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Sentencing for Warren Jeffs
Aired August 8, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
Convicted child rapist Warren Jeffs is more despicable than we ever knew. Are FLDS women and children being violated right now as I speak? Life in prison may be way too good for this animal.
And did the King of Pop`s doctor kill Michael Jackson? A jury will decide this later, but I`ll tell you what I think about stars and their physicians right now.
So let`s go figure it out.
Tonight, breaking news. Will sickening testimony of twisted family sex and rape ensure that polygamist cult leader Warren Jeffs gets life behind bars?
Watch this, then we will talk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The jury that convicted Warren Jeffs of sexual assault is now deciding how he will be punished.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jurors cried during the sentencing phase of the trial of Warren Jeffs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jurors heard from Warren Jeffs` nephew, Brent Jeffs. He claims his uncle raped him at the age of 5.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jerusha (ph) Jeffs testified after her brother Brent. She said, "He stole my innocence. I didn`t know it was inappropriate, the things that he did to me."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Warren Jeffs remains outside the courtroom at his request. He told the judge he didn`t want to hear his religion degraded in open court.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was on trial here in San Angelo wasn`t anyone`s faith, wasn`t church, wasn`t a compound.
PINSKY: That is so true. That is my hero speaking there.
Today, jurors heard Jeffs -- that he had group sex with kids and, are you ready for this? Three of his own sisters. Again, all caught on tape.
Jeffs` disgusting orgy was with five young women, one just 13 years of age. Warren told the girls and his sisters that this ritual was a priesthood ordinance.
It`s just breathtaking. We`re hearing this info from sources inside the courtroom. They say what they`re hearing is actually too graphic to give us any more detail or for us to really be broadcasting here on television.
Now, the sentencing has not come down yet, but we know this guy`s going away for a long time, probably for life. But this isn`t over.
What is next for the women and children who are still living inside the compound walls? How can we get them out? How can we get them what they need?
Now, we want to help here. I would sure like to help, but I don`t know what I can do.
So let`s go to my guests here. Former FLDS member Flora Jessop is here with me, Sam Brower, a private investigator who`s been looking into the FLDS for years, and correspondent with "In Session" on truTV, Beth Karas, joins us.
Beth, give us the latest.
BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: Well, the jury heard three tapes as you just described. I won`t go into detail, but basically Warren Jeffs instructed the ones present, five of them, how to ready themselves with each other to be ready for him. He told them to lose their inhibitions and reservations. Basically, have sex with each other, as well as with him.
In one of the writings that he recorded, read to the jury, he said, "If the world knew what I was doing, they would hang me from the highest tree." Those jurors who are going to be deciding his fate probably as early as tomorrow may have said to themselves, you betcha, we`re going to, because they are considering up to life in prison for a sentence.
The state is wrapping up its case right now. The latest thing is the jurors are hearing about the expulsion of many men from the FLDS, at the orders of Warren Jeffs, and also the reassignment of wives and children to other men within the compound.
PINSKY: Beth, do you think that that small glimmer of insight into how egregious his behavior actually is suggests to the jury that this religious cloak is just a ruse?
KARAS: Absolutely. That is the point that the state is trying to make. And I suspect that we will hear Eric Nichols, the prosecutor, say that in his final closing argument, that this man used religious as a ruse, as a guise to carry out his multiple acts of pedophilia. The very first witness in this punishment phase last week was a psychologist who said that Warren Jeffs is indeed a pedophile.
PINSKY: Very interesting.
During the sentencing hearing, Warren Jeffs` nephew, a male, Brent Jeffs, told jurors he was also abused by the polygamist leader. Brent is now 28. He reported that his uncle raped him when he was just 5 years of age.
Brent says, "He began to tell me we were going to do God`s will," and "This is between you, me and God."
Three jurors cried as Brent spoke. Several also wept during testimony from Jeff`s niece. She says he was 7 years old when "He made me sit on his lap and did inappropriate things to me." And this young woman was crying so hard, at one point the prosecutor stopped the questioning.
This is the misery that this guy is inflicting upon the people in that compound.
Now, Flora, Jeffs made it public that he was having sex with young girls. He was proud of it because this was God`s plan for him. He was the prophet after all. Let`s be fair here.
By the way, I`m sure the judge is still suffering from her illness that he put upon her.
And people watched as he publicly married these girls. Now, we`re hearing now about boys as well, very young boys.
What do you know of Jeffs and his sexual abuse of the young males, as well as the boys? And he seemed to have a good deal of shame about the boys, making that secretive.
FLORA JESSOP, FMR. FLDS MEMBER: Right. They very much look down on anything that has to do with the possibility of being gay or anything like that. But Warren Jeffs has been sexually abusing both male and female children for years.
And Brent was not the only one of that family, the young boys that was molested by Warren Jeffs. He had brothers that were also molested that have come forward.
You know, this is not something that`s new to the FLDS. The former prophet Leroy Johnson married a 12-year-old. John Y. Barlow married an 11- year-old. Leroy Johnson`s brother married a 9-year-old and an 11-year-old.
This is a pattern and practice that has been carried down through the FLDS. And so for these guys to now sit and say we had no idea is wrong. It`s a lie. This has been carried out by the FLDS for years.
PINSKY: Well, Flora, let me ask you a tough -- I`m sorry to interrupt you because of our satellite delay here, but I`m going to ask a tough question, that once someone has been the object of sexual abuse during childhood, there`s a certain probability that they themselves in their adulthood can become a perpetrator.
In a closed system where it`s sort of valued to marry at a young age, it seems like, with all these potential victimizers, how pervasive do you think victimization is within that community?
JESSOP: I know it`s very pervasive, Dr. Drew. I myself have gone to the court system in Utah and northern Arizona and pulled hundreds of court records where, once these young boys are kicked out on to the streets, they have been arrested for molesting children once they`re out here in the outside world.
Where they`re protected in their crimes inside the FLDS, they`re not protected once they get kicked out of the group. So I personally have over 300 court records.
What`s very troubling about these court records is that they are very serious crimes against children, oftentimes sodomy of a child on 5-year- olds and 7-year-olds, that type of crime. The sentences we`re getting in Utah and Arizona, for instance, is we got a sentence of 10 days in one case. We`ve got a sentence of nine months, I think, was the highest.
PINSKY: Flora, are they getting referred for treatment?
JESSOP: No. The majority of these men are getting probation.
Listen, and for those of you that wonder if there is treatment, there is treatment, but somebody has to want to get that treatment and want to get better, and has to be offered. And it`s time-consuming and expensive.
Now, ex-FLDS members are open about how Jeffs abused them. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELISSA WALL, FMR. FLDS MEMBER: He started to undress me and undress himself. I was crying and I was, like, "Please. I don`t want you to. It doesn`t feel right. Please stop."
JESSOP: He`s been involved (ph) in the assault of all these children. These kids don`t know whether they`re up or whether they`re down.
KATHY JO NICHOLSON, FMR. FLDS MEMBER: He would come up behind me while I was in a group and seize me by the back of the neck, and lean down and whisper in my ear, "Are you keeping sweet or do you need to be punished?"
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Oh, my goodness.
Again, as I said, what scares me is we`ve got a bunch of trauma survivors there that need help and treatment to break the cycle.
Sam, how can we get them free of this mind control we`ve been talking about?
SAM BROWER, AUTHOR, "PROPHET`S PREY": That`s a great question. I`ve been trying for years to bring this out into the public, that the people there are not allowed to get on the Internet, read magazines or newspapers, watch TV. They`re not even allowed to listen to these proceedings that are going on here.
And the sad fact is, when they`re commanded not to do that, they really don`t do it. They will not look. They will not investigate for themselves.
So it`s very, very difficult to get any information back to them. And when you do, they don`t believe you.
They`ve been taught that you`re part of the wicked outside world, you`re a Gentile, you`ll lie to us. And so nothing you say to them is believable. Even people that have left or have been kicked out do as they`re told.
For years it takes sometimes to get them to start -- begin to listen and begin to open, and understanding. One of the biggest problems is they don`t have a base of reference to go back to. There was never a period of normalcy in their lives.
PINSKY: No, that`s exactly right, is that it`s an inclusive system that we have to somehow penetrate and give them support for being healthy. And that`s going to take some challenge. The Texas attorney general said we need to contact the legislators, the congressmen and women that represent these areas, and begin getting them -- putting pressure on them to change the way this is all looked at in the eyes of the law.
Thank you, Sam.
Sam and Flora, stay with me.
Thank you, Beth, for joining us.
Coming up, an admission of guilt from Warren Jeffs. You decide.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSOP: If you understand Warren Jeffs and the narcissistic personality type that he is, he believes, I think, that he is the only one, through the guidance of God, is going to convince all of us that he should be left alone to raise children, that it`s a sacred right that he holds.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My story is we have had our children taken from us on an allegation that has no foundation. Now we will do whatever it takes to get the children reunited with their mothers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Well, clearly, those allegations had some foundation. And more disturbing details still coming from the trial of polygamist leader Warren Jeffs today. How do these FLDS mothers look the other way when men are raping and sexually molesting their children?
I`ll tell you what, usually it`s because they themselves were victims of sexual abuse. And to recognize that they were subjecting their own children to this is too painful and, by the way, normalized by the community.
Back with me is private detective Sam Brower, who`s been investigating the FLDS the past seven years. We also have former FLDS member Flora Jessop. And joining me on the phone, Elissa Wall, also a former FLDS member who testified against Jeffs during his 2007 trial, where he was found guilty of two counts of being an accomplice to rape.
In addition to jurors hearing the just disgusting audiotape of Jeffs giving sexual instructions to young girls today, an FBI agent read from a priesthood record -- how lovely -- taken from the compound where Jeffs wrote the following: "Things are happening so quickly, there`s an even younger girl that the Lord wants me to take. She is 13. For some reason the Lord is sending me these girls that can be worked with." And later, "If the world knew what I was doing, they would hang me from the highest tree."
Sam, my question, is this an admission of guilt by Warren Jeffs?
BROWER: Absolutely. It`s not only that -- by the way, I`d kind of like that sentence he pronounced on himself.
But it`s not only that, he`s admitted it repeatedly, over and over and over in his records. I believe he knows exactly what he was doing.
He was doing it not only with young girls, but boys. He was having a good old time traveling around the country visiting places like the Gentile amusement park in Disneyland, and traveling all over the country, going to Mardi Gras and going to strip clubs.
And so I believe he knew exactly what he was doing. And this is the time that he pays the piper now.
And it`s refreshing. It`s really good to see that happening. And as I said earlier, when this all began, it`s time that it all came out. And it is now.
It`s all coming out. It`s being laid out in front of the jury and the world, just exactly what kind of person Warren Jeffs really is.
PINSKY: Well, the unfortunate thing, Sam, is that that`s out, the head of the snake is gone. But there is a lot more work to be done, it seems to me.
Now, other documents recovered from the 2008 raid on the FLDS ranch include statements from Jeffs made just days after his arrest warrant was issued in June of 2005 telling FLDS members to "destroy their training disks and transcripts," and to take up arms in case of a government raid.
Now, if officials tried to enter the compound, Jeffs instructed them, " -- the men to fight to the death to protect the temple."
Flora, isn`t this supposedly a peaceful people?
JESSOP: You know, they claim to be a peaceful people and have forever, Dr. Drew. But they have forever taught that one day we would go to war with law enforcement, the streets would run red with the blood of our enemies, and that we would be God`s army in fighting Satan here on Earth. This has been a teaching since I was a little girl.
PINSKY: Wow. I mean, it`s just -- the twisted thinking is so difficult to get your head around.
You know, you have to on a certain level -- I mean, although I`m outraged by what these moms have done, on another level it kind of bends your thinking a little bit, because many of these moms were the victim of abuse. They`re in an environment where they don`t see the outside world.
Elissa, do you still harbor deep resentments for your own family, say, given that they helped perpetrate some of the abuse?
WALL: That`s a large question for me, because where I stand is I love them so dearly, and I am desperate to give them another option in life other than what they`re exposed to. I don`t resent them, but I realize as life goes on, that we have to put them into perspective as being victims, but also being perpetrators.
It`s a fine balance. And finding that fine balance is a constant journey, it`s a constant struggle of finding what really is going to impact these women and impact future generations of young girls who will grow up and have their own children, and balancing that with the mercy of realizing that they`re victims themselves. And how can we change a society that is continuing to create perpetrators?
PINSKY: Really good point. And I think just enforcing the rule of law would be an important way, or at least having the law followed within those communities.
Again, please, people, check with your legislators if you want to do something about this.
Now, do you want to know how I would diagnose Warren Jeffs? Well, perhaps I`ll tell you next.
And later, why did Michael Jackson die? The trial of Conrad Murray could have the answers. Michael`s friends weigh in.
PINSKY: Now, many of you want to know, what is wrong with Warren Jeffs? Is he sick, is he crazy, or what`s going on here?
Let`s go to the phones.
I`ve got Cara.
CARA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Cara.
CARA: Just with the information available to you, how would you diagnose Warren Jeffs? And also, do you believe that he really is a spiritual man?
PINSKY: You know, I can`t answer the spiritual man question, because he`s using -- if he is spiritual, he`s using his spirituality as a way of manipulating. And then, isn`t by definition then he`s not a spiritual man?
I would call him a sociopath. I keep hearing "narcissist" from people that know him, that he believes he`s bigger than life, but I think it`s far more than that. People are objects to him for him to manipulate, because, after all, just ask him. He`s God -- God on Earth. It`s disgusting.
Lily on Facebook writes, "Why are the women who held down that 12- year-old to be raped by this monster not being charged? In my eyes they are equally guilty of sexual assault."
And I`ll tell you what there, Lily. I don`t think you are alone. There`s many people that feel the same way.
And as I keep bringing up here, no doubt those women themselves were victims of sexual abuse, and so they feel somehow this is normalized behavior. For them to really touch how painful and traumatizing this is, and to acknowledge they`re subjecting another young girl to this is shattering. And, by the way, to acknowledge that to them exposes the possibility of going hell, doesn`t it, and being ostracized?
So there`s just so much going on here.
Back to the phones. This is Marcia.
What`s up there, Marcia?
MARCIA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Marcia.
MARCIA: Everybody, including you, is saying that public assistance for FLDS children should stop. It`s obvious the fathers aren`t taking the responsibility to work and support all the kids. So what prompts making sure the kids are getting what they need and being taken care of?
PINSKY: Well, you`re right. I have been questioning the public support for them and saying it`s your tax dollars supporting an organization like this.
I`m not saying the women shouldn`t necessarily get it, but if they do get it, let`s get them out of that organization and out of that environment. And, by the way, if they`re staying there, married, well, then isn`t that that guy`s responsibility? And, by the way, if we make it his responsibility, maybe he won`t be so anxious to marry all those women. Maybe not.
But I agree with you, the women do need to be taken care of, and so do the children. But we don`t need to support a sick environment.
Barbara sent us this on Facebook: "What side-effects do you think FLDS babies that were put under water for crying are suffering from today?"
And it`s hard to say. You know, it`s almost like a human experiment going on there. I`ve never seen that.
You could just imagine that being -- when you`re held in the arms of somebody that you relied upon for your nurturance and safety, and you`re exposed to then a near-death experience, I don`t think things get more traumatizing than that. And that tends to induce disassociation and a lot of psychiatric and psychological symptomatology.
One last question from Facebook. Amber wants to know, "Now that Warren Jeffs is convicted for his horrendous crimes, do you think this will send a message to other FLDS congregations?"
Well, hard to say. I mean, they`re so paranoid and they`re so closed, it might entrench them. I hope it sends a message and starts raising some questions. And I hope we can infiltrate and raise awareness and offer support for those who want to get out.
Up next, it`s been two years since the death of music icon Michael Jackson. But how did he die and who, if anyone, is to blame?
We will talk to Michael Jackson`s closest friends about his death and the upcoming criminal trial when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Michael Jackson`s personal physician on trial for manslaughter. Prosecutors say Conrad Murray killed the pop legend with lethal levels of propofol. Who is this man? What exactly is he accused of? Did he do it? And should he be locked up?
Plus, it isn`t the first time we`ve seen this issue. Remember Anna Nicole? I`m talking to her former doctor, a man found not guilty of similar charges.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): Michael Jackson arguably the greatest entertainer the world has ever known, but on June 25th, 2009, his talent was silenced forever. Today, a pre-trial hearing is scheduled for Dr. Conrad Murray, the man charged with Jackson`s death, but who exactly is Conrad Murray and how did Michael Jackson really die? The evidence is as compelling as it is conflicting.
Over the coming weeks and months, I suspect, we`re going to be dissecting this trial for you, hopefully, in a way no one else can. (INAUDIBLE). So, let`s all figure this out together and make it something we can really understand and get our head around and maybe learn something and finally get to the bottom of who killed Michael Jackson. How did he die? The king of pop. Watch this.
PINSKY (voice-over): L.A. dispatch gets a 911 call for a 50-year-old man in distress.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, he`s not breathing, sir.
PINSKY: Reports trickle in slowly.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Michael Jackson, the king of pop --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was taken to the hospital.
PINSKY: Within minutes, it becomes a steady stream.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There were rumors --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was apparently administered CPR in the ambulance.
PINSKY: And soon, it`s a flood. And before day`s end, a tsunami.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael Jackson, 50 years old, the king of pop has died.
PINSKY: The world united in grief for the biggest star any of us had ever known. When the tears dried, the questions began.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lethal levels of propofol killed Michael Jackson.
PINSKY: Soon, suspicions centered on this man, Jackson`s physician, Dr. Conrad Murray.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigations to Michael Jackson`s death has taken a dramatic turn. Reports that Jackson`s death might not have been an accident and allegations Conrad Murray provided the poison that killed him. Soon, Murray was in the cross hairs of prosecutors.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The charged defense of involuntary manslaughter, a felony, Dr. Murray. How do you plead?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not guilty.
PINSKY (on-camera): All right. So, before we go any further, let me say this. Anytime a doctor-patient relationship becomes special, special because there`s a celebrity or there`s lots of money changing hands, it becomes adulterated and probably compromised. Now, this case involves a world famous superstar and a physician who lived in his home.
Now, when you`re dealing with an addict, which Michael Jackson apparently was, it takes more than one professional, one medical professional. It takes a team. And finally, I want you all to remember that our attitude towards medications, all of us, has become way too casual. Just because a doctor prescribes a medicine doesn`t mean it isn`t dangerous or possibly deadly. Now, the coroner ruled that propofol killed Michael Jackson.
Hardly a prescription drug. It`s a surgical anesthetic use in I.C.U.s, E.R.s, and operating rooms. Not used outside of a hospital, right? Now, the state says that Dr. Murray administered the fatal dose in Jackson`s home. The defense claims Michael Jackson gave himself the lethal dose. And I`ve got to say, I`ve read through the autopsy report and the police reports today, and there`s mentions that in those reports which is interesting.
Joining me now is Brian Oxman. He has known the Jackson family for over 24 years and once represented Michael in his 2005 child molestation trial. Damon Elliott was a friend of Michael Jackson since childhood. He`s also a music producer who was writing a song with Michael just before his death. Deepak Chopra is with us. He knew Michael very well for 20 years. He was a close friend and adviser. Deepak, you and I have spoken about this. I want to just go to you first. You spoke to Michael in the weeks before he died. Did he seem well to you?
DR. DEEPAK CHOPRA, MICHAEL JACKSON`S FRIEND, ADVISOR: He did, actually. He was very enthusiastic about the upcoming tour. That was a week before. He was also speaking about songs that he was writing about the environment. And then about 48 hours before this happened, he left a message on my voice mail. Unfortunately, I did not pick it up until two days later.
So, I picked up the message after he had died. And even in that voicemail, he was excited. Call me back, et cetera. When I finally got to calling him back, the number had been disconnected, which was not unusual for Michael, anyway.
PINSKY: Deepak, you and I had spoken about your relationship with him at one time in the past, and I`m interested that you were sort of establishing a relationship with him before he died, because you had told me that you once had confronted him about his prescription drug abuse, and he dismissed you from his inner circle as a result.
CHOPRA: He had. That was awhile ago, actually, that I had confronted him. And, at that time, now, that I recall, and I mentioned this before. He also mentioned that, you know, Deepak, there`s thing that you can take that takes you to the valley of death and then brings you just back from there. I said what are you talking about? I`d never heard of any such thing. And of course, in hindsight, we know he was talking about propofol, the anesthetic.
And you know, I just -- that thing went out of my mind. But I did confront him, because he asked me to write a prescription. And, then, he became unavailable to me after that.
PINSKY: Let me ask --
PINSKY: I`m going to ask you. Another physician with me here in the panel of the segment and asked you this, are you as stunned as I am about propofol being administrated outside a hospital? I just can`t -- it`s like a -- to me, it`s like a stunning as like a Martian landing in the parking lot today. That`s unheard of in my world.
CHOPRA: Actually, yes. It`s unheard of, but then, I did do some research after Michael`s death and found out that, you know, people have used it outside, and it`s a drug of abuse. And, it`s very difficult to get. So, the only way you can get it is through a physician. And, yes. It`s very infrequent, but I had never heard of that until that particular episode, until Michael`s episode.
PINSKY: Yes. I never heard of a doctor prescribing it. I have heard of anesthesiologists becoming addicted to it and taking it outside the hospital and using it. Now, on June 23rd, 2009, jut -- Deepak, do you want to say something there?
CHOPRA: Yes. I`m here.
PINSKY: OK. Now, on June 23rd, 2009, just two days before Michael`s death, a portion of the rehearsal for his "This Is It" tour was recorded at the Staples Center in Los Angeles. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(SINGING) some things in life they just don`t want to see, but if Martin Luther was living, he wouldn`t let this be, no. All I want to say if they don`t really care about us. All I want to say is that they don`t care about us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. Damien, as a friend and music producer, do you think the footage depicts a healthy Michael Jackson there? Would he fluctuate?
DAMON ELLIOTT, MICHAEL JACKSON`S CHILDHOOD FRIEND: Well, you know, I think he was healthy. I didn`t know much behind closed doors, obviously.
PINSKY: Did you have concerns about him? Were you worried?
ELLIOTT: I think we all were worried at some point, you know, different points. I`m more of a close friend to Jermaine, Michael`s brother. And, we were working on a song that we wanted to release and have Michael and the whole family a part of. And everybody was super excited. And, you know, it`s just when this death happened -- like to the world, it was such a shock, you know?
PINSKY: Yes. It was a shock, but, you know, again, I read the autopsy. It didn`t (ph) show that he had sort of chronic lung problems. He was not in great shape physically. Certainly, those around him must have kind of been concerned about the direction he was going.
ELLIOTT: Well, you`re generally concerned about any artist that has that much stress. Like my mother friends, Dionne Warwick, and she travels 320 days a year. She`s 70 years old. There`s general concern.
PINSKY: So, it`s that kind of a concern like --
ELLIOTT: Yes. Like, imagine if my mom was doing moves like Justin Bieber who`s, you know, 17 years old and able to, you know, perform at the hype of a 17-year-old. It`s like any athlete.
ELLIOTT: You know?
PINSKY: All right. Fair enough. So, people saw that general concerns.
PINSKY: Now, for those of us who followed Michael Jackson`s 2005 child molestation trial, I want to share this piece of video the day that Michael Jackson arrived in court. He was in pajama bottoms and slippers and a suit coat. Now, he was more than an hour late at that time, and attorneys said he was suffering from serious back pain caused by a fall. Brian, as part of Michael`s defense team, were you aware of any drug usage at that time?
BRIAN OXMAN, JACKSON FAMILY FRIEND FOR 23 YEARS: The answer is of course. And it seems that people were shocked that Michael would have these kinds of problems. But those of us around him and those of us who loved him and dealt with him for most of our adult lives, we knew what Michael`s condition was. He had fallen from a stage. He cracked a vertebrae in his back. He also broke the femur in his leg.
PINSKY: When was that?
OXMAN: This was in 1998, he sustained this.
PINSKY: So, is that before the burn?
OXMAN: This is after the burn. The burn was 1984 or 1985.
PINSKY: So, I`ve heard people speculate the drug use started with the burn.
OXMAN: Not really. There was some usage then, but mostly, it was for pain. Michael was not a party animal. Michael was not someone who got loaded for the fun of it. He was a serious man who had serious pain.
PINSKY: OK. So, Brian, give me your perspective on what we`re dealing with here. We`ve got somebody with addictive potential. We know because he got addicted, with chronic pain. Were there ever any attempts to treat addiction and chronic pain or was he always approached to just as a pain patient?
OXMAN: No. He went to several different physicians and clinics to treat addiction.
OXMAN: He acknowledged that he had done that, and he tried very hard to control this. The thing is, like most people who have a problem, I have it under control. Don`t worry about it. I can handle this. The trouble is, you can`t handle it. And that`s what the story of Michael Jackson really was. No matter how hard you try, you can`t handle it.
PINSKY: And especially I imagine somebody with his power, too, to come in more aggressively with an abstinence message, with the pain, almost impossible.
OXMAN: I have clients who are poor, and they reach rock bottom, and we get together with the family say, come on, you`re going to rehab. But now, imagine a billionaire, a multibillionaire and you`re going to tell them what they`re going to do? The answer is no.
Someone with this kind of power, someone with this kind of intelligence, he was the most brilliant performer, I think, that the world has ever seen. You`re not going to be able to tell him or grab him and take him to a rehabilitation clinic.
PINSKY: Damon, you`re shaking your head vigorously.
ELLIOTT: Yes. You know, when you`re surrounded by a bunch of yes men.
PINSKY: But why can`t you penetrate that? I work on that all the time.
ELLIOTT: You know. OK. You know, when --
PINSKY: I do know. The fact is there are things that can be done to --
PINSKY: And admittedly, the patient has to want to get better. Let`s be fair.
ELLIOTT: Right. Absolutely has to want to get better, but, sometimes, it takes that friend or family member --
PINSKY: To breakthrough.
ELLIOTT: To shake you up.
PINSKY: That`s right.
ELLIOTT: And to breakthrough, because when you`re surrounded by a bunch of yes men, and there`s a lot of money involved --
PINSKY: Well, I understand. Brian, Damon, and hopefully, Deepak, we want to have you all back in the next segment. We also have one of Anna Nicole Smith`s doctors who admits that he actually made out with this patient. He also gave her methadone and Valium. Next, we`re going to have a conversation with the man who was her doctor and hope he can give us some insight into the Michael Jackson case and the pop star`s relationship with Dr. Murray.
PINSKY: All right. Now, as I`ve said, I`m going to have that last panel back, Deepak Chopra, Brian Oxman, and Damon Elliott. During this week and on future shows, they were good and I want to hear more from them. Now, as you also heard me say, there are definite and distinct boundaries between doctors and patients just like there are between clergy and subjects and teachers and students. As physicians, we have to think about these boundaries all the time.
My next guest, Dr. Sandeep Kapoor, one of Anna Nicole Smith`s doctors, was charged with conspiring to unlawfully provide controlled substances to Anna Nicole who was a known addict and obtaining medication through fraud. The jury found him not guilty of the charges, and he admits to crossing the line with Anna Nicole and now has a lot to say about Conrad Murray and Michael Jackson.
At the trial, the prosecution showed evidence of him attending a gay pride parade with Anna Nicole. And here is his journal entry that was read at the trial. Quote, "I was making out with Anna, my patient, blurring the lines. I gave her methadone and Valium," unquote. In retrospect, I understand you`re found not guilty of these conspiracy charges. Things you might have done differently.
SANDEEP KAPOOR, M.D., ANNA NICHOLE`S PHYSICIAN: Well, in retrospect, you can look at any patient and look at things that you may have done differently.
PINSKY: But you talked about crossing lines here, making out with a patient. I mean, that`s --
KAPOOR: Certainly one day. This is the one day out of a three-year history with taken care --
PINSKY: Well, what if it were a teacher and a student. That one day, the teacher made out with the student. That`s crossing over.
KAPOOR: It was a party situation. It was one day. And I admit that there was a judgment issue involved in that. It was the only time it happened.
PINSKY: Is going to a party with a patient OK?
KAPOOR: It was the same day. It was that same afternoon.
PINSKY: But I mean, is going to a party with a patient OK?
KAPOOR: Probably not a celebrity patient. And in the case of going to a family doctor going to dinner at a patient`s house or a party I think is OK.
PINSKY: I can tell you as an addictionologist, you never, never -- of an addict, you never cross -- trying to cross those kinds of boundaries. They have horrible, horrible boundaries.
KAPOOR: Well, then, again, you`re going to assume that she was found to be an addict, and actually --
PINSKY: She died of addiction.
KAPOOR: Well, she wasn`t found to be an addict via in the court. That was one of the issues that was discussed heavily.
PINSKY: Let`s talk about that. She died of an abscess in her gluteal muscle and became septic from, probably, MRSA, a staph infection. As I understand --
KAPOOR: That was a combination of that. Plus, she was -- had an overdose of chloral hydrate sleeping medication.
PINSKY: OK. And she was on opiates at the time.
KAPOOR: She was on some opiates, but they were not prescribed by me. She was not under my care for probably about six or seven months prior to this.
PINSKY: So, she`s on painkillers. OK. So, let me just -- for the viewers at home. People don`t understand that this is what she died of. She had -- from injection -- I read her autopsy report. And she had had so many injections of painkillers in her gluteal muscle that was actually like wood back there. And inside that woody decomposition was an abscess of staph that no one knew about, because there was so much scarring from all the injections of pain medicine. That`s what the autopsy showed.
KAPOOR: She had injections of T12.
KAPOOR: It`s all perception, and it`s all -- you know,
PINSKY: So, Anna Nicole was not a drug addict?
KAPOOR: Well, that`s what -- under my care, she was not a drug addict. She went to the Betty Ford Clinic in the mid 1990s.
PINSKY: OK. So, -- wait, wait. In order to be admitted to the Betty Ford Center, you have to meet criteria for addiction. Period. End. So, she is, by definition, an addict. Period. That`s like saying, if she was admitted for heart failure with I.C.U. but didn`t have heart failure.
KAPOOR: As you well know, the physician (ph) there are different definitions. There are legal definitions of addiction. There are --
PINSKY: Clinical definitions. Yes.
KAPOOR: And, you know, in the case of like alcohol, once an addict always an addict.
PINSKY: Yes. Absolutely. That`s what she`s admitted for addiction. She had that diagnosis.
KAPOOR: Right. Now, the question is, does an addict deserve pain medication? Do they deserve adequate pain medication or control of their other medical symptoms? Or you just merely say well, geez, they only need to see an addictionologist --
PINSKY: Oh, no, no. They need --
KAPOOR: So, that`s --
PINSKY: That`s how Michael Jackson died.
KAPOOR: Pain is a part of people`s lives. It`s live in -- and I assume that Michael Jackson had a lot of issues with pain from his accidents and his explosion with his hair. So, for many years it`s been documented that he had issues with his pain, and maybe, it wasn`t well managed. Who knows?
PINSKY: Right. If it had been better managed, what would that have looked like?
KAPOOR: Well, hopefully, he would have had a pain management specialist. He would have probably had a psychiatrist dealing with emotional issues.
PINSKY: OK. You`re making a great point. So, the deal is that there should have been a team around him.
KAPOOR: I agree. There should have been a team around him.
PINSKY: Do you wish you`d created a team for Anna Nicole?
KAPOOR: Well, who knows there wasn`t a team? She was seeing a psychiatrist. She was seeing an OB GYN. I mean, for those time, I take care -- remember at eight months that she was pregnant. So, I was working with the OB GYN team at Peter Sinai, and her OB GYN to prenatal care.
PINSKY: So, he was the head of the team that you were just the internist for.
KAPOOR: I was doing the pain. I`m a pain specialist. I was working with her pain.
PINSKY: OK. I`ve got to interrupt you now. We`re going to make the point that it -- we`re going to keep talking to Dr. Kapoor in a second here. Now, it is legal for a doctor in California to give drugs to a patient. If they`re known to be an addict, still, you can give them pain killers like we`re talking about here. Now, the question is, will this be part of Dr. Murray`s defense? We`re going to ask those questions when we come back.
PINSKY: We`ve been talking about doctor-patient relationships with Dr. Sandeep Kapoor. He was found not guilty of providing drugs to Anna Nicole Smith. He knows a lot about being in the spotlight and can relate to what Conrad Murray is going through as he heads to trial in a month.
My question is, we were talking about pain management, and I want you to make that point about adequate pain control even when somebody is an addict. And tell us what you think is ahead for Conrad Murray and how you`ve personally been specifically through this, what is a nightmare, I imagine.
KAPOOR: It was a nightmare. I mean, when you -- it is challenging and then one of the specialties I have in treating patients with chronic pain more than just, you know, incidental pain they may have from an accident, it happens over years, is trying to balance all the issues, you know, related to -- certainly you always worry about addiction or whether or not patients are using the medication. You see them frequently.
The idea is to see them frequently and also not ignore other medical issues that may be happening at the same time like infections and other things that they, you know, they may not be eating properly or taking care of themselves.
PINSKY: With Conrad Murray, I mean, you personally -- it must bring you posttraumatic stress to watch what he`s going through.
KAPOOR: Well, I mean, the media certainly around him is much probably bigger than what I experience with Anna Nicole Smith. But, you know, my office was, you know, surrounded by paparazzi in my small town in studio (ph) city. I was raided by the police with helicopters and guns, and my newborn twins were there. (INAUDIBLE) My parents were held at gunpoint.
PINSKY: Your parents were held at gunpoint?
KAPOOR: They were in the house and it was protocol, you know, to --
PINSKY: Oh, my goodness.
KAPOOR: So, this is a neighborhood, a quiet neighborhood, that turned into, you know, quite an event. I basically spoke to the investigators which I probably shouldn`t have done, which again is kind of -- with what Dr. Murray did apparently day after which, you know, my lawyer has beaten me senseless for it -- for that, speaking, because as a physician, I mean, you go through all these years training and --
PINSKY: And you just want to do good. I know that every one of my peers, they all just want to help. That`s what I thought of my peers.
KAPOOR: Conrad Murray believed he can help Michael Jackson and believed he can do the right thing with him and the same thing with any difficult patient or patient that has multiple chronic issues, you have to sort of, you know, weigh everything that`s going on. So, the one thing I have to say for him is that, you know, be brave and, you know, kind of let the -- the system does work. I think the justice system, I`ve been through it --
PINSKY: I hope it does work. And you`re right. He`s going to have to -- we`ll wade through it with him. We`re going to be here. And I want to make -- thank you very much, Dr. Kapoor. I appreciate it.
And a few notes before we go. I`ve been a physician since 1984. And, of course, I`ve been an addictionologist for about 20 years. Studied human behavior, worked in a psychiatric hospital for over 20 years. I`ve treated some celebrity, not so celebrity. I`ve generally spent most of my life treating just regular folk. Now, the Michael Jackson case brings everything together for me. And I hope for you too, because it`s interesting, it`s newsworthy, and it focuses on really what is a problem of our time.
There are some very serious issues we`re going to be addressing as we bring the Conrad Murray trial to you. We`re going to talk about the doctor-patient relationship. Who has the power in that relationship, how it shared, who should, why does fame and money get in the way? And our attitudes towards drugs, prescriptions, and otherwise, our obsession with celebrities, and acknowledgement that there is hope for those who have say addiction and pain.
I believe we`ll be learning a lot as the Conrad Murray trial moves forward. I want to thank you all for watching me. See you next time.