacey Lannert. She was 18 when she shot and killed her father. Her sentenced was commuted. She is also the author of "Redemption." Audrey Edmunds spent 11 years in jail for a crime she did not commit, killing a child. And Lisa Bloom is an attorney and author of "Think."
Now, Audrey, people saw you as a monster. Do you think there are similarities between you and Casey? And what`s your opinion on Casey?
EDMUNDS: Well, I think Casey is very, very fortunate to beginning out as soon as she is. I think it`s great that the jury followed the rules and how it is outlined as to what can and cannot be proven.
PINSKY: So, even though, you are the subject of dysfunction in our system, and part of your life was taken and you were taken away from your children, you still back the system? Is that what you`re saying?
EDMUNDS: Yes. I`d back it for doing right. and when they`ve done wrong in my case, then, they need to be accountable for those wrong.
PINSKY: How do you get over that?
EDMUNDS: Just keep fighting for what`s right, and I`m very, very grateful for those that do, and there are many of them.
PINSKY: Interesting. Stacey, and you, your opinion on Casey. Do you think she did it?
LANNERT: I think that I`ll never know. I really will never know, but I think that lying is extremely significant. And I have found that when you`re honest, you can pretty much handle anything. And, I think --
PINSKY: Well, now, you were -- I`m going to interrupt you because we have a very short time with you, guys. You were an abuse survivor.
PINSKY: And I imagine, you had a period in your life where there was chaos and were you lied, do you think that`s where all that`s coming from in Casey? Do you think these allegations of abuse by whomever are somehow valid?
LANNERT: Not in this situation, because this crime was committed against the child, not against someone who abused her.
PINSKY: And do you, as an abuse survivor, have any sense this defense of her behavior during this those 31 days when the child was missing that that explains the behavior?
LANNERT: No. Absolutely not.
LANNERT: I think we`re all accountable for our actions. And no.
PINSKY: And you think Casey is going to, somehow, be held accountable in some other way, perhaps, in this system?
LANNERT: Yes. I do. Yes. I do think that she will be. And even if she`s not held accountable by our justice system, I think that, in the end, she`ll be accountable to a higher power.
PINSKY: And again, Lisa, you`re shaking your head. Audrey you`re shaking your head.
BLOOM: That`s something that you hear a lot from people who have had trouble in the criminal justice system like Audrey and like Stacey, but there`s going to be a final accountability somewhere. Maybe not here, but somewhere, and that there are higher values like honesty and integrity.
PINSKY: I think it`s a great place to stop, and, if somehow she`s being unjustly accused just as you were, there is redemption and there is forgiveness out there.
PINSKY: Thank you, Stacey. Thank you, Audrey. Thank you, Lisa, as always. I`m going to ask you all stay tuned to HLN all weekend for live breaking Casey Anthony coverage. Of course, she`s getting of jail on Sunday, and we will be covering it.
An interesting conversation tonight. I hope you all learn some thing and made sense of things. I want to thank you all for watching, and we will see you next time.