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ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL
Hunt for Missing Woman in Aruba Continues
Aired August 11, 2011 - 19:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, horror stories emerging about the prime suspect in the disappearance of another beautiful American woman in Aruba.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was erratic. He was a little violent. He was, let`s say, quite physically aggressive, inappropriately.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Why did Gary Giordano try to flee Aruba after his companion, Robyn Gardner disappeared? I`ll talk to the missing woman`s distraught boyfriend.
And another crazy shocker in the Casey Anthony case.
CASEY ANTHONY, ACQUITTED OF MURDER: Can someone let me -- come on!
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: Casey, hold on, sweetheart. Settle down, baby.
CASEY ANTHONY: Nobody is letting me speak.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Why has it taken three years for Florida`s Child Services to suddenly now announce Casey failed to protect little Caylee from harm, resulting in the child`s death? Hello, her trial is over. Tonight, in an ISSUES exclusive, we`ll analyze this late development with Lindsay Lohan`s famous attorney, Shawn Holley.
Plus, stunning new news: most Americans don`t have 1,000 bucks saved up in case they`re hit with an emergency. Tonight on ISSUES, the inside story you`ll only get here.
And we`re taking your calls.
ISSUES starts now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It was on this very spot August 2 that Gary Giordano -- he is the American that`s now in custody -- said they were snorkeling late in the afternoon, and that at one point they became separated, he came ashore, and she apparently, did not.
MICHAEL LOPEZ, ATTORNEY: They knew each other for a couple years already as friends. They met each other, I think, on a dating site.
SAVIDGE: Authorities are going through a number of things, first of all the couple`s rental car, to see if there`s forensic evidence there to be claimed, and they`re also going through a number of smartphones, maybe a laptop.
MIKE GALANOS, HLN ANCHOR: Apparently, this guy would go online, get to know women in their late 40s, good shape, attractive women. After he would meet them online, they would meet in person a couple times, go back to his house and have consensual sex. But what they didn`t know is what that woman was just talking about, they were being videotaped and audiotaped having sex.
RICHARD FORESTER, ROBYN`S BOYFRIEND: I just don`t think that she was snorkeling. I feel in my heart that something happened at this person`s hand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight shockers in the mysterious disappearance of a beautiful young American woman in Aruba.
Good evening, I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell coming to you live from New York City.
Robyn Gardner simply vanished more than a week ago. Tonight we`re learning very disturbing -- and I mean very disturbing -- new details about the man she flew to Aruba with.
Here he is. Take a good look at him: 50-year-old Gary Giordano. There he is, his head down, walking on the beach with Aruban police after Robyn vanished. What is he looking for in that sand? Huh? Giordano is under arrest tonight in Aruba. He`s being called the prime suspect in Robyn`s disappearance, but he has not been charged with any crime.
For now Giordano has lawyered up and is reportedly no longer cooperating, i.e. not talking. Giordano told police initially that Robyn vanished while they were snorkeling together, but Robyn`s boyfriend back home says no way. Here he is on "The Today Show."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FORESTER: She had posted a note, a message on my Facebook wall, saying, "This sucks." I didn`t get it until the morning when I got to work, and I questioned her. I didn`t know what it was, but she didn`t respond.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Search crews scoured the beaches and the water where Robyn supposedly vanished. They found absolutely nothing. Gary Giordano`s lawyer says his client is innocent and had no reason to kill Robyn Gardner, but even his own lawyer calls him a suspect. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LOPEZ: The last day of his stay in Aruba, specific as to justice if he -- if they needed for him to stay a little bit longer. They didn`t answer it, and on his way to the airport, and at the airport they detained him as a suspect for murder.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So is Gary Giordano`s past coming back to haunt him? Police sources says his past includes domestic violence charges, restraining orders, and allegations of secretly videotaped sex.
Women who have been talking about him have come forward, calling him creepy and scary. An ex-wife says he can`t control his anger. The FBI is now involved in this investigation, but at this point who is looking for Robyn? I`m taking your calls: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297.
And We are delighted -- very honored tonight to have Robyn`s boyfriend, Richard Forester, with us.
Richard, thank you so much for coming on. I know you`ve got to be going through your own private hell right now. Unfortunately, it`s public, because we`re all wondering what happened to Robyn.
Let`s -- let`s start at the beginning. Where did Robyn tell you she was going, and how did she end up in Aruba?
FORESTER: She had -- she had informed me she was going on a family vacation to -- to Orlando, to a timeshare that her family had. And then told me that the family surprised her, took her and the family to Aruba, and that it was no big deal. So I just took it for what it was worth, said, "Have a great time with your family." You know, I thought it was a little odd that it was that spontaneous. Because usually that doesn`t happen like that, but you know, there wasn`t a whole lot I could -- I could say or do about it at that point.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let`s listen to an anonymous woman talking about this Gary Giordano, because this is -- this is disturbing. Listen and we`ll ask you another question, Richard.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was erratic. He was a little violent, like one time I happened to touch his hair by accident, and he, like, literally, like, yanked my arm really hard. It was, like, really scary. And he was, let`s say quite physically aggressive, inappropriately. Apparently, he has cameras in his house where he videotapes people, and he has cameras all around his home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now apparently, you could see videotape here at Giordano`s million -dollar home, and you could see that there are video cameras. And now I can tell you that at least two women have said some very, very scary things about this man, saying that they`ve had real nightmare dates. And I want to go into a little bit more in a second, about what they allege, which involves secretly -- them being secretly being videotaped having sex, and the videos being posted on the Internet. Just a nightmare date.
So one woman said that this scary Giordano stalked her, videotaped sex with her secretly in his house, where apparently, he has cameras all over the place, posted the videos on the Web, and she had to get a restraining order.
Another woman says the same thing happened. The sex that she had was secretly videotaped. He posted the images on the Web, and then when she complained, he went around putting x-rated photos of her in her neighbor`s mailboxes.
So this is a horror story here unfolding.
And Richard, to get back to you, how did they meet? Because I understand they met on Match.com, but according to friends of Robyn, she was saying, well, they were just friends. I don`t say this to embarrass you. This has got to be difficult and awkward, but we`re trying to get to the -- to the heart of this so we can solve this. Did he perhaps say, "Well, let`s be friends. Let`s go to Aruba"? Did he offer her tickets? What do you know?
FORESTER: I -- I don`t know how they met. Just what I hear in the press. I was informed, as a matter of fact, that he was homosexual.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know, let me say this. He was previously married. He has a son. And he was on Match.com, and he`s dated all these women.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, it`s very possible that he could have said to her, "Oh, you can -- you can go with me to Aruba. No problem. I`m gay. I`m not going to bother you. We`re just going to be friends." And that was a ruse, because it would seem from his history that he is heterosexual...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... and has been involved in heterosexual relationships...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... where there were allegations of violence. So one of the problems with these dating sites is that people lie. People make stuff up about themselves. But he was on a dating site.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: He wasn`t on a "let`s make friends" site, or "I`m gay and I want to have a straight girlfriend as a friend" site. So it`s -- it`s kind of a disturbing dynamic.
Tell me a little bit about Robyn. She`s obviously beautiful. I understand she once modeled. She had recently been working for a dentist. Tell me about her.
FORESTER: Robyn loved -- loved life, loved to be happy, loved to have fun, loved to be active. She had a very loving, warm heart, very trusting, very positive outlook on life. The glass was always half full for her. You know, and if things were down, she would always find a way to realize that everything was going to work out, and everything was going to be OK. You know, sometimes she just would -- you know, if I was down, she would smile at me, and that would make everything better for me.
She was -- she to me was wonderful. We, of course, had our own, you know -- our issues just like couples do, but for the most part, we did quite well together.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tell me about the texts. She disappeared a week ago Tuesday, and she sent you a very disturbing text that said, "That sucks." And...
FORESTER: Yes, what that was -- what that was, that was actually on my Facebook wall. On Tuesday morning at 2:05 a.m., she wrote on my Facebook wall, "This sucks." I didn`t see it until I got to work in the morning, and I responded with a question mark, "Inbox me." I never got a response.
So I e-mailed her throughout the day. I was worried. I didn`t know what sucked. You know, does it suck that I`m not there with you? Does the weather suck? I don`t know.
But she didn`t -- she didn`t get to respond to me until later on in the day I got an inbox on my Facebook page saying, you know, "I love you. I care about you. We`ll talk and sort through this when I get back."
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that`s the last you heard of her?
FORESTER: And that was at about probably 3 or 4 p.m. on Tuesday. And that is the last that I heard from her.
The next day I noticed on her Gmail -- there`s a Gmail chat, a G-chat function, that if you`re online, there`s a green indicator light. There`s -- that means you`re active. If you`ve gone idle, it turns orange, and if you sign off, it`s gray. And it turned green, orange and gray throughout the day Wednesday and Thursday, so somebody was on her account.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I understand that, at this point, she was already reported missing.
FORESTER: That`s what I understood, too. I didn`t know she was missing at that time. I was -- I was instant messaging her saying, "Hello, I can see you`re online. What`s up? Are you mad? What`s going on?"
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Whoa. Wait, so you`re saying her -- her account is active after the time that Gary Giordano reports her missing?
FORESTER: Yes. And since then I`ve learned that he`s quite tech savvy, that he has the ability to use keystrokes and hack into multiple e- mail accounts and track old girlfriends` e-mail accounts and actually take on their persona and pretend like -- that he is them when he is e-mailing other people.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That is frightening.
FORESTER: He`s frightening.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Richard, stay right there. More on the other side. And we`re going to talk to Martin Savidge live in Aruba, and I`m taking your calls.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LOPEZ: My client has been detained as a suspect for a murder investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tonight Aruban authorities are once again investigating the disappearance of a beautiful young woman. Thirty-five- year-old Robyn Gardner was reported missing August 2.
FORESTER: I can`t -- I can`t even explain. It`s been six days. All I could imagine is that, while she was there, whatever was happening to her, she was screaming for me, and I wasn`t there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Where is Robyn Gardner? She disappeared in Aruba, of all places, the same island where Natalee Holloway vanished. Straight out to Martin Savidge, who is live in Aruba.
Martin, thank you for joining us tonight. What is the very latest? I`ve heard reports that the active search has been called off. Is this true?
SAVIDGE: Well, that`s right. It`s actually been called off for a while now. They do say that they continue to look, but it`s not the all- out search that they had for the first five days.
We did see a helicopters earlier today that was circling over this area, and they did focus on Baby Beach, which is the beach we`re standing on, the same beach where on August 2, the couple was said to be snorkeling, and of course, Gary Giordano says he comes out of the water and she does not, which triggered all of what we`re going through now.
There has been a very perceptible change in the investigation for the prosecution point of view. They say that Mr. Giordano is no longer cooperating with them. He`s probably been told by his lawyers to simply stop talking. But either way, the authorities are now saying that they are going to get tougher with their stance. They`re going to release his picture to the public. They`re going to identify him, because that is something they have not done down here.
And the idea is they want to generate is information. They want tips. They want witnesses. They want people who may have seen the couple. Maybe they were arguing, maybe they weren`t, but wanting to see where their movements were around the island in the days leading up to whatever happened here.
The other thing, they`ve reached out to the FBI. They`re now asking in the United States for searches to be conducted, and they want telephone records. A lot of this could go back and forth through the computer communication we know that was going on.
So the case is definitely taking a different turn from the prosecution`s point of view, a much edgier, harder turn.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, listen to this. Giordano`s attorney, Michael Lopez, claimed the water was rough on the day she disappeared. Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LOPEZ: Apparently, the sea got rough. He couldn`t stand it any more, and he signed to let`s go back. And when he reached shore, she was nowhere to be seen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, if you look at Martin Savidge, who is standing right there -- maybe we can go back to him for a second. Thank you for -- just to see the water behind you. This is Baby Beach. It`s so calm.
And I want to bring in Mike Brooks, because you could see Martin Savidge standing there at Baby Beach. This is like a lake. That`s why they call it Baby Beach. And here is the attorney claiming, "Oh, it was rough." I mean, we know, Mike, that an area that`s called Baby Beach is not going to have waves that`s going to carry somebody away.
MIKE BROOKS, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: No, but one of the things Marty has been reporting, when the daylight was out, that just over his shoulder and around the corner, when you get past the breakers, it does look rough. You could see it.
You know, is there a possibility she could have gotten caught in some kind of rip current and that kind of thing carried her out? Yes. But if you`re swimming with somebody, if I was swimming with somebody, I`d want to know -- I would have them right with me. I wouldn`t leave them in the water. His story just is not making any sense, Jane. None whatsoever.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And now Christina Jones, who is Robyn`s roommate, told "Good Morning America" she`s not a snorkeler. She`s a margarita girl. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTINA JONES, ROBYN`S ROOMMATE: My experience with Robyn, knowing her since I`ve known her, is that she`s not a swimmer and that she`s more of a lay by the pool, have a margarita kind of girl.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and again, so we have the discrepancies in the water issue. You`ve got her preferences, which would not be to go snorkeling, according to her friends. And then you`ve got this disturbing past with Giordano. One woman claims he stalked her, harassed her, offered to take her on a two-week cruise. She refused to go. And then he showed up outside her widow, wearing a deer mask, illuminating his face with a lighter. And this woman says, "He was just really creepy and scary. He scared the bejeezus out of me."
Casey Jordan, quickly, your thoughts?
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, it`s not just this woman. It`s also his ex-wife, who says that he threw their son to the ground. It`s also another woman, who says that he completely stalked her and harassed her.
And he had asked Robyn to go on a cruise with him earlier, as well, and she had declined. And her roommate, Christina Jones, had said that her reaction -- his reaction to being turned down, and -- literally made Robyn scared. And she discussed this with Christina.
So everything about this guy has red flags. Any man who`s going to secretly videotape sex with a woman is going to give somebody the creep factor. If it were a wonderful little loving tryst in the islands, that`s one thing. But when she wrote "It sucks," you know she wasn`t having a good time.
Now, on the other side we`re going to talk more to Richard Forester, Robyn`s boyfriend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was, like, following me or stalking me, and it freaked me out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The body goes outside the reef, and it goes deep immediately. You can see it there, and it goes under the water. The current will take it away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Where is Robyn Gardner? We are speaking with Robyn Gardner`s boyfriend, Richard Forester, who joins us. His girlfriend, Robyn, is missing in Aruba, last seen with this man who has a very disturbing past.
And I`ve got to say that the lawyer is saying, "Hey, well, maybe her body is outside the reef and we`ll never find it." Does that -- I find that disturbing, that Gary Giordano`s lawyer is suggesting that maybe her body is gone.
FORESTER: I can`t hear.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Richard, can you hear me at all?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: No? OK. You can`t hear me.
FORESTER: No. I can hear you, but ...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that`s OK, just listen to me -- and if you can answer my question -- I find it just disturbing that the attorney for this man, Gary Giordano, is suggesting that maybe your girlfriend`s body is gone in the ocean somewhere?
FORESTER: Yes, that`s kind of disgusting to me, that they would just assume that, especially coming with what I hear about Baby Bay. I don`t see how that`s possible. I know when she was younger, she was a -- she was a strong swimmer, but I can`t understand how it would just be gone.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re going to go to a phone call here, see if the caller has some insights. Trenia, Georgia, your question or thought, Trenia?
CALLER: Jane, I want to thank you for taking my call.
CALLER: I watch you every night.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you.
CALLER: And I watch Nancy Grace every night.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I`ve glad you`ve gotten to watch both of us.
CALLER: But I want to ask something. I don`t understand, with everything that`s going on today in this world, and women are getting gone every day, and children are getting gone every day, and the predators are just oozing in on all these women. How does a woman decide to go all the way over there, not meeting -- just meeting him online?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that`s a good question, but let me go back to Richard Forester. Robyn knew Gary, according to published reports, for about a year. And so is she a trusting person? What`s your thought on all of this?
FORESTER: She is a trusting person, absolutely is a trusting person.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What are the police telling you about their efforts to locate her computer, go into their -- her apartment? Maybe do some searches there? Have you -- are you in contact...
FORESTER: The local authorities here? Here in Maryland?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, whoever.
FORESTER: They`re not telling -- I spoke with the authorities today, and you know, they`re -- they can`t really give me many comments, just due to the fact that there`s an ongoing investigation. I was really adamant about, you know, getting into Gary`s house, getting into his property and finding his computer, his videos, things like that, because I had heard about that.
Her computer, her phone is -- was with her in Aruba. So they`re not going to be able to do that. Her apartment, they`re not going to find a whole lot there other than her clothes. Most of her things were at my house, including her two cats, since January. I recently moved, and I got in touch with her brother and gave those belongings and the cats to her brother.
So, you know, they`re not telling me a whole lot. As far as I know, they just really got involved.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you, Richard. We`re going to stay on top of this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: I just wanted to let everyone know that I`m sorry for what I did.
CROWD: Justice for Caylee. Justice for Caylee. Justice for Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Without a shadow of a doubt, she did it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`ll get her judgment, someday.
JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Are you concerned for her safety?
CHENEY MASON, CASEY ANTHONY`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Sure.
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST, "NANCY GRACE": The devil is dancing tonight.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not guilty?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not guilty? No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My God.
JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, PRESIDED OVER CASEY ANTHONY CASE: I`m also well aware of the threats.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: How upset are you right now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Upset that I was crying. It`s not right, Jane.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight a stunning development in the Casey Anthony saga. And I`m not talking about her just being labeled the most hated person in America. That`s not a shock.
Good evening everybody. And I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, back with you live from New York City.
What is shocking is that now, now, Florida`s Department of Children and Families have officially reached the conclusion that Casey Anthony failed to protect her daughter resulting in little Caylee`s death. Now they decide that after her trial? After her acquittal?
Here`s the report signed yesterday. After her bizarre probation hearing, this conclusion could have been reached in, let`s say what -- three minutes, three hours, three day, three weeks, three months? But more than three years later? Seriously? It`s ridiculous.
The timing is actually strange and quite suspicious. Is this some kind of exercise in saving face? If they had released this report just three months ago, the DCF investigators might have been called as witnesses.
It kind of smacks as sour grapes, and definitely too little too late; not to mention trying to snatch victory out of the hands of the defense.
Straight out to Michael Christian, live in Orlando; you are waiting, counting down the ruling from Judge Perry about whether or not Casey Anthony is going to have to do her probation. You`ve got breaking news just in. What do you know?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, SENIOR PRODUCER, "IN SESSION": I wish I had breaking news, Jane. I don`t have any --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I`ll give it to you. Tomorrow at 11:00 a.m., 11:00 a.m. tomorrow, they`re going to announce it.
CHRISTIAN: We`re hoping. We`re hoping. We don`t know. We waited all day yesterday, nothing. We waited all day today, nothing. We`re hoping tomorrow we get a feeler, it may be tomorrow, but we just don`t know. I`ll be here regardless.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I heard that they were going to do at 11:00 tomorrow morning. I got an e-mail. I`m going to start checking my e-mails now, live on the air. Ok. I won`t do that, but I swear to you, that`s what I -- somebody sent me an e-mail that seemed important and official.
All right. Look, here`s what I don`t understand, ok. This report -- and I have to go to Mike Brooks on this -- this report, "Department of Children and Families Review of Child Death" and it`s signed yesterday. Yesterday. What the heck?
Here it says, "The actions or lack of actions by the alleged perpetrator" -- that`s Casey -- "ultimately resulted or contributed in the death of the child victim." I mean this is a horrific, horrific story. But my gosh, what`s the point of it now, Mike Brooks?
MIKE BROOKS, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: You stole my line, Jane, too little too late. What difference does it make now? Absolutely none. Absolutely none.
You know, , one of my questions was today, well, does this report maybe affect whether or not Judge Perry will put her back (AUDIO GAP) it`s not going to affect that either Jane. It`s just a piece of paper that we have now and are they telling us anything we didn`t know. No, they`re not.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, it kind of to me smacks of like, oh, let`s try to make ourselves look good now that this case was lost and she`s walking free and she`s the most hated person in America and everybody`s up in arms over it. And what happened, what went wrong. We were so sure she was going to be convicted. And now, well let`s just issue this report.
I mean it really -- it`s lame, frankly, Mike Brooks, and I just think it is lame and sometimes you have to call them like you see them.
Now we are going to go to a very special guest, our exclusive interview with lawyer to the stars, Shawn Holley. Sean has a very long list of famous clients, most notable Lindsay Lohan. So who better to weigh in on Casey Anthony`s pending probation drama?
Sean, thank you so much for being here. We were just talking a second ago. You and I have run into each other many times at various courts. In the Malibu courthouse and the courthouse in downtown LA and I`m always running with a microphone and you`re always escorting a famous client in. But of all the people in America, you probably have the most experience when somebody is famous and they`re in court and they`re dealing with things like probation.
All these developments maneuvers about this report coming out from the Department of Children and Family, saying, yes, she`s responsible for little Caylee`s death. And also the debate over whether or not she has to do probation. Does all this strike you as kind of political face-saving?
SHAWN HOLLEY, LINDSAY LOHAN`S ATTORNEY: It does. And you know, I think that obviously since Casey has been voted the most hated person in America, I guess people are obviously very upset about the verdict. And it seems that because of that, they`re trying to do everything they could possibly do to throw something at her because they couldn`t get her on the big thing.
It reminds me of the aftermath of the O.J. Simpson trial. I was on the O.J. Simpson defense team and, of course, that too was a very unpopular verdict. And you may remember that in the aftermath of that when O.J. moved to Miami, he was charged with something involving road rage and it seemed like there were all sorts of things sort of coming out of the woodwork at him.
And that seems to be what`s happening here with Casey Anthony. People are very upset. They didn`t get their pound of flesh. That seems to me almost what`s driving this probation issue and also what`s driving this latest report.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think you said it absolutely brilliantly. But what strikes me as so bizarre is that the powers that be think we`re not going to pick this up and realize that there`s a political element to this? Whatever you think about Casey and she is, as you say, now the most -- officially the most hated person in America. She was acquitted, and that`s it. Right?
Now, you are certainly no -- go ahead.
HOLLEY: I was just going to say that`s it. And this issue with the probation, at least in California, you can be on probation and also serving a sentence in jail. I`m not sure if that`s so in Florida, but one thing that I do think is true across the land is a fundamental principle of due process, which is that any ambiguity is resolved in favor of the defendant. And it seems that this probation issue is ambiguous and uncertain. It seems like nobody really knows what to do with it as far as the bench is concerned.
And so, I think due process dictates that the ambiguity has to be resolved in her favor and that we have to accept that she served her probation already when she was in just. We`ve just got to let this go, and somehow make peace with it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And again, you don`t need a poll to show the people they detest Casey Anthony, and here`s a sampling of many, many people, what they had to say. Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Caylee, Caylee, Caylee, Caylee, Caylee, Caylee, Caylee. Justice for Caylee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Casey now ranks highest in total dislike, 94 percent of the people polled say she is the most -- officially the most hated person in America. That puts her ahead of O.J. Simpson. That puts her ahead of octomom and many, many other people are considered not liked at all and detested.
So Shawn you are no stranger, certainly to high profile clients. You`ve represented Lindsay Lohan when she was absolutely mobbed, constantly mobbed wherever she went. Any time she walked out, photographers would trail her, would track. She even had to maneuver to get out of the way from this people.
So what advice would you give to Casey Anthony, who is laying low in some undisclosed location right now and her attorney Jose Baez about what to do next?
HOLLEY: Well, you know, a lot of people dislike Lindsay, but a lot of people love her, too. And I don`t think that there are a lot of people out there who love Casey Anthony. I think that it`s probably dangerous for her to be out in the world. I mean not only will people probably try to harm her but the paparazzi also as we`ve seen can create also a real dangerous environment for any celebrity. And Casey has become somewhat of a celebrity.
So, you know, I`m concerned really also going back to the probation about her having to -- if she is ordered to serve her probation -- tell where she lives to the probation department. I mean it`s just very, very dangerous for her, and actually for people around her. We have to take that into consideration.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely we have to, and I think you`re right about this point that we forget. We forget that judges and prosecutors and people in these institutions are people first, they have emotions, they have egos. And one of the points made by Casey`s defense team was their claim that Judge Stan Strickland, who was the original judge who was thrown off the case, who recused himself after getting involved in a little mini kind of scandal over talking to a guy who was a blogger, who had said negative things about Casey, anyway.
But anyway, the defense has accused him of being vindictive with coming out with this ruling after her acquittal saying "I meant for her to serve probation after, not while she`s in jail, so now she has to do probation." Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LIZABETH FRYER, CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I would argue that Judge Strickland`s participation in the media would suggest that this was a vindictive sentence based on his disapproval of the jury`s finding. She was given a sentence, the sentence was given terms, the terms were erroneously transcribed, she completed those terms. This is done, this is over.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, while the defense says she already served her probation behind bars, awaiting trial for murder, the prosecution wants her to do probation again or a fresh round of probation.
What do you think, Shawn? Should she do probation?
HOLLEY: No, she shouldn`t do probation. I -- you know, I get it. I understand why everything is so upset and everyone is looking for some way to stick it to this woman, because they feel that she got away with murder. But the reality is, as I said earlier, ambiguity has to be resolved in favor of the defendant. That is what our constitutional principles are really based on. Our criminal justice system is based on giving benefit to the defendant.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Shawn, I wish we had more time. It`s so delightful talking with you.
HOLLEY: Thank you.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we hope you come back, because really your insights are invaluable.
HOLLEY: Thank you.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Keep it up in that crazy world called Hollywood?
HOLLEY: Thank you.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a fight about cutting spending.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The kind of thing that can take a family that`s already on the edge and put them into a downward spiral.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We`ve always have been and always will be a AAA country.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Consumers are 70 percent of the economy. And with consumers continuing to be laden with debt, they can`t borrow, their jobs are disappearing, their wages are declining.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Clients are still spending money.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you`re one of the Americans who doesn`t have a job right now, wow, you could end up in even worse hot water than you`re already in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Shocking news just in. Most Americans do not have $1,000 saved up in case of emergency. Can you believe that? We have more than 300 million people in this country and most of us are in a financial jam, we do not have a thousand bucks, none of us. Most of us do not have a thousand bucks for an emergency.
But when it comes to that fancy TV or that pair of jeans, oops, suddenly we`ve got money for that. Ok. Could one of our favorite past times, shopping, have something to do with our crisis? Savings crisis?
The truth is we are brainwashed to be consumers, 24/7/365, you`re a consumer -- consume, consume. The economy depends on it. Lie. Ok?
No. You can`t just listen to it`s the job market, it`s the stock market. It`s 90 percent about most of our consumption being unnecessary. I`m taking your calls on this. Give me a call, disagree with me. I love it. 1-877-JVM-SAYS.
Straight out to Dave Bruno. And Dave, I was writing my book, "Addict Nation" when I came upon your Web site, 100-thing challenge and you have a couple of Web sites there. But my book "Addict Nation" features you because I was just so inspired. Basically tell us, in a nutshell what you have done with your life.
DAVE BRUNO, AUTHOR, "THE 100-THING CHALLENGE": Well, first of all, thanks so much Jane. I appreciate the interest in the 100-thing challenge. This is what I`ve done with my life. I think like a lot of Americans who want to save up that $1,000 and want to be prepared for an emergency, I was the same way, but I wasn`t behaving the same way. I would get $500 and then I`d go buy an iPhone or I`d get $300 and then go shopping for clothes.
So what I did is I decided, if I could maybe live with less than 100 personal possessions for an extended period of time for a year, then I would break my consumer bad habits. And I just wouldn`t be stuck in stuff anymore.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you limited your possessions to 100 things and you challenged others to do the same.
BRUNO: Yes. Absolutely.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Give me a quick list of some of the things you got rid of?
BRUNO: Oh, so many things. I got rid of all my wood-working tools that just were collecting dust instead of actually doing anything in the garage. I got rid of a guitar. Something that was hard to get rid of was a camera, which I enjoyed and kind of missed even so. But it was just taking up time and space. Tons and tons of clothes; just amazing how much clothes we have and how much we can get by on.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And let me ask you one question, are you a happier person today?
BRUNO: Oh, yes, absolutely. Absolutely.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Finish your thought.
BRUNO: I was just going to say people tell me this all the time. After a purge, they feel like a weight is lifted off their shoulders. They feel free, and it`s just consistent across the board. Simplicity really helps out.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I want to go to Tim Kasser, who was the author of "The High Price of Materialism", another book that I -- another book I quoted in my book, "Addict Nation".
Tim Kasser, I have to tell you, the premise of my book is that we are indoctrinated to become addicted to consumption. And we are defined as consumer, which we`re really a lot more than that. And also we`re told if we want something, we need it.
There are people on the other side of the world right now, hundreds of thousands of kids in danger of starving to death in Somalia, but we are told our whole culture is based on if I want something, I need it, I have to go get it right away; your thoughts of that being the author of "The High Price of Materialism".
TIM KASSER, AUTHOR, "THE HIGH PRICE OF MATERIALISM": Two thoughts that I would share about that based on the research that we`ve done. The first is to echo what was just said. We know that that pathway doesn`t lead to happiness. The research says over and over again that the more people orient their lives around materialism, buying stuff and consuming, the less happy they are. That kind of keeps them locked in this vicious cycle where they`re saying, that didn`t make me happy, maybe this next thing will make me happy. And that`s really good for the economy as you just said. It`s something that keeps the wheels of the economy turning.
The second thing we know is that values act like a see-saw. As one set of values goes up, the other tends to go down. One of the sets of values that the research shows is fundamentally opposed to materialistic values are pro-social values; about our caring those kids in Somalia, or caring about other species that are going extinct because of our over- consuming habits.
And the more we take on those materialistic messages, as those tend to go up, those pro-social values tend to go down. That`s part of why we end up with these kind of dilemmas.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Listen, on the other side we`re going to talk to Chris Markowski and see if he agrees with all this stuff. Stay there.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. We`re talking about the crisis in America; a new study showing that most Americans do not have a thousand dollars, should they need it in case of emergency. And part of the problem is that we are brainwashed, conditioned 24/7/365 to buy, buy, buy, buy, buy stuff we don`t need. Not that all of us are buying Rolls-Royces, or fancy jewelry or watches but we`re also told, if you get this you`ll feel fulfilled.
And actually, status symbols are a contrarian indicator. You don`t need a status symbol if you`re secure about your status in the world. When I see people with status symbols, I immediately think, here`s somebody who has an insecurity and they need to prove to us that they`re ok with their status symbol which they flash at us to say hey, you can`t do anything to me, I`ve got this status symbol. That makes me ok.
Not in my book. It`s a contrarian indicator. Here`s what I suggest in my book "Addict Nation". Do a consumption journal. I did this and it was an eye opener. Take a notebook and write down everything you buy, consume or dispose of like plastic bottles, plastic bag; everything you buy, you eat and consume you dispose of for five days. And you will become disgusted with yourself. And it will be a revelation.
I want to go to Chris Markowski. That`s how I hit bottom on my over- consumption which I still have to watch because in this culture, everybody`s a hypocrite, including myself.
Because it`s very hard to survive with the constant indoctrination that somehow if you just buy this, buy this, buy this, buy this, buy this you`ll be happy. It`s a lie.
CHRIS MARKOWSKI, SYNDICATED RADIO HOST: You`re absolutely right. I can`t tell you how many people come into my office and want their financial plans done. They have a nice watch, and a nice car, and a nice suit but they don`t have any money and they`ve got huge credit card debt. Your stuff can end up enslaving you.
One of the keys to being financially independent is when you have more money than your neighbors and they don`t have a clue. So I agree with you completely on the status symbol.
One of other gentlemen mentioned about the 100 stuff that he got himself down to. This is where I kind of disagree. He got rid of his woodworking tools and his camera. You don`t want to get rid of things that you truly love if you have a hobby or if you have a passion. There`s nothing wrong with having that.
To me it`s my family. I like having money so I can spend time with them. I can`t understand why he would throw anything like that away. So everybody`s got to find what they like. But you have to pay yourself every single month and put money away.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you`re absolutely right. One of the big problems as I researched this, credit; remember the days where we put things on lay-way? I used to do that when I was a kid. I wanted something, I`d say here, I`ll give you a down payment and I`m going to save up. No, it doesn`t matter what you want, you can get it, buy it. And then when the bill comes, and you don`t have the money, oops.
All right. Tom, California, your question or thought Tom.
TOM, CALIFORNIA (via telephone): it`s a comment more than a question. I totally agree with you, that a lot of people shop unnecessarily for so many things. They should really do without it right now, and they could wait a little while until they save up the money to buy those things. One way I`ve been able to do it. I don`t think I have a large income, me and my wife`s income is $65,000 a year and I`m on social security disability too. But I keep track of everything we have online in our checking and savings. And I make certain rules.
The day before payday if there`s anything left in the checking account I throw it in the savings account just to save money. Because of that, I`ve been able to save up enough money to pay off a couple of credit cards I have.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good for you, Tom. More in a second.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dave Bruno of "The 100 Thing Challenge", your chance to respond about all the stuff you`ve given away.
BRUNO: Chris made a really good point. I don`t want to contradict that. I would just say that for folks who have an addiction to consumerism, sometimes it`s better just to get out of dodge. Get rid of your stuff, change your life around and then show back up to the store when you`re in better control.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, well, you don`t control an addiction, I agree with you, but you surrender to an addiction. And yes, we are addicted to consumption. And I do -- I try to turn it over, because I`m like the rest. I can get into that give me more, give me more. But one of the things I keep in mind is, there is absolutely no material thing that is going to fundamentally alter my interior state.
Happiness is an inside job, and when you free yourself up. When you get rid of something, you open space for something else to come in. I love your idea.