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Warren Jeffs Case
Aired August 2, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
Did Warren Jeffs have sex with two little girls he married? Brace yourselves for the disturbing, disgusting evidence. I have a tough time hearing it.
And Casey Anthony has 48 hours to hightail it home. Will she finally go public?
Let`s go figure it out.
As we learned from Casey Anthony and others who have been tried for serious crimes, highly publicized trials interest us. Right? They tell us a lot about the defendants, but what`s interesting to me is they tell us a lot about ourselves.
Now, in the case of polygamist leader Warren Jeffs, he`s charged with sexual assault. That is, having sex with two young girls he then married.
He is the member of what some call a cult. And many of us, certainly I`ve sat in judgment. Many of us have convicted him because this behavior is so out of line with what is -- should I call it OK? It is not right, it`s wrong.
And we sit in judgment here of someone else`s cultural norms, perhaps. But it`s a chance to think about it.
I`m not saying their cultural norms are OK. I`m just saying it`s a chance for us to think about the fact that we, too, at times can come out of the sway of cultural norms, and it`s important to think about that and what`s right or wrong, not we think ought to be done because we were raised that way or it`s what happened to us. It`s not necessarily right.
Now, I`m not condoning criminal questionable behavior, obviously, especially as it relates to children. I`m disgusted by all this. But I`m saying consider this -- consider what you do, why you do it. A chance for all of us to, you know, check ourselves, take a good look at ourselves and think about what influences we might be under as well.
But we are going to look hard and scrutinize Warren Jeffs` behavior tonight. Sickening testimony in the trial, mountains of disgusting evidence revealed.
A forensic scientist presents DNA evidence that shows Jeffs is 99.99999 percent -- not making that up, no hyperbole -- 99.9999 percent the father of a baby whose mom was a 15-year-old child.
And prosecutors also -- brace yourselves -- have an audiotape of what they say is the sound of Warren Jeffs having sex with a 12-year-old girl, while some of his followers watched. We heard about this for the first time on Friday. We talked about it yesterday.
Why would they record this stuff? Why are they all watching? How can they condone this?
Tonight, we are going inside the walls of a top-secret church that some of the ex-members have been calling a sick, sadistic cult.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WARREN JEFFS, DEFENDANT: Tell the family I will not be calling anymore.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We love you. This is a test. You are a prophet.
JEFFS: This is not a test. This is a revelation. Who is never his servant? I say farewell again to all who qualify for Zion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It is bizarre. Why do people follow blindly as Jeffs -- they consider him a God, as their prophet. The term "brainwash" has been tossed about. I`ll tell you what this likely is.
Plus, we know the FLDS followers are isolated. But do they have a sense deep down, do they know that their leader is doing something that is wrong? He`s preaching that men should marry and rape children. That`s OK?
Straight to my guests. Brandon Hudson is an attorney who has represented members of the FLDS. Anchor of "In Session" on truTV Christi Paul joins us. She is live in Texas. And former prosecutor and criminal defense attorney Mike Eiglarsh joins us.
Mark, 99.9999 percent that he is the family. Slam-dunk, right?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I would say so. And again, this is not about religion.
He can argue that all he wants. He`ll argue it in sentencing. It`s not going to matter to this conservative Texas jury.
His DNA is inside the DNA of a baby inside of a child. That`s it. We`re done.
PINSKY: Right. Yes. Right, that`s what I would think, case closed. And I certainly hope that the jury doesn`t contemplate anything else.
It`s disgusting, right?
EIGLARSH: Well, it`s clearly abhorrent, but it`s a very simple process for a jury. There are elements to the crime. And they question, OK, did the prosecution meet the elements of the crime? Did they carry their burden? Did they prove each and every one?
The answer is, yes. And then they go it a penalty phase, a separate phase, and he can argue all he wants, well, I was born into this, this is how I was just raised, it`s religion, whatever cockamamie stuff he wants to argue.
The bottom line is his conduct is abhorrent, allegedly. And ultimately, he`s not even defending it.
He`s not saying that he didn`t do it. So, ultimately, his excuse could be shown to the jury in the form of mitigation, if that`s what you want to call it, and they can decide whether he gets the full 119 years that he`s facing.
PINSKY: Now, the prosecution apparently has a recording in which they claim you can clearly hear Jeffs having sex with a 12-year-old girl. There are also -- we`ve heard this before -- allegedly other people in the room watching.
Why would he record himself having sex? Why would followers be in the room?
Christi, the girl is 12 years old. As a mother to young daughters, what goes through your head when you hear this stuff?
CHRISTI PAUL, ANCHOR, "IN SESSION": It`s stomach-turning, is the first thing I can say. I do, I have three kids, three little girls ages 2 to 7. So this is particularly hard to listen to and to imagine.
It`s hard enough to imagine the act, but to imagine that it was something that was recorded, and with other people in the room, possibly, as we understand it, other sister wives, it`s numbing. I can`t even explain it to you in terms of what it`s like in that courtroom, because people are on the edge of their seat today waiting to listen to this recording. And it`s a packed courthouse today, Dr. Drew. Everybody is just waiting for this one.
And Warren Jeffs has been particularly agitated today when it comes to some of the evidence that has been presented regarding his personal journals and writings and some of the documents that were admitted into evidence today. He gets really offended and stands up.
He made so many objections today, basically saying that this continued presentation is an abuse of that which is holy. He went on to say that, "It`s sacred to others, but not to you."
So trying to put into perspective that, look, what is sacred to mean doesn`t necessarily mean it`s sacred to you. And once in a while I`ll hear him say something -- you might realize it is somewhat clever. He`ll say, my religion and my principles and edicts are important to me, just like yours are important to you.
So sometimes he throws something out there to try, I think, to get empathy and make people put themselves in his shoes and try to understand the religious aspects of this. But, again, the prosecution always coming back to the fact that the U.S. Constitution does not advocate that religion can override the safety of children.
PINSKY: That`s exactly right. If my religion believed that I needed to throw a baby in a volcano to appease God, or God told me to do that, it would still not be OK.
Now, the jury saw a portrait photo today of one of the victims, a child bride and Jeffs, taken around the time they were married. You can see here she is hugging him.
Brandon, you have defended members of the FLDS Church. There is the photo, the high probability, the virtual -- the absolute probability he is the father of a 15-year-old teenager`s baby.
Give me your perspective on this.
BRANDON HUDSON, FMR. ATTORNEY FOR FLDS MEMBERS: Well, my perspective on is this -- I got to know a lot of those men who were in the church under Warren Jeffs, and were there when their fathers were there and their grandfathers were in that church. What Warren Jeffs did when he was the leader of that church and in charge, after his father Rulon passed, there were a lost changes.
Those men grew up in the church that they knew. They practiced and they were faithful in that church.
Now, all these allegations and this audiotape and things like that, none of that was evidence that we had in any of the cases with the men that I represented. And as -- I never met Warren Jeffs, don`t know anything about him, other than what`s in the media. But what I will tell you is the men that I got to know were completely different than what Warren Jeffs is being portrayed here. And I think a lot of people in the community out there --
PINSKY: Brandon, let me just say something kind of provocative. And that is that I know lots of people have done horrible things and that seem nice enough, seem friendly enough, and seem like good people, and do horrible things. I mean, I see that all the time.
And I hear people defending the community saying, well, it`s just some of their leaders, we can`t hold them all accountable for that. Now we`re hearing that some of the clergy or some members of the leadership were in the room when this happened.
I mean, at some point, don`t we have to hold the community accountable for this? At some point?
HUDSON: I am not asking anybody in the community or you to excuse what these people did if they did these things. What I`m saying is, as Mark talked about mitigation, it`s not cockamamie. It is what these people knew.
That doesn`t mean that a jury can`t listen to it and decide to give them some type of punishment like they did in those cases. But it gives them context. Like you said at the beginning of the show, it`s what culture were we raised in and what do we know? If they stood by while Warren Jeffs did what this audio -- and how do we know who was present or what was present?
If this was in fact recorded, should someone be responsible? Sure. But that doesn`t mean that everybody in the church is at the same level of Warren Jeffs, by any means.
PINSKY: I understand that. OK.
Mark, last comment. Go ahead.
EIGLARSH: All right. I understand the concept that not every single person could be held accountable the way Mr. Jeffs is. But are you telling the viewers that what we`re hearing, the systematic raping, torturing, waterboarding, psychological, sexual abuse is not taking place, that`s a thing of the past? Is that what you`re saying?
HUDSON: If you`re telling me that that is a wholesale among all the members of the church, then -- there`s only seven or eight prosecutions in the state of Texas. Arizona, Utah hasn`t had any. We would see much more than what you`re seeing here.
EIGLARSH: Well, no. There`s a code of silence. Nobody wants to talk.
I`m asking you. You`re saying this is a thing of the past, it`s not something that you saw.
Are you saying going forward, we can sleep well at night knowing that no children are being harmed?
HUDSON: It`s not systematic. I do not believe it`s systematic. You would see much more people prosecuted -- many more people prosecuted in the church if it were systematic.
And what you described, the sensational terms you used of waterboarding and things like that, there is no evidence been introduced in any of these trials that these were other than --
EIGLARSH: Other than eyewitnesses who have been on the record describing it. I mean, I`ve heard from people who --
HUDSON: And those are people who have left the church and written books, or have gone on television shows, some of which testifying --
EIGLARSH: Thank God.
HUDSON: None of which said those things, who talked any about those salacious things. The records and the evidence under oath that was said was, yes, there were marriages to women that were 15 and 16 years old.
EIGLARSH: These people are so fearful.
HUDSON: But none of these other things that you talked about.
EIGLARSH: These people are so fearful about speaking up.
PINSKY: All right, Gentlemen. Let me jump in the middle.
PINSKY: Yes, you`re right, Mark, there is a lot of fear, it`s a lot of fear-based, a lot of closed quality to that community. That`s what we`re all sort of wondering about, and that`s what makes us wonder, how much more is going on?
But my panel returns. We`ll have more on the Warren Jeffs trial.
Now, a child who escaped from the FLDS creates some bizarre drawings. What could these twisted images tell us about sex between young girls and older men behind FLDS walls? That is next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REBECCA MUSSER, ELISSA WALL`S SISTER: He read to me part of Section 25, where a wife`s duty is to comfort her husband at his time of need. And if she did not, that she would be destroyed in the flesh.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FLORA JESSOP, FMR. FLDS MEMBER: These are the followers. And what really hit me with this was there is no expressions on any of their faces, but all of the women, or the images of girls holding babies, infants, all have pigtails, representing children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So there you go. That`s an explanation of those drawings who were made by a child who escaped the FLDS when she was 16.
Tonight, a witness says Jeffs is virtually 100 percent the father of a baby whose mother was a 15-year-old child herself. Prosecutors also playing an audio recording today of the polygamist sect leader instructing that same 15-year-old who had the baby, who was at that time 14, about his -- no, he was calling her his spiritual wife and teaching her how to please him sexually.
I can`t believe I have to even say this stuff.
Christi, tell us about those tapes. I understand at one point Jeffs began yelling over the audio?
PAUL: Well, he was yelling -- he objects to a lot of things in the courtroom. And at this point, he will object, and the judge will just say, "You`re overruled," and she`ll instruct the prosecution to continue. And Warren Jeffs will continue for a second until he just stands there, blankly, looking around -- just looking straight ahead, as though he doesn`t know what to do, and then he`ll sit down.
Part of what I think you`re referring to is some of the transcripts that were read in court today. They were very -- somewhat cryptic.
We didn`t really understand exactly what he was talking about. At one point, these are what were called revelations given to Warren Jeffs. Basically, revelations from the Lord, as he was talking about heavenly sessions and private training.
We can only read into it, what exactly those things are. But I can tell you it made for a very uncomfortable day in court, because people just weren`t sure how to interpret some of the things he was saying.
For instance, one of the things was, "You were taken into the heavenly session as a few of your ladies were in here around midnight." That was from his favored wife, who, by the way, his favored wife is also -- Naomi is also the sister of the 12-year-old alleged victim in this case, to just give you a more warped sense of exactly how this all connects together.
PINSKY: Oh, wow.
So, Mark, let me ask you, I think in the conversation we were having before the break, what was really disturbing you and me -- and we were talking to Mr. Hudson as well, and I advise him to sort of jump in here as we talk -- is not just this that is the behavior of the leaders of the community, but there is sort of a systematic kind of coercion going on. I mean, you hear this, you know, fire and brimstone, we have Jeffs, the other day, telling the judge that she was going to die, he was casting a spell on her basically.
Now, imagine you`re a 12-year-old girl and you hear this stuff. I mean, it`s pretty hard to fight that. Right? Isn`t that what we`re really talking about here?
EIGLARSH: Yes. This is so troubling to me, Drew, more so even than Casey Anthony, because there was some finality there. No one more could get harmed.
In this situation, I feel like, as I go home from taping this show, I think about these kids, that there are more of them, that this cannot be an isolated incident, that Mr. Hudson seemed to suggest, well, in the past, this would go on. And that`s not what we`re hearing from numerous witnesses. And, yes, they`re from people --
HUDSON: That is not what I suggested at all.
EIGLARSH: Well, that`s what -- that`s what I took from your conversation.
And let me just say this -- the fact that it`s from people who used to be in this cult means nothing to me. It means that these people are now honest and open and not concerned with fear and retaliation, which appears to be what those in the cult fear from those leaders who are filling in for Jeffs.
Now, if I`m wrong, I would love to be wrong. I would like to sleep at night knowing these children aren`t going to be harmed any longer.
PINSKY: Mr. Hudson?
HUDSON: Well, Mark, you haven`t got to know these families or know these children the way I have. I got to spend a lot of time with a lot of these men and their wives.
And when you talk about a closed society, the ranch itself is a very small portion of the members of this church. A lot of them live in Colorado City, out in Arizona. The women go on to college. They run companies.
These are women that I got to know and children that I interviewed before our trials. And the CPS --
PINSKY: Brandon, I want to say, I`ve talked to people, too, that even felt they had sort of a positive experience in this community. But we`re saying, though, that within it, there`s a cancer growing. And can`t we do something about that? Do we have to say it`s cloaked in religious freedom, they`re nice people?
EIGLARSH: He said stuff`s going on at the ranch. Is that what we`re talking about?
HUDSON: I`m sorry?
EIGLARSH: You mentioned about the ranch. You said outside the ranch, there`s people thriving and they`re doing well. Great for them.
Are we talking about these abhorrent acts happening in the ranch? Where is the problem? And let`s get to it.
HUDSON: Well, that`s what the state is doing, Mark.
PINSKY: Well, I`ve got to interrupt both you guys. I have to interrupt both you guys. I`m out of time.
We`ll keep this conversation going.
Coming up, of course, Casey Anthony. She`s ordered to go back home.
And next, we have got your questions on the Warren Jeffs case coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALTER BUDGEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: When you got married to Lisa, or at least when there was a marriage ceremony, you understood that that was not a legal marriage, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, sir.
BUDGEN: You did not understand --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We`ve received hundreds of your comments and questions with reactions to some of the statements you heard polygamist Warren Jeffs make in the courtroom recently. Some of you are curious. Some of you are outraged.
So let`s get right to it.
Suzette on Facebook asks, "Is it entirely possible to brainwash yourself into believing you`re always right like Warren Jeffs does? Narcissism perhaps?"
Again, we`re tossing around the term "brainwashing" a little bit here. And you don`t have to be brainwashed to believe you`re always right.
I mean, we don`t have to implicate him as having had mental illness. We don`t have to say he`s been brainwashed.
There are certainly people out there that believe they`re always right, particularly when everyone in your environment tells you are nothing but right all the time, speaking the word of God. Imagine what that would be like. Hard to feel wrong in that circumstance, I`ll tell you what.
Mary Anne has this comment: "Jeffs should be kept in prison, but his followers should be sent to mental hospitals or rehab. They must break free of his spell, then released to lead productive, cult-free lives."
You k now, when I saw that question at first, I thought, wow, I mean, I don`t want to say that these people shouldn`t have access to help and shouldn`t be sort of broken free of a certain kind of a cult, what seems to be a cult-like environment. But let`s be careful here, people.
By saying something like that, we`re saying we know better how these people should lead their lives. And that`s really not what this case is about.
It`s a funny thing. I get painted with a brush all the time as being the man telling people they shouldn`t do drugs or how they should live. I`m not telling anybody how they should live. I`m telling people who want help how to get help and get better, if that`s what they want. They have to want that.
These people may be very happy in their life. What this is about is that within that culture, a disease is festering where horrible, horrible, wrong things are happening.
And the question I keep asking here is, how do we allow things that are clearly morally reprehensible to go on in our communities, regardless of what it is cloaked in? That`s what this is about.
And whether everyone else in that community needs to pay some sort of burden for that, that`s a tougher issue. That`s a tougher issue.
All right. Mary writes, "Don`t you think we should also be voicing anger at the politicians in the area that turn their heads to crimes these types of communities commit?"
Well, of course. I mean, it`s easy to point our fingers all over the place. I mean, you`ve heard even some of the journalists pointing fingers at the press for not being sustained enough with their inquiries into this. We`re all to blame.
Listen, whenever something is going wrong amongst us, we should all bear a common burden.
Finally, Mark tweeted us. He writes, "Could you define insanity? And would that definition fit Warren Jeffs?"
Well, let me say this about that. One is, there is a very different legal definition of insanity than, say, what we in the mental health community might call crazy or insane. We talk about crazy as psychotic, and psychotic means you`re not connected with reality properly. Your thinking is disturbed. You think people are beaming thoughts into your head, you think you`re a prophet -- that can be a distorted thinking.
But the legal definition of insanity is more about not being in the condition to be able to distinguish between what is right and what is wrong. And that`s a more stringent definition of insanity.
Coming up, the Casey Anthony drama continues. Where is she? Will she serve probation?
We`ll try to get to the bottom of this mess, so stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Twists and turns in Casey Anthony`s probation order. The clock is ticking. Is she really headed back to Orlando? I`m untangling the details.
And later, Warren Jeffs child sexual assault trial day seven, a damming DNA test. Did Jeffs father a child with a 15-year-old girl? A shocking sex tape. Did he record an assault on a 12-year-old while others watched?
Plus, a disturbing portrait of the FLDS compound by a young girl who got out. You won`t believe the intricate web of intimidation she reveals. Is it really as nightmarish as it seems? I`m asking a lawyer who defends the FLDS and a former member who now fights to get women out.
JUDGE STAN STRICKLAND, NINTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT COURT OF FLORIDA: The court is going to withhold adjudication and sentence Miss Anthony to time served, which, again, is 412 days followed by one year of supervised probation.
CASEY ANTHONY, ACCUSED OF KILLING HER DAUGHTER: I just want to let everyone know that I`m sorry for what I did. I take complete and full responsibility for my actions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): That was Florida judge, Stan Strickland, who sentenced Casey Anthony back on January 25th, 2010, to serve one year of probation for check fraud. As we all know, Casey was acquitted of murder last month, but Judge Strickland has ordered Casey back in court in Orlando in 48 hours so her probation can be supervised. Now, here`s the latest. We have a letter from the Florida Department of Corrections to Casey telling her that her time has already been served.
It reads, "Dear Miss Casey, you are hereby notified that you completed your term of supervision on January 24th, 2011 as referenced and are no longer under the supervision of the Department of Corrections. I would like to extend to you your best wishes for a very successful future." Hats off there, Casey. my best wishes to you all.
What is really going on here? Here to sort of help me sort this out is former prosecutor and current criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh, and senior producer from "In Session," Michael Christian. Let me start with you, Michael. What`s going on? What`s the latest down there in Orlando?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, SR. PRODUCER, IN SESSION ON TRUTV: You know, I wish I could give you a good answer to this, Dr. Drew. It is just mass confusion. Obviously, nobody knows quite how this probation order was to be determined. Now, Judge Strickland has reissued this. He said that he always intended that Casey was to serve probation after she finished her sentence for this check fraud. She did that in jail, according to the Department of Corrections in Florida.
That`s not what the judge says he intended. So, he`s reissued this, the Department of Corrections says, well, she`s supposed to be here within 72 hours. Today is Tuesday. Seventy-two hours will be Thursday. So, at least, in theory, Casey Anthony may need to report to probation in Florida sometime on Thursday morning.
PINSKY: So if I understand you right, Michael, it was sort of an administrative mix-up where somebody said, while in prison, she had served her probation. The judge has articulated clearly that he intended it to be after jail, right? Is it possible the attorneys could make the case -- is it possible that the attorneys could make the case that because of the administrative mix-up, she`s done?
CHRISTIAN: Well, the Department of Corrections, as you say, sent her a letter saying you are finished. So, the defense says, look, if you make her do probation again, that`s double jeopardy. That`s basically making her serve this sentence two times. She`s already done it one time. You don`t have the right to do that. Now, I have been informed that -- it`s been reported within the last half an hour that Casey Anthony`s attorneys have filed an emergency motion to quash Judge Strickland`s order, to vacate it, to set it aside.
So, they are trying to get this thing put aside before Thursday if they possibly can. The problem is, if it`s -- even if it`s in the appellate process on Thursday, the Department of Correction says if Casey Anthony doesn`t show up, that might be a violation of her probation, and that is something that she could theoretically be sent back to jail for.
So, she`s kind of between a rock and a hard place here. Even if she`s appealing this, and even if it ends up being thrown out, if she`s not there on Thursday, she might be in big trouble.
PINSKY: Well, let me add one more layer of sort of concern to this whole thing, Michael, and that is -- you`re down there in Orlando. What`s the pulse like down there? I imagine marauding gangs of people looking for Casey Anthony to act out on, and people were so incensed back when the trial was finished. Are people still as crazed about this case and would she be in danger if she came back down there and had to check in for probation on a regular basis?
CHRISTIAN: You know, that`s a really good question. She said that she -- or her attorney said that she had received death threats. The department of Corrections determined that those death threats were not credible, but, all it takes is one crazy person, you know that.
CHRISTIAN: Obviously, if she is doing probation, even if something is worked out where she doesn`t do her probation in Florida, if she could -- to work it out in another state or something which is sometimes possible, there`d be records, and people would know where she was. And if there are any credible death threats against her, yes, that`s a danger.
PINSKY: Right. Certainly, HLN would know where she was. Let`s take a look at Casey Anthony`s attorney, Cheney Mason`s, statement. He says about this issue, "There was no notice. No motion. No hearing. We`ll be addressing that with all due speed and aggression as the law procedures, ethics, and judicial cannons will allow."
Mark, does Judge Strickland have the right to do this? Is it overkill? Is it standard? Is it because it is Casey Anthony and does her attorney have a point here?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I`ll try to answer all of your seven questions in one little sound bite. Strickland can --
PINSKY: Thank you, Mark.
EIGLARSH: Strickland can do it for sure. He did it at the time of sentencing. He`s not going back now and doing anything. A clerk in a bad game of telephone, like you play with a -- when you were a kid, the clerk heard something differently than what the judge said. The judge is clarifying the order. He`s not going to let the Department of Corrections as he shouldn`t dictate what his sentence is when it wasn`t necessarily heard properly.
So, he`s just saying, let me clear this up. I gave you a break by not convicting you on all of the counts. In order to do that, to make it legal, I gave you a withholding of adjudication to be followed by probation. He did it to help her out. The only way she could have gotten a conviction held back, withholding of adjudication, is to get probation. He announced that on the record, when he sentenced her.
So, he`s not going back and doing anything differently. She will have to report. I can`t see any judge, assuming Strickland is removed from this hearing, I can`t see Perry saying, you know, we`re going to ignore another judge`s notion of what the sentence should have been. I don`t see that happening.
PINSKY: So, Mark, let me understand what you`re saying. So, Mason`s point, her attorney, who we just read his statement, he doesn`t have a leg to stand on. She`s coming back in the next 48 hours and that`s that?
EIGLARSH: No, it`s not that clear. He`s passionate, he`s a good lawyer, he makes a very good argument. I just don`t think there`s merit to his argument. I think that, at some point, she`s going to have to report. At some point, she`s going to be placed on probation. And then, I think a judge will fairly determine that she`s a bit of a -- a in danger in Orange County and will allow her to go, serve her probation somewhere else.
But I cannot see her getting out of probation. It`s not double jeopardy. She never began serving her probation at all. She never reported to a probation officer. She didn`t do anything that probationer does here in Florida.
PINSKY: And one last question. Of my seven questions, the one you missed, Mark, was is this because -- is he being in some way different towards Casey because it is such a high profile -- it Is Casey Anthony, and what do you say to people who say the judge is looking for media attention?
EIGLARSH: OK. I don`t know enough about Strickland to say whether he`s grandstanding or not, but what he did in this case is no different than what`s done with all of my clients. Typically, while it`s a rare exception to have a client serve probation while they`re in custody, almost always, I`d say 98 percent, 99 percent of the time, my clients finish with their time, and then they come out and then they`re on probation. She`s not being treated any differently than any other defendant here in Florida.
PINSKY: I think you`re right. There you go. Thank you to Mark and Michael.
Next, we will talk with a private investigator who has been following the FLDS for the past seven years and has some very interesting information about the horrible, disgusting audiotape played in court today. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOICE OF WALTER BUDGEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Did you have any special knowledge of sexual relations between a man and a woman?
ALLEN STEED, ELISSA WALLS FORMER HUSBAND: No, sir.
BUDGEN: Had you had any sex education classes?
STEED: No, sir.
BUDGEN: Did you ever have any discussions with your father?
STEED: No, sir.
BUDGEN: Did you have some understanding of the basics, how a man and a woman make a baby?
STEED: Yes. Very limited.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAURIE ALLEN, FMR. FLDS MEMBER: The mother doesn`t protect her child. What chance on earth does that kid have of any kind of a decent life? These women will literally hand their children, their daughters, over to the prophet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Little girls, not yet even teenagers, are allegedly being handed over like some sort of trophy to 50-year-old men and then forced to have sex. Unbelievably happening right here in the United States, under the veil of religious freedom. We`re, of course, talking about the trial of polygamist leader, Warren Jeffs, and some awful audio evidence the prosecution has of Jeffs having sex with his 12-year-old bride.
Today, the jurors heard audio of Jeffs instructing the 14-year-old girl, this is the one he allegedly fathered a child with, on how to be a good celestial wife. Here to break it down is former FLDS member, Flora Jessop. Former prosecutor and criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh is back with us, and Sam Brower, who has investigated the FLDS for the past seven years and is author of the new book "Prophets` Prey." Sam, you were in court today. How did Warren Jeffs react to all this?
SAM BROWER, AUTHOR, "PROPHET`S PREY": He was very disruptive of the entire process, which is pretty typical. That`s a kind of standard practice for FLDS to kind of step outside the box and confound the court system, confound the whole system.
PINSKY: Sam, why do you think he recorded this stuff? I don`t even want to -- I cringe to hear your answer.
BROWER: My feeling is that he recorded it as a trophy. It`s something -- it`s sort of like Saddam Hussein went back and recorded torturings and his mayhem and would go back and watch it. Same thing with Adolf Hitler. And I feel that that`s what Warren`s done.
PINSKY: All right. Sam, help me bring something to life that Flora told us about, which was this sort of temple bed thing, and I guess, in some of these audiotapes, you can hear other people in the room. I`ve heard allegations that the other wives were there. The other clergy is there. In your research, tell me about this ritual where a 12-year-old is forced to have sex in front of leaders of the community and other women.
BROWER: Well, it`s a bizarre temple ritual. It`s known in his dictations and writings as the ordinance of the love of God, of all things. And it`s sickening. It`s disturbing. And the really sad part is this is one tape. This tape should have come out a long time ago. This tape was available five years ago of what`s going on there. And it was suppressed in Warren Jeffs` first trial in Utah.
And it was later on suppressed again by a federal judge. And so, it`s -- it`s been making the rounds, but until today, it hasn`t been made known to the public. And that`s the biggest shame is that this -- this information isn`t being put out there. It`s been suppressed by the judicial system, so far.
PINSKY: OK. Well, listen, I want to ask my defense attorney here, Mark Eiglarsh. What does Sam mean by that? Why did the judge, I guess, a federal judge sort of suppressed it for some reason? On what grounds?
EIGLARSH: Well, someone told me, and, again, I didn`t read the order that the judge found it too prejudicial, which I laugh at, you know? Most of the stuff that comes in against a defendant is prejudicial. It`s supposed to be prejudicial. And when they have a tough burden, the highest under the law, the prosecution does, to prove that sex actually took place, then what better than a piece of audiotape during the event, the abhorrent event, to prove that point?
PINSKY: So, Mark, let me get this straight. Wait, Mark, I got to get this straight, again. You know, you sort of -- you`re upsetting my stomach, as usual. And that is you telling me if I have a tape of someone being murdered, and it`s gruesome, might be too prejudicial, might be too inflammatory, can`t have that, is that what we`re saying here?
EIGLARSH: I don`t have the Pepto today, so you just going to have to deal with it. I got to wean you off that stuff. You`re becoming way too dependent on it. The reality is that judges make decisions and other judges make different decisions. Judges are free and have great leeway and latitude to make decisions based on how they feel.
A 403 balancing test where you balance the prejudicial nature and the probative value is something a judges do routinely every day. One judge can make a finding, another judge can make a completely different finding. That`s our system.
PINSKY: I`m almost as disgusted by that as I am about the tape itself. Now, I want to move off. Like I said, I`m going to deal with it, Mark, thank you for that.
PINSKY: Now, a 16-year-old girl made a disturbing drawing after she had fled the FLDS compound. Flora, who`s with me, has talked to the girl and gave us a breakdown of this drawing. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOICE OF FLORA JESSOP, FORMER FLDS MEMBER: This represents the men that Warren Jeffs has kicked out of the FLDS. And the chains around their necks represent the hold he still has over them, and the open mouths represent that they`re begging him to let them come back into the fold.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Flora, these are sort of disturbing interpretations. What would you say to people that say we`re making too much of this?
JESSOP: That was -- that was not my interpretation. That was the interpretation of the child who drew the picture. So, you know, if anybody wants to say we`re making too much of this, I was a child in this group. This child was a child in this group. This was her take on what it takes to get out. And, you know what, if anybody wants to criticize a child for her views on being abused, I`ll still give her a voice.
PINSKY: I`m with you, Flora. I understand. I just want to address the fact that, you know, I`ve been coming to you and I`m relying on you as a -- as someone who witnessed, an eyewitness of the abuse that goes on, and I`m taking what you say to be allegations that have some credibility. My question to you is, we`ve heard back from various sources that people are critical of you and not just from the FLDS community.
What do we say to those people that say, oh my, God, waterboarding, there`s no evidence of that. You heard Mr. Hudson earlier in the show saying that. We have people saying, oh, this temple ritual, never heard of such a crazy thing, and yet, Sam`s research just reconfirmed it again. So, I want to say, now, we have two sources talking about this. But what do you say to people that come back with those sort of criticisms?
JESSOP: You know, Dr. Drew, I have been doing this -- this work for 20 years. And I`ve been listening to criticism for 20 years. I knew when I started fighting for my family, for my sisters, for my brothers, for my cousins and nieces and nephews that I was going to make enemies. That was a decision that was very difficult to make. I knew I would lose my mother by fighting for these kids.
But, guess what, somebody had to stand up and give voice to the victims, the children. And it was a decision I stand by. I will stand by it for -- until my dying breath. And if anybody wants to criticize me for coming forward and telling the truth, I take it, and I`ll stand proud with it.
PINSKY: OK. That`s fine. And I just want to sort of put another sort of pointed sort of comment about this, which is we have smart attorneys I talked to, we have people in the community who are journalists and what not. Do you think that they have just drank the Kool-Aid, so to speak, of some of the community members who have come out and manipulated them or are there some members of the community -- or some members of the community just having a good life and those are the people they`ve interacted with?
JESSOP: You know, I think that there is good people and bad people. I`m not saying -- I`m not saying that everybody in the FLDS is a bad person, at all. What I am saying is that when you have this magnitude of abuse as the evidence is showing in this case, you have to stand up and become one of the good guys or you become one of the bad guys.
PINSKY: I think, Flora, that is well said. I have to take a break. I have to interrupt you and take a break. I think that`s very, very well said. The way I see it is there`s a cancer, and that cancer is wrong, and when we see a wrong, we have an obligation to make a right. We`ll be right back with my panel again after this. Keep this conversation going.
PINSKY: Should FLDS mothers or the community as a whole also be held responsible for the rape and sexual abuse of these young girls? Back with me to discuss this is former FLDS member, Flora Jessop. I also have investigator, Sam Brower, with me again. Sam, you think some of these mothers should be prosecuted for looking the other way. Co-mission and omission, equal in your eyes.
BROWER: Absolutely. For instance, Sally Jeffs, who went on TV after the raid in Texas, was asked repeatedly if she`d ever seen any abuse going on, if she`d ever seen an underage marriage. Well, she was at the marriage of 12-year-old Mary Ann Jessop, the tape that is being played right now.
Mothers are the ones who take the daughters by the hand and place it in the hand of the older man. It goes on constantly. And, at some point, the mothers were victims. and they crossed that line, and they turned into perpetrators.
PINSKY: That`s right. And that`s the conundrum. That`s the conundrum here is the children for whom we are crying out today can potentially be the victimizers of the future. Flora, I want to ask you about that. I mean, the level of coercion, believing that you`re going to go to hell or believing you go to heaven or your family is going to reject you, the power of that must be just profound.
JESSOP: It is. It`s extremely hard. And, you know, Dr. Drew, I got to tell you, sitting in that courtroom today and listening to this training that Warren Jeffs was doing to these poor little girls was very, very difficult for me, because I really -- I`m sitting there and I`m listening to this, and it took me back to when my dad was abusing me, and it was the exact same language.
And I realized probably for the first time the depth of the systemic abuse that is occurring in the FLDS, because they`ve been using this for 30 years.
PINSKY: I`ve seen you get emotional. I know we`re at quite a distance here, but this really, you seem really disturbed today. And it has to be disturbing. It just has to be.
JESSOP: Yes, it is, because I know it`s happening to thousands of kids. So, if anybody out there wants to criticize me for trying to stop this, then I say bring it.
PINSKY: Well, we`ll keep talking to you, Flora, I guarantee it, and I appreciate the information you`ve been giving us. And, Sam, you, of course, corroborate what she`s saying. Sam, I`ve got about a minute here. Give me, you know, give me the bird`s-eye view of what you discovered. You`re the one who`s done lots of research. What are the facts here in about 40 seconds. I know it`s a big task to give you 40 seconds, but give me a shot at it.
BROWER: Well, the facts are this has been -- Warren Jeffs has been operating with impunity for years. His behavior isn`t brand-new. It`s learned behavior. When I first came into it, I went through the Alta Academy with Brent Jeffs who was raped and sodomized by Warren. I don`t believe that Warren just came up with that. I think that he learned that behavior.
It`s something that was systemic within the religion, and that turned my stomach. That changed the case for me into something that I couldn`t turn my back on. And I became very tenacious about finding out what`s going on.
PINSKY: I`m running out of time. I have to interrupt you, but with those words, that`s where I want to stop tonight, which is we can`t turn our back on this either. There is something wrong, and we have to make it right. And we will keep you up-to-date on the Warren Jeffs case tomorrow. Thank you all for watching. We`re going to keep this conversation going. I will see you then.