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Warren Jeffs Found Guilty; Cycle of Abuse
Aired August 4, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
We have breaking news. Warren Jeffs guilty of sexual assault. He is going to prison for what he did to children. But I want to know what, if anything, will change for the innocent women and children of the FLDS.
Plus -- Casey, you don`t have to hide. Why are you the stealth celebrity?
And Sugar Daddy U: rich men, poor college women hooking up.
We`ve got to figure this out.
This FLDS case has really been so troubling. Whatever you think about the guilty verdict, we must ask ourselves, what is next for the women, for the children, and even the way the law looks at the FLDS?
The trial of Warren Jeffs has opened our eyes, I hope, to many things. Now that we`re aware of what`s going on in our own country, that is including girls being forced to have sex in the name of religion, of course at the mercy of much older men, sheltered from the outside world, when they really don`t know there is an outside world, we can`t just close our eyes and pretend this doesn`t exist any longer. It does, and the jury has dealt with it.
We have to deal with it now.
There is a verdict in the sickening Warren Jeffs trial. The infamous polygamous leader who calls himself a God and the prophet was found guilty on both counts of raping a 12-year-old girl and sexually assaulting a 14- year-old.
The jury deliberated for just three hours before coming back with a guilty verdict.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GREG ABBOTT, TEXAS ATTORNEY GENERAL: We were not surprised by the swiftness of the jury`s verdict. We believe the evidence against Warren Jeffs was so strong, so powerful, the jury was so convinced, if not repulsed, by what he did to a 12 and 14-or-15-year-old child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Finally justice for these girls whose childhood, innocence was simply stolen. But will the sick behavior continue behind the secret walls of the FLDS? This what has been cult has been marrying young girls off to old men possibly for decades.
Now, I know many of you can`t relate to these people and what`s going on there, but think of it this way. Would we ignore this if they were, say, registered sex offenders raping young children in our neighborhoods? I mean, just think of that. Imagine if it was your daughters or your neighbor`s daughters or other people in your community -- again, in your country. Could you stand by and just let this happen?
Now, young women who lived this and risked their lives to escape, how can we make sure this behavior ends?
Former FLDS member Flora Jessop joins us by phone. Also former FLDS member Elissa Wall. She also joins us. Prosecutor Stacey Honowitz is here.
But first, off to Christi Paul, anchor for "In Session" on truTV.
Christi, what is the latest?
CHRISTI PAUL, ANCHOR, "IN SESSION": Well, the latest is we`re in the middle of a penalty phase. So we`re waiting to see exactly how long he`ll go to jail. He faces 99 years on that aggravated sexual assault count of the 12-year-old, up to 20 years in the case of the 14-year-old.
He had no expression when they announced his guilty verdicts. And that`s pretty interesting when you think about the fact that this man went from prophet to rapist in a matter of about five seconds as they read those verdicts off of guilty.
But right now we`re just waiting to see exactly how long they`re going to put him away for. We understand there`s a lot of aggravating evidence that they`re going to bring into this penalty phase.
So we`re going to see things in this penalty phase, Dr. Drew, that we have never seen in a courtroom before referring to Warren Jeffs and the things that he is now convicted of doing to young girls.
PINSKY: Well, now, Christi, you`ve tantalized us a bit. What are you talking about? What kind of evidence are we going to see here?
And of course I know the judge is ill because he put a pox on him. So the poor judge is ill in his seat there.
But what kind of stuff are we going to be talking about here?
PAUL: Well, I think the judge is doing just fine. Judge Walther seems to be hanging in there.
We don`t know exactly what they`re going to be presenting as evidence in this part of the trial. But we do understand that there will be some people who will be taking the stand.
One of those people may be Rebecca Musser (ph). She was a wife of Warren Jeffs` father, Rulon Jeffs. And she was a critical witness to testimony in this trial itself because she was able to identify him as the voice on those audio recordings, where he was allegedly sexually assaulting the 12-year-old. And she also was able to talk about why he documented everything.
One of the questions people ask is, you`re doing this to a 12-year- old. Why would you audiotape it? Why would you record all of these day- to-day activities?
And she was the one that was able to get on the stand and say because he was the prophet, that was his duty. His daily recordings needed to be documented -- his daily activities. So she`s been a big witness in the trial and most likely will be in the penalty phase as well.
PINSKY: Just so unsettling.
The jury at one point asked for a CD player to listen to an audio recording that had been presented in court. The prosecution`s key piece of evidence was the audio recording that prosecutors say is the 55-year-old having sex with a 12-year-old girl.
Christi, do we know if that tape was the tape they wanted to hear again?
PAUL: I haven`t heard that, but we`re assuming it was. And I say that because that particular tape was much more difficult to decipher.
It wasn`t as clear on that tape as the first tape was, that first audio recording, when he had 12 women, 12 of his ladies, come in for what he called a training session, or a heavenly session, where it sounded as though there was group sex. And he was training them on how to please him.
PINSKY: Elissa Wall, you have escaped from the FLDS compound. I know you saw some awful things you`ve shared with us.
Was this known to be the practice of what the so-called prophet did, where he`d bring in other women to enlist their help in the abuse of young girls?
ELISSA WALL, AUTHOR, "STOLEN INNOCENCE": Warren Jeffs, I think more than anything, has created an environment in which he could get away with anything, because he was the mouthpiece of God within this community. And really whatever he did say was the word of God.
It put him in a place to where even though I wasn`t expecting that, or I wasn`t exposed to that, the extreme behavior got worse and worse with his control. And he created a system to which he could get away with this and the women and the people wouldn`t argue.
PINSKY: Absolute power.
Flora, I want to ask you, now that the head of the fish is gone, so to speak, is there an opportunity here to get the munchkins to come out now that the wicked witch is dead? Is there a chance here to sort of encourage people who may be contemplating leaving to come on out into the light?
FLORA JESSOP, FMR. FLDS MEMBER: You know, whether there`s -- I think there`s an opportunity. And so I`m on my way back to Arizona now. I`ve been in San Angelo, but I`m on my way back to Arizona now because I need to be close.
And interestingly enough, we`re already receiving requests for help to get people out. So it`s imperative that I get back there and continue the work that I`ve been doing for 20 years, and make sure that anybody and anyone who needs help gets help.
PINSKY: Now, Flora, I`ve been talking to you for a couple of days. You seem to have a different affect today. You seem pretty happy about this, I imagine, and inspired maybe to exploit maybe this opportunity to help people.
JESSOP: Yes. I would take any opportunity to help people.
I`m ecstatic about this conviction. I think it`s fantastic. My hat is off to Texas.
I can`t tell you how pleased I am with the prosecutor and the judge for having the patience that she did with this man in court, because he tried the patience of everybody in that courtroom at times. And I`m just hopeful that if there`s women and children in there that want to get out, that they have the ability.
Take the opportunity and give us a call. And I would move heaven and earth to make sure they are protected.
PINSKY: Stacey, I want to go out to you. What is next? Is the legal system still going to ramp up and look at some of the other members of this organization, or is it up to law enforcement to infiltrate? Or is it social services?
You know, we`ve really focused on this case. I hope women everywhere feel a kinship with the disempowerment and the opportunity here to empower a group.
What do we need to do to make sure that happens?
STACEY HONOWITZ, PROSECUTOR: Well, the important thing is that you can`t let this story die. I mean, just because we have this one trial, it`s going on and the cycle is perpetuating.
I mean, he`s no different than any sexual predator who`s out there in the neighborhood except he lives in a compound. It`s a haven for pedophilia hidden behind religion.
So his grooming techniques, his mind control, everything, the feelers that he had over these children and these wives are no different -- his behavior is no different than any other sexual predator thinking that he is God and thinking that he can control everybody, and having sex with children is OK. The main thing is that the story cannot go away.
Law enforcement, social services, the prosecutors office, everybody has to be aware that it`s still going to go on unless and until people infiltrate, go in, figure out a way to get these kids to talk, because it is empowering to see this happen. And maybe there are a lot of women now - - as Flora said, she`s gotten some phone calls -- that are realizing he`s not God, he`s a pedophile. That`s what he is.
He`s a rapist. And we need to get our kids and get away.
And I don`t even think that keeping the women out -- I think we should be prosecuting the mothers that are offering up their children. A lot of them know that it`s wrong. That`s why some of them have escaped.
So I think this is a lesson. This is the first step in breaking up this cult, in breaking up this haven of pedophilia and getting these kids out. But everybody`s got to stay on top of it and stay on board.
PINSKY: I agree. I think the answer is everybody. And thank you, Stacey.
Flora and Elissa, stay with me.
Inside the twisted cycle of abuse. I have a special guest. Mackenzie Phillips is here to share her story and to share with us how deeply she identifies with the terror and despair that sexual victims go through.
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSOP: If you understand Warren Jeffs and the narcissistic personality type that he is, he believes, I think, that he is the only one, through the guidance of God, is going to convince all of us that he is -- should be left alone to rape children, that it`s a sacred right that he holds.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
Tonight, Warren Jeffs guilty on two counts of having sex with children.
Tonight, victims react to the verdict. Plus, the feelings of victimization that we`ve been hearing about from former female FLDS members. It`s relatable to anyone who has been a victim of abuse.
Mackenzie Phillips texted me yesterday and told me how much she related. She was sexually assaulted by her dad. She had a closed family system that made her feel like she was the problem.
And when you stepped outside of it, it attacked.
MACKENZIE PHILLIPS, ACTRESS: It absolutely attacked.
And I just want to say, I was watching last night, and I was so moved. And I was moved to the point where I was, like, I`ve got to let Drew know that your message is getting across. Flora`s message is getting across. And it`s so important.
PINSKY: Let`s take a step back. I know the hair goes up on the back of your neck when you think about this stuff, because what`s going on in the FLDS is sort of a model of what happens to victims and families all over this country. So let`s broaden this topic out a little bit.
And Elissa and Flora, I hope you don`t mind this, because it`s important. And both of you I know are interested in helping people and victims out there.
What should women who may have been abused or be victims, what can they learn from this story?
PHILLIPS: Wow. Well, I mean, what I`ve learned from this story is that we are all equal. There is -- I mean, I said to you last night, whether it be a rock star or a supposed prophet --
PINSKY: Prophet. Or just a dad who`s the head of the family using coercive power to victimize a female.
PINSKY: And by the way, let`s not leave the boys out, too. They get victimized, too.
PHILLIPS: That`s right. I think what we`ve learned is that no one should be able to have that kind of power over us, and that we need to speak out and try and change things, and do prevention. I mean, I think the best way to deal with child sexual abuse is some sort of prevention instead of trying to put a Band-Aid on the problem when something like this happens.
PINSKY: Let me -- sometimes it`s important to talk about it.
And Elissa, I`m going out to you out there, too.
It`s important to talk about the feelings of having been a victim as a common place for people who might be going through this to sort of understand one another. Are there things you can tell people about where you were and where you are now that might inspire people to speak up? I know Mackenzie, her having spoken up about her issues inspired a lot of other people to sort of empower themselves.
What can you tell people about your experience?
WALL: Really what people don`t understand is, especially from where we came from, Flora and I, coming from the FLDS, I didn`t realize that I had been victimized. I didn`t realize that what happened to me was wrong until I was told that by a police officer who looked me in the eye and said, "Do you realize what happened was wrong?"
And I think that`s what people don`t understand, is these women, these children, these people do not realize that what is occurring to them is wrong. And the abuse their perpetuating is wrong.
And really, what can be done is this is about Warren Jeffs. This trial and the drama surrounding this is about the FLDS, but really, this is an undertone for all women, for humanity as a whole, that we have to step up and no longer allow this to occur. Under any circumstances we cannot allow this. It`s almost as though this consciousness of abuse as a whole.
It`s raising. And it`s time for us to raise with that, and raise our standards.
PINSKY: Elissa, I agree with you.
And Mac, if I could put a little point on that point, focus on that point, which is, as you as a victim -- and people have trouble getting their head around this part of your story -- actually felt like you were consenting, you were a part of it.
PHILLIPS: That`s right.
PINSKY: And people can`t understand how that could possibly be. But as these people point out, they come in, the women come in, and participate in the sexual abuse of a child. They think they`re part of something that they`re consenting to.
PHILLIPS: It`s very shocking. And for me, Drew, coming out with my story and believing that I had consented, that was -- and I was taught by you and by survivors, sexual abuse survivors all over the world, that I had been groomed. I had been looked upon as weak, and by someone who was very strong and very charismatic. And I was groomed to participate.
PINSKY: That`s a great way to say it, groomed to participate.
PHILLIPS: I was groomed to participate.
PINSKY: That`s exactly what`s going on.
Now, a lot of you wonder how the mothers in this church can allow this to happen. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAM BROWER, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: I consider the adult women just as complicit in the child abuse as the men. But at one time they were also victims. And they`ve crossed that line from being a victim to a perpetrator.
And that`s a dangerous thing. They`ve been solicited almost to become part of this criminal organization.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And so, Flora, I`ll ask you, how do we break the cycle of abuse? What do you think we should be doing other than encouraging people to come out and recognize that they are part of an abusive system?
JESSOP: You know, Dr. Drew, the one thing in the years that I`ve worked with abuse victims and that I myself had to overcome and figure out was, when you`re a victim of abuse, the first and the hardest thing that you need to do is forgive yourself for being a victim. When you can forgive yourself, you can heal.
PINSKY: Flora, I`m going to interrupt you. That is a wonderful point to make. Mackenzie had a very strong reaction to it.
I`m going to ask you to go ahead and react.
PHILLIPS: That`s so true. And it`s very hard when you feel as though you were complicit and you were told by someone you believed --
PINSKY: To be the prophet.
PHILLIPS: -- to be the profit, you know --
PHILLIPS: -- that you were complicit. And what I`ve learned since I`ve come out with my story is that I wasn`t complicit. And I was manipulated and I was abused. And I think that that`s really important for people to hear.
JESSOP: You know, I think when you tell victims that they have to forgive the perpetrator, you make the victims think they have to own the guilt. And that is not OK. They need to forgive themselves.
PINSKY: Well, thank you, ladies.
These are extremely important points to make. This is a problem that is pervasive in our time. And as we`ve said, it`s something that`s existed here amongst us in that community.
We have a ton of questions from you all about FLDS women and children. We`re going to get to them right after the break.
PINSKY: We have received thousands of comments, questions, and thoughts on everything surrounding Warren Jeffs` trial and the FLDS. Most of you are still trying to make sense out of how some of these horrific acts being reported are going on right here amongst us.
Let`s get to the phones.
Tina in New York, you are up first. Go ahead, Tina.
TINA, NEW YORK: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Tina.
TINA: You know, I`m just watching this Warren Jeffs case as a viewer at home, and I think the real question is, is where does religious freedom end and the protection of children begin? So people, we really need to draw a line, mark a limit that can`t be crossed.
PINSKY: Tina, I completely agree with you. But let`s be clear. This is far more than anything about religious freedom.
He is cloaking this in an issue of religious freedom and persecution. But the fact is, it`s about rape, it`s about people who don`t behave -- who don`t abide by the law. And the fact is, regardless of any religious orientation, the law must be obeyed. And that`s what this is about.
And the question is, how do we allow this all to go on amongst us for so long without something getting done? Finally, something is being done.
On Facebook, Vicki writes, "I can`t blame the women in the sect for anything at all because they don`t know any better."
And boy, that is one of the big points of this. What we`ve learned about this organization is young women are indoctrinated from cradle to grave, and sometimes the victims become participants in the perpetration later.
It is terribly sad. And the issue is that women seem to be at the core of this story and nobody seems to want to come in and help. The cycle of abuse goes on.
Joe writes, "The best way to help the FLDS is cut their benefits. If they don`t want to pay taxes and want to rape young girls, they do not qualify for any assistance. They are committing gross fraud."
And, boy, that is a good point, that there may be a whole other layer to this story where public assistance, your tax dollars are supporting an organization that is engaged in this kind of behavior. How is that OK?
How are we allowing that? And why hasn`t that been scrutinized more?
Jen writes, "You made a good point last night. How in the world is this happening in the United States, kids being raped, authorities taking forever to do something about this `community?`"
Agreed, my dear. I`ve got to say, again, I`m concerned.
And when I said this last night, what you`re quoting there, I was concerned that the big problem here is that women seem to be the primary victims. And when they appeal to the authorities in their states, who are primarily men, this seems to get a low priority. And that, to me, is reprehensible.
Heather writes, "Is it true that children rarely talk about sexual abuse? I`m just thinking about the kids who will eventually leave the sect -- not telling people what happened to them."
And these days, kids do tend to report it. The problem is that when they`re being coerced, they are told that something horrible will happen to them or their family if they do say something.
In this case, we heard that kids are being manipulated by a threat of going to hell if they don`t participate in these activities. And it`s mostly the coercion that keeps kids silent or the belief that it`s something sort of normal that happens to everybody.
When we come back, lawyers for Casey Anthony are in court tomorrow. We`ve got a preview.
And later, how far would you be willing to go to pay off your student loans? This story really disturbs me. It is a bit creepy. But we`re going to get into it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Orlando, the one place we know Casey Anthony won`t be this week. Is America`s most notorious mom hiding in Ohio? Was it really her in those photos? If so, were they staged? Will the judge order Casey to return to Florida
And later, sugar babies and sugar daddies. I am not talking about the candy. This is internet arm candy, a dating service for sexy coeds and successful men. Owners say it`s (INAUDIBLE), but is it prostitution under the table? I`m asking the CEO and one of the young women.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): Will Casey Anthony be forced to serve one year probation in Florida? That continues to be the question tonight as we count down to an emergency hearing set for 9:00 a.m. tomorrow morning in Orlando. Judge Belvin Perry is back in the spotlight as he will hear from Casey`s attorney as to why he should dismiss another judge`s order to have Casey return to Orlando for probation.
But first, what everyone wants to know seemingly, at least, was that Casey Anthony in Ohio in those pictures and videos? Our friend Mark Geragos did not think so. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t think that that`s her at all.
PINSKY: Oh, no kidding?
GERAGOS: If I did know, I wouldn`t say where she is, but I doubt that most of these reports are accurate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Mark seemed to know something. He`s been in touch with Baez, and we don`t know everything he knows, of course, but, all right, Mark. Granted. that may not have been her. But then, where is she? Where is Casey? Joining me is senior producer from "In Session," Michael Christian, as well as Florida State prosecutor, Stacey Honowitz. Now, before we get in to the where is Waldo, Michael, let me start with you, what is the latest?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, SR. PRODUCER, "IN SESSION" ON TRUTV: Well, in roughly 12 hours, as you say, Dr. Drew, we`ll be having a hearing here in Orlando, and that hearing will be on the defense`s emergency motion to quash Judge Stan Strickland`s order saying that Casey has to return for probation. Now, as you recall, it`s been a heck of a week. On Monday, out of the blue, Judge Stan Strickland issued this order saying that Casey Anthony had to return to Orlando to fulfill a year of probation.
He says he always intended that. This relates to a check -- cashing fraud, a check fraud, before she ever went on trial for murder. The defense immediately said no, no, no she has served that probation. She did it while she was in jail. You can do that while you`re in Florida. She has a letter saying you`ve done this from the probation department. They immediately filed this emergency motion.
In the meantime, Judge Strickland went off a vacation, eventually, recused himself from the case. Meaning, he`s removed. So, it`s now back in the hands of Judge Belvin Perry who handled Casey Anthony`s murder trial, and the hearing will be at nine o`clock Friday morning when Judge Perry will hear from the defense why he should throw out this motion, this entirely motion, and why she should not have to report for probation at all.
PINSKY: I had attorneys in here yesterday who were saying that she will definitely not have to return for probation, and that judge should have recused himself, but we`ll see. Take a look at Nancy Grace`s producer, Ellie Jostad, who talked to Casey`s relatives in Ohio. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELLIE JOSTAD, PRODUCER NANCY GRACE SHOW: We tracked down a couple of relatives there in Ohio. Even people that had been speculated on the internet that she would be staying with because they own businesses in Ohio, the relatives we talked to said no. She`s not staying with us. Her uncle said, in fact, that he hasn`t talked to her, hasn`t seen her since Thanksgiving 2007, and he said she wouldn`t be welcome at my home. So, so far, no relatives admitting that they are putting Casey up at their house.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. Michael, I`ve actually spoken myself to some of those family members in the last few weeks. Is this -- are these folks in Ohio lying to the media?
CHRISTIAN: You know, you have to remember that she`s obviously estranged from her parents. So, she is estranged from her immediate family. What we just don`t know is how far that estrangement expands. Is she estranged from aunts, from uncles, from cousins? We just don`t know. Now, if I had a celebrity who is trying to hide staying with me, I probably wouldn`t tell people that she was there.
But on the other hand, if there is animosity, if these people have taken George and Cindy Anthony`s side against Casey, they probably don`t want her in their homes. So, at this point, again, we just don`t know.
PINSKY: That`s exactly the point, Michael. The folks I have spoken to seem very interested in George and Cindy`s point of view and a little bit upset with what Casey had done. Maybe a lot upset, some of them. Now, a facial recognition expert told "In Session" that he thinks the photos are of Casey. Watch this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believe it looks like her for two purposes, you know, for two reasons, the visual effect and the algorithms doing a weighted score measurement. So, visually, when we use that window shading effect and you line up the 3Ds and get the poses lined up, we see that the eyebrows and the chin, the nose, they line up very close. And that`s the - - kind of the visual analysis.
But then, we also run the algorithms, the face through the algorithms, and it`s a statistical comparison. And the statistical comparison came up with a weighted score over 80 percentile. So, we think it`s her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. Stacey, off to you. Geragos says no. Computers say yes. What is your take?
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Well, it`s a motion for clarification, because that`s what you really need. You have another judge now stepping in trying to interpret what happened at that original hearing. There was an oral pronouncement made on the record, and this judge was very specific. If you watch the tape and it`s been shown several times, he has said that the probation is to start upon the release of incarceration which makes perfect sense, because for people that don`t know, probation is to supervise and to monitor somebody`s behavior.
If she`s sitting in solitary confinement for 23 hours a day, we know she`s not doing anything bad, and she`s not going to get in trouble, and the conditions of probation, she really did not fulfill the standard ones. What we need to see tomorrow is, how far did probation go? Did they only visit her one time? Did they go several times? Did she do anything that she needed to do on probation?
And all of these things will have to be determined. They will have somebody there from the Department of Corrections. They will have the transcript -- that`s why you have a court reporter there to read back exactly what was said on the record. So, everyone`s in that posture waiting to see how this judge is going to interpret what this other judge said.
PINSKY: There`s sort of even another layer to this, too, which I was just thinking about as I was talking to you, which is that, there`s a pattern of behavior here and part of probation is to sort of prevent people from falling out of line again, let`s say. I mean, if the Dugard case didn`t teach us that, I don`t know what it taught us. And then, we don`t do enough of that kind of thing. Is this a situation where if we get her out of probation, we`re going to see more problematic behavior than if she were in probation?
HONOWITZ: Well, certainly, probation is the noose, you know, for lack of a better term, around your neck while you`re out after you`ve committed a crime. And that means that you have to -- plenty of people do violate their probation, but plenty of people successfully complete it, because they realize they are being monitored, and that they have to report, and that their every move is going to be watched. And if they use drugs, if they commit another crime, it will be hold (ph) back into jail.
So, some people do very well on probation and succeed. But, certainly, I think this judge would have stated like most judges do, if he wanted the probation to run concurrent with the incarceration, he would have specifically said that on the record. When you go into court, if you get a split sentence, usually, the judge, the judge in this case, will tell you it`s to follow upon release or to run concurrent while you`re incarcerated.
And I think we could tell by looking at what this judge said, he was very specific. He talked about if she was convicted and then he talked about if she was acquitted. And I think that`s a clear showing that he wanted it to start after she got out of jail. To monitor her behavior so she doesn`t screw up again. And so, this is all going to argued in court tomorrow. The defense is going to argue double jeopardy.
She`s done it. There`s the letter from the Department of Corrections. And I`m assuming that the state is going to argue, she has not fulfilled the obligations. It certainly was a misprint. There`s an oral pronouncement, and it`s on the record. It`ll be a very interesting argument.
PINSKY: I think you just want to bum Casey`s high again. I just think, you know, just want to spoil her good time. I don`t know.
HONOWITZ: Just me. I`m the only one that wants to spoil her --
PINSKY: That`s right.
HONOWITZ: That`s right.
PINSKY: Now, next, we`re going to talk about something we`re calling sugar daddy university. It is wild. Some girls are getting older men to pay for higher education. You got to hear this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My girlfriend said hey, I have a sugar daddy. I found him on SeekingArrangement.com. Why don`t you look at the site and see if you find something that works for you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I met an individual who lives in Florida. I guess, we have like an allowance works out. Every day that I see him, like, we go out, we have fun, we do stuff, you know, go to dinner, whatever. He gives me essentially $1,000 a day.
PINSKY: Some call it internet dating for a price. Attractive college women posting profiles online searching for a sugar daddy to pay off their debt, and apparently, no one holds back. Everyone is clear on their expectation. It is in your face and you tell each other exactly what you want. Now, I`m going to ask the question. How is this not like prostitution?
So, let`s bring in our guests to address this. Brandon Wade, CEO of a SeekingArrangement.com, as well as one of these, let`s call them sugar babies, Nicole, of course, not her real name, seeing her there in silhouette, and Amanda Fairbanks, she is the "Huffington Post" reporter who wrote about this school for scandal, and Stacey Honowitz is with us as well, Florida prosecutor.
Amanda, I want to start with you. You, apparently, spent quite a bit of time with these girls. I`ve spoken to you a bit. You told me this is not something you would ever contemplate doing. Surprise. Did you appeal to them sort of woman to woman and ask, you know, once you built a report with them and what did they say about their choice to do this?
AMANDA FAIRBANKS, REPORTER, THE HUFFINGTON POST: You know, I guess, we did develop a report. I spent about a month with a dozen women here in New York City sort of talking to them, talking about their motivations and what led them to this work. I mean, it really seems to me to be the face of true desperation.
You know, they`re graduating from college with a lot of debt in this terrible economy. And, you know, their kind of regular-paying job isn`t enough to pay these bills and pay off these debt.
PINSKY: Well, Amanda, you said something really interesting. You said this kind of work as though this is work. So, I`m going to ask you the same question I asked at the opening. How is this not sex for money?
FAIRBANKS: Well, it absolutely is sex for money. I mean, these websites get to exist in this kind of legal murky gray area whereby sex isn`t specifically exchanged for money on these websites. But, of course, you know, little reporting, a little bit of digging reveals that sex absolutely is exchanged for money.
The one caveat, though, is that often (ph) company`s, you know, companionship and time spent together and go into the theater and having dinner, and then, it gets far trickier in terms of prosecuting
PINSKY: That`s interesting. And we have one of these, as I said, sugar babies. It`s Nicole. Nicole, how did you get started? How did you find out about this? What were you hoping to accomplish?
"NICOLE," MEMBER, SEEKINGARRANGEMENT.COM: Well, a girlfriend told me about the site. She had used it to help pay for books when she was in school. And she knew that I had bills to pay and I actually prefer to date older men. So, she thought this would be an excellent way for me to kill two birds with one stone.
PINSKY: But again, I can`t -- hold on a second. I can`t sort of take this at face value. You must have considered other ways to pay your debts or you might have just gone out and dated older men. I don`t understand this. Help me get my head around it. I mean, let`s put it this way. If you were my daughter, I would not be happy. You`re, obviously, having to shroud your identity. Help me understand what you`re up to.
"NICOLE": Sure. There`s a particular reason why I shroud my identity. I understand that it`s a controversial topic, so I don`t need any negative attention in my home neighborhood, you know? I`m young. So, I`d like to have my life ahead of me and not have to think about, you know, how other people`s opinions will affect me. But why I chose this particular venue? Obviously, I can pay my bills other ways and I do.
I have a real job. I`m a real person with a real life, and I do pay my debts with my own money, but it would just take a lot longer, and I can pay all my bills by myself. I`m entirely self-sufficient, but, that doesn`t mean I don`t cushion (ph) for fun.
PINSKY: All right. I understand. Did you think about stripping which is the old -- back in the day, I`ve heard this story a million times where women go, oh, I`m just doing this because I got to pay for college. Stripping used to be the old-fashioned way of doing it. Did you ever think about that?
"NICOLE": No, I don`t see myself as an adult worker. I don`t see myself as a --
PINSKY: OK. All right. Fair enough. Fair enough. That`s my question. Brandon is the president of this company. You developed this entire site.
BRANDON WADE, CEO, SEEKINGARRANGEMENT.COM: Yes.
PINSKY: So, what were you thinking? What were you up to? Did you expect it to go this direction? Tell me about it.
WADE: Well, I certainly don`t expect it to go in the direction of where the media is taking it. SeekingArrangement.com is a website about forming brutally honest relationships. I started the website because I was having trouble dating women on match.com. I would write -- spend hours writing hundreds of e-mails waiting to get response. I would get very few. And then, to turn those into first dates was really, really tough.
Then, one of those things that my mom told me when I was growing up, I didn`t really actually have a girlfriend until I turned 19 at M.I.T., she said, well, study hard. Focus on getting As in school, and when you`re finally successful and have money, the girls will be waiting in line. That`s really what SeekingArrangement is all about. It`s to meet and date beautiful girls.
PINSKY: For you, Brandon, to date beautiful girls that`s what this is all about.
WADE: Guys like myself who have six figure incomes. You know, it`s important to note that, unlike sugar daddies, the term that people are used to, the sugar daddies on SeekingArrangement.com average about 35 years old. These are younger guys who are successful, who is willing to help.
We`re not talking about an exchange of money for sex here. That would be prostitution. We`re talking about money in exchange within a relationship. That`s OK. Dating a wealthy guy is not wrong.
PINSKY: I understand what you`re saying, but should you maybe vent these women more so their motivation is screened out? It seems like they see it as just the way to pay their bills. And if that`s their motivation, maybe these guys are getting sucked into a -- I`m giving them the benefit of the doubt, by the way, sucked into relationship that is improper?
WADE: We cannot vet people for being honest. That`s the -- you can`t go to match.com and find a profile where somebody is saying, I`m in debt. I need help. I want the following things. You know, I`m in trouble or I`m looking for a man who`s going to treat me with respect.
PINSKY: All right. All right. Let me go to Stacey Honowitz. Stacey, you`re still out there. I know you deal with population that has been victimized. You know, my concern here is that it attracts that population, it`s exploitative, and in certainty that feel (ph). How do we understand what`s going on here?
HONOWITZ: Well, I think you touched on it before when you said, you know, in my day, the oldest trick in the book was to be stripping. You know, we see these girls that say that they`re desperate and they`re (INAUDIBLE). This is the only means of getting what they want. I think it`s a sad note, on the other end, that a person thinks that the only way he`s going to get somebody to like them is to shower them in gifts.
And we always see these cases where you see gorgeous, beautiful women, and one girl might say to the other boy, look at the guy she`s with. You know why she`s with him, it`s because he`s paying for everything. So, this goes back a long way. Just now, what we have is we have it concentrated on a website. Is it a form of prostitution like you said? If there`s an exchange for money in exchange for sex, under the law, technically, it is prostitution.
And I don`t know if the CEO knows what goes on in every situation. He can`t possibly know that anybody that`s attached to that website is just going on dates and not getting money and not having sex. But you`re never going to be able to monitor these things. It does become exploitive. I think that it`s glamorized out there, that escort services. We see these girls that are in escort services, that are with high-powered individuals.
They then become famous afterwards when they come out. And they talk about prostitution and sex. So, I think it`s a mixture of things. I think it`s hard for people to imagine that it goes on, and it does. It`s exploitive. It is, but it`s going to continue, and prosecutors and offices like mine don`t delve into this because there`s too many of them.
PINSKY: All right. Well, let me just say, again, the reason for doing stories like this is to bring us, those of us that are parents, to begin thinking about these things. These are other things we need to be aware about other aspects of the internet. There are somewhat dangerous, perhaps. You know, I`d certainly think so.
I would, again, not be happy if my daughter were doing this. But mostly, what it would say about her access to real intimacy and relationships would be deeply disturbing to me if this is how she thought of a relationship with a man. We`re going to talk more about this.
Next, how far will some girls go to pay for college? Is this just another version, as Stacey said, of prostitution? We`ll continue the discussion after the break.
PINSKY: All right. Check this out. How many universities are attended by these so-called sugar babies who are seeking arrangement.com setups? Well, New York University, NYU, tops the list with 498 sugar babies. There you see a list of some of the other schools that has quite a few there. These are pricey places, I understand that, but as a father, it makes me very, very concerned.
Young women seeking men in an exploitative arrangement to pay off their debt. At least, that`s what some of these women think they`re doing. I don`t know the CEO. Brandon says no. That it`s not what the men are intending. Dating at a high price, high stakes involve here. Young lives, their self-respect, perhaps, may line the balance. I am disturbed hearing about this. Yes, indeed, I am.
Back with us, Brandon Wade. He`s the CEO of SeekingArrangement.com and one of the sugar babies, "Nicole" -- calling her "Nicole," also, Amanda Fairbanks from the "Huffington Post," and Stacey Honowitz, Florida prosecutor. Amanda, I`m going back to you. This is -- you know, I understand this is kind of a new story. Are we getting our head around this properly?
FAIRBANKS: You know, I think we are. I also think that, you know, some of these young women are really seeing these men as, you know, potential mentors or people to have sort of an ongoing relationship with. I mean, some of the women have sex with these guys just one night. And some of the women that I interviewed have sort of ongoing relationships that, in some ways, resemble, you know, your kind of standard-issue romantic relationship.
They have dinner, they go see a show. You know, the other thing to note is that about 40 percent of the men on the site are married men. So, these are married men, you know, engaging in these relationships with these young women.
PINSKY: Are they honest about being married?
FAIRBANKS: A lot of them are. I mean, a lot of them ask the women to be very discreet about it. Right.
PINSKY: All right. So, listen, I understand that males with resources, Brandon, are attracted to women. That`s a historical evolutionary phenomenon. But the where this is going is sort of disturbing. And what the women think this is is problematic it seems like.
WADE: Well, I think, we seem to be focusing on the few examples here of exploitation, but, what about the successful relationships that --
PINSKY: I`m going to ask that. You know, how is it different than somebody -- looking at somebody across a bar and , oh, I`m attracted to that guy? I understand that`s your point. But I want to go to Nicole who is our sugar baby. And Nicole, you don`t see it that way. You really thought this was a way to pay debt. It was a financial arrangement. And that`s what is disturbing us, right?
"NICOLE": This is where I disagree with you. I think that finances - - financial support is a benefit. It`s not the goal for me.
PINSKY: But let me ask you this. Do you have -- did you develop a -- hold on a second. Nicole, I got to interrupt you. Did you develop a close intimate connection with another human being? Was that the outcome?
"NICOLE": Yes. Absolutely.
PINSKY: OK. So, the financial issue was a side phenomenon that sort of got you into this site, it motivated you there, but you were able to have real relationships, close relationships?
"NICOLE": Of course. Absolutely.
"NICOLE": I think that is what separates this from prostitution. I make a distinction there.
PINSKY: Are you with one of these guys now?
"NICOLE": Yes. Yes.
PINSKY: Are you with -- OK. All right. Well, listen, my fear, honey, is that you did enter an exploitative kind of an exchange. If you did not, God bless you. I hope you find happiness with whoever the guy is you`re with. Thank you, Brandon, Stacey. Thanks for sticking around. Amanda, I will keep an eye on this story with you.
Thanks for watching. I will see you next time.