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Debt Ceiling Battle Continues; Norway Terror Investigation Continues

Aired July 26, 2011 - 22:00   ET


DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN ANCHOR: Anderson is off tonight.

And there's breaking news in the debt crisis. One of the key players is changing his offer because the numbers don't add up. And the vote on it is now being postponed, pushed forward to Thursday at the earliest. Now, it's already come under fire from members of his own party. Late details in a moment from our White House correspondent Jessica Yellin. Her reporter dovetails neatly with our big question tonight.

"Keeping Them Honest," if a strong majority of Americans is telling Washington they want a deal on the debt crisis, they want these guys to compromise with the other side, they want a mix of spending cuts and tax increases, then why isn't Washington getting the message?

We have got new polling that says all of that. But -- and this is important -- recent polling may also explain why we haven't got an deal yet. We will tell you what we're talking about. In any case, Americans are speaking up today.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good morning, Speaker Boehner's office. How may I help you?


GUPTA: A summer avalanche of phone calls hitting the Capitol. President Obama asked for it in his address to the nation last night. Well, here it is. House switchboards today getting nearly double the volume of normal volume of phone calls, House Speaker Boehner's office reporting as many as 300 people on hold, hold times as long as an hour. Online the same story. Site unavailable. Server busy.

We found better than one in three congressional Web sites either slow or down entirely from all the volume. Also multiple calls to the White House switchboard by one of our producers also not getting through. That's what's happening. And it's unusual. And there's new polling out there on the debt issue from Pew Research.

Pay attention to this -- 68 percent say that lawmakers who share their views should be willing to compromise even if they strike a deal they disagree with. Just 23 percent say lawmakers should hold firm even if it means the government goes into default. Recent CNN/ORC polling is no less striking. By 68 to 32 percent, people say President Obama should compromise with congressional Republicans.

Now, when it comes to GOP lawmakers compromising with President Obama, the outcome is nearly identical, 66 to 33 percent. It would seem that the message is this. Do a deal already. So why then was the message today in Washington no deal?


SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV), MAJORITY LEADER: Democrats will not vote for it.

REP. JIM JORDAN (R), OHIO: I am confident as of this morning that there were not 218 Republicans in support of the plan.

DAVID PLOUFFE, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE ADVISER: Our chief of staff said clearly Sunday the president would not sign that.

REP. MICHELE BACHMANN (R-MN), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This Republican will not vote to raise the debt ceiling.

REID: Democrats will not vote for it. Democrats will not vote for it. Democrats will not vote for it.


GUPTA: Democrats and Republicans both digging in. Senate Majority Leader Reid declaring House Speaker Boehner's two-step debt deal dead on arrival. White House advisers recommending President Obama veto it. Michele Bachmann vowing not to raise the debt ceiling no matter what.

The question is why? Why is there this disconnect between the polling that shows the support for a deal with what's actually going on in Washington? Some of the answers in that same poll. Remember the polling on compromising with the other side? We broke it down further. If you break it down by party you see that Democrats are split 50/50 on compromising with Republicans.

On the other hand, only 37 percent of Republicans say they're in favor of compromising with President Obama to get things done. On both questions independents overwhelmingly want compromise with the other side. Democrats less so. Republicans even less, which may explain why many GOP lawmakers simply aren't budging.

As for Democrats, they could be holding firm because polling shows Americans don't want cuts in Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security. And remember those phone calls? Well, some of them are in fact demanding a deal as President Obama asked for last night, but others are from constituents telling their elected representatives to hold firm, to not give an inch.

Now, tomorrow conservative lawmakers plan a Capitol Hill rally against compromise. And today the anti-tax Club For Growth came out against Speaker Boehner's proposal which was already opposed by the Tea Party Express and Tea Party Patriots. We're going to talk about all of this along with tonight's breaking news. The Congressional Budget Office, which is the main scorekeeper in any budget deal, saying Speaker Boehner's plan simply doesn't add up. Also tomorrow's planned vote on it now pushed forward to Thursday.

Chief White House correspondent Jessica Yellin has the latest on all of that.

Jessica, lots of talk about -- we have been talking about it for some time. And now 24 hours after the president and Speaker Boehner went on national TV to focus their attention, are we any closer? Another day has passed.

JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: In a word, Sanjay, no. And as you just mentioned, the House of Representatives is now delaying its vote on Speaker Boehner's bill.

It's uncertain whether that bill can even get through the House of Representatives. The bill was losing the support of conservative Republicans before the Congressional Budget Office says it doesn't cut as much as promised. So that news doesn't help.

What's happening now is Democrats are waiting. They're just waiting to see what happens with the Republicans' bill before making their own move in the Senate. But the big picture here is that neither the Republicans' bill in the House nor the Democrats' bill in the Senate seems to have the votes to get through both houses of Congress so we're back at stalemate.

But what is it -- and I don't know if you can answer this, Jessica, but what is it going to take to spur some sort of action here, do you think?

YELLIN: Well, that is the big question. But talking to a lot of sources there are two big ideas, two big hopes. First is there's a hope that the U.S. Senate, with its history of consensus building over time, could find a way to strike a compromise. So get it over to the Senate is one answer.

If not, Sanjay -- and I hear this from a lot of people right now and this is scary -- sources say maybe if the market crashes that would force members to cut a deal. Here's why. Remember back in the fall of 2008 when the House of Representatives could not pass the bank bailout bill? They didn't have the votes until the market plunged. Then suddenly they got a bill through.

Well, I keep hearing senior sources say on both sides of the aisle, maybe ultimately you need a similar scenario. They hope that's not the case. They wonder if it might be.

GUPTA: That sounds like my world of medicine, Jessica. People wait for a catastrophe to happen before they act sometimes.

Let me ask you this. As what's happening at the White House, is the assessment starting to come in that this default may occur? Is the White House starting to create a battle plan just in case?

YELLIN: Yes. And they have said as much. The president said he is talking to Secretary Geithner about it. Next week the government has two very big bills to pay. One is a very fat check, around $30 billion, to Social Security. Another is about $87 billion to bondholders.

The Treasury Department is looking at our obligations and they're making decisions about what the government will and won't pay if the debt ceiling isn't raised. And I would also just tell everyone to look out tomorrow. Representatives from the agencies that rate this nation's credit will be testifying on Capitol Hill. We could get a preview of whether they plan to downgrade our credit based on the various plans before Congress. We will see.

GUPTA: We're going to ask David Gergen in just a moment whether that may happen regardless of what happens over the next several days. Jessica, thanks. I know you have been very busy on this.

One other late note as well, "The New York Times" now reporting some flexibility on that August 2 deadline that we have been paying attention to. That deadline was always sort of a Treasury Department estimate on when they'd run out of cash. Now "The Times" is reporting that slightly-higher-than-expected income in taxes could allow that date to slip perhaps as late as August 10. So a little more breathing room perhaps, but still a lot to talk about.

So let's do that with political analysts David Gergen and Gloria Borger, who have also been very busy.

Gloria, I have been watching you all day on this. We know now over the last couple of hours that Speaker Boehner's office, his team is rewriting this bill after the CBO score that came in. They were supposed to be voting on this bill tomorrow. Now it's Thursday at the earliest we're hearing. That's another day...


GUPTA: ... which it seems no one can afford, right?

BORGER: No. Nobody can afford it. It's a big problem for the House speaker.

The House speaker, he wasn't sure he had the votes before. He certainly didn't have the votes after this news. He's promised his caucus. His caucus wants a dollar for dollar kind of a scenario in which every dollar you raise the debt ceiling, you get a dollar in cuts. So he has to -- he has to figure out how to do that. So this delay is not good.

In the end, in talking to sources tonight, it's got to come down to some kind of a compromise between Harry Reid's plan and John Boehner's plan. And if you just look at those plans, you see there are certain similarities. They both have commissions to come back and report and figure out a way to deal with this once and for all. The difference is in the number. And the difference is whether you have a second vote to raise that debt ceiling.

The president says no way. And the Republicans say we're going to need another vote. So there seems to be a place where they can compromise. Maybe it's on the figure. But if you're staring default in the face, sometimes compromises can look a lot better.

GUPTA: So some sort of short-term Band-Aid perhaps?

BORGER: Maybe. Maybe. I mean, we're hearing rumblings of that tonight. Jessica Yellin did an interview tonight with the president's communications director, Dan Pfeiffer, who seemed to indicate that yes, maybe a short-term Band-Aid patch, whatever, could happen as he put it to dot the I's and cross the T's. But what does that mean? Does that mean a week? Does that mean 10 days?

Maybe there is an extra week as Jessica suggests because of incoming revenues to the treasury. That's what a lot of House members think. But this is still not a great situation, Sanjay.

GUPTA: And, David Gergen, given the pushback specifically that Boehner's bill continues to get even before the CBO score from members of his own party, how likely is it that there's going to be any sort of compromise or any debt limit at all can pass the House?

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: That's a very good question, Sanjay.

And it's clear now that we have not just a financial crisis that's building up in this country but a political crisis. And that is whether those we entrust all this power to can lead the country or whether they're going to be the first generation in history to really squander our AAA credit rating, for example.

I think there was bad news today with the revolt coming from the House Republicans. It's such a stiff resistance. And what's important about it is it's coming from Boehner's right, the speaker's right. Which means, Sanjay, that the compromise, you have got a runaway caucus in the Republican side in the House. And the compromise has to be good enough in effect to get enough of those caucus members and Democrats to pass it in order to get a solution.

Having said all that, Sanjay, I do think we should not lose hope. I think the odds still slightly favor ways to avoid a default. As Gloria points out, the two plans that are emerging, Democratic and Republican plans in the Congress, do have similarities. There are quiet conversations, urgent conversations now going on among the leadership in both parties on Capitol Hill. And there is a real prospect for some sort of extension of this fight.

I think the White House, when push comes to shove, there are indications that the White House, if there is some sort of agreement sort of shaping up after both these two plans die toward the end of this week or over the weekend, the White House might well extend for a couple of weeks and let this fight play out.

GUPTA: And David, I'm going to ask you this in a second as well. But, Gloria, let me ask you because I heard some of your interviews earlier today. If you break this down, there's lots of numbers here. I have been trying to crunch them myself. But aren't the Republicans ultimately getting most of what they wanted in all this?


GUPTA: So what's the real problem? What's the hangup?


BORGER: Declare victory and go home, right? The interesting thing right now is that tax increases, at least right now in the short term, are not on the table. They may have to come as part of a long- term deal if that's what a deficit commission would decide.

And then that would get voted on. The difference between the plans is just a matter of whether you have an extra vote and a matter of a number. And John Boehner is now going to have to reduce his number, probably, if it's going to be dollar for dollar. And that would mean another vote on the debt ceiling coming up sooner. Harry Reid's proposal is a larger one, $2.7 trillion, to get you through the election.

GUPTA: Right.

BORGER: And so there's got to be a way to work that out. But Republicans have gotten an awful lot of what they asked for. Because taxes are not on the table. And remember, Barack Obama originally said, I want a clean debt ceiling with no deficit reduction attached to it. And that's not happening. So they have won that argument.

GUPTA: And, David, do you have a comment to that? I mean, again, there's a lot of what seemed to initially have been part of the debate seems to have been achieved by the Republicans when looking at these plans. Why isn't it happening? Why don't they as Gloria said just declare victory?

GERGEN: Well, because they honestly feel that while the deals do tend to favor them they're so modest, that's not what they came to Washington to fight for, especially members of the Tea Party. They feel once again that Washington is sort of finding the easy way out and not facing up to the really tough choices.

After all, neither of these plans as presented takes on entitlement reform. Neither of these plans as Gloria mentioned really does raise taxes. That's not something the Republicans want. But if you think of the tough choices, Sanjay, that every expert thinks we have to make they're over entitlements and they're over taxes.

And neither of these plans does that. And what's emerging at the end of the day, unless there's some miracle and we go back to a grand bargain, which would be wonderful and have a really big agreement, that would also hold off the credit card -- I mean, the credit rating agencies, the likelihood is we're going to come out with something fairly small.

BORGER: And I don't think -- I don't think we can say it enough that there's a real missed opportunity here. I think there was a real opportunity to get something serious done on a larger scale, and for whatever reason and clearly political it fell apart. And I think there's plenty of blame to go around.

GUPTA: Whether the deadline is August 2 or the 10th as it turns out, I have a feeling we will all be convening again to talk about this some more.



GUPTA: David Gergen, Gloria Borger, thanks a lot.

Want to know how you think about this at home as well. We're on Facebook. Also follow me on Twitter @SanjayGuptaCNN. I will be tweeting all night. I want to hear from you.

Coming up though we will take a look Inside the mind of a troubled man who admits to bombing a credit office building and then gunning down dozens of people. What turned him into this Muslim- hating zealot bent on touching off a holy war? We're going to dive into that.

Also tonight, late new developments in the trial of polygamist leader Warren Jeffs. We will fill you in on that and introduce you to some of his follower whose remain loyal even though he's behind bars.

First, let's check in with Isha Sesay.

ISHA SESAY, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Sanjay, there are new developments as well tonight in the Casey Anthony story. The trial judge not at all happy with some of what's being said about the jurors and their decision to acquit on the major charges. So he's taking action. We will tell you about that and a whole lot more when 360 continues.


GUPTA: Up close tonight, the latest on Norway's deadly terror attacks. Police today released the names of four of the 76 victims, their ages ranging from 23 to 61.

Three of those identified died in the bombing in central Oslo. The fourth was gunned down in a massacre on that small island where a youth camp being run by the ruling Labor Party literally became a bloodbath.

Police aren't saying how many people are still missing on that island. They promise to release more names as victims' families are notified.

About 60 miles north of Oslo today, police detonated explosives found at a farm belonging to Anders Breivik. That's the suspect who has confessed about the attacks. No word on the type or the amount of explosives that were found.

As for Breivik, who is a 32-year-old Norwegian, tonight he is being held in isolation in an undisclosed location. His lawyers said he's undergoing a medical examination. And they also said -- quote -- "This whole case indicates he's insane." That, of course, will be for medical professionals to determine. And they are going to have plenty to consider. Here's what we know so far, though, much of it from the suspect himself.


GUPTA (voice-over): Fueled by drugs and a profound hatred for Islam, Norway's most notorious killer wanted to push Europe into war.

GEIR LIPPESTAD, ATTORNEY FOR ANDERS BREIVIK: He said it was necessary to start a war here in Europe and throughout the Western world.

GUPTA: His lawyer says his client didn't think he would live through the rampage.

LIPPESTAD: He thought he would be killed after the bombing, after the action in the island, and he also thought he would be killed.

GUPTA: But Anders Breivik did survive. And now the world is asking, what drove this man to commit mass murder?

This rambling, 1,500-page manifesto allegedly written by the killer himself details how he would carry out the attacks, down to the song he would play on his iPod during the killings, "Lux Aeterna" from the movie "Requiem for a Dream."

"I'm pretty sure I will pray to God as I'm rushing through my city, guns blazing, with 100 armed system protectors pursuing me with the intentions to stop and/or kill," the manifesto reads. And as if playing a video game, the writers continues: "I have no intention to surrender to them until I have completed all three primary objectives and the bonus mission."

LIPPESTAD: He has a view on reality which is very, very difficult to explain.

GUPTA: The manifesto also reveals details about the writer's personal life in a lengthy Q&A. It's not clear who's asking the questions.

"I consider myself to be a laid-back type and quite tolerant on most issues," it reads. He says his parents got divorced when he was only 1. His father and stepmother were diplomats and his stepfather is a retired military office who spends a lot of time with prostitutes in Thailand.

He has a good relationship with his four half-siblings, according to the document, but especially with a sister who moved to Los Angeles 14 years ago. As a teenager the writers says he enjoyed hip-hop music, break dancing and scrawling graffiti. His best friend growing up was a Pakistani Muslim.

So what finally turned him into a crusader against Islam? The NATO campaign in Serbia. "It was completely unacceptable how the U.S. and Western European regimes bombed or Serbian brothers. All they wanted was to drive Islam out by deporting Albanian Muslims back to Albania," the manifesto reads. It says he became estranged from his dad when he was 15 years old. Breivik's father is now retired and living in France.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): It's impossible to explain. He was just like other boys of his age. I'm not sure what more to say. He was a bit withdrawn. He wasn't very sociable in a way. But he had no extreme tendencies in the period I knew him.

GUPTA: Breivik's father didn't want to show his face on camera, but he didn't shy away from what he really thinks of his son.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): In my darkest moments I think that rather than killing all those people he should have taken his own life.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you feel guilty in any way or responsible for what's happened?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I feel shame and grief for what has happened. I really wish it undone. But it has happened and it's horrible to think about. I'm going to live with this for the rest of my life.

GUPTA: Lifelong horror and grief, something that the victims' families and survivors may know all too well.


GUPTA: Digging deeper now, Nic Robertson was at Anders Breivik's farm today as police detonated explosives that they found. And he joins me along with Thomas Hegghammer, who studies violent Islamism. He's a fellow at the Norwegian Defense Research Establishment and also at New York University's Center on Law and Security.

Let's start with you, Nic. You were already at the farm when these explosives went off. What did you hear? What can you tell us about what happened?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the farm is in a very remote place. It's about two hours drive north of Oslo and it's down by a riverside. And the explosives seemed to be detonated about 50 yards from the buildings of the farm and we're very close to the river. And there was just a very loud explosion, a huge cloud of dust came up.

But what's happening on that farm, this forensics search for the fertilizer that Breivik was using or is alleged to have used to make these bombs is critical to the investigation right now. Because the police are trying to account for all the fertilizer that he purchased. And if they can't account for all of it, then the implication is there could be more out there and there could be bombs out there, in fact.

That's the concern.

GUPTA: So they would be trying to find those other bombs if need be.

You also learned a lot about the mind-set of Breivik today by speaking to his lawyer. What's the latest that you have learned?

ROBERTSON: Well, the lawyer says that he's seen him three times and for several hours on each occasion. That he's tired since he's been in jail, that he's in solitary confinement. He's disappointed that it was a closed court hearing on Monday.

But the lawyer says -- and it was interesting to watch him sort of struggle for words. The lawyer was really struggling to describe Breivik. People asked him several times and he said, I have never met anyone like this before. He really communicated that Breivik is substantially different, even went on to say that he was, in his opinion, he must be insane to have committed these acts. But he did say he's still waiting to go get a proper medical analysis of Breivik's mental condition.

GUPTA: That's something we seem to keep hearing other and over again, Thomas, that this is a very unusual situation. You say that if in fact Breivik acted alone, this would be a really remarkable sort of act of terrorism, very unusual. How so?

THOMAS HEGGHAMMER, NORWEGIAN DEFENSE RESEARCH ESTABLISHMENT: Well, so-called lone wolf terrorism is extremely rare. Usually there are more people involved.

But even when you have lone wolf terrorism, the outcome is much smaller. The attacks are less lethal. Here you have an enormous attack carried out by what seems to have been a single person.

GUPTA: Yes, and meticulous planning. It's remarkable to look through that manifesto, nine years' worth.

Nic, are you hearing anything more on that? Are authorities working with the belief that he was in fact a so-called lone wolf?

ROBERTSON: He's saying that he has got other cells out there who are going to carry on the attacks.

I talked to the head of Norwegian intelligence today. She told me that she doesn't believe really believe that, but her analysts and the police are working to check it out. And they say that this is a very dangerous allegation that he's making, that there may be other people out there who might connect with these other fertilizer or the bombs that might be out there.

So, of course, this is a concern for them. But they are very worried that they understand this man and that they understand exactly whether or not he was alone. And the reason that they say he was able to get away with this by himself and plan it for so long was because he was so meticulous, that he didn't break the law, that he bought a handgun many years ago, before he went on to get another weapon, before he went on to accumulate chemicals, before he went on to get the farm, which legitimized buying the fertilizers that he used to make the bombs.

Every step, they said, was legal. And that's why he was able to get away with it.

GUPTA: Yes, very hard to have forecast something like this, Thomas, or to have predicted it. He went undetected as Nic pointed out.

In the manifesto he goes to great lengths to say, look, I'm not a racist. He's saying that that wasn't what drove this. You have read a lot of this manifesto as well. What do you think? Was this a racist motive? What was the motive here?

HEGGHAMMER: No, I don't think he was particularly racist. In fact, he says that one of the reasons that he did not join the established far-right groups in a way was that he considered them too racist.

Also he doesn't have very much against Jews or Asians or non- European Christians. I think that what really drove him here was fear of Muslim influence in Europe. This was someone who felt that his civilization, European civilization, was under threat by Muslim immigration.

GUPTA: One of his best friends, as you know growing up was a Pakistani Muslim. At some point in his life he changed. He created this 1,500-page manifesto, meticulous plans. Are you surprised at all that he succeeded? What was the probability that this was going to succeed for him?

HEGGHAMMER: Well, I'm personally very surprised that it succeeded. It's as I mentioned very rare for individuals to be able to carry out this type of attacks.

But what's interesting is that he himself thought very carefully about this. He calculated of probabilities of success. And he himself gave himself a 20 percent chance of carrying out this attack and 20 percent chance of surviving.

GUPTA: It's quite remarkable. And obviously a lot of thoughts and prayers, friends of yours, I'm sure, family in Norway are on our minds tonight. So, thank you very much, Thomas, for joining us. Nic Robertson as well, thank you so much.

And still ahead, a 360 follow on an American teenager turned hit man just 14 years old now convicted of killing at least four people. More on today's verdict ahead.

Plus, "Crime & Punishment," with the sexual assault trial of polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs now under way, we're going to show you how he's been able to carry on business as usual from behind bars.


GUPTA: Isha Sesay is following some other stories tonight. And she joins us now with the "360 News & Business Bulletin."

Good evening, Isha.

ISHA SESAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello there, Sanjay, 360 follow, a congressional report has found that ATF officials kept key details about a botched sting from agents based in Mexico when they raised alarms.

The operation known as Fast and Furious allowed hundreds of weapons to be bought illegally, then smuggled into Mexico. Some were later recovered at crime scenes. At a House hearing today, two federal officials admitted making mistakes during the sting.

Congressman David Wu is stepping down. The Oregon Democrat is accused of making unwanted sexual advances toward a fundraiser's 18- year-old daughter.

Former Illinois governor Rod Blagojevich is asking for a new trial, alleging judicial bias and trial errors. He was convicted last month on 17 of 20 corruption charges

And a makeover for McDonald's Happy Meals. Starting this September, the fast-food giant will roll out a healthier version of its popular kids' meal. Apple slices are being added, and French fry portions will shrink. The company has been under pressure from consumer groups to offer healthier food.

Sanjay, public health experts not entirely convinced, given the fact that there'll still be toys given out with these meals. But I mean, you're a parent. What do you think?

GUPTA: You know, I think it's a good move. And McDonald's actually is the largest purchaser of apples in the country. I don't know if you knew that. Also, you know, an apple a day, Isha. You know what I'm saying? Keep the doctor away? I know I keep turning up in your life like a bad penny, don't I?

SESAY: We love you, Sanjay. You can keep coming back.

GUPTA: You're paid to say that.

Stick with me for "The Shot" now, Isha. These are the dog days of summer, no doubt about it. Severe heat across the country. We've all felt it. So tonight we give you Gus the dog, the bulldog. We found him on YouTube. Take a look.

Gus loves his backyard swimming pool, his wading pool there. Here he is sharing with a friend. But then he gets sort of determined and inspired. An indoor pool, he thinks, would be way better. Way cooler.

SESAY: Going to take it in the house.

GUPTA: He is determined to get that pool inside the house. Maybe his spatial scale needs a little bit of work. But not bad. What do you think, Isha?

SESAY: Not bad at all. But what I really like about this video is how his pal, Gus's pal is like, "You know what? This is a lot of work. I'll just drink the water."

GUPTA: Right.

SESAY: He's having none of it. He's just lapping away at the water.

GUPTA: He may be the smarter of the two dogs there. I don't know.

SESAY: I think so. But he did manage it.

GUPTA: But in all seriousness, in this heat wave I've got to say, as a dog lover, a cat lover, make sure to -- to take care of your pets. Don't forget about your pets.


GUPTA: I'm sorry. I'm sticking with this for a second, Isha, because I want to see if he gets this pool inside the house.

SESAY: Check this out. There you go.

GUPTA: Minus the water. But not bad.

Isha, thanks so much.

Up next, polygamist leader Warren Jeffs is in jail for years. He's now on trial in Texas, accused of sexual assaulting a child. So how is it that he's able to communicate still with his followers and control members of his sect the entire time? We're going to give you some answers

And later, a 360 follow. The verdict of a remarkable trial of a 14-year-old American boy accused of killing for a Mexican drug cartel.


GUPTA: In "Crime & Punishment" tonight, a jury was picked tonight in the sexual assault trial of Warren Jeffs. It's a panel of ten women and two men, and they're expected to be sworn in tomorrow.

Jeffs, as you'll remember, is a leader of a polygamist sect. He has pleaded not guilty in Texas to charges of sexual assaulting a minor as well as bigamy.

Before opening statements are made, the defense is scheduled to file a motion to suppress evidence. This particular case stems from a raid in 2008 at a Texas ranch operated by his sect. The fundamentalist church of Jesus Christ of later day saints which believes in polygamy. At that time, 400 children were removed from the ranch due to fears of sexual abuse.

Jeffs' attorneys have declined to speak about this particular case. And this is not the first time Warren Jeffs has had a run-in with the law. He's been arrested many times and was tried in Utah in 2006, charged at that time with being an accomplice to rape. He was convicted, but the case was overturned on a technicality. And now his fate is in the hands of this Texas jury. And his followers remain loyal, even though he's behind bars.

Here's Gary Tuchman.


GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): El Dorado, Texas. This tiny town is where Warren Jeffs is now in jail as he stands trial. And while Jeffs has been here, he's done one thing above all else. He's spent a lot of time on the phone.

(on camera) In this past month, how much money has he spent, would you estimate, on phone cards to make phone calls?


TUCHMAN (voice-over): And a similar pattern when he was, for a time, in a different Texas jail, a few dozen miles away.

(on camera) So do you know how much he spent on phone cards?

SHERIFF JEFF GARNER, REAGAN COUNTY, TEXAS: I would say probably in excess of 10,000.

TUCHMAN: Ten thousand dollars in the four months he was here?

GARNER: Correct.

TUCHMAN: And is it unusual to spend that much money? Have you ever had an inmate spend as much money on phone cards?

GARNER: No. No, we haven't had.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): Authorities tell CNN Jeffs has been given cash by his loyal followers to pay for the calls. And jailers say they monitor what's said. Mostly lengthy sermons and detailed instructions to his followers a few miles away at his isolated Yearning for Zion Ranch, as well as to his followers in the twin polygamist towns of Colorado City, Arizona, and Hilldale, Utah.

If that sounds like he's still running the church from jail, he is. Insiders say he's even been excommunicating those who disagree with him.

But what it hasn't done is stop a growing feud between those who still believe in him and those who now believe he's a child molester.

WILLIE JESSUP, FORMER JEFFS FOLLOWER: I would like all of you to think if he was standing here today...

TUCHMAN: Three years ago, Willie Jessup was one of Jeffs' most trusted lieutenants. He even showed me around the compound in West Texas that was raided by Texas Rangers to show CNN there was nothing inherently bad taking place.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's a real carrot.

TUCHMAN: Today, Jessup says Warren Jeffs has betrayed his church.

JESSUP: He said he's a very wicked man, and he confessed to doing some very terrible things, including molesting his daughter and his sister and others. And I think his own words describe himself more than I would care to characterize it.

TUCHMAN: Jessup is talking about diaries submitted as evidence that he says were left by Warren Jeffs after his arrest in Las Vegas five years ago. He's talking about these. Pictures showing Jeffs embracing and kissing young girls no more than 12 or 13 years old, Jessup says.

JESSUP: His conduct will never be sanctioned by me. I don't think there's anyone in my church that will ever sanction what he has done. It's just a matter of time until they come to terms and figure out how to cope with what he has done.

TUCHMAN: According to authorities in both Texas and Canada, Jeffs orchestrated what Canadian police have called a child trafficking ring, sending as many as 30 young girls, ages 12 or 13, from a polygamist compound in British Columbia across the U.S. border to FLDS enclaves in Utah, Arizona and Texas.

DAN MOSKALUK, ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE: This is a very serious allegations here, where essentially, in layman's terms, we're dealing with the exploitation of children, of young girls, for sexual purposes and the procurement of sex with girls under the age of 18.

TUCHMAN: Officials of the mainstream Mormon church reject Jeffs and his practices.

(on camera) Hi.


TUCHMAN: How are you today?


(voice-over) But those who support Jeffs, like this 18-year-old we met while she was selling coffee and juice in Colorado City, Arizona, have no doubts whatsoever.

(on camera) Tell me -- tell me what Warren Jeffs means to you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't know what you mean by that. TUCHMAN: How important is he to you?


TUCHMAN: He's everything to you? And are you married yet?


TUCHMAN: Do you want to be married someday?


TUCHMAN: And do you want to -- do you want to have sister wives, too?


TUCHMAN: Like how many sister wives would be perfect, do you think, in your family?


TUCHMAN (voice-over): Gary Tuchman, CNN, Colorado City, Arizona.


GUPTA: Let's get more perspective on this now about Warren Jeffs and his fundamentalist polygamist sect from Michael Watkiss. He's an investigative reporter at our Phoenix affiliate, KD -- KDVK. Right now he's in San Angelo, Texas.

Thanks for joining us again, Mike.


GUPTA: Just listening to the end of that piece, you know, we just heard from that 18-year-old girl, a young FLDS member. She still wants a polygamist lifestyle. Other people do. What's your impression? Have the allegations of abuse changed the mindset in that particular community at all?

WATKISS: Not at all. And I think that the man that Gary Tuchman interviewed, Willie Jessup, saying that this doesn't representative the church is once again just a bold-faced dishonesty. This has been the track record of this community for generations. I've been telling these stories for a lot of years, Doctor. And you know, the story is not -- the theme is the same. They've been marrying these underage girls. Things have gotten significantly worse, make no mistake about it, under a megalomaniac like Mr. Jeffs.

But this is the track record of the FLDS community dating back for decades. The stories are there. None of these are new. Trafficking from Canada and across the international line, the stories we've done a decade ago. The truth is out there. My hope, as sort of an old storyteller of this yarn, is that we finally reach critical mass. And with this, people with the attention span of the American public will not be immediately diverted. We'll realize that this is the modus operandi of this group and that law enforcement wherever these people have set up shop will take note and start going after the men, prosecuting the women.

When they throw their young boys out onto the street, go get them for child neglect. When they fleece the government, as they call bleeding the beast, go after them. Because this really has become a criminal enterprise. None of this is new.

GUPTA: I got to ask about that 18-year-old girl again as well, Mike. So when you ask for more questions or you ask, you know, people like her more questions, do they believe they're carrying out the will of God? What is driving...

WATKISS: Absolutely. And I think that this is so difficult for many people to get their mind around in a free society like we -- most of us enjoy here in the United States. This is a completely closed culture.

That young woman has probably had very minimal education. She has been told from the moment of her birth that her really only value in this world is to be a righteous mother of Zion. That means accept a marriage whenever Warren Jeffs tells her to do that. And nobody marries in that community unless Warren Jeffs tells them to do so.

That young woman is a classic product of that environment. She believes that Warren Jeffs is God's messenger on earth. She's been taught that from the day she was born. And she -- she's been also taught that if she rejects his teachings she will burn in the hottest points of Hell, a very literal concept in their theology, that you either obey the prophet and your prophet head, your father, marry when Warren Jeffs tells you to do.

And the women, in essence, are sort of uneducated. I don't want to be cruel. But uneducated breeding stock for these people. They don't go out and recruit other people. They grow from within with young women just like what was in that report.

And for men to come now forward and say, "Oh, we're aghast that this was happening in our community" is a bold-faced lie.

GUPTA: Quickly, Mike, how big a deal is this trial? We heard from Gary's report that he's making all these calls, thousands of dollars worth of calls, still essentially controlling this sect. How big a deal is this trial? How big is the fact that Warren -- Warren Jeffs is, you know, going to go through this?

WATKISS: This story didn't begin with the raid. It's not going to end with this trial. It's a big deal. If America finally wakes up and recognizes that, if they turn their backs, these guys will go right back to what they've been doing for generations. It's time for America to make -- you know, make some statements. And if we're really serious about protecting children we need to focus on these folks to a much greater degree.

I could fill an entire show just listing the names of elected officials, law enforcement officials in Utah and Arizona, that have dropped the ball. Members of the media that have turned their backs or done flattering stories. You know, the list of bad guys is very long here. Let's hope that this trial will wake everybody up.

GUPTA: Well, you've been doing some reporting on this for over ten years, like you said. Appreciate you being on, Mike Watkiss. Thank you so much.

WATKISS: Happy to be here.

GUPTA: Still ahead the judge in the case of the Casey Anthony murder trial decides when he's going to release the names of the jurors.

Plus friends and family gather to remember singer Amy Winehouse as investigators work to find out how she died.

And a new interview that's going to give all of you Kardashian gawkers out there even more to love. Anderson has a "RidicuList" classic. That's coming up.


GUPTA: Still ahead, we have a "RidicuList" classic, and it involves the Kardashians, Anderson's favorite. First, though, Isha Sesay is back with a "360 Bulletin" -- Isha.

SESAY: Isha, we begin with a 360 follow. A 14-year-old boy from San Diego was found guilty today in Mexico of torturing and beheading four people and kidnapping three others. Mexican officials say the teen was working for a drug cartel when he was arrested last December. He was sentenced to three years, the maximum for a minor under Mexican law.

A judge sentenced a Georgia woman to probation but not jail time for the death of her 4-year-old son, who broke free from her, darted into traffic and was killed. Raquel Nelson was charged and convicted in his death. Critics blasted the case as inhumane, saying Nelson suffered enough already.

The judge in the Casey Anthony trial will not release the names of the jurors until October or even later. Although he's required by law to identify jurors, the judge said a cooling-off period is needed due to the anger about this case. Casey Anthony was acquitted of murdering her daughter, Caylee, three weeks ago.

And family and friends gathered in London today for the funeral of singer Amy Winehouse. She was found dead over the weekend in her London apartment, where the cause of death is still unknown. Winehouse battled drug addiction for years.

Sanjay, a very sad waste of a lot of talent. GUPTA: Yes. And I know there was some thought that maybe the cause of death would be released yesterday or today. Do they have any idea when that's going to happen?

SESAY: Yes. According to metropolitan police in London, they're now saying that they might not -- they won't know, and the chances -- they won't know what killed or what could have killed Amy Winehouse for something between two to four weeks. That won't be until they get results of lab tests with blood and tissue. So still a couple of weeks to go before we get those results. Even then...

GUPTA: It can take a while.

SESAY: It could take awhile. There's still no guarantee.

GUPTA: A lot of speculation surrounding that, for sure.

Isha, stay with us. Time to open up the 360 archives for a "RidicuList" classic. This one is a perfect fit, because as we usually do on Tuesdays, Wolf Blitzer and I were sitting around drinking smoothies and Googling the latest results on the Kardashians. It's what we do. We came across this article about the family matriarch, Kris Jenner. Mrs. Jenner has opened up to more magazines about the challenges of managing her family's business empire which last year reportedly earned $65 million.

Her job, she says, is to turn Kim and company's 15 minutes of fame into 30 minutes of fame. And that's obviously going to prompt a lot of groans and eye rolls, so we thought it might be a good idea to share with you Anderson's take on what he calls the Kim Kardashian haters.

Don't worry. I made sure this segment has an important medical angle.


COOPER: Tonight we're adding Kim Kardashian haters because of what they've driven Kim to do.

For a while now I've had this unsettling feeling that, I don't know, something just -- it was off, like the universe was slightly out of whack. Something was missing. I couldn't pinpoint the source of the feeling, but then it hit me. No one has really been saying much about Kim Kardashian's butt lately.

Well, Kim remedied that situation quite nicely on last night's episode of "Keeping up with the Kardashians."


KIM KARDASHIAN, REALITY TV STAR: If this is what it takes to shut up the entire world that my butt is real, then I will happily do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: You heard her right. Unbeknownst to me, the entire world will not stop talking about -- will not stop with the cracks about her butt, its veracity, so to speak.


KIM KARDASHIAN: I can't even take this seriously. I've said numerous times, like, I haven't had plastic surgery. I haven't had butt implants.


COOPER: Are butt implants really a thing? I mean, I've always thought they were kind of like snuff films. People talked about them, but has anyone actually seen one?

Any ways, Kim and her sisters have had enough of the lies, and frankly, I don't blame them. Last night in a very unscripted moment on their very unscripted reality show, Kim and the other one were on the computer and found the straw that broke the camel's backside.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tragedy struck Kim Kardashian last night on a private plane from New Jersey to Las Vegas. Her left butt cheek exploded.

They can make up completely fake stories. This is the same Web site that said Kim burned a raccoon.


COOPER: Forget the exploding butt cheek. I want to hear more about that raccoon.

But alas, it's all about the bun-jamins (ph). With Kim looking on, the other one came up with an idea of how to set the record straight, once and for all.


KIM KARDASHIAN: Who the hell of a normal person gets butt implants?

KHLOE KARDASHIAN, REALITY TV STAR: I mean, if you want to them wrong, get an x-ray and...


KHLOE KARDASHIAN: Of your ass to show there's no silicone in there.

KIM KARDASHIAN: Khloe, I think that's an amazing idea!

(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: It's kind of like watching Edwin Hubble first realize the universe is expanding. But would Kim go for the idea? Would she be willing to put the "ass" back in classy?


KIM KARDASHIAN: I really just want to get, like, a butt x-ray so I can show the whole world.


COOPER: Well, congratulations, whole world. But wait a second. Will an X-ray really help us get to the bottom of this world crisis? I'm thinking that we need some kind of control group. Luckily, the other one being the Marie Curie of her times, has it covered.


KHLOE KARDASHIAN: Can we x-ray Kourtney's boobs so I can see what an implant looks like?


COOPER: I bet when that doctor was in medical school, he dreamed of one day being able to save lives, to really help people. Congratulations.

All this X-raying seems like overkill, though. Anyone who's ever read a comic book knows all you really need to put this to rest is $1, plus postage and handling. But since Kim went to all the trouble of getting X-rays, since she got on the table and turned sideways and held her breath, while the entire world simultaneously held its breath -- let's look at this again -- we might as well hear the results.






KIM KARDASHIAN: I am so glad that I did this X-ray.


COOPER: I think I speak for the whole world when I say, we are so glad, too, Kim. We are so glad, too.


GUPTA: And we'll be right back.