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President Obama's Job Plans Outlined; Christine O'Donnell Walks Out of Interview; Is Gadhafi Regime Near End in Libya?

Aired August 17, 2011 - 20:00   ET


ANDERSON COOPER, HOST: John, thanks. Good evening, everyone.

We begin with breaking news. We just learned the outlines of President Obama's plan to boost jobs. The president is talking jobs everywhere he goes on a three-day swing between Minnesota, Iowa and Illinois. Until now he's been talking mainly about existing proposal already before congress. But this evening in Illinois he hinted at new plans paid for by deficit reduction.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: When folks tell you we have a choice between jobs now or dealing with our debt crisis, they're wrong. They're wrong. We can't afford to do just one or the other. We got to do both.


COOPER: Well, last night Wolf Blitzer asked the president why waits until September. New polling from Gallup shows how good the question that was. Just 26 percent of Americans now approve of how Mr. Obama is handling the economy. 26 percent. That's down 11 points from the last time.

Jessica Yellin got an inside details of the president's new jobs plan, Senior Political Analyst David Gergen is here with us to analyze it and former George W. Bush's Press Secretary Ari Fleischer. You can follow him on twitter @arifleischer.

So Jessica, what do we know now? What do you know about the president's plan for next month?

JESSICA YELLIN, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, after labor day he's going to unveil a jobs proposal that my sources tell me will have, well, will have specifics in the way his critics have been calling for.

So, according to my sources it will be actual legislation. That is real detail. Until the package will be new initiatives and not a rehash of the policies we've been hearing him promoting recently like patent reform or infrastructure bank.

My sources say there will be proposals in three main categories. Targeted tax cuts, another big one for the White House is new infrastructure investment and then long-term help for the unemployed.

I should point out this is all being worked out right now. It will continue to be hashed out over the president's vacation. The president is meeting with his top economic advisers tomorrow. I'm told it will come up there. But already the Republican leaders have issued warning shots saying this package should not include any new spending. The president says it will. Sounds like we should brace for a fight.

COOPER: So, David Gergen, last night on the program you raised concerns about the timing of all this. If the president you know is waiting until September, that means new legislation won't be for a while. But it sounds like he is maybe proposing legislation in September.

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENOIR POLITICAL ANALYST: Sounds like he is proposing legislation in September and we should welcome the fact that he has new job proposals and he's going to put on the table his deficit reduction proposals. You know people have been saying where is his plan on deficits? And he hasn't done that. Now he's going to do that. So I think he deserves credit for doing both those things.

It's also true Anderson that if you wait until September to put forward your jobs proposals and then you basically say I'm going to go back on the road with my bus and promote this all over the country, there's sort of an expectation implied in that they're not going to pass this. And this is really about show. I'm going to put proposals out there. And maybe I'll get them but probably not and then I'll use it as a hammer.

COOPER: That's what this is about?

GERGEN: They're trying to have it both ways.

COOPER: Is the fact that the information is leaking out now? I mean that's clearly it's not an accident that someone is telling this to Jessica.

GERGEN: It sure no accident. You know he is just going to a vacation. What would you want to do before you went on vacation with people hurting the way they are?

Putting it something out to tell that there will be action. I think the truth is most Americans would like to see him have right now have people at the White House saying, OK, Republicans, here are my proposals. What are your proposals? Let's see if we can't make a marriage of the two and get going now. Why wait, wait, wait.

COOPER: Ari, what about that? What do you think of the White House strategy? Does it put real pressure on Republicans in Congress to release a jobs plan of their own?

ARI FLEISCHER, FMR PRESS SECRETARY OF PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Well, number one specifics are vitally important. Presidents always do best when they lead the most. And if you even if you don't like what they're saying, presidents get credit for leadership if they take the initiative. And that's what was lacking from the spring through the summer on the debt debate. There were no specific that the president offered.

Nobody ever heard on what they were even on the privately against the Republicans would tell you, the president was vague saying Medicare needs to be on the table. This needs to be on the table without specificity. So that's number one.

The timing though too, I think the president would be a lot better at serve if come out with it earlier in August and then took this bus that he was on. Because then he could have been going around the country trying to convince people he had the right policies to make America better and to create jobs.

Instead, he really created a political tour for himself where he looks like Mitt Romney or Governor Perry or any other candidate out on the hustings. I think his ways are to last three days. He will hurt himself a bit politically in the last few days. We'll see specifics are in September. It comes down to devil in the details.

COOPER: David, do you think it would have been better to try to do this in early August before this bus tour?

GERGEN: The Republicans say with some justification this is 938 days in his presidency, what about do it last year or how about doing that two years ago?

Yes, so it's late. But I think he deserves credit for recognizing we do need something on jobs. We'll have to wait and see. I think Ari is right about that. But I very seriously believe Anderson that people want action more than words.

This - He is be given credit for doing something in substantive terms but it has a lot of political overtones. It's really covered with politics. And it sounds like he's not really seriously expected Congress to act. What he is doing is looking for a way to beat Republicans over the head.

COOPER: Jessica, do you think that's true? I mean what do you think is behind the timing here?

YELLIN: Well, there are a couple of things. The president's advisers from my reporting think there's no real point in rolling out legislation right now when Congress is away. Calling them back for a fight isn't going to serve anyone's interest. It will be gridlock.

So, don't do it when they're away and when summer distractions drown out big news. Their thinking is, do it when the focus is on Washington in September. It does have the political benefit, Anderson, of putting him on the road in the fall with real voters and real people when I should point out that Congress is likely to be back in Washington locked in partisan fights not only is that super committee coming back to town to talk about the deficit reduction that David was mentioning but keep in mind Congress has not yet passed the next budget and there's now talk in Washington that there could be another government shutdown fight brewing in the fall. This gets the president out of town and away from those kinds of fights.

GERGEN: But the very point is that everything Jessica says is terrifically helpful and reported exactly right but the whole conversation was about the politics about it and not about actually creating jobs.

COOPER: And that's what matters?


COOPER: In the end. We have to leave it there. David, Ari Fleischer, Jessica, thank you very much.

Send u what you think, we're on face book. Follow me on twitter @andersoncooper. I'll be tweeting tonight.

Up next, the war of words over jobs between president Obama and Texas Governor Rick Perry. Governor Perry says he creates them and president Obama destroys them.

The question is, what is the facts say? We will check that. We will keep them honest.

Later, opposition forces in Libya getting closer to Tripoli and possibly to victory. We'll talk live with our people on the ground in Tripoli and with opposition just outside of the capital.

First, let's check in with Isha Sesay. Isha.

ISHA SESAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, a stunning revelation in the deadly collapse at the Indiana State fair. It could answer the question why on earth wasn't the fairground evacuated when gale force winds were blowing. It may also pave the way for lots of lawsuits.

That and more when "360" continues.


COOPER: The battle is now joined between President Obama and Texas Governor Perry. It began when Governor Rick Perry suggested that Americans on forces would prefer someone like him who has worn the uniform.

Yesterday with CNN's Wolf Blitzer, President Obama hit back.


OBAMA: Mr. Perry just got in the presidential race and I think that everybody who runs for president probably takes a little bit of time before they start realizing this isn't like running for governor or senator or congress. You have to be more careful about what you say. But I'll cut him some slack. He's only been at it for a few days now.


COOPER: Today in New Hampshire Governor Perry counterpunched.


GOVE. RICK PERRY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The president said I need to watch what I say. I just want to respond back, if I may. Mr. President, actions speak louder than words. My actions as governor are helping create jobs in this country. The president's actions are killing jobs in this country. It's time to get America working again.


COOPER: Well, that's point number one of a three-point critique from Governor Perry that he's a job creator and President Obama is a job destroyer. But keeping them honest, that's not quite true. In fact, all three of his points stretched the facts. Here's point two. The private sector creates jobs as the public sector doesn't. That's what he says. Listen.


PERRY: Mr. President, you have tried now for 2 1/2 years of government creating jobs. And it's time to let the private sector get back to work. That's the real way to create jobs in America.


COOPER: OK. That's point two. Point three, part of his economic success stems from how carefully he spends taxpayer dollars. Listen.


PERRY: One of the things that we did in Texas over the decade was we had some guiding principles. Number one, don't spend all the money.


COOPER: Keeping them honest. All three points glide over a number of inconvenient facts. So, one of Governor Perry's claims though that Texas has created half of the nation's new jobs during the recovery, that's absolutely true.

According to the bureau of labor statistics, Texas created about 262,000 jobs between the summer of 2009 and now. That's out of 524,000 jobs nationwide. But that hardly makes President Obama as Governor Perry claims a job destroyer. Nationwide, the economy is created jobs every month since mid-2009 but not enough to keep up with the population growth.

But in Texas, the population growth in the form of migration into the state has been so massive it's creating huge demand for goods and services and that means jobs. Health care jobs up more than twice the federal rate. Private education up nearly three-fold. Now, clearly Texas is creating jobs but in large part due to people migrating there and not necessarily because of Rick Perry's policy. The bottom line, President Obama and Governor Perry are both job creators but Governor Perry is benefiting from certain advantages unique to Texas.

The idea that one creates job as the other destroys them is stretch at best. Even more so, when you look at the type of jobs created, and this is really interesting, look at this.

U.S. news and world report crunched the numbers going back to 2008 through the end of last year. Federal government jobs in Texas were up seven percent. State government jobs, government jobs, up 8.4 percent. Local government jobs up 6.1 percent. Private sector jobs, down 0.5 percent.

So Governor Perry's second point that the private sector creates jobs and the public sector doesn't, that simply doesn't hold up. It's not true. Not in Texas. As for point three, spending discipline.

Texas had a $6.6 billion shortfall in the last budget back in 2009. Now, instead of using the state's rainy day fund to close that gap, Governor Perry and the GOP control the legislature took $6.4 billion in federal stimulus money. Federal stimulus money.

In fact, the very same day he requested it he posted an anti- government item on his blog. The headline, help us turn the tide in Washington and stop these irresponsible bailouts. The irony, this year with federal money running out, Governor Perry had to balance his budget without help from Washington that's meant major spending cuts and lay-offs for stable local workers. Spoke earlier about all these with Democratic Strategist Donna Brazile and a Republican Strategist Alex Castellanos.


COOPER: So Alex, it's true that Texas has led the nation in creating jobs since the recession but a lot of those jobs are in the public sector and funded by federal stimulus money. So when he criticized President Obama's performance on job creation, isn't he being a little hypocritical here?

ALEX CASTELLANOS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, that's one of the differences between playing in the minor leagues and big league ball in a presidential race. You have to think two or three moves down the road. And I think on some of the big government issues, Governor Perry will have a lot to explain.

For example, his Ben Bernanke convent, he is going to come back to bite him because it turns out as a governor he wrote a letter to Bernanke asking for that $700 billion T.A.R.P. programs. So, you know what you say has to match up with what you do at the presidential level.

COOPER: Donna, I mean Perry isn't alone though. Lot of governors are criticizes stimulus when to accept stimulus funds. DONNA BRAZILE, DEMOCRATICE STRATEGIST: Absolutely. In the case of Texas Governor Perry used the money to basically fill that gap with the budget shortfall. It allowed him not to tap to deeply into the rainy day fund.

Also at a time when other governors were cutting back and furloughing their employees, this governor kept many private sector employees on the payroll.

CASTELLANOS: But Anderson, I also want to defend Perry a little bit here. It was their money originally. Washington did take it from all states. And you can't blame governors, in democrat or Republican, from trying to get their money back.

COOPER: I want to play what you reference comments he made about the fed chairman, Bernanke. I want to play that for our viewers in case he didn't see it.


PERRY: If this guy prints more money between now and the election, I don't know what you all would do to him in Iowa, but we would treat him pretty ugly down in Texas. I mean, printing more money to play politics at this particular time in American history is almost treacherous (ph) -- treasonous in my opinion.


COOPER: Does Perry have a problem with the kind of strung on the campaign trail. Because that is what a lot of his supporters love about him.

CASTELLANOS: It is. You know, the one hand he demonstrates strength and right now people feel their president has lost control of Washington and on all sides of everything. But a president is someone who's got his finger on that nuclear button.

You want someone in that chair in the oval office that's solid and steady and you can count on and when you shoot from the lip, that doesn't convey that. What does it do? It scares suburban voters. It scares swing voters.

And one thing Republicans want more than anything, this selection is a candidate who can beat Barack Obama in the fall. Also, Texas is a big state you know. They are allowed to have big oil and big business and big colorful language but if Perry develops a pattern of this, again it's something that will hurt him in the fall and that will hurt him in the primary.

COOPER: Donna, do you think the White House sees Perry as the most potent candidate right now?

BRAZILE: I think the White House shouldn't take any of the Republican candidates for granted. It should be concerned about all including Michele Bachmann and Mitt Romney. That said, I thought he made a very big mistake in the first 72 hours of his introduction into the country.

People may know him down in Texans. I fact, Louisiana know him quite well and perhaps people in Arkansas. The majority of voters do not know Rick Perry. They don't know his record. They don't know his background. They don't know the fact that he's a former democrat. Who was a democrat until 1989.

So, during his period of introduction, what voters are looking for especially on the Republican side is someone who could beat President Obama. But what the country is looking for is someone who could lead the country at a very difficult time to help grow the economy and I tell you, when they heard Rick Perry the other day, they probably said we'll take a pass on him.

CASTELLANOS: That's the worst thing I heard yet that Rick Perry was a former democrat. Only thing worse is being a current democrat. Oh, my.


BRAZILE: You know what? He only left because he couldn't stand the water.


COOPER: We'll leave it there. Donna Brazile, Alex Castellanos, thank you.

BRAZILE: Thank you.


COOPER: Former Delaware Senate candidate and tea party favorite Christine O'Donnell is the guest on PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT and I'm told the interview did not go exactly as planned. Piers Joins us now.

What happened? What did you do, Piers?

PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST, PRIERS MORGAN TONIGHT: It was a bit extraordinary actually. Because I thought I was being my normal self -- chivalrous pretty self. And then she suddenly took huge on bridge declared I was being rude and walked out.


MORGAN: I just asking you questions based on your own public statements and what you've written in your own book. It's hardly rude to ask you that surely.

CHRISTINE O'DONNELL, AUTHOR, TROUBLEMAKER: Well, don't you think as a host if I say this is what I want to talk about, that's what we should address?

MORGAN: Not really, no. You're a politician.

O'DONNELL: OK. I'm being pulled away. We turned down another interview for this.

MORGAN: Where are you going? You're leaving?

O'DONNELL: Well, I was supposed to be speaking at the Republican women's club at 6:00 and I chose to be a little late for that, not to be, you know, not to endure a rude talk show host but to talk about my book and to talk about the issues that I address in my book. Have you read the book?

MORGAN: Yes. These issues are in your book. That's the point. You do talk about them.

O'DONNELL: OK. All right. Are we off? Are we done?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's still there.

MORGAN: I'm not. I'm still here.

UNIDENTIFID MALE: He says he still wants to talk to you.


MORGAN: It would appear that the interview has just been ended.


COOPER: It's interesting how politicians these days particularly on this newer crop of politicians don't like -- I mean they feel like they should only be asked about what they want to talk about, what they have their talking points about and they don't even want to talk about their past statements.

MORGAN: I found it a very strange moment. And I don't think anyone who watches the interview would deduce I was being rude. A little bit cheeky maybe but not rude.

COOPER: You are a cheeky monkey but I think its fair game to ask about past statements that people have made particularly someone's position on same-sex marriage, I mean that's in the news. That's not like you are pulling it out of a hat.

MORGAN: Not completely. I found it odd that she would use that particular moment to leave because I think on reflection when she looks back at this, it looks like she has something to hide and in other words her view may be so extreme or contentious that it would cause her political damage. That was the only thing I could deduce from it. A rather bizarre encounter.

COOPER: I also found it fascinating that she had some person to would in stand in front of the camera as if somehow like that would help or the cameras would magically stop or something.

MORGAN: Yes. And somebody who looked fairly gigantic. It's like a huge black shadow arrived covering the camera. So we couldn't see what was happening other than her saying you're being very rude and that was that. COOPER: If you can't face tough questions and statements about what you said in the past, that seems like you're not ready for prime time.

Piers, I look forward to the interview.

MORGAN: An early candidate for the Ridiculist, Anderson?

COOPER: Perhaps. Perhaps. Well, I'll take a look at the full interview tonight at 9:00 p.m. eastern. Piers, thanks.

MORGAN: Thanks Anderson.

COOPER: By the way, we have a ridiculist tonight that every time I've been practicing it, I break up giggling. So I hope I don't mess it up.

Up next on 360, the battle to control Libya. The rebels with the help of NATO air power appear to moving closer to Tripoli. But Moammar Gadhafi is fighting back. We have two reporters on the ground in Tripoli and with the opposition. We will give you - give us the details.

Also ahead on 360 special investigation. I'm calling it ungodly discipline. Parents who believe the bible tells them to physically discipline their kids. We're not talking spankings. We are talking about hitting with rods. Hitting with wooden spoon. Hitting with belt. It led to one little girl's death.

We will speak to a woman who was beaten by her parents. We'll talk about how many pastors these days are encouraging parents to do this and whether that information is being misinterpreted and misused by some abusive parents. We'll be right back.


COOPER: There are reports the capital of Libya, Tripoli, might be about to fall and Moammar Gadhafi along with it. The end might and I repeat might be near for Moammar Gadhafi. Rebels or opposition forces in the past few days have made some very strategic gains and tonight they are on the cusp of having the Tripoli being surrounded.

Let's talk to Sara Sidner who's with the opposition forces in a second.

But first, let's take a look at the map. Tripoli still in Gadhafi's hands as is the area in red. The rebels, the opposition forces, whatever you want to call them, now control Regions to the east, south and west of Tripoli, the area in green.

NATO says that they are making advances in the city of Zlitan, east of Tripoli and rebels say they control parts of the key city of Zawiya, only about 30 miles west of the capital. Now, the fighting there has been bloody. To me, it is important because its strategic supply route to Tripoli without a doubt Gadhafi is in trouble so he is not giving up easily. A rebel commander said today that Gadhafi's forces are staging fierce resistance in the eastern part of the city and reports of Gadhafi snipers shooting from the rooftops and heavy shelling. A government spokesman dismissed talk of rebel control in Zawiya and said that the key supply route is secure.

As I mentioned Sara Sidner is with the opposition forces tonight and CNN's Matthew Chance is in Tripoli.

Sara, you talked to people coming out of Zawiya today. What's the latest from there?

SARA SIDNER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Certainly the families are quite scared because they were mentioning that there was heavy shelling early in the morning that had continued throughout the day. They were scared for their families. They were scared for the safety of their children. We did see car loads literally of families leaving Zawiya because they were just afraid.

They were afraid, number one, for being hit by anything but also afraid of the reaction of Gadhafi forces knowing that the rebels are now inside that city and trying to push them out.

It gives you some sense of the fact that rebels are not in full control of that city. We also talked to a colonel who just left Zawiya and he did mention the fact that they are not in control of the city. They are in control of part of the city. The southern most part but that Gadhafi troops are on the eastern most part and they are shelling into the city. Plus he said there are snipers, some of those snipers near hospitals and people are scared and understand why people are leaving. Anderson?

COOPER: You know Sara, early on there was such a huge problem with opposition forces with their lack of training, with the lack of discipline, with I mean them in firing in the air and them just going you know hell melt toward the front line and then retreating quickly. Have they become a lot more disciplined and a lot more organized?

SIDNER: I think it's fair to say that they have become quite a bit more disciplined although Anderson today we saw people shooting in the air randomly celebrating in some way or trying to get morale up by do that kind sort of things which commanders we talked to early on in the beginning rally of this conflict who said we're trying to stop that. It's a waste of ammunition. But still it persists.

However, it does seem that they have become much more coordinated but this is really important to mention. Almost every single significant gain that the rebels have made, have been made only because they have NATO's help and the same is going on with the areas in and around Zawiya.

They have had some air strikes over the past 72 hours that have been quite helpful to the rebels. We know that was the case in Misrata. We know that was the case in some other areas like Benghazi and quite a few other cities. So without that help there's questions as to whether or not these rebels can become strong enough to actually hold these cities and push forward towards Tripoli where Gadhafi has the most firepower and has the most support.

COOPER: Right. Matthew, in Tripoli if the opposition forces were able to take full control of Zawiya, how big is set back would that mean for the Gadhafi regime? What would it actually mean?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It would be a devastating setback. Quite number of reasons Sara mentioned that one, it's the main supply route to the west. I mean people in Tripoli, the capital, would have to go there for some food stuffs, fuel supplies and things like that. There's also an oil refinery in Zawiya, one of 82 that is controlled by the Gadhafi regime at the moment.

So it would have a big impact if that's lost to rebels. So, it sure petro-gasoline for their military effort. It says it would be a huge loss. I think more than anything else, it would be the enormous psychological impact inside the capital that all three sides there and four sides if you include this city. The people in this cities would be essentially cutoff and that would put enormous pressure on the people here and the idea they could escape when things got rough so that's the real importance of this battle right now.

COOPER: Matthew, I mean, Libyan government officials, you know, have routinely just made up completely ridiculous and absurd stories and told lies, how are they characterizing the current situation?

CHANCE: Well, if they are concerned about being encircled by the rebels on these three different sites, they are not talking about it publicly. They are being defiant.

Defiant speeches from the leader himself, Colonel Gadhafi, urging factions of people who gather in the main square in central Tripoli every night urging them to be ready and to take up arms and to prepare to defend the capital Tripoli.

But certainly the belief here is that the government will know very well that the circumstances, which they are now confronting and I expect that behind closed doors they are very worried about it indeed.

COOPER: Matthew Chance, appreciate it. Sara Sidner, as well both stay safe.

Coming up, the "Ridiculist" is ahead. You want to stick around for that it involves a French actor who you many know urinating on an aircraft. First, Isha Sesay has the serious stuff "360 Bulletin." Isha --

ISHA SESAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, the United Nations is moving some of its personnel out of Syria because of increasing violence. Twenty six non-essential staff members and their families will be relocated. A top U.N. official was especially concerned about the crackdown by security forces in the city of Latakia. New questions about the stage collapse at the Indiana State Far. A fair spokesman tells Indianapolis station WISH, that the crowd should have been told that the National Weather Service had issued severe thunderstorm warning for the fairgrounds area. The collapse killed five people and injured dozens more.

For the second time since Sunday, hackers have struck a San Francisco Bay area transit web site and published personal information about 102 transit officers, a group known as "Anonymous" claims responsibility on Twitter. It's the latest controversy surrounding the bay area rapid transit system. Officers shot and killed a homeless man last month.

Take a look at this. It's a scary scene in Queens, New York. A driver was pulling a salt truck into a repair bay in a depot when it smashed through a second floor wall and as you can see dangled over a group of parked cars.

Six hours later, cranes pulled the truck back into the building. Thankfully, the driver is said to be fine, but as you can imagine, Anderson, really shaken up.

COOPER: I wondering if there was the driver stuck in there the whole time?

SESAY: Six long hours.

COOPER: Wow, that's incredible. How scary was that?

SESAY: Yes, really.

COOPER: All right, time now for the shots. We have a rapping delight from an unlikely source and I'm not talking about the young sorority ladies we told you about last night. One Ms. Ann Hathaway puts them all to shame on Conan and debut her new technique for relieving stress about the paparazzi. She raps her troubles away. Take a look.


ANN HATHAWAY: It's in the style of little Wayne. I'm the paparazzi. I don't play no yatzi. I pop my cameras up your crotch. I tell people what I see. Don't call me scuzzy making money. Hell, no, I'm not needy. Don't act so hotsy I know you're from Jersey. Scream all you want won't make me stop. I know you like to feel my pop.


COOPER: Wow. She committed to it. I like that.

SESAY: You know, as cool kids would say, she's ferosh.

COOPER: Who says that?

SESAY: The cool kids. You don't know any cool kids. COOPER: Apparently not.

SESAY: Clearly not. Are you going to bust some lyric sometime soon?

COOPER: Bust is that what the cool kids say also?

SESAY: Yes. I could see you doing some vanilla ice.

COOPER: Are you mocking me?

SESAY: No. Does it sound like I'm mocking you?

COOPER: Yes, kind of. Vanilla ice. Doesn't he have a reality show now?

SESAY: Yes, he does.

COOPER: All right.

SESAY: All right, bye-bye.

COOPER: Bye-bye, serious stuff ahead of next. More of our "360" Investigation." It's really interesting. Parents who believe the bible tells them they should physically discipline their kid. We're not talking about slapping in an open hand. We're talking about using belts and rods.

We'll hear one woman describing how she and her siblings were beaten by their father who is a church pastor and a number of pastors now are talking about using this kind of punishment that actually causes pain.

The question is are some parents hearing this and misusing that or misinterpreting that to justify their own bad parenting? We'll talk about that ahead.

There are also major developments in the case of the American woman missing in Aruba. Police have learned new things about her traveling companion. Details ahead.


COOPER: In Crime and Punishment in the last few nights in a special "360 Investigation." We call "Ungodly Discipline," we look at some fundamentalists who believe that the bible calls on parents to discipline their children in a way that causes real pain using anything from a switch to a stick to a belt.

The basis of our investigation was the death of a 7-year-old girl named Lidia Schatz whose parents pleaded guilty to killing her. According to California authorities, the couple said they beat their kids regularly because God wanted them to.

Among the items found in the Schatz home was a book called "To Train Up a Child," which confirmed the Schatz belief. Our Gary Tuchman visited the authors of the book, Minister Michael Pearl and his wife, Debbie who demonstrated how they believe God wants parents to discipline children.


MICHAEL PEARL, AUTHOR, "TO TRAIN UP A CHILD": Rubbing the spaghetti all over your head, you shouldn't have done that at 7 years of age.


PEARL: Are there any marks on you?

TUCHMAN: No. You would hit a 5 year old like that?

PEARL: Yes. Sure.


COOPER: Now many fundamentalist preachers agree with Minister Pearl. One typical example is Roger Voegtlin the leader of the Fairhaven Baptist Church in Indiana. Here's part of an audio recording of the sermon he gave last month.


DR. ROGER VOEGTLIN, PASTOR, FAIRHAVEN INDEPENDENT BAPTIST CHURCH: This evening I would like to preach on spanking according to the bible. Now, this is not a new subject here at Fairhaven Baptist Church.


COOPER: He then talked about the proper way to administer discipline.


VOEGTLIN: What is a rod? I don't think it's a ball bat. I don't think it's a club or whatever the parent can grab at the moment. The rod and scriptures never carefully define, but it's obviously some kind of a stick or a switch and this is it. It's designed to give a sharp, unpleasant pain. If that isn't the result of your spanking, then you're failing, a sharp, unpleasant pain.


COOPER: Fairhaven is part of the network of independent fundamentalist Baptist churches. The case of Lidia Schatz raises the question whether some parents are using the bible to justify their own bad parenting or misinterpreting things.

Jocelyn Zichterman grew up in the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Church. She and her siblings were beaten. She joins us now. What was your upbringing like? You underwent what I think was called biblical chastisement. What did that actually mean?

JOCELYN ZICHTERMAN, BEATING VICTIM: Yes, there are a large network of churches as you mentioned known as the Independent Fundamental Baptist and we use the acronym IFB as a very simplistic way to explain the group.

But the IFB believes in something called breaking the will of a child. So my father was an IFB pastor. He currently is an IFB pastor and he practiced this form of discipline that Michael Pearl is advocating in his book, you know, "To Train Up a Child."

And that could basically mean that our spanking sessions and I refer to it as beating sessions could last anywhere from 15 minutes to several hours at a time.

Because basically these pastors believe that a child needs to have no will of their own. So they will continue to administer discipline until a child is completely docile in a way that they show no negative emotion. That's the goal in the discipline session.

COOPER: But all these pastors say, look, we're not calling for abuse of a child. We're not calling for -- this can be misused by bad parents who are out there who act out in anger and are irresponsible, but that's not what they're calling for.

ZICHTERMAN: Yes, that's right. Even in the segment in the past two nights Michael Pearl said that he does not advocate anyone spanking a child in anger or being out of control. That's what's really difficult to explain to the outside of the IFB.

Because the IFB pastors are not advocating losing control and beating a child to death. These pastors are advocating a very systematic form of punishment that outside of their community would be referred to as abuse, but inside the community it's called spiritual spanking.

So that's - it's a matter of semantics. They would say you shouldn't lose your temper and you shouldn't be out of control. We hear of parents who kill children in our country. We think of parents who lost control completely and then it ended in the death of a child.

But these parents are making a conscious decision to beat a child for several hours at a time because it's something that's embedded within their belief system.

COOPER: You run a web site called where you try to bring together people who say that they were victims of abuse at the hands of their parents who believe they were following biblical rulings. But, I mean, plenty of parents believe in some form of corporal punishment.

ZICHTERMAN: Yes, that's right. When you think of corporal punishment in our country, I think most people would say or I think majority of people at this point in time would say, you know, at a time or two, I swatted by 2 or 3-year-old on the butt, you know, when they ran out into the street. That's not what's promoted within this group. This is a systematic form of brainwashing of these children to again to break them completely of a will. We were to be completely submissive. You can imagine a 3 or 4 year old being spanked, the parent is laying the child down.

They are spanking them. And, you know, if you're a 3 year old, you're going to squirm during a spanking session like and that's squirm is a revelation to them that the child is exerting their will and that will needs to be broken so the parents continue to spank.

So in the Lidia Schatz's case, I believe that they interpreted any kind of bodily movement of Lidia as a willful spirit that they needed to break and so that's why the session lasted as long as we've heard of seven hours.

COOPER: I guess, though, I mean, there's clearly abuse and in the Lidia Schatz case. I don't think anybody in this church would say that was acceptable and they would all say that's horrific. It seems like -- is it fair to be casting against an entire church organization as opposed to just bad individuals who clearly abused a child.

ZICHTERMAN: Well, I think that that's where the history of the IFB has come into light now. ABC 20/20 did a documentary on April 8th called "Shattered Faith" in which they took a whole year to do investigative journalistic piece on this culture. And the findings were yes, this is what's being taught from the pulpits of these IFB pastors.

COOPER: I should point out we called the church for a response and talked to the pastor and did not get a response, but we look forward to continuing that discussion. Jocelyn, I appreciate your time tonight. Thank you very much.

Up next, new twist in the case of an American woman who vanished while vacationing in Aruba including new blood evidence and an insurance policy taken out on her before the trip, our Martin Savidge is live in Aruba with the latest next. And the "Ridiculist" coming up.


COOPER: In the Crime and Punishment report. New developments tonight in the disappearance of Robyn Gardner. An American missing in Aruba where she was vacationing with an American man she met online. Today, police said that man, Gary Giordano had taken out a vacation insurance policy on Gardner.

Meantime, local news report said that a bloody hand print was found on a stone where the couple had been snorkeling. Giordano has been held in connection with the case reported Gardner missing on August 2nd.

Martin Savidge joins me from Aruba with the latest. Marty, what details do you know about the reports of a bloody hand print on a stone near where they were snorkeling or allegedly snorkeling? MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this is coming to us from a couple of different sources. When I talked to investigators directly about them finding blood evidence at the scene there, they said only that they couldn't confirm it. They couldn't deny it.

They called it interesting, which of course, it would be a lot more than interesting. It could be absolutely key to their investigation. But sources we talked to close to that investigation say it was blood on the rocks or it was blood on stones and some said it was actually a bloody hand print.

The reason this all works out is that they've got to figure out first of all is it human, is it Robyn Gardner's blood, could it be Gary Giordano's blood or could it somebody totally unrelated. That's what they want to find out right away.

If it is blood, well, of course, if he's telling a story that she's lost at sea in a snorkeling accident. That usually isn't bloody. So that would be a significant find for authorities but they have a lot to run down on that yet on that, Anderson.

COOPER: What about the stories or these allegations that he took out a travel insurance policy for Robyn Gardner?

SAVIDGE: Yes, again that is huge. If in fact it turns out. Again, when I talked to authorities about the insurance plan, they said yes, indeed. In fact, they knew that Gary Giordano had taken out insurance for himself and for Robyn Gardner.

I said how you'd find out. They said he told us. This apparently was information that came to light in the very first interrogation that they did of Gary Giordano. It was in the first statement he made.

Apparently, he admitted that yes, he had taken out insurance, but he called it and it's what authorities call it, travelers insurance. In other words, if you got sick or ill while traveling on a vacation you would be transported back to the United States.

The real question here is, is there some sort of death -- you know, accidental death benefit and who would benefit as a result of that? The authorities don't talk about the amount and they don't talk about who would benefit.

We talked to other people who again are close to this investigation and say that Gary Giordano told authorities that it wasn't he that was going to benefit, but the money if Robyn were to die would go to her mother.

COOPER: And is he in custody now or what's his situation?

SAVIDGE: He is in custody. I mean, prior to the first -- I believe it was 12 days that he was in custody. He was actually held at a police station. He's now because his stay will be extended in detention for 16 more days. He's been moved to the correctional institute of Aruba. He's in prison. You might not believe this, but his life actually got better. He has more space and gets to talk to people. Something he couldn't do at a police station.

COOPER: Martin, appreciate the update. Thanks very much. Isha is following some other stories for us including new information about another Aruban disappearance. She joins un with "360 Bulletin." Isha --

SESAY: Anderson, Joran Van Der Sloot, the former prime suspect in Natalee Holloway's disappearance in Aruba could be freed from prison in Peru by December if prosecutors don't file their case by then. The family of Stephany Flores who was found dead in Van Der Sloot's Lima Hotel room more than a year ago is urging prosecutors to act soon.

Police in Tampa, Florida say they headed off a columbine-style massacre arresting a 17-year-old former high school student who they say planned to kill dozens in an attack he allegedly outlined in a manifesto found in his home.

And the stock price of Abercrombie and Fitch fell nearly 10 percent at one point today, just one day after the retail slammed this guy. Michael "The Situation" Sorrentino by offering to pay him and his pals on "Jersey Shore" to stop wearing Abercrombie clothes.

So did investor outrage of the insult fuel today's selloff? Analysts say it was more likely a retreat from a recent run up after a better than expected earnings report.

COOPER: I'm not sure they really offered. I think it's all a publicity stunt. I don't know.

SESAY: That's what MTV says.

COOPER: Is that right?

SESAY: Yes, they say they think it's a publicity stunt, but they could probably work some agreement out.

COOPER: We'll see. All right, Isha, thanks. Coming up, Gerard Depardieu takes a leak on a plane. I'm not talking about the root vegetable. The "Ridiculist" is next.


COOPER: Time now for the "Ridiculist." Tonight, we are adding Gerard Depardieu, noted French actor academy award nominee and public urinator. That's right. I said urinator. Last night on a flight from Paris to Dublin, Depardieu reportedly peed on the floor.

Apparently, the plane was on the tarmac and the flight attendant told him he would have to wait to use the bathroom until takeoff. So Depardieu created his own little jet stream or as the French would "oui, oui." When I first heard this story this morning, I thought there was no way it was real. But the airline confirmed it beyond any shadow of skepticism. And by that, I mean, they vaguely tweeted about it, quote, "as you may have seen on the news, we're busy mopping the floor of one of our planes this morning. We'd also like to remind all passengers that our planes are fully equipped with toilet facilities."

City Jet, I would have guess he flies in Continental. The airline was busy putting the pee back in PR, some of the passengers just couldn't hold it anymore and started spilling their versions of the incident to the press. Can you blame them?

They saw an actual thespian actually thes-peeing (sic). This probably won't come as a shock, but several passengers say that he was visibly drunk. I think there's another explanation. As a celebrity he's not accustomed to being told he can't do things he wants to do when he wants to do them.

Things like going to the bathroom. He's probably used to being pampered. I would go as far as to say he depends on it. Put a graphic in case you didn't get the reference depends on it. But it's kind of sad when you think about it. This guy has been in hundreds of movies.

We'll be he remembered for that? Probably not. Will he be remembered for "Green Card?" No. This incident will probably go down as his number one role. There's a bright side. Will you stop laughing? It's distracting.

Now that we know he doesn't have any stage fright when it comes to public urination, maybe he can get together with his fellow castmates and they have a pissing contest. Like a pee off. The movie was about that.

So after he took his solo flight to urination, the plane had to turn around and go back to the gate and some unlucky cleaning crew had to deal with the tinkle. All I can say, they should thank their lucky stars it wasn't Depar-two (sic).

He hasn't commented on this incident. I know you got it.


All right, sorry. Sorry. This has never actually happened to me. You see this on Youtube and you don't think it will actually happen to you. All right, sorry. All right.

He hasn't commented on the incident, but if I know the European celebrity spin machine and I think I do, there will probably be some excuse like he was doing research for a movie role. As we speak, I bet somewhere in Paris they are talking about the miss adventures of an overgrown drunk.

He's entourage reported say that he wasn't drunk and he just tried to discretely pee in a bottle. I'm not sure that version holds water. Chin up. This incident was in all of the paper, but nothing but yellow journalism and soon it will be flush from our memories.

So just go with the flow on the "Riduculist." That does it for us. Thanks for watching. I'll see you again at 10 p.m. "PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT" starts now.