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Target: New York; Gadhafi Whereabouts Unknown; Jack Welch on Steve Jobs; Apple Co-Founder Steve Wozniak on Steve Jobs' Resignation as CEO

Aired August 25, 2011 - 21:00   ET


PIERS MORGAN, HOST: Tonight, in the line of fire, Hurricane Irene takes aim at the entire East Coast. Sixty-five million people at risk.

After Irene does this to the Bahamas, what could it do to the New York skyscrapers and subways? Is New York City now facing a doomsday scenario?

Plus, Steve Jobs -- he taught the world to think different with the iPhone, the iPad and this --





MORGAN: Tonight, the man who started Apple with Jobs, the legendary Steve Wozniak.

And, is this the last gasp of Moammar Gadhafi?


MOAMMAR GADHAFI, LIBYAN LEADER (through translator): Do not leave Tripoli for the rats. Fight them. Destroy them.


MORGAN: The rebels advance and noose tightens for the Libyan dictator. We're live in Tripoli.



MORGAN: Good evening.

My one-on-one with Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak is coming up.

But, first, in the eye in the storm, this country hasn't seen a hurricane threat like Irene in six years. There are estimates the storm could cause a stunning $11 billion in damage if it continues on its current path.

And, tonight, with this monster growing stronger, governors all the way from North Carolina to Connecticut have already declared states of emergency. Amtrak is canceling trains south of Washington, airlines are canceling flights. New York may shut down the subways on Saturday. Millions of people are preparing for the worst of a storm.

And, today, wind gusts up to 115 miles an hour and threatens to dump 15 inches of rain as it charges up the East Coast.

CNN, as you can imagine, is covering this storm from every angle.

Right now, I want to bring in Jim Spellman, who's live in the Bahamas, and Chad Myers in the CNN hurricane center.

Jim, let me talk to you. They're describing this now as the hurricane of a lifetime. You've been in the middle of this. Describe for me the power of what you've been through.

JIM SPELLMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, all day, we got a preview of what the East Coast is going to see, just pounding wind hour after hour, about 15 straight hours of heavy wind, heavy rain, just lashing against this island here. Fortunately, it was just far enough offshore that it didn't do any major damage to the tourist areas.

A lot of viewers will be familiar with Paradise Island, Nassau & Cable Beach -- all those survived just fine. Some of the smaller islands, they're still waiting on confirmation. I understand there has been serious damage there. They have to get better communications set up to do that.

But, listen, this was a very serious storm. I had trouble standing up in it. It was really just a glancing blow.

It's interesting if it makes a direct on the population center on the East Coast, it's going to be serious, it's going to be the real thing, Piers.

MORGAN: Yes. Chad Myers, let me come to you. The latest reports I think came out a few moments ago. Just bring us up to date with the current state of the hurricane.

CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: It is still 115 miles per hour, Piers. It is gaining strength now. It didn't do very well during the day. In fact, it actually lost a little bit of strength here over the Bahamas.

And now, with dark now, there's not as much shear in the atmosphere, there's not up-and-down motion. And so, the storm will get stronger.

And it may very well be a 125-mile-per-hour storm when we wake up and it will be traveling to the north, right in the way of North Carolina. It's just -- I don't see any way that North Carolina gets out of this.

And even for the Northeast, all of the computer models at this point, Piers, either from Boston over to the Poconos, but New York City is right in the middle.

MORGAN: Chad, just explain to me, as a layman, about this kind of thing. What is the probability now given all the computer projections that you've been looking at, what is the probability today that come Sunday, New York City could get hit by this hurricane in a direct hit?

MYERS: That is the forecast. And so it would have to turn left or turn right to be wrong. And so, the chance of that is at least of it happening is at least 50/50. There's a 50 percent of it chance being left or right, but probably the cone, the center of the cone, which we tell you never to look at, but that's the forecast. That's the true points that the hurricane center has been looking at now for days and days and days. That's the likely place that the hurricane goes.

Let me back right through Cape Hatteras, or just off to the west, and right along the Jersey Shore, right over Coney Island, and into the Hudson River. Could be straight up the Hudson River and then across into Massachusetts as an 85, maybe 90-mile-per-hour storm. That's the likely scenario.

MORGAN: And, Chad, even if it misses a direct hit, there could still be some pretty substantial damage, right? Even if it's just a little offshore?

MYERS: Yes, especially if it's a little bit left of the city. This is an inundation map of a category 2 hurricane. This is a theoretical hurricane, it will some day happen, whether this is the one or not. But the inundation takes the water all the way into the South Street sea port, all the way into what has been dug out of where the Twin Towers were, water right all the way down to Battery Park. The flooding area along Battery Park and also up toward the West Side highway.

So, this is just literally about eight feet of water getting pushed into the harbor, right by Lady Liberty. It's the water that gets pushed ahead. Think about this, if you grab a cup of coffee, and you blow on the cup of coffee to cool it off, you see the waves that your breath makes to cool the coffee. That's the -- and you're only 5 miles per hour with your breath.

Think about a 100-mile-per-hour winds taking waves and water from the ocean and pushing that against the New York City coastline. That's what we're talking about. That's the push of the water. That's the surge that a hurricane makes.

MORGAN: Chad, thanks very much indeed.

In Virginia, there are a lot of people wondering what they've done to make Mother Nature so mad at them. First, the hurricane. Now, a hurricane bearing down on them.

Governor Bob McDonnell joins me.

Governor, we spoke yesterday and the situation didn't seem quite as urgent. Today, you declared a state of emergency. And the hurricane has changed direction now and seems to be coming straight at you. Are you prepared, do you think, as a state for what may be coming?

GOV. BOB MCDONNELL (R), VIRGINIA: Piers, it's been quite a week in the dismal swamp and earthquake and now with this change over the last 24 hours and the storm track looks like it would come right across Virginia Beach and Hampton Roads area where there are 1 million people that will be experiencing hurricane force winds.

We've been working on this really for days. But today with the change in the track, I issued an emergency declaration. This afternoon, I gave authority to all of our local governments in the state to issue mandatory evacuation orders. Some have done it. Some are still issuing voluntary orders and waiting for the morning.

But we have been in close contact with all of our local officials, emergency management people, talking -- and I spoke to Secretary Napolitano with my fellow governors in North Carolina and Maryland. We're working together and the answer is yes. I think we're prepared.

But the key is, our people have to be prepared and stay tuned, and take all precautions that they can now.

MORGAN: One of the bigger concerns, Governor, is around New York City, because of the density there, the population, the skyscrapers and so on. Are you concerned about what may happen if it hits directly on New York City?

MCDONNELL: Well, absolutely. They're very much not used to having events of this type along that part of the Northeast seaboard, New York, Boston and those.

But my immediate concern, obviously, is my great state that looks like it's right in the bull's-eye, over 1 million people that look like they're going to be right near the eye, very low-lying areas and Hampton Road, Norfolk, Virginia beach, Chesapeake, Newport News and others, up the eastern shore of Virginia. This is a very bad situation for our state, which is why we're asking people to evacuate, at least on a volunteer basis from the low-lying areas. And prepare now.

That's the biggest thing, Piers, (INAUDIBLE), no matter what the government does, people have got to take precautions with everything, from their pets, to their backup power systems, to all the things that they need to do to protect themselves. If they're in a low-lying area, we're telling them try to get out now, because within 36 hours or so, we might be closing roads and bridges and tunnels in Virginia because of the danger.

MORGAN: Governor, we keep our fingers crossed for you. Hope it changes direction again and goes off safely. In the meantime, good luck with everything in your preparations.

MCDONNELL: Well, we're working hard. I appreciate you letting me come on and warning the citizens to take this seriously. And we're on top of it. Thanks, Piers.

MORGAN: Thanks, Governor.

Joining me now, a man in those monster storms better than just about anybody else, ABC news weather editor, Sam Champion, and catastrophe expert, Karen Clark, who says New York is second only to New Orleans in terms of the flood risk.

Sam, let me start with you. You've seen a lot of storms in your time. How do you rate this one? What are you feeling about it?

SAM CHAMPION, ABC NEWS WEATHER EDITOR: Don't like this one at all. First of all, good evening, Piers.

Don't like this one at all. Eighteen years, I was proudly New York's weatherman. I know every inch of that coastline. And this is the kind of storm we feared and let me tell you why. We'll start with the rains first. We had a very wet August, saturated ground in this area. Anything that falls, in case -- and it could be a foot of rain in New Jersey, four to eight inches of rain in New York City, and any rain that falls is going to be flooding rain. And this is going to be bad flooding rain.

In the wind, with the saturated ground, you've got trees that are ready to come down now. This kind of wind, 80-mile-per-hour constant steady wind in the New York City area is going to take trees down, power lines down. It's going to do a lot of damage.

We know that in skyscrapers, the wind that's at the base of the skyscraper is exponentially tougher on the building the higher you go. Maybe a 50-mile-per-hour wind at the ground, it could be a 70-mile- per-hour wind by the time you get about 20 floors up. That's going to take glass down.

If this track is exactly the way it's planned right across New York City, then the big element of coastal flooding, just another I don't like this storm for New York City at all, you've got a wall of water that storm surge, it's about five to 10 feet above normal coming at high tide time. And then you've got those waves that are 20 to 25 feet all along the Jersey Shore, the Long Island shore. This is the kind of storm that will breach those sand bars, if it is on this track. It will breach the sand bars that are protecting the coastline and drive water in.

And in New York harbor, the way the harbor's configured, when you push that amount of water in, and make a turn toward Lower Manhattan, you're going to get a double height of water, which will flood basically that battery in Lower Manhattan.

So, this is the kind of storm we're talked about for years as being a fear in New York City, and we really hope this storm takes a turn, Piers.

MORGAN: Karen Clark, I mean, pretty ominous stuff there from Sam Champion. Do you think New York City is ready for this?

KAREN CLARK, CATASTROPHE RISK MANAGEMENT EXPERT: Well, New York obviously doesn't get hit by hurricanes very frequently. So, it's hard to imagine that people are mentally prepared for the type of catastrophe that this is likely to be. We hope people will listen to warnings, and evacuate if necessary.

But there are always the cases where people don't heed the warnings. But hopefully there's been enough publicity about how this storm could impact the area. So, hopefully, people will -- if they're not prepared, start getting prepared right now.

MORGAN: Sam, let me come back to you. In terms of the categorization of this hurricane, am I right in thinking if it hits land somewhere on the way, in the Carolinas, somewhere in Virginia, before it gets to New York City, the power of the hurricane would start to diminish? Is that what happens?

CHAMPION: Absolutely, Piers. And you've got one of the best on your team, Chad Myers, by the way, who's really good at this. And I will tell you that if this storm hits as a category two or three in the Carolinas, and the eye is taken off the water for any real amount of time, and if it spends even some time on land, you start to weaken that storm as well.

Even if it were to stay on the water and work into New England, the water's colder. We know it's going to lose strength. So, our guesstimate in the hurricane center's estimate is by the time it gets toward New York City, it is probably still a weakening category one.

But that's a very powerful storm for this kind of populated area. And maybe tropical storm strength winds for the Boston area is what we're looking at.

So, you're right, when this storm hits the Carolinas, it then begins to weaken as it moves north. But it is not good news if it follows this track.

MORGAN: And, Karen Clark, Mayor Bloomberg, I think has 8:00 a.m. Saturday morning, a decision will be taken about evacuation. Isn't that leaving it a bit late?

CLARK: Well, evacuation is a very tricky thing, because we've seen instances before -- it's a very expensive proposition. So we've seen instances before where the warning is given too early, or the issue, and then it's a very -- then there's criticism for that. But on Long Island and other areas of New York, it's really critical that people evacuate as soon as possible.

So, you know, whatever the experts say in terms of evacuation, hopefully, people will heed the warnings. Because these storms can change --

MORGAN: Sam, do you want to -- I'm sorry. Sam wants to comment on that.

CHAMPION: I'm sorry. It's just that we've got 7 million people on Long Island. You can't evacuate Long Island. Even for a storm of the size we're talking about right now, you don't have to. What you have to do is get people out of the flood plains and off the coast. So, the general plan is to move people inland to hurricane shelters if they have them or to be in a protected zone that is going to flood by a storm surge or wind. You just can't credibly be talking about evacuating an island of 7 million people through one interstate that goes in, and factions into bridges and tunnels into Brooklyn and Queens and New York City.


CHAMPION: It just can't happen.

MORGAN: Sam Champion, Karen Clark, thank you both very much.

The battle for Libya, Nic Robertson is there for us live. And we'll have much more on hurricane Irene later in the show.


MORGAN: In Tripoli tonight, rebel forces say they're closing in on Moammar Gadhafi's hideout and they say it's just a matter of time until the dictator is caught.

Joining me now is senior international correspondent, Nic Robertson.

Nic, what's latest over there now?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it seems that the rebels were working on rumors rather than fact, places they thought they had Gadhafi surrounded, turned out not to be that. Chasing shadows really is what the rests have achieved in the city today.

As far as we know, they certainly haven't found Gadhafi. And we're certainly that they have any further, stronger leads than the ones they've been working on, Piers.

MORGAN: I mean, we have to assume that Gadhafi has been planning a potential escape for a very long time. He's been a huge target for years. So what is your gut feeling about how he may be trying to get out of there, without being spotted, caught or whatever?

ROBERTSON: This is a smart guy who's incredibly paranoid. As we know, he's been planning -- he will have been planning for such a scenario, was he caught flat-footed by the fact that the rebels moved in more quickly because he's been surrounded fans believing that his forces can actually hold down Tripoli longer? Perhaps.

But, look, this city is chaotic. You've got kids on checkpoints that are high on adrenaline of success. You have gun loads -- truckloads of gunmen going through. If you posed as a bunch of rebels on a truck, and had somebody hidden in a hidden compartment in a truck, you could get through. Gadhafi has tribes in this country that have been loyal to him, that have been untested by this transitional government and the rebels so far.

So, there are a number of places he could be hiding out in the south, in the west and even in the central coastal areas -- Sirte, his old hometown. So, a lot of places, and a lot of people he could still count on.

So I think that's what we've got to believe is where he is, probably not in Tripoli. Can't rule it out. There are plenty of other options, Piers.

MORGAN: And, Nic, you spent a little bit of time in Libya this year. Gadhafi went on the air waves on radio today, urging whoever's left of his supporters, not to leave Tripoli for the rats.

I mean, how many people are still backing Gadhafi? Do you have any kind of estimate for that?

ROBERTSON: You know what's really weird here is, I went over to the Rixos Hotel here, the hotel Matthew and Jomana were held up in by Gadhafi's gunmen, the hotel that we stayed in six weeks earlier on in the year, the government minders who were working with us then, I met one of those at the gate today, this afternoon. He told me, well, I just switched sides from the government. I'm with the rebels now.

If he can do that, how many of the loyalists can just sort of change their colors, if you will, put on a rebel flag. It's the same sort of thing in Iraq. The Saddam Hussein loyalists melted into the crowd. So, you've got to believe a lot of people have done that here. Yes, there will be some holdout gunmen here, forces still loyal to Gadhafi. But they are not going to represent all those people who would support him.

He's not going to be able to rise up and take this country back. But these are people that could come back in some sort of insurgency, certainly caused trouble for the new transitional council, trying to establish themselves in the government.

Look, they've got to turn these kids at checkpoints into policemen that can run a city. They haven't run much more than a city council until now. They've got to run the capital, 2 million people, and a country of 6 million to 8 million people. They've got huge challenges ahead of them right now.

So, Gadhafi's loyalists, however small they are, can cause a real thorn in the side in the coming weeks, and perhaps even months, Piers.

MORGAN: And amid all this chaos, and seriousness, there was a moment of great high relief, I thought, with the discovery of the photo album of Condoleezza Rice in Gadhafi's compound. What on earth was that all about?

ROBERTSON: What on earth was that all about indeed? Who would have believed that Gadhafi would have found the -- you know, Condoleezza Rice, part of President Bush's government, was somebody that he could be enamored with, let's say.

Well, OK, Gadhafi was becoming to come clean around that time. He had fessed up. He handed over his weapons of mass destruction. Condoleezza Rice was in President Bush's administration at that time. So, hey, perhaps it was tore in (ph) his heart towards some of those people in President Bush's administration. We don't know.

But it shows the weirdness of the situation, and it just shows how unpredictable this guy is.

MORGAN: Well, there's nothing weird about having Condi Rice as your pinup actually, Nic. So, I'll differ with you on that.

Thank you very much for the update. And we'll see what happens next. Fascinating.

Coming up, the man who wrote the book on business, Jack Welch, and Apple co-founder, Steve Wozniak, of the amazing career of Steve Jobs.



STEVE JOBS, APPLE CEO: We think a lot of them are going to get into the home. But we'd like to say they're going to get there through the garage door. People are going to bring them home over the weekend to work on something. Sunday morning, they're not going to be able to get their kids away from them. And maybe, someday, they'll even buy a second one to leave at home.


MORGAN: That was a young and very handsome Steve Jobs talking about the first Mac back in 1984, well before he rose to the top of the business world.

My next guest is the man who knows exactly what it takes to get there -- Jack Welch ran G.E. for more than 20 years. He's the founder of the Jack Welsh Management Institute and he joins me on the phone.

Jack, welcome.

I know you're speaking from your home in Nantucket. And, clearly, the projections about this hurricane are getting grimmer by the minute for that area. Are you worried?

JACK WELCH, FOUNDER, JACK WELCH MANAGEMENT INST. (via telephone): It looks like it's turning in towards New York a little more than here. But we'll have to see. No one knows right now.

MORGAN: Presumably, you'll be dealing with it in your normal fearless way, will you, Jack?

WELCH: I'm not sure. I've got the storm doors on.


MORGAN: I want to talk to you about Steve Jobs, because you've described him as the greatest CEO of all-time, which is one hell of an accolade given some of the other candidates. Why do you say that about him?

WELCH: Yes. You know, Piers, I know Steve Jobs from 50,000 feet. I don't know him very well personally. But I've watched him for a long time.

He just seems to have done everything right. I mean, if you look at the Mac, and then getting thrown out of there and going over to Pixar, making Pixar a huge success, and a big part of Disney now, and then coming back and just creating this fantastic product lineup with Apple, which was dying. No one's done something like that.

If you think about him, you think about him as a great innovator. I mean, what other CEOs have 300 or so patents?

He's filled with style and taste. His products are always just right there, just right. One thing he doesn't get enough credit for in my view, he doesn't get enough credit for his supply chain management. He comes up with the idea, the team fills the product, but then they have to supply millions of them. And you get all those components together and get them down and get them delivered on time, from a global supply chain, is a brutal job, I can assure you of that. And he does that.

MORGAN: Jack, from a business point of view, you've run a massive, massive company.


MORGAN: When somebody of the importance of Steve Jobs stands down from the chief executive job as he's doing, staying as chairman, but clearly he's making a signal that he won't be as hands-on as he has been. What kind of effect can that have on a company that's so s successful?

WELCH: Well, of course -- I mean, you never know. You never know whether or not his successor will grab the reins, has been waiting for a while, knows the rhythm of the place, feels comfortable in his own shoes, and won't be worried about Steve's shadow, but will take advantage of Steve's skills, but go do it himself.

And that's always a dicey thing. You never know when someone's appointed, what strengths they're going to have two years, three years down the road. And that's the challenge.

MORGAN: Because obviously half the success -- I would say -- with Apple were these brilliant presentations by Steve Jobs, where forget the brilliant design of this technology, it was the way that he sold it to the world with these amazing event presentations.

No one is suggesting his successor Tim Cook isn't a brilliant technician, but maybe some people are saying he's not a showman like Steve Jobs. And so, the marketing power of the presentations may not be diminished.

WELCH: Look what they've got in place now. They've got a great retail distribution system. They've got a company that for the last several years, and over Steve's whole career, he's defined what being cool is. And that DNA has to have transferred into some of those people.

So I would say, obviously he's an enormous loss from day-to-day operations. But at least for the time being, he's chairman. I'm sure this impact will be felt. And I'm sure he's confident that the team he's put together can deliver as they have been.

I don't think you're going to see a short-term blip at all. The question will be, two or three years down the road, how this team develops without his driving passion on a day-to-day basis.

MORGAN: Jack Welch, as always, right on the money. Thank you indeed for your time.

WELCH: Thanks, Piers. Very nice talking to you. Good luck.

MORGAN: Good luck to you with the storm. Never mind me. I'm fine. I'm in L.A. at the moment.

Now I want to bring in a man who knows Steve Jobs better than anybody else. Steve Wozniak met Jobs when they were teenagers. They went on to co-found Apple. Legendary Woz joins me now. I love that nickname, Woz. Welcome, Woz.

STEVE WOZNIAK, CO-FOUNDER, APPLE COMPUTERS: Thank you, thank you. You know what, it's a fun part of life to have a nickname like that. I've got to correct you a little bit. I don't know Steve Jobs the closest of anyone in life right now.

I've known him in the past. I admire him. And we have a friendly relationship.

MORGAN: But I mean, I suppose what I meant by that was in your earlier days --

WOZNIAK: I have some insights from early days, yeah.

MORGAN: It was you and him in his parents' garage.

WOZNIAK: Kids in high school playing pranks, you bet.

MORGAN: What was he like in those days?

WOZNIAK: You know what, he was always interested in every technical electronic gadget there was in the world. You know, but he didn't -- he didn't exactly have the focus to actually sit down and design and build them himself. But he did build projects. He built projects that like counted the number of cycles on a guitar string so you could tune it right. A frequency counter.

MORGAN: But you were the guy who knew the technical stuff.

WOZNIAK: Yes, yes. What happened was after Steve met me, and we compared ourselves, what pranks we had pulled, and what electronics -- what we had done in electronics -- and I had just somehow come up with this strange genius at computer design. And I didn't even think I would ever have a job doing it.

So after Steve met me, never tried to be the designer of the pair. He went more global. He always thought in terms of products. How are they going to affect people. It's not how do you connect a few chips together. It's what are they going to do that's useful.

That's sort of a selling point. It's sort of a marketing point. You have to think of the end user. That really should always be number one.

MORGAN: Who would be more successful if you hadn't met each other?

WOZNIAK: Steve Jobs definitely. I actually don't want any credit for starting the personal computer revolution. He's really admired so much today for recent products that I've had absolutely no involvement with, iPods and iPads and iTune Stores and retail stores, all these other things. Everything was so incredible.

Pixar -- who could have so many successes, one after another after another, and really no failures. Nobody ever. That echoes what Jack was saying about him being the most prominent business leader, especially in technology, of our time. Probably the century type thinking. It's just too unbelievable.

MORGAN: You're still an Apple employee, aren't you?

WOZNIAK: I'm still an Apple employee. And I receive a small paycheck. But it's because I want to --

MORGAN: How much do you get?

WOZNIAK: I think the check -- I don't even see it, but I think it's a couple hundred bucks every two weeks. It really truly is small.

MORGAN: Do you have any interest in the company?

WOZNIAK: It should be one dollar1. I just want to be the person who can say, he was on the payroll of the computer -- of Apple's payroll computer for every day since the very start. I've never been off of it.

MORGAN: Do you have a stake in the company at all these days?

WOZNIAK: My wife and I really aren't big stock traders. But we keep two stocks. It's apple and Fusion IO, where I work.

MORGAN: What gadgets do you work?

WOZNIAK: Oh, my gosh.

MORGAN: Are you an Apple consumer?

WOZNIAK: Number one, I use my computer with the full typing keyboard. Because I usually -- when I'm walking around during the day, I am, not one of those people that has to constantly be texting and --

MORGAN: It is an Apple computer?

WOZNIAK: Apple, absolutely.

MORGAN: Do you have an iPod?

WOZNIAK: I have had non-Apple products many, many times. I've had non-Apple computers, and I tended to hate them and not want to use them. I found out ways that I could actually bring their screen up on my McIntosh, so at least I could do it where I felt comfortable.

I have non-Apple phones. It's largely to be -- I like to be familiar with the whole world of gadgetry, and what are innovators of thinking of, new ideas. And what are the best ones? You never find all the best ones in one product. I try to be fair. And I don't always say, I'm going to wind up saying Apple has the best product in a certain category.

MORGAN: Like many people, you have come back to Apple again and again, because the design is brilliant. The technology is amazing. They work. They're functional. They're reliable. What is it about Steve Jobs that made him the genius he became?

WOZNIAK: His way of thinking -- I call it a higher level. You know, when I worked with him, he would go into Apple and he would not have thought out what kind of microprocessor you used, and how many dollars it cost. He would think i higher up. What does that mean to an end user. What can they buy for how much?

He was always a step above and ahead, like a more advanced level of thinking. He was always very fast. He thought things out that you would ask questions, why don't you do it in red. He had five different good reasons why it should be blue, always well thought. They're very brilliant, or he walked around thinking about it ahead of time.

A lot of ideas, you know, that I heard from him, ten years later, I'm finally coming around and they're coming to me.

MORGAN: Let's have a little break, come back and talk about the early days again. Also, I want to know, what was he like to work with? Is he fiery, temperamental, demanding? Is he ruthless? What is the real Steve Jobs like?



STEVE JOBS, CO-FOUNDER AND FMR. CEO, APPLE: Thanks for coming. Thank you. Thank you.


MORGAN: Steve Jobs in March unveiling the iPad II, getting a standing ovation from his adoring public. Back now with my guest Steve Wozniak.

You always get invited by Steve to that event? Is that right?

WOZNIAK: He's very gracious. I'm very thankful. Those events mean so much to me. Oddly, I'm almost always in town when they have them, not 100 percent.

MORGAN: Why do they mean so much to you?

WOZNIAK: You know, it's products -- oh, just like Steve Jobs, I grew up thinking the technology products are the hottest area of the world. And you might live in another part of the country and you might think, oh, it's making furniture. But to us it was electronics.

That will define the state of the art that we're at for being able to make things. But now it's gone further, especially with apple, especially these products under Steve. It changes the way we live our lives.

You walk around, what you're choosing to do, especially the mobile devices Apple's come out with. It sets a trend for the world. Here's a new category device, new category of device. Life is going to be different forever.

MORGAN: In 20 years time, when my kids are kind of my age, what will the technology be like? How much faster, better, sleeker? What do you think it's going to be going to?

WOZNIAK: Normally I would said, well, 20 years is too far to predict and some very futuristic ideas like computers are going to be conscious and they're going to speak just like you and me. You're not going to be able to tell the difference. It's like Watson on "Jeopardy," you know, that computer.

So -- and these computers are going to have their own ideas and they're going to get kind of rid of the humans that slow things down. So the computer --

MORGAN: They won't be able to host shows like this, will they?

WOZNIAK: But I don't know if that is going to happen in 20 years. You don't know if it's going to happen in 20 years. It is going to happen some day. We still don't know how the mind works.

MORGAN: Here's the thing I love. You've got this extraordinary thing on your wrist. And Matt Keever (ph) has Tweeted me saying it looks like Woz has a grandfather clock on his wrist. It's more like one of the old Apple computers. What is that?

WOZNIAK: It looks like it to somebody who sees it. But I wear it and I never notice it. You never look at it when you wear it and you don't know how big it is.

But I saw it on somebody else once. And I said, oh, my God, that's kind of obnoxious. I don't know if you're old enough to remember when televisions and radios had vacuum tubes that heated up.

MORGAN: I know what you mean. WOZNIAK: These are vacuum tubes from the old days. They probably haven't been made in 40 years. There's a couple of them in there, a little battery that gets electronically boosted up to 140 volts, more than we have in the wall in the United States.

MORGAN: Can you actually tell the time on it?

WOZNIAK: Yes. You turn your wrist, hours and minutes. Hours and minutes. And you know what, I will tell you the truth. I honest to God didn't want something just because it's geeky and odd and unusual. I do like things like that, but only for one week I was going to show it around to my geek friends, and then I was going to go back to my nice, pretty, thin Movato (ph) watch that I love, with hands and a dial.

I found out my eyes like it this way much better. It's nice, big, visible characters. Its's the way I speak the time, hours, minutes.

MORGAN: Why is it that the greatest computer company of all-time was built by two guys named Steve? What is it about Steve?

WOZNIAK: You know what? There's an awful lot of other great companies that are changing life a lot today. You might have Twitter. You might have Facebook. You might have Google. You might have Yahoo! And a number of others, even MySpace. They tended to be founded by young people, just out of college, having ideas that none of the big powers with money and the huge emphasis people could create.

Nowadays, Apple is about the only company that's so huge and really creating the greatest products ever.

MORGAN: I've heard that you occasionally -- you don't speak to Steve a lot, but when you do, you often ring him with little suggestions about glitches on the products.

WOZNIAK: In the old days, I used to do that. It got to a point where one time I mentioned a glitch in a product. It was really dumb, like if you're in a hotel, you know how you have to dial nine for the outside line, and then you dial one before the area code? It switched the one and the nine. So you couldn't.

I told him that. They fixed it. Unfortunately, they took a part out of that program that I used and counted on. I would use it to dial into my house and join my home network, if that makes sense to anybody. So ever since then, I thought, oh, my gosh, I don't want to risk changing anything that I like.

MORGAN: Have you spoken to Steve since he got sick?

WOZNIAK: He's been sick at different stages. I've spoken a few times, I don't speak like very often. But yes, I have. Sometimes he would sound very energetic and speak of how good he feels. Other times he might sound like he's tired.

So I don't judge. I don't ask personal questions. What is your health like? I wouldn't ask you. I wouldn't ask you what's going on in your life.

MORGAN: I suppose most people assume that the only reason he would give up the reins in the way he has is because he must be feeling like it's to much for him health-wise.

WOZNIAK: Yes. And I have trained myself to be very much not an assumption. I kind of believe what I hear, and what Steve presents. What he wants us to know about his health, he'll tell us. And the way he makes it sound is, well, he'll still be around, and he'll still be sort of involved with the helm of Apple. He's just giving up the day- to-day job. It's as thought it's a lot for him.

You know what? He has sacrificed an awful lot to create what he's created. I am so thankful. The great products of Apple, they come from an awful lot of great people that he's hired, too, or built the structure to hire. But they come from methods of making decisions. What is right? What's good? Why do you go off in a different direction than somebody else? How do you develop a product in like a little building that's so secret that you can make your own decisions and not be influenced by other people telling you how you have to do it?

So he's done all these great products that came from his methodology. his workings, his philosophies.

MORGAN: Do you get -- I'll make you think about this over this break. Do you get to have a 350 billion dollar business without being ruthless. That's what I want to know. Don't answer yet. Think about this carefully.




JOBS: No one wants to die. Even people who want to go to heaven don't want to die to get there. And yet death is the destination we all share. No one has ever escaped it. And that as it should be, because death is very likely the single best invention of life. It's life's change agent. It clears out the old to make way for the new.


MORGAN: Poignant words from Steve Jobs, speaking at Stav (ph) University's commencement in 2005. Back with me now is co-founder of Apple, Steve Wozniak.

You've had quite a life yourself. The message clearly from Steve is you've got to live life to the full. You are the personification.

WOZNIAK: A lot of what I get I get in life is only because Steve Jobs keeps doing these great things with Apple and it always rubs off on me.

MORGAN: Reflected glory, is it? You are the guy that invented the first new Apple computer. You are entitled to the credit.

WOZNIAK: I look back and that's actually true.

MORGAN: The other thing which I think is even more outstanding is you managed to survive going out with Kathy Griffin.

WOZNIAK: Oh, I love Kathy. I love humor.

MORGAN: She's terrifying.

WOZNIAK: She's so brilliant.

MORGAN: She might be brilliant to you. She was in here and she straddled this desk like a screaming banshee and came at me. Terrifying.

WOZNIAK: With Larry King, she'd come in. He asked her once, you had sex with Steve Wozniak? And she said yes, just as plain and clear, and Larry believed it and the whole world believes it. It's totally made up.

MORGAN: Really It's invented? You must set the record straight. So you and Kathy are just good friends, yeah?

WOZNIAK: Very good friends. I admire her so much. And it was such an accident that we got together. People were actually sending me links to sights that said we were dating. I didn't know who she was. I had never heard of her. I don't watch television.

I've heard of Patty Griffin, the folk singer. So eventually she called up and apologized. Later she called up and said, you're going to take me to the Emmys. OK. Yeah.

MORGAN: She is fabulous. Let's get back to Steve Jobs for a moment. Because I have asked you now about this ruthless streak. I just don't think anyone can be as successful as him without having that streak. Did he have it? Does he have it?

WOZNIAK: It isn't like you are ruthless or you're not ruthless. Everybody has a mixture. There are times in our life when we're ruthless. There are things that might upset me and I'm ruthless. Most of the time, I'm very, very pacific and just peaceful going.

Steve has reputations -- stories people have told when he had to push people hard to get the great things done. So the stories sound like sad sometimes. Like people will say, I would never work for him again. He went over the line.

And you know, but I don't think you can have a great company without some ruthlessness, some push from the top. You've got to have a good mixture. I think a good mixture of the humor, the laughter, the lightness and making sure that things aren't just lackadaisical and you slack off.

The sort of perfection that Steve is known for always looking for and spotting, in design in particular, in fonts, in colors, in things, how they are laid out, that's very important. You really have to ride people to make sure you're getting it. Or set an example, so from then on, they've learned, they've got to be responsible like that.

MORGAN: Lots of people are sort of speculating about what his legacy is and will be and so on. Obviously he's alive and fine. He's going to be chairman of the company. It's not like he's leaving completely.

But in terms of what you know of him, what do you think he'd like the legacy to be, the Steve Jobs legacy to be?

WOZNIAK: Giving mankind the most useful, helpful tools we've ever had in our history. The ones that we would enjoy the most, the ones that we not only use but we love, that we come to love like a human being. A very, very important step in getting those computers closer to real human beings.

MORGAN: Was the computer, which you were very instrumental in producing -- is that going to be the greatest invention of the last millennium?

WOZNIAK: It's hard to say, because a computer used to be a device on its own. And we've gone so far beyond that to make devices that actually do what we want to do, which is download a song, play a song. Well, yeah, every device in the world has a computer inside, a small computer, tons of programming, tons of hardware, billions more parts than we had when we started Apple.

So you could call it a computer, things that are a computer. I could call my iPhone a computer and it is. It's the greatest computer ever. But it's not in the same sense a computer was when we started the company. So I think we've gone beyond that.

It's just computerized technology, really. It's just today's modern devices for making mankind more -- making the individual more powerful. They can do more things with their life they want to do.

MORGAN: Let me put a flip side here. I've got plea three sons. They're all computer crazy. They spend -- even the 10-year-old is on sort of World of War Craft days at a time. There is a slight negative. You guys, you and Steve and Bill Gates and others, you've basically taken the world's children and you've stuck them into little darkened rooms. And they should be out playing konkers and soccer and stuff like that, shouldn't they?

WOZNIAK: I don't think we can stop the effect of the future, the future that we've created giving them devices. A lot of kids, yes, seem to get addicted like you get addicted to drugs. You know what? There's a lot of different types of learning in this world. You can go to school and be educated or you can go out on the street and talk to people. You can ask questions.

When Steve went to college -- I drove him up to his first days of college. They gave him a sheet telling him what classes he had to take. He was so free-minded. He wants to be in control of his own life, he's so smart. He didn't want to take their classes. He just wanted to go and attend fanciful classes on Shakespeare or quantum physics, you know. Yes, what colleges are supposed to be about.

So he did not -- no, he didn't go to the classes they gave him ever. He didn't necessarily drop out. He just -- so there are different ways of learning. And even video games can be types of learning logical approaches. People would say, computer logic? What does that ever teach you of life? It really leads you to a lot of the decisions you'll make, you know, ways, approaches.

MORGAN: We started this with Jack Welch saying he's the greatest businessman that there's been. Would you agree with that?

WOZNIAK: Oh, absolutely. Oh, my gosh. Well, I don't know businessmen. I come from the technology. But in the technology sphere, the accomplishments he's had there could be no other human being that ever did. There could be people that were at the top of great companies that develop great electronic projects but never as many as Steve Jobs. And he's done it outside of technology.

MORGAN: He has.

WOZNIAK: So that means as a businessman, he's got some guiding principles that don't let junky little -- don't let good products out. Only the absolutely unbelievable great ones.

MORGAN: I think if he was here, he would say he wouldn't have done it without you. And so it's been a great pleasure for me to meet you.

WOZNIAK: I think he'd just say it was fun.

MORGAN: Three hundred and fifty billion dollars worth of fun. Steve Wozniak, thank you very much indeed

WOZNIAK: Thanks, Piers.

MORGAN: When we come back, I want to go live back to Chad Myers in the CNN hurricane center for the latest on Irene.


MORGAN: Go straight to Chad Myers in the CNN Hurricane Center for the latest on Irene. Chad, just give me what's going on right now.

CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Piers, the eye is back. That means this storm is getting bigger. This will be a much bigger storm by morning. All day today, the eye was torn up here in the Bahamas. You couldn't find it. And when you don't have an eye, you don't have the circulation. You don't have the lift and you don't have that engine to make the hurricane bigger.

Now we have the engine. It is back. It will be a category three. And it will stay a three until it makes landfall in North Carolina. Now, there's a chance it misses, but not that big of a chance.

Then it rolls on up all the way to Jersey shore into potentially New York. And in fact, they'll even shut down the transit. They'll shut down the subways if this happens. This is a big deal. Piers. MORGAN: It certainly is. Chad Myers, thank you very much. Worrying time for everyone in the eye of Hurricane Irene.

That's all for us tonight. "AC 360" with Anderson Cooper starts right now