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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Congress on Vacation; Hosni Mubarak on Trial
Aired August 3, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: We begin tonight, as we always do, "Keeping Them Honest" -- them tonight being these guys, lawmakers who are taking five weeks off, instead of finishing their work, five weeks.
Here they are adjourning for their summer recess. And if you're thinking recess, just like in second grade, well, you're not alone. By the way, in January, House members scheduled more than 23 weeks off this year, 23.
Now, that will likely age some of you, but that's not the worst of it. It turns out as a result of this current five-week adjournment, as many as 74,000 Americans might be losing their paychecks. That's because badly-needed construction at American airports is at a standstill. Air safety inspectors, for instance, are working without any pay.
And the government is not collecting $200 million a week in airline ticket taxes. That's a billion tax dollars lost between now and when Congress gets back to work. Now, remember, the lawmakers responsible for blowing this hole in the budget just spent months railing about the deficit. And when they got done with that, all they could talk about was jobs and how they are going to be focused on creating jobs.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: The American people's top priority is the creation of jobs.
SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV), MAJORITY LEADER: Creating jobs for the American people.
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), MINORITY LEADER: Create jobs in America.
REP. ROSA DELAURO (D), CONNECTICUT: Create jobs.
REP. STENY HOYER (D-MD), HOUSE MINORITY WHIP: Create jobs.
SEN. JON KYL (R-AZ), MINORITY WHIP: Job creation.
SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: Focus on jobs.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: New jobs. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jobs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jobs.
PELOSI: Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs.
SEN. JOHN THUNE (R), SOUTH DAKOTA: Jobs.
HOYER: Talking about jobs.
SEN. LAMAR ALEXANDER (R), TENNESSEE: Talking about jobs.
PELOSI: And now it's time to talk about jobs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: All right. Let's talk about jobs. Here's one, Neil Bolen's job with the FAA. He's now on furlough.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NEIL BOLEN, FAA EMPLOYEE: I have a hard time understanding their partisan bickering and their rhetoric. We're reaching into our investments, savings. Signed up for unemployment. And that's barely going to make the electric bill, much less the water and mortgage. So, yes, we're incredibly disappointed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: He says Congress could have prevented his ordeal with just a day's work. Now, here's why they failed to.
It's a little complex but it's worth knowing. Since 2007, the FAA has been running on short-term funding bills that routinely passed through Congress, almost like the debt limit, until now. This time, politics have intruded with Republicans inserting language about rural airports and FAA unionization into the process, neither of which Democrats support.
Now, you can decide for yourself if you're for subsidizing rural airports or whether or not the FAA should unionize. I'm not taking a position on that. That's not my job. That's for you to decide. But "Keeping Them Honest," we could not find any other instance of either party, Democrats or Republicans, attaching any controversial additions to one of these temporary funding bills. And there have been at least 20 of these over the years. And not once has this happened.
So the bottom line, no vote despite repeated calls from the White House and Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood to get to work to get to some kind of agreement so people don't lose their jobs.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Don't put the livelihoods of thousands of people at risk. Don't put projects at risk. And don't let $1 billion at a time when we're scrambling for every dollar we can get left on the table because Congress did not act.
RAY LAHOOD, U.S. SECRETARY OF TRANSPORTATION: Congress is on vacation. What I'm asking Congress to do is come back from their vacation, pass a clean bill, which they have done on 20 other occasions, so that the FAA people did not have to go without paychecks and a lot -- thousands of construction workers right in the middle of the construction season are out of work.
Now, I have heard a lot of speeches around here about doing jobs, getting jobs, helping to get jobs. Well, what I want members of Congress to do is not only talk the talk about jobs. Walk the walk. Vote to extend the FAA and put thousands of people back to work. Come back from your vacation, pass a bill, the way you have done on 20 other occasions. This is not fair to average, ordinary citizens who are out of work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Again, they're taking five weeks off. And, again, it's not like they're lacking for vacation time. That's five weeks out of 23 weeks on the 2011 calendar at the beginning of the year.
So while they're taking it easy or talking in their districts or fund-raising, as many as 74,000 others are unable to work at all.
Joining us now is congressional correspondent Kate Bolduan, Democratic strategist Paul Begala, and Republican strategist Alex Castellanos.
So, Kate, what is going on? Is this really just a fight over a couple of small town airports?
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, in part, at least ostensibly -- ostensibly. Sorry, Anderson.
This is what's going on. There are two things going on. It has to do with this union issue that you mentioned. Republicans put this union -- a change to union rules and how the federal rules kind of apply to airlines and unionizing there.
And they want to change the rules. Democrats clearly are balking at this and they are opposed to it. That's the long-term funding bill. Then in the short-term extension, Democrats are calling for a clean extension that would just extend it as they have in the past. Republicans are opposing that. And so they're pushing their own extension that has to do with these subsidies for rural airports that Democrats are balking at again and opposing. And Republicans then say that they're protecting wasteful spending that they see.
But -- so it seems like the same finger-pointing that we were seeing in the debt debate is just extending into this. And everyone says the other side is the one holding up this process, when the FAA employees are the only ones that are becoming the victims here. And I think a little bit of what's going on here is following this debt debate, there are some serious bruised egos and some resentment on both sides. And so they're really, really digging in here.
COOPER: Paul Begala, why not just either pass this short-term extension, even if it's not perfect, or have some leadership and actually come up with either a compromise or come up with some sort of a deal?
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I have no idea, Anderson. If I had hair, it would be on fire. This is the kind of thing that makes you crazy.
But I have to say, the president did a disservice today to this story -- and I think sometimes we in the media do -- when he seemed to say that both parties are equally at fault. The president today said -- and I'm quoting him -- "This is another Washington-inflicted wound on America."
Well, no, sir, with all due respect, it's a Republican-inflicted wound on America, and not even all Republicans. A lot of Republicans think this is crazy, too. Kay Bailey Hutchison, the top senator on the committee of jurisdiction in the Senate, has already said it's not honorable what the House is doing. So I don't want to paint all Republicans with a brush.
But there is a new way of doing business for some in the Republican Party. And it is not the regular order. Even the most mundane issues like whether we should subsidize air service to Ely, Nevada, now all of a sudden becomes something that's worth shutting down the FAA and putting 74,000 people out of work. It's crazy.
COOPER: And, Alex, $1 billion in taxes are not being collected right now, $1 billion. If nothing else shouldn't that be enough to get anyone in Congress who claims to care about the deficit to try to come up with some sort of solution for this?
ALEX CASTELLANOS, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Oh, you would think, wouldn't you? You kind of want to put them all in an airplane that can't land until they fix this.
COOPER: But, you know, we have just had a big spending debate for it seemed like eternity here in Washington on this debt ceiling. And one thing I think Democrats and Republicans can all agree is that if we can stop wasting money we don't have, money we have to borrow, money we have to eventually get our kids to pay, we ought to try to do that.
How much should one of these airplane tickets cost from Ely, Nevada, to the closest hub? Well, it turns out we're subsidizing each of these tickets from $1,000 to $3,700 each ticket. That seems to be a place we could save some bucks.
You could hire a limo, fill it with champagne and drive each one of these passengers and save money. And we can't even agree on saving that kind of money? Republicans put a bill that would do that on the table. Democrats said no. And you know what Harry Reid did? He did the honorable thing. He said, look, I urge my colleagues to vote for this. Sometime, you have to think about what's best for your country. And Rockefeller and other senators said no. They are holding Harry Reid hostage on this.
COOPER: So, Paul, I mean, Alex is clearly seeing it a completely different way.
BEGALA: Well, look, Senator Reid, who Alex is right, he's the Senate majority leader, his small town in his state of Ely, Nevada, is one of the towns that's been singled out for this.
He sent a letter to Speaker Boehner today -- I have a copy of it here -- where he says, I will be willing to compromise on the Essential Air Services issue during negotiations on the final bill in order to pass a clean extension.
Reid is doing everything he can do. But just like the debt ceiling he doesn't have a partner to negotiate with. And this is what bothers me. Again it's more about process. The founding fathers gave us a regular order for resolving these disputes. My goodness, this is not slavery. This is not civil rights. This is whether we should subsidize air travelers in Ely, Nevada.
Alex may be right. The Republicans may be right. But it's not worth putting 74,000 people out of work. There's a process. So you extend it for a couple of weeks or a couple of months, then you come back to a committee and a conference committee and you work out these things. They do this every day in Congress.
COOPER: Or, Alex, what about just not taking your vacation until this gets done? I'm not taking a side of whether Republicans are right in this or the Democrats. I don't know.
But I do know that for government to work, people have to make decisions. And whether it's a compromise or one side wins or the other, that's how things get done. And right now, nothing's getting done.
CASTELLANOS: You know, if you -- and I think some folks at home are looking at this and are so disgusted with what they're seeing in Washington that next election we could see, I think, one of the biggest rejection of incumbents that we have seen in a long time. It could be vote them all out.
Last election, we saw some survey numbers that said, if you could vote everybody from both parties out and start over, would you? And it was over 60 percent. I think it could be higher this time.
But on this specific issue, Anderson, you said you couldn't find anything going back 20 years where anybody had tied something like this, a spending reduction, to a routine bill.
Yes. And that's the problem. We never cut spending on anything. We always push it back to tomorrow. And tomorrow never comes. So we're in a crisis situation where one of these days our kids are going to be empty of tears because they're going to sweat their whole lives to pay debts that we, our parents, are leaving them.
COOPER: Right. But now we're still pushing it back. We're now pushing it back five weeks so that they can take their vacation. I'm just -- it's the vacation thing that I get this is how Washington works and these are what debates are about. I just don't get why they get to adjourn when things are still up in the air.
BOLDUAN: In the short term, in the short term, this could be fixed pretty quickly. They would just need to come to an agreement. They don't even need to pull all the senators and members of Congress back to Washington necessarily. They have to come to an agreement. Both the House and the Senate have procedural ways to pull this off.
COOPER: And, Kate, President Obama said that might happen this week. Is that likely?
BOLDUAN: Likely? I would not go that far. I would say that Speaker Boehner issued a statement today and it did not seem like he was so inclined to be trying to make this agreement. And it's not unheard of for the House speaker to call them all back in.
Nancy Pelosi did that last year when she was speaker of -- last summer when she was speaker of the House. It just doesn't seem like anyone's ready to blink and to make that move at this moment. So the idea of the vacation is frustrating for many people, but they can do this work while they're still on vacation and still going to their constituency events or whatever. They can get this done and they can get it done quickly. They just don't want to at the moment.
Kate, Paul, Alex, guys, thank you very much.
Let us know what you think. We're on Facebook. Follow me on Twitter. I'm already talking to folks on Twitter about this. There's a lot of anger about this -- @AndersonCooper, that's my Twitter address. I will be tweeting tonight.
Up next, Egypt's former dictator in court on a gurney in a cage, the court trying to hold him accountable for the deaths during the uprising that drove him from power. He says he's not responsible. But how can he not be responsible? We're "Keeping Them Honest" and taking you back to those terrifying moments when his thugs tried to preserve his regime.
In "Crime & Punishment" tonight: polygamist leader Warren Jeffs' opening statement in his own defense after jurors heard a tape of him allegedly having sex with a 12-year-old girl. A lot of folks in the courtroom said that it was the most disturbing thing they have ever heard. Court adjourned for the day. Gary Tuchman's got a live report.
COOPER: Egypt's former dictator went on trial today and the images were extraordinary. Tens of millions of Egyptians watched on TV the man who ruled them for decades lying on a medical gurney inside an iron cage, in there with him his two sons trying to block the cameras, his former interior minister and six cops.
Mubarak is charged with corruption and complicity in killings during the uprising that drove him from power. Today, when asked by the judge, he said -- quote -- "I deny them completely" about the charges.
"Keeping Them Honest," though, is that even remotely possible or plausible? Mubarak ruled a police state for 30 years with a massive internal security machine that was able to put violent and often deadly mobs on the streets at will. He oversaw a secret police infamous for their use of brutality and torture.
Not responsible? Remember, you saw it when pro-Mubarak thugs suddenly turned up en masse to attack reporters and demonstrators. It started the night of February 1. And we were on the air when the first thugs started to arrive.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Behind us we have basically a rent-a-mob of pro-Mubarak supporters who have been mobilized at this been mobilized at this late hour to chant, you know, that the press are traitors and agents. And this is very much --
COOPER: Do you think these guys are paid to do this?
WEDEMAN: I don't think there's any doubt about it. I have seen demonstrations like this in Egypt for years.
There are people who have such a stake in this regime that they're coming out like this, they're being paid perhaps to come out like this to show support for the Mubarak regime. This is typical for instance of Egyptian elections. Oftentimes they come out in favor of Mubarak and it turns out that they have been paid 20 pounds apiece to do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, they started throwing rocks that night.
The next day, before full-on warfare against protesters, government thugs attacked reporters in the streets. My crew and I were attacked by thugs in Cairo's Liberation Square.
A short time later, more attackers, this time on camelback, rampaged through the square, beating bloody anyone in their path. Remember, at the time, security forces, military, surrounded Liberation Square. No one got in unless they were allowed in by the government. Hard to see how stick-wielding mounted thugs could do what they did without government say-so in a place like Egypt.
And throughout it all, the Mubarak propaganda machine was simultaneously blaming the violence on foreigners and outside agitators, Al-Jazeera and Israel and others, while fomenting new violence. That night, we broadcast practically undercover on the floor.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: This is not exactly how we had planned to bring you tonight's program, but the situation changes here minute by minute in Cairo, especially today. Given what we have seen today, this is just yet another development. Just in the last few minutes, we have heard heavy fire in Liberation Square. We have got video that was taken just a short time ago, heavy-caliber fire heard in the square. We will talk to our Ivan Watson, who is there, in just a moment.
But I just want to tell you we are broadcasting from a location that we thought was pretty safe, up until about half-an-hour ago. Then, after that heavy fire, we got a report that pro-Mubarak forces have left the area around Liberation Square, and have now fanned out in some other neighborhoods.
And the security situation, where we are, has changed somewhat in the last 30 minutes or so. We have been advised to actually turn off our lights, get down on the floor and try to barricade ourselves in the area that we're in.
So that's what -- that's why we're doing this program like this tonight. It's not going to look very good over the next hour, but I hope you bear with us, because what has happened today in Egypt on these streets has been nothing short of extraordinary.
The entire situation has changed here in the last 12 hours. People have died who did not need to die and people will die tonight who do not need to die. And there were many people wounded today. And we don't have actual numbers for you.
But what we have seen has been nothing short of a pitched battle for the future of this country on the streets of this country, outside the Egyptian Museum and inside and all around Liberation Square.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: We were literally barricaded with sofas and chairs inside an office at that point.
That's just a small slice of what we could seek shelter from. But many Egyptians weren't so lucky. Embassy International estimates that 840 people were killed in the uprising. Tens of millions of Egyptians spent weeks in sheer terror and many more spent their entire lives in fear of an absolute dictatorship. And Mubarak says he's not responsible, the former dictator claiming he wasn't responsible for the brutality and not responsible and shouldn't be held accountable.
We talked about it earlier with David Kirkpatrick of "The New York Times" and Fareed Zakaria, host of "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS" here on CNN.
COOPER: Fareed, to hear Mubarak saying he's innocent of everything basically and didn't order the attacks on protesters, I mean, when you were an absolute dictator of a country for many, many years, it suddenly seems ridiculous for somebody to claim, oh, look, I had no responsibility for what was happening.
FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN WORLD AFFAIRS ANALYST: No, the complicating factor here, Anderson, is he's almost certainly guilty of the charges that have been laid against him.
But it still has the feeling of I don't want to say a show trial, but a trial that is not fair. I wish that the Egyptian government realized that this is really a very important moment for them. They need to get this right.
COOPER: David, that image of this once all-powerful dictator reduced to a sickly man inside a cage has got to be an incredibly powerful image for the people of Egypt.
DAVID KIRKPATRICK, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Yes. It's absolutely breathtaking. And you have got to remember, this is a country where there has never been a living ex-president, much less a president or ex-president brought before the law.
It's something that I think most Egyptians -- I know most Egyptians truly could not believe.
COOPER: Fareed, how do you think the trial is going to play in other places where dictators are no doubt watching this very closely?
ZAKARIA: Well, it's not just in places where there were dictators are in trouble. This is a phenomenon across the Arab world. Everyone is watching it.
And that's one of the reasons why I think it's so important that the Egyptians do it in a way that makes it clear that this is an impartial process, that there is real due process. But there's no question everyone around the Arab world is watching now. It is having the effect of making a Moammar Gadhafi feel like, why the hell should I leave? I'm going to end up in jail and get tried.
But that's always one of the downsides of this kind of thing, when you punish one of these dictators.
COOPER: David, leading up to the trial, there were all sorts of questions about whether Mubarak was really sick or how sick he was, maybe his doctors, his defense team were exaggerating. Do you think those questions were put to rest today, or do you think it still remains a question of whether he's kind of faking it? KIRKPATRICK: Well, on the one hand, for sure his defense team was exaggerating. They said he had cancer. They said he had a stroke. They said he was in a coma. None of those things were true.
At the same time, it's just not plausible that somebody like Mubarak, with his pride, his military (INAUDIBLE) carried into the courtroom on a stretcher to plead for sympathy. There's no way that was staged.
And if I can speak for a second to what Fareed was saying, at every step towards this trial, the military tribunal that is running the country right now has seemed to be responding to political pressure from the street. So, yes, it doesn't -- there's nothing about this that seems particularly fair or well-thought-out. I don't think that really bothers the Egyptian people right now.
COOPER: Do you think in fact, David, that this gives legitimacy -- in the eyes of the Egyptian people, legitimacy to the military government?
KIRKPATRICK: I think very much so. I think a lot of Egyptians last week were thinking, these guys will never put their former boss on trial. And yet here it is. And it may be that they were forced to by street demonstrations and by a fear of continued unrest.
But I think to most Egyptians, that the popular will has that kind of power is closer than they have ever been to the rule of law.
ZAKARIA: You know, Anderson, revolutions are very big phenomena and they sometimes can take on a life of their own.
ZAKARIA: And I think what's happening here in Egypt is that it is taking on a life of its own. Public appetites have to be fed. And there is a public rage, an understandable public rage, because of 30 to 40, 50 years of dictatorship. And Mubarak has come to symbolize it. This was something they could do to feed the...
COOPER: We have also seen huge protests in which the military has cracked down on protesters, tortured protesters, done virginity checks on women. There's been a lot of outrage about that. And just recently, this weekend, we saw a huge pro-Islamist demonstration in Tahrir Square, tens of thousands of Islamists calling for a strict adherence to Islamic law.
Where is the Egyptian revolution at this point? I mean, is it a cliche to say it's at a turning point?
ZAKARIA: Well, you know, I think it's in suspension. When I was in Egypt a month or two ago, the situation was very similar. And a young protester who had spent all her days and nights in Tahrir Square said to me, you know, I went through this whole process to get rid of Egypt's military dictatorship. And when I look around, everyone in the world thinks that our revolution has succeeded, but I'm living in a military dictatorship.
COOPER: David, before I let you go, I just want to turn to Libya, where you are now. You just had an interview with Saif Gadhafi, who is now claiming that the Gadhafi regime is forming a secret alliance with radical Islamists. Is that for real or is that just some sort of a scare tactic or attempt to get attention or ruffle Western feathers?
KIRKPATRICK: You know, at one point in the interview, he said, it's kind of a funny story.
And I said, well, does that mean you're joking?
And he said, no, no, no. I'm very serious. We're going to announce this in days in a joint communique.
He even identified the Libyan Islamist who he said was his sort of counterparty in these talks to form a kind of alliance. But when I called up, when our folks called up that Islamist, who is based in Doha, he said, no, no, no, nothing of the kind. I have had conversations with Saif, but all those conversations have been, you and your family need to leave power right away.
I suspect that he almost was enjoying taunting the West with the prospect that by (INAUDIBLE) Libyan rebels, you may inadvertently be helping a brutal Islamist take power.
ZAKARIA: It's totally plausible, Anderson. Gadhafi has for 40 years massacred Islamists. And in fact, the principal military threats to his regime over the last three decades have all come from the Islamists, whom he then brutally suppressed. The idea that these guys would tie up with him is very implausible.
COOPER: Fareed Zakaria, David Kirkpatrick.
Thank you so much, David. Stay safe.
KIRKPATRICK: OK. Thanks a lot.
COOPER: Fascinating stuff.
Up next: disturbing stuff showing how Phillip and Nancy Garrido preyed on children. Remember, they're the couple who kidnapped Jaycee Dugard, held her captive for 18 years in their backyard. You are going to see now and hear how they lured little girls into a van to videotape them. It's the kind of thing we have all heard about. To actually know that these folks did that, it is sickening, serves as a warning to us all.
Later: The Warren Jeffs sexual assault trial grows stranger by the day. Last night, we reported on the bizarre courtroom drama. Well, we will talk to Gary Tuchman about what happened today in the courtroom that shocked a lot of hardened courtroom watchers.
COOPER: "Up Close" tonight: disturbing videos released by the district attorney's office in El Dorado County, California.
The office prosecuted and convicted Phillip and Nancy Garrido for the kidnapping and rape of Jaycee Dugard, who was held captive, as you know, for 18 years.
Now, it released the videos to show the public how criminals like the Garridos operate. In the first excerpt, Nancy Garrido has lured a little girl into a van. Now, the little girl is not Jaycee Dugard. This happened, though, after Jaycee Dugard had already been taken -- lured a girl into a van to videotape her.
And she coaxes the child to do splits. Now, the videos were shot for her husband's gratification, if you can believe it. The DA's office blurred the images. CNN has decided not to air the child's voice. So you will hear gaps in the audio.
And we want to warn you again the audio with the young children is disturbing, but important, we think, for everyone to hear, especially for parents, because we all have heard about this kind of stuff. But to actually see it, it really brings it home and makes it real. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GARRIDO, WIFE OF PHILLIP GARRIDO: Can you go all the way down? Let me see. I bet you can go down really easy, huh? Let me see you do it. Oh, you didn't show me your split, did you? Let me see it now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: After arrest, Garrido was questioned by law enforcement officer on videotape. They talked about videotaping girls in the van and how often it went on. You're going to hear a couple of beeps. They're on the tape.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You had a camera set up in the van?
N. GARRIDO: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For the direct purpose of getting leg shots and (EXPLETIVE DELETED) shots for him?
N. GARRIDO: Mm-hmm.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So this is kind of a set up. I mean, this is what you're going to do, this is how you're going to do it, right? You indicated that numerous times kids were brought into the van.
N. GARRIDO: Mm-hmm. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I thought you might have indicated that it happened both at your house and maybe at other locations? Is that true?
N. GARRIDO: Mm-hmm.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was obviously something Phil wanted you to do for him. And what was your task in all of this? I mean, what were you supposed to get of these girls? As much leg and (EXPLETIVE DELETED) shots as you could? Get them to do gymnastics?
N. GARRIDO: Stuff like that, general stuff like that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you were supposed to sit down next to them, play nice, sound interested, and somehow coax them into moving around and so they could be videotaped?
N. GARRIDO: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How many incidents are we talking about, you getting the kids in the van and actually doing a face-to-face taping as opposed to out in the parking lot? I mean, are we talking less than 20? More than 20?
N. GARRIDO: It's got to be less than 20.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somewhere between 10 and 20?
N. GARRIDO: Maybe.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somewhere maybe -- somewhere in that thing?
N. GARRIDO: Maybe. Or maybe less. Maybe just ten.
COOPER: A short time ago I spoke with Dr. Drew Pinsky, host of Dr. Drew on HLN.
COOPER: Dr. Drew, the state awhile ago had released a few tapes. And we talked about them on this program. And I got some tweets from people saying, you know, "Why are you showing this? It's disturbing." And these new tapes are incredibly disturbing.
But I find them important to watch, to see. Because we all know there's dangers out there. And yet people still -- you know, I mean, kids are still getting into vans with creepy people in them.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST, HLN'S "DR. DREW": Yes. You know, I mean, there's a couple points to be made, Anderson. One is that, although it's a cliche that someone would come up and offer candy and lure a child into the van, the fact is that kind of thing does exist.
The other issue is, should we be watching these films? I mean, they're not explicit. They're just disturbing. And I think, because the normal person's mind just doesn't work that way, it is important to take a good, hard look at these things so you understand, in an unvarnished way, what it is you're looking for to keep your kids safe.
COOPER: And Nancy Garrido luring a child into a van, having her do splits, videotaping her for her husband's gratification later, I mean, what is -- what is going through her mind? Because I mean, he's clearly sick. I mean, he's clearly, you know, a monster.
COOPER: But what's going on in her mind?
PINSKY: Yes. I had a feeling you were going to kind of go there. Because this is the part that's so difficult to understand. How someone could become so dependent, so controlled by another person that she could collude in something that is absolutely depraved.
But the fact is, this guy was -- let's call it what it is -- sort of a genius at mind control and bring -- picking somebody would -- again I'm not talking about the captive. I'm talking about this woman we're seeing in the video here. Picking someone who has such profound dependency needs, that needs from him attention so far that she is willing to go to any length, probably without giving it much thought at all.
COOPER: And even there's the video where she's videotaping him at the playground. You know, again it's just one of those things. People should look out for this kind of stuff, people videotaping at a playground. I mean, it seems so basic.
PINSKY: It does seem so basic. And yet we have to remind ourselves that these things exist.
And you know, here's the message to parents out there. It's unfortunate that we live in a time where we have to be so hyper vigilant, but that's the times we live in, No. 1. And No. 2, trust your instincts.
COOPER: Well, it's not just a failure of people's imaginations to kind of think of what horrible people can do, but also of the state, I mean, of the government who -- you know, they sent parole officers there who didn't really do thorough searches, who could have found Jaycee Dugard, had they really searched the property.
PINSKY: Yes. And that is a bigger issue that we've got to deal with. And it really boils down to the issue of patterns of depravity, the patterns of criminal behavior.
You know, back in the 18th Century we had a model system of penitentiaries where people paid penance, and they were improved when they got out of these penitentiary systems. We have no such thing right now. We have people that have profound, lifelong traumas -- excuse me, profound, lifelong patterns of severe criminal behavior.
And each one tends to get looked at almost on its own merit as an isolated incident rather than looking at the overall pattern and realizing some people are not going to change, and when they get out of the locked system, the contained system, they have to be treated with the same scrutiny as if they were in a locked system.
COOPER: Yes. And fascinating the video that we've just been showing of Nancy Garrido videotaping when the parole officer came to the house and was searching. She was basically kind of trying to, I guess, put pressure on this guy to get out quicker. Again not effective searches.
Dr. Drew, thanks.
PINSKY: Appreciate it.
COOPER: We're following other stories tonight. Tom Foreman has the "360 Bulletin" -- Tom.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The United Nations has denounced Syria's brutal crackdown on protesters. The Security Council released a statement today condemning the use of force against civilians and called for an immediate end to violence by all parties. Dozens of people have been killed in the last few days, including at least four today.
Haiti and the Dominican Republic are bracing for Tropical Storm Emily, which is expected to hit the two countries with strong winds and heavy rains. National Hurricane Center says Emily is packing winds of 50 miles per hour.
As relief agencies desperately try to feed starving Somalians, the U.N. announced today that famine has spread to three more regions of that African country, including the capital city of Mogadishu. Civil war in Somalia is making it hard to get food to those who need it
And in New York, maybe that wandering peacock just needed a day to be alone. It escaped from the Central Park Zoo yesterday, and there it is, perched on a window sill. But zoo officials now say the peacock flew back home this morning.
COOPER: Wow, that's cool.
FOREMAN: A little homing pigeon.
COOPER: Maybe he just needed a little time away. Just a little vacay.
Tom, we'll check in with you shortly.
Tonight's "Shot," you know the old saying music calms the savage beast. A mariachi band serenaded a beluga whale at the Mystic Aquarium in Connecticut. Watch.
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COOPER: I like how the beluga whale seems to be like nodding its head almost to the music. It certainly looks curious, at the very least. The band was at the aquarium to perform at a wedding, apparently. So who knew?
Tom, did you know that belugas like mariachi?
FOREMAN: I didn't know this. This reminds me so much of my prom.
COOPER: Of your prom?
FOREMAN: Very similar. Very similar.
COOPER: Who were you -- which character were you?
FOREMAN: I don't want to say.
COOPER: Up next on 360, another wild day in the courtroom during the sexual assault trial of Warren Jeffs. An audio tape was played. It left at least one juror in tears. When Jeffs presented his defense case, things got even more bizarre
Also ahead, a judge in Florida giving Casey Anthony a break. We'll explain what happened to her ahead.
COOPER: Well, in our "Crime & Punishment" segment today, the trial of polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs is getting close to the end but not before getting even more dramatic and stranger.
Court resumes tomorrow morning when Jeffs will continue presenting his own defense in his sexual assault trial. Now, after plenty of dramatic audiotape that seemed to shock and sadden jury members, prosecution rested its case early today. Now on that tape Jeffs is heard allegedly having sex with a 12-year-old girl.
Joining me live from San Angelo is Gary Tuchman; also KTVK (ph) award-winning investigative reporter Mike Watkiss.
So Gary, the prosecution closed its case playing this audio. I heard a lot of people in the court saying it was among the more disturbing things they've every heard. What could you -- what did you hear and how did the jury react?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It was very disturbing. Not just for the jury but for the 150 of us in the courtroom is packed listening to a 50-year-old man apparently have sex with a 12-year-old girl. And she was just 11 years old the month before.
What makes it worse, Anderson, is that Warren Jeffs does not deny the accusations in court. But this audio tape, what it showed was that Warren Jeffs regularly taped these sexual experiences he had. And he called them training sessions for heavenly wives.
But what happened in this audio tape, we heard Warren Jeffs say, "It feels good. How do you feel?" And this little girl voice said, "Very good." It was so sad because we've seen pictures of her in court. She's small for her age. She has red hair. She was described by a witness as having red hair and freckles, and she looks like Pippy Longstocking.
And then at one point at the very end Warren Jeffs said, "What do you feel?"
And she said, "I feel fine. Thank you." And the tape lasted 20 minutes, Anderson. There was heavy breathing. It was very uncomfortable and sad being there, but the prosecution feels they need to play it for this jury.
COOPER: And Mike -- and then after all this, Mike, then it was -- the prosecution rests, and then it's Warren Jeffs's turn to present this case. And you say that's when it became like the theater of the absurd.
MIKE WATKISS, JOURNALIST: Yes. I think that's a pretty accurate description. Mr. Jeffs is not a lawyer, and he proved that today.
First of all, he begged and pleaded and stammered in front of the judge, asking for more time to prepare. He said, "You've had years to prepare for this. You're on at 3 p.m. this afternoon."
He then got up and basically did a 30-minute stump speech, sort of a stump sermon, the kind of thing that he delivers before his flock, talking about religious history and the persecution of his people over the last 150 years. Your eyes glazed over.
At this point Mr. Jeffs has interjected and sermonized so much in this -- this trial, you wonder what the impact is on the jury. And juxtapose that with this tape, where you have this meek little girl talking and Mr. Jeffs apparently having sex. It was very impactful, I think, for all of us in the courtroom today.
COOPER: And Gary, he called as his first witness a member of the FLDS, but they didn't really -- he still hasn't addressed the allegations against him, right?
TUCHMAN: Well, that's right, Anderson. We didn't know he would call a witness. Then all of a sudden he call one of his followers, a guy we know. And it basically felt like an FLDS Sunday school session. The "Book of Mormon" was brought in as their first piece of evidence. And they basically read the "Book of Mormon" to each other.
And Warren Jeffs' defense is not that he didn't have this sex. His defense is that this is a violation of his freedom of religion. And he got his witness, the member of his church, to say that yes, throughout history Mormons' religion has been violated. But then, when the prosecution cross-examined this man, they said to him, "Do you believe Warren Jeffs is a prophet?" He said yes. "Do you believe Warren Jeffs talks to God?" And he said yes. Then they said, "But do you have sex with 15-year-old girls?" And the man had a lawyer with him. He talked to his lawyer before he said anything. Then he said no. "Do you have sex with 12-year-old girls?" And he said no. "Do you have sex with a lot of girls at once," which Warren Jeffs apparently does in these tapes. And the man said no.
The point the prosecution is trying to make is that this is Warren Jeffs doing this. This is not necessarily other members of the FLDS, even though they do regard him as the prophet.
COOPER: And Mike, Warren Jeffs on the tape doesn't use the word "sex" at all. He has all these sort of code words. What is he talking about? Are these all FLDS codes?
WATKISS: Having grown up in the area around Utah, yes, this ornate religious language that Mr. Jeffs seems to be unable to speak in anything but this stuff. And he talks about heavenly sessions. He refers to the young woman as a heavenly comfort wife. Yes, it's all this sort of coded language that has been used for generations in that community. Never just outright talks about sex, because they're above that.
This is -- this is a God-ordained practice in the -- at least in the words of Mr. Jeffs. You know, it's very bizarre to hear him discuss that. And the tape, to hear this meek little voice, you only hear it a couple of times. I mean, it just plunged a dagger into your heart. And I think, amid the heavy breathing, it just -- the jurors just walked away stunned.
COOPER: And Mike, I was really interested. I want to make sure I read this correctly. That Jeffs filed a motion to get the judge on the case dismissed or recused, and in it, it seems like he's threatening her. He claims in this brief that he's channeling God. And he said, quote, "Let also Barbara Walthers," the judge's name, "be of a humbling to know I have sent a crippling disease upon her which shall take her life soon."
WATKISS: Yes. I think that you get a good insight into the character of Warren Jeffs.
This judge has been rock solid. She has done such a good job in such a difficult situation. Apparently, as a child she suffered polio. She has a brace on one of her legs and walks with a noticeable limp. And he is now implying in this revelation from God that he filed as a motion in court that that -- that her infirmity was an act of his vengeful God. And now she's going to die.
I can tell you, she is arriving the last couple of days since this was filed with a much greater degree of security. She was driving herself to the court through much of this trial. Now she's being delivered in a big Texas-sized law enforcement pickup truck with lots of guards. They're taking this as a threat.
COOPER: Yes. And Gary, is this going to wrap up soon or do we know?
TUCHMAN: We thought it would wrap up today, Anderson. But she, Barbara Walther, as Mike was saying, is tough but she is not limiting Warren Jeffs. She doesn't want there to be a mistrial...
TUCHMAN: ... or a reversal on appeals court. So we don't know how long this will take. He talked three hours and 50 minutes to his witness, and it ended just an hour ago, court for the day. And continued questioning a fellow member of his church tomorrow.
COOPER: That's fascinating. Gary, Mike, appreciate the time. Thank you very much.
More "Crime & Punishment" ahead. New information about when Casey Anthony will have to return to Florida.
Also ahead tonight's "RidicuList." I hesitate to even name these two, because publicity is what they've always been about, but they have a big change in their lives, apparently. We'll explain on "The RidicuList."
COOPER: Just ahead, a belated reality check for Heidi Montag and Spencer Pratt -- I said their names -- landing them on tonight's "RidicuList." But first Tom Foreman is back with a "360 News & Business Bulletin" -- Tom.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Anderson.
U.S. authorities say they've broken up an online child pornography ring that stretched across five continents and 14 countries. More than 50 people have been arrested. They have been tied to an online site where they uploaded photos of children -- that's what they're accused of -- even infants being sexually abused.
Casey Anthony will not have to return to Orlando tomorrow. She was due to begin serving a supervised probation for a check fraud conviction. Her lawyers say it's too dangerous for her to come out of hiding. Anthony's acquittal last month on murder charges prompted death threats. A hearing is set for Friday.
The Dow Industrials snapped an eight-day losing, streak adding 30 pins. The S&P 500 and NASDAQ also rose. Word that the Fed may consider a new round of stimulus is given credit for the gains.
And Dolly Parton has apologized to a lesbian couple who visited Dollywood's Splash Country theme park in Tennessee. One of the women was wearing a T-shirt with a slogan promoting gay marriage. She wasn't allowed into the park until she turned her shirt inside out to hide the slogan -- Anderson.
COOPER: That's surprising.
All right. Tom, thanks very much.
Time now for "The RidicuList." And tonight we're adding Heidi Montag and Spencer Pratt. Probably shouldn't be for the first time, but I think it might be. If you don't know who they are, first of all, congratulations. Allow me to explain.
They were on a TV show called "The Hills" that was on for six seasons. It was season four before I realized it wasn't just a really long lip gloss commercial. So frankly, I'm no expert. But I do know that Heidi and Spencer were the demon spawn of that program. And together they staged a whole bunch of fake photo ops and went on reality shows and basically got paid to go to clubs.
Whatever the point is, they got really famous in that bloggy, Twittery, TMZ-esque way that people can get famous these days without any actual talent or any intrinsic worth.
But now, sadly, everything has changed. Sadly for them, Heidi and Spencer say they were wrong about everything. They regret it all, they say. And now they're broke and wish they never tried to get famous.
Spencer tells "The Daily Beast," quote, "Everything we were doing, in retrospect, was a mistake. The second we continued on our quest for fame was a mistake."
Bite your tongue, Spencer. You and Heidi are both excellent role models. We've learned so much from you. Like when you were on that reality show, "I'm a Celebrity. Get Me Out of Here," you taught us about perspective.
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HEIDI MONTAG, REALITY TV SHOW STAR: Everyone is just being so mean and completely took off all my labels and everything on my dry shampoo. And...
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COOPER: Who else would so passionately defend the sanctity of one's dry shampoo labels? No one but Heidi and Spencer.
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SPENCER PRATT, REALITY TV SHOW STAR: And you shouldn't rip the labels off of people's possessions.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Come on, Spencer.
PRATT: Don't be a hypocrite.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Calm down. You don't know who you're talking to.
MONTAG: My husband is a very new Christian, so he is working very hard on his temper and stuff. (END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Our civilization is ending.
As Spencer worked very hard on his temper and stuff, Heidi worked very hard on her temple and stuff, got some plastic surgery. But guess what? Now she thinks that was a mistake. Quote, "Obviously, I wish I didn't do it. I wouldn't go back and not -- I would go back and not have any surgery. I don't regret anything, but if I could go back I wouldn't do it."
She's being way too hard on herself, I think. All she did was try to improve her appearance just a little.
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MONTAG: I had a slight eyebrow lift. So they just slightly lifted it. And I had like real staples in my head. And I had my ears pinned back, because I couldn't wear my hair up ever for the red carpets because my ears always stuck out.
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COOPER: I hate that. A little head stapling, a little ear pinning. It's not like she got her whole jaw sawed down.
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MONTAG: I had my jaw sawed down and reshaped. I had my nose corrected. I had fat injections put into my cheeks and into my lips that was taken from my legs. I had a little bit of Botox put in my forehead.
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COOPER: How does one have one's jaw sawed down? Anyway, that was it, right? I mean -- oh, that wasn't it.
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MONTAG: I had my back shaved down a little bit. And...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's not bone movement, is it?
MONTAG: A little bit of bone, yes. A little bit of the bone and a little bit of the muscle and tissue, just for a curvier look. And then I had a little bit of fat injections put in both sides of each butt cheek.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Just a little bit of bone. Just a little bit of bone. At least when it came to her breast implants she used sound logic.
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MONTAG: They're triple D's or F's, pretty much. So I wanted "H" for Heidi, but that didn't really happen that way.
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COOPER: An "H" for Heidi. She's adorable!
So what's life like now for Heidi and Spencer? Oh, hang on.
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MONTAG: And then I had a little bit of inner and outer lipo.
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COOPER: Are we done? That's it?
All right. So what's life like now for Heidi and Spencer, now that they're full of regret about their fame-seeking ways? Quoth Spencer, "It's like what 70-year-olds do. We're reading a lot of books. Now all we eat are tacos and burritos."
I know that's how I have always envisioned retirement: sitting around, being 70, book in one hand, taco in the other, burrito in the other. But Spencer, you and Heidi are way too young to give up on your dreams and drown your sorrows in ground beef and sour cream. Deep down, I think you know it.
Heidi's on another reality show right now. And Spencer says, quote, "If they called me right now and said, 'We want you to be on 'Jersey Shore' and be a bully and we'll bring you your paycheck back, I'd say, 'Get me on a plane to Italy'."
It's almost like they're contradicting themselves, but I know that can't be. I mean, they've always been so genuine.
Anyway, chin up, Spencer. Heidi, lift yours up as much as you're physically able to. Because you'll always be rich and famous on "The RidicuList."
We'll be right back.