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Famous Politicians, Infamous Infidelities; Michael Jackson Courtroom Controversy; Fugitive Mom On The Run For 32 Years

Aired September 1, 2011 - 21:00   ET


DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go now.

What is it about politicians and sex? The latest scandal involves -- you guessed it -- an elected official.

Plus, the Michael Jackson death trial. The countdown is on. Why won`t the judge let some people testify?

And we will talk to the fugitive mom. She was living the life in suburbia, hiding a stunning secret for years.

Let`s go figure it out.

Anthony Weiner, Bill Clinton, Mark Sanford, Larry Craig, famous politicians, infamous infidelities. We`re always hearing about men in power becoming men in trouble.

Take a look at this.


REP. ANTHONY WEINER (D), NEW YORK: I have photographs. I don`t know what photographs are out there in the world of me. I don`t know what things have been manipulated and doctored.

I engaged in inappropriate online conversations with people that included photographs.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, no he didn`t. Yes, he did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had a love child that his wife and his family didn`t know about.

GOV. ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R), CALIFORNIA: We both love each other very much.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I haven`t had sex with a man in Denver. And I`ve been faithful to my wife.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hypocrisy is hypocrisy, and it needed to be shown.


PINSKY: Those are the big names, the ones that make the headlines, but there are others.

For example, two recent scandals within the past week. Indiana State Representative Phil Hinkle accused of paying a man to meet him in a hotel for "a good time." Now, Hinkle admitted to the meeting, but insists he`s not gay and no wrongdoing, so-called, occurred. Wrongdoing, hmm.

Also, Puerto Rican lawmaker Roberto Arango resigned this weekend after reports he posted explicit photos of himself on a gay iPhone app. Arango says he can`t remember if he posted the photos or not.

Now, we reached out to both men, but no comment and no response.

Those are the recent cases, but sex scandals in politics are like cockroaches in your house. For every one you see, more hiding up there in the cabinets.

I`m joined by author Keli Goff, contributing editor for Clinical psychologist Michelle Golland is here. And infidelity analyst Sarah Symonds.

Sarah, three big questions. How much of this is going on, and why and will they ever learn?

SARAH SYMONDS, INFIDELITY ANALYST: Dr. Drew, I`ve got two questions for you. How on earth do these guys find the time, first of all? And secondly, where are their wives in this whole scenario? How on earth are they doing this downstairs at the computer?

Where are the wives? The wives have to become responsible and accountable. If it was my husband, you`re damn straight I would be annoyed if my guy was downstairs doing this.

PINSKY: Do you think that the wives know it but are either in denial or fearful of sort of rupturing their lives by confronting about this?

SYMONDS: Great question. As an infidelity analyst, I can tell you, there`s two types of wives that get cheated on. First of all, it`s the typical sort of Beverly Hills housewife who doesn`t care, turns a blind eye because it suits her.

The other type of wife is -- you know, she`s in denial, her head is in the sand. She doesn`t know what`s going on.

So you`ve got the unworldly wife and the wife who knows what`s happening. So my job is to wake these women up.

PINSKY: You know, I don`t know. My wife always had a pretty straightforward strategy. She kept a rusty knife hanging by the kitchen door just as a little reminder.

Michelle, you`re laughing at that.

MICHELLE GOLLAND, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I`m laughing at the idea of the infidelity analyst saying how responsible and accountable these women are for their husbands` bad behavior and stepping out. As a clinical psychologist and relationship expert, what I do know is that, yes, it is a symptom often in a marriage if there`s infidelity.

PINSKY: So you`re saying the women --

GOLLAND: But they are both clearly responsible for not addressing what is happening within the relationship and where one of them -- in these situations, the male -- is stepping out.

PINSKY: I think that`s what Sarah is saying as well, is that they should be aware and they should do something about it. And what you`re saying is --

SYMONDS: Live in the truth, yes.

PINSKY: And Sarah --

GOLLAND: Well, so should the unfaithful husband live in the truth, because he is as responsible for not addressing the issue.

PINSKY: Of course. We`re not letting the husbands off the hook. I think what Sarah is saying though is that we don`t think about the fact that it is two people, and both need to be held accountable somewhat.

Now, there`s the Indiana Representative Phil Hinkle, a politician currently in a bind because of allegations of sexual impropriety. Take a listen to this.


PHIL HINKLE, INDIANA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: Despite what the young man says, he`s lying. I never exposed myself to him, I never tried to detain him. I stepped into the bathroom to take care of business, and when I stepped out, he was gone. I shrugged my shoulders, then I realized, so was my iPad when I got to the desk, my phone, my business card holder.


PINSKY: The 2012 presidential election is just a year away. If there`s a political candidate right now who`s concerned about his or her cheating past, what advice would you give them, Sarah, about coming clean? Would you say before the elections, come clean now?

SYMONDS: You know what, Dr. Drew? I would say that everyone has to live in the truth and come clean. And with these scandals we`re talking about tonight, I hope if they are true, or whether they`re not, at least these men can come out and live in the truth for everyone concerned.

A woman does not want to be married to a guy who maybe is bisexual or gay. Let`s get it out there on the table. Maybe this is a good thing. The scandal will actually help these two people move on. It`s going to be painful for a short time, but at least then they can move on with their lives and be true to themselves.

PINSKY: Keli, let me ask you the same question. Should they come out and be honest immediately, and as soon as possible?

KELI GOFF, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, THELOOP21.COM: I mean, they`re welcome to do so. I`m not sure if you`re using the term "coming out" literally or figuratively in this sense. And I think that if you`re on the GOP side, that presents greater challenges for obvious reasons. I mean, because one of the things that`s been interesting about these scandals is I think there was polling done when Bill Clinton was going through his scandal in the White House.

I remember that one of the things this pollster said is that, based on our polling, Americans are willing to forgive adultery, what they`re not willing to forgive is the lie, the lying about it. So that becomes a real challenge here, because every single politician we`ve been discussing in this segment, Arango, Hinkle, all of the others, there`s been a great deal of hypocrisy.

Representative Chris Lee and Arango and Hinkle are all GOP members of Congress, or they`re local elected officials who all have a track record of voting against gay marriage initiatives or gay rights. And that`s really what becomes the obstacle.

I think Americans are actually a lot less prudish than our European counterparts like to think of us as. What we don`t like is hypocrisy, and that`s what we`ve seen in a lot of these scandals.

PINSKY: Well, let me clarify something. I want to be clear that we`re not talking about homosexuality versus not homosexuality. What we`re really talking about, lying. We`re talking about presenting yourself as something different than who you are.

And Keli, I want to go back to you. Don`t you think that`s what is at the core here, is that that`s what people have no tolerance for? And might the GOP -- and again, I don`t have any -- I`m not taking sides in this argument, but might it be better for the GOP to have people who are abjectly honest about who they are?

GOFF: Well, you know, that`s the catch 22 in American politics, right? Because we say that we don`t like people who lie. We want to hear politicians tell us the truth.

And that, in and of itself, is a lie, Dr. Drew, right? Because the moment a politician comes out and says, you know what? To balance the budget, some of you are going to have to give up certain things. If you want universal health care reform, some of you are going to have to go on a diet and quit smoking and doing all these things.

No one actually wants to hear 100 percent the truth, right? And that always becomes the catch 22 in American politics.

But, look, Bill Clinton survived once he told the truth. There`s a whole record of politicians who have survived once they`ve come clean.

But again, what Americans really don`t like is when someone presents a total facade. I think going back to your initial question about presenting the truth, I think one of the reasons that Bill Clinton actually survived is because he and his wife had been kind of forthright about who he was from the get go. Right?

So the American public, when he had some trouble down the road, thought, look, he never pretended to be Ozzie and Harriet. He never pretended to be something he`s not. Whereas you had someone like John Edwards, where we all looked at his family and though, oh, he`s the anti-Bill Clinton. And then he turned out not to be, and that`s what really turned out to be unforgivable.

PINSKY: Sarah, I want to go back to you.

You actually had an affair with a member of the British Parliament. Did you find a similar intolerance dishonesty in the British public to what we`re seeing here in America?

SYMONDS: Oh, Dr. Drew, I`ve had so many affairs. I`m not proud of it, I`m not boasting at all. I`m just sharing.

And I can tell you that these men -- I`ve been around so many cheating married men. If they`re lying to their partner, especially if they`re politicians, they`re lying about everything.

Look at this latest scandal. One of the guys said he can`t remember taking the photo. Hello? Who wouldn`t remember taking a half-naked photo of themselves? It`s ridiculous lies upon lies upon lies.

PINSKY: All right.

Now, coming up, politicians who cheat. Many are married, many oppose gay rights legislation, but get caught in apparent acts of many times gay infidelity. So why is that?

We`re going to address this and more when we come back.


PINSKY: We`re talking about infidelity and politics. Two recent cases involved homosexuality, and both lawmakers were supposedly straight.

Now, it seems a lot of these scandals involve homosexual activity from powerful men who are purportedly straight and some married. And a lot of them oppose gay rights. Mark Foley, Larry Craig, just to name a couple.

Back with me is clinical psychologist Michelle Golland, and Sarah Symonds, who admits to many affairs with politicians.

Joining us now, author Dina Matos. She was married to former New Jersey governor Jim McGreevey during that scandal. And Matthew Breen, editor-and- chief of "The Advocate."

Matthew, I`m going to start with you. Why do you think many of these scandals involve men who lead heterosexual lifestyles but get caught in gay infidelity situations?

MATTHEW BREEN, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, "THE ADVOCATE": I think a lot of these politicians are both victims of and perpetuators of societal homophobia. I think there are -- we set conditions in our society generally where it`s not OK to be gay in a lot of communities. It`s not OK to be gay in religious orthodox communities, it`s not OK to be gay in other conservative environments.

So there`s an overreaction oftentimes. A lot of politicians, people who are interested in power, I think seek becoming part of the big club. Like, I`m straight just like you. I can take part in elected politics just like you. It`s an overreaction to oppression in a lot of cases, in my opinion.

PINSKY: Do I hear you expressing a little sympathy for these guys?

BREEN: I am sympathetic for people who have difficulty coming out of the closet. I think it`s, in many cases, a blessing if you know when you`re 16 or 18 that you`re gay, and you come out, and you can lead your life authentically from that point on.

I have enormous sympathy for people who get caught in a cycle of repression. But it`s an instance where the effects of homophobia have impact far beyond the person who is gay or lesbian. They involve a spouse who didn`t know that their partner was gay. They involve kids whose parents may be divorced because of this.

There are impacts of homophobia that go far beyond the person who is gay.

PINSKY: And Michelle, you said this a reaction formation. You`ve even gone a little further.

GOLLAND: Absolutely. You know, in my estimation, when we look at the Republicans who are so anti-gay rights and homophobic, and spreading that and making laws around that, and then they are caught in these --

PINSKY: Scandals.

GOLLAND: -- scandals, this is what we call reaction formation, meaning I have these -- what I believe as shameful impulses of being attracted to the same sex. And therefore, to quell that, I have to hate that part of me and I have to hate anything associated with it.

PINSKY: It`s very sad.

GOLLAND: It`s really sad.

PINSKY: Sarah, I understand you had something to say on this subject as well?

SYMONDS: Absolutely. Two things, actually, Dr. Drew.

First of all, most homophobes are actually gay. So that explains a lot of the behavior that`s going on with these politicians.

Secondly, as an infidelity analyst, I hear from gay men every single week who tell me they`re distressed of their affair with a married man, a married man who`s married to a woman. That`s why I`ve just set up an organization called Wife School (ph), because it`s time that wives lived in the truth.

Where are these wives? Who are these women who are getting cheated on by their husbands not only with another woman, with another man? Hello? It`s gross.

PINSKY: Well, it`s sad.

GOLLAND: Well, it`s sad, but, Dr. Drew, I am so enraged, because the problem with this is exactly what you said, that in this society, and in our culture, these individuals, these men dictate laws. They change people`s lives. And we do stories all the time on gay teenagers killing themselves.

BREEN: Exactly.


BREEN: And they`ve externalized it. They`ve used it to oppress other people, and that`s where the harm comes in.


Now, let me talk for a second about Ted Haggard. He`s not a politician, but definitely a man in power who fell from grace several years ago amidst reports he was involved in male prostitution, allegations he initially denied.

Watch this.


TED HAGGARD, FMR. PASTOR: I`ve never said that I`m perfect, but I haven`t had sex with a man in Denver. And I`ve been faithful to my wife.


PINSKY: It was a suspicious and odd statement, and Haggard later came clean and fessed up.

Now, Dina, Ted Haggard`s wife, Gayle, was able to stay with her husband despite this scandal. Did you and your husband ever attempt to rebuild your marriage?

DINA MATOS, FORMERLY MARRIED TO JIM MCGREEVEY: Absolutely not. There is no way that I could have stayed with him.

I had no idea that he was gay. You know, despite what some people may say, that you had to know, but I had no idea that he was gay or even bisexual.

And the fact that he lived a double life, lied to me, perhaps to his first wife, and put on a facade for the world to see because he wanted to be elected to higher office, there was just no way that I would be able to stay in that marriage. There was obviously no future with him, and I could not live with someone who was leading a double life, not being honest to himself or anyone else.

I think we`re at a point where we have accepted people who are gay or bisexual and allowed them to live their lives. There is no need for them to engage in this kind of destructive behavior. And it`s a behavior that hurts their family.

PINSKY: And the public. It hurts our system, too. I agree.

Now, take a look at Indiana state representative Phil Hinkle talking about the allegations against him.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why`d you seek out this young man?

HINKLE: That`s just it. I don`t know. I don`t know what was going through -- I really do not know what was going through my mind.

I don`t know what was going through my mind. Did I have a self-destruct attitude here? What was I doing? And I don`t know. I thought I was stronger than that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But this was not an encounter where you were intending to have a sexual encounter.

HINKLE: In all honesty, I`ve got to say no, because -- and I know people are going to chuckle at that.


PINSKY: Now, some may sort of chuckle under their breath, others wondering, what is going on? He`s waffling. He doesn`t seem to know why he arranged this paid rendezvous. Of course sex wasn`t on his mind. Please.

I have to stress that Hinkle insists he`s not gay and wasn`t there for sex.

Now, Michelle, is that denial? There`s this whole -- and it gets confusing, because there`s this whole category of not gay men who have sex with men that the CDC has created to help us track AIDS.

Do you believe it or not -- there`s a category of men who have sex with men, not gay.

Are you aware of that?

BREEN: Absolutely.

PINSKY: And it`s hard to make sense of. They can hide under that one.

Michelle, you have a comment. Your reaction?

GOLLAND: Well, and I have to say, what she went through as a wife --


GOLLAND: -- Dina, feeling that level of betrayal, is horrible. And I actually -- I can understand.

I have seen it before where it`s not always that we know. Some people are -- and you know this -- are really, really good. And I think it is about narcissism. It`s about all that.

But I have to disagree. The reason that in this case, too, with her ex- husband, he didn`t -- he couldn`t be elected in his mind as an openly gay man.

PINSKY: But she`s saying that`s in his mind, and we should come to a day and age when men can be elected and say, I`m gay and I want to be elected. But you`re right, it is the shame that causes them to be such great liars.

GOLLAND: But we don`t live in that world.

PINSKY: I understand that.

Matthew, last word to you. I`ve got less than 10 seconds.

BREEN: I want to clarify, I wasn`t excusing anyone`s closetedness. I think it`s ideal for everyone to be out. That`s the best thing we can do for ourselves as gay people and for future generations of gay people, and for the people that our lives impact.

It would be nice if our society wasn`t one in which people felt the pressure to be closeted. But that`s where we are right now, and that`s what we`re fighting to change.

PINSKY: Thank you, guys.

Thank you, Dina.

Thank you, Sarah.

Thank you, Matthew.

And thank you, Michelle.

When we come back, your questions and comments about cheating, cheaters, and more cheating.

And later, the fugitive mother. She was living the life of a suburban soccer mom until the law tracked her down.


PINSKY: We just talked about cheating, sex, and infamous scandals. Many of you have dealt with some of these very real issues in your own lives. And after looking at our Facebook and Twitter pages, you apparently have a good number of questions about this. So let`s get right to it.

I`ve got Roberta in Las Vegas.

Go ahead, Roberta.


PINSKY: Hi, Roberta.

ROBERTA: I just had a quick question. Do you think cheaters realize the impact their cheating has on their children that are small and still at home?

PINSKY: No, I really don`t think they do appreciate it. In fact, that`s one of the sort of prerequisites to being a cheater, is you don`t fully appreciate or empathize with the impact of your behavior on other people.

Sometimes it`s because you`re in an addictive fog, sometimes it`s because you`re narcissistic and other people`s feelings don`t really have that much meaning to you in the first place. But in either case, you`re right, it is destructive to children and to the partners of those people that were being cheated upon.

I`ve got Ty in Florida.

Go ahead, Ty.

TY, FLORIDA: Hi, Dr. Drew.


TY: Just have a few questions for you. First, how much of cheating is biological? And second, at what point does promiscuous behavior become a disease?

PINSKY: Ooh, it`s a tough question to answer that.

I mean, cheating, I think we understand that there`s a biological imperative there. But listen, there`s a biological imperative for a lot of things that we don`t necessarily then go ahead and do.

There is a difference between men and women. Women cheat a lot as well. They cheat for different reasons.

And like with any human behavior, there`s always some genetic component and some environmental component. And when it becomes a disease, I think the one thing to look at is loss of control.

If it`s something that you wish you could change, it`s causing distress and shame, and you would like to change it but you can`t, that`s when I think it`s someone that needs professional help, and it`s an addictive process at that point.

Sarah then tweets, "Why do you think society is harder on men rather than women when hearing about sex scandals?"

I am not sure they are harder on men. I think they are harder on women.

I think they really hold a very special harshness for attractive, young women that misbehave. I mean, think about some of the people that are in the tabloids. We are ruthless with this. You hear about men in power doing it because that tends to be the kind of guys that are attracted to those positions, and we feel particularly sort of violated by the hypocrisy, as we talked about in the last segment.

On Facebook, Patty asks, "What types of people are more likely to cheat? Perhaps people who are afraid of attachment."

Well, again, you guys -- these are actually more complicated issues than you might imagine. Yes, attachment has a role to be played here. I would say it`s people that can`t tolerate intimacy.

We really think about these as intimacy disorders more than attachment disorders. And attachment, of course, figures into that. But when people can`t tolerate closeness, it`s very difficult to be deeply attached and deeply empathic to other people.

Stacy, finally, tweets, "I constantly forgive my boyfriend for cheating. Am I right or wrong?"

I would say you`re generally wrong. I mean, it`s one thing if you`re a family, you`re married, you have kids, and you want to make this work out for the family. I`ve seen it work out. In fact, more often that not, men that have sex addiction, when they stay in treatment and work this out, these couple could end up in a very good place, or if the woman has sex addiction, for that matter.

But if you`re a single person and this guy keeps cheating on you, get on with it. Get on with it. I`m just saying.

All right. Next, the Michael Jackson death trial hasn`t even started yet, and already there`s controversy in the courtroom. The judge has come up with a very controversial decision that may affect the outcome in this trial even if Dr. Murray is found guilty.

I`ll tell you why after the break.



DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Explosive developments in the Michael Jackson death trial. Dr. Conrad Murray`s defense says their case is being gutted. We have exclusive news about witnesses barred from testifying.

And later, it`s a story that reads like a Hollywood thriller. She was a married mother of three with a storybook life, but it all crashed down when her secret past came rushing back after three decades. Why saving Marie Walsh meant burying Susan LeFevre.


PINSKY (on-camera): Michael Jackson should be celebrating his 53rd birthday this week. Instead, details of his life are being dissected in a Los Angeles courtroom where the judge is laying the groundwork for the upcoming trial of Dr. Conrad Murray. He`s accused of giving the King of Pop a fatal the dose of a surgical anesthetic.

And tonight, more turmoil swirling around the Jackson name. Reports say Janet Jackson will not be attending Michael`s tribute concert in October. She joins brothers, Jermaine and Randy, who have been vocal about their opposition to the tribute.

Here to discuss the breaking is Jen Heger. She is Radar Online legal editor. Brian Oxman is known to Jackson Family for 24 years and was part of the defense team that represented Michael Jackson in the 2005 child molestation trial. Judge Greg Mathis is the presiding judge of the syndicated court TV show, "Judge Mathis." I`m going start with Jen Heger. Jen, tell us the latest.

JEN HEGER, LEGAL EDITOR, RADAR ONLINE: Well, I`m hearing that there are actually major problems with the tribute show for Michael Jackson that is planned to take place the same time that Conrad Murray`s trial is going on.

PINSKY: Seems like bad timing.

HEGER: Yes. Very bad timing. And, Katherine Jackson is also committed to being at the tribute concert which is taking place in Wales, England. She`s also been publicly saying to the people that she`s planning on being at Dr. Conrad Murray`s trial every single day. Now, this woman is 81 years old. I`m concerned for her health just dealing with the stress of going to this trial every day.

You know, she was devastated when Michael died. And then, to put her on a plane, fly halfway across the world for this tribute concert that, you know, they had to have a conference call with some of the fans to alleviate their concerns in the last several days.

PINSKY: For the mom? For Katherine?

HEGER: No. The promoters of the show had to have a conference call with fan groups of Michael Jackson`s, because they have voiced their concerns --

PINSKY: Oh, they didn`t like the idea of this going on during the Conrad Murray trial.

HEGER: Right.

PINSKY: You know, it`s interesting. I have no strong opinion about this trial, myself, but every time I try to report on this trial, I just get creamed by Michael Jackson`s fans on Twitter. Please, guys. I don`t have a strong feeling about this. I`m not trying to protect anybody. I`m just trying to make sense of it so we can all understand this case as we go through it. It`s pretty complicated.

Now, the judge overseeing the Michael Jackson death trial ruled that over a dozen names on the defense list will not be permitted to testify. In his ruling, the judge said, "Discussion of these subject matters are sufficiently convoluted, distracting, and detracting as to substantially outweigh any probative value whatsoever." Brian, many of these witnesses were part of Jackson`s inner circle and may have seen some of his drug use. Why deny their testimony?

BRIAN OXMAN, JACKSON FAMILY`S FRIEND FOR 24 YEARS: I am at a loss to explain that, Dr. Drew. I think that one of the things we`re looking for in this trial is the truth. And I think that these rulings suppress the truth. I don`t see any harm in people such as the Dr. Arnold Klein making his testimony, his statements.

I don`t think it distracts anybody, and yet, it brings out the truth, because there were other people who are giving Michael Jackson drugs. There are other people who are responsible for his death. And to conceal this, I think it`s a disservice to the court. It`s a disservice to us all.

PINSKY: Again, I think people are fearful that, somehow, it`s going to make a slate against Michael Jackson when, I think, the case, Brian, you`re making is that it`s a case against all the doctors that were supposed to be helping him that ill-served him.

OXMAN: Michael -- you cannot besmirch Michael anymore. Every word that was ever uttered against him just ruled like water off of a duck`s back. You can`t harm the image of Michael Jackson. He was the greatest entertainer that we`ve ever seen. What we do want is the truth. And what we`re afraid of, we are very critical of Dr. Murray.

And we want to see him prosecuted to the fullest as well as other people who were in Michael`s life, but to exclude a critical witness, I think you`re asking for a reversal on appeal.


OXMAN: Very concern --

PINSKY: Jen, you say that`s the issue, too.

HEGER: Absolutely. I mean, I was actually stunned that Judge Pastor did not allow Dr. Klein to be called to testify. I mean, I really fear that this is going to impede on Dr. Murray`s right to a fair trial. He`s absolutely relevant.

PINSKY: And result in an appeal.

HEGER: If Dr. Murray is, indeed, convicted.


OXMAN: And a lot of my friends are saying it`s a get out of jail free card.

PINSKY: Oh, my goodness.

OXMAN: And I don`t like that at all. He was not a dangerous witness to anybody. Let the justice system work. Stop concealing the truth.

PINSKY: Now, many of the defense attorneys for Conrad Murray are frustrated with these pre-trial rulings and shared comments with reporters. Here we go. Quote, "A large point of our defense has been gutted, but if we have to go into a tank battle with a switchblade, that is exactly what we`ll do." A lawyer for the defense said they are planning to file a motion asking the judge to reconsider. Judge Mathis, to you, what do you think the likelihood is that the judge will reconsider this initial ruling?

JUDGE GREG MATHIS, PRESIDING JUDGE, "JUDGE MATHIS": Well, I can see many facts that the judge might see in their petition that wasn`t already expressed to the judge. What they can do, however, is appeal to a higher court to try and bring that witness back in which has been excluded. So, I think that would be their best bet. But first, in many instances, you do shoot for a motion to reconsider.

PINSKY: Judge, do you agree with my panel?

MATHIS: But I don`t think it`s going to work.

PINSKY: OK. But do you agree --

MATHIS: Absolutely.

PINSKY: Do you agree with my panel in here that the fact that he`s made these very strong pre-trial rulings are going to trigger an appeal as a foregone conclusion if Dr. Murray is convicted?

MATHIS: I think it will. In fact, I`m sure that the conviction will result in all type of appeals, but this is, perhaps, the strongest leg for that appeal to stand on that I`ve heard, thus far, and this is before the trial even begins.

PINSKY: Wow. I mean, I got to say that that is a very disheartening phenomenon, in fact, to hear from a judge, from an attorney, from a legal analyst. Now, Brian, you`ve known the Jackson Family for 24 years. How do you feel about the timing of the Jackson tribute?

OXMAN: It`s the Jackson Family. What do you want, Dr. Drew? We were born in controversy. It`s going to be controversy. It`s always going to be this way. I have Randy who is my bro. I love him, and he is terrific. He is not in favor of this. La Toya who I talk to most, I would say, two or three times a week --

PINSKY: She`s in favor of it.

OXMAN: She`s in favor of it. Joe Jackson who is in favor of it. I mean, I`m conflicted. And what else would you expect from the Jackson Family?

PINSKY: Well, I guess it`s true of any family. It`s hard to get a consensus going especially when terrible things happen. Crisis creates a lot of conflict, a lot of rupture. Thank you, Jen, Brian, and of course, Judge Mathis. I really appreciate you all being here.

When we come back, the incredible true story of a fugitive mom on the lamb living in Suburbia as a soccer mom until she got busted. You got to hear the story. She is here after the break.


PINSKY: A fugitive on the run for 32 years. Devoted wife and mother, Marie Walsh was living a lie. Walsh`s real name was Susan LeFevre, but her husband and kids didn`t even know that. They also didn`t know she`d been prosecuted for selling drugs way back in the 1970s and had been given a ten-year sentence. Nor did they realize she had escaped from a Michigan prison with the help of her grandfather. Take a look at this.


MARIE WALSH, KEPT FUGITIVE PAST SECRET: He flashed his badge and just said, are you Susan LeFevre, and I just thought well, this is -- you know, this is the moment. This is it.

PINSKY (voice-over): That was the moment Marie Walsh`s past as Susan LeFevre finally caught up with her. Apprehended in California in 2008, Marie had been a fugitive on the run for more than 30 years after breaking out of a Michigan prison in the mid 1970s.

MARIE WALSH: Ran through the woods. The helicopters were out. I figured they might shoot me and I just figured it just didn`t matter.

PINSKY: Then 21, she was 14 months into a 10-year sentence for a drug deal she denies to this day. Marie`s husband and three kids had no idea about her dark past until witnessing her arrest at their home in San Diego.

MARIE WALSH: I really thought I was going to die a few times. I just went into these terrible panic attacks and collapsed on the floor, had to go to medical aid. I just -- I`ve never had anything like an anxiety or panic attacks.

PINSKY: After a terrifying year behind bars where Maria endured severe abuse from prison guards, a Michigan parole board placed her on probation, and she was released.

MARIE WALSH: Oh, my goodness. I -- Mainly, I`m just really happy to see my family and husband.


PINSKY (on-camera): Marie has always maintained her innocence claiming she was set up by authorities and given a harsh sentence for refusing to cooperate in the investigation of an ex-boyfriend at the time. Now, you can read more about her life on the run in her new book "A Tale of Two Lives: The Susan LeFevre Fugitive Story."

Marie joins me tonight to talk about the bizarre journey of living as a fugitive for over three decades. That must have been just wow. But before we jump ahead to the end, let`s talk about the beginning. How did you end up with a drug conviction? What happened?

MARIE WALSH: Well, Dr. Drew, I was involved in using drugs. And I`d had a rough -- some rough events happen to me. My first boyfriend died and was drafted and died in Vietnam. My mother had an autoimmune illness all in high school. Before that, I`ve had a very stable life and family life. And, so, I did get into drugs. No particular drug. I just -- anything that came to the parties.

But one night, I received a knock on the door and a friend of my ex- boyfriend -- my high school boyfriend was there. He said he wanted to go get pizza down at the end of the street. So, I went to the restaurant with him just a few blocks away. And I -- my most vivid remembrance of it was finding -- you know, waiting in the car and finding a good song on the radio. And the car started getting cold after awhile and he didn`t come out of the restaurant.

I could see him behind the glass. And so, I then went in. I couldn`t stay in the car. It was very cold. As I was walking in the restaurant, a S.W.A.T. team came out of the shadows and guns were pointed at me. And allegedly he had sold 2.5 grams, about a teaspoon of narcotics to a drug agent. And, I was released on bail early that next morning.

PINSKY: As it went down, they were going to get you as an accomplice, is that right?

MARIE WALSH: First, they said they would drop the charges altogether. They said we know you don`t sell drugs. I said I don`t sell -- I wasn`t -- I wasn`t selling drugs that night. I don`t sell drugs. He said, we know that. We want you to turn in some people, some other people, and we`ll drop the charges completely. I said I can`t do that. For various reasons, I couldn`t do that.

PINSKY: You ended up pleading guilty.


PINSKY: And what happened?

MARIE WALSH: Well, my choice was they said if I would cooperate and plead guilty, that they would give me probation for one year. And I said I didn`t want a record even for probation. I didn`t want a felony that I had a drug sales. And they said if I took it to trial, they would give me years in prison. And I said there`s no evidence against me. I didn`t sell drugs that night.

I don`t sell drugs. And he said that the agent involved would have no problem lying about evidence. He was legendary for doing that and getting a jury to convict whoever the defendants were no matter what the facts.

PINSKY: And you`re 19 years old. You`re hearing -- was your family involved and helping?

MARIE WALSH: Well, I still said I don`t care. I`m going to trial. I`m not pleading guilty.

PINSKY: So, you went to trial?

MARIE WALSH: So, a few months later, after -- you know, you don`t go to trial for about a year.


MARIE WALSH: And a year later, my family worked on me. They said they didn`t want me to have a public trial. It would be embarrassing, and they were very much in favor of me pleading guilty, too. So, I did plead guilty.

PINSKY: And then you went to prison?


PINSKY: How long were you there?

MARIE WALSH: I was there -- it was less than a year that I was there.

PINSKY: When did you start thinking about breaking out?

MARIE WALSH: One night when I was sort of praying to have the courage to kill myself. I obviously was very depressed. I had just been threatened by a guard, put in solitary confinement because an inmate jumped on me. And then, on the way as the guard was taking me into solitary confinement, he said I`m going to get you.

And in solitary confinement, it was a place where a lot of the rapes took place in Michigan. There was a big lawsuit. There were hundreds of people that they just came in your cells whenever they wanted to in those days.

PINSKY: Did something happen to you?

MARIE WALSH: No. I heard it happening. I feared it happening to me. I could hear it down the hallways. I heard a lot of the stories. Inmates were getting pregnant that had been in there for a few years. You could hear -- you know, and they would coerce them. And so, I was really afraid of this, being 19 or 20 years old, I knew I was a prime candidate to be approached. So, I figured it was, you know, a matter of time before --

PINSKY: It happened to you.


PINSKY: All right. Now, in 2008 after Marie was arrested in San Diego, she gave a jailhouse interview and described what her terrifying escape was like. Take a look at this.


MARIE WALSH: One morning, I just ran and climbed a fence and got through the barbwire, put something over it, my jacket, and ran through the woods. The helicopters were out. I figured they might shoot me, and I just figured it just didn`t matter. I couldn`t live caged up like that. Prisons are really not -- they`re really a very terrible, degrading place.


PINSKY: Marie, once you and your grandfather made a decision to go through with this, did you have any second thoughts?

MARIE WALSH: No. Well, I couldn`t, at that point.

PINSKY: But I mean, I imagine once you jumped over the barbwire, there were no second thoughts.

MARIE WALSH: Running to the barbwire, that alone, just running to it, climbing it, I just was looking forward completely. And I was glad that I`d finally gotten the nerve up, because I really feared -- I was afraid. I was somebody that had been turning to drugs before that. I wasn`t a real courageous person.

PINSKY: And your grandfather was waiting for you in the car when you got out?

MARIE WALSH: He was waiting a few miles away on the other side of the woods. And he gave me a lot of inspiration to finally take that plunge.

PINSKY: Where`d he take you?

MARIE WALSH: He took me to his house. It was -- I guess, he felt like he was just a very prominent, you know, upright citizen, and they wouldn`t bother him.

PINSKY: And you just stayed there for awhile?

MARIE WALSH: No. I just stayed there for the rest of the day. A friend of a friend got a ride, and they just happened to be going to California. So, I just -- and California was great, you know? I thought, well, that will be a great place. And I had my toothbrush and about $200 my mother gave me. And the rest of my suitcase was empty. And we took off and drove out to California.

PINSKY: And you got jobs here?


PINSKY: And you met somebody that you eventually married?


PINSKY: How many kids?

MARIE WALSH: Three children.

PINSKY: And then, the past came back to haunt you.



When we come back, Marie`s daughter, Katie, joins us to talk about the day she found out her mother was actually a fugitive that escaped from a Michigan prison. Stay with us.


PINSKY: Tonight, we`re talking with the fugitive mom, Marie Walsh, who was on the run from authorities for over 32 years after a daring prison escape. But in 2008, the authorities finally caught up with her when she was confronted by U.S. marshal who showed up at her home, and life as she knew it was now over.

We welcome back Marie, and we also are joined by her daughter, Katie, who was home the day mom was arrested and had no idea she was a fugitive with a record. Marie, how did you manage to keep this from your family all these years?

MARIE WALSH: You know, I just -- it wasn`t really a choice. It would put them at risk.

PINSKY: But was it something you would think about on a daily basis? Or was it, so far, behind you you just never thought about?

MARIE WALSH: Oh, I thought about it on a daily basis. I knew what was hanging over me. I didn`t let it bother me. I thought it wouldn`t have been worth escaping if I was to let it drive me crazy or something, but I knew that if I did -- was able to repress it or put it way to the back of my mind, I could be careless and say something. I wanted to tell my husband, especially my husband so many times. And, I knew that nothing good would come of it. It was kind of lonely sometimes keeping the secret.

PINSKY: Katie, this must have been just stunning to you. I mean, all of a sudden, you find out this whole story about your mom. What did you think?

KATIE WALSH, DAUGHTER OF MARIE MARIE WALSH: I was, you know, taken back. You know, I never thought anything -- my mom was the last person I would ever think to have such a --

PINSKY: Colorful past.

KATIE WALSH: Colorful past. Yes.

PINSKY: How old were you when that happened? When this all went down?

KATIE WALSH: I was about 19, 20.

PINSKY: Nineteen, and you think, what? Mom what were you doing in the 1970s? What went down then? Can you understand it now when you hear the story about the Vietnam death and the mom with an autoimmune disorder and she was searching for something?

KATIE WALSH: Yes. You know, every child, kid deals, you know, with hard things in their life. And, sometimes, drug seems like the best thing at the time. So, you know, I`m not judging my mom. I mean, she`s not any different.

PINSKY: And then they took her away, though. That must have been impossible. That must has been just so hard.

KATIE WALSH: Yes. It was really hard.

PINSKY: And this was even a tougher road as I understand.

MARIE WALSH: Yes. This was -- I was put in with the worst of the longest term prisoners since I basically had a ten-year sentence, 10 to 20 years sentence. And it was a prison that amnesty international declared one of the worst in the world, not in the United States, in the world, because of the abuse on inmates.

PINSKY: You got out through the legal system?


PINSKY: You got out and --


PINSKY: And were acquitted?

MARIE WALSH: I left through the gate the right way this time. I don`t say I was acquitted, but, finally, the governor had to stand up to the prison industry. It got very complicated again. It was another battle. That`s why I wrote the book. That it was all sort of ordinary misjustice in the beginning.

But, the battle that I had to have just to get a hearing and the media battle against me that was perpetuated by prison officials and the abuse that, you know, people are not -- it doesn`t help them get a better life when they get out of prison to have this abuse.

PINSKY: I hate the idea of usual misjustice. That`s not a good idea. Marie, thank you for joining us. Katie, thank you for joining us, as well. Very courageous for writing the book. I appreciate that. It`s called "A Tale of Two Lives: The Susan LeFevre Story." Thank you both for joining us. Thank you all for being with us as well, and thank you for watching.