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ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL
Casey Anthony`s Final Hours in Jail; Casey Anthony Appealing Lying Convictions
Aired July 15, 2011 - 19:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): We have more breaking news swirling around the Casey Anthony saga. Get this: Jose Baez now wants his client`s slate wiped clean. In a shocking move, Casey and company appeal the four guilty counts of lying to cops.
Plus, Zanny the nanny takes her defamation case against Casey to court.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The question that I want to ask her is why did you choose this woman to destroy her life?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And will we ever know who little Caylee`s father was? Now another man is stepping forward, suggesting he could be the dad. We`re taking your calls.
ISSUES starts now.
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY`S ATTORNEY: We`re going to ask you to render a verdict of not guilty on these charges, because they` simply are not proven.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know if they were watching the same thing we were. It`s just shocking.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t believe it. I don`t even know why I`m this emotional. I have no attachment to them at all. I just can`t believe it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m in total shock. I mean, everything that`s happened. It`s basically you almost have to film and watch somebody commit a crime and have it on video for something to happen today. It`s just disturbing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice for Caylee! She was left in a swamp. Nobody there to defend her. We`re out here to say Caylee, we remember you! We will stand up for you!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not guilty? No! No!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you kidding me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What a disgrace. It`s a shame. That poor little girl.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A decade from now, hopefully she can have some stability in her life, a husband and she can be somewhere in Montana and start over. I don`t know.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good evening. I`m Jane Velez Mitchell coming to you live from Orlando, Florida. So much drama, so much breaking news.
But first, I want to tell you, my feet are soaking wet. There is a huge storm here in Orlando, 60-mile-an-hour winds, hail. We actually had to retreat from the jail where Casey Anthony is incarcerated to a nearby studio because our satellite signal went down. So there is a storm going on outside.
There is also a storm of controversy over the latest breaking news. Casey Anthony is appealing her four convictions for lying. She lied to cops about many things. Lied about having a job at Universal Studios. Lied about dropping her child off with Zanny the nanny. Lied about telling two co-workers at Universal Studios, Jeffrey Hopkins and Juliette Lewis, her child had been taken and was missing. And lied about talking to little Caylee, her daughter.
And guess what? What`s so astounding about this breaking news is that she`s appealing something that her own attorney Jose Baez admitted -- admitted to -- in his opening statement. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAEZ: What the state of Florida decided to do is then go out and spend their entire rebuttal case to prove she was a liar. I told you she was a liar the first day.
If Casey comes forward and is lying her butt off, who`s going to believe a liar? Casey was raised to lie.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`ve got some more breaking news to tell you about. And this concerns the Zenaida Gonzalez defamation suit.
Now, you might have been hearing all the drama-rama about the deposition of the law firm Morgan & Morgan that represents Zenaida Gonzalez, suing Casey Anthony. Wanted to get her on tape. Wanted to do a deposition of Casey, videotaped before she is freed this coming Sunday. And so they went to court today, saying, "We want to be able to go into the jail with a videotape camera and get her deposition before she flees to points unknown."
Well, guess what happened? The judge decided to schedule the deposition for October 8. October 8. Casey Anthony is going to be long gone. Will she show up at that deposition on October 8? Where is that deposition going to be?
So much to talk about. I want to go straight out to Matt Morgan, who is the attorney for Zenaida Gonzalez, here in Orlando.
We were supposed to be side by side, but the storm had you going to one studio location and me the other. Tell us what happened in court today.
MATT MORGAN, LAWYER FOR ZENAIDA GONZALEZ: Today, Jane, like you said, we had the hearing. At the hearing, it was determined that -- that, you know, unfortunately, we won`t be able to get Casey`s deposition until October 8.
Now, it`s fortunate in the sense that we`ve been having to sit the sidelines for the past three years waiting for the court to set a date for the deposition. But, you know, so we`re fortunate in that way but, you know, it`s unfortunate that we`re not going to be able to go to the jail and get it this weekend.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Are you disappointed? Do you think maybe you`ll never see her again, you`ll never get this depo?
MORGAN: You know -- you know, Jane. That`s the rumor out there, is that she`s going to board a plane and she`ll be gone for a period of time. But, you know, one thing that -- that, you know, I can assure America of is that Morgan & Morgan will not stop until we obtain her testimony and until justice is obtained for Zenaida.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, my understanding is that this deposition, which has been rescheduled for October 8, the judge is not saying where this deposition is going to take place. And part of that reason is because the civil attorney for Casey Anthony said that she is getting death threats, and he said that she`s gotten seven death threats. And also that he is concerned about her mental stability.
So let`s listen, first of all, to Charles Green, the civil attorney for Casey Anthony, talk about all these dramatic developments regarding this lawsuit by Zenaida Gonzalez.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLES GREEN, CIVIL ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: This civil case is not about Caylee Anthony. This is not the criminal case. I don`t deserve any credit or any blame for what happened in the criminal case. This is not a whodunit. I`m never going to answer the question about what happened to Caylee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, once again, Charles Green is saying that he is concerned about Casey Anthony`s mental state, and he, in fact, wants her to be evaluated, which, Stacey Honowitz, prosecutor, is sort of counterintuitive. We saw her waltz into court on sentencing day after she won this incredible verdict. She looked like she was going to a rock concert. Her hair was down.
But people -- human beings are not always linear. We know that her legal troubles are mounting. She owes the IRS 80 grand. She is going to be sued for the cost of the prosecution and the investigation. And there are a number of lawsuits sort of building against her.
Tim Miller of Texas EquuSearch has filed suit against her, demanding more than $100,000. You know the Zanny the nanny lawsuit that we`re just talking about. She owes that, and is being sued by them. Leonard Padilla just yesterday on our air, on ISSUES, announced that he was filing suit for more than $200,000 that he says he spent.
And now you have a new potential lawsuit by a man -- and we`re going to get to this -- Christopher Umberger next, who is incarcerated. He`s a con. And he says that he might be the father of little Caylee, and -- and he wants a paternity test. And if he is, in fact, the father he says he`s going to sue Casey Anthony for wrongful death.
Now, do you think, given all of this, that maybe Casey is having some kind of emotional meltdown behind bars?
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: I personally don`t think so. I think she probably should be just counting her lucky stars that she wasn`t put on death row or given life in prison or found guilty. I mean, these are mounting legal problems, but she had worse problems when she was in custody. These are valid lawsuits. People think they`re due and owing certain money like Tim Miller for all the investigative costs. Zenaida Gonzalez feels as though she`s got a valid defamation case.
I mean, these lawsuits are valid, and if she feels the pressure, that`s just tough. I mean, the fact of the matter is she`s coming out of custody. She was found not guilty, and these are other issues that she`s going to have to face.
And all these stall tactics, I mean, I hope they are going to able to get her back. I hope they don`t ever stop trying to find her, because once she leaves, you know, you can file all the motions in the world. It doesn`t mean that she`s going to come back and show up. And then there`s a rule to show cause against her, and then there`s sanctions.
So could she be feeling emotional and overwhelmed? Yes. Does that mean that she doesn`t have to answer to the lawsuits? Absolutely not.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jeff Brown, do you think that Morgan & Morgan will ever get her on videotape? Do you think that this deposition in October will happen? And wouldn`t she just probably take the fifth?
JEFF BROWN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s the reason that they filed the appeal. Stacey will tell you, nobody files appeals on misdemeanors when they have credit, time served. They filed the appeal so she has a valid Fifth Amendment right to object to any questions.
But if the lawyers were smart, they would just come in and admit the defamation, just come in and say, "You know what, Morgan and Morgan? You`re right. We agree to everything in your complaint. Let`s move to the second phase and discuss damages," and that`s it. That`s all she has to do is get around that. They`ll never get her under oath in a deposition. She`s never going to answer those questions.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and you bring up the other big breaking news of the evening, the fact that Casey Anthony and her attorney, Jose Baez, have filed an appeal of these four convictions for lying.
Now given, Stacey Honowitz, that Jose Baez admitted in his opening statement that it was all a lie, that the child died and drowned accidentally on June 16, the first day that she was missing, how can they possibly file suit?
HONOWITZ: Well, you can always try to appeal if you`ve been criminally convicted. That doesn`t mean that you`re going to be successful, but Jeff is 100 percent right. There`s a reason and a tactic and a strategy behind appealing a sentence where she was basically time served.
The fact of the matter is he`s right. If she goes to a deposition, because there`s something pending on appeal, she has the right at that point to take the fifth and not answer any questions.
If it even gets to the point where briefs are written on this, the transcript of his opening statement and the fact that he conceded that she was a liar certainly is going to play a role in this.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and I agree. I think another reason why she wants to do that is because the prosecution and law enforcement investigators are coming at her for boatloads of money. Boatloads of money. Because they spent a lot of money, tax dollars, investigating what they thought was the disappearance of a living child. And now that they have learned from the defense that the child was dead all along, they want her to pay all that money back. And she could make big money on a TV deal, so they want to make sure they`re first in line to get that money back.
All right. We`re taking a brief break. We have so much to tell you about. So much breaking news. Was a woman attacked and run off the road and almost killed because she looks like Casey Anthony? We`re taking your calls: 1-877-586-7297. Keep it right there. We`ll be back in a moment. Give us a holler.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No mother could have a child missing 31 days and say nothing and be completely innocent. That`s not possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMMAY BLACKWELL, VICTIM: Well, you look like Casey Anthony. I`m like OK. And I could tell she was staring directly at me. I could almost see the white in her eyes. I proceeded to pull out of the parking lot, and she was right behind me. She hit me again, causing my vehicle to flip 2 1/2 times, landing on the driver`s side. And I just laid there playing dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So much controversy. Everything about Casey Anthony creates controversy. That woman, who is in Oklahoma, says she was run off the road. And the initial story was that it was because she looks like Casey Anthony. And we`ve got a split screen to show you. In fact, she does look quite like Casey Anthony. You can see the resemblance there.
And now, initially she said that it was because you look like Casey Anthony. Yes. Now TMZ is reporting that they obtained a copy of the police report, and there is no mention of the Casey Anthony connection. Well, so then we decided, "Is this some kind of fake story?"
We contacted this woman, and she clarified and said, quote, "I never said I looked like Casey Anthony, and the lady, the suspect never said I looked like Casey Anthony." That was from a local TV station, but she additionally said that, yes, somebody else said she looked like Casey Anthony.
And there is her very damaged truck. And she was run off the road and flipped over. And the woman who chased her down and caused her car to flip over said, "Hey, you`re a baby killer."
So basically, it is because she looked like Casey Anthony. And I have no idea who that is, frankly. Oh, that`s the woman who did it, maybe? I don`t know. That`s the woman accused of doing it. Sorry, that just popped up, and I`m like, who is that?
All right. I want to go out to Michael Christian, because honestly, we got into a point in this story that everything has become sort of surreal. That was a lot of breaking news about something happening in Oklahoma because a woman looks like Casey Anthony. But the emotional aspect of the story tonight is the fact that Casey Anthony is going to be released from jail where we were all at until the storm hit and we had to retreat here to these various studios, on Sunday, July 17. In a very short amount of time. There is her attorney, Jose Baez, visiting her just a little while ago.
Michael Christian, what`s going to happen with embedded journalists and her release? Tell us about it.
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN: What the plan is, Jane, and obviously, plans are always subject to change. What we believe is going to happen is three embedded journalists -- a pool video photographer, a pool still photographer and an A.P. reporter -- are going to be taken into the jail, basically embedded into the jail at 10 a.m. on Saturday evening. Now those people will be in the jail until the time comes when Casey Anthony is released.
At that time, they will be able to photograph her leaving, show her leaving the jail. But they won`t be released from the jail at that moment. They`ll be held a little longer until basically the coast is clear or the jail decides enough time has passed. And then they will be able to come out and share their video and their stills and their observations with members of the pool.
The whole point is to keep everybody from chasing every car, every vehicle that leaves that sheriff`s station. These people will come out and tell us how it happened.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, let me ask you a question, because there`s so much breaking news on a whole bunch of little issues, some big, some little.
There`s this new alleged baby daddy. Another man has come forward. His name is Christopher Lee Umberger. And he is an inmate in South Carolina, and he is going to get out next year. And this guy has now filed papers in Florida, seeking a DNA test to determine if he`s Caylee`s father and says if he is Caylee`s father, he will sue for wrongful death. He will sue Casey Anthony. Just another person lining up to file lawsuits.
CHRISTIAN: Well, you know, it`s amazing. Amazing.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go ahead. Go ahead.
CHRISTIAN: I`m just going to say, it`s amazing. Because if this guy truly believes that he was Caylee`s father, where`s the heck has he been all this time? Now he...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: In prison.
CHRISTIAN: Now he sues for wrongful death? Money, money, money.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, he joins a long list. OK. We`ve got -- we`ve just got to show the list to you.
Christopher Lee Umberger. Then you`ve got Eric Baker. OK. He was named by Casey and Cindy on the stand, that he died in a car accident in 2007. Michael Duggan or Dugan died in 2007 in a car crash. He fits the description. Jesus Ortiz died in a car crash. Jesse Grund. Obviously, that was the ex-fiance of Casey, and Cindy originally thought he was the father. And he, in fact, thought he was the father until he did a paternity test.
And then there -- there is that horrific mention of Lee, which has been disproved. And that poor young man has to go forward with his life with that hanging over his shoulders, but of course, he is not the father.
And by the way, we just learned from ABC News that Lee watched the verdict on television, and then went out to a tasting, because he has an upcoming wedding planned with Mallory. So hopefully, he`s getting his life back together.
All right. When we come back, more drama-rama. You won`t believe what`s next.
CORPORAL YURI MELICH, LEAD DETECTIVE IN CASEY ANTHONY CASE: I can`t imagine her going to this effort in lying to the point where she would walk us into a place that he didn`t work.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So that was a lie?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was a lie.
MELICH: I can`t imagine what would inspire her to lie at this point.
Everything that`s coming out of your mouth is a lie. Everything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And people who were angry over the verdict, the not guilty of murder, are going to be furious again because now Casey Anthony is appealing her four convictions on lying to cops. And guess who`s going to have to pay for that? The taxpayers, who are already in this to the tune of well over $350,000 for having a sequestered jury. That doesn`t even count all the investigation for the missing child that Casey knew was dead all along.
Got to go to Jeff Brown. Jeff, Casey Anthony, by admission of her own civil attorney, has gotten at least seven death threats, and yet, the defense team continues to do things that is -- is definitely going to inspire further anger among the public.
BROWN: Yes. You know, the problem here is the public wants answers. And a lot of people think the trials are a search for the truth, and they feel that we didn`t get the truth. You know, there`s these competing interests between people that defend the verdict and say, well, legally, there was no evidence, and another group of people that say, "Well, wait a second. Since when can`t you use common sense? In what sense, then, can`t you use circumstantial evidence? You don`t always need to have an eyewitness. You can tell something happened even if you don`t have that."
So the problem is that the public wants answers. And you know what? They`re not going to get it. I know the lawyer, Charles Green, that`s defending her. They`re not going to get answers and that`s just going to make people more and more upset.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but I think you`re right. They`re not going to get answers in the Zanny case, even if they put a camera on her, because she`s just going to take the fifth, is what I hear.
But I also think it`s irresponsible of the defense to take this action of appealing the convictions when Jose Baez admitted it in open court that she was lying, that she lied about these things, because it`s going to further anger the public. And so that might be something that is irresponsible, because she`s gotten these death threats already. So they should try to simmer things down, not make them more volatile.
BROWN: Yes. Yes. But keep in mind, they probably know that the one thing that they can`t let her do is answer questions about Caylee, because there aren`t good answers to those questions.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. You`re talking about the Zenaida Gonzalez lawsuit. I`m talking about the fact that she`s appealing these convictions for lying.
BROWN: But the only reason...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I know.
HONOWITZ: Yes, those convictions go to the heart of the defamation case. And really, when you think about it, it`s almost like adding insult to injury. You`re right, Jane. People are so fed up and upset about this verdict. And it is, it`s like -- you`re saying to yourself, if she admitted to it, we all saw it on tape. We all saw the detectives. The lawyer even said it. What are you appealing?
The fact of the matter is that you conceded that point. What is there now to appeal?
And so you`re right, it is going to further the anger. And especially if she`s found to be insolvent, and we have to pay for that now. We`ve already paid for this trial and now we`re paying for her to appeal something she`s already admitted to. It doesn`t make sense at all. It really doesn`t.
BROWN: We know why.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Coming up, I ran into a pedophile hunter has come to the Days Inn coming across the street from the jail, saying she wants answers from Casey Anthony. Unbelievable story. We`re going to hear from her, Barbara Ferris (ph), up next. Amazing twist in this case. Stay right there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
YURI MELICH, INVESTIGATOR IN CASEY ANTHONY CASE: I can`t imagine her going through this effort and lying to the point where she would walk us into a place that she didn`t work.
So that was a lie?
CASEY ANTHONY, ACQUITTED OF MURDERING HER DAUGHTER: That was a lie.
MELICH: I can`t imagine what would inspire her to lie at this point.
Everything that`s coming out of your mouth is a lie -- everything.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That (EXPLETIVE DELETED) needs to die the most painful, (EXPLETIVE DELETED), and horrible slow death ever.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was totally ridiculous. No mother could have a child missing for 31 days and say nothing and be completely innocent. That is not possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: Hi. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell coming to you live from Orlando, Florida. We were outside the jail a huge storm erupted, knocked out our satellite; rain, 60-mile-an-hour winds, hail. We had to retreat to this nearby studio, but we`re really very close to the jail that you`re seeing right there. And we`re going to be here for the duration until Casey Anthony is released on Sunday.
Now, a team of three journalists: a videographer, a still photographer and a reporter from the Associated Press are going to go into the jail at 10:00 p.m. Saturday night. And then after that, sometime after that, probably shortly after the stroke of midnight, she is going to be taken out of the jail, observed by those pool of journalists, and whisked away and we`re told it`s a caravan of vehicles with tinted windows.
And there`s been a lot of hints of, she`s going to take off somewhere which means she`s probably going to go to a local airport, there`s three private airports nearby, including one that`s called Executive. And there`s also Orlando International. She`s going to take off to points unknown.
We`ve heard so much speculation about where she is going, what is she going to do? But her attorney Cheney Mason says that they`re really doing everything in their power to make sure that she can settle in somewhere.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHENEY MASON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: You will be surprised the outpouring of mental health counselors and doctors and nurses and people with homes and ranches and farms and places for her to stay to protect her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Meantime, while I was stationed -- you might say -- at the Days` Inn right next door to the jail with a good high view over the barbed wire, I ran into a woman that we`ve had here on ISSUES before.
Her name is Barbara Farris and she runs Bee Aware. She`s the president of this group that tracks down pedophiles and predators. I asked her, "What are you doing here?" She said "We want answers to the story. I`m doing a documentary about the after-effects of sexual abuse. And since that was an allegation in this case, we are tracking it and making it part of our documentary. We want answers. Was Casey Anthony really sexually abused or not?"
Now, let`s take a look at some YouTube video of Barbara Farris in action before you meet her. Check it out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARBARA FARRIS, BEE AWARE: You had to use some decorations; a few decorations behind your house, in front of your house. You`re a registered offender, right? Why would you, knowing you`re an offender, have decorations and have kids come to your residency, knowing you`re a registered offender? Why would you do that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So Barbara Farris, I run into you on the hall at the Days Inn. We started talking. I said, "Why are you here?" And you said you want to know the truth. So tell us, what exactly are you going to do to find the truth?
FARRIS: Well, we`d like to try to get answers. We`re looking at trying to find out, you know, if we can actually try to get in contact with her and if she plans on fleeing. We want to try to find out, you know, maybe where she`s going. Because if the sexual allegations are true -- and they`re just alleged allegations at this point -- but she has the disassociation and the non-reality and attaching to reality.
So, by the lies and her daughter missing for 30 days that leads up to saying something happened. We`re looking for answers to show the ripple effect of abuse and we`d like to talk to her. We`re going to do what we can to try to track her down.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, the entire world would like to talk to her. A guy on our show yesterday said he`s going to offer her $1 million to talk.
First of all, how do you think you`re going to get close to her? I know you`ve got a team of several people that stayed at the hotel, ready to go to the airport and track her at the local airport?
FARRIS: Yes. We`ll pretty much do whatever it takes. And you know, I don`t know if you`ve seen a lot of the stuff we do. We go through a lot of means to try to get to the bottom of certain cases. We have a very good team. And we try to follow up into looking into exactly, you know, what are they going to do? What`s their plans?
And I think things will calm down after the media calms down. And you know, if she does get on a plane and take off hopefully we can get a hold of her at the airport. But other than that, you know, we`re going to try to see what we can do outside the jail.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Stacey Honowitz, you`ve been watching this from the beginning as have I. Everybody -- everybody wants to talk to this young woman. I honestly believe she mesmerized the jury. They placed the table so she was directly in front of them eye to eye. And I think she has some kind of strange charisma that causes everybody to come out of the woodwork and say, "We want to talk to her, we want to know the truth."
People -- the entire world is fascinated by this mystery of what exactly happened. And now the mystery has been sort of expanded with these allegations by the defense of sexual molestation.
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: I like to know how Barbara thinks that she`s really going to talk to her. I mean I find that fascinating that she thinks she`s going to be able to talk to this person. And when she does talk to this person, based on the series of lies that she`s told through this entire thing, what makes her think she`s ever going to tell her the truth or would we even know what the truth was?
You heard the jurors. Some of the jurors came out and said they didn`t believe any allegations of sexual abuse. And it`s my belief that at some point during the trial, if any of those allegations or the symptoms that they say you have as a sex abuse victim -- and that`s all I prosecute are sex abuse cases -- they would have had a mental health counselor come on and take the stand and say I interviewed her and I`ve seen what she`s done since then and I believe that she displays some of the symptoms of those who have been abused sexually.
And you didn`t hear anybody take the stand and testify to that because nobody would come in and testify to that. I wish you lots of good luck but I don`t think it`s ever happening.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Barbara Farris, I`m going to give you a second or two to respond to that Barbara.
FARRIS: Well, what our goal is, is to get -- you know, if she`s going to use sexual allegations for the whole -- you know, to confuse the jury or whatever her means were, regardless of whether she was sexually abused or not, it doesn`t take -- I mean, if the alleged abuse happened and now there`s a child that`s now gone, there`s no excuse. And it should have been punished and it should be punished.
And if there`s abuse that does come out and after this is over if we can talk to Casey and knowing and dealing with sexual abuse for so many years, she does show the signs of sexual abuse, she shows, you know, going to Universal Studios, her disassociation alone shows signs of abuse.
HONOWITZ: Nobody came in to testify to any of that.
FARRIS: Well, whether they testified or not, she still shows the signs of it. And the point that we want to get to is if she was abused -- if the alleged abuse was true, that`s what created the situation. Sexual abuse happens and it affects a person for a generation.
When you`re sexually abused, it causes abuse, it creates more abuse. It causes them to become abusive --
HONOWITZ: It doesn`t cause you not to report your daughter missing. You can use every excuse in the world Barbara. You know, I prosecute sexual abuse cases, too and I don`t profess to know every symptom --
FARRIS: Ok. I`m not giving her any excuse. This is no excuse for her to do what she`s done.
HONOWITZ: I find it kind of hard to believe -- hard to believe that for 31 days, no report of a child missing because there`s an allegation of sexual abuse.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: One at a time. I want to bring Jeff Brown in here.
FARRIS: I`m not trying to give her an excuse. What I`m saying is --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on a second Barbara.
I understand what you`re saying. It doesn`t condone whatever she may or may not have done of which she was found not guilty. But you would like to learn more about this so that we can all learn something from this case if, in fact, there was some sexual abuse which has certainly not been proven.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And if it`s not true, it`s destroyed two lives or shattered two lives.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jeff Brown, here`s my problem with the sexual abuse. It was the timing. The sexual abuse came up after the Caylee`s remains were found, after the whole idea of Zanny the nanny became a joke. And at a certain point, somebody on the defense team began saying things like we all know Zanny is a lie.
And then next thing you know, we`ve got a new cause of death, accidental drowning and we`ve got, oh, sexual molestation. I find the timing suspicious. Jeff Brown.
JEFF BROWN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely. Keep this in mind, the only person who has ever actually alleged sexual abuse is the lawyer, Baez. You know, we`ve never had Casey actually say that. Baez said it in an opening statement and he said a lot of things that weren`t true.
And you know, I really think he just said it and threw it out there, trying to do anything he could for his client, which I think borders on being unethical. But as Stacey will tell you, often times and not all the times, but often times when you do have sexual abuse, you have outcry witnesses.
You have somebody that maybe heard something, saw something, or that was told something. For instance, those like Cindy perhaps. We don`t have any of that. We don`t have any of those witnesses. We don`t have any of the experts that Stacey is talking about that normally can come in here. The only thing we have is Baez and that`s nothing.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to go to Gloria, New York; Gloria, your question or thought, Gloria. Gloria. Hey Gloria, are you there? Ok. Well, I guess Gloria -- I`m going to go to Lee Anthony`s sound, because I think this is very, very insightful into the hell that this family has been put through. Let`s listen to Lee Anthony.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: Mr. Anthony, can you tell us why you were angry and who you were angry with as to why you didn`t go and see Caylee and Casey at the hospital?
LEE ANTHONY, BROTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: I`m sorry.
I was very angry at my mom. And I was also angry at my sister. I was just angry with everyone in general that they didn`t want to include me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Quick question or thought, Gloria. We finally got you. Quick comment.
Listen, I want to quickly ask Stacey Honowitz, obviously Lee`s life has been shattered by this. He didn`t come to see the verdict in person. He watched it on television and then went to a tasting for his upcoming wedding to Mallory. He seems, though, that he is the person who has really kind of survived this best almost by being real about it.
HONOWITZ: Yes, I mean listen, you hope that he can make a life for himself. You know nobody wants -- we saw the dysfunction. We talked about dysfunction, dysfunction -- ok. But you hope that at some point somebody like him where an allegation was made against him will be able to survive all this and move on with his life. And that`s all you can hope for.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`re going to be back in a second.
Gloria. All right, we`ll be back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MASON: Here you are with no money, no home, no family, no place to go. And the only family she has is the defense team. Her family, let`s say, how many times did they testify against her in a death penalty case? Forget all the rest of it. They didn`t have to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Casey Anthony has won her freedom against all odds. And this is probably what she`s thinking she`s going to be doing, going partying. But she can`t really do that because the entire world -- you heard from Barbara Farris -- everybody wants to talk to her. Everybody wants to know the truth.
And there are some people who are angry at her. Her own civil attorney Charles Green (ph) said today that she has received at least seven death threats. I certainly hope that everybody remain calm and follows the rule of law.
If you want to maintain the moral high ground, you have to obey the laws. We certainly want to urge everyone to remain calm and to accept the jury`s verdict.
But the truth is that Cheney Mason himself said her only family right now, Jeff Brown, is the defense team. And they`re going to move on with their lives. They`re going to go and do other cases. And she`s going to go somewhere where she`s reportedly going to have to go under cover. Change her hair color, cut her hair, wear hats, sunglasses; maybe change her name.
What is life going to be like for her? And is that possibly why her own civil attorney today said that he was very concerned for her mental health right now.
BROWN: Yes. She`s not going to be able to fit in anywhere. There`s no question about this. This is a woman who has repeatedly. We have no evidence that she`s ever gotten treatment. And I mean -- when I say repeatedly lied, she took lying to a whole new form. I mean I have never in my 20 years doing this ever met a defendant that lied like her. I don`t think I`ve ever met a person that lied like her.
So this is just something that`s going to happen. There`s just no place for her to go. The nation knows her. She`s going to have to have a job. If she`s on probation for those felonies that she already pled to earlier, if that probation is still out there, she has to have employment as a condition of that probation. And she`s not going to be able to move anywhere without letting her probation officer know.
But you know, this woman is going to be back. There`s no question about it. You just can`t change overnight from being what she was to somebody that can play by the rules and can tell the truth.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: By the way, see that pink shirt she`s wearing and it`s got ruffles on it. That was what she wore on verdict day. That`s now the hot selling Halloween costume. That shirt is selling out everywhere, which is just one more example of how surreal this entire saga has become.
I want to go to Beth from Pennsylvania, your thought or comment, Beth? Hey, Beth. Ok. We`re not having good luck with the -- we`re not going to take any more callers tonight.
I want to, though, go to something that I thought was very interesting. And I don`t know if we have the video of Drew Peterson because this could be something that might happen to Casey Anthony.
Drew Peterson, you know, the cop whose wife disappeared and now he`s obviously facing charges. There he is incarcerated. He`s in a lot of hot water. Well, they are doing a made-for-TV movie based on his life starring Rob Lowe, Stacey Honowitz.
And he is furious and his attorney is threatening to sue because he is not getting a cent. And the reason, Stacey, is that his entire sordid story, except for the secrets that he will probably never reveal, is in the public record.
And there`s Rob Lowe. He`s going to be starring in the film. Do you think the same thing could happen to Casey Anthony where they do a Lifetime movie and they just don`t pay her a cent?
HONOWITZ: Well, I mean, I`m sure if they didn`t pay her a cent, she would sue for it. I mean certainly she`s going to try to get some kind of income. I mean you have these issues I think with Amanda Knox, too. Lifetime did a movie about her. I don`t know if she got any kind of compensation for it. Well, she didn`t, she was in custody so she didn`t.
I can tell you, Jane that I would think that the level of emotion is going to subside after a certain amount of time. And I wouldn`t be surprised if there`s some kind of licensing or some kind of made-for-TV movie or something where she claims that she wants to get paid for it. She wants profits from it because she has no other means of support. And that`s going to lead into if she`s got all these lawsuits pending against her, how do they expect her to pay if, in fact, the judgment rules against her? So it`s all going to go full circle. At some point she`s going to end up getting some kind of money. And she should pay.
I don`t know why she wouldn`t want to pay Tim Miller back. She lied about where her child was. This man came in with a volunteer team. Why wouldn`t you want to give this person money who gave up looking for other kids? It just doesn`t make any sense.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: She doesn`t want to give anybody a cent.
And she will sue if Lifetime or some other TV organization does a movie based on her life without paying her. But they can do it. It`s all public record. They don`t have to pay her a penny. Stay right there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAEZ: This child at 8 years old learned to lie immediately. She could be 13 years old, have her father`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in her mouth, and then go to school and play with the other kids as if nothing ever happened. Nothing is wrong. That will help you understand why no one knew that her child was dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: This case has shattered so many lives, but none worse than George Anthony. George Anthony has lost his granddaughter and then goes into court and hears himself accused of molestation, accused of finding his granddaughter drowned in the pool, accused of covering it up.
And then, of course, there`s all the negative tweets, accused of having an affair. People didn`t believe his denial of that.
It`s absolutely probably the worst series of events that could happen to a human being, considered suicide; tried to commit suicide. The defense said you didn`t really try to commit suicide, did you? Implied maybe that he had something to do with it; why didn`t you call 911 when you smelled death in the car?
Now ABC had initially reported that George had said -- or according to sources George had said that Casey is not welcomed back home. That, Casey, don`t come to Hope Spring Drive in the house where Cindy and I live when you get out of jail. It`s a five minute drive away, ten minutes at the most.
But now the attorney for Cindy and George is coming out and saying, uh-uh. That was not said.
So I go to Stacey Honowitz. You`ve prosecuted so many cases. These parents, are they still showing unconditional love for this young lady, or do they really want them -- want her out of their lives?
HONOWITZ: Well, I`m not a mind reader so I don`t know sincerely what they`re thinking. But outwardly if the lawyer is saying that we never said she couldn`t come home, then certainly they`re showing unconditional love for their daughter.
I don`t know how you ever break that. I don`t know if that ever goes away. I don`t know if they ever rebuild their lives. I don`t know how they possibly at this point can. But that`s not for me to judge. That`s for them to get into counseling and see psychologists and family therapists.
For now -- like I said if the lawyer is saying we never told her not to come here, then that to me is an outpouring of unconditional love towards her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jeff brown, I think one of the reasons that people started wondering whether George had totally had it, aside from the fact that he was accused of everything under the sun is that he has signed on and said I support Caylee`s Law, which would make it a crime, and it`s based on his granddaughter`s case, it would make it a crime not to report, for a parent or guardian not to report the disappearance of their toddler.
So the fact that he supports that, you have to read into it. Don`t you, Jeff?
BROWN: You do. This is why everybody thinks this family is dysfunctional. How do you ever let this daughter back into your house if it`s true that you never sexually abused her, and those allegations are completely baseless, how do you let this daughter back in the house? It`s just shocking.
And then he turns around and says we support the new law, the Caylee Law, regarding that you have to report as a mother your child missing, which would infer he wasn`t involved like the defense argues and that he feels Casey never did report it. So we get these mixed signals from this family and this is the right --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think it boils down to I love her, but I don`t like her. More in a moment.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we`re nearing the end of this saga. I`ve been here living in Orlando for more than a month now, and I`m going to be outside the jail at the moment that Casey Anthony is released, probably sometime after midnight Saturday night into Sunday. I probably won`t sleep for 24 hours, but you know what, it`s all worth it. It`s been an extraordinary lesson in human nature.
The importance of family, think about it. Everybody gave up on Casey. She has no friends, nothing. Who was the one person aside from her lawyers who wanted to see her after the verdict, after the sentencing? Her mom. Her mom said, oh, you look pretty with your hair down. And tried to visit her in jail and was turned away.
Well, you know, my hat`s off to you, Cindy. You`ve been through hell, you and George. And you deserve a lot of credit.
"NANCY GRACE" is up next.