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Casey`s Probation Up in the Air; Who Killed Celina Cass?

Aired August 5, 2011 - 19:00:00   ET



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, chaos and confusion reign in Casey Anthony court, even as a judge admits the battle over Casey`s probation is a total unprecedented mess.

BELVIN PERRY, JUDGE: I just don`t know the answer.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Familiar faces from the criminal case duke it out again. We`ll bring you the very latest.

And breaking news in the suspicious disappearance and death of 11- year-old Celina Cass. Now her step-dad`s shady past is drawing attention. Investigators seize his pick-up truck, and he checks into a mental institution. What happened to Celina?

Plus, more pornographic horror stories about polygamist cult leader Warren Jeffs spill out as jurors decide his punishment for having sex with children. Tonight, escalating calls for more raids on America`s polygamist compounds.

ISSUES starts now.



STAN STRICKLAND, JUDGE: We sentence Ms. Anthony to time served, which again, is 412 days, followed by one year of supervised probation.

LIZABETH FRYER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s a vindictive sentence based on his disapproval of the jury`s finding.

PERRY: If anything could go wrong, it went wrong here.

CASEY ANTHONY, ACQUITTED OF MURDER: I take complete and full responsibility for my actions.

PERRY: I`ll be frank and honest. I don`t know what I`m going to do.

FRYER: This is done. This is over.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice for Caylee! Justice for Caylee! Justice for Caylee!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice for Caylee! Justice for Caylee! Justice for Caylee!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice for Caylee! Justice for Caylee! Justice for Caylee!

PERRY: I should spend some time with it. This is a mess.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Without a shadow of a doubt, she did it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`ll get her judgment some day.

PERRY: I don`t mean to be redundant, but this isn`t an easy case to decide.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, chaos and confusion in the Casey Anthony court. Kind of feels like old times, doesn`t it? Familiar faces from Casey`s murder trial battle it out again in front of the very same judge.

Good evening. I`m Jane Velez Mitchell, coming to you from New York City. The big question tonight: are bitter prosecutors trying to make Casey pay, even though they lost their murder case against her? The state`s very last weapon: to order Casey to Orlando to serve one year probation.

There`s only one problem: she already served it behind bars while waiting for her murder trial. Now nobody, including Judge Belvin Perry, can figure out what to do about it.


PERRY: This case is a little unusual in that she formally signed the document. They checked on her, and then they issued her a letter terminating probation. So far I haven`t found anything like that.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: No case like this. That`s what he said.

This whole mess goes back to Casey`s check fraud conviction. Casey`s original judge, Stan Strickland, gave her a year probation to start after she got out of jail. But his order was -- get this -- transcribed improperly on the written form.

Casey`s attorneys say Judge Stan Strickland is making a huge deal out of this now because he has a personal vendetta against Casey Anthony, having been forced to leave the case after the defense accused him of being biased.


FRYER: Your honor, I would argue that Judge Strickland`s participation in the media would suggest that this was a vindictive sentence based on his disapproval of the jury`s finding. She was given a sentence. The sentence was given terms. The terms were readily transparent. She completed those terms. This is done. This is over.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The irony: prosecutors probably overlooked the entire probation issue, because they were so convinced Casey would be convicted of murder and sent away forever, possibly even to death. I don`t think they bothered to pay attention to the probation issue. And now it has boomeranged on them.

Straight out to "In Session`s" Jean Casarez, who is in Orlando as we speak. Jean, dare we ask, what is the very latest?

JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, TRUTV`S "IN SESSION": The very latest is the judge was totally transparent. He said, "I don`t know what to do. And this is a mess." He said that there is nothing factually similar to this within the state of Florida in case law, so now he`s got to go to the rest of the United States to try to find a fact scenario legal case precedent that he can use.

But the fact is did she serve probation? Yes, kind of. Sort of. Administratively, she did. A probation officer went to jail, told her she had to stay away from the victim, but legally, that`s the issue. Because Judge Stan Strickland said orally that it was to be served after she was released. But it wasn`t transcribed into the written order correctly.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I agree with you that I think in court today the defense made a strong case that Casey Anthony has already done her probation behind bars. Let`s face it, they assigned her a probation...

CASAREZ: I don`t think anybody disagrees.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I mean, she had a probation officer. The probation officer visited her in jail. She warned Casey, "Do not write to your victim of check fraud," Casey Anthony`s former best friend, Amy Huizenga.

Remember, Amy Huizenga went on vacation and left Casey with her car, and Casey got a hold of her checks and wrote $644 worth of bad checks. And we saw a lot of that. She was shopping at Target and buying everything from beer to bras.

So Amy got a letter informing her that Casey had started her probation behind bars.

Now Jose Baez today questioned the probation supervisor about all this. Check this out.


JOSE BAEZ, LEAD ATTORNEY IN CASEY ANTHONY MURDER TRIAL: And what if Casey Anthony had sent her a letter apologizing or writing to her in any way? What would have occurred?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That would have been a violation of the terms of probation.

BAEZ: And a probation violation affidavit would have then been filed?


BAEZ: I have no further questions.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I`ve got to say, Mike Brooks, HLN law enforcement analyst, a lot of people are very upset with the fact that she was found not guilty of murder. But one thing has nothing to do with the other. If she did her probation, she did her probation.

MIKE BROOKS, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: But Frank George, one of the prosecutors we`re very familiar with from the case, Jane, asked the same supervisor, "What is the purpose of probation?" And he also says, "Well, isn`t it also a community-based program?"

So, OK, on paper she may have done probation, but did she really do probation? If it was that clear out, Judge Belvin Perry would have said, well -- he would have made a decision today. But he also said that Judge Strickland`s oral pronouncement was not followed. So he`s got a big decision here to make, and he`s going to make sure he gets it rights. And that`s why he`s taking his time doing it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Kitty in Louisiana, your question or thought, Kitty?

CALLER: Hey, look, she`s going to get off. You know she will. Because they want her back but now she`ll probably get killed. And guess what? She will probably do something bad and get back in jail. She`s a criminal like O.J. She will get back in jail. So let her go right now. She`ll hang her own throat later.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Kitty, I can tell that you feel strongly about this.

And Holly Hughes, I`ve got to go to you, because we both sat there and watched this hearing. And I was stunned, really, at the fact that the judge actually made some of the best points for forcing her to do this probation, if that`s what he decides to do. He said, "Look, the clerical error does not, in essence, vitiate the order itself. And I can`t simply ignore an order, simply because there was a mistake, there was a clerical error made. I do not have the authority to ignore that."

So if this clerical error gets fixed, and that means she`s got to serve it after, it may not matter that she served it before. She`s going to have to serve it after. Because he said that double jeopardy does not apply here. Explain, Holly.

HOLLY HUGHES, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The reason double jeopardy doesn`t apply here, Jane, is a case called Brown decided in the state of Florida. And essentially in Florida, even when you`re on probation, you are not considered under sentence, as we call it, which in just about every other state in the union, you are. That`s a sentence. The judge says you`re on probation. That`s what I sentence you to.

In Florida however, they are withholding adjudication until you complete that probationary period. So the judge says, according to this case, if you are not under a sentence, then you are not subjected to double jeopardy. She was in jail remember, waiting to come to trial on her murder charges. So that`s where he`s making that fine distinction.

And you`re 100 percent right. We were watching it together this morning and saying, you know, the state didn`t really come to the table with anything, but the judge seemed to sort of step up and fill that gap. He asked questions of the witness himself.


HUGHES: You know, he got on the phone with the probation officer, and he started questioning her and sort of making arguments for what we would normally think would be the state`s position, but the state kind of backed off, didn`t really go whole hog here. But Judge Perry did. He went in. He asked those questions. He cited case law. It was so clear that he had done a lot of homework already, but he wants to do more.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Holly, watching all this, it became clear to me that this case has gotten very personal for the parties involved. They are human beings, whether they`re judges like Judge Stan Strickland or the defense attorneys or the prosecutors. Everybody is personally invested. Their egos are invested.

Now, the defense gives us the most obvious examples of that. Defense attorney Cheney Mason, walking around, giving the middle-finger salute. Several times now, we have caught him on camera. And actually, we`ve got it here. This one, right after he filed the motion. Check this out. He files the motion. He calls the motion stupid.

The other one is when -- right after the verdict, he gives someone the middle finger. So that is an example of how personal. And then listen to Cheney actually uttering an expletive two days after the verdict. I saw him and heard him outside court.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have any bird fingers for the media today, Cheney?



VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. You can imagine what that word was. But this is the point. It`s not just the defense. Stacey Honowitz, I believe prosecutors also have their emotions invested. And frankly, watching this transpire today, it felt almost like sour grapes. Like they were so upset that they lost the murder case, let`s figure out what we can do to stick it to Casey Anthony.

STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Well, I mean, you can call it what you want. I`m sure they`re upset, and I`m sure they`re devastated with the fact that they lost, but I don`t know if I would go with it being sour grapes.

This was a judge`s order, a specific order saying upon release. And that`s what the big argument is about. And I found it -- I thought it was quite interesting that the defense attorney -- I`m sorry. I don`t remember her name -- Donovan (ph) said she was citing to the court about the canon of ethics, the judicial canon of ethics, which I think is a huge move. In other words, she was trying to tell Judge Perry, "Hey, Judge Strickland really has an issue, and we`re not going to listen to what he has to say, because he`s so biased in this case."


HONOWITZ: ... very interesting.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, he did talk to Nancy Grace. So when is the last time a judge went on television and commented on a case and then issued a ruling on it? We`re going to get to that in a moment. Hang in there, fantastic panel.

Meantime, 11-year-old Celina Cass` very mysterious disappearance. Her body has been found. And now, is her step-dad becoming the focus of the investigation, with his bizarre behavior and the confiscation of his vehicle?

Plus first, more on the Casey Anthony probation fiasco.


PERRY: One thing about this whole thing, it is quite evident that this is legal morass that, if anything could go wrong, it went wrong here.


PERRY: And...




STRICKLAND: If the state`s correct, there will be a conviction and a lengthy prison sentence or worse. If the defense is correct, there will be an acquittal, and she`ll walk free. There`s going to be a withhold followed by a year of supervised probation once released. Again, that`s at issue here.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t know if you caught that. That he said if she`s convicted or worse, if she`s acquitted and walked free.

So the defense is asking, was Judge Strickland unbiased, particularly after he appeared on various TV shows, including our own "Nancy Grace" after Casey was found not guilty of all the serious charges, including murder? And Judge Strickland explained why he recused himself from her check fraud case. Check this out.


STRICKLAND: When I saw that this was going to become something that would lead them to criticize every future decision that I made, you know, I don`t own this case. We`ve got 70 other good judges here in the court case. Let`s give it to somebody out.

So I got out. And I`m just kind of shocked at the result. And I really don`t know what to say beyond that.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The case he recused himself was the murder case. I`ve got two problems with that.

First of all, Jean Casarez, I have a problem with the judge commenting on the verdict and then coming back and handing down a ruling that says, "Hey, even though she did probation behind bars, no, no, no, you need to do it now after you got out." I know it may not be true, but it kind of sounds like he has an ax to grind.

CASAREZ: The defense attorney today, Lizabeth Fryer, made that argument about bias because of media appearances along with other things. Judge Belvin Perry said -- and it`s interesting; the devil is in the details. He said, "I agree with you on every aspect of that but one thing." The judge ordered probation following release before he did any of that.

But if you interpret that, the judge is agreeing with the defense as to alleged impropriety of what Judge Stan Strickland did.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Another big issue here is security. Because if they do force Casey to come back to Orlando and check in at the intake office of the probation department, she is going to need a lot of security. Just in case you`ve forgotten it, here`s a reminder of the protests outside court.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Boycott. No books, no magazine, nothing.

Boycott. No money for Casey.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her mother is a murderer.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now Mike Brooks, we`ve already heard about the hundreds of thousands of dollars, taxpayer dollars that been incurred prosecuting this case. And I know they`re going to try to force Casey Anthony, if she ever makes any money, to pay some of that. But to provide security for her to come to Orlando to check in to begin her probation, that`s going to be expensive, isn`t it?

BROOKS: Well, they`re not going to pay for her -- her security en route to the probation office. But I was -- it was interesting that Judge Perry did talk about security and the threats against Casey, that he has knowledge of them.

But it was also interesting, Jane, that the probation supervisor, the one and only witness that Jose Baez had on the phone, you know, he was -- he asked her, "Well, what about, you know, security for your probation officers if they have to go visit her?"

And she said, basically, "I`m always concerned about security of my probation officers, basically, no matter where they go." But yes, it is -- it could be a concern.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now let`s say the prosecution wins and Casey is forced to begin her probation. Stacey Honowitz, you`re a Florida prosecutor. This is going to have a huge impact on her life. It`s really going to change the trajectory of her life. Because there are a whole bunch of rules. Not just you can`t drink to excess. You can`t smoke marijuana. You can`t have a weapon. But you`ve got to be gainfully employed. You have to get a job. And you`ve got -- you`ve got to really submit yourself to monitoring, the last thing she wants, Stacey.

HONOWITZ: Absolutely. And that`s really the argument that the prosecution is making, that they went to the jail and they saw her. But she was confined for the 23, for the 24 hours. And so how was she really being monitored? We knew where she was. She didn`t have to really follow any of these traditions, because she wouldn`t do it in the jail.

So the fact of the matter is, in order to violate your probation, in order for them to bring you back into court, it`s got to be a willful violation. There are plenty of people that go in to a probation officer and say, "I can`t get a job, I`ve been trying, but I can`t." And so if it`s not a willful violation, she won`t be hauled back into court.

Certainly, there`s going to be an issue with her getting a job. If she`s put back on probation, the probation officer will be made aware of the fact that she`s not the type of person that`s going to walk into the Gap or Pizza Hut and say, "I want a job," and they`re going to give it to her.

So all these things are watched and monitored. And yes, it will be strict, but it`s not the type of thing that, if she doesn`t get a job...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`ve got to leave it right there. If she violates it, she`ll go back to jail.

The Cass case next.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, a town like this, everybody knows everybody. And it`s just devastating that a little girl that age could just come up missing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everybody is just really worried. Everybody`s in shock.

ADAM LARO, CELINA CASS`S FATHER: I can`t believe that she`s walked off. I just can`t believe it. Somebody has had to kidnap her. That`s the only thing -- that`s the only thing I can see that`s happened.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Until we determine the cause and manner of her death, we are just going forward as a suspicious death.

We have brought Celina home, not the way we wanted to bring her home, but thank you for everything.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So emotional. Tonight, ugly twists and turns in the hunt for whoever killed 11-year-old Celina Cass. She`s the adorable New Hampshire girl who vanished from her home two weeks ago, tragically. So sad to say, her body found in a river, wrapped in a blanket, only about a quarter of a mile from her home.

And now a shocking development. Cops have towed away the pickup truck belonging to Celina`s step-dad, and he has checked himself into a mental hospital.

Celina`s stepfather, Wendell Noyes, has a long list of psychiatric problems. Now take a look at this guy right here. In a second you`re going to see him acting in a very bizarre fashion in public, and we are going to show that to you as we introduce HLN law enforcement analyst Mike Brooks.

Mike, look at this behavior, this guy getting down on his knees. What the heck? And now they`ve seized his truck, and he goes into a mental hospital.

BROOKS: It`s interesting, Jane. It looks like he`s almost having a breakdown there. We heard about this after they found the body of little Celina.

You know, the morning they found her body, and they brought her out, they went over to the house, and there was police line tape around the house again. They searched inside the house, but they took pictures of his truck.

Now they have not concluded what the cause and manner of death is yet. They haven`t made it public. They`re waiting for some toxicology tests to come back from the autopsy. But I find it interesting that they went and they would have had to have gotten a search warrant to go ahead and seize his truck now to do a complete forensic examination of his truck. That says a lot, but they still have not named him as a possible suspect.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hmm. Well, I`ll tell you this: her biological father was interviewed before his daughter`s body was found. And he was absolutely certain she didn`t just run away or something like that. Check this out.


LARO: I can`t believe that she`s walked off. I just can`t believe it. Somebody has had to kidnap her. That`s the only thing -- that`s the only thing I can see that`s happened. She`s not the type to just walk off from somewhere.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Now take a look at this. The stepfather, 2003 committed because of schizophrenia. Also arrested for threatening an ex-girlfriend. He violated a protective order. I mean, the list goes on and on. This guy`s got problems, and a judge once said he`s "potentially serious likelihood of danger to himself and others."

And the thing that bothers me most, Mike, he`s the last person to see her, saying she was playing on her computer when he saw her.

BROOKS: Right, Monday -- the night of Monday, July 25, last seen in her room, on her computer around 9 p.m.

And you know, you -- when you`re doing an investigation like this, Jane, as you know -- we talk about this all the time -- you always look at the people who last saw her and who are the closest to the victim. And that would be her mother and the step-dad. But we heard from her natural father that there -- apparently, there had not been any bad blood that he knew of between Celina and the step-dad. So this still remains a mystery until we find out what happened.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Yes. And again, he is not considered a suspect at this point.

All right. Warren Jeffs horror stories next.



KAREN BOBO, HOLLY BOBO`S MOTHER: If someone knows something, they need to tell it so that we can get Holly home where she belongs.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Last night I talked exclusively with missing Holly Bobo`s devastated, frantic family. Tonight, we have confirmed that fugitive child molester Victor George Wall has been arrested. This just happened a little while ago.

Cops began searching for him after the 20-year-old nursing student vanished from her Tennessee home and he was unaccounted for. So they started looking for him.

Now, Holly`s brother told me last night he saw his sister four months ago walking into the woods with a man wearing camouflage. This guy, Wall, is going to be extradited back to Tennessee but investigators say they still do not know whether or not he had any involvement in Holly`s case. They will question him and they will see what they come up with.

That is tonight`s "Top of the Block". We`re going to stay on top of that story. So sad.


CHRISTI PAUL, ANCHOR, "IN SESSION": Guilty on both counts. His own documentations and writings essentially did him in. He went from prophet to rapist in a matter of ten seconds.

ELISSA WALL, FLDS VICTIM: He started to undress me and undress himself. I was crying and I was like, please, I don`t want you doing this. It doesn`t feel right. Please stop.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s been murdering the souls of all these children. These kids don`t know whether they`re up or whether they`re down.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He would come up behind me while I was in a group and seize me by the back of the neck and lean down an whisper in my ear, "Are you keeping sweet or do you need to be punished?"

PAUL: Trying to make sure he gets the maximum sentence possible.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is it the beginning of the end for the FLDS? Even more hideous revelations tonight in the wake of yesterday`s conviction of infamous polygamist leader Warren Jeffs; a jury found him guilty on two counts of sexually assaulting a 12- and a 14-year-old girl, girls he dared to call his spiritual brides.

Well, now the sentencing phase is under way, and we can expect to hear more sick and revolting pornographic conversation, talk of his behavior, even more than we heard in the trial itself.


BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": We`re going to hear testimony from witnesses on the stand about Warren Jeffs, the man. What they say: he`s a sexual pervert, a deviant.

MICHAEL WATKIS, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, KTVK: Basically they said you haven`t seen anything yet if you think that those tapes that they played for the jury up to this point are indicting and heart-breaking. They say that the evidence that they will now present will really make that seem almost trivial.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: It is really horrific to imagine it could get worse than the audio tapes played during the trial itself, the stuff of nightmares. On the tapes, Jeffs is heard instructing these young girls on how to please him sexually. Quote, "You have to know how to be sexually excited and to help each other. And you have to be ready for the time I need your comfort. This is your mission. This is how you abide the law."

Ordered them to take their clothes off -- you can hear girls crying and whimpering. He allegedly raped one and audio taped it. The state says it has so much evidence to present now in the punishment phase that the punishment phase could last more than three days. They`re going for the jugular.

This pedophile masquerading as a prophet could end up getting life in prison. Warren Jeffs` behavior very strange during this entire trial; he insisted on representing himself and now he doesn`t want to sit in the courtroom during the punishment phase.

Straight out to San Angelo, Texas and our own Beth Karas, correspondent for "In Session"; you have been inside the courtroom for all of the drama, what is happening.

KARAS: Well, right now another witness, a second witness is on the stand in the punishment phase. Warren Jeffs is not there. He asked voluntarily to remove himself from the courtroom and the judge after several hours this morning agreed that he can be absent. And she has appointed Derek Walpole, his one-time attorney to represent him now in the punishment phase.

So, no Warren Jeffs at the table, but there is a lawyer there. The prosecution began the punishment phase with a psychologist Larry Beal who has treated more than 1,500 former FLDS members who were under Warren Jeffs. He talked specifically about the damage of underage girls marrying these older men and also just living under him.

He talked about identity formation in a child. How critical it is that a child grow up in a proper environment, socially make choices. These children in the FLDS have all decisions made for them. Their identity formation is stunted.


KARAS: These underage -- these child brides don`t know any better. They think it`s the right thing that`s happening to them when they`re having sex with an older man.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we`re going to talk to a psychiatrist in just a moment. And some of the things that we`re expected to hear, just shocking. The predictions are that we`re going to hear about him kicking out boys to make room for more of the females for the older men. That he married more than one 12-year-old. There`s going to be a whole bunch of illegal sex acts, 78 illegal marriages, 24 with children. These are the predictions. It`s mind-boggling.

Now, here`s what I want to say. I hope this is the tipping point for this cult. I refuse to call it a religion. And I hope that this -- because it`s getting national coverage here on HLN and on "In Session" and elsewhere that the feds are going to wake up and realize we better do something because the ranch in El Dorado is not the only FLDS compound.

Check this out. There are compounds all across the country. Colorado, Texas, Arizona, Utah, Nevada, Idaho, even British Columbia. Ok, these are just the ones we know about.

So I`m going to bring in Laurie Allen. She`s the producer of "Banking on Heaven". She escaped from a polygamist sect and now she`s become one of the nation`s top crusaders against these polygamist cults. Do you feel, given what we`re hearing in this trial, given that these women are brainwashed and they can`t often stand up for themselves that the feds, the Justice Department needs to start raiding these compounds the way they raided the El Dorado one?

LAURIE ALLEN, PRODUCER, "BANKING ON HEAVEN": They absolutely do, Jane. We need the law enforced in these communities. We need real police officers in there to protect these women. We need the Justice Department in there to investigate, the (INAUDIBLE) primes, the fraud, welfare fraud; everything under the sun. Because these people have just had a free pass for way too long.

Arizona and Utah have not done their job. And thank God that Texas is setting an example and starting to clean this up.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, one of the strangest things in a very, very, very strange trial that we`ve heard is that some of these folks -- they`re not these exact ones that you`re looking -- but some of them who wear the outfits, the prairie dresses and the hair and the identical shoes. We have to get into that at some point because that is fascinating to me.

But they, in support of Warren Jeffs, one church has set up a replica of Jeffs jail cell complete with a toilet and a cardboard cut-out of Warren Jeffs. I don`t know what to say beyond that. They`ve set up a replica -- a replica of his jail cell complete with a toilet and a cardboard cut-out of Warren Jeffs.

I know what I`ve got to do, bring in the psychiatrist, Dr. Dale Archer. Dr. Dale, there`s no way for me to wrap my mind around this entire story, but try to help us.

DR. DALE ARCHER, CLINICAL PSYCHIATRIST: Well, first of all, you have to understand, Jane, that no one joins a cult. You`re recruited into a cult. And in this case, I think seduced into a cult would be a better terminology. But even worse --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Born into the cult.

ARCHER: -- when you`re born into the cult. Yes. And as a kid, your normal is programmed from the time you are a baby all the way up into adolescence. So this is what these children know. And remember, they think this is a prophet from God.

So his jail cell may be where their prophet is going to be and that`s going to be their shrine going forward.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, I`ve got to ask you, we heard in court them playing an audio tape of Warren Jeffs raping a 12-year-old while other women held her down. This little girl says something very polite. And her little voice brought everybody to tears.

Is there any way for a child like that to heal from that kind of, I would say annihilation -- humiliation and annihilation?

ARCHER: Yes, Jane, there is a way for them to heal. And you need to look no further than Jaycee Dugard for someone who appears by all accounts to be healing very nicely. The whole thing is you have to get them out of that environment. And you really have to reprogram their thinking. You have to reprogram their normal and let them know that everything they`ve been doing is not normal by the laws of society.

But when you do that, and you get them into a loving, caring environment, it`s amazing how well some of these people can do. So the first step is getting them out and I`m going to support the fact that look, we know what`s going on inside these places.

So you have to go into the other compounds and you have to get these kids out. Because the sooner you do, the sooner they can start healing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Beth Karas, you`ve been there from the beginning, you know so much about this. I do feel there are tipping points. And a lot of people agree when I said this has got to become the tipping point for the beginning of the end of this entire cult phenomenon around the United States. But one thing that has to happen is the U.S. government has to stop subsidizing it by giving allegedly millions of dollars in welfare to the mothers who aren`t the one officially technically married wife. All the other wives that are just spiritual wives, they get government welfare money according to their critics.

Beth Karas.

KARAS: That`s right. They apply as single mothers because they are not legally married to their husbands as plural wives. There`s only one legal wife. So they do get food stamps, for example.

I do believe that the FLDS is pretty wealthy. Last I knew the trust where all the assets go into it was worth about $100 million, $110 million. Maybe that number has been revised recently. But they do have the money to feed their own. They also grow a lot of crops. I don`t think the children will starve without their food stamps.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And what I hear is all those checks go to the same address. And guess who probably takes them? The men.

KARAS: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: More Warren Jeffs on the other side. We`ve got to do something.



GREG ABBOTT, TEXAS ATTORNEY GENERAL: This is all the information that we have. We feel pretty good about the safety and security of the kids who remain in that home setting. These practices that have been used ever since, they got to the YFZ Ranch using children to turn them into young wives and sexually assault them, our information is that those practices no longer exist at the YFZ Ranch.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, that was the Texas attorney general speaking shortly after a jury found Warren Jeffs yesterday guilty -- guilty of sexually assaulting a 12-year-old; guilty of sexually assaulting a 14- year-old who then bore his child at the age of 15.

But Laurie Allen you`re the producer of "Banking in Heaven". You escaped the polygamous sect. He sounds very reassuring oh, no, nothing to see here, nothing is going on anymore. Hey, it`s all -- I don`t buy it. You don`t wipe out that kind of behavior that easily. And I find as much as I admire their prosecution of this case, I find his reassurances a little disturbing frankly.

ALLEN: Jane, it`s a bunch of Baloney. You know, listen you breed them, you feed them. Ok. We have a cult here that over 80 percent of the members, and there`s about 12,000 of them, are on welfare. They`re living off tax payers. Yet they have the money to go buy a 1,700-acre ranch in Texas, build a lavish temple and all these expensive outbuildings.

Where is that money coming from and why can`t they afford to feed their own wives and children if -- they have them all on welfare. It makes no sense. There`s no accountability in Utah and Arizona. Texas is finally do what these other states have not done in 75 year. I`m so proud of Texas, I can`t even tell you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Well, I say don`t be timid, Justice Department. We called the Justice Department here at ISSUES and we wanted to know, are you planning raids? Because these women can`t go and reach the cops in a lot of these communities -- the cops are controlled in some of these communities by the FLDS. We didn`t get a call back. Why not?

There`s a lot of people who work in the Justice Department. Why didn`t we get a call back?

Susan, Florida; your question or thought Susan?

SUSAN, FLORIDA (via telephone): Yes. Hi Jane.


SUSAN: My question is that these women, they have got to know to a certain extent that this breeding, having sex with first cousins, it does cause genetic deficiencies. There is (INAUDIBLE) deficiency also known Polygamist Downs. Do you think that possibly Warren Jeffs suffers from this? And what about the waterboarding of these babies that have been drowned and what about the disposal of these bodies? Is there not any kind of sanctions that they can go in and say improper disposal of bodies.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Susan, you`re raising so many excellent questions. If a child is drowned, what about murder charges? Listen to this about what`s going on allegedly behind closed doors. It`s shocking.


ALLEN: If a woman is being beaten or her daughter is being raped, if she calls the police in that town, the police is FLDS. He follows the order of the prophet, not of the state.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think we need to have more raids. I think we need to raid these compounds and find out what`s going on behind closed doors.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, that was our discussion yesterday after this conviction of Warren Jeffs.

Dr. Dale archer, these women are brainwashed. You see them. We`ll show it again. They`re wearing the same outfits, identical outfits. Their hair is done in the identical way. They`re wearing identical shoes. They are not capable of going up to the cops and the rare instances when they do, often they`re turned back and they`re further punished.

How do you break out of brainwashing? How does a woman with these -- I`ll call it bizarre antiquated outfits go from that to somebody like Laurie Allen, who is joining us on our panel, who is a modern day woman who thinks for herself. Dr. Dale, how do they make that transition?

ARCHER: Well, Jane, you`re absolutely right. They are brainwashed. And of course, this is their uniform. And they are all basically taught to fit in, to be part of the group and to want to have acceptance in this group. And most people that come into a cult are looking for some type of connection.

So the only way you can address that is by getting outside influence in there. And you have to get either them out or you have to bring someone in and it`s like reprogramming their entire brain.

You`re right. They don`t think that what they`re doing is wrong. They don`t know to go to the authorities. They think that this is a community and a society and they`re obeying the rules that they were taught.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to go to Beth Karas. Beth, are we hearing some more disturbing testimony. What exactly are we expected to hear during this punishment phase and could that result in more prosecutions?

KARAS: Well, I`m not sure that it will result in more prosecutions Jane because some of the crimes that the jury is going to hear about didn`t happen within Texas. Now, it doesn`t mean they can be prosecuted elsewhere but there are Utah and Arizona crimes. I`m not sure the statute of limitations has lapsed.

Nonetheless it`s still admissible testimony. There will be people on the stand to talk about having been sodomized and raped by Warren Jeffs when they were children.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The powers that be, the government is dropping the ball on this. Yes, I applaud this prosecution, but it`s nothing -- nothing, compared to the totality of what`s happening out there, more needs to be done. I say it again, raid them.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you want to see dolphins, you have to go where the dolphins and see dolphins in the wild. The dolphin in an aquarium is not displaying any behavior that a wild dolphin is going to display.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: These are among the smartest species on earth; some say almost as smart as humans and certainly they`re some of the most beautiful. But now bottle-nosed dolphins are being hunted, taken from their homes and confined to what for them amounts to tiny pens.

This is video of these majestic creatures in the ocean. They have lived off the coast of the Solomon Islands for thousands of years, but critics claim that earlier this year, 27 dolphins were taken from their natural habitat, stuffed on to airplanes and allegedly flown thousands of miles to for them very small enclosures. Remember these animals travel huge distances in the water, in the wild.

Critics charge, two of the dolphins have already died. The remaining 25 are allegedly being trained to perform for a marine park at a swanky vacation spot in Singapore called Resorts World, Sentosa.

We called Genting International which owns the resort as well as the resort itself. We reached out and we found one person at the resort, he claimed he couldn`t hear us and he hung up. We also e-mailed and got nothing back. Nobody else has gotten back to us either.

But you know what; but anybody involved in this at all is welcome to come on our show at any time to give us their side of the story.

With me tonight, one of my heroes, famed dolphin trainer and activist Ric O`Barry; of course, you were involved in the Oscar-winning documentary, one of the stars of "The Cove". You may remember from the Academy Awards. Ric, thank you for being here.

So what`s the latest with these 25 dolphins?

RIC O`BARRY, DOLPHIN TRAINER AND ACTIVIST: Well there`s a huge movement, mainly children in Singapore, and in the Philippines, trying to get these 25 dolphins back to the Solomon Islands where they can be rehabilitated and released back in the wild. All of the information is on this Web site,, hoping people will take action and try to convince Resorts World to do the right thing.

These dolphins were captured from the wild and dragged kicking and screaming into captivity. And they say they`re doing this to educate the public so they can teach people respect for nature. This is hypocrisy.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How do you teach respect for nature by taking animals out of the wild and then putting them in pens? This controversy over what`s being called the Sentosa 25 attracting lots of attention. Hollywood stars getting involved. Listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My friend races sailboats and always wins.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My friend has no problem hitting a high note.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My friend can surf waves 25 feet high.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have I seen you try that?

MARISKA HARGITAY, ACTRESS: But that doesn`t mean that he`s always happy.

ROBIN WILLIAMS, ACTOR: My friend doesn`t belong in captivity.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He doesn`t belong in captivity.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His home is in the ocean.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow, you have some huge stars involved in fighting this. What kind of stress in your opinion do these animals experience as they are captured?

O`BARRY: Well, everything about captivity is unnatural for dolphins and it is the stress that kills them. But they can be released back into the wild successfully, Resorts World makes billions with a B in profit each year, they don`t need these ornamental dolphins in their resort casino for privileged people to see.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Rick, more on the other side. Stay right there.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: A coalition of environmental groups says they have collected about 650,000 signatures and they urge anyone who wants to get involved to go to Ric O`Barry, what would you tell the powers that be to convince them about what you want them to do, quickly?

O`BARRY: Well, Resorts World has a great opportunity here to send a powerful, positive message to the rest of the world, a message about respect for nature by simply taking the dolphins back to the Solomon Islands. Earth Island Institute (ph) has been able to stop the dolphin captures and the dolphin killings that go on over.

There`s a new government in place. They would love to have these dolphins back if we create jobs for people. And the community would help rehabilitate them and release them back into the wild. Wouldn`t that be a windfall of positive publicity for Resorts World?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ric, you`re speaking because they can`t speak for themselves.