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Warren Jeffs to Serve Life in Prison
Aired August 9, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
Convicted child rapist Warren Jeffs is going away for life and longer.
Good luck in the slammer, Warren.
Then, Michael Jackson confidential. Who was the real Jacko -- icon, addict, father, or freak?
Let`s go figure this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERIC NICHOLS, PROSECUTOR: This one person used his position of authority in the FLDS Church and corrupted and perverted not only that position of authority, but also the religious principles of his own community to victimize women, to victimize children, to break up families, and to satisfy his own personal appetites and desires.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Breaking news tonight. Warren Jeffs will be spending the rest of his life behind bars. Watch this and we`ll talk.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After deliberating for just 30 minutes, a Texas jury has sentenced Warren Jeffs to life in prison, plus 20 years.
NICHOLS: Justice has arrived for Warren Steve Jeffs, who we expect to spend the rest of his life in prison.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What I have witnessed here the past few weeks in San Angelo is not the persecution of a church, but it is in fact the prosecution of one man.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s 55 years old, so I think I can safely say he will never see the FLDS ranch again.
PINSKY: Life in prison, plus 20 years on top of that for raping a 12- year-old girl and sexually assaulting a 14-year-old. Prosecutors told Jeffs, who lived in a mansion his followers called "The Big House," they said, we too have a big house, and that is where you belong.
Now, this predator who abused countless girls and boys can no longer harm the girls who live -- and the children, for that matter -- who live in these FLDS compounds. But are they safe?
Will these sick sexual rituals with children live on through another leader? Or how about the previous victims who become victimizers? I mean, it`s entrenched in that culture.
What`s next for the more than 10,000 followers who consider Jeffs to be God`s spokesman on Earth?
Straight to my guests, former FLDS member Flora Jessop; correspondent for "In Session" on truTV, Beth Karas; and Deric Walpole. He is Warren Jeffs` defense attorneys.
Deric, permit -- if you`ll excuse me, I talk to a lot of defense attorneys these days, back even since the Casey Anthony case. And I keep asking the same question. How do you go to sleep at night when you defend a guy like this?
DERIC WALPOLE, WARREN JEFFS` DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know what? It`s easy, because I`m not really necessarily just defending a man. I`m defending the laws, I`m defending the Constitution.
And I don`t have a problem with that at all. The rules have to be followed, and I`m there to ensure that they are followed. And I don`t have a problem with that at all.
PINSKY: Deric, can you tell me what Mr. Jeffs` reaction was to the sentencing?
WALPOLE: I didn`t discern any reaction at all.
PINSKY: Let me ask you this. And this may be outside of your ability to answer given -- I know you have certain client privilege here that you may need to invoke. But the question I have, is this man ill? Is he going to get help also, or is he an evil person?
And you may not be able to answer either of these things. But can you answer?
WALPOLE: Whether he needs help?
PINSKY: Is he ill?
WALPOLE: You know what? I don`t think -- I`ve got this thing in my ear. I`m not sure I exactly heard the question right.
PINSKY: Well, the question was, is Warren -- it`s easy to look at him and go, oh, this man, he`s an evil, evil person. But is he ill? And if he`s ill, is he going to get help behind bars?
WALPOLE: You know what? I don`t have any idea.
WALPOLE: I don`t have any idea.
PINSKY: Jurors were shown photos of Jeffs that were a real contrast to the modest, conservative attire favored by the church he heads. The photos show him wearing a T-shirt with beer logos and a Guinness baseball cap.
Now, Beth, he and his followers dressed like they live on "Little House on the Prairie," and here he is sporting a beer cap and a T-shirt. What`s going on here?
BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, this is when he was on the lam, wanted by federal and state authorities. And he was changing his appearance.
His writings that the jury heard about yesterday included mentioning his intent to change his hair length, change his hair color, get his fake I.D., and put the Porsche in storage and get a rental car that`s cheaper as they drive among the poor people. This was a statement within his writings that the jury heard yesterday. This is as he was evading law enforcement.
He was also getting on to that ranch here in Texas. He managed to marry the 12-year-old and make that recording of sex with her, all while he was on the lam. In fact, he got arrested three weeks later.
PINSKY: Beth, I know you`ve got to hustle off here in just a second, but I have one more follow-up question for you. Do you think he is a danger from jail? Is there a possible other Jonestown afoot here? Could this guy instruct people to do dangerous things from jail?
KARAS: I think it`s going to be a very different experience now that he`s going to be in state prison. It`s my understanding that he`s brought there already, he`s already in a Texas state prison.
Whether he`s in protective custody or a general population, that will make the difference in whether or not he can affect anyone. But he`s a convicted child molester now. He is not going to fare well if he is in general population.
I don`t think he`s a danger to anyone in the prison. He`s going to have less access to a telephone than he had when he was in the jail system. He actually was in a privately run jail for a time here in Texas with a telephone in his cell. That`s not going to happen now that he`s in state prison.
PINSKY: OK. That`s reassuring a little bit.
Thanks, Beth. Thanks for joining us. I know you have to hustle off.
A photo featuring Warren Jeffs and his 16-year-old bride had the caption "Pure innocence, pure obedience, pure heavenly happiness." There it is. How quaint.
Twelve defendants connected to the FLDS have been indicted on sexual assault of children, bigamy, other charges. Eight have been sentenced to prison. The other four defendants are awaiting trial.
Now, Flora, this behavior that we`ve been talking about for all these days here -- and by the way, before I introduce Flora, thank you for being in the studio with us. It`s great to see you and --
FLORA JESSOP, FMR. FLDS MEMBER: Thank you for having me. It`s great to be here.
PINSKY: Yes, and see you doing so well, frankly, and to be a survivor of all this. And now being of service to people trying to get out.
And that is really to my point for my viewers, is I hope you`re getting at home how important this all is to all of us. And there`s two big picture items here I hope people will get.
One is, this community is sort of a model for me for the kinds of abuse that goes on in families all over the country. This just happens to be a very dramatic, kind of peculiar version of every family that has an abusive family member or somebody who`s running -- not appreciating the rights of the other family members, has their own little Warren Jeffs prophets in their own home, whether it`s the mother or the father, for that matter.
PINSKY: And secondly, the lost boys. Some of the males that are being tossed out of this FLDS community are dangerous. And they are all heading into our community.
And you`ve told me, Flora, that you feel they are going to go out and abuse other kids. And people need to be aware of this.
JESSOP: Well, yes. Part of the problem is, is when you have a system of abuse the way these children are taught, and you have no therapy for them once they`re out of the situation, their ideology is women don`t have a voice, so women must serve me. So what they`re doing is coming out in our neighborhoods, next to our schools, next to our children, and continuing to perpetuate those ideologies on our children.
PINSKY: Well, and of course, it`s the case that somebody has been severely sexually abused and beaten, as these boys have, as you`ve reported, at least, allegedly, that they become victimizers. And that just happens. And they have been cast out and abandoned, and they have no structure in their life and no treatment.
There`s no way to get them treatment, is there?
JESSOP: You know, we`ve been getting treatment for the women and children that I`ve been helping for many years through an organization in Arizona called Defenders of Children. They`ve been financing attorneys for these women and children, therapy. So, through that one organization in Arizona who we tried to set up an office in Colorado City, and they were -- the FLDS and the Mojave County government made sure that we couldn`t succeed in that and kicked us out of there.
PINSKY: Somewhere in here, Flora, I`ve got to say there`s a feeling of a scandal. The scandal is that this has been going on for a long time, no one`s done anything. You`re trying to help the ones that are escaping. No one`s doing anything.
Deric, I want to go back out to you very quickly. Are you aware of anyone trying to do anything to help these communities now that they are leaderless? Are you involved in any of that?
WALPOLE: Dr. Drew, I`ve got to tell you, I didn`t know anything about this until July the 20th. I came out here on the 21st, and I had five days to get ready to start trying this case.
So, I mean, I walked into it, I grabbed as many of the books as I could. I tried to get up to speed as fast as I could, and tried to do the best I could which, for the most part, I didn`t get to do much at all except for sit there and watch and try to be ready to jump at a minute`s notice. So, no, I mean, as far --
PINSKY: Let me ask one more quick question. Is this case now closed, or is this up for appeal?
WALPOLE: Well, here`s -- the rules are -- and I don`t have any idea what the future holds for Mr. Jeffs in this regard. I really don`t.
I was withdrawn from the case today, as was Mr. Silverman (ph) and Ms. DeToto (ph). And he was advised of his appellate deadlines and his motion for new trial, which is within 30 days from the date of sentencing. And I have no idea what will happen. I really don`t.
I know that appeals have benefited him in the past and they may benefit him in the future. But I don`t have any knowledge as to what his plans are next as far as this particular case goes.
PINSKY: OK. Well, thank you.
Deric, I do appreciate you coming on the hot seat. I do. And I suspect --
PINSKY: -- that just based on what you`re saying, we are likely to see appeals, unfortunately.
But coming up -- thank you, Flora, as well -- who is Warren Jeffs? How did he get 10,000 people to believe he was God on Earth? And does he really believe he`s the prophet, or is he just taking advantage of that consciously and he`s just a child predator manipulating people?
Plus, I`ll talk to a man who says Jeffs raped him when he was just 5 years old.
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRENT JEFFS, WARREN JEFFS` NEPHEW: This day has come. And I cannot tell you how joyous I am to finally see this man put where he belongs.
I was a victim of him, but now I can stand 10 feet tall and say, you are where you belong. And I`m able to let go of all this and move on with my life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIE JESSOP, FMR. FLDS SPOKESPERSON: I believe that Mr. Jeffs ought to be judged on his own actions, and so should everyone else. You want him to be good so bad, that you disregard the little things that should have been a telltale, that there`s a crisis going on behind the scenes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Indeed. And tonight he got life in prison.
But who is Warren Jeffs? Why does he preach that children should be raped by older men? Could something have happened to Jeffs to cause this sick behavior when he was a child?
Well, here`s what we found out.
Jeffs took over as leader of the FLDS after his dad, Rulon Jeffs, died. His dad, 33 sons.
So why Warren? Jeffs` dad was survived by 20 or so wives. Lost count somewhere. And of course Warren Jeffs immediately asserted his power by marrying all but two of his dad`s widows.
He did not marry his own mother, though I wouldn`t put that past him. Marrying his father`s wives is apparently what solidified his power.
Joining me now is Brent Jeffs, Warren Jeffs` nephew, who testified that his uncle had raped him when he was just 5.
And by the way, Brent, thank you for stepping forward. That is very courageous. I understand how difficult that is.
Flora Jessop, who is also here, was also commenting how courageous that is.
Also, I`ve got Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott, who is my personal hero for having taken this whole thing on.
Huzzah, as I always say to you, the attorney general.
And, of course, Flora Jessop. She, of course is our former FLDS member back with us.
Flora, what do we know about Warren Jeffs` childhood that could explain some of this? Or do you even want to think that way?
JESSOP: You know, I think it`s very disingenuous to abuse survivors when we continually say that predators were victims themselves, because even if they were victims, when they turned -- crossed the line and turned into a predator, it takes away from the victims they leave behind. It diminishes their pain, to say but they were victims, too. And so I don`t even want to go there.
JESSOP: You know, I think who`s important here are the many lives that he left behind. I think he got life just like he convicted all of his victims to.
PINSKY: Fair enough. I would say that as a doctor, we try to help everybody, so we kind of think that way. But I get what you`re saying. I get what you`re saying.
And you also wanted to see a congratulations to Brent.
JESSOP: You know, Brent is just amazingly strong for standing up. It`s extremely difficult for young men to come forward when they`re abused. And I think Brent`s a hero.
PINSKY: Tell the audience what you told me just before we went on the air here about what it`s like to describe abuse.
JESSOP: You know, when you try to describe to people what abuse is, it`s like trying to describe what salt tastes like. It`s extremely difficult to tell people what it does to you as a victim. And I think Brent`s done an amazing job of telling people what salt tastes like.
PINSKY: And victims tend to blame themselves, too, and to take --
JESSOP: Oh, yes.
PINSKY: -- to forgive yourself for having allowed or whatever the fantasy is.
Now, Warren Jeffs` nephew -- this is Brent, we were just looking at there -- also says he was abused by Jeffs, of course. And he gave very traumatic testimony during the penalty phase and said his Uncle Warren raped him when he was just 5 years old.
Brent, what is it he did? How many other boys were there? Can you tell us?
JEFFS: Well, for me -- I don`t know for other boys what he`s done to them. But for me, when I was a little boy, 5 years old, just attending the regular Sunday church like I do every time, this time it was different.
This time, he decided to take me down the hall and victimize and rape me in the bathroom. And from then on, he felt like that was something that he could get away with, with me. And he got off on it.
He enjoyed it. And it`s pretty scary to think of how many other kids he`s done this to and how many other boys and girls he`s done this to. And it`s pretty -- it`s very scary to think about.
PINSKY: Well, Warren Jeffs father`s first wife reportedly left him when he wanted to lead a life of polygamy. Now, she took their two sons with her.
Rulon Jeffs later had 33 sons who grew up in the FLDS. Warren was one of them.
Brent, you just told us what Jeffs was up to. Do you think if he was one of the kids taken out of the polygamist compound, he still would become a child molester?
JEFFS: You know, it`s really hard to say, but I think those tendencies were always there for him. I think at a very young age, for some reason or another, those tendencies were there, and he took those upon him. And what started as a very small thing when he was young turned into something that was extremely huge as he got older and older and gained power and control over this church.
PINSKY: And thank you, Brent. Very courageous.
And let`s be clear. This man, not a prophet. Rather, a coward who gained control and began sexually abusing young girls, and allowing others to do the same thing.
Now, an FBI agent testified that fathers who gave their young daughters to Jeffs, their prophet, were rewarded with young brides of their own. How lovely of him.
Now, Greg Abbott, Texas attorney general -- again, my hero for having taken this all on. What do we do next? We`ve got a whole community now that have lots of victims and sort of an endemic problem.
Please help my viewers and myself take this thing to the next level. I mean, I hope people understand that this does affect them. This is going on in their communities. And to me, it has the feel of a scandal that our legislators aren`t doing something about this.
GREG ABBOTT, TEXAS ATTORNEY GENERAL: Right. Dr. Drew, two key points.
First, if I could answer an earlier question about whether or not Mr. Jeffs is some kind of victim himself, remember some evidence that came out in the punishment phase that said if the world knew what he had done, they would hang him from the highest tree. He knew exactly what he was doing. He did it by choice. And he got the punishment he deserved.
Secondly, with regard to, where do we go from here, people need to understand this isn`t a singular crime like, let`s say, the Casey Anthony situation. This is a massive, multi-generational, multi-decade issue that we`ve been trying to pull the curtain down from around to expose to the entire world.
It`s going to take a while to complete the investigation and to complete the prosecution. We have taken out the leader now in Warren Jeffs. We`ve prosecuted eight other people. But there`s so much more to go.
PINSKY: Thank you to my panel.
Your calls and comments are next.
PINSKY: You`ve got a lot to say about Warren Jeffs, so let`s get to it.
First, a Facebook question from Nancy in Virginia. She says, "Since Jeffs is facing life in prison, and given his sociopathic personality" -- which I agree with -- "should the state move into or at least monitor his FLDS followers?"
And that is a key question. That`s what I was just asking the attorney general, is what do we do next?
And I would tell you this. The attorney general has suggested that we call the legislators that are responsible in those communities where this is going on, or perhaps even your own legislator if you`re not just to ask them to look into this, because to me, this whole thing has the feeling of scandal to it.
Why it has been allowed to go on for so long is unthinkable. And I think I`m holding legislators somewhat accountable for this, looking the other way. Not OK.
Sabrina in Wisconsin is on the line.
Go ahead, Sabrina.
SABRINA, WISCONSIN: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Sabrina.
SABRINA: If help is offered to the FLDS family, are their beliefs so strong that they will not see the help as a positive?
PINSKY: Well, that is our gravest concern, is not only as not as a positive, but they`ve been told to fight to the death or they`re going to go to hell if they don`t follow their prophet. I mean, you just can imagine the conflicted feelings they`re having. And it`s going to be a dicey, dicey procedure to get in there and help them get better.
I don`t know what the answer is. I mean, to me, I would take an army of social service personnel and try to move in there or do something.
Part of it will be infiltrating in some consistent, ongoing fashion. But I don`t see any movement in that direction yet. So please call your legislator.
Lisa on Facebook says -- we`re going to switch gears here a little bit and talk about Propofol. Michael Jackson, that`s of course what killed him.
"Propofol does not produce REM sleep." She is right about that. "The margin of error with Propofol is very slim." Not quite so true.
She asked, "Murder? Maybe. Malpractice? Absolutely."
Well, we`re going to be getting into that very issue next. And believe me, that`s not a question that I can -- believe it or not, it`s a very dicey, complex question.
In the basic answer I have here is that Propofol should never been prescribed, be used outside of a highly, highly monitored setting. That by itself is already so outrageous, that anything else that follows is sort of epilogue. But we`ll be talking a lot more about that over the upcoming weeks.
Another Facebook question. Maureen asks, "Dr. Drew, can you help us understand why some men lust for young girls and babies?"
I can only say this -- I choke on that when I hear it. It`s so disgusting. And the pain that`s inflicted in other people.
But the following is usually the case, that the people that have those kinds of attractions usually themselves were sexually abused as a young age. And so that`s what sort of wires that in.
Mary Anne writes, "What can we do as a society to stop the abuse of prescription drugs?"
Man, if you could answer that question in 10 or 15 seconds, please give me a call. It`s a huge issue. I think awareness, having these kinds of conversations is the big deal.
Just because something is prescribed doesn`t mean it is safe. In my world right now, my users of illicit drugs, heroin addicts, cocaine addicts, when they die they`re usually dying because of prescription drugs. They are dangerous. Just because they`re prescribed by a doctor does not mean they are necessarily safe.
And if you have a history of addiction, or you`re an addict and you`re using prescription drugs, you`re in danger. Bottom line.
Up next, the days and hours leading up to Michael Jackson`s death. What kind of shape was he in? And what kind of drugs was he taking? We`re going to hear from insiders who have the facts when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): The man who was supposed to take care of Michael Jackson`s health now charged with causing his death. Dr. Conrad Murray, personal physician to the King of Pop. Did Murray administer the lethal dose of heavy anesthetic that killed him? Did Michael, as the defense claims, do it himself?
Or was Murray just a pawn in a murder conspiracy as some have said? What happened in those final hours? I`m getting the details from the people closest to the pop legend.
(SINGING) All I want to say is that they don`t really care about us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): That footage was from 2009 as Michael Jackson rehearsed for a 50 concert tour in London. Just two days later, the iconic entertainer was gone. Tonight, we`re just 30 days away from jury selection in a trial that will determine if Jackson`s doctor, Dr. Conrad Murray, will be found guilty of involuntary manslaughter in the death of the king of pop. Los Angeles coroner ruled that a surgical anesthetic called propofol killed the 50-year-old Jackson, but who injected the deadly dose?
The state says Conrad Murray did. The defense claims Jackson was a, quote, "desperate man," unquote, who injected himself with a fatal dose of Propofol. Now, here at HLN, it`s a trial we`re going to cover every step of the way, and we`re going to work together. We`ve got our experts in here and our commentators. We`re trying to figure out why Michael Jackson died, really what happened.
Of course, you can hear my perspective. It`s a perspective you don`t get anywhere else, so hopefully, we`ll help you figure this out. Watch this tape of Michael Jackson.
PINSKY: America fell in love with Michael Jackson at first sight. The adorable five-year-old became the biggest star the world had ever seen. Then, things got strange, then weird, then disturbing. Jackson`s hair caught fire while he was filming a Pepsi commercial. The searing pain may have led to a drug habit. Then, odd behavior, dozens of surgeries, even reports he bleached his skin.
By the time of his child molestation trial, he`d aged before our eyes, sometimes, with a mask to hide the gaping hole that used to be his nose. A man of extremes, he took it one final fatal step further.
DR. DEEPAK CHOPRA, MICHAEL JACKSON`S FRIEND, ADVISOR: He also mentioned that, you know, Deepak, there`s thing that you can take that takes you to the valley of death and then brings you just back from there.
PINSKY: On his last night, propofol dropped Michael Jackson in that valley and left him there forever.
PINSKY: Joining me now is Brian Oxman. He has known the Jackson Family for 24 years and was part of the defense team that represented Michael in his 2005 child molestation trial. Damon Elliot, a friend of Michael Jackson since childhood. He`s also a music producer, and he is the son of recording artist, Dionne Warwick. Deepak Chopra is here. Now, Deepak was a friend and adviser to Michael Jackson. Though, their relationship became distant because Deepak denied Michael Jackson`s request for narcotics.
Now, Brian, you were in the E.R. the day that -- actually in the waiting room with the family. Can you describe what went down that day in the emergency room? You knew that something had happened to Michael. You went with the family. And what`d you see?
BRIAN OXMAN, JACKSON FAMILY FRIEND FOR 24 YEARS: Got a call from Randy Jackson saying that got to go to the hospital, Brian. Michael`s taken to the hospital. What`s the matter, Randy? What happened? He says, I don`t know, Brian. It`s bad. I got on the three-way. I got to UCLA Medical Center, the Ronald Reagan Hospital there. When I got there, they weren`t there yet.
Randy, then, walked in a few minutes later, and he was just crying. He had tears running down his cheeks, and I hugged him. He didn`t say a word to me, and he broke away and went behind the curtain. And I saw that they were working on someone there. And then Jermaine came in, and I said, Jermaine. Jermaine came up and hugged me, and he was crying.
The tears were on my cheek. And then I turned around and I saw La Toya Jackson slumped to the floor. That lady never does that. She is such a prim and proper young woman. I knew Michael was dead.
PINSKY: Yes. Wow. Now, did he use propofol before to your knowledge? Is there a history of this?
OXMAN: Yes. He used propofol. There were other doctors who administered it to him. Conrad Murray administered it to him. And when I was at that emergency room, I didn`t know who this man was, standing in the corner, a very well-dressed, tall African-American man --
PINSKY: In the waiting room with the family.
OXMAN: In the waiting room with them. And I went up and I shook his hand and his hand was wet and cold, and he had this blank stare. And I introduced myself, and this is the man who gave him propofol. He had nothing to say. He didn`t say his name. Nothing. Later that night, I recognized that it was Conrad Murray on the news. And I said oh, my goodness. This is the man who administered propofol to Michael Jackson virtually every night for six weeks.
PINSKY: Wow. I mean, that`s a dramatic, dramatic and scary sort of moment. I mean, you know, I believe that Conrad Murray intended to do the right thing. I don`t think he was a murderer, but, boy, he knew at that point, I`m sure, that he was in a truckload of trouble.
OXMAN: You have a family who is very angry not just at Conrad Murray. We looked at this and we say he is half responsible. But there are other people who are around Michael, the concert promoters, the people who paid.
PINSKY: That`s what I want to talk about. Whether this was -- and whether Conrad is really just sort of set up to be the fall guy. Now, I want to ask when was Michael Jackson introduced to painkillers. Many reports say it happened during the shooting of this Pepsi commercial in 1984 when Jackson`s face and hair caught on fire after pyrotechnics were set of too early. Now, Damon, as a life long friend, when did you become aware that something was up with his substance use?
DAMON ELLIOTT, MICHAEL JACKSON`S CHILDHOOD FRIEND: Well, you know, it`s funny. I can`t even tell you I really ever thought anything was up, to be honest with you.
ELLIOTT: Yes, because, you know, when we were around him, it wasn`t like he was ever just super lethargic.
PINSKY: But we all saw him change over the years, you know? He, particularly by the time of that child molestation trial, he was a different man in many, many respects.
PINSKY: Weren`t you sort of seeing that --
ELLIOTT: Well, I was concerned more for -- during that trial, I was concerned more for his innocence to be known more than anything.
PINSKY: Before the trial even, we all saw that, but didn`t you around them see the change?
ELLIOTT: What you see is what lot of times what the press wants to portray, to be honest with you. When I`m in a real situation with somebody, his energy level was -- Michael`s very quiet. Very to himself. The whole family is. Jermaine. I know you probably met Jermaine and the other brothers. They`re all soft spoken. They`re all very mellow, you know? So, there was never a time when I was really saying wow, he`s really like jacked up or something.
PINSKY: Well, but not even jacked up. I mean, you first became his friend at what age?
ELLIOTT: When I was a child, (INAUDIBLE) with the house.
PINSKY: You were like five years old?
ELLIOTT: Probably younger than that. I mean, since I was born, we were going over to the Jackson family house.
PINSKY: He`s how many years older than you?
ELLIOTT: Well, I`m 38. He was 50.
PINSKY: So, he`s like 12. When you`re five, he`s 17 or something?
ELLIOTT: Sure. Yes. Sure.
PINSKY: And the relationship, I mean, you must have -- I have questions more as we go along. You must have seen stuff happening -- I don`t know what that`s all about, maybe not.
ELLIOTT: No, I mean, listen, eccentric, yes. But I think we are all a bit eccentric in this business.
ELLIOTT: So, that yes, but saying was he ever really gone on drugs or anything? I honestly can tell you I never really had a moment.
PINSKY: All right. Correspondent Ted Rowlands from CNN, our sister network, has allowed us exclusive access into Conrad Murray`s medical clinic where we talked -- where they talked to some of Dr. Murray`s patients. You want to watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Dr. Conrad Murray, not in a courtroom, but in a cardiology clinic seeing patients who are eager to stand up for the man accused of killing Michael Jackson. Gerry Cause says Dr. Murray saved his life after a heart attack ten years ago. He now drives 160 miles nearly six hours round trip to see him.
GERRY CAUSE, PATIENT OF DR. MURRAY: He`s the most compassionate man. He has patience better than any doctor I`ve ever been to. He will take time with you as much time as it takes.
HUGH CRANDELL, PATIENT OF DR. MURRAY: I know for a fact just knowing the man, he did everything possible to keep Michael Jackson alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Deepak, help me out here. You know, here`s a cardiologist, well trained, well thought of who patients loved him. The outcomes are good. He`s practicing as a cardiologist. He gets sucked into this relationship with Michael Jackson. Help my viewers understand what happened, what went wrong in that doctor/patient relationship.
CHOPRA: First of all, you know, as I was listening to the program right now, I recall visiting Michael when he was in Romania and performing during, I think, it was the dangerous tour. And there were approximately 300, 400, possibly half a million people, for the show. And Michael was impeccable. The whole city was on fire. I went to visit him in his room after that, and all he was doing was drinking sparkling water and rested and wanted to meditate.
So, I`ve seen Michael in that stage as well. But then, after things got bad, Michael became almost a very demanding, impulsive, spoiled person, which is very common in these situations. I can understand that Dr. Murray was one of the enablers as I just heard you, I was realizing that I don`t think Dr. Murray intended to kill him, but he was responsible. He shouldn`t have been giving a drug illegally in an illegal location.
And that to -- you know, an intravenous drug that should be administered in a hospital where you have resources to intuition (ph) and all the other things. Furthermore, this is a drug that should only be given by anesthesiologists. So, what went wrong is so many things. There are so many questions here. Questions of social justice, questions of enabling doctors, enabling providers, enabling people surrounding him as well. Nobody having the guts to say no.
And Michael, who was trying his best, actually, he was a very tortured soul as you can see from the tape we saw. He was ready to go perform. He was ready to go on the tour. Michael did not expect to die. That I can tell you. He was doing his usual thing. And then, what happened is he got a little more than he should have gotten or he shouldn`t have gotten any at all.
PINSKY: Thanks, Deepak. I think it`s really hard for viewers to understand. You and I understand what it is being that doctor/patient relationship, but people who never experienced that have difficulty understanding how somebody like Conrad Murray --
CHOPRA: It`s very difficult. Yes.
PINSKY: It`s very difficult for people to understand. And we`re going to have to sort of revisit it and revisit it and pick it apart, because it`s nefarious. It`s nefarious. He made a couple of missteps and ended up in a place where it was bad, bad outcome for everybody. Now, there are still some who claim -- go ahead Deepak. Last word.
CHOPRA: I was saying, you know, it becomes a codependent relationship. You know, and everybody starts to become interdependent on each other. And it`s a very pathological, almost a psychotic state in which everybody falls in not realizing that they`re in that state.
PINSKY: I completely agree with you. And celebrities seem to be particularly prone to pulling certain doctors into that kind of a context. And there are some who still claim Michael Jackson`s death was no accident. They say he was murdered and that he was worth more dead than alive. We`re going to talk about the conspiracy theory to kill Michael Jackson after this quick break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LA TOYA JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S SISTER: They intended to harm him simply because they knew that Michael was worth more dead than alive. They knew.
PINSKY: How would they get their hands on that?
LA TOYA JACKSON: He told me repeatedly. La Toya, they`re going to kill me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Well, some of Michael Jackson`s family claim he was the target of a murder plot. That it was a conspiracy to kill the King of Pop because he was worth more dead than alive. He was contracted to 50 concerts for his upcoming tour, and according to his father, the company behind the tour feared he would not be able to finish, and they would be left with the bill. But if he were dead, they could profit from the DVD sales of "This Is It."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S FATHER: I know that I`m looking for justice for my son. And to me, he`s just the fall guy. There`s other people, I think, involved with this whole thing.
LARRY KING, CNN ANCHOR: Why do you believe, Joe, that other people were involved in your son`s death? Why do you believe that?
JOE JACKSON: Who`s paying Dr. Murray? Michael`s not paying him because he`s not here. Who`s paying all these other people that`s involved? Michael said himself that he would be killed. He told his mother that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And back with us is Brian Oxman who has known the Jackson family for 24 years and was part of the defense team that represented Michael in his 2005 child molestation trial. Deepak Chopra, friend and adviser to Michael Jackson, and Dr. Sandeep Kapoor who was Anna Nicole Smith`s doctor when she died. Start out with you, Brian. Joe Jackson, your client, you heard him say Conrad Murray is just a fall guy. What is this bigger plot that the Jackson Family keeps referring to?
OXMAN: It is all the people who surrounded Michael, Dr. Drew. The people are responsible. Conrad Murray only bears only about half the responsibility. I look at this. They wanted Michael to rehearse, and so, all these drugs were being administered in order to make sure he was to get to rehearsals. Those shows that you see with "This Is It," two days are all they`ve had, the 23rd and the 24th of June. He didn`t go to rehearsals, otherwise.
I look at it as if this were a racehorse. Get that racehorse out on the track, says the owner, but the racehorse is hurt, has a broken vertebrae in their back. Get him out there, says to the trainer. Give him what you have to give him. If this were the racing commission in California, the owner would have been sanctioned. The trainer would have been sanctioned, and the veterinarian who gave the drugs would have been sanctioned. In this case, only Conrad Murray is bearing the burden.
PINSKY: We`re talking about a human being here.
OXMAN: That`s right.
PINSKY: On the night before he died, Michael did a full run through of his comeback show, "This Is It", which was videotaped for a movie and DVD. And by the way, it`s excellent. I watched the whole thing. It was touching and really good. Michael was dancing and training every day.
He said he was getting the rest he needed. He seemed enthusiastic and ready for his performances. Deepak, does this sound like a guy who feared for his life? That there was a conspiracy out to get him?
CHOPRA: I don`t think so. I think he was dependent on drugs. He was also getting them from various sources. Some of them knew about the others` prescriptions, some of them don`t. It`s a very common theme. As you know, Dr. Drew, that patients can get the same drug from many different sources, and the pharmacist still fills them. They`re for the same patient, but there are many doctors.
There`s a whole (INAUDIBLE) enabling doctors there. And, you know, it`s very difficult to deal with patients like Michael. They`re very demanding. They`re very powerful. They`re very rich. And I don`t think it was a conspiracy to murder him. I think it was a conspiracy of everything going wrong.
PINSKY: Well, it`s interesting you bring up the doctors, because I`m going to talk about the doctors and the patients next and the relationship. Michael Jackson is one of many celebrities who battled addiction and lost, Corey Haim, Anna Nicole Smith, Heath Ledger, and most recently, of course, Amy Winehouse. They`re all celebrities who died too soon. Amy Winehouse, these are all suspected from complications related to, perhaps, overdose.
Sandeep Kapoor was Anna Nicole Smith`s doctor, and you faced charges contributing to her death, which, of course, you were acquitted, but, did you fear losing -- I know you had kind of a friendship with her that you say was crossing the line and that is. And my question is, did that friendship make it more difficult to say no? You know what I mean? Like having that you`ve actually cared about her as a friend and that`s kind of a boundary problem. And now, it`s actually how do you say no to that?
SANDEEP KAPUR, M.D., ANNA NICOLE SMITH`S PHYSICIAN: Well, I mean, again, I think the friend thing goes beyond. I mean, all patients that you have, I mean, you become intimately in an intimate relationship, especially when you`re treating somebody from multiple chronic medical conditions over years. So, that`s a -- it`s a hard word to say.
Am I friends with all my patients? I would assume so if they`re telling me their intimate details of their lives. So, in a sense, the trust that you develop between a patient and a doctor is fundamentally important. And, by no means, do you give in to unreasonable demands, and you`re the physician in the situation.
PINSKY: But it`s hard sometimes. Especially when celebrities -- people miss this part -- celebrities get threatening. I`m going to destroy you. You were such a great doctor one time, and I loved you, and now you - -
KAPUR: Well, I got swore at and fired, and eventually, she ended up leaving the country. So, I wasn`t taking care of her, but you have to -- I mean, I have 2,000 other patients to think about and also a family and a life.
KAPUR: And so, for me, it was different. It was basically no is what I said a lot.
PINSKY: We have to take a break. We`ll be right back.
PINSKY: Well, celebrities are pretty used to getting what they want when they want. They`re used to being taken care of, and they have sort of an entourage of people that will say yes. Sandeep Kapoor, Anna Nicole Smith`s doctor, you know firsthand how celebrities get doted on. People are constantly saying yes to them.
We talked earlier about how it`s hard to say no to them the way they sort of demand, and Dr. Deepak Chopra mentioned this, too, the demanding quality that was going on. Did the people around the celebrity also further try to manipulate and exert influence on physicians, do you think, to get the celebrity what they want?
KAPUR: Yes. I think there are people, you know, close to them that would definitely have an influence -- try to influence calling, you know, for prescriptions or try to get things, you know, because they`re the assistant or whatever for that celebrity. And, you know, I say the same thing. If someone calls in for a cough or cold, I want to talk to the person who`s having that problem. So, it is a big problem. There`s a whole -- you`ve got to weave through all that.
PINSKY: Were you aware of them going -- actually to the extent of fraud where they just call in and say, hey, I`m Anna, I need my methadone, whatever.
KAPUR: Well, it didn`t happen to that extent, but I`m sure it does happen. I mean, the other key is the pharmacies. I mean, pharmacies, we don`t have much control over what gets prescribed to pharmacies. Remember, a lot of times, we`re physicians. We will write the prescriptions, and there are refills available.
So, there`s a whole missing element here and that`s true in the case of Michael Jackson where there`s pharmacies that may have also been giving prescriptions without really having the correct authorization to do so.
PINSKY: Well, you know, it`s an interesting question there. I think what you`re referring to is multiple physicians giving, you know, multiple prescriptions, but where did he get something like propofol? I mean, that`s -- to me, doesn`t that stun you, the propofol outside the hospital?
KAPUR: I mean, I have (ph) a private physician don`t believe that I should be able to call up and say, hey, can I have a whole crate of propofol. For what reason? I mean, am I a surgical clinic? Am I an operating room? I mean, I think there`s got to be some culpability on the part of the pharmacy to understand before you giving this to and for what purpose?
PINSKY: And finally, in the last minute remaining, I wonder if you could give my viewers some insight into what Dr. Murray is experiencing. You`ve been in that scrutiny. You`ve had to live through those court cases. You told me yesterday that when they came and got you, your parents were held at gunpoint which is wild. What is Dr. Murray going through?
KAPUR: Well, I think Dr. Murray is probably feeling a lot of fear, a lot of anxiety, because it`s sort of like the whole world is against him. In a way, he`s sort of out there on a ledge as a scapegoat kind of for, you know, someone to be held accountable -- they need to have someone held accountable for Michael Jackson`s death.
And I think that it`s a little bit scary in a sense that he`s out there by himself. He has a good team of lawyers. And I think it`s just getting it started for him probably is the main thing that he needs to really overcome.
PINSKY: The idea of scapegoat is interesting. Almost -- we need a human sacrifice before we`re going to be happy. Thank you for joining me.
And before we go, now, we know Warren Jeffs will spend the rest of his life in prison. Question is, think about the fact that we are satisfied with that. That seems to be what we wanted. We think that is justice, right? A convicted rapist is getting what`s coming to him. We feel good about that? Why do we feel so bad about the verdict in Casey Anthony case? Is this simply a feeling of what`s right and what`s wrong?
Is that just in us emotionally or is there something more fundamental that has been violated by that case? Right and wrong would exist out here somewhere. True right and wrong as an abstract idea has been violated by that case. Think about that on this, Caylee Anthony`s sixth birthday. Food for thought. Thank you for watching. We`ll see you next time.