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Suspect in Missing American in Aruba Case to Remain in Custody

Aired August 31, 2011 - 21:00   ET


DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Breaking news from Aruba. The suspect in the disappearance of an American beauty will stay locked up for now. But why isn`t he being charged?

Then, that dad who threw his little boy off a boat. He says it`s not what you think. Hmm.

And how could you not know you`re pregnant? Believe me, it happens every day.

Let`s go figure it out.

It is good to be back from my little experience sending my triplet children off to college. Hats off to all the parents out there that are going through what me and my wife are going through. And my thanks to Chris Jacobs for sitting in for me.

Now, we`ve got breaking news from Aruba tonight. Gary Giordano, the suspect in the disappearance of Robyn Gardner, will remain in custody for another 60 days. A judge determined there is enough evidence to keep this Maryland businessman in custody.

Last week, photos surfaced showing the pair as they left a bar. Witnesses say that Robyn seemed dazed and confused. These are the last known photos of her. There they are right there.

Now, what happened next? She does seem a little unsteady on her feet if you look carefully at that picture. The mystery begins. Where, what happens next?

Watch this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news tonight out of Aruba. A judge orders Gary Giordano to remain in custody another 60 days.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He says Robyn vanished while they were snorkeling, but no one really knows for sure if they ever even entered the water.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a hearing, and prosecutors go before a judge to basically ask the judge, we need to keep this man behind bars, we`re building a case against him. What evidence do they have? What are we talking about? Police reports showing blood found on the beach.

NANCY GRACE, HOST, "NANCY GRACE": Not a single witness places Gardner at Baby Beach, in the water, or snorkeling.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m 100 percent sure that she wouldn`t have gone snorkeling.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does the fact they are holding him another 60 days mean they have more evidence?


PINSKY: That`s what we`re going to discuss.

Let`s get to my guests and the new developments. Joining me tonight is Robyn Gardner`s roommate and friend, Christina Jones. And live now in Aruba, CNN reporter Martin Savidge.

Martin, please walk us through today`s developments.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it began this morning at around 9:00 at the KIA prison. That`s where Gary Giordano has been held for the last 16 days.

The judge came to him. There was also a defense attorney, Michael Lopez, and then on top of that, there`s the prosecution. And for over an hour, the defense and the prosecution laid out their arguments.

The prosecution wanted 60 days. The defense said, look, you haven`t got any real proof here. You might have your suspicions, but Gary Giordano should be set free and allowed to go back to the United States.

It lasted a little over an hour. And then, many hours later, 4:15 in the afternoon, which many court observers say they never heard of a detainment hearing taking that long for a judge to decide, the judge came out and said maximum, 60 days, gave everything the prosecution wanted.

Gary Giordano is going to be sitting in that cell until either late October or early November. And that`s how the ruling came down, with no explanation as to what evidence may have swayed the judge to decide as she did.

PINSKY: Well, Martin, that`s what I`m curious about. So the decision goes in favor of the authorities. Sixty more days they`re going to hold Gary in jail.

Does that mean that there`s likely to be even more evidence forthcoming?

SAVIDGE: In theory, that`s exactly what it`s supposed to mean, because every time that Giordano would go before a judge to talk about further detainment, the level of proof that the prosecution has to provide goes that much higher. The argument that they make to the judge has to be that much stronger.

So the presumption is if you`ve got 60 days -- many people thought it would be only a 30-day extension, but 60 days, that the argument or the evidence must have been pretty good. However, this is also the island that has the cloud of the Natalee Holloway case over it. Some suspect maybe they are holding him simply to show that they are serious about investigating this case, but not necessarily that they have a solid lock on proof.

PINSKY: And Martin, so we all understand what this means. He`s going to be held 60 days, and then, unless there`s something really sort of surprising in the evidence, he`ll then be allowed to go free?

SAVIDGE: Well, certainly the possibility. I mean, once you get to that 60-day period, then it`s possible the prosecution could ask for more time. But it`s expected then you`re really going to trial. And it`s at that point that you probably will hear the charges.

Remember, he`s not been charged yet. But the system works here that you don`t get charged until just before going to trial. The question is, you`re really going to find out if it`s put up or shut up time for the prosecution here.

PINSKY: And finally, if they don`t find a body, is that going to be enough to charge him with a crime, if they don`t find that ultimate evidence?

SAVIDGE: It`s an excellent question, and that was the question that basically came down in the Natalee Holloway case. You know, why was not Joran van der Sloot at least charged? Because they didn`t have a body.

They don`t have a body here. They are looking. They want to find evidence, solid evidence. But they haven`t found it.

PINSKY: Thanks, Martin. I hope we don`t have another Natalee Holloway situation on our hands here.

Christina, I want to turn to you, and I want to thank you again for being back on the program.

To me, you are -- for those of us trying to understand this case, you are perhaps the most important -- I don`t want to call you a witness -- friend, associate that I have spoken to in the time since this story has broken. So let me just start with a simple question.

Do you have a reaction to Gary being held for 60 more days?

CHRISTINA JONES, ROBYN GARDNER`S ROOMMATE AND FRIEND: You know, today has just been kind of a trip, really. I have felt sick about it all day, although I had faith that they were going to keep him for 60 days. But, of course, since this morning, and then waiting to find out that they were going to keep him, has been a bit of torture.

But I wouldn`t imagine them to release him, given the history with Aruban authorities. So I`m not surprised, but, you know, I was prepared to be optimistic about this.

PINSKY: Christina, you knew, again, both the people involved in this story. You knew them both probably better than anybody else I have spoken to. Her boyfriend, obviously, knew Robyn. But you knew both these folks.

I want to -- please help us understand this. This Gary fellow, who we are all looking at with great -- I don`t know what the right word is -- we really are holding him accountable, at least the court of public opinion is. Should we be?

Is that who this guy is? Should we be gleeful that this man is being held another 60 days until enough evidence can be generated to really put it to him? Or is this a guy that you think is being perhaps -- because of this nefarious situation, he got himself in a sling, but maybe he is being unjustly held? Do you have any feeling about this?

JONES: Well, it`s kind of scary for me to respond because I know that he has cable in the jail cell, and so, I mean, do I sit here and say do I think the guy is a slime ball? Yes, I do. But do I know what happened between Gary and Robyn? I don`t.

Only Gary knows. So I don`t want to --

PINSKY: Christina, listen, and I don`t want to put you in any kind of jeopardy, and I don`t want you to feel uncomfortable with my questions.

JONES: I know.

PINSKY: And you know I have pushed you pretty hard. But the fact that you know him and you can say that about him, did you advise her in any way to stay away from him or not to go down there with him?


PINSKY: You did?

JONES: Yes. Gary wasn`t allowed to visit our house. He wasn`t allowed to come over. I have never had a good vibe about Gary.

You know, like I said, I know awful things about him. So these stories from other women, they are no surprise to me.

I didn`t want her to go to Aruba, but I kind of understood why she was going at the same time. You know, she is a grown woman. Like, how do you stop a 35-year-old from boarding a plane? You don`t.

PINSKY: Well, I get it. It must be heartbreaking for you having been the one that was saying hey, don`t go, and then she goes and the worst possible thing happens. Can you share with us -- again, I hate the fact that it seems like you feel actually frightened by this guy.


PINSKY: And I certainly don`t want to put you in the position of -- that`s not OK, that we put you in that position. So please don`t --


JONES: I don`t think you`re putting me in this position. I`m here to be a voice for Robyn.

She`s a victim. I`m hearing all this awful -- you know, awful things about Robyn lately that are all coming out from the media.

I choose who to speak to. I like you, Dr. Drew, so I choose to talk to you.

I`m not saying anything -- you know, do I think he did it? Yes, I think he did it. Does most of America? Yes, we think that this guy did it to her and we can`t find the body.

PINSKY: That`s right. We think something horrible happened. It kind of smells of it.


PINSKY: But let`s keep this conversation going. I have to take a break, so let me just say that the main suspect, of course, as we`ve said, remains jailed. The police are looking at other possible suspects.

Are they? I don`t know. We`ll have to ask about that.

Plus, there`s a new video that shows Robyn Gardner at a bar right before she vanished. There is that picture.

Christina, it must break your heart to see that.

Please stay with us. We`ll be right back with more on this story.



FRANK GIORDANO, GARY GIORDANO`S FATHER: He`s been put in isolation. But it`s not just his isolation, it`s ours as well. He is very close to the kids. He`s almost a big kid himself. They love coming over to his house.


PINSKY: That is Giordano`s father, defending his son yesterday on NBC`s "Today Show."

Now, with the breaking news tonight out of Aruba, Giordano`s father will have to wait another 60 days before Gary might be able to come home. The judge ruled today that Giordano, the prime suspect in the disappearance of Robyn Gardner, is to remain in custody for two more months.

Giordano claims that Robyn Gardner was swept out to sea while they were snorkeling. You`ve heard in the tapes, and I`m going to say it again here today, that friends say there`s no way this woman would have gone snorkeling. She didn`t even like to put her head under water. And there`s further evidence that Giordano is the beneficiary of her travel insurance policy, a $1.5 million payoff.

Now, was this the evidence the judge needed to keep Giordano in custody?

Attorney Stacey Honowitz is joining me now.

Stacey, the legal process in Aruba versus the U.S. is different. Can you tell us how different they are?

STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Well, here you can hold them if there`s reasonable suspicion to think that they were involved in the murder. You can take them in and hold them.

And if you remember the Joran van der Sloot case, Dr. Drew, they were taken in custody, then they were released. Then the Kalpoe brothers were put in custody and released. And it was a back-and-forth type of situation.

In the United States, they are charged, they`re held, they`re given a bond. If they can`t make bond, they stay in custody. That`s the difference.

Here, what Marty Savidge was saying is 100 percent right. The prosecutors had to go in, and there had to be some form of better evidence than the last time they went in, in order for the judge to hold them. And now the judge is saying, I think I`ve seen enough now to hold another 60 days, but you`d better come up with something more in order for us to charge him and to try him.

Now, there`s a lot of evidence and circumstantial that we have been hearing that anybody hearing this would say, listen, it`s got to be him. Here`s a guy that takes her down to Aruba. He`s got a history, he`s got a violent background.

Two days after she goes missing, in a presumed snorkeling accident, he tries to cash in the insurance policy without searching, without trying to find her. And so all of this points to him being the prime suspect.

Is it enough, though, without a body? And that`s what we`re waiting to see.

Now, there`s other witnesses that have come forward and said, we saw them arguing on the beach. I think a witness came forward later on that said -- there was something to the effect of he said, "I`m going to kill her."

So this might have been some of the evidence that was presented today in order for this judge to keep him another 60 days.

PINSKY: Stacey, are we going -- you`re saying maybe. Is there some point where the public is going to get access to what`s going on in the courtroom, or is that going to be only after this is all done?

HONOWITZ: I think it`s probably it`s going to be after it`s all done, and the reason why is because I think they realize what went on in the Natalee Holloway case. We dissected it every single night on the air, little bits and pieces were coming out, evidence was spoken about that really wasn`t there.

And so I think they`re going to keep everything very close to the vest and they`re going to wait until an actual charge is brought down, or if he`s released, he`s released. I mean, right now, we are just hearing bits and pieces. And like I said, the public is just wondering, why isn`t he being charged?

Well, right now, there just isn`t enough. There`s a lot of circumstances that lead us to believe he is the prime suspect. But of what?

And until maybe a body is found, or there`s something concrete, we`re just going to have to wait and see. Right now it is being kept very secretive, and I think they are doing that on purpose.

I don`t think they want it to be another situation like it was with Holloway. If you remember, Dr. Drew, they were boycotting traveling to Aruba because of what was going on. They don`t want another situation like that.

PINSKY: Yes, I understand, although it`s starting to feel like that again.


PINSKY: So I want to switch from Giordano`s family now to Robyn`s family and read you a statement from her family. Here it is.

"We have faith and confidence in the Aruban authorities and the FBI" - - who have been helping out -- "and know that they will fervently continue their efforts to find Robyn. This has been such a difficult time for all of us, and your prayers have given us strength. And we continue to ask everyone to keep praying for our Robyn so that she will be found soon."

Christina, I`m back with you. And again, thank you for being so kind to join us and to answer tough questions.

Have you been talking to her family? How are they doing?

JONES: I spoke to Kelly (ph) today, her cousin, and, you know, she keeps it strong for Robyn`s mom. And I think everybody is holding up as good as we can.

Today was a bit of closure in worrying that Gary would be released. But, again, you know, it`s so stressful for her parents.

You know, you can`t find much free time to talk to them on the phone. I know that they are trying to kind of almost grieve in their own way. And, you know, the media -- and for them it`s overwhelming.

PINSKY: Christina, I want to go back to the questions I was asking you before the break. You answered very honestly, and I just want to make sure that I got this straight, because I don`t want to put you in any kind of bad position here.

You`re not fearful that if he`s released he`s going to take some sort of retribution against you. Is that right?

JONES: I`m not fearful?

PINSKY: Well, that`s my question because I --

JONES: Oh, I think that I`m going to be looking over my shoulder every time I get in and out of my car. I mean, am I going to park my car behind, you know, the building I work in every day? No.

Has that kind of been taken away from me now? Yes, because I`m standing up, you know, trying to speak for Robyn.

PINSKY: But, Christina, we have to do something about that. That is just not OK for me, and the fact that there`s a girl -- a beautiful young girl is gone.

JONES: Well, don`t you think this guy is scary?

PINSKY: Well, if he`s that scary, then we need to find a way to make sure there`s other action.

JONES: Right.

PINSKY: Let me switch over to Stacey.

Stacey, is there any way -- you hear what Christina is saying here. Is there anything that can be done legally in this country, even from a civil proceeding or something so that people can protect themselves against somebody who is actually frightening them about talking about?

HONOWITZ: Well, listen, there`s always people that are witnesses in cases that always say that they are fearful there`s going to be retribution if they say something against a defendant or someone who may be charged in a crime. And certainly the only access to the courts that we have is getting a restraining order.

But there has to be some kind of proof that you have been injured in the past or you`re likely to be injured. You can`t just go in front of a court and say, hey, I`m scared of this person. You`d have a million people lined up every day saying, I`m fearful of this person. So there has got to be some proof.

PINSKY: All right. This is just very, very disturbing.

Christina, I want to go back to you.

Now, to some extent, this story -- let`s try to turn it into something positive for the viewers here. Is it not the case that to some extent -- let`s just think about parents at home and young women at home -- that this is a cautionary tale about meeting online? I`m hearing various reports that they met online at some sort of dating site. Then I hear that it was an adult friend finder.

I don`t know what the truth is. I don`t know if you want to set that record straight or not. But isn`t that one of the things to take away from this, these are cautionary tales about the people you meet online?

JONES: You know what`s interesting? As a 39-year-old female that works a lot, I wouldn`t blame this on online.

I think that, you know, this could happen with anyone that you meet. You could know someone, it could be your best friend for forever, and the next thing you know, someone has a different agenda.

Sometimes online dating can be great because you get to know someone before you actually, you know, get to know someone, if you are following me. I mean, I --

PINSKY: Yes. OK. Well, so -- OK, but I`m hoping that there`s something that people can learn from this so they can protect themselves.

Do you have some message?

JONES: I think it would be to listen to your soul. Robyn knew that this guy wasn`t a good guy, and she just kept thinking that somehow she could, you know, be OK with everything.

She knew that he wasn`t a good guy, and she knew that he has restraining orders against him. And she still moved ahead. I mean, she didn`t listen to her soul.

PINSKY: You know what? And Christina, sometimes that`s not -- and thank you, Christina, for answering those questions.

Sometimes it`s not the fault of the individuals, because if people have had experiences early in life, they are kind of attracted to scary people, strangely enough. But do check people`s medicine cabinets, court records. And if you have access to their medical records -- believe what you see there and then trust your instincts.

Now, next -- thank you Christina.

Thank you, Martin.

And thank you, of course, Stacey.

OK. Parenting one-on-one up next. Don`t force-feed your children. Listen, this is just some general guidelines.

Don`t feed them hot sauce. Don`t throw them overboard or deliberately dehydrate them. How did that sound like for just basic guidelines?

Well, extreme --


PINSKY: Well, we`ve heard a lot of stories in the news as of late about child punishment. We followed the so-called "Hot Sauce Mom" case, where the mother disciplined her child with hot sauce and cold showers. Heartbreaking.

Then we hear about a father who allegedly hit his son and then threw him overboard from a tour boat here in California. We`re going to talk about that in the next segment.

But we have received a ton of feedback from you online, and some of you are concerned and some of you are outraged.

Let`s go to the phones first.

Betty in California, go right ahead.


PINSKY: Hi, Betty.

BETTY: I just wanted to say I never had to resort to physical discipline with my children. And my boys turned out to be great men.

I believe parents have to be a role model for appropriate behavior. And parents have to be consistent in how they discipline their children. First of all, parents need to discipline their children with firmness, then with fairness, and above all, with love.

PINSKY: Well, Betty, thank you for that comment. And let me just say a couple of things.

One is, you know, when you hit a child, you have violated a boundary. And it violates the very fundamental boundary of the body, the body boundary, and it teaches kids, perhaps, oftentimes, that they are not worthwhile and their body boundary isn`t something that they have a right to maintain.

It can be very problematic for kids. But let`s not be pollyannaish about love.

I mean, you have to be very firm. And I prefer to tell parents, be more present when you`re disciplining your child. "Do it with love" sometimes can go to bad places. People, they get confused about that. It`s hard to be firm and loving, which I agree with you, is sort of the big task here.

Jennifer, in Alabama, go for it.


PINSKY: Hi, Jennifer.

JENNIFER: You know, as a child, I was spanked and yelled at more than anything. I am not against spanking my children, but I definitely do not yell at them.

And my question is this -- don`t you think that verbal abuse is just as painful as physical abuse? I feel that verbal abuse demoralizes a person and also lowers their self-esteem.

PINSKY: Absolutely, Jennifer. I completely agree with you.

We sometimes don`t put enough emphasis on emotional abuse, which you`re talking about, verbal abuse. And the fact is that, you know, I think the thing to think about here is terrorizing children and demeaning children.

Again, it`s about being present and firm without violating that boundary of making a child feel less than or terrorized. When a child is terrorized, it changes the function of their brain, and it can change the trajectory of their emotional development and cause them to distrust just about everybody, so they never have a chance to repair those problems that have resulted from the abuse.

Maria on Facebook writes, "I see my brother always hitting his kids. Our father was the same way. I think he knows no other means of discipline. Is there anything I can do?"

I will tell you this -- here is a fact about parenting. There`s always a better way to discipline your kid than hitting. There are just better ways out there. You don`t have to go further than the bookstore or the Internet to figure that out. There is always better ways.

Just because you were hit yourself, and you`re fine, doesn`t mean it`s fine to do it to kids, or that there aren`t much, much better ways out there to do this. So there`s books. There`s Internet. There`s tons of ways that you can go after this.

Please remember, there are better ways. You don`t have to do this. You`re going to have a better outcome, healthier children, and better results on the discipline.

I`m just saying.

Going overboard on child discipline is what we`re talking about here. We`re going to hear the father`s side of the story who did just that.

And later, nine months pregnant and not knowing it until you unexpectedly give birth. That can`t happen, right? Well, that crazy story is still ahead, and these women went through that.

So stay with us.



PINSKY (voice-over): Son overboard, and it was the boy`s dad who threw him off the boat. Made up your mind already about it? Wait until you hear his side of the story.

And later, how can you not know you`re pregnant? Some women who had the surprises of their lives will tell us. Could it happen to you?

JIM AMORMINO, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPT: The suspect struck his son several times and threatened his child that if he would not stop crying, he would throw him overboard. The father did eventually jump in. By that time, the seven-year-old had been rescued.


PINSKY (on-camera): All right. We`ve seen some horrible and even shocking parenting in the last few days. In one incident, a father took his two small kids and his girlfriend on a day cruise. Here is what happened according to the sheriff in Orange County, California.


AMORMINO: My take was that he was not roughhousing because he struck his child several times. The child asked him to stop. In fact, the child stated, stop, you are hurting me, several times. The boy continued to cry. The father said, if you do not stop crying, I`m going to throw you overboard. And he did just that.


PINSKY: An eyewitness who saw the father throw his son overboard called 911. Listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re letting the father on the boar and he`s drunk and violent.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And how old was the child?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The kid, I think he`s like eight or nine or 10. And he`s fine. And he`s on another boat with these kids. Oh my God, this guy is a jerk.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And he is intoxicated?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think so, yes. He`s being like a jerk.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And is he being restrained by people?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The guys pulled him back up on the boat, but everybody`s scared that he`s on the boat, and they don`t want him on the boat, and he`s laying here now. He`s kind of like exhausted from swimming.



PINSKY: Yet, with all the facts and eyewitness accounts, here is how Sloane Briles, the father of the seven-year-old boy described his actions earlier today.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were you trying to kill him?

SLOANE BRILES, THREW SON OVERBOARD: Yes, I was trying to kill my son. No, of course, I was not trying to kill him. We were playing in the shallows.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you hadn`t been drinking, do you think you would have done it?

BRILES: Absolutely.


PINSKY: Just playing. It wasn`t because I was drunk. Joining me to discuss this case, and later, we`re going to have an even more graphic story. I`ve got Michelle Golland, clinical psychologist and Stacey Honowitz, Florida prosecutor.

All right. Michelle, is he just -- is he in denial? Is he scared of what`s going to happen to him or is he serious? Does he really believe that he was kind of joking around, the dad?

MICHELLE GOLLAND, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, he may believe that he was joking -- I don`t think he thinks he was joking around, Dr. Drew. I believe this is an individual who is abusive, physically, verbally, emotionally, to that child. And I want you to imagine calling 911. What it would take if you`re seeing that level of violence that you would do that. He -- I don`t understand why he is still not in jail.

PINSKY: Well, that`s my question. I wonder that same thing myself.

GOLLAND: If he had done this to you or me or someone else`s child --

PINSKY: That`s right. And I heard the fear in the voice of the 911 caller for her own safety.


PINSKY: Let alone this, and the safety of all the other people on the boat, let alone the safety of the child. Stacey, the Hot Sauce Mom did not get a single day behind bars. Do you think that this overboard case is serious enough that he`s going to go to jail and stay there for a while?

STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Well, I hope so. I mean, if you don`t send these people to jail, what kind of message are you sending? That you can take your kid out on a boat and throw them overboard. I mean, we all know that jail, sometimes, acts as a deterrent, and a lot of these parents just feel that they were -- like he felt he was roughhousing.

I got to give the reporter credit if she thought she was going to get a confession out of him, if she thought he was actually going to say on the air, yes, I was trying to kill my child. The fact of the matter is, there are witnesses in this case that saw the behavior, that saw the violence, that saw the abuse. It`s criminal. And I`m hoping he does get time. He really needs to. Just like I thought the Hot Sauce Mom should have gotten time.

PINSKY: And in this case, Stacey, is he out on bail or something or was just nothing charged?

HONOWITZ: No. I think he was charged with child endangerment. I think he bonded out. I mean, they charged him with something or he`s going to be charged. You can`t have an act like this. You can`t have an act of violence. You can`t throw a child overboard and not be charged. What is your justification for not charging? I think he`s out on bond. That`s my belief.

PINSKY: And Michelle, you know, this is another cautionary tale about alcoholism. too. I mean --


PINSKY: I mean, sometimes, and I don`t want to blame the alcohol.


PINSKY: But this man, we`re looking at him sober there talking to a reporter. When intoxicated, people who are alcoholic can become violent and become different people.


PINSKY: And they don`t know that they`re being a different person.


PINSKY: And have no insight about it.


PINSKY: Could that be what we`re seeing here?

GOLLAND: You know, I don`t think so. I think this individual is really --

PINSKY: The bad guy?

GOLLAND: I think he`s pretty sociopathic. And quite frankly, the DCFS in Orange County, wherever he lives, needs to be involved and possibly take his children away or grant custody to just the mother.

PINSKY: So, he should lose his rights to see his kids?

GOLLAND: Absolutely.

PINSKY: All his kids? Not just this son, but --

GOLLAND: Dr. Drew, I want to ask you. This is what he did in public. You tell me what you think is being done behind closed doors.

PINSKY: I think it`s going to be a lot worse.


PINSKY: Stacey, do you agree with that? I mean, you and I and Michelle have all seen these cases and how bad it gets. Do you think it`s a lot worse behind closed doors?

HONOWITZ: Yes. I mean, I think the difficult thing is, you know, we only see these high-profile cases that make the news. There are hundreds of these cases every single day where these parents are abusing these kids. And the fact of the matter is, if you have these high-profile cases, if they`re on the air, and if you don`t punish or send a message, then you have parents that are truly not parents.

They birth the child, but they`re not parents to the child, and that`s the case here. This is a person who even said, sober, he would have done the same thing. What kind of answer is that? So, you try to say that alcohol might have played a role, maybe bad judgment. No. He`s criminal. He has anger issues, and he should not be parenting a child.

And for the girlfriend who gave an interview, and she said, he was roughhousing. For her not to step in while this child is screaming don`t hurt me is another issue, because you need to start charging the people that are right there and don`t intervene.

PINSKY: Stacey, that is an excellent point. And Michelle and I concur with you wholeheartedly.

GOLLAND: Absolutely.

PINSKY: Now, while this one is bad. Watch this, another story, as a father beats a 16-year-old. This is a convoluted story. The father invited this child to his home to fight his son, great parenting. When his own son refused to fight, the father did the following to the invited child. Watch this, and we`ll talk about it.






UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, dude.





GOLLAND: Oh, my God.

PINSKY: Yes. Michelle is gasping.

GOLLAND: I hadn`t seen this video.

PINSKY: It`s awful. And Michelle was literally -- I thought you were going to fly out of your chair.

GOLLAND: It`s really scary.

PINSKY: Yes. It`s scary. And this guy is 220 pounds. He`s 6-foot something. How do we make sense of all this?

GOLLAND: He needs to be in jail.

PINSKY: Well, you know what`s getting to me -- well, I agree with you, by the way. But opening the show, we talked about Gary Giordano. We heard Gary Giordano`s dad go, he`s just a big kid. That`s what just big kids do. Parents need to grow up and be adults. We can`t be big kids anymore. Stacey, as a prosecutor, what`s going to happen to this guy?

HONOWITZ: Well, he`s being charged with aggravated battery, and he`s being charged with, you know, as an accessory to aggravated battery by soliciting and encouraging the child to engage in this type of behavior. What`s going to happen? he`s going to go to jail. I mean, that`s what should happen. I`m hoping that`s what`s going to happen, because once again, you have --

PINSKY: Stacey, I know you well enough to see the change in your demeanor. This one really affected you too, didn`t it?

HONOWITZ: Well, I`ve been watching the videotape, and the fact of the matter is, you know, the only positive that comes out of something like this is we have it on tape, so as a prosecutor, you can vote (ph) in front of a jury and say, I don`t have to tell you. The witness doesn`t have to tell you. A picture speaks itself. Here it is on tape. Find the guy guilty. Send him to prison.

How do you let somebody walk away and give them a slap on the wrist and say don`t do it again? You can`t. You have to deter. And how do you deter? You send someone like this who`s supposed to be a parent. When I said before he birthed the child, of course, I meant, the women birth the child, but he`s the biological parent, but he doesn`t have the skills to be a parent.

PINSKY: He`s not being a parent.

HONOWITZ: You are a parent, but you don`t have the skills of a parent.

PINSKY: Stacey, I`ve turned up to you. We have five seconds. Last word, Michelle.

GOLLAND: And Dr. Drew, there were other adults in that video witnessing this. And the fact that there are adults that don`t intervene is horrific.

PINSKY: So omission is as bad as commission.

GOLLAND: Absolutely.

PINSKY: I love this little trio we have here with you, me, and Stacey. We`re all singing the same tune in harmonies.

Up next -- thank you both to Michelle and Stacey -- could you imagine not knowing you`re pregnant for nine months? It apparently does happen. Some women insist they had no idea they were going to have a baby. They are here with us with their strange but true stories. Stick around.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To me, I was like, I had a miscarriage. Done.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you know your wife was pregnant?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He looks down, and that`s when he said, it`s a baby`s head. A baby? Are you nuts?




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He looks down, and that`s when he said, it`s a baby`s head. A baby? Are you nuts?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are real stories of two women who gave birth and didn`t know they were pregnant.



PINSKY: That was from the TLC show, "I Didn`t Know I Was Pregnant." Trust me. No one wants to get a surprise like this. And you might think these stories are unreal or crazy, but apparently, they`re true. They happen to real women, and tonight, women who are pregnant and had no clue, how could this happen? I`m going to tell you. Watch this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My stomach hurt like I had to go to the bathroom.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Something is coming out of me!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s when I knew that we`ve got a problem.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s my wife. She might be pregnant, but we don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know how far along she is?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have no clue. We didn`t know she was pregnant.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To me, it was like I had a miscarriage. Done.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you know your wife was pregnant?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute.


PINSKY: Heather Harding and her husband, Paul, are joining me. They say they had no idea heather was pregnant until their baby was born in the bathroom. Reesa Hutchinson also joins us. She did not know she was pregnant with not just one but two babies. Her story is incredible. And Dr. Suzanne Gilberg-Lenz is with us. She`s an obstetrician to help me sort this out.

My first question goes to Heather. Now, Heather, you had three children before this with what you consider the usual symptoms of pregnancy. How was this one different? Help us understand what happened here.

HEATHER HARDING, MOTHER OF FOUR BOYS: I still -- I still have a hard time understanding it. My first son, I had the morning sickness, a lot of weight gain. My second son was the same way, you know, the cravings and tons of weight gain. I mean, all of my children, I looked like I was carrying twins. And this --

PINSKY: There you are in a picture, looking at a picture of you before. And are you saying that during this unknown pregnancy, you didn`t look like that at all?

HEATHER HARDING: No, sir. Not even close.

PINSKY: And let me ask you, I`m going to ask you a tough question. You say you gained weight with each subsequent pregnancy. Could have been the weight that somehow made it more difficult to detect the pregnancy?

HEATHER HARDING: Well, I gained weight. When we found out that we had to give him birth and that he was nine months, when we went back to when I had conceived, I had put on a couple of pounds before then, but my weight never changed. I had actually lost weight during this last pregnancy whereas my other children I had gained.

PINSKY: I get it. I get it. And Paul, you are our witness here. You`re the one that is corroborating the story. You saw nothing?

PAUL HARDING, FATHER OF FOUR BOYS: Nothing. Nothing at all.


PAUL HARDING: I mean, believe me, I knew.

PINSKY: OK. Fair enough. Now, I want to play more of Heather`s story. Listen to what the 911 call sounds like.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 911. What`s going on, sir?

PAUL HARDING: It`s my wife. She might be pregnant, but we don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know how far along she is?

PAUL HARDING: We have no clue. We didn`t know she was pregnant.

I could not hear the operator.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hold on a second.

PAUL HARDING: I actually shut the bathroom door.

HEATHER HARDING: I kept continually screaming because of the pain. I felt this awful pain and felt like my body pushing. And I stuck my hand down there, and oh, my God, there`s a baby.


PINSKY: And Heather, you delivered the child right there in the bathroom floor, not having known you were pregnant. What were your thoughts? Were you frightened? I mean, that must have been horrifying.

HEATHER HARDING: Oh, I was. it -- I had -- to be honest with you, I didn`t even know I had screamed for Paul to come upstairs to begin with. I just thought I had to go to the bathroom. And it was literally the last 10 minutes was just excruciating pain, and I was in the floor. During the 911 phone call, I could hear myself screaming. I didn`t realize that I had been screaming like that. It was terrifying.

PINSKY: Ok. I want to talk now to Reesa and get her story. Now, Reesa, you can feel the shock when Reesa is not feeling very well here. Listen to this.


REESA HUTCHINSON, SURPRISED BIRTH OF TWINS: September 22nd comes around, and it was 6:26 in the morning. And like I feel off. I feel delirious. I feel weird.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She got up, went to the rest room, and I got up to go see what was wrong.

HUTCHINSON: I felt dizzy and blurred vision. You know, I saw like two or three of John, and I knew right then that something was seriously wrong.


PINSKY: Now, Reesa, you were pregnant and miscarried, and then got another surprise. You were actually carrying twins and one survived. Tell us about this.

HUTCHINSON: Well, I had gotten pregnant, and I was very, very sick. Morning sickness was awful. And, it was almost unbearable. I mean, headaches, throwing up. Just sick, sick, sick. And it was probably the end of December, first of January when I got pregnant. And then, it was the end of March when I had a miscarriage. Actually, I saw the fetus. And I was gaining weight, and I was already a little overweight.

So, I was really s starting to gain more weight. And once the miscarriage happened, all of my sickness went away. Everything. I was not sick anymore. I felt good. I was like, oh, yes. You know, I was 22. I definitely wasn`t probably ready to have a baby. So, I was like, OK, this is good. And then, I went on. And months went on. And months went on. And then, late August, early September, is when I discovered that I was pregnant again. That something had happened.

So, I thought I was just re-pregnant or something, that I had gotten pregnant again. I did the calculations. OK. This is good. I`m not due until like February, March. I got this. And then, I woke up on September 22. And I went into serious like not knowing where I was, what was going on, blurred vision, and then I totally like went into seizures, convulsions, 911 came.

PINSKY: So, Reesa, you had what we call eclampsia. You had a complication to pregnancy in addition to not knowing you were so far along. Is that accurate?

HUTCHINSON: Right. I had eclampsia.


HUTCHINSON: Which is hypertension and fast weight gain.

PINSKY: Yes. And I`m going to interrupt you because I want to turn to Dr. Suzanne Gilberg-Lenz, because she and I were talking off air. You now heard the facts. You`ve heard the stories.


PINSKY: You and I off air were trying to make sense of this. How is this possible?

GILBERG-LENZ: Remarkable.

PINSKY: How do we make sense of this?

GILBERG-LENZ: Well, I mean, Reesa`s story seems a little less outrageous to me in some ways. And please don`t take this personally, ladies. It`s pretty wild. There`s a whole TV show devoted to it. Obviously, it`s very amazing to most of us. But Reesa`s story is a totally crazy story, but you can see how somebody would not be aware of the fact that they were pregnant.


GILBERG-LENZ: And it also highlights a really important point about unintended and unknown pregnancies, which is that you can have major medical problems that could be prevented or cared for unattended. And could really have resulted in a much bigger tragedy here than what occurred.

PINSKY: So the bottom line is to get obstetrical care, get prenatal care.

GILBERG-LENZ: Well, of course. Of course.

PINSKY: And get postnatal care even if you have had a miscarriage. You need to be followed up on and checked up. And sometimes, pregnancy can surprise us.

GILBERG-LENZ: Absolutely.

PINSKY: Thank you, Dr. Gilberg-Lenz. Thank you, ladies, for joining us.

So, next, how does the surprise of your life, an unexpected baby, change things? We`re going to get some advice from our guests after the break.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have a perfectly, healthy baby boy.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Perfectly healthy baby. No problems whatsoever.


PINSKY: Well, that`s the good news from these stories, but they are bizarre. They are from TLC`s "I Didn`t Know I Was Pregnant." Women who lived it are telling us their open incredible surprise at having been pregnant. Heather and Reesa, how is everyone doing today, and what did you guys learn from this experience? Heather first.

HUTCHINSON: I learned that -- OK

HEATHER HARDING: I`m sorry. It`s -- he kind of fits in with the routine. Our youngest at the time was two. So, it`s not been too much more hectic. There`s more heads to count.

PINSKY: Well, we saw Octomom counting heads every time she delivered a kid. Reesa, you?


HUTCHINSON: I didn`t have any kids. So, to me, it was complete lifestyle change. I mean, I didn`t even know anything about it. So, we had to get into the groove of who was going to baby sit, I had to go back to work, all that kind of stuff. So, it was crazy. And I didn`t even know for four days I even had a baby. So, that was really crazy.

PINSKY: Well, ladies, I appreciate you sharing your stories with us. Dr. Gilberg-Lenz, how do we make sense of all this? What can we learn from it?

GILBERG-LENZ: Well, I mean, I think, obviously, these women didn`t purposely not know they were going to have babies and not do anything about it. But clearly, you need to really connect with your body and to really pay attention to the signals your body is giving you.

PINSKY: So, if somebody has -- if they miss their menstrual period, if they have abdominal pain, it`s important to get medical care.

GILBERG-LENZ: Exactly. And, I think, you know, when you`re busy, you`ve got three kids at home, and you kind of feel like I`ve got that down, I know what that is, I can see how you might ignore it, but, you know, you need to take time to take care of yourself. And you need to never take anything for granted with your health. There`s going to be some conditions that people have where they don`t have regular cycles. Maybe, they have some hormonal problems.

Maybe, they have a family history of losing their periods early. Maybe, they`re near menopause, and they`re going to assume that`s what it is, but you need to be a little more vigilant and on it so that you can prevent a big problem from happening.

PINSKY: So, don`t assume.


PINSKY: And then, how do we make sense of this? What do you think happened here? I guess, some of it could be growth retardation. The babies don`t grow normally.

GILBERG-LENZ: Absolutely. There could be major issues with the pregnancy.

PINSKY: Right.

GILBERG-LENZ: Preterm labor, growth restriction.

PINSKY: So, you could not know you`re pregnant because things aren`t going along normally.

GILBERG-LENZ: Absolutely. Maybe you have a long history of gastrointestinal problems --

PINSKY: You assumed that --

GILBERG-LENZ: Or you knew you had a fibroid tumor, you know, but still --

PINSKY: And sometimes, people, their body habits makes it difficult to detect.

GILBERG-LENZ: Absolutely. Weight is a big issue, too.

PINSKY: But ultimately, you were telling me you think there`s some denial --

GILBERG-LENZ: I really feel so strongly that, you know, we, sometimes, can really convince ourselves of information that we don`t want to know about or do want to know about, and I think that has to play a role in this. It has to.

PINSKY: It`s an interesting speculation. Thank you very much, and thank you ladies for joining us. If you want to see more of these stories, "I Didn`t Know I Was Pregnant," it airs Wednesday nights on TLC.

Now, a couple of words before we go, I want to say something back to the disciplining of kids and the throwing kids overboard. Obviously, this is not OK. I think of it as terrorizing a child. Parent, here`s what happens when a child is afraid of those in positions of authority, particularly those that at are caregivers. Brain development can be altered. The victims, themselves, are prone to addiction. I see this every day.

In fact, addiction -- these kinds of experiences are so common in my patients. It`s virtually 100 percent of my patients. They have unregulated emotions. And on top of all this, once they`ve been terrorized, it`s the gift that keeps on giving. They, themselves, can become terrorizers, and get this, they can be attracted to people with the very qualities that scared them when they were child. You want them to go through that the rest of their life? Terrorize your kids.

Think about. Thanks for watching. I`ll see you next time.