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Warren Jeffs Trial
Aired July 27, 2011 - 21:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go. Polygamous sect leader Warren Jeffs. His jury is in. Twelve jurors, two alternates choosing to decide if he is guilty of child sexual assault. I`m asking how would lawyers defend a seemingly indefensible crime?
And later, the most deceptive liars of them all, the addicts. If you have ever been baffled by their web of lies, you do not want to miss this. Let`s go figure it out.
Warren Jeffs, leader of the 10,000-strong FLDS polygamous sect, now accused of sexually assaulting a 12-year-old. Listen to this. Actually impregnating a 14-year-old. The man may be on trial, but the attention is on the entire group. More details are coming out, reports of corruption, manipulation of government funds, incest -- and incest in some cases.
And of course, more questions are coming up. How do secretive communities like this crop up right beside us? How did this alleged system with abuse in it, with abuse entrenched in it, get so organized and cemented?
The answer is, it takes time, lots of it, and requires that we willfully look the other way. Remember now, this is a secretive community, a century in the making. Now I`m sure we all -- I`m sure you agree, we all cherish ideological freedom in this country. We mind our business, respect our neighbors, you know, freedom.
But there is a limit to this. While we celebrate freedom, we also value what is right. This is about taking care of one another as a country without stepping on each others` rights. It`s a tough balance, but it is possible, and believe me, it is worth it. It`s something we have to pay attention to.
Certain things are OK, and certain things are not. I want you to take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good morning, Mr. Jeffs. Are you ready for trial, sir? Mr. Jeffs, have you ordered your followers to stay away from the courtroom?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is polygamist leader Warren Jeffs entering a San Angelo courtroom today to face child sexual abuse charges of two underaged girls, girls he married. Huge developments today, the court held a hearing on evidence that will be presented at trial, and the judge ruled that all of the evidence from the 2008 Eldorado ranch raid will be admitted, that is, of course, a very serious blow to the defense.
We`ll tell you in a minute precisely why. But first, watch this before we talk.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A jury of 10 women and two men are now seated for the trial of polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A prophet to thousands of people.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s accused of having sex with a 12-year-old girl. She allegedly one of his many wives.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jeffs has pleaded not guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tens of millions of dollars going into a community whose leader is on trial for the sexual abuse of young children.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eighty percent of the members are on welfare.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They are doing it in plain sight, and nobody is doing a damn thing about it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They give their kids up willingly, and they throw their boys out of town willingly so the old men can marry all these young girls.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. Here we go. Live tonight, our good friend and criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh. Also, criminal defense attorney Brandon Hudson. He had represented former FLDS members. And Christi Paul, host of "In Session," our sister network TruTV.
Christi, you`re in Texas covering the trial. What is the latest?
CHRISTI PAUL, HOST, "IN SESSION": Well, you mentioned some of the evidence that is going to be admitted into court. I can tell you some of that evidence includes marriage and birth certificates, as well as personal writings and journal entries of Warren Jeffs himself, and DNA that was collected from those children.
We also learned about the witness list. It looks to me based on what we can see that about 78 people from the FLDS ranch, that`s just 45 minutes from where I sit, are on that witness list. And we`re talking about names like Jessop, Jeffs, and Barlow. Whether they are people that will actually be called, will actually show up, will actually testify against him, we don`t know.
But that`s a pretty big number of people to be called on a witness list, all of whom are part of the YFZ Ranch that`s right near here and where that 2008 raid happened.
PINSKY: Now I understand all of the evidence from the raid will be admitted now. And I assume that`s a pretty big blow to the defense. Are they squabbling about this?
PAUL: Absolutely. And the defense wanted to keep this out. They are in the middle of an evidentiary hearing right now. It ended with court, and they are going to start off the day tomorrow at 9:00 a.m. Central here on that evidentiary hearing again.
As I said, the suppression hearing today did allow all of the evidence from the raid to come in from 2008. But the evidentiary hearing is about evidence from Warren Jeffs`s arrest in Nevada.
And that apparently includes, you know, more than $50,000 that was seized when he was arrested, including wigs, sunglasses, and what seemed to be disguises, and some sort of audio recordings.
And the defense is fighting hard to try to make sure those things don`t come in. That has not been ruled on yet. But of course once that evidentiary hearing is finished, and we expect that to last about an hour, we`ll start hearing from the first witnesses in this case right after opening statements.
PINSKY: Thank you, Christi. That`s very interesting. I had not heard that part about the disguises. We`re seeing video alongside of your commentary there.
Now, Brandon, you represented Warren Jeffs`s half brother, his name, I believe, is Abram. What charges were actually brought against him that you defended him against?
BRANDON HUDSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Abram was charged with sexual assault of a child. And he also has a bigamy charge that has never been brought to court. The sexual assault of a child, we represented him.
PINSKY: And he was convicted of that. Is that correct?
HUDSON: Not the bigamy but the sexual assault of a child, yes. He was convicted.
PINSKY: Now, my understanding is you`ve been saying that you feel like these people whom you have met and I guess spent time with are being unfairly judged in the court of public opinion. Tell me about that.
HUDSON: Well, my statement is I would disagree with the term "unfairly judged." People can make up their mind about how they feel about these individuals. What I see is when we go into Schleicher County, the county where the YFZ Ranch sits, about 40 miles south of San Angelo, and then in Tom Green County, where Mr. Jeffs`s trial is now being held, the people that did not interact with the members of this church didn`t know them, but just had their own opinions formed on what they had maybe read in the newspaper or heard in the media.
PINSKY: Brandon, I want to interrupt you. My opinion isn`t formed on what I hear in the newspaper and what I report here. And I`m a dad. And I`m not sure I would want my daughter when she was 14 spending time around these folks. I certainly wouldn`t have her dating a prophet or in an organization where that kind of stuff was going on. Help me understand this.
HUDSON: Well, first of all, this is not a society or a membership of the church where they want outsiders to be a part of their church.
PINSKY: Well, I understand, I wouldn`t actually be a part of it. I`m just saying, trying to understand and judge what it is they are doing and what they`re up to. It`s hard for me to say they`re being unfairly judged. Mark, I want to go to you. Help me out on this. Am I off base?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, you`re not off-base. And Mr. Hudson is absolutely right. They don`t want outsiders looking in, because outsiders don`t want them raping children. And that appears to be what is systematically going on under the umbrella of religion. Correct me if I`m wrong, Mr. Hudson.
HUDSON: Well, I will correct you, because that`s a generalized statement about everybody in the community. You`re taking a few people that have gone to court, have been tried and convicted. There are many people in this church who have not been charged or tried. We are looking at two different issues. One is that.
EIGLARSH: Well, why don`t we start with Mr. Jeffs. Mr. Jeffs, I mean, they have got DNA, allegedly. I wasn`t there. Let`s give him the presumption of innocence. But if it`s his DNA in the baby, and it`s the 12-year-old`s DNA in the baby, isn`t this a slam dunk? Aren`t we done here?
HUDSON: Are you asking me or Dr. Drew?
EIGLARSH: I`m asking you.
HUDSON: Well, no, I don`t know what evidence they have. I don`t think you know what evidence the state is going to introduce in court. These are speculations that may happen. He is innocent now. I don`t want to comment any further on anything that may take place in court as Mr. Jeffs has a right to a fair trial.
He is innocent in Texas right now. He is facing these accusations. And at the end of the day, they may prove to be true. Those jury may decide to hear that evidence and listen to it and make their own decision. But right now, we cannot assume he did any of those things. And to do so.
PINSKY: I`m just looking at a 14-year-old in the picture. Yes. Go ahead, Mr. Hudson.
HUDSON: Well, to do so is to basically say that everything we have in our jurisprudence system, to take everything in our Constitution, and simply set it aside and say, well, everyone else gets a right to have their day in court, innocent until proven guilty, but in this case, because we have heard about this, we`re going go ahead and say that Mr. Jeffs is guilty. He was found guilty in another court in Utah that was overturned.
EIGLARSH: Hold on. Like you, I`m a former prosecutor, and like you I`m a criminal defense attorney. And I know that the only ones who have to presume or believe that he is innocent would be those jurors empanelled to hear this case.
The court of public opinion can form their own conclusions based on what they hear. Now assuming it`s his DNA in that baby, how can anyone form any other conclusion, especially when we`re looking at these photographs of him having an adult kiss with someone who appears to be a child?
HUDSON: I`m not going to comment on anything further dealing with Mr. Jeffs`s trial about what might or might not have been taken pictures or anything like that. That`s for those jurors and that`s what the is to decide.
PINSKY: All right. Gentlemen, let me jump between you guys here as the ref. I forgot my striped shirt today, gentlemen. But I do appreciate the conversation. I think it is important to protect the process. But I think we are all coming off the heels of the Casey Anthony case, when everyone was very frustrated by the process. And we`re looking at something here that -- I need my Pepto Bismol again, Mark.
I`m looking at an adult man kissing a young teenager. I`m thinking about my own kids. It`s just bothersome, that`s all.
EIGLARSH: Hold on. Mr. Hudson is saying, don`t make judgments. Maybe it was Photoshopped. I don`t know.
PINSKY: I know. I understand. But listen, his caution, his intention is clear, that we need to protect the system, which I still, in spite of being frustrated by Casey Anthony, I still.
EIGLARSH: And I agree with that.
PINSKY: . I hope you both agree, believe in the system. So I`ve got to take a quick break here. I appreciate this panel`s conversation.
Up next, we`ll take a look at who Warren Jeffs really is. Prophet or pedophile. Stay tuned.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIE E. JESSOP, FORMER JEFFS FOLLOWER: And he said he was a very wicked man, and he confessed to doing some very terrible things, including molesting his daughter and sister and others. And I think his own words describe himself more than I would care to characterize it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM "BIG LOVE")
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) is testifying.
HARRY DEAN STANTON, "ROMAN GRANT": Not against me, she won`t.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m afraid she has gone into protective custody.
STANTON: I had a prophecy last night how this would all turn out. I will prevail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Unbelievably, using his calling cards from jail. That was from the HBO series "Big Love," which is all about a fictional FLDS family. And I have always been a fan of that show. But I am now stunned at how close art is reflecting reality. They chronicle a story nearly precisely what we`re all watching here today.
And the sad thing is, this isn`t fiction. This is real life. Warren Jeffs is on trial for the sexual assault of two children, ages 12 and 14. And just in today, a jury has been seated in the Jeffs trial. Opening statements are slated to start tomorrow morning.
Plus, more huge news. Mountains of damning evidence will be shown to that jury, as you heard in our last segment. Here to talk about this is Loni Coombs, a former L.A. County prosecutor. Flora Jessop, a former member of the FLDS. And HLN host of "In Session" on TruTV, Christi Paul.
How much do we really know about this self-proclaimed prophet, Warren Jeffs? Well, let`s talk about that. Our own Christi Paul takes a look.
PAUL (voice-over): Before his arrest, Warren Jeffs led a 10,000- member community that lived and worshipped together in gated compounds. The main communities are located in two towns that straddle the border of Utah and Arizona. Jeffs`s father, Rulon Jeffs, ruled over them as the prophet from 1986 until he died in 2002.
Inside the compound, Rulon Jeffs built Alta Academy, a private, unaccredited school for the children of the church. Warren Jeffs was the principal. Warren claimed himself the prophet of the church after his father`s death. Jeffs`s first official act, remove all FLDS children from public schools.
Jeffs also told church members that men needed at least three wives to get into the highest level of heaven. He ordered the women to give birth every year to replenish the earth. And young men and boys were often thrown out.
PINSKY: All right, Christi. You have been in the courtroom. Describe Warren Jeffs for us.
PAUL: He is not the same man that people might have seen back in 2007 in the Utah courtroom. He is more frail. He`s slumped over. He is sometimes -- sometimes it`s so bizarre, Dr. Drew, because sometimes he`s engaged, he`s talking to his lead defense attorney, and other times it`s almost as though he is in his own little world. He is just sitting, staring at the desk in front of him, not even staring out into space, but he has just got this constant look down about him.
He doesn`t say much. He seems very quiet, sometimes very distant. And it`s interesting, because I talked to another FLDS gal who escaped years ago. Her name is Kathy Jo Nicholson. And she said when she knew him, when he was headmaster of her school, when she was behind the gates with him, he was very charming.
He was very interested, she said, in girls once they hit 10 years old. And then all of a sudden, she said, she could see how he was also very calculated.
PINSKY: Wow. Ten years of age. Flora, why would Jeffs take all the kids out of public school? What was that all about?
FLORA JESSOP, FORMER FLDS MEMBER: Well, the concept behind taking the children out of school is education breeds rebellion. If you have an educated child, you have a rebellious child. Even when I was there going to school as a child, the public school textbooks that we were given had complete chapters cut out of them.
To give you an idea of what the curriculum is, in the -- say health education, the children are taught these are your four basic food groups, and your body is the most evil thing, never touch, never look at it. There`s no science. There`s limited mathematics. Their history is.
PINSKY: Hold on, I`m going to interrupt you. You also mentioned to me that there was physical abuse, there was corporal punishment, was there not? You described some pretty brutal abuse of the young males. Is that true?
JESSOP: Oh, that`s absolutely correct. The physical punishments, they would beat you with a ruler or a yardstick in front of the class. Humiliation is a big part of the discipline within the FLDS in the classrooms as well in order to keep control of you.
One of the things that I would always like to mention is I have been working with numerous children that have come out of the FLDS for years. And I have yet to see a child that has an education over the third grade level under the age of 18.
PINSKY: Very interesting. Very interesting.
So, Loni, here we go. Under the cloak of religion, here`s what seems to be going on. Sexual abuse of children. Weird, inappropriate marriages. Restriction of education to the point of no education, corporal punishment. How does this country -- don`t we have competing interests here? And don`t we have a system in place that`s supposed to protect people from what`s wrong?
LONI COOMBS, FORMER L.A. COUNTY PROSECUTOR: Yes, we call this abuse. We call this slavery, whatever it is. It is these children, taking them out of the public school system, all they know is what Warren Jeffs has dictated they can know. They have no TV, no radio, no outside newspapers, no books.
The only thing they get is an iPod where they listen 24/7 to his words, his sermons that they have to listen to over and over again. Talk about an intense indoctrination. When you know nothing else, how are you supposed to question? How are you supposed to doubt? You have no idea that anything else exists out there.
PINSKY: And then those young girls that are being indoctrinated, they become the moms that help indoctrinate more kids.
I have got to cut and break right here. Coming up, our "Liars Series" returns, focusing on addiction. Janis Dickinson will join us to discuss how lying to yourself can be the worst kind of betrayal.
And next, another part of the mystery surrounding the FLDS. Is this how and where -- the question is this, how and where do they get the money for their community? There`s a very surprising answer about that question, and you`re not going to like it. That`s up next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GREG ABBOTT, TEXAS ATTORNEY GENERAL: If Mr. Jeffs receives the maximum punishment, he should spend the rest of his life behind bars. What it will do is send a message to everyone across the world that sexually assaulting a 12-year-old and 14-year-old girl in the state of Texas will keep you behind bars for a long time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We continue to receive a flurry of responses to our coverage of the Warren Jeffs case. Let us go to the phones live. I have got Ruth from British Columbia, Canada. Go ahead, Ruth.
CALLER: Hi, Dr. Drew. I grew up in the polygamous community in British Columbia, and left the community as a teenager. And I have recently completed a dissertation on the experience of being raised in the community.
PINSKY: And so you`re doing formal research on these types of communities. What`s the most important finding that you would like to share with the audience?
CALLER: My dissertation was a heuristic qualitative research, so it just described the experience. What I found in my nine participants, myself included, is that they perceive the childhood was a positive experience.
Now, this is a community that was associated with the one in the States, but that one is particularly more radical. I found that, unlike some, I had a very good education. I went to public school in grade 11, and had no trouble having all of my 10 years of school in the community. I felt that it was a very positive experience, although I.
PINSKY: Well, let me interrupt you. Let me ask you this. What caused you to leave, and how do you feel about what we`re reporting on today, which seems to be abuses in these environments?
CALLER: I don`t doubt that they`re going on. I left when I was 15 because I was one of the child brides. And after three weeks, I chose, myself, to leave. However, my exit experience does not reflect the women that have been shown in the media. I did not feel like I had to escape. I just left the situation. My mother supported it. I went to public school.
PINSKY: All right. Well, Ruth, I appreciate the comment and the research, and we`ll probably talk to you again.
I`ve got Carrie on the line from Iowa. Carrie, go ahead.
CALLER: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Carrie.
CALLER: I just wanted to make a comment. I believe the women who stay in these polygamous sects are much the same as women who stay in domestic violence of any type, especially for those who are raised there themselves. Their souls have been beaten down and they`re controlled by the men. It`s all that they know.
PINSKY: Well, Carrie, I have to agree with you. That`s what`s so disturbing about this is that it seems to be just that, which, they are inside a closed system that they can`t escape from, much like Duggard. Remember how she was in that perpetrator`s midst and could not flee because it`s all she knew. She can`t imagine being outside of that.
And I agree with you, Carrie. It very much has a similar kind of quality to it, to what we think of as the Domestic Violence Syndrome. So thank you for that comment.
I have got a comment on Facebook, this is Tracy. She says: "I asked last night if the mother should be held responsible. Don`t you think by holding them accountable, these children will still have a chance?"
You know, I don`t know if that`s going to be important to the children in terms of the recovery. It`s more about, again, doing and protecting what`s right and really getting at the heart of what`s going on here, that there are many levels of distortion and almost delusion, let`s call it, in this system.
Finally, Trisha writes: "It breaks my heart to see innocent victims being abused. How does one recover from such horrible kind of cult-like community?"
And I`ll tell you what, it takes time and a lot of work. More than I have to get into right here. But let`s just say, it is an interpersonal experience. It`s something that people have to be very motivated to get well from.
Up next, thank you for your calls and questions, by the way, we follow the money and the corruption. We will talk about how FLDS members pay for their compounds and their families.
Plus, how Warren Jeffs is leading his followers from jail. You will be surprised to learn about all of this. Check it out. We`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): They say follow the money, but for Warren Jeffs, the money follows him everywhere. Millions in government assistance, a staggering portion of his followers are on welfare, and thousands on phone cards so he can pull the strings from jail. Is the FLDS gaming the system? How much are they taking? What can be done?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): And later, liars part two. The addict. That special breed of liar for whom deception is like breathing, constant and essential. We`re going to look at whether people are born that way and whether or not they can, in fact, change.
But now, we`re talking about money and corruption in a community of followers that are nothing but loyal to their prophet, Warren Jeffs. As you know, Jeffs is on trial right now for the sexual assault of two children, ages 12 and 14. Tens of millions of dollars are going into that community. Listen. Tens of millions of taxpayer dollars going into this community that seems to be supporting sexual abuse of young girls, and you`re probably asking yourself, how is this possible?
Now, we`ve learned that Warren Jeffs is still running the church at this moment from inside prison using money from loyal followers. Joining me tonight to talk about this is Loni Coombs, a former L.A. County prosecutor. Flora Jessop who is a former member of the FLDS church. Gary Tuchman, CNN national correspondent. And still with me is Mark Eiglarsh. I`ve got a great panel. There is a lot of you here. I hope I can get to all you, because I have limited time.
Flora, first to you, how do we know how these FLDS members use money from the welfare system? Or what do we know about that?
FLORA JESSOP, FORMER FLDS MEMBER: Well, we do know that they`re getting about $20 million to $30 million, possibly more than that, in welfare benefits, food stamps, that type of thing. But they`re also receiving millions of dollars in agricultural grants as well as they received hundreds of thousands of dollars from Homeland Security to fight terrorism.
One of the other practices that they have is the big construction equipment that they have all over that compound in Texas is -- they go out and finance brand-new construction equipment, take it home, use it for six months, take the new motors out of it, replace the motors with junk motors, and then, let them repossess the equipment, and then, when that goes on the auction block, they buy it back for pennies on the dollar, replace the new motors into it and have brand-new equipment that`s bought and paid for. So, this is just --
PINSKY: Well, Flora, I`m going to interrupt you. I`m going to interrupt you, because the scam part is outrageous, but the part where they`re getting money to tax dollars to prevent -- or to protect against homeland invasion or whatever. Loni, what is she talking about? How is that possible? How is it that our tax dollars and welfare expenses are going into this environment?
LONI COOMBS, FORMER LA COUNTRY PROSECUTOR: I don`t know about the terrorism thing, but I`ll tell you, what happens is the men are legally married to one wife. So, all the other wives that they have are under the law considered single mothers, so they collect welfare as a single mother.
PINSKY: And the more kids they have --
COOMBS: The more money they`re getting. So, there`s a lot of welfare fraud going on there. That`s the mothers, but the church, itself, controls $110 million land trust. And they own a number of businesses. So, there is money there that the leaders have access to, but these mothers, who have all the kids, seem to be living off welfare.
PINSKY: That live in the bunk beds and these sort of cooperatives.
PINSKY: But it`s taxpayer dollars, ladies and gentlemen. So, let`s just -- again, think about this. Your tax dollars are going here. Young girls being married off by their mom, with parents consent. I don`t know how you feel as parents, but again, multiple times during the broadcasts of these shows I need something to settle my stomach. All right. Warren Jeffs has spent thousands of dollars in jail. Here is what he`s doing. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know how much he`s spent on phone cards?
JEFF GARNER, REAGAN COUNTY SHERIFF: I would say probably in excess of $10,000.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: $10,000 in the four months he was here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And is it unusual to spend that much money? Have you ever had an inmate spend as much money on phone cards?
GARNER: No. No, we haven`t had.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And I`d ask the same question. Gary, I`m just a regular guy. I don`t know. It sounds like a prisoner spending $10,000 on the phone is a little bit much, is it not?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It`s a lot of money, Dr. Drew, but he`s been convicted of nothing so far, so he is allowed to use the phone. And what members of the FLDS do is they donate to Warren Jeffs` defense. Much of that money goes to him for his phone cards, and he still leads the church. He`s still the prophet from his jail cell. He actually conducts sermons from the telephone in the jail every Sunday to his followers.
PINSKY: You know, it`s really sad when you look at the children and see how these people live. Mark, most of the money comes from welfare and scams, I guess. I mean, that`s what I`m beginning to conclude. My question is that legal that they get all that money? I mean, we`ve heard these scamming things that Flora mentioned that obviously are not legal, but the welfare, is that legal?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It depends on what the facts are. It appears to me that they`ve got a sizeable cash flow spread throughout that cult going straight to Jeffs himself. If they can prove, obviously, that he`s not impoverished like it`s alleged, and these people are getting welfare, then, clearly, fraud is taking place. But I think a bigger problem is that he`s running his -- I don`t want to say church. To me, it`s a cult -- from the jail cell.
If my clients don`t take my advice, they make the poor mistake of running their criminal enterprise from the jail, they seize those phone calls, and then, they prosecute them for continuing business that is unlawful. The unlawful business is that men are allegedly raping children. So, why don`t they shut this down?
PINSKY: Here is what a former member had to say in a documentary called "Beyond Reach" about this sect and their loyalty to the sect. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAN FISCHER, FORMER FLDS: Everything is laid in as per the terminology, calves in the stall, raise your kids as calves in the stall. And after this happens over a few generations, you get a society that is so loyal to itself, so protective of itself, that for people to come forward and say anything negative, even on a family member, let alone on the prophet, it`s virtually unheard of.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Gary, tell me about that loyalty. It sounds more than loyalty, it sounds like paranoia.
TUCHMAN: There`s loyalty, there`s paranoia. You know, I`ve gotten to know a lot of the followers over the last five years because I`ve been to these communities, 15, 16, probably 17 times now. I`m trying to keep track, but what I see are people, when they talk to me privately, yes, most of them say we don`t like the idea of children getting married to adults, but on the other hand, they contradicted by saying, but Warren Jeffs is the closest man to God on planet Earth. He`s a prophet. And whatever revelations he said, there must be a reason. And we must follow. So, they act like robots.
PINSKY: Gary, that is one of the scariest scenarios I`ve ever heard. Loni, you`re shaking your head vigorously.
COOMBS: Yes. You know, it`s interesting. I kind of compare this to the religious zealots who do the suicide bombing because they believe it`s going to give them a better afterlife with the virgins or whatever. These women believe that if their daughters are married to the prophet, they`re going to have a better standing in the afterlife, and it will be better for their daughters. They consider it an honor and a blessing to have their daughters, no matter what the age, married to the prophet.
PINSKY: Flora, can you comment on what Loni just told us?
JESSOP: That`s absolutely right. And, you know, I had one 16-year- old girl that I worked with. When she came out, she told me that she wished that she got to marry Warren Jeffs. And I said, do you like him? And she said, no. I don`t like him at all, but if I marry him, then I`m a princess, not just regular person. So, yes, that`s very common.
PINSKY: I would just urge all of our viewers to think about leaders through history who`ve had unlimited power and unlimited control over their people. I mean, it`s -- where this can go is not a good place at all.
PINSKY: Now, thank you to my panel. Good job. I really do appreciate your comments. Gary, Loni, Mark, and Flora.
Next, our special series on liars continues when we talk to recovering addicts who recall the deception that accompanied their drinking, drugging, using. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMY WINEHOUSE, SINGER: I was drinking a lot. Not anything terrible. I was just trying to forget about the fact that I had finished this relationship, and my management at the time felt that I was -- you know, I wasn`t working. So, I didn`t see them a lot. They just kind of stepped in and thought they were being the good guys, just stepping in and strong arming me into a rehabilitation center, but I just didn`t really need it. You know, I knew I was in love.
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JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The world that Casey Anthony live that you heard testimony in this case. You remember her imaginary friends. We had Zanny the nanny, Jeffrey Hopkins. You had Zachary Hopkins, his son. There`s something wrong with this girl. This is not just someone lying to cover up a crime.
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PINSKY: She`s inspiring, that Casey Anthony, one of the great liars of our attorney. Her defense attorney, Jose Baez, proved it during his closing arguments when he showed the jury a display featuring a dozen of Casey`s -- to recall them -- imaginary friends, and the detail she provided of their lives. Casey lied to cover up the death of her two-year-old daughter, but the guests joining me tonight are recovering addicts who lied to cover up their addictions.
Actually, addicts who are into disease, they lie to cover up -- they lie about everything, not just their using. Joining me is Janice Dickinson, a model who was addicted to prescription medication, and now in recovery. Johnny Colt was the original bassist for the Black Crowes. He is a recovering alcoholic addict.
Jennifer Gimenez, actress/model recovering cocaine addict. She`s also counselor on the season`s "Celebrity Rehab." Michelle Golland is a clinical psychologist. Golland, I beg your pardon. All right. Jennifer, I start with you. You know, what do we say about addicts when they`re talking?
JENNIFER GIMENEZ, COUNSELOR, VH1`S CELEBRITY REHAB: Oh, God, they`re always lying, you know? And the thing is that, you know, the disease of drugs and alcoholism is -- it will rob you of your truth, you know? And it will rob you of your mind and eventually take your life. And there`s just line that we cross when we`re in our disease that you start believing the lie, and that`s where it gets really scary.
PINSKY: Well, it`s interesting to say, because that`s why I was speculating that Casey Anthony might be an addict, because for an addict, the kinds of lies she was telling seem customary, right, Janice?
JANICE DICKINSON, RECOVERING ADDICT: Well, I don`t know. I never murdered my child nor did I lie about murder with my children. Clearly, my children have seen me act out when I lied.
PINSKY: Right. And tell us about your lying. Was it all the time? Could you tell when you were lying --
DICKINSON: Dr. Drew, I was born different, and that turned me into an alcoholic, drug addict. I was born with a mental illness. And this mental illness made me always feel different, which drove me to the epitome of the fashion industry, but I had to do a lot of two-stepping to get there. And in order to do that, you know, yes, I came from a house where I had to lie because my dad was a pedophile.
PINSKY: Oh. Ok. There`s that too.
PINSKY: So, you lied to survive?
DICKINSON: Yes, I did.
PINSKY: And your disease also had you supporting lying, yes?
DICKINSON: It had to be done, because if I spoke, he would have beaten up my family. He physically abused me on a daily basis.
PINSKY: OK. So, there are two roads to lying. And many, many people with addiction, just from viewers, have a history of trauma of various types, and we hear that all the time. Michelle, you`re shaking your head yes.
MICHELLE GOLLAND, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, absolutely. I was going to say that`s what happens in families. I mean, people don`t become addicted to things because they lived in a happy, fulfilling, attuned home. They are disconnected, lied to, other things are happening, that they`re trying to cover up. And it`s deception.
PINSKY: The children are trying to survive.
PINSKY: Let me go to this little thing first here. Addicts, especially musicians, we all know like Amy Winehouse -- yes, which is just a sad story -- often surrounded by people who enable them and get them back to work prematurely. Here`s what Johnny Colt recently told CNN News about Amy and her attempt to treatment. Watch this.
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JOHNNY COLT, FMR MUSICIAN AND RECOVERING ADDICT: Rehab is one thing, but it takes years to get that attitude adjustment. And for her to be walking back onstage that quickly after her fourth rehab attempt just makes a testament to the people around her. It`s difficult, because when you`re a popular singer who makes money, you`re basically a race horse. And that`s how you`re treated by the people around you.
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PINSKY: Johnny, I totally, completely agreed with what you were explaining there. I`m not sure people understand that. They, somehow, think that the people around them are enabling their using. It`s a little more pernicious than that, isn`t it? The enabling is actually about returning them to work so they can`t ever get recovery.
COLT: Well, one of the things about dealing with an artist is that their art is essentially -- if they`re successful, it`s kind of lightning in a bottle. There is no formula for it. So, once it happens with a young artist, everyone that`s making money off of that artist wants to continue it as long as they can, and as we know throughout entertainment history, eventually, that lightning in a bottle wears out.
So, it`s in their best interest to keep you working, no matter what state you`re in. And if you decide to participate in drug use and not be at your best, it`s frankly even better for the people who handle you because you`re easier to manipulate.
DICKINSON: The same thing happened with Michael Jackson.
DICKINSON: The same thing happened with Amy. And she tried to contact me a few weeks before because she knew that I`d been in the limelight, and I had gotten sober. I blame the manager. I blame her handlers. I blame you. How dare you set this poor girl back after she had clearly --
PINSKY: Made an attempt.
DICKINSON: Made an attempt. She was in recovery. She was in rehab, and she was clean. The minute she went out, she took the same amount of drugs that she had taken before she entered rehab.
GOLLAND: The problem is that what happens in these situations, and we see this with celebrities and clients that I happen to have power and money, is that their bottom is constantly lowered. Lowered by the people around them because the power, money, and access. And then, death becomes the bottom.
PINSKY: Well, I can`t tell you -- Steven Tyler told me the other day, he said my lucky friends hit bottom. My unlucky ones are the ones that don`t.
GIMENEZ: It`s a spiritual malady here, you know? I mean, this disease wants you dead. It doesn`t care who you are, you know? And, you know, we are trauma survivors in some way, you know, even through our adulthood. And one of the biggest gifts that I was able to do was learn to tell the truth in recovery.
DICKINSON: In recovery, there`s a 12-step program. I`m on the ninth step. I lied recently to an ex. I didn`t have the courage to tell him, you know, that I had sex with the fireman/paramedic. It was --
DICKINSON: I didn`t have the courage, and I had to tell him today how sorry I was that I lied and cheated. Busted.
PINSKY: But Johnny, I hear you laughing, but it`s funny because it`s so true. Well, no, because it`s so true that the recovery is a daily process. I talked to our friend, Tom Sizemore, a couple of days ago, he knows everybody here, and he was saying how, you know, people don`t understand that people talk about beating addiction. Every day, it remains the hardest thing in his life. Is it not so, Johnny, and that includes being rigorously honest?
COLT: Absolutely. Tom Sizemore, I was a huge fan before. And he -- watching his recovery has been a boost to my own recovery, and I`m really honored to see the place he`s arrived. Yes, you have to build yourself back up from the ground, and it`s a scary thing. When I left my band, I had to start over from scratch, and that`s a scary place to go.
PINSKY: You`ve to start over who you are. You`re a new person.
COLT: Everything about you. Everything about you has to be redefined. Now, you`ve been working in an industry where the bottom is very low, because you`ve been attracted to the danger. That`s why you`re there. You actually want to be authentic as an artist. And there are no limits.
So, as you pursue this strange type of authenticity that you really believe you`re giving the audience the lifestyle that they`re not allowed to live, you`ve got to be this sort of bigger than life persona, at some point, it`s just becomes fly paper. You become trapped. And if you can`t wind your way out, if you don`t have a support network, if you can`t break it down and start over, you`re in real trouble.
GIMENEZ: What he`s saying here, I totally agree with. You know, it`s like they say you got to change one thing, and it`s everything. But the thing is, I don`t know how to do that. So, there`s a group of people in the 12-step community that guide me. I don`t know how to be sober at 5 1/2 years today. They teach me.
PINSKY: Let`s get back to the basic principle we started with, which is about truth and not lying. We want to make the point to our viewers that lying is a part of the disease.
DICKINSON: Of course, it is.
PINSKY: I don`t know addicts that don`t lie. I don`t get offended when they lie to me, because I know it`s part of the disease.
DICKINSON: Did I lie to you when I came in for recovery?
PINSKY: I`m sure. I`m sure.
DICKINSON: Oh, come on.
PINSKY: You must have.
DICKINSON: You`re the only guy I told the truth to.
PINSKY: OK. But you started there. You started there.
GOLLAND: But what`s so important is, you know what, even people who are not addicts don`t want to hear the truth in and of itself. It`s not something that our culture and society wants to hear in relationships.
PINSKY: Again, and that`s back to what we started with you in this conversation is that our families don`t necessarily support rigorous honesty.
PINSKY: We have to hide a little bit. We hide our feelings. We hide the truth from one another. And it`s an important message today is vigorous honesty is a healthy thing. Now, the lies came to an end when Jennifer, Janice, and Johnny, (INAUDIBLE) but they got better when they showed sobriety over deception. We will talk more. We got to go break. It`s part of the process. As we`re going to break, Janice, we will be right back after this.
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MACKENZIE PHILLIPS, ACTRESS: We all know that some of us just don`t get it, you know? And we all know that stars are surrounded by yes people and people who will enable them in order to keep the machine rolling. And Amy just didn`t get it. I mean, I know one of the clip I heard her say she just didn`t feel like she had to conform, and I think that`s one of the huge misconceptions about recovery.
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WINEHOUSE: I guess, from being around the block, I guess people know that I don`t really do what I`m told to do. I don`t really care enough about what you think of me to conform to anything.
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PINSKY: I know that`s particularly upsetting for Janice to see that footage because she had talked to Amy just before the tragic end. And you were beginning to reach out to her. She wanted sobriety.
DICKINSON: I gave her your phone number.
PINSKY: I know. I know. OK. So, when our guests chose sobriety, they also chose what must be an end to lying that had enveloped their lives. I`m back with Johnny Colt. He`s a former musician and recovering alcoholic and drug addict. Jennifer Gimenez, and Janice Dickinson are also recovering addicts. Michelle Golland is here, clinical psychologist.
All right. Each of my recovering folks, I`m going to ask Johnny, Jennifer, and Janice. I`ll start with you, Johnny. If you can, share with us so we can understand, so viewers can understand how bad where this disease takes you. What`s the worst lie you ever told?
COLT: The worst lie that I ever told. You know, my drug use was at a point where, you know, you`ve been in emergency rooms. You`ve been arrested by the police. At one point, you end up lying to everybody around you. The lies stack up, and at some point, there`s such a huge inventory that sorting them out is pretty difficult.
BUT, you name it, lied about doing drugs. And I`ve lied about money. And I lied about, you know, where I was at certain times, things like that. It`s part of being an addict.
PINSKY: You`re absolutely right. And Johnny, I`ve had patients years down the line, five years down the line remembering lies and making amends about it. Janice, how about you? Worst.
DICKINSON: The worst lie I want everyone to know is for 16 years I could not tell anyone about how my dad was having sex with my sister and beating me up, and I couldn`t study. I lied to the police at a young age. I was demoralized and humiliated. I just was so ashamed. So, I lied my way through childhood. And thus, you know, entering in my teens, it was emotionally -- I was emotionally gone. And alcohol and Quaalude and pot certainly didn`t help make me honest.
PINSKY: Well, it helped in the short-term, that`s why you did it.
PINSKY: And then, it has its own problems. Jennifer, you?
GIMENEZ: You know, like everyone`s been saying here, I told a lot of lies. You know, I`m a liar, a cheat, and a thief when I`m using, but I think the biggest lie I told myself that I didn`t matter, and there was no reason to be alive.
PINSKY: Oh, my goodness. It`s interesting most of the big lies were to yourself. Very interesting. Amy Winehouse`s father, Mitch, spoke at her funeral yesterday, and it raised eyebrows. He addressed her, quote, "fantastic recovery." He says three years ago, Amy conquered her drug dependency.
The doctors said it was impossible, but she really did it. She was trying to hard to deal with her drinking, and she just completed three weeks of abstinence. Michelle, my last question to you, it sounds like he was a little bit of denial, and she had lied to him about what was going on.
GOLLAND: Yes. And again, that`s what happens. The first casualty of addiction is the truth. And you said something -- it`s a process, Dr. Drew. It`s a process. And I think you have to be aware that you`re going to relapse, you`re going to struggle through it, but it`s a process, that you keep --
DICKINSON: She wanted to get sober.
PINSKY: I know. I know. Listen, I know. Listen, I want to thank this panel for being here and being so honest today. Johnny, thank you. Excellent. Jennifer, Janice, of course.
DICKINSON: Thank you, Drew.
PINSKY: Michelle, as always, thank you so much. Johnny, really good stuff. I appreciate you being here with us.
All right now. Tomorrow night, I insist -- I order everyone that`s watching tonight to check this out because the wait is over. Octomom, Nadia Suleman will be right here for a full hour. Really, you don`t want to miss this. You`re going to get a rare look inside her home, and believe me, this is interview is going to surprise you.
She talks about things you have never, ever heard her talk about before and makes sense of a lot of things in her life. Let`s just say no topic is taboo. We`ll see you tomorrow night. Thanks for joining us.