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Casey Anthony Released From Jail
Aired July 18, 2011 - 21:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go now. Casey Anthony`s out of jail and walking amongst us. Could she be in your town? And what if she were? Would she cash in on infamy? Would you write a book written by her? Casey Anthony "Life on then outside".
Let`s go figure this out.
Casey Anthony was released from prison very early Sunday morning. It was just after midnight. Among the onlookers, protesters and curiosity seekers were children, little children.
Now guys, I`m not sure what the parents were thinking. Maybe they couldn`t get babysitters that night, but it was well described that there could be some violence that night. Shouldn`t your kids be in bed? It was after midnight, and you`re bringing kids out to an unstable situation where adults are expressing a lot of condemnation and anger. These same adults are the people condemning Casey and her alleged lack of concern for her own child.
So now, I like to look at people`s behaviors here and why they do what they do. I`d like to ask is the parents to think twice about putting kids in these potentially dangerous situations. Consider what`s appropriate for the kids to in here. Make decisions on behalf of the children. They`re not extensions of you. They`re separate people with separate developmental needs. And they need to be taken care of carefully. Let`s not model Casey`s behavior, let`s do something different. How about that?
All right, tonight decoys, disguises, and private yachts. We`re taking you inside Casey`s top secret midnight release after being found not guilty of murdering her two-year-old daughter Caylee.
Casey then - Casey Anthony slipped out of jail in the dead of night. And she was whisked away into a waiting SUV.
Take a look at this and we`ll talk.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: We are here at the orange county jail.
MATTE SEDENSKY, WITNESS ON CASEY`S RELEASED: Ten minutes after midnight when she came out of that blue door and was officially free.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: She walked out with $537 in her pocket from the jail house commissary.
Was that her? It looks like it was her because they`re taking off now right now.
I know that Cindy Anthony would have loved to have been there with her daughter when she was released.
MARK LIPPMAN, ATTORNEY FOR GEROGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: Last night we got a call from Mr. Baez. He wanted to use my clients as decoys.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I thought they would disguise it a little better. They honestly let her walk out and everyone see it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: The question today where is Casey?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: ABC News Reporting that plane went to Prescott, Arizona. Could she be there possibly?
(END VIDEO TAPE)
PINSKY: Casey`s attorneys brought her a bunch of clothes to choose from, and she walked out of jail in a form-fitting pink Ralph Lauren t- shirt.
From there, we don`t know. There are a lot of reports shall we call them reports floating around. Casey got into a private plane bound for Ohio. I`ve heard that`s not true. She`s on a private yacht. We may have more questions about that. There`s even rumors she was in disguise and flew out of town on a jet at 3:00 a.m. Check o it out.
In a second you`ll see a woman hop out of an SUV and run to a waiting plane.
Now, we don`t know if that is Casey or not. But the fact is she can`t hide forever. So what will she do? Want to go straight to my guests.
I`ve got Tony Zumbado; he was one of the embedded journalists who filmed her release. I also have in the studio executive director of star magazine Dylan Howard.
Now, Dylan, I understand you have some information or at least some reports about where she might be.
DYLAN HOWARD, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, STAR MAGAZINE: The question is where in the world is Casey Anthony? I say the answer is do we even care? I want to get to that in a moment.
PINSKY: In a moment. You`re a journalist. We don`t care anymore?
HOWARD: I don`t think so. We have questions we want to ask her. I want to ask questions of her. Am I going to pay? No. Do we care? No. She`s safe.
PINSKY: Radar`s not going to pay?
HOWARD: Right. And I will not pay Casey Anthony
PINSKY: Would you pay George and Cindy for a story?
HOWARD: Most - if that information to Lawson, we would be interested in that. Do they have videos or photos or documents that we haven`t seen, anything that tells a story perhaps, I think they perhaps have a story to tell.
PINKY: I`m going to speculate that your reason for the distinction is except for Casey from Cindy and George is Casey is such a damn liar that you don`t want her.
HOWARD: She`s not credible for one.
PINSKY: Is that your big reason?
HOWARD: That and also two-thirds of Americans believe she murdered her little daughter which means I wouldn`t want to subject our organization to any negative publicity associated with paying someone with what would essentially be blood money.
PINSKY: Interesting. OK. So where is she? Even though we don`t care.
HOWARD: There had been speculation she was being housed on a yacht by the talk show host Geraldo Riviera. His brother denied that today. That said there is much speculation about where she could indeed be.
All we know is that Jose Baez, their lawyer, told George and Cindy Anthony`s lawyer via text message that she is safe.
Could she be in America or Puerto Rico? That`s another suggestion. We just don`t know.
PINSKY: Maybe the brother`s denials are about the specifics. She`s not on the yacht.
HOWARD: But certainly Geraldo has a very close relationship with Jose Baez. He`s been side by side with him throughout the entire trial. So who knows? Who really does know?
PINSKY: All right. Again, even -- let`s sort of think of this and step back for a second and ask ourselves -- I hope we`re going to move on from this story soon.
HOWARD: What value would there be to identify where she is for the moment? To encourage vigilantly attacks? OK vigilante attacks?
I can`t see what the value for any major organizer she would be to identify that Casey Anthony is living in seclusion and hiding somewhere and giving up that location. What value would that be?
PINSKY: Fair enough. Well said. OK. Let`s move on from it then.
All right, only three journalists were allowed to capture Casey`s release. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEDENSKY: It`s hard to interpret a facial expression but she looked to me like she might be nervous or holding back tears. She was kind of just up you know like sort of looking up towards the ceiling. It sort of seemed like she was holding her mouth pretty still. You know, I can`t be for sure what she was feeling, but it seemed like she was holding back something.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. Tony, you were one of those journalists. What was Casey like? Describe the scene for us.
TONY ZUMBADO, VIDEOGRAPHER: All right. Basically, the scene was of a subdued area for us first. They took us up to the fourth floor where we were held there for quite -- about half an hour to an hour. Then we were brought down to the lobby. And in the anticipation of how she was going to come out, who was going to come out first? How many people were going to be surrounding her? Was it going to be a fast exit or was she going to stop by our microphone and hopefully wishing that she would say something?
So there was a lot of little intricate things going on that we were trying to put together to see what best scenario for us would be.
Now, let me tell you. We didn`t know it was going to be the front door until the last half hour. That was very surprising to all of us. We thought we were going to go in the back to a private area where you can see her being processed and then she was going to be taken to a car somewhere in the back where we could not see it.
So, when they said it was scenario number one, straight out the front door, I was glad and happy for that. And I was very grateful that the chief of the corrections in Orange County decided to do that. That was a good call and a tough call to do.
PINSKY: Tony, how did you -- for people that didn`t hear this story. How did you get selected for this?
ZUMBADO: I really can`t tell you exactly how it was. Not because I just don`t know. Names were put into a -- were given to the media pool that were negotiating with the corrections department. And I was picked and I was honored to be picked. And glad of it. Glad it all worked out.
PINSKY: And you heard what Dylan was just saying, I hope, that where he wasn`t going to pay for any sort of contact with Casey because effectively it`s blood money. Do you have any ambivalence about partaking in this?
ZUMBADO: Well, I got to tell you as a journalist I always want to listen to the other side. My whole M.O. of being a journalist is giving voices to those who don`t have it. Until I hear you tell me something, it`s very hard for me not to -- or to make a decision of whom you are and what you`re about.
So I would be very interested in hearing what she has to say. And have her tell me something that I don`t know and look at her straight in the face and ask her a couple of simple questions.
To pay for that? I don`t believe in having to pay for it because I`m just an old fashioned kind of journalist. I would wish that she would rather sit down with a credible organization with a credible crew and with a credible correspondent to reveal the truth and give her self credibility to what that she has to say to the world and to continue with her life.
And when you pay and when you`re instructed to do so and I understand she needs money. Just today she got 30 to 40 mails- letter sent to the jail where she was at and that could have been money there. Who knows? But those were sent back to sender, if you will. So there`s a lot of other ways that she can make money.
PINSKY: I appreciate it. Thank you for joining us. I`ll leave the last question to Dylan.
What about that? What about getting the record straight? What about the truth here? Are we ever going to know it? Are we ever going to get it from Casey?
HOWARD: We may or may not. Who knows? Dr. Drew, you would probably want the chance for her to sit here on this set and ask her questions. Would you?
PINSKY: I would want to get to the bottom -- I wouldn`t pay for it for sure. I almost don`t want to be tainted with her for awhile. I`d like to talk to her much later. Once she`d spewed her nonsense - whatever the lies are that other people get out of her. Then sit back and see what the truth seems to be to me and repress her on that.
HOWARD: I don`t think there would be anyone worth their salt that doesn`t have questions for Casey Anthony. No mainstream organization is going to pay for it. Her chance of a million-dollar payday is fast evaporating. If I was Baez, I would take the deal for no money and get her to answer the questions that America wants answered.
PINSKY: Thank you Dylan. You guys are staying with me.
Coming up: Want to know what George and Cindy were thinking when they saw their daughter being released from jail? Do they know even where she is?
Their lawyer joins us and he tells us next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: You guys have any plans to meet up with Casey?
Mrs. Anthony? We just wanted to get your thoughts on Casey getting out of jail this weekend. Are you planning to meet up with her? Or see her at all?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: We just wanted your thoughts on Casey getting out of jail this weekend. Are you planning to meet up with her or see her at all?
PINSKY: Those two, I am interested in speaking with.
Now, she led investigators on a wild goose chase looking for her daughter Caylee. You know who I`m talking about. And now Casey`s leading the media on a similar wild goose chase. Another vortex for Casey. Fantastic.
The question of the week, where in the world is Casey Anthony? Where`s Waldo?
Casey was released just minutes after midnight Sunday morning. And rumors immediately began flying about where she`s going.
George and Cindy Anthony`s attorney says Jose Baez actually asked them to act as decoys the night Casey was released in attempt to throw off the media and the people following her. And I guess per people say, to be fair.
Mark Lippman said they thought it was too risky. He joins us now. He also says they watched Casey released on jail on television.
Mark, I want to ask you about this decoy plan. But also in first, do George and Cindy know where their daughter is right now?
LIPPMAN: No, they have no idea, Dr. Drew. We`ve -- I`ve since been in contact with Mr. Baez over the phone. And he`s repeated his assurances that she`s safe. That`s all he`ll say.
PINSKY: Do you find it peculiar that they don`t know? Does it trouble them?
LIPPMAN: I think more -- it`s more so a security issue right now. And I can say yes my clients are troubled that they have no idea what`s going on with her. But certainly I understand from Mr. Baez`s perspective that he needs to make sure first and foremost his client is taken care of just like I have to ensure mine are.
PINSKY: Well Mark, if I were the parent of an adult child and an attorney was whisking her away under sort of nefarious circumstances, I`d be angry with that attorney.
Are the Anthony`s upset with Jose Baez?
LIPPMAN: Certainly they`ll be able to speak their minds when and if they do speak, but as far as -- if I say anything about Mr. Baez it`s a reflection on my client. So I can say that he`s trying his best to keep his client safe. And no matter what --
PINSKY: I get that. I understand that. And I understand you have certain privilege issues. I`m just saying if I were the parent I`d have issues with that.
LIPPMAN: And certainly, I understand. But unfortunately I can`t express what they want to say.
PINSKY: All right. Got you. I had a feeling you`d say that. That`s cool with me. Tell me about this decoy plan. How`d they feel about that?
LIPPMAN: Sure. Mr. Baez had all his pieces in play on Saturday night, Sunday morning, getting ready for his client to go wherever she was going. As the final thought, I think he wanted to have just another layer. And he had the idea of possibly luring media off his tail and have them think my clients were going to meet Casey at Jose`s office.
And he was suggesting that they just drive out there and have everybody follow them. Once the media started doing that, it would have been public information. And right now even though it`s died off quite a bit, I still have quite a lot of safety concerns for my clients.
PINSKY: Dylan, do you think that decoy plan was good one? What about the rumors about her flying to Ohio?
HOWARD: We spoke to the only relatives that she has in Ohio and they tell us she`s not there. In fact, the day I related George and in deed they haven`t spoken to Casey since this began.
In the decoy plot, I`m absolutely gone smacked that an attorney at law would suggest that George and Cindy Anthony put themselves in a potential risky situation to protect the daughter that has put them through this.
It is abhorrent, its god smacking and it`s potentially dangerous. What happens if George and Cindy would have been hunted down by a mob of people believing that Cindy might have been - Casey may have been in the car? Just disgraceful in my point of view.
PINSKY: Mark, I am gob smacked about the word gob smacked. So, what is your response to Dylan?
LIPPMAN: Sure. For me to protect Mr. Baez, it was just a suggestion. Certainly it wasn`t anything that -- he just threw it out there as an idea. I think he was nervous about the situation.
HOWARD: The fact he did was concerning.
PINSKY: It is concerning. Listen, I`m going to switch gears a bit.
We`re sort of registering our concern. We spoke to a source close to the Anthony family. And that source apparently reported that George and Cindy were divided over the jury`s not guilty verdict. And that Cindy wanted Casey to come home but George was totally against it. Interesting in this footage here
They seem sort of together. They physically look like they are a unit right now. Can you respond to those reports, Mark Lippman?
LIPPMAN: Sure. You can see in all the pictures out there that they are together. They`re not divided. At one point I sat between them in the trial and there was speculation there was something going on. And it was just so Cindy could see a bit better.
But at the point they are going to talk about their feelings on the verdict, certainly they`re more expressive and much more well spoken than I am as to what they want to say.
PINSKY: Well, Mark, let me ask you this. Are those feelings dividing them? Is that creating an issue in their relationship? Or can you speak to that?
LIPPMAN: I can certainly say that they`re a unit. They maintain that they`re going to stay together. And the odds are stacked against them theoretically. In most cases with something of this magnitude couples generally don`t stay together. But they seem to be breaking from that normal statistic.
PINSKY: OK. I`ve got a break. That`s important for me to hear. Dylan you`re hearing otherwise. So am I. What do you think about this?
HOWARD: The speculation George and Cindy are going to separate. We all hope they probably stay together given everything they`ve gone through.
PINSKY: It is to find the odds. But the point is when we hear these reports, it`s not that surprising.
But I`ve got to break right now. We will continue the story and we`re taking your calls and comments next.
And later, can Casey cash in on her infamy or not? Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No mother could have a child missing for 31 days and not say anything and be innocent. That is not possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: She`s at least not innocent or guilty of being not the world`s greatest mom, right? This lady`s reaction does not surprise me. But I am amazed by the volume of questions we continue get about Casey.
So, let`s go to the phones. Hazel in Orlando, what`s up?
HAZEL, CALLER, ORLANDO: Hey, Dr. Drew. I watched the interview with her parents. And she was so convincing that she doesn`t know where Caylee is.
Is there any medical condition where she could have committed this crime and just simply blocked it out of her mind that she just simply forgot she did it?
PINSKY: Well, it`s not about forgetting about it. It`s more being in an altered state when these things happen.
So people who are using substances for instance or people with dissociative disorders can black out or red-out and not remember what they did. And there`s certain personality conditions where that individual`s version of reality is the only acceptable version. Other alternatives beg no option.
Now, we have no evidence if any of these things occurred in Casey Anthony`s case. So I would say not likely in her situation. That`s for sure.
Stephanie in Kentucky, you`re next. What`s your question?
STEPHANIE, CALLER, KENTUCKY: Hi, Dr. Drew. I`d like to know how do we as families in a nation move on from this tragedy with little Caylee?
I`m a mother and to know this happens a lot is mind boggling. Could you please give us advice?
PINSKY: Yes. I mean this is something we`ve tried to emphasize on this show repeatedly. Trying to take this tragedy and turn it into something positive.
In fact if you remember Jeff Ashton at the end of the program, the interview I did with him, he said the same thing. If you want to do something from this experience, is "a" keep your families together. "B" love your children. "C" keep eyes on your kids. Realize the world is got a stretch place now. But more importantly be of service. There plenty of organizations that need man power that serve kids. Be part of that.
Here`s an e-mail question from Maria. "Would a seizure disorder affect the brain like Casey Anthony`s causing her to lie and lack empathy?"
That is actually a very, very good question.
We do know for a fact that she has six generalized seizures in jail. Those seizures, people fall on the floor, wrap around for all we know. That sort of things.
And my peers, many of them have spoken to me and written to me and speculated that maybe she has called a partial complex seizure disorder. Which is a disorder that effects emotions and memories -- excuse me, and behaviors and thinking and then generalizes? That`s still un-answered question.
Her girl biological processing, to the extent of which is seizure is sort may be contributed we don`t know that. But it`s a fascinating question.
Mary writes the issue of race. "Did being a young Caucasian female aid in Casey`s perception of innocence?"
And this is a -- I tell you what. A painful question to think about and I`ll let each of you decide for yourself whether you think what her significant role to play here.
I`m fearful that it might have contributed. And let`s all give that some real thought. Worth looking -- checking our souls on this one.
Coming up: Casey Anthony`s already famous. Now, is she going to get rich too?
Listen, guys. You might have something to say about this. Would you buy a book written by her? You don`t have to. You don`t have to frequent the interviews. You don`t have to watch the television programs that air her interviews. You don`t have to buy her books. You don`t have the buy the print material that publishes her material.
Stick around. We`ll about more about that after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): What`s next for Casey Anthony? Is this she or a decoy? Where is she? Will we ever see her again?
Coming up, she could follow the money. She might have to, but is she too hot to handle for book publishers and producers of made for TV movies? They could get burned by a backlash. If she agrees to an interview, would we believe anything she said? She`s got to make a living. She`s got to move on. How will she do it?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): Tonight, Casey Anthony is a free woman, but there are questions. Where is she going to go? How is she going to support herself and so on? First, let`s take a look back at the many different faces of Casey.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She walked out. She had a sign of relief in her face. Kind of glad to be out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Holding back any sort of facial expression.
CASEY ANTHONY, ACCUSED OF KILLING HER DAUGHTER: I`m not going to give the media anything when I get out of here. Sucks for them because I have nothing so say. Can something let me -- come on!
I (INAUDIBLE) about that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
ANTHONY: I agree with (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a homicide, but I don`t know the means for which that homicide occurred.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The top of the bones, these have actually been chewed on by animals.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Verdict as to count one, we, the jury, find the defendant not guilty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: There were times during the trial when she showed emotion, but as she walked out of jail, she seemed relaxed, wearing a form-fitting top and tight jeans, even cracked a smile. We`re back with Jennifer Beringer. She is a former member of the Casey Anthony defense team and current consultant to them. Attorney Mark Eiglarsh is with us. As well, we`re joined by body language expert, Chris Ulrich.
Chris, what did you see in Casey`s body language when she walked out of jail early Sunday?
CHRIS ULRICH, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: Well, you raised a great point. She is relaxed. She is calm as she walks out. Although, at one point, she does something very interesting, Dr. Drew. After she says thank you to the policeman who maybe wishes her well wishes, she kind of looks down, and she also takes on what we call microexpression. These are expressions that happen within 1/15th of a second.
And what we see there is a sense of sadness. And what that tells us, Dr. Drew, is that we`re seeing some emotion of sadness, but it doesn`t tell us what she`s thinking. Is she thinking about what the rest of her life is going to be like? That this is finally over or what she`s now walking into, the court of opinion which has already determined that she`s guilty.
So, we don`t know what it is, but we do see an addition to her walking out relaxed, this microexpression of fear, this look down. Sometimes, when we see someone look down, Dr. Drew, it` holding of emotion a little bit. So, she does leak a little bit of sadness as she`s walking out. And that might --
PINSKY: It`s interesting that one reporter did seem to pick up on that. Now, Chris, during the verdict, what can you tell us about Casey`s body language? Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As to the charge of first-degree murder, verdict as to count one, we, the jury, find the defendant not guilty, as to the charge of aggravated child abuse, verdict as to count two, we, the jury, find the defendant not guilty, as to charge of aggravated --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Chris, what are you seeing as we watch this tape?
ULRICH: We`re definitely seeing some release of emotion. Now, what we`re seeing is again some microexpressions of a little bit of anger as she listens and then total relief at times. Where we see kind of a, ahh, sigh of relief. So much of her body was so tight during the rest of the trial. Her baseline expression, this is her go-to expression. It was pretty much anger and it was pretty much contempt and showing us very little that stone cold face.
So, for the first time here in relation to a decision being made about her, we see this exhale, for the first time. So, it`s definitely an example to us that she was very nervous about that. And then, as soon as that verdict comes in, she lets go of some of that anxiousness and that anxiety that she was obviously feeling as she was very tight in that moment.
PINSKY: Now, Jennifer, a lot of us in the press and on other shows have been speculating about her expression during the trial. And you were telling me just during the commercial break that you were carefully coaching her to have no expression. That`s what all that emotional disconnect was about was concentrating on not having emotions?
JENNIFER BARRINGER, CONSULTANT FOR CASEY ANTHONY: I think that`s really common. I mean, we often do that to our defendants. We don`t want them to show anything, because everything is picked up. Every little movement is picked up.
PINSKY: She was shaking her head --
BARRINGER: That`s too much for me. I just say you just sit there --
PINSKY: Were you on her during the trial? Were you there with Casey --
BARRINGER: I was not in Florida at that time, but I`m certain that Jose was doing that. We don`t want anybody reading into anything, especially the jury. We don`t want them to see if they think if she said or not said. You just say, please sit. Please don`t react.
PINSKY: At all.
PINSKY: But in the court of public opinion here, that went off as either emotionally disconnected or not caring.
PINSKY: It had all kinds of other interpretations.
BARRINGER: I know. I imagine the jury didn`t feel that way.
PINSKY: Why? Why the jury wouldn`t feel the same damn thing?
BARRINGER: You know, probably, you know, when you`re this close, her sitting still doesn`t look as cold it does, you know, as we`re moved as we are looking at it on television.
PINSKY: Was she having feelings sitting there? Did she talk to you about those feelings?
BARRINGER: Not to me. And I suspect absolutely.
PINSKY: She was?
BARRINGER: I mean, everybody does.
PINSKY: And what would she do with those feelings? Does she go back and talk to Jose Baez about it or what?
PINSKY: Or just talk to the other inmates about it? What did she do? --
BARRINGER: I suspected Jose told her to not speak to any other inmates.
PINSKY: Which she would do (ph) anyway.
BARRINGER: You know, but, you know, you need a release somewhere, but I assume that most of the time, defendants really hate to be that still. And we are always like, please nothing. Nothing. Don`t shake. Nothing. So, it is really a very -- it`s what your other guest said, Chris. She`s going to be really, really tight, because she is having emotions that she`s not allowed to show them or she`s going to get a little slap from Jose or poke or kick or, you know?
PINSKY: Mark Eiglarsh, does what Jennifer saying fit with how you coach your clients?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. In fact, I`m glad you asked me. That`s her style, but I want my clients to get away with as much as they`re able to get away with as long as it`s appropriate, and that`s what she did. I don`t believe she stood stone cold faced and looked to the jurors. I think she did exactly what she needed to do and probably what she was coached to do.
And that is when she tremendously disagrees with something, she would subtly shake her head. When something was emotional, she would cry. So, she is essentially testifying to the jury but without having to take the witness stand. So, I think that if clients can get away with that, that`s fine.
PINSKY: Jennifer, any response?
BARRINGER: I think that`s hardly unethical. Mark, shame on you. No. I actually don`t like the shake. If I had been down there, I would have poked her and said stop it. Stop shaking.
EIGLARSH: So, you`d rather a juror. Again, I`m not telling the client when to shake their head. I`m not holding the little puppet strings, but if a client disagrees with something, the jurors are looking over to see the client`s reaction to the big bombshell that just came from the witness stand.
If my client is shaking the head like absolutely not, that`s a good thing. This is a theater. We`ve all learned. It`s not about the truth. It`s about what they can prove. And if they`re looking over and seeing my client, or in this case, Casey appropriately reacting that she disagrees with it, well, obviously, it works.
PINSKY: And I`m a little surprised you would say it`s unethical. It`s unethical to tell a client to show certain kinds of emotions or certain situation, but you guys will do anything else to get a client off?
BARRINGER: Well, that`s what, you know, I`m only allowed to use what you give me as my client. So, I`m supposed to be your, you know, your last effort at, you know, getting some sort of justice for yourself, for you, as a client if you were a client.
PINSKY: And so, it`s unethical to say cry when your brother cries.
BARRINGER: It`s not really unethical, but I think it borders on the icky.
PINSKY: It all boards on the icky. Every time I talk to defense attorneys about this case, I get a little icky feeling. Chris, one last thing for you --
EIGLARSH: I guess, it`s not icky to say that your daughter drowned when that isn`t supported by the evidence. There was nothing icky about that.
PINSKY: All right. Real quick, Chris, ten seconds. Is it challenging to try to interpret body language and somebody`s feeling in situations like this when they`re being coached to show nothing?
ULRICH: Well, the big thing for us, Dr. Drew, is we see that even when she`s trying not to show any emotions, she`s going to leak that emotion. So, for us, we get to see the emotion.
PINSKY: Got it.
ULRICH: The hard part for us, Dr. Drew, is we don`t get the chance to ask that powerful question to tell us what that emotion she is leaking is about.
PINSKY: Thank you, Chris. Thank you, Mark. Jennifer, you guys are going to stick with me.
Coming up, could Casey Anthony go Hollywood? Would a TV interview with Casey be a rating bonanza or would it cause some sort of backlash?
And Thursday, stay tuned for this. My special primetime interview with Bristol Palin. In her new book, she talks about her mom, Sarah Palin, and chronicles her life as a single mom. That is Bristol`s. And no topic was taboo. We even talk about the night she lost her virginity. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRISTOL PALIN, DAUGHTER OF SARAH PALIN: It was a night that I look back on with the adult eyes that I have now, and I just realized that that was so stupid. That was so stupid to lie to my mom and to have those series of bad decisions that I made all in one night, but it was definitely a life changing.
PINSKY: But one of them was intoxicated.
PINSKY: In California, that would be a rape. Is it the same in Alaska?
PALIN: You know, I don`t know the laws on it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re trying to unite Americans and say, no, we will not buy anything, no books, no movies. We`re not going to watch interviews. None of it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. We`ll see. Well, can a young woman found not guilty of murder but guilty in the court of public opinion possibly capitalize on this so-called celebrity? Casey Anthony has, indeed, become a household name. She`s been on the covers of "Globe," "OK," "People" magazines. And there`s speculation that she may be offered millions for an interview. There`s even talk of Casey Anthony the movie.
Now, should she make money from the death of her daughter? Back to talk about it, criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh and Jennifer Barringer. She`s a consultant to Casey Anthony`s defense team. And joining us, host of HLN`s "Issues," Jane Velez-Mitchell. Jane, should she make money of this?
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST OF HLN`S "ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL": Well, I personally don`t think so, but, I also feel that there`s a lot of people who agree with me that she shouldn`t make money. The bleep Casey Anthony Facebook page has about 800,000 members. There was a tremendous rage at the jail at the time of her release. You saw one woman there who is organizing a whole boycott of any corporation that has anything to do with her in terms of handing her money.
So, I think it`s going to be very dicey for any kind of legitimate major corporation to do a deal with Casey Anthony, although, as we all know, there are many, many ways around that. So, they might be able to do a sneaky deal and pay a corporation that Casey Anthony creates that might even be an offshore corporation. We don`t know how it`s going to work.
PINSKY: And Jennifer, you know, the question to you is will she make money?
BARRINGER: I suspect that she probably will.
PINSKY: Ways in which Jane is suggesting?
BARRINGER: I think so. I mean, I`m not giving you any inside information when I say, this is a woman who probably is not going to get a job in this country. So, I imagine that she`s going to make money off this. You know, whether that she should, you know, that`s an unfortunate thing that people will be talking about for the next couple of years in college, but --
PINSKY: Are the members of her defense team other than Jose Baez in her life? Or is everyone scattered to the winds?
BARRINGER: You know, I would say Jose is far more involved. He`s been the one stable person on the team this entire time. Everybody else has come in and out.
PINSKY: I`m going to have to ask you the usual questions. Do you have any information about where she is and what is up with her?
BARRINGER: Not that I`m going to give you.
PINSKY: Make note. That means she knows something. She knows something. So, I`ll have my team descend upon her at the end of this program.
PINSKY: (INAUDIBLE). The other thing I want to ask you, this is off this particular topic for just second. Do you think -- I`m convinced that the prosecution oversold themselves on the duct tape. That to them was the entire story. And when I first saw the duct tape, I thought to myself, it doesn`t -- it could happen after that. I had a ton of questions about it, and why didn`t they see that?
BARRINGER: I`m not sure. I was really happy when they did that for obvious reasons. I think that they can`t substantiate it. And I was hoping that we had have a jury that would be able to follow the forensic evidence closely enough to see that they can`t substantiate it. That there really is. You have to make quite a few jumps to get there.
PINSKY: Why not focus on the manslaughter? Why do you think that they didn`t go after that a little more aggressively?
BARRINGER: I really couldn`t answer you.
PINSKY: That was another witness, yes?
BARRINGER: I think it was. Yes. I definitely think they overcharged her.
PINSKY: All right. Let`s go back to the issue at hand which is her making money. I heard there was a foreign deal. Vivid Entertainment, apparently, had an offer out for her to do a porn. Good job, guys, over at vivid for rescinding it. Thank you for that. Now, if Casey does end up making money off of book deal or interview, she may not get to keep it.
Prosecutors in the case have filed a motion asking for Anthony to pay for the costs related to the Casey`s investigation and prosecution above and beyond the legal minimum. You may have a job again to go out and defend there. This could potentially add up to hundreds of thousands of dollars
Let`s take a look at the breakdown at some of these costs. All of which are currently being paid by you fine folks, taxpayers, in Florida. The jurors` expenses alone are running over $200,000. The defense team expenses are $140,000, most of that was for expert witness and private detectives. I know, Jen, if you may take (ph) issue with that --
PINSKY: And the prosecution expenses are near $100,000. Mark, again, mostly for the expert witness testimony. Mark, do you think Casey is going to get stuck with a big bill at the end of all this?
EIGLARSH: I don`t call it stuck. I think that she absolutely should have to pay those things at a minimum, the cost of the prosecution and the cost of the investigation. That`s not something that just applies to Casey Anthony. I have clients all the time who, as part of a plea deal and/or if there is a conviction, not with me, of course, but if they are ever convicted, they would theoretically have to pay the costs of those things. That`s not uncommon. In this particular case, they`re high, and she owes that back to the state.
PINSKY: Jennifer is shaking her head vigorously. How come? How come not?
BARRINGER: I just can`t fathom why she should have to pay for the charge --
PINSKY: Why should the taxpayers?
BARRINGER: Well, apparently, the state, you know, they`re responsible to the taxpayers. They decided to overcharge her. They lost their case.
PINSKY: Mark, what do you think?
EIGLARSH: Well, I`m talking about -- hold on. Let me just made clear which costs I`m referring to. The costs of the investigation for those convictions that they have against her, the lying, absolutely the cost of the investigation. Now, the cost money that went to her for her defense while she was indigent, perhaps, a different story legally.
But for sure, the four counts for which she was convicted, the lying, the cost of the investigation, based on those lies, what they had to do, absolutely morally and legally, they have a right to recover.
PINSKY: But you, Jennifer, say she`s going to make a lot of money so she may be able to pay for those costs.
BARRINGER: She may. You know, I have no opinion on whether or not I`m going to watch something like that.
PINSKY: This is a case that had tremendous disdain in the public. What motivates a defense attorney to go down and go I think I`m going to defend that girl? Is?
BARRINGER: You know, originally, it is exactly that. It`s because I don`t like the idea of people being convicted in the court of public opinion and having a hard time getting a fair and impartial jury in which apparently she did.
PINSKY: She had a hard time getting it?
BARRINGER: Yes. We had to go to another city. Of course, she ended up getting it. Of course, so, initially, that`s why I think a lot of attorneys are interested in doing these types of cases. That`s why we`re defense attorneys. I`m sure Mark can talk to that.
PINSKY: Mark, do you go down and chase cases like this?
EIGLARSH: No. And let me just say this. I think a lot of lawyers signed up on this case because it was high profile. And some, I believe, genuinely were all about protecting her rights, but candidly, most were in this case because, look at the benefit to their career, the opportunities after the fact.
There are literally hundreds of Casey Anthonys throughout the country right now who don`t have the big high profile case but did allegedly kill their own children. Where are the lawyers lining up to help them?
PINSKY: OK. Mark, thank you for joining us, Mark. Last word to Jennifer. Jane is going to stay with me. Jennifer, last word. Twenty seconds.
BARRINGER: Yes. We often do, certainly. And the fact is a lot of the lawyers on this case ended being and then leaving already have its high profile experience. There was nothing that I was going to gain from this. I`m getting death threats. We`re all getting death threats. This is not going to be like the check mark on my resume. That`s for sure. This is the one that I have to explain it away. So, yes --
PINSKY: Are you proud having been a part of it even though you have to explain it away?
BARRINGER: I`m proud of having been a part of it, but I do have to explain it away. Yes.
All right. Next, hundreds turn out to pay their respects to Caylee Anthony. Please, stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is closure for me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Me, too.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Knowing that Casey is out, truly, it`s not my business. I`m here to support Caylee and to remember Caylee on this day and not focus on Casey getting out of jail. This is Caylee`s day, not Casey.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
PINSKY: Just hours after Casey Anthony was released from jail, hundreds of people showed up at Caylee Anthony`s memorial site to pay their respects to the little girl. And participate in a peace walk for Caylee they`re calling it. Organizers hope to get the community to focus on Caylee and not the media attention surrounding her mom`s release. They stopped at the Anthony family home and prayed. Listen to the organizer of this event.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wanted to bring the community together and just go through the process of grief and kind of let this be that last stage where people can really close this out now and move forward and let little Caylee`s memory live on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is this a closure?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a closure. This is -- as we were saying before, starting today, it just doesn`t matter anymore. The verdict is read. It`s over. What`s done is done. Somebody else will take care of it in the end, and we just needed to all say our goodbye.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If Caylee was the chosen angel to help other children find their way home, then she had a terrific job, and she`s fulfilled that job on earth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Well done to the Orlando community. I had a caller earlier tonight who asked what can be done. These are the kinds of things I was talking about. Back with me is host of HLN "Issues," Jane Velez-Mitchell. Now, Jane, the community does not want to forget this little girl and what she stood for for them, do they?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: No. And you can see emotionally the people who participated in that march are so different than the angry people who showed up at the jail. And I`ve said all along, there are different types of protesters, as it were.
There are people who were just attracted by the negative excitement and the drama, and there were others who have really thought about this in depth, and they want to use this as a spring board to make some positive changes, whether it`s Caylee`s law or some other legislation, or just remind people to take every second they have with their child or grandchild as if it`s the last, because sometimes, it is the last.
PINSKY: That`s right. Cherish these moments. Were the Anthonys asked to participate in this? The parents, George and Cindy?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: No. And I don`t know that they were or not, but I will say this. The only thing that kind of disturbs me is them going to the Anthony home. The Anthonys really want to be left alone. They want their peace and quiet. And I`ve been down there. The place where the remains were found is literally around the corner. It`s so close, which is one of the reasons why everybody is wondering why on earth they didn`t find the child sooner because it is the obvious place to look.
The Anthonys want their peace and quiet and serenity, and having 200 people show up their front door, even if they`re well meaning, I don`t think that`s welcomed. These people want to be left alone to heal. They`ve been through hell. And so, I would say, now, that these folks have their closure, they should really leave the Anthony and their home alone.
PINSKY: And Jane, let me ask you this. Are there plans on the part of the organizers to make this an annual event?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t know about that. I think that this was a community event that I saw posted on a tree at the remains site. With all the dolls and all the stuffed toys, there was a sign that said let`s not forget Caylee. And we`re going to march on Sunday on the day that Casey gets out, and please join us. And it was that simple.
So, I think this was a very spontaneous thing, because people are afraid that Caylee will be forgotten in all the madness. And I think they`re also very afraid that Casey Anthony is going to become one of these celebrities, negative celebrities --
PINSKY: Well, thanks, Jane. Thank you, Jane, I appreciate it. Thank you for watching. We`ll see you next time.