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PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT
Interview with Nancy Grace; Interview with Daniel Baldwin
Aired July 22, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PIERS MORGAN, HOST: Tonight, a woman at the center of the case that transfixed America and the world.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As to the charge of first-degree murder, we, the jury, find the defendant not guilty.
MORGAN: Now she finally tells her side of the story. That's Nancy Grace.
NANCY GRACE, HOST, HLN'S "NANCY GRACE": The devil is dancing tonight.
MORGAN: Tonight, I'll turn the tables and cross-examine Nancy on the Casey Anthony trial.
Also, my exclusive interview with Daniel Baldwin, why he got a restraining order to keep his wife away from their two small children.
DANIEL BALDWIN: You will never know, I hope, Piers, what it is like to have a three and a half year old child come into your bedroom and say, is mommy going to kill us? Because she heard her mother say that.
MORGAN: Daniel Baldwin, exclusively. He tells the whole shocking story.
This is PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT.
Casey Anthony is a free woman after a jury found her not guilty in the death of her 2-year-old daughter.
No one is more outraged by that verdict than Nancy Grace. Her new book is "Death on the D-List." And Nancy Grace joins me now.
Nancy, you followed the story probably more closely than anybody else, and you were clearly pretty outraged by the verdict. At the same time, you reiterated your faith in the American justice system.
So what do you think went wrong here?
GRACE: Well, Piers, number one, thank you for having me. I guess that at this point, knowing that tot mom has walked free, leaves more of a sense of extreme disappointment, a feeling of being let down. Because those of us that have devoted I would say my entire adult life to public service -- well, since the murder of my fiance back in 1979 -- to see a miscarriage of justice in a system that we hold so dear -- I mean, Piers, the justice system is something that I've held on to and believed in since Keith's murder many years ago.
And to see it fail is deeply upsetting to me. Amidst claims that she's fielding million-dollar offers and is considering plastic surgery and marriage proposals, it's very upsetting, Piers. It's extremely upsetting.
MORGAN: I mean here's the thing, Nancy, playing devil's advocate here because I could tell the passions are running high throughout your coverage --
GRACE: Of course, you're going to play devil's advocate.
GRACE: I'm ready. I know what that means.
MORGAN: Well, listen, I mean you had an extraordinary run of success covering the trial. You made it your own. HLN had fantastic ratings. And you know --
GRACE: Whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I didn't make anything my own. This story is not my story. This story is Caylee's story. And I remember the night that we first heard about the case. Every day, every morning around 5:00 a.m., between 5:00 and 7:00 a.m., I get a list of about 70 to 80 cases.
I start reading them along with my executive producer, Dean. We go through those and many, many others. We go to every Web site, every news outlet to find the case we're looking for to cover that night. And when I heard the tot mom's story, I heard about Caylee, I said that's it. That's the case we need to do tonight. That one. And my EP agreed.
That was a long time ago. But it's not my case. This is Caylee's case. And it is every parent in America's case. As a warning.
MORGAN: I suppose the question from me to you as a legal brain is the inconsistency really between continuing to support the system if you feel that it failed so much. What would you do differently in light of this trial, given that you believe it's such a miscarriage of justice?
What else could be -- I mean, you know, I'm going to be fair that we do --
GRACE: Piers, Piers, Piers, come on.
MORGAN: Hounded mercilessly.
GRACE: You're super smart. Here's the deal. That's just like somebody saying yes, I believe in God but I don't want to go to church because I hate organized religion. What a line.
Look, the justice system is made up of people. People have faults. It's not perfect. When I tried cases in Intercity Atlanta for a decade, I went to every jury trial, knowing it was a crapshoot. Knowing it all depended on the jury that I put in the box, the 12 I put in the box, and -- whoa, that's old. But it was a scary thing for me, because I was always convinced that I could lose the case, and there would be a miscarriage of justice. And there was one here.
Does that mean I don't believe in our justice system? No. To believe in our justice system and hold it dear, you accept it, warts and all.
MORGAN: I get all that. I've made it very, very clear in my coverage of this that I just don't know anybody who would not report a missing child for 31 days. That alone is appalling negligence. And I don't really buy into the post traumatic thing.
I know there are some experts that believe this has been done before. I can't remember any case like this. So I'm totally with you on her failings as a mother, the appalling negligence, the fact that she didn't report it, the fact she went partying, all that stuff.
But here is where I have a slight issue against your position. And it's involving the system itself. The jurors have been taken a lot of flak. Some of them have been hounded away from their homes, which I think is reprehensible.
GRACE: You mean one of them. Wait a minute, one of them. Let's get the facts straight. There's only one juror.
MORGAN: The point I am going to make is this: 90 percent of all of the legal experts I've had on, when I have really pushed them, all said there was not enough hard evidence to link her to the murder of her child. Lots of circumstantial evidence, and the beyond a reasonable doubt element is the one that is clearly the debatable point.
But none of them would blame the jurors for failing to be absolutely certain that she was directly, inexorably to the murder of that child. You don't agree with that. Why?
GRACE: OK. Number one, to my knowledge, there is one juror that voluntarily quit her job and says she doesn't want to go home because she is afraid. Afraid of what? She hasn't had a single threat. No one has said a word to her.
Did she voluntarily leave her job, or does she think she is she going to do a tell-all book and make a lot of money? I would inspect her motives.
So there's not a lot of jurors or even several jurors that have been hounded out of their homes. That's number one.
Number two, I don't know who the legal experts you've had on are, but having tried over 100 cases and taken guilty pleas in thousands of cases, and argued before state supreme courts, I would be willing to suggest that your experts are wrong, because under our law, circumstantial evidence is deemed equal to direct evidence, such as an eyewitness.
In many, many cases, Piers -- and you know this very well. In many cases, you don't have an eyewitness to a crime. Murders, rapes, child molestations, they don't happen out on the street all the time. They happen behind closed doors. So often there is not direct evidence of a crime.
The state relies on circumstantial evidence, as they did in this case. Now, you're telling me that they don't think there was enough hard evidence. And I assume that you are referring to direct evidence. There was a mountain of evidence pointing to guilt in this case.
And I knew, Piers -- and you can laugh into your fist if you want, but on day two of jury deliberations, when the juror came in wearing a suit that morning, he knew they were going to announce a verdict. And what that says to me is that in less than, say, eight hours, they had gone through weeks of testimony. They didn't even go through all of the testimony before they reached their verdict. And I think that that's wrong.
MORGAN: I agree with you that the amount of time they spent deliberating was completely unacceptable for a case of this complexity. And I would certainly criticize them for that. But I still come back to the main legal point, which, you know, very eminent lawyers have said to me, on both sides of the argument -- many of them agreeing that if had been left to them, they would have convicted, but they could understood why the jury felt there just wasn't enough to be completely certain what had happened.
If I was on a jury, I would want to see from my fellow jurors, wouldn't you? You must accept that?
GRACE: Well, once again, under our American system of jurisprudence, the law is that you don't have to explain to a jury -- although I would like to explain to a jury exactly how a murder occurred, but should a defendant, such as Tot Mom Casey Anthony, get a gold star or a benefit because we cannot determine cause of death, because she had the body hidden for so long it decomposed out in a swamp?
And when I think of this child being thrown out in a swampy, makeshift pet cemetery, for her body to decompose, for animals to pull her limbs apart and gnaw on her bones, why should Tot Mom get a benefit because the child was so decomposed?
The law says she does not. And your question was dead on, Piers. You said a lot of people don't know how it happened. I don't know how it happened. I don't know, did she smother her, did she put tape over her nose and mouth, did she give her too much chloroform? I don't know that.
But I know this child was killed. I know she lied about it, I know she put the child in the car trunk and put tape over her mouth and nose, and she died.
MORGAN: Nancy, look, powerful stuff from you. I would expect nothing else. When we come back after the break, I want to talk to you about Casey Anthony, now she's been released and what kind of life we can expect to see her leading.
GRACE: The sweet life. She had it tattooed on her shoulder, Piers.
MORGAN: Back with my guest Nancy Grace, who is already pretty fired up by this. And I know your passions run high on this. I can only imagine how you felt when you say Casey Anthony walk free. What did you feel when you watched those images?
GRACE: Well, I felt a huge disappointment. And then there is one shot of her where she has this kind of an eerie grin once she gets into the car. And it -- it really just gives you a chill.
What I'd really like to know, Piers, is who foot the bill for that private jet that picked her up at Orlando Executive Airport, and we think deposited her somewhere in California? That's what I'd like to know.
I think I've got a bead on it, that it was somehow connected to a lawyer once on her defense team, that later fell off the defense team, apparently due to Bar complaints. But the bill for the private plane went to the same address as his office. So I think I know where the private plane came from.
Whether she was really on the plane, I don't know. I doubt she's lingering in the Florida area. I think she's going on to the next bigger, better deal out in California.
MORGAN: But simply, should she be vilified now? She's been released. She's through a court case. A jury of her peers has reached a verdict. And on that basis, she has been acquitted of killing her child.
If we respect the legal process, and the legal system, should she now be vilified in public? Or should she be allowed to lead the life she wants to lead?
GRACE: Of course she should lead the life she wants to lead. That's what she wanted to do all along, Piers. That's why she killed her child. That's why she got the tattoo, the Sweet Life. That's why she partied on a stripper pole in a mini skirt and a pushup bra, while Caylee was missing, i.e. rotting. Her child was rotting.
Do you think I could put my head down on a pillow, knowing 15 houses away from where I slept every night, my child was laying in a swampy water muck? No.
So, sure, live it up, Casey Anthony, go ahead. But you're forgetting the justice system doesn't exist in a vacuum. You're forgetting something called the Bill of Rights. I know you Brits don't have that, but we do.
And the very first one is freedom of speech. Now why are you suggesting that the world can't comment on Tot Mom's not guilty verdict and her choice of life-style? Hey, maybe she'll turn into sister -- Mother Teresa, for all I know, and do good works for the rest of her life.
But you know, I'm not a betting person. But if I were, I would bet she's not going to turn into Mother Teresa. And I would bet that she is going to make all the money she can and run right through it in on a high life-style. That's what I think is going to happen.
MORGAN: I mean, the Brits don't have the Bill of Rights, that's true. But nor do we have trial by television. We don't allow television cameras --
GRACE: Trial by television. That didn't happen. Because if that had happened, the jury certainly wasn't listening to me. They came up with a not guilty.
MORGAN: You see, that in itself, I think the jurors then begin to see themselves as kind of bit part actors, because they are being beamed to the world every day. And wherever you've seen these trials by television involving notorious or famous people, the results normally go the wrong way to public opinion and create sort of this kind of frenzy afterward.
GRACE: The results go the wrong way to public opinion? What does that mean?
MORGAN: It means that public opinion had been driven I think by the saturation coverage on television and all of the commentary, so that most people were directed to believe -- and, you know, I'm sure you wouldn't deny the fact you were directing people to think this -- that this woman killed her child.
GRACE: Actually, I have a lot more respect for my viewers than that. I think they can make up their own minds. And also, it's funny that you would say that, because in our Constitution, I guess you can compare it to the legislative history -- the legislative minutes when laws are enacted in our country.
Someone is taking down everything that is being said as laws are passed by Congress. We have something similar to that when the Constitution was written. And our forefathers openly discussed, Piers, how they wanted every courtroom in America to be big enough for the entire community to hear the trial.
So there is no closed-door justice or secret proceedings. The people that watched this trial, including myself, made their decision. Just because it doesn't agree with the jury's decision is a whole other can of worms. But America can listen and hear and evaluate the evidence, just as well as you and I can.
So that was their decision. I'm sure you saw the "USA Today" poll that said two thirds of Americans believe they are guilty. That's their right to have an opinion and voice it.
MORGAN: Nancy, when we come back, I want to talk to you about your days as a prosecutor, and the tragedy that you already referred to that led you to becoming a lawyer in the first place.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We have had people working overtime, triple time, weekends, unpaid. Nothing in it for any of us. Except we believe he killed her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: That was from your days as a prosecutor, Nancy. Got to say, love the hair there.
GRACE: Thank you. Jealous?
MORGAN: Tell me about the -- I also love the fact that even then you could tell that you had this kind of firebrand attitude. Looking at you there, smashing your stick on the table.
You were an aggressive prosecutor, very direct in your eye contact with the juror there. It was clearly something that was a passion for you. I'm assuming that the passion for you was driven not least by the fact you yourself had been through this appalling tragedy with your fiance being killed by a coworker.
GRACE: Yes. There is Keith. He got that black eye from a baseball. Keith was in school on baseball scholarship to get his degree in geology and was almost through. And was working a summer job at a construction site. And he left at lunchtime to go get soft drinks for everyone.
And when he -- when he pulled back into the site, a co-worker that had been fired was angry and had showed up with the site with a gun. And the theory was that he was waiting for the boss that fired him, but when he saw the truck, he just opened fire.
And he shot Keith five times in the face, the neck and the head. Keith was still alive when he made it to the hospital. But he did not live.
MORGAN: I can see even now, Nancy, this is clearly a hugely traumatic part of your life. It makes you very emotional. I'm not surprised to talk about it now. And seeing these pictures of you and Keith together must bring back all sorts of memories for you.
What happened to him spur you on to do? When you remember your feelings at the time, did it drive you on to finding justice for others? Was it as simple as that?
GRACE: You know, Piers, it's so complicated. I actually very rarely discuss it I -- other than alluding to it briefly if I'm asked questions about it. You know, Piers, people always talk about closure. And they throw that around as far as Cindy and George Anthony now. They have closure. It's all over.
There is no closure. It's like breaking your arm. And you never get it set. But you learn to flip a pancake or sweep the floor, not the way you did before, but in a different way.
Yes, it affected my life. I went nearly 30 years without being able to really seriously entertain marriage or a family. In fact, the word "marriage" would actually give me -- I would physically have a shake when it was brought up. And I remember it was like a dark swirl after his murder.
I couldn't eat. I couldn't drink anything. I lost down to about 89 pounds. I dropped out of school. I was at my parents' home. I couldn't stand to hear the TV, the radio, in the car. I couldn't stand to hear a clock tick.
It was just too much. And I ultimately -- I went to go stay with my sister in Philadelphia. She was a professor at the Wharton School of Business at the time. And I would just sit on a park bench and watch students go by while she was teaching.
And it dawned on me there that I had no idea what law school even was, but that I would go to law school, and that somehow I could make a difference. I had planned to be a English Shakespearean professor, hopefully at a graduate level. And I couldn't imagine being in a classroom the rest of my life. And that had been my dream.
And I'm sorry to say that since that time, I've never had the heart to open up a single Shakespearean play or sonnet. I just can't. That was the different life and a different dream and a different girl. That girl is gone.
But what I have now is a life that's been dedicated to seeking justice and very late in life, God heard my prayers and answered them 10,000 times over by giving me twins and a husband that loves me and accepts me like I am. So it was not what I planned, but God gave me something very different.
MORGAN: Nancy, we'll take another short break. When we come back, I'll talk to you about your new marriage and the children that you have. The way you were able to rebuild your life and propel your career into becoming one of the most high-profile defenders of justice that this country has.
GRACE: Thank you, Piers.
MORGAN: Back with my guest, Nancy Grace. Nancy, before we went to the break, obviously very emotional hearing you can talk about your fiance who was killed. And you alluded to the fact you've been able to rebuild your life now, get married and have children the way you, at one stage, never thought you would be able to do. What do you think? When you get all this attention now -- and you've had all this success and you are so high profile and you get criticized and praised in equal measure. When you get criticized, what do you think is the biggest misconception about you?
GRACE: Oh, Piers, come on, you've been through this, I'm sure. All the criticism and all of the praise, it doesn't -- it's not worth the salt that goes on my bread, because TV is fickle. You can be loved one day and hated the next day. One day, you're getting an award. And the next day, you're getting a death threat.
So what does it al mean? It doesn't mean anything. What matters to me is that I try to do the right thing on air and off air. And what my children think of me and what they'll read about me on the Internet, what my husband thinks about me and my parents and my family, that's what matters to me.
What Keith thinking about me, how I have lived my life since he was murdered. I know he's watching. I know he's cheering me on. That's what matters to me.
MORGAN: Well, Nancy, you've been incredibly honest in this interview, more than I thought you were going to be about that part of your life. And personally, I love watching your show. I think you're a force for good. And I think that you are ballsy and aggressive. But at your heart, you want to bring justice to people like Caylee Anthony. And long may you continue.
Thank you for joining me tonight.
GRACE: Thank you, friend.
MORGAN: That was Nancy Grace. That's all for us tonight. "AC 360" starts right now.
MORGAN: Actor Daniel Baldwin is no stranger to struggles with addiction. But now it's his wife who is making troubling headlines. Daniel says that Joanne Baldwin flew into a drunken rage and threatened to kill him. He filed for divorce and got a restraining order to keep Joanna away from him and their two small children.
Daniel Baldwin joins me now. Daniel, welcome back to the show. This is all very depressing, I would imagine, for you and your family. How has it come to this?
DANIEL BALDWIN, ACTOR: Well, yes. We're trying to recover ourselves emotionally and psychologically from some of the events that took place in the house that led to these papers being filed. But it wasn't, you know, a one off event. I mean, you're right in assuming that there has been a steady build up in this.
Joanne got a DUI a year ago June and was placed on probation and has had some problems with violations of probation previous to this. But let me just tell you something, because we have skated on the Charlie Sheen issue and some other people before on your show. Remember something, the Sheens love Charlie. And the Lohans love Lindsey. And the Baldwin's loved Daniel when he went through his problems, as we love Joanne.
So the filing of these papers were strictly and solely because I needed to protect my children. So, you know, that's why this occurred.
MORGAN: I mean, the papers make dramatic, really. I have got them in front of me here. There is an entry where you said Joanne is highly intoxicated in our home. She gets upset over money and proceeds. To wake both children up by screaming and throwing objects around the house. Joanne throws and hits me in the face with the phone.
Joanne threatened to kill me with a knife and warns me she will eventually kill me, all of this in front of our children. And the very next page -- this is in your handwriting. Joanne came out of our bedroom and claimed she had just watched a documentary on women who killed their husbands.
She explained, and you quote her, "now I know how to do it. I understand why they did it. You have been warned. Move out of this house or I'm going to kill you."
This was said in front of your two children. I mean, pretty extraordinary stuff this, Daniel. How did you feel when your wife said this to you?
BALDWIN: Well, I think -- I think you need to remember, too, that she is, from time to time, what's called a blackout drunk. When she had her DUI, she actually struck another car and hit a man at 40 miles an hour, putting him in the hospital. And she has in recollection of that incident.
So I think she's capable because of what I think is alcoholism of doing things in a blackout that she really doesn't have any memory of and I don't think any control of.
But there lies where being a responsible parent comes in. I've never been on the opposite side of the continuum, Piers. I was the one that blew a relationship previous to this. That was not a good and effective father due to my addiction.
And I have to tell you, the only good thing that has come out of this has been the fact that in the 12-step program, step nine is that you make amends to those that you have harmed, except for when to do so would do harm to them or others. I've had to go back to a number of people in my family, loved ones, and say my God, I'm so sorry. I had no idea what you were feeling.
I knew what I did. But I never had to feel it before. Now I'm on the opposite side of the continuum. And it's just an awful and helpless feeling to watch someone that you love disintegrate. MORGAN: Why are you doing this interview? What do you hope to achieve by speaking publicly about this?
BALDWIN: Well, I'll tell you a few things. Number one, I have been inundated with people requesting interviews that are showing up in my driveway, that are parked in front of my house with news vans with the big satellite dishes on them and everything.
So I thought, you know what, it's time to go to a place where I address this. I get it out there. I -- what were my goals and what it is -- a lot of people have asked why did I file for divorce? The answer to that is she needs to understand that this is an ultimatum now. I can always reverse that or stop that should she decide to get some help.
I'm not going to die in deny her the opportunities that I have had myself. But I need to draw that line in the sand.
To answer your question directly why am I doing this? Because this is a relationship that I've had previous to this situation, where I've spoken about addiction before. I felt very comfortable speaking with you. Not to mention the fact that I watch your show a lot and I think you're very fair.
So I wanted to go into a forum where I wasn't going to be beat up, I was going to be asked both sides of the questions, which I think you do effectively.
MORGAN: I mean, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate having said that with you, because, obviously, you went through a well documented period of substance abuse. You were arrested four times that we can locate for various misdemeanors. You were clearly going through a pretty hellish time yourself.
So in a way, you've been where Joanne is now. And you know how difficult this kind of situation is. What do you hope is the end game here, Daniel? Is part of your thinking on this that if she cleans herself up, you can get back together as a family?
Is this a short, sharp, shock treatment that you have implemented here?
BALDWIN: I won't rule any of those things out right now. Right now, I'm going to stick to the letter of the law. You know, there are certain things you may ask me that I have to defer to Forrest Collins (ph), my attorney here in Portland.
But I think I can kind of answer this question. And that is, no, right now I filed for divorce. I intend on getting divorced. I have a protection order for myself an my children because I cannot control what someone else does. And I am quite fearful of the next time something like this erupts.
It has escalated into physical violence on her part. So I have to do what I have to do. My first responsibility has to be to my personal well-being and, moreover, my children and their personal well-being.
You will never know, I hope, Piers, what it is like to have a three and a half year-old child come into your bedroom and say, "is mommy going to kill us?" Because she heard her mother say that.
Now, of course, I don't believe that mommy is going to kill her, not while I'm there. But is it possible that when I'm out working on something, if I leave them in her protection and under her custody, that she could get intoxicated and do something, or even do something irresponsible by leaving a door open or leaving -- absolutely.
Absolutely. That's very possible. And there lies the on going fear that occurs in my life. Either she's going to drink too much and she's going to act upon some of these threats that she's made? Or is she going to do something incredibly irresponsible and the child is going to end up falling out of a window or something like that?
I'm not going to wait around to find out the answer to that. I'm going to make sure that doesn't happen as their father.
MORGAN: Daniel, it's obviously very troubling time for you and your personal life. When we come back, I want to talk to you about more positive stuff about your extraordinarily talented family and what you're up to at the moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: That looks like a giant grass hopper.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: That was from NBC's "I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here". Daniel Baldwin was in that series with his brother Steven. He's back with me now.
I've had the pleasure of being in a reality show with your brother, Steven, Daniel, and I wouldn't say it was something I would rush to do again. I thought you were quite brave going into the jungle with him.
BALDWIN: Any time that I have to be in a jungle or a situation that there might be danger, I want other people around me, if I'm with my brother Steven.
MORGAN: Go on.
BALDWIN: I was going to say, you did a reality show with Steven. You got a little dose of Steven. I saw you get a little frustrated a few times with him. MORGAN: Oh, God, he drove me absolutely bonkers. I don't know how on Earth you deal with him. I have to say, having said that, he was a good fun and he was a trier. He never gave up.
The interesting things bout all you Baldwins, actually, is you have been through the rough and tumble of life. But you are survivors, all of you, aren't you? Tell me about the Baldwin family ethos. What is it that you say that keeps you all going?
BALDWIN: I think that we have certain things that were instilled in us from my mother and my father as we grew up. We grew up in a town called Massapequa, Long Island, which was affectionately known as Matzoh Pizza, because of its predominant number of Jews and Italians that live in the town.
We were like the Kennedys with no money. We were the overachieving black Irish Catholic family with all these kids that all did pretty well in athletics and grades and ran for student office and everything. And my dad was a high school teacher in our hometown, that taught at the other high school.
So our arch rival, every Thanksgiving day, was my father. He was a football coach at the school that we had to play for bragging rights for the whole town. So there was a real sense of competition and one upsmanship that came in that house, which I think is part of that survival skill that you see in my family.
There's definitely a fierce competitor's edge that lies in all six children, the girls, too.
MORGAN: Now, who are you closest to, would you say?
BALDWIN: I would say I'm closest to Billy. I have a certain understanding with Steven, which is almost more like kind of a fatherly thing. When my dad got sick, Steven was in sixth grade in grammar school. And I was a senior in high school. So I got the football coach at our school to allow Steven to be like our manager.
So Steven would run from grammar school over to our school and spent three or four hours a day with me, my dad being out of the house and dying of cancer. So I have a unique bond with Steven, but I think it's more of a father kind of thing than it is of a brother. It's more evened out to be brotherly now. But it was a unique relationship.
Alec and I were fierce competitors, where Alec is just older than I am. So we beat each other up for everything there was, including food at the dinner table. And that relationship is still very similar. We still are very competitive with each other. It's a constant word game of one upping each other.
But Billy was my next youngest brother. And he and I have a bond because we both played a sport in high school that unless you played it, you'll never know the dynamic of the relationship. We were wrestlers. And when you're in that tiny room, it's something that I can't explain. It's not like playing football together. It's not like playing a -- when you're a wrestler, those relationships you will maintain for the rest of your lives. It's a very close-knit, very small, tight sport.
MORGAN: Funny enough, I was quite keen to wrestle with Steven actually in "Celebrity Apprentice". Possibly to the death at one stage.
BALDWIN: I can see that. I graduated with Steven and my wrestling relationship to now boxing is what I prefer to do with Steven.
MORGAN: Tell me, you mentioned the Kennedys analogy, albeit without the money. Interestingly, Alec has been flirting with politics. And I read his Twitter feed and, in fact, engage with him quite often. He's very political on that. He raises lots of social issues.
You can see a guy, I suspect, mulling over the possibility of a political career. There is talk of him possibly running to be New York mayor. Do you think he's serious about this kind of stuff?
BALDWIN: I think that you have been caught in the -- like many other people, in this web, because I think it has always been a plan of his. There have been open discussions with people for many years now about what would be the most effective way to launch this.
And I happen to have been privy to one of the -- as far as I know -- initial conversations some years ago about where to start. And I think that it would be a brilliant move for him in 2012 to run for mayor of New York. Because in the city itself, he is very, very popular. As you start to branch outside of the city, if you went for governor or senator or any of the things that I think that he would aspire to be, I think that he would run into some stiff competition.
And I think that he would also run into less allies than he would, shall we say, had he run for New York. And also keep in mind, a launching pad to bigger and better offices is surpassed by none when it comes to mayoralships as New York City.
There are people that have been mayor of New York before that in recent conversations have been considered on tickets for president of the United States, meaning Giuliani. So yeah, I think he's definitely more than just thinking about it.
I have a strange suspicion he's going to run in 2012. And I think he'll probably win.
MORGAN: I mean, obviously if you're competitive with him as his immediate kid brother, you've got to start recognizing the appalling possibility that if he ran and became New York mayor, then potentially four or eight years later, you might be hearing the words "this is your brother Alec, you can now call me Mr. President". MORGAN: Well, know, what I've been really thinking about and I'm already looking into, how long would it take me to get my law degree if he goes there? Because it's going to be at least two terms in Gracie Mansion. So could I pull off getting my law degree, so I could be the attorney general when he goes to the White House. I'm thinking about myself here, Piers.
MORGAN: It's all about you, isn't it?
BALDWIN: Of course, at the end of the day.
MORGAN: Well, there's something -- it would be something rather poetic about the no money Kennedys reaching echelons of high-power. You have the people's vote, I think.
BALDWIN: Yeah. I think that there's a lot of people out there. You know, listen, Ronald Reagan -- Alec and I had a laugh when he was made president because it was, well, should we act or should we go into politics? And here Ronald Reagan, arguably, at best a high B level actor, becomes governor of California, which if independent its own nation, would be like the tenth largest economic world power in the world.
He's governor of California for a long run and then becomes two- term president of the United States. This guy wasn't even a great actor. He wasn't, in my opinion, you know, the smartest guy in the world, either. I think Nancy was the brains in the operation.
And this guy becomes president. We laughed and looked at each other and went, you mean we can actually do both? We can actually become actors and then become tired of that, Arnold, boom. If there wasn't a law saying you had to be U.S. born, Arnold Schwarzenegger could probably be the president of the United States right now, which is pretty scary.
MORGAN: I don't know. I think he would have been quite a good president, actually. Daniel Baldwin, I wish you every good luck with your domestic issues. They sound pretty awful to go through for your and your family. I wish you luck with that.
And also luck with your family's aspiration to become the new Kennedys. I'll be watching with interest.
BALDWIN: We'll see what happens. Right now, my biggest issue is continuing to get in good shape, Piers. I'm working very, very hard on my body.
MORGAN: You're looking pretty good next to me, if you don't mind me saying. You've lost a lot of weight.
BALDWIN: I did. I've lost 55 pounds on this incredible home workout system called the Skogg System, Skogg. You can look it up at SkoggSystem.com. It's the most amazing --
MORGAN: Enough of the shameless plugs. Enough of the shameless plugs. BALDWIN: Thank you.
MORGAN: And finally, do send Steven my very worst. He'd expect nothing else.
BALDWIN: I will. I'll tell him that you sent loves and hugs and kisses.
MORGAN: Oh, my God. You've just made my skin crawl. Daniel Baldwin, thank you very much indeed.
BALDWIN: God bless.
MORGAN: That's it for us tonight. "AC 360" starts right now.