Return to Transcripts main page
Larry Flynt`s Offer to Casey Anthony
Aired July 29, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: OK. Here we go.
Reports of Casey Anthony cruising with a cold one. Is she celebrating her high-value fame? You won`t believe how much Larry Flynt is offering her to pose nude. Does Flynt have a lock on Casey? He will tell us himself later here.
And Warren Jeffs` prosecutors say they will play audio recordings of his alleged sexual assault of a 12-year-old. You will not believe your ears.
So let`s get started.
As the world awaits Amy Winehouse`s toxicology results for some indication or hopefully closure of how she died, her parents have presented their own theory. Her dad is saying abrupt alcohol abstinence. He thinks -- and I think the mom agrees, too -- that she quit drinking cold turkey, and that is in fact what may have done her in.
Now, a few things. I`m not of the opinion that that`s what happened. I`m going to talk about that in just a minute here.
Now, you can wait -- you can say wait, hang on a second. Can quitting booze ever kill someone? That`s what I bet people are thinking at home. Shouldn`t you quit and wouldn`t that improve a person`s health? Well, not necessarily.
In very serious cases of alcohol dependency, stopping all at once can in fact be deadly. The fact is that alcohol is the only drug -- and it`s really the only one -- from which withdrawal from the drug itself can be fatal. Not a complication of the withdrawal, just the withdrawal syndrome.
So this is why it`s so important for alcoholics to go through supervised detox. In fact, the term "detox" was originally coined to describe how we get people off alcohol.
We used to actually give alcohol infusions, and then slowly taper it, slowly detox it. Now we use Librium and medications like that.
Now, lastly, Winehouse reportedly ignored doctors` instructions to quit gradually. Her dad said it`s all or nothing with her all the time. And of course that`s kind of typical of addict alcoholic thinking, all-or- nothing mentality, black and white. We call it on the program self-will run riot.
Now, as to why I think this isn`t probably what happened to her, it just doesn`t fit quite right. Apparently, people were speaking to her the night before and that said she seemed sort of OK. If you`re going to die of alcohol withdrawal, it`s not that you just dead all of a sudden.
Now, you certainly could have a seizure and then have a complication of the seizure a couple weeks out from stopping alcohol, but that would have been seen on the autopsy. Alcohol withdrawal, when it occurs, a slowly progressive severe medical illness where people end up in ICU. We didn`t hear any of that kind of a syndrome developing, so I really don`t think that`s the issue.
OK. Now on to Casey Anthony.
From prisoner to pinup. It could happen if Larry Flynt, the famed founder of "Hustler" magazine, gets his way.
And a latex mask of Casey`s face -- ooh, there it is -- it sold for nearly $1 million. All right. Now, this is all as a video allegedly surfaces of Casey deplaning a private jet with a beer bottle in her hand. The video is being shopped around tonight as we speak. Is this finally the payday for Casey Anthony?
Watch this and we`ll talk.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A report that a new video allegedly shows Casey Anthony with a beer in her hand just hours after getting out of jail.
MARK GERAGOS, ATTORNEY: You mean as opposed to if she had a double Macallan 18 scotch?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Someone offered a bid for nearly $1 million to buy this rubber rendering of Casey Anthony`s face. The mask was auctioned on eBay.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Larry Flynt is offering Casey 500,000 bucks to pose nude.
LARRY FLYNT, FOUNDER, "HUSTLER": People have been coming to me in droves.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey`s reps say that this is nonsense.
PINSKY: And Larry Flynt is joining me now. He`s the author of "One Nation Under Sex."
Now, Larry, many Americans are still really angry with the verdict. Do you think they really want to see her naked?
FLYNT: Well, I didn`t. After the verdict came down, although I agreed with it, I still felt that she was probably complicit in the death of the child.
PINSKY: In some way.
FLYNT: So I didn`t feel marketing-wise that there was anything there, possibly other than the interviews. I never dreamed that the would be wanting photographs.
But I just completed a 20-city book tour that started in Boston and ended in Houston. And I`m telling you, people would come up to me by the dozens and say, "Why haven`t you made her an offer to pose?"
You don`t realize what a great hairdresser and a makeup artist can do. You know? They`re guys.
And so I thought about it and I figured, well, why not? I don`t know who`s being harmed by it.
PINSKY: Well, I talked to Steve Hirsch, who is the president of Vivid Video, a porn company, and he said he originally made an offer and then rescinded because the outcry was so profound. And he felt like he was disturbing people rather than giving them something they wanted.
Are you getting that kind of outcry from your --
FLYNT: I`ve had the same kind of outcry. But you deal with excesses, I don`t. I don`t have time for people with excesses who can`t control themselves.
Like, I own a casino, and people say, doesn`t that bother you, that problem gamblers come in here and lose their money? Well, that`s maybe only one percent of my business. But I really can`t deal with those kind of issues.
And it`s the same as these people who are protesting the conviction, who for the first time in their life, they`ve got a purpose. They can voice their opinion and they can protest. But they won`t let it go. And if they would just understand that we can`t dismantle our jury system just because we don`t like the verdict --
PINSKY: We`ve had lots of conversations about that.
Let me ask this. Is there anyone you wouldn`t ask if people were interested in? Is there anyone you wouldn`t ask to pose?
FLYNT: Well, I got a lot of criticism in 1975 when I published nude photos of Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis. Nobody else would touch them and I published them. I made $20 million in the process.
But it`s not the photographs of the person that you`re publishing, as much it is the icon status of the individual. Nobody really wants to see Queen Elizabeth nude, but if she was, you could sell more magazines than anybody else.
PINSKY: So it`s the iconic status? Is it tearing down an iconic status or --
FLYNT: Really, there is a morbid thing -- there`s a sexual component, but it`s also morbid. And the only thing I can compare this to is people who married others who are in prison.
PINSKY: Like Richard Ramirez, the serial killer.
FLYNT: But there`s no chance of a conjugal visit. But Richard Ramirez, who you just mentioned, he got more marriage proposals in prison than anybody else in history.
PINSKY: That doesn`t gross you out?
FLYNT: Sure. It gave me thought for pause. It`s just like I was wrong on Casey Anthony because I didn`t feel there would be any marketing appeal beyond possibly an interview.
PINSKY: It doesn`t gross you out? It doesn`t make you feel a little --
FLYNT: Well, I think a lot of people really felt that she was complicit in the death of her child.
PINSKY: And you`re going to publish nude photos of her.
FLYNT: Well, you explain to me how in Houston, at least a dozen cowboys came up to me and wanted to see photographs of her in the nude. Now, I can`t make a connection, maybe you can. But there`s a market out there for it.
PINSKY: So you`ll exploit the market no matter what?
PINSKY: OK. All right.
Now, the top-dollar offer for topless Casey isn`t the only offer her handlers are fielding. Defense attorney Mark Geragos talked to our own Joy Behar about the careful bidding for Casey`s first interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GERAGOS: They can pretend that they`ve got this kind of clarity of their mission, of journalistic mission. But they`ll have another division that`s got an imprint in the book. They`ll say, OK, we`ll buy the book here, go do the interview over here. That`s marketing for the imprint, but it`s journalism.
We didn`t pay. Our other division did. Or they`ll license the photos or license the video.
JOY BEHAR, HOST, "THE JOY BEHAR SHOW": That`s sneaky.
GERAGOS: Yes, it`s totally sneaky.
BEHAR: It`s very sneaky and should not be allowed.
GERAGOS: But that`s what happens.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: With me now is "In Session" correspondent Jean Casarez.
Now, Jean, lots of offers coming Casey`s way. Do you think she`s about to make a deal?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: I don`t think we`re going to know until it becomes public. You know, when I spoke with Jose Baez on Monday, he said that, "We`re not interested in the offers right now. The focus is to get her on the right road in life."
He said that they`re working on getting her in therapy. And I said, "You mean Casey will go to therapy?" "Absolutely," he said.
Now, of course, that`s on face value. That`s what he told me.
But I do think that there are some in that defense camp that want her to seek the good life and to go down the right road, because she was headed down the wrong road based on the evidence in this trial, notwithstanding her daughter`s life, but just in life in general.
PINSKY: But, Jean, we`re hearing about private planes. And now she`s going to go to therapy. She`s going to get on the right track. All that costs money.
I`m sure that she feels some pressure to make some deal. Larry is making her offers. Geragos is fielding all kinds of offers. Baez` comment just seems pollyannaish to me.
CASAREZ: You know what Cheney Mason told me the day of the sentencing? He said that the offers from mental health professionals were coming in hard and fast from around the country wanting to treat her, wanting to help her free of charge.
Now, I`m sure they`re going to have to discern who`s real there and who`s fake, because how many people would like to get close to Casey Anthony and maybe not keep their Hippocratic Oath of silence and confidentiality? So they`ve had to work through that. But I think that treatment may come free to Casey Anthony.
PINSKY: As maybe those private planes are, too.
Thank you, Jean.
So, Larry, this whole thing just makes me shake my head.
FLYNT: You know, when the dust settles on this whole thing -- they`re talking about all these people filing civil suits. A civil suit means nothing. You`ve got to have a judgment.
She`s got attorneys that know what they`re doing. She can do some of these films or posing, or whatever, interviews, things she does offshore. You know, the money would never come into the U.S. So there`s many different ways.
Everybody`s thinking that she has to worry about giving her money up. I don`t believe that. And so I think when she realizes that she can make the money and keep it, they`re going to let her make as much as she can, and the attorneys will probably get most of it.
PINSKY: Tell me about when the dust settles. You were about to say something there. I`m interested in how we`re going to feel when the dust settles. Her pictures will still be in your magazine when the dust settles.
FLYNT: I say very quickly, in a few months. First of all, I think you`ll see an interview within a few months, for sure. And then I think --
PINSKY: Will your window pass to make money off this?
FLYNT: No, because, you see, even though we just talked when I was on the show before about the --
PINSKY: The morbid curiosity?
FLYNT: And the amount of money she could make by taking a deal with "Hustler." If she comes with us, she`s also got VOD, she`s got Internet, she`s got Web sites.
PINSKY: All right. I don`t want you to pitch the deal right here on my show.
FLYNT: Yes, but what I`m saying is all of that is available and she`s --
PINSKY: So there`s even more money beyond the deal you`re offering.
FLYNT: That`s why we gave her a commission deal on all of it.
PINSKY: A percentage. Got it.
Larry, thank you for joining me. I do appreciate you coming in.
FLYNT: OK. Thanks.
PINSKY: Up next, Casey Anthony`s former roommate and friend, Clint House. He partied with Casey, but does he believe she might pose nude? We`ll hear from him. He`s with us next. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINT HOUSE, LIVED WITH CASEY ANTHONY: She was completely normal. Almost every time I saw her, there was -- like I said earlier, there was no red flags. Everything was completely normal. And she wasn`t overdrinking. She was just hanging out and partying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FLYNT: While there may be a group of people out there who think that she`s guilty of murder, you`ve got the men that say, hey, I want to see her in her birthday suit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was famed "Hustler" magazine publisher Larry Flynt referring to Casey Anthony. He recently offered her a lot of bucks to pose in her birthday suit.
With us now, criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh. Also with us is Clint House. He lived with Casey Anthony in June of 2008, the same month that Caylee went missing.
Here`s what Clint told me about Casey when we talked earlier this month.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOUSE: She would never drink to excess. I mean, it wasn`t like we had to carry her out of the club. She was there socially drinking, and she did enter the hot body contest.
Like I said just a little bit ago, it was her having a good time. And we didn`t think anything was out of the norm. We believed her when she said Caylee was at the grandparents` house or Caylee was with the nanny.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right, Clint. We know she likes to drink, she likes to party, hot body contests. Do you think she would pose nude for half a million dollars?
HOUSE: I don`t really know. I mean, I don`t know what Casey`s psyche is. It wouldn`t surprise me at all, but, I mean, it`s really going to be up to her. She`s going to be the one who`s going to make that decision.
PINSKY: But, you know, you`re the one that spent time with her. None of us have. Everyone`s speculating about her.
I think it`s interesting that you say you wouldn`t be surprised. I mean, she entered that hot body contest, and that was, I assume, free, or a couple shots. And now she`s going to get half a million dollars.
HOUSE: Well, I only knew Casey for about two months, so that`s why I`m saying I wouldn`t be really shocked. I mean, I saw some of the pictures that she had on her Photobucket account and things that were beforehand. But like I said, I didn`t really know Casey all that well. I only got to know her for about two months before all this happened.
PINSKY: Clint, Clint, Clint, I want to read between the lines here. What did you see in that Photobucket? She had a bunch of nude pictures or something?
HOUSE: Well, it wasn`t much nude photos, but they were photos of her, like, scantily clad at parties and things like that. I mean, they`ve been shown all over the media before. But there was nothing where she was, like, nude photos or anything like that. That`s for sure.
PINSKY: All right.
Well, the scariest Halloween mask for 2011? You ask that question? I`ve got it for you.
Take a look at this mask of Casey Anthony that just sold for $999,000 on eBay. It`s unbelievable.
The seller goes by the name of "Prophunter." And this was the sales pitch from Prophunter that he posted on eBay last Sunday: "Forget Freddy, Jason, Michael Meyers. Here`s your chance to scare the whatever out of everyone and win every costume contest with this amazing Tot Mom latex rubber mask, possibly the most frightening mask on the planet."
Mark, here I go again. You`ve got the Pepto-Bismol handy? It started at $25 and sold for nearly $1 million. What is that all about?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`ve got it right here, Drew. I think I`m going to need some after this.
It is so unbelievable that I don`t believe it. I don`t believe that someone would put down close to a million dollars for a mask that`s going to be reproduced and probably be one of the bigger sellers at Halloween, because people are going to want to dress up as a scary person like Casey. I just don`t buy it. That`s all.
PINSKY: I think I agree with you. I actually agree with you. Maybe it`s some sort of -- somebody`s going to try to get out from under that bid.
But let me ask you this. You heard what Larry Flynt was saying, Mark. Did you have any response about what he was saying about his offer for half a million dollars to pose in "Hustler"?
EIGLARSH: Well, get ready for the backlash. My wife and I are already considering canceling our "Hustler" subscription. Sure, we`ll miss the provocative articles, but we`ve got to draw a line in the sand somewhere. You know, come on.
Time to move on to "Penthouse," I guess. I don`t know.
PINSKY: I guess so.
Whatever money Casey earns, it may leave her as quickly it comes. Here`s a portion of a letter sent to prosecutor Linda Drane Burdick from the Orange County Sheriff`s Office in Florida, and it reads, "An incredible amount of manpower was deployed and over 6,000 tips were received requiring extensive man hours. Please consider this as an official request that Ms. Casey Anthony" -- I hope it`s official with teeth in it -- "be ordered to reimburse the Orange County Sheriff`s Office $293,123.77."
Now, Mark, do you think the sheriff`s department will ever see that money?
EIGLARSH: Maybe. I mean, the only thing good about her baring her private parts is that then, first of all, Uncle Sam gets a chunk of the tax money back that she owes for the $200,000 that she got for selling her photos to another network that I won`t name -- ABC. And Uncle Sam could use that money.
Secondly, she owes for the cost of prosecution, at least on the lying counts.
And then third, the amount of money that they spent on the lying count. Forget about the ones she was acquitted for. But on the lying counts, her lies, what that led investigators to do. So yes, that`s the only positive part of her showing her private parts.
PINSKY: All right. Thank you, Mark. Thank you for a good little laugh here.
We`ll be right back. "On Call" is next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I want to calm you down.
NADYA SULEMAN, "OCTOMOM": I don`t want people to feel pity. I don`t want --
PINSKY: I see it.
SULEMAN: I feel guilty when people say they feel pity.
PINSKY: I don`t feel pity. I just want you to calm down.
SULEMAN: I`m a rocking (ph) ball of anxiety, I know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And there you saw one of many dramatic moments during the interview last night with "Octomom," Nadya Suleman.
Now, when we got to work today, we received tons of feedback. So let`s get right to it.
Going to Facebook first. This is Mary, and she writes, "Dr. Drew you changed my view of Octomom last night. Now I find myself being more compassionate of her life with 14 kids. I honestly felt she was telling the truth. Did you?"
Yes, I did. I mean, listen, I work in a world where I`ve come to expect lying all the time. And I think those of us that have been watching this Casey Anthony fiasco are getting used to the idea that people lie. So she may have been distorting, but I felt like she was telling the truth.
And it sort of fit. It made sense.
I mean, she got herself in a situation that she didn`t intend to get in. We heard about that. And now we`re seeing how overwhelming her life is, and that she actually hates herself for the choices she`s made.
It`s really a sad story that we all need to have a little compassion for.
All right. Let`s get to the phones.
This is Lynn in California.
What do you think?
LYNN, CALIFORNIA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
LYNN: I felt so sad watching the show last night. I just wanted to somehow reach in and hug Nadya. What struck me the most is that she didn`t even seem to understand that her anxiety, OCD, perfectionism, or trust issues were making her life so much harder than it could be.
PINSKY: You know, I disagree with you, Lynn. I think she did know it, but she actually told me -- she goes, "Look, I know I need treatment. I need therapy. But when am I going to do it? I have to make money, I`ve got to support these kids, I`ve got to take care of these kids."
I would love to get better, but I can`t. But interestingly, my wife was actually here watching the show with me when I was doing it the other night, last night. And she and I both remarked that we remember raising triplets feeling manicky, that dealing with multiples puts you in sort of a survival mode all the time.
So, some of what we were are seeing is just the circumstance that she is in, not necessarily just an underlying condition.
Let`s go back to the phones. This is Karen in Michigan.
What`s your question, Karen?
KAREN, MICHIGAN: Hey, Dr. Drew.
KAREN: My question is, how long do you think Octomom can keep up with that level of anxiety and responsibility before she completely breaks?
PINSKY: You know, I hope -- I don`t even want to speculate, Karen. The fact is that she needs to keep it up.
She`s in survival mode. She`ll probably do whatever she has to do. She`s already in the breaking state. Hopefully -- my hope is that she will get the help she needs to make this marathon survivable.
Cindy tweeted us. She writes, "Many of us were nervous watching Octomom at home. Did you feel the same way in the studio?"
And yes, I absolutely did. I think if you saw that footage that we just aired, her anxiety was contagious. It was very difficult to be around and it was almost hard to talk to her. She made us also anxious. And that may be empathic for her, too, by the way.
Denise asks, "How did you feel about Nadya diagnosing herself throughout the interview? I thought it made her wackiness even worse."
No, I thought it showed an intelligent side of her and an insightful side of her. That`s why I asked her. I know she`s a psych tech. She has training in this. And the fact is she should be able to assess herself, and she did.
I think she was absolutely right, in fact. Don`t think it added to the wackiness. No, I don`t.
Up next, Warren Jeffs on trial, and today he speaks. And guess what? The man accused of bigamy and sex crimes is apologizing to no one. In fact, he`s mad as hell.
At whom, you ask? Well, stick around to find out.
PINSKY: Warren Jeffs fires his defense, now representing himself and the most shocking revelation yet in the Warren Jeffs trial. Prosecutors promise to play audio tapes of Jeffs alleged sexual assault on a 12-year- old girl. The details are sickening. A mechanical choreograph violation. And, from Jeffs himself, dead silence at first, no opening statement, no questions on cross, then a torrent of preaching and a smack down from the judge. Was this his plan all along? Fire the lawyers and turn the courtroom into a pulpit?
The self-proclaimed prophet speaks. Polygamist leader Warren Jeffs, who is representing himself in a sexual assault trial in Texas and declined to give an opening argument yesterday, launched into a 55 minute speech today saying none of the FLDS children are being harmed and that his, this persecution of his religious freedoms must stop.
It`s only day five of the trial. The theatrics are already out of control. Joining me to talk about this is criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh, criminal defense attorney, Brandon Hudson, and following the trial in San Angelo, we have KTVT Investigative Reporter, Michael Watkiss. Now Jeffs began his diatribe today by objecting to introduction of documents seized at the FLDS compound. He said, "They, the FBI, touched upon what we find sacred to salvation. You are stomping on sacred ground. You are treading upon a people of peace. This religion deserves protection. The government of the United States has no right to infringe on the right of a peaceful people. The mockery must cease. This religious persecution must cease." Ok, Michael, he put on quite a show today, Warren Jeffs did. Describe what you saw.
MICHAEL WATKISS, KTVT INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, I think we`re all sort of numb. I think everybody in that courtroom is tired of picking their jaws off the floor. It just happened over and over again. You`re right, after sitting silent, just sullen and silent, I believe hunched over in prayer for the last couple of days, Mr. Jeffs erupted, breaking his silence, delivering several sermons in front of the jury today and then this afternoon, out of sight of the jury, reading a letter that he said was from God and basically calling forth a scourge of sickness and death on the prosecutorial counties here in Texas. Interpret that as a threat if you will. The exasperation of the judge, Mr. Jeffs continually interrupting the chief prosecutor, Eric Nichols, interrupting the judge. Her hands, in many ways, are sort of tied. I think most defendants would have been removed from the court but Mr. Jeffs is now his own lawyer. They remove him, there is no defense. It`s -- it`s a wild situation here in west Texas.
PINSKY: Now Brandon, we talked to you a couple of days ago and you, I think, were saying that his right, his First Amendment rights should be protected. Is that still your opinion based on how he`s -- these proceedings are going?
BRANDON HUDSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Sure, not only his First Amendment rights but also his right to have a fair trial out there in San Angelo, Texas. He`s decided to fire all of his counsel. Many lawyers from Houston and Dallas/Fort Worth area but he still has a right to have a fair trial and this is the way he`s deciding to go forward, by representing himself and telling those jurors why he shouldn`t be prosecuted or found guilty.
PINSKY: All right, Mark, I`m going to ask you to respond to Brandon. Is this a First Amendment issue and is this how he`s going to get a fair trial.
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I agree with Brandon. This is about protecting his right to a fair trial and if he wants to have a fool for a client, he`s entitled to do so after the judge asks a number of very specific questions to insure that he`s doing it freely and voluntarily and that he knows what he`s doing. Here`s what I think, Drew. He knows that he`s going to come in second place in this trial. There`s no doubt with his alleged DNA inside the baby, the 12-year-old, there`s no doubt so this is him grandstanding for his people back at home and it`s also his opportunity to potentially create some issue on appeal and then somehow then get to do this all over again.
PINSKY: And, Brandon, again, I want to question you a little further. I -- I -- I understand -- you know, I understand this is kind of a tricky issue on many fronts and, of course, you know, all of us want to protect our liberties, it`s the First Amendment for crying out loud. But, is -- it`s sort of suggesting people can shroud being above the law in the right to religious freedom, doesn`t it?
HUDSON: That`s not what I`m suggesting. I don`t know what Warren Jeffs is suggesting. What I`m suggesting is, first of all, his right to have a day in court and if he wants to espouse that his abuse of these people, if it occurred, or these particular two girls, as they have alleged. If he wants to say that`s protected religious freedom, he has the right to say that. I think that jury can have the right to disagree with that and they may very well do that.
PINSKY: I have to stop you. I have to stop you. I am a father. I am, you know, an American citizen, regular guy. That -- that makes my skin crawl.
EIGLARSH: Hold on, well, no, Dr. Drew -- Dr. Drew, no, no, no, what it says it. Here`s the problem. I agree with Mr. Hudson tonight. You`re wrong, Dr. Drew. If he wants to get up there and advance an absolutely crazy theory, that`s his right and then it`s the juror`s right to find him not guilty and send his ass to prison for 119 years, which is what he`s facing, but you don`t stop his ability to spew whatever defense he wants to put out there and then let the jury just crucify him. It`s his right.
HUDSON: But -- and I agree with you guys, but the issue is.
PINSKY: Go ahead Brandon.
HUDSON: .that, you know, in this particular case, we, as the United States, and in each different state have decided that people of a certain age can`t consent to sex. That is a -- that is the law where freedom of religion stops or other rights stop but what the right to defend yourself based on the First Amendment right is what if one day a state decides that taking communion would be a violation of some law? Those are the things. I don`t think this society is willing to accept that abuse of young children, if that is what occurred by Warren Jeffs, is protected religious freedom but, you know, is same sex marriage going to be legalized in America for consenting adults over 18? Well, is polygamy going to be legalized for same -- you know, for individuals over 18? These all are issues that could be First Amendment issues but Warren Jeffs has the right to say it. I think that jury and the community has a right to wholeheartedly disagree and convict him, as Mark said.
PINSKY: Michael, Michael, I`m going to pull this conversation away from the attorneys. I know you`re having the same emotional reaction that I`m having, I -- I just know. Is this above -- this is well beyond the issue of -- of proceedings of a courtroom. Now, I`m going to ask you this. The prosecution may have audio evidence of Jeffs sexually abusing a 12- year-old. We`re just supposed to sit back and just passionately listen to that?
WATKISS: Well, I`m a father myself, Drew, and so, you know, I listen to this stuff and I defer to the esteemed lawyers who are probably a lot smarter than I am but I`ve covered these guys for 30 years and I know that their claims of whenever the men step forward and they start talking about their religious rights, I have seen very personally the faces of the little girls running, the boys who have been cast out, men who have killed themselves because they`ve had their families taken away and whenever I start hearing about the men claiming their religious rights, I know personally that those -- those rights always come at the expense of the women and children`s human rights.
I can also -- I also don`t believe that these guys really understand or appreciate what`s going on in Warren Jeffs` mind. Warren Jeffs believes he is above this tribunal. He believes he is a mouthpiece of God. Whether he has calculated this or not, I think we`re now seeing the real Warren Jeffs. This is a guy who is going to step forward and say I am God`s messenger on earth. How dare you try me. How that will play in front of this jury, I think, is a very good question. But, this man is -- whether his strategies, I think that gives him more credit as a lawyer. I think we`re now seeing Warren Jeffs, the prophet, a guy who has had people kowtow and (INAUDIBLE) to him his entire life and he believes, truly, quite literally, he is completely above all of this.
EIGLARSH: Drew, let me say this.
PINSKY: Mark, you have a comment?
EIGLARSH: The only thing more offensive and outrageous in hearing him spew his meritless and -- and -- and offensive arguments in court would be to hear it again. And, if the judge said, well, your argument is outrageous and offensive because Dr. Drew says so and I agree with him, then we would then be trying this case over again. He has to have the ability, the leeway, to make his ridiculous argument. It doesn`t just protect him, it protects all the idiots around the country who are making meritless arguments throughout the day and then the jury says, ok, we don`t buy it, guilty. And then the system works.
PINSKY: Brandon, I`m going to give you the last word.
HUDSON: I think he`s right. I mean, we -- Mr. Jeffs isn`t the first person to fire his counsel and proceed on his own. He does probably think he`s above this but, you know, this is how the system works and, unfortunately, he didn`t take any type of negotiation in the process and here we are in a three-week long trial. Whether or not that audio tape gets authenticated and is admissible under the objection, the downfall is that the only legal protection that Warren Jeffs ever had was his attorneys objecting to pieces of evidence coming in and it looks like that`s going to be taken away because he decided to speak to the jury on his own behalf and have no one there to help him.
PINSKY: Well, thank you gentlemen for this interesting panel. The most astonishing part about this story for me is that I`m hearing Mark Eiglarsh and Brandon Hudson agree. Astonishing. So, up next.
EIGLARSH: We`re starting a law firm, come on, hey buddy.
PINSKY: .an attorney -- up next, an attorney who represented a few of the FLDS children in 2008 in West Texas raid says it was a mistake to send them back.
NATALIE MALONIS, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR FLDS CHILDREN: I think that some of the cases, you know, where there was -- you know, they`ve -- they`ve got a report that they`ve confirmed, you know, abuse and neglect with some of these kids and -- and I think it`s irresponsible, you know, to send them back in that environment where there`s not been real changes prior to sending them back. And that sense, some of those children were -- were failed by the State of Texas.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
EMILY DETOTO, WARREN JEFFS` DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I would like to, for the record, state that his voluntary -- his voluntary invocation of his right to self-representation was not a gimmick or a ploy to buy more time as it will probably be portrayed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Yesterday, Jeffs` defense attorneys defended his decision to fire them and then go ahead and represent himself. Huge mistake. Well, we`ll see. Well, joining us to talk about the trial and give us some insight into what happened during that 2008 raid on the FLDS West Texas ranch, Flora Jessop, a former FLDS member, criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh, and new to our panel, a family law attorney who had represented four of the FLDS children taken from that compound during that raid, Natalie Malonis.
Now, Natalie, talk about these kids you represented, what were they like, what was their demeanor like? I think you said t here was evidence of abuse?
MALONIS: Yes sir, there was. The kids I represented they ranged in age from 7 years old up to 17. And, so, there was a little bit of difference between the younger kids and the older ones, the younger children being a little more withdrawn and, perhaps, a little more fearful. The older children seemed, you know, very independent and opinionated. The -- the -- and I would say all of the children were primarily interested in being reunited with their siblings. I mean, t hey expressed a desire to go back with their parents but their primary interest was really reunification with their siblings.
PINSKY: Well, that`s kind of interesting. So, they weren`t so concerned about being with their parents, they were worried about their siblings back, I suppose, at the ranch. What -- what were the signs of abuse? What kind of abuse did you think you were seeing.
MALONIS: Well, and I don`t want to get into the details of , you know, anything that had to do with my representation of those particular children, but, just, you know, I had a lot of interaction with a lot of the children and the families, not just the children I represented and I -- I did see some troubling evidence of -- there was some evidence of -- of physical injuries to, you know, very young children and, of course, you know, we`ve all become aware of the underage marriages and the -- and the alleged sexual abuses and the convictions that have resulted. So, you know, and those were pretty pervasive at the time. I think there was a systematic pattern of marrying, you know, 12 and 13-year-old girls to older men at that time.
PINSKY: Now, during the 2008 raid, apparently, some of the FLDS mothers were very outspoken and upset that their kids had been taken away. Take a look at this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: CPS has told us we now have this long court battle that could last up to a couple of years and our children be spread out into homes that the state decides in and we would only get to see our children by state permission. So, now they have disrupted a whole community of mothers and children that only get to see each other by state permission.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Flora, most FLDS members are instructed not to talk to the media. Isn`t that -- isn`t this unusual these women were speaking out?
FLORA JESSOP, FORMER FLDS MEMBER: Well, it -- it was unusual but the FLDS did a very big propaganda and rhetoric media message out to get their kids back, to get people outraged that -- that when they saw these poor prairie-dressed mothers getting their children ripped out of their arms by CPS and got the entire world feeling sorry for them for these poor mothers when the world didn`t understand the invasiveness and of the abuses and the pattern and practice of the abuses that was being perpetrated on these children.
PINSKY: Hey, Flora, I`m going to ask you, again, I`ve been having kind of an emotional reaction tonight. The attorneys are getting it. Mark, I`ll get to you in a minute, but they`re getting their procedural arguments or what not. What do you think when you hear people saying things like, "We shouldn`t hold an entire community accountable for the behavior of a couple of people." What do you think when you hear that?
JESSOP: You know, I used to feel the same way when I first came out of the FLDS. But, working with the children that I have over the years and when you look at the situation and you listen -- when this tape comes into evidence in this trial and you hear the voices of the many people that were standing around that room watching this 11-year-old get raped by Warren Jeffs, because it`s in FLDS, the sacred ceremonies is to -- that -- the wedding must be consecrated in front of God and his disciples and so that includes all the priesthood men and I think that the whole community does need to be held accountable.
If, you know, they say it takes a village to raise a child and, yet, this village is systematically destroying their children, one by one.
PINSKY: Wait a minute, Flora, hold on. This is the first I`ve heard of this. The prophet does this with a 12-year-old in front of other men?
JESSOP: Well, you know, they have that temple bed, if you take a look at the temple bed that they claimed was the caretaker`s bed in that temple. This is not a caretaker`s bed. This is a temple ceremony where they are to consummate the marriage in front of God and his disciples. It`s the only reason the bed would be in the temple. And, clearly, you can hear others` voices on the tape when she is being raped by Warren Jeffs.
JESSOP: This is not something that`s happening behind closed doors.
PINSKY: Flora, thank you. That`s the first I`ve heard of it and that explicitly. Mark, I -- I`m going nuts here. What do we do with that information?
EIGLARSH: Well, add that to the rest of the information that we`re hearing that saddens us very deeply. And, now there`s more than enough. We heard from the other attorney earlier, that it`s systematic, it`s not isolated incidents. This is a systematic reflection of what`s going on there, that rape amongst children is commonplace so the first thing I ask is why is Warren Jeffs allowed to spend 10, and I`ve heard as high as $23,000 in phone cards over the last five months, to continue then to lead this cult in their systematic raping of children?
The first thing I`d do is I`d shut those phone privileges down and let him fight for them back. The second thing I`d do is gather enough evidence to stop this. The people are obviously all engaged in either covering up or supporting it. So, they need to do something.
PINSKY: Yes, I think at some point you have to hold a community accountable for this. I agree with you Mark. Coming up next, are FLDS members waterboarding their babies. This just keeps going. Former members say this is, in fact, what`s happening. Stay tuned.
PINSKY: Defenders of Warren Jeffs` sect tell me why we shouldn`t condemn an entire community for what one man is accused of.
LAURIE ALLEN, FORMER FLDS MEMBER: From the time you are a baby you are stripped of all your emotions. I mean, when you`re an infant and you cry, you`re waterboarded or the hand is cupped over the mouth and nose so the baby can`t breathe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I -- I`m still shaking my head about what Flora just told us about. I mean, how far do the First Amendment privileges get protected. I -- it`s hard to imagine that any human being -- being could actually take an infant and hold it under water for a long period of time but that`s what former members of FLDS polygamist sect are claiming. Welcome back to the program but joining me to talk about this is Flora Jessop, a former FLDS member, criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh, and a family law attorney who represented some of the children taken from the FLDS compound during the 2008 raid, Natalie Malonis, and she represented some of these FLDS children.
Natalie, my first question is to you. I think this is a quote from you saying, "One of the greatest tragedies of this story is that there was a lot of opportunity to help these kids and that was blown." Was that you and do you still feel that way?
MALONIS: That was me, yes. I do feel that way. I think -- I think there was a tremendous opportunity when the raid happened and when CPS had the cases and I don`t think there`s going to be another opportunity like that, unfortunately.
PINSKY: Flora, I want to go to you. I mean, you just blew our minds a few minutes ago with this story about this bizarre ritual of -- of a prophet having sex with a 12-year-old in front of all these grown men, it`s just disgusting and now I`m hearing about waterboarding of infants. I -- I really -- I`m sort of speechless.
JESSOP: You know, let -- let me tell you what my experience growing up was and what myself watching this happen, this waterboarding happen to so many children. Because I lived in -- when -- in a home -- I was locked up in a home that was the birthing center, my uncle ran the birthing center and, so, many children came into this home through the clinic when they were having behavioral problems and so I witnessed this happen over and over and over again to numerous children.
And, as a result of that, I swore when I was a child that I would never have more than two children because the way I saw it in my child mind was that if I had two children, I had two arms, I could grab one under each and run like hell but if I had three, I was going to have to stand there and take what they dished out. And I wasn`t willing to accept that.
PINSKY: Flora, thank you for joining us tonight.
JESSOP: I -- I have one.
PINSKY: .you have one child?
JESSOP: I have one child and my husband has a child, therefore, there`s my two children.
PINSKY: Ok, and I`m glad you`re not having to subject them to what we`re hearing about this evening. Mark? I -- I just have to shake my head, you know, the entire community, I think, on some level has to be held accountable. I mean, this is becoming a more vivid and stunning story all the time, don`t you think so?
EIGLARSH: Yes, and I -- I`m glad that the media like yourself, you know, you`re -- you`re bringing this to light. Prosecutors -- I used to call myself a prioritizer not a prosecutor because there`s so much to prosecute, you have to pick your battles. I`m hoping with highlighting what we`re seeing tonight and throughout the week that prosecutors step up and do something about this. How many children are going to be abused tonight? How many? We need to do something.
PINSKY: And, a reminder that, you know, yes, our, you know, First Amendment privileges are important but no one is above the law. Mark you have 10 seconds, go.
EIGLARSH: This is not about the First Amendment. This is not about the First Amendment. That bothers me. I`m a staunch First Amendment supporter. This is not about religion. This is about rape.
PINSKY: Fair enough. All right. Much more. Thank you to my great panel, Flora, Mark, Melanie, I appreciate it. Much more on the Warren Jeffs` case next week. Have a great weekend everybody.