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Missing American in Aruba; Mother of Triplets Murdered?
Aired September 14, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
The attorney who saved Casey Anthony`s life has a new client. He`s the suspect in the disappearance of that American beauty in Aruba.
And we`ll hear more from George and Cindy. Could a medical condition explain their daughter`s bizarre actions? I will have something to say about that.
Plus, the missing mother of triplets is feared dead. What did the suspect confess to his own father? This one hits close to home for me, so let`s get started.
Tonight, yet another twist in the case of the missing woman in Aruba. A new surveillance video may reveal more about the man who is suspected in her disappearance.
Check this out.
NANCY GRACE, HOST, "NANCY GRACE": A beautiful young tourist, Robyn Gardner, goes missing without a trace. Gardner, heading to an Aruban vacation with so-called traveling companion Gary Giordano.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Giordano claims that Robyn Gardner was swept out to sea while they were snorkeling.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve got serious reservations about Mr. Giordano`s stories.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: HLN has just confirmed the prime suspect in Robyn Gardner`s disappearance in Aruba has hired attorney Jose Baez.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is something familiar about that attorney.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jose Baez, you know, he`s the Anthony`s defense attorney.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s going to specialize in three areas: forensics, strategy, and the investigation. Jose Baez -- talking about worlds colliding. So is it going to help Giordano or not?
PINSKY: Mr. Baez goes to Aruba.
Joining me to talk about this are Mark Eiglarsh, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor, and Beth Karas, a former prosecutor who has been covering the story for "IN SESSION" on HLN.
Now, Beth, you`ve actually spoken to Jose Baez. Why does he think he`s the right man for this case?
BETH KARAS, FMR. PROSECUTOR: Well, he was contacted by Gary Giordano`s father. You know, he`s still riding that wave, that victory from two months ago in Casey Anthony`s case, heavy on the forensics in that case. So he has developed some expertise in science.
And this is an entirely circumstantial case. But is it even a case? It`s an investigation. No charges have been filed against Gary Giordano. So he is assisting.
He`s a consultant to the attorney, Michael Lopez, in Aruba right now. He will not be able to argue in court if it gets to that point. He is not an attorney in Aruba. He will not be licensed there, but he can assist.
PINSKY: Mark, he`s had one relatively narrow exposure to forensic science for one case. This makes him an expert and able to handle complex forensics?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, according to whoever paid him money or hired him on this case, it does. You know, kudos to him.
Listen, he`s parlayed this case into the next big case. I don`t have any ill will towards him. He has his finger on the pulse of some of the best experts in the forensic field, having just dealt with them.
He`s been to seminars. He educated himself greatly. I don`t know, I guess the thought is, why not? Someone`s life is on the line --
PINSKY: You know, Mark, I tell you what, I have scrubbed in on a couple of -- well, let`s say gallbladder procedures. I guess I should just go do one.
But anyway, does the fact that he is the defending attorney tell you something? I mean, is he the guy that guilty people hire, is my question.
KARAS: This is what people do, people who are looking for an attorney. If there`s a name that`s out there, that`s getting publicity, win or lose they get hired. People call on them. We need an attorney. They don`t know where to go.
Jose Baez just had a great victory in the face of what many thought was damning evidence against his client. So, hey, let`s get this guy. Maybe he can work some magic here and charges will never be filed.
PINSKY: But Beth, you`re sort of building my case for me. I`m going to drop this in just a second, but it`s like, oh, man, I`ve got a lot of stuff against me, I want to get the guy that got somebody off who clearly was guilty. But anyway, we`ll go to the next thought here.
New surveillance video shows the two hours leading up to Robyn`s disappearance. And I want to go through this. So let`s take a look at it.
Now, put that up there. All right.
First, we see Robyn and Gary walking to the restaurant with their cups in their hands. OK? And according to witnesses, they didn`t order alcohol in the bar, but were filling the cups in their car with -- you know, I suppose it`s not mineral water they`re filling. It`s probably alcohol.
Then we see Robyn walking to the bathroom twice. The reason this is interesting is because she seems -- doesn`t seem impaired in any way, right?
And as some have suggested, she might have been drunk or drugged at the time. We just don`t see any evidence of that at that point.
There we go. And then we see Gary go to the car by himself to what looks like fill up his cup.
Now, you wonder if he had her cup and what he might have put in her cup. Now we see both of them leave the restaurant in a second here, cups still in hand. There we are.
Now, Mark, I want to go to you. What do you make of all this video up to this point? Do the scenes become problematic for the defense in any way?
EIGLARSH: It could be, it could not be. You know, it`s like Casey Anthony all over again. What we`ve got --
PINSKY: Why do you think we`re covering this case, Mark?
EIGLARSH: What`s that? Why what?
PINSKY: Why cover this case? It`s like Casey Anthony all over again. That`s right.
EIGLARSH: Well, here`s the problem. The similarities are, again, there`s going to be no eyewitnesses to what happened. We`ve got a defendant who`s keeping his mouth shut about what took place.
We`ve got a lot of theories that just don`t make sense. You know, calm waters, yet somehow she got dragged out. We`ve got insurance policy. A travel insurance policy? I`ve never heard of anything. Et cetera, et cetera.
But you don`t have the smoking gun. You don`t have the busload of nuns. You don`t have the video or the confession.
PINSKY: You don`t have a dead -- you don`t have a body either, right?
Go ahead, Beth.
KARAS: Yes, no body.
Assuming that the video you just showed is close in time to when he says that they went snorkeling, which is 4:00 p.m., and they were at the restaurant at 2:00, they leave around 4:00 to go snorkeling, they don`t appear -- at least she doesn`t appear to be dressed for snorkeling.
Now, her boyfriend back home and other friends don`t believe she went snorkeling. She was very concerned about her looks, her hair, her makeup. She was all made up. She was really dolled up, and she was not going to go in the water, they say.
And she certainly didn`t appear that she was, you know -- that she had anything with her. She wasn`t dressed for snorkeling. And it`s 6:00, a little after, that he is banging on the now closed restaurant that they just left -- it`s not open for dinner -- and he`s looking for help. He`s like, can somebody help me? I need a telephone.
PINSKY: Right. OK. Beth, two great points.
PINSKY: Hang on a second, Mark. You have something to say, Mark? Go ahead.
EIGLARSH: Yes. The best evidence that it didn`t happen in the water snorkeling is that the body would have then washed up. You know, they have experience in these things. The body didn`t wash up. So it`s got to be somewhere else.
PINSKY: Yes. But Beth has a good point, though. I mean, everyone that knew her said she wouldn`t even put her head underwater, and particularly not when she`s dressed up for the evening like, that I would imagine.
PINSKY: And you mentioned that tape where he goes around and bangs on the door. I want to look at that evidence. Take a look at this.
Now, after Robyn goes missing, as Beth mentioned, Gary Giordano says he left the beach and ran over to the restaurant -- look -- where they had been earlier, the same restaurant, and he`s sort of banging on the doors a little bit, looking around. It seemed pretty halfhearted. He walks around, goes to the kitchen.
Mark, I want to ask you about this. It doesn`t look like a guy frantically looking for a woman who had just drowned. Does it?
EIGLARSH: No. It equates to somebody going to a club and dancing during the hot body contest. You know, these are symbolic little knocks.
This is not someone who has lost someone that he at least temporarily appears to be responsible for. I think that people will read between the lines when they see that.
PINSKY: I think you`re right.
And I want to thank NBC for that surveillance video.
Go ahead, Beth.
KARAS: He`s really drunk at that point, according to the police. They had to wait for him to sober up before they could really talk to him. So, in his defense, he may be a little disoriented.
EIGLARSH: Good point. Good point.
PINSKY: Well, I`ll just remind you that Van der Sloot used videotape intentionally sort of in a premeditated way as part of his defense. So other killers have done that kind of thing, walked in front of video cameras to say later -- hey, see, I was looking for her, I sought help, and there just wasn`t that kind of help available.
KARAS: That`s good point, too.
PINSKY: You guys agree with me. Good enough.
EIGLARSH: Good point.
PINSKY: OK. Thank you, guys.
Next, did Clay Waller dig a grave, kill his wife, Jackie, bury her, and then tell his own father about this? This is a very poignant case. Jacque`s parents are here to talk about this, so please stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STAN RAWSON, JACQUE WALLER`S FATHER: The idea that somebody would kill my little girl and just throw her in a hole like she`s a piece of trash of some kind, that eats me up.
PINSKY: Tonight, a new twist in the missing wife and mother of triplets case. Jacque Waller was last heard from when she went to pick up her son at the home of her estranged husband, Clay Waller. Although Clay has denied any involvement in Jacque`s disappearance, a newly-released FBI affidavit reveals startling new details.
Take a look at this.
PINSKY (voice-over): A mother of triplets, Jacque Waller, missing and now feared dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Waller basically telling loved ones that, "I`m at Mr. Waller`s resident to pick up my child, and that was pretty much the last contact that she had with anyone.
PINSKY: Her husband, Clay Waller, under suspicion and jailed for threatening Jacque`s sister. The details are stunning: blood spattered inside the home, possible evidence tampering, reports Clay Waller repeatedly threatened his wife and kids. And most disturbing, just- released court documents alleging Clay confessed to his own father that he killed Jacque. The feds are getting involved as the investigation ramps up.
And Jacque`s parents, caught in a baffling and heartbreaking nightmare.
The warning signs --
RUBY RAWSON, JACQUE`S MOTHER: She had told us about the threats.
PINSKY: -- the pattern of violent behavior --
R. RAWSON: She had told us about him dragging her through the house.
PINSKY: -- and the bitter narrative that grew into a disturbing mystery.
PINSKY: Here to talk about Clay`s alleged confessions are Jacque Waller`s parents, Ruby and Stan Rawson.
Thank you, guys. I appreciate you joining us.
Now, before I talk with both of you, I want to show our audience what is in this affidavit where it states -- or James -- it states that "James Clay Waller, Sr." -- I guess that`s Clay Waller`s father -- "advised that his son, James Clay Waller, came to him a few days after Jacque went missing and confessed to him" -- that`s his father -- "that he killed Jacque. Waller told his father that the hole was already dug and he buried her with a shovel. While telling his father how he killed Jacque, he made a motion with his arms consistent with breaking her neck."
We asked Clay Waller`s attorney about Clay`s alleged confession. He had no comment for us.
Now, Ruby and Stan, you have both visited Clay`s father, as I understand, and he told you pretty much the same thing.
Is that right?
S. RAWSON: That`s correct.
PINSKY: I can just -- I mean, do you have a relationship with Clay`s father? Is he somebody you can be civil with? Or are you just -- I could just imagine how disturbing this all is.
S. RAWSON: Oh, yes. He`s actually a pretty nice guy.
He prefers to be called Jim, Jim Waller. He`s in a nursing home. He`s bedridden. But his mind`s perfectly OK.
He has emphysema or something, and he`s got a problem with his legs. But there`s nothing at all wrong with his mind. He is --
PINSKY: And so Stan --
S. RAWSON: Yes. Go ahead.
PINSKY: Stan, did he apologize? Did he -- I mean, did he have anything to offer you to soothe how you were feeling?
S. RAWSON: Oh, he feels terrible about it. We took the triplets down to see him. You know, that is their grandpa. And while we were there, he said, "I`ve got something I want to talk to you about."
S. RAWSON: And Ruby and me and the triplets left the room. They went to -- I don`t know whatever they had done. And he told me this story.
He said, "I`ve already told the police." He said, "I wanted to tell you in person." And he said that Clay told him just a couple of days after this happened.
He said that he came to the nursing home, to his dad. He said he was crying, he was all shook up, and told him. He says, "I killed her, dad." He said, "You what?" He said, "I killed her."
He said, "Why would you do that anyway?" And he said, "Just uncontrollable rage." He said, "I broke her neck and took her out to a hole I had dug and threw her in it and covered her back up."
PINSKY: Oh, my God. I mean, this --
S. RAWSON: Yes.
PINSKY: It`s so chilling to hear this story, Stan.
And Ruby, I know you and I spoke once before. And I so much appreciate you joining me again.
And when we were last together, Cheryl (ph), your daughter, was with us. And she was talking about how Clay had repeatedly threatened not just his wife, but also your daughter Cheryl (ph).
Is that right?
R. RAWSON: He hadn`t threatened Cheryl (ph) before then, I don`t believe. But this last one was over the Internet, over topics. He put it on there, that he would kill her if anything happened to those kids. And she knew it was probably him. So that`s the reason she reported it.
PINSKY: Now, apparently, Clay had been threatening Jacque for quite some time. She even kept a log of the threats on her computer. And again, Cheryl (ph) confirmed all the times that her sister, the woman who`s now missing, had come to her and said, "My husband`s going to kill me, I know it`s going to happen someday."
Now, last spring, things apparently got particularly bad. She has an entry from February 16th where she writes, "He stated that he is starting to hate me and he will get me. Someday there may be a knock at the door and I open the door and get blown away."
From March 18th, again, another entry, "Clay told me he wished he had a gun so he could blow my head off. He told me that a divorce would be my death sentence."
And I think we all remember the divorce had just recently been part of the history of what was happening here.
And from March 23rd, another entry. "He told me if he couldn`t get to me, he would kill our kids. He would take them for a weekend fishing trip, and then he would tell me they drowned so he could see my face."
Ruby or Stan, I mean, this guy -- now I know what uncontained rage is. This is a despicable character. What do we do with this?
S. RAWSON: He`s a real piece of work. There`s no doubt about that.
Jacque was convinced, I believe, that he intended to kill her and/or the kids, or possibly all of them. And she was doing what she could to protect the children and try to start a new life. But I had no idea that it was that bad.
She was keeping this diary on her company laptop. And the girls down at where she worked, they were aware she was keeping this. She told them every day what was going on.
And I think it`s abused woman syndrome is what kicked in here. And it`s terrible. It breaks my heart.
PINSKY: Stan, I hear it. And I don`t understand how it could do anything else.
I agree with you. I think the domestic violence syndrome is a part of the picture here.
And how are you guys holding up? Let`s talk about the future. How are the kids holding up? How are you getting through this?
R. RAWSON: We have a great support system -- our family, our church. We have God on our side. We know that.
And the kids are doing pretty good. They`re in school now, so that keeps them pretty well occupied. And of course they`re busy all the time.
PINSKY: How about you guys?
R. RAWSON: The girls are going to start Scouts. We have each other and we have the rest of our family. It`s devastating. I don`t know how we do it, to tell you the truth about it.
PINSKY: Right. You just sort of have to get through.
And Stan, I`m so sorry, my friend. I see it on your face. Just one father to another, man, I don`t know how you get through something like that. I`ll keep you in my prayers.
S. RAWSON: Well, you feel like you failed your child, whether you could do anything about it or not. You have that feeling. And that don`t go away overnight.
You ask how we get along. One day Ruby will break down and just -- you know, it`s just awful. And then the next time I`ll break down and it`s just awful.
And then sometimes we both pretty much do, but we usually don`t on the same day. And that`s the only thing that keeps us going.
PINSKY: Well, that is a blessing. And I think you have your positive outlook and sense of humor still together, and you have each other.
Thank you, guys, for joining us. It`s an awful story, but thank you for sharing it.
S. RAWSON: Thank you.
R. RAWSON: Sure.
PINSKY: When we come back, we`re going to switch gears here and talk about an incredible selfless action by a crowd that saved a young man`s life. I think it`s amazing. I want to know what you think.
Your calls -- look at that -- your calls, comments, next.
PINSKY: Welcome back.
Now, you are watching incredible footage of heroics carried out by a half a dozen or more people in Utah as they rushed to push a 4,000-pound car off of a motorcyclist trapped underneath it. They did it without thinking, and the young man they saved will live.
Oh, my goodness.
We`ve received a lot of feedback on this story. HLN has been covering it today. So let`s get right to the phones.
Suzi in Pennsylvania, you are the first up. What do you think?
SUZI, PENNSYLVANIA: Hey, Dr. Drew. Just a quick comment.
PINSKY: Hey. Hi, Suzi.
SUZI: As one of your guests noted last week, 9/11 gave birth to a new generation of heroes. This new generation of heroes consists of everyday people who were united by tragedy just 10 years ago. And from 9/11 on, Americans have developed a far greater sense of not only patriotism, but simple good samaritanship as well.
PINSKY: Suzi, I agree with you, and I expect that to be most of the comments I`m hearing tonight, which is -- and let me take you back to the fairgrounds in Indiana where that stage collapsed.
Do you remember how many people ran into the action? They ran towards the danger to help, even in the confusion and really without thinking. They run toward -- we value that now, and we are acting accordingly.
Renee in Illinois, go ahead.
RENEE, ILLINOIS: Hi, Dr. Drew.
RENEE: I think people act like these guys did, in perfect harmony when they`re compassionate, they aren`t afraid, or they don`t have time to be afraid. They realize no one else is going to jump in and do it, and they were asked to help. When one of these elements is missing, it causes people to hold back and not respond.
PINSKY: Well, compassion I think is part of it. There is an instinct that people have. I must say, we do a lot of telling stories about people that aren`t behaving so nicely, but I think most people have an instinct -- let`s call it altruism. Let`s call it, you know, the selfish genes trying to push our species forward, whatever it is.
I think people, when at their best, behave precisely like this. And it`s not that uncommon.
On Facebook, Sheri says, "This is an awesome, uplifting story. I had tears in my eyes the first time I watched it. Thank God those unselfish, brave people were there."
Again, this takes us back to 9/11, doesn`t it? We`ve been sort of revisiting all that with the 10-year anniversary. And it just reminds us about us at our best and the people we value, the people that made the ultimate sacrifice on 9/11, and them as a model for how we all should be behaving today. And I think we`re finally starting to follow suit a little bit.
Leisha, I think is how to pronounce this. She writes, "Goes to show that ordinary people are heroes too. Volunteers, nurses, mothers, et cetera. It`s not just baseball, football, or movie stars."
Deb tweets, "I loved seeing this. They all pushed and got him out. Maybe that`s the way a lot of us should learn to live."
You know, that`s an interesting point, Deb. You`re talking about the fact that there was a community that developed in that moment. Absolutely.
We have to think about the community support, and that if we act in concert together, again, we can get more done, we can save lives, we can do lots of good things. Maybe our government should take a page from this act.
Lisa, finally, asked, "Do you think that the main motive for helping others is for the pure reason of our connectedness with others?"
Well, this is too much for me to answer in the 20 or so seconds that I have, but I do believe there`s a deep connection amongst all humans. I do believe that`s there.
I believe also that people would feel guilty about not acting. And I believe, too, people also have compassion and can relate to one thing -- would have wanted other people to act the way that they behaved.
Finally, next, George -- we`re really switching gears here. Now to George and Cindy Anthony. They say some incredible things about Casey. Now, the question here is, should we believe them or not?
Stay with us.
PINSKY: They say they were a regular family until they found out their granddaughter, Caylee, was missing, and from then on, their lives changed forever. Tonight, part 2 of the very first interview with George and Cindy Anthony since Casey Anthony`s trial. Watch this, then we will talk.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month. Her mother finally admitted that she`s been missing. There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today. And it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.
CASEY ANTHONY, ACCUSED OF KILLING HER DAUGHTER: My daughter`s been missing for the last 31 days.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you know who has her?
CASEY ANTHONY: I know who has her. I`ve tried to contact her. I actually received a phone call today now from a number that is no longer in service. I did get to speak to my daughter for about a moment, for about a minute.
I want Caylee more than -- than anybody can understand. I can`t do anything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think Casey was involved in Caylee`s death?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, tonight, Casey`s parents reveal some pretty interesting theories. And by the way, theories that we have speculated about on this very program, and they are sort of confirming tonight, and we`ll talk about that, but as I go through this conversation, I want us to think, does it matter?
We discussed this throughout the week. And the fact is, what we all seem to conclude is, does it matter? She still had something to do with Caylee`s loss, Caylee not being around, and why didn`t the parents do something? We`re going to get into this. Now, the question is do they think their daughter got away with murder? Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: Do I believe the defense, what they were saying, there was an accidental drowning? No. Why did it take three years for us to be told that? Why did it take three years? And we were told two weeks or so before trial was going to get started by the defense. I just don`t understand.
DR. PHIL, HOST: So, you think it was like a chemical babysitter. We need to sedate this child, so what? So she could leave? What would be the purpose of sedating the child?
GEORGE ANTHONY: With Caylee? I mean, some freedom that she wanted. That`s what I feel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: OK. Now, George believes Casey drugged Caylee. Remember, Zanny the nanny? Xanax could have been one of those sedating elements. Where did she get this stuff? She was doing it so she could have some freedom, something we`ve all speculated about. But Cindy strongly disagreed. She believes a mysterious string of seizures caused Casey`s bizarre behavior.
So, we have to speculate. Something we`ve talked about here before. Could a seizure made Casey -- have an influence on Casey`s lying in some way? Can a seizure make you think it`s OK to go out partying when you know your daughter is dead? All right. I`m going to explain that in a few minutes, if that`s even possible.
First, I want to introduce my guests. Criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor, Mark Eiglarsh, bounty hunter, Tracy McLaughlin, who was Casey`s security guard and spent a good deal of time in the Anthony home, and Tracy`s colleague, Rob Dick, joins us as well. He also spent time with Casey and her parents. Mark, first of all, I want to know if you saw these interviews and what you thought.
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I watched every minute of it, and I got nothing out of it to help me understand, specifically, how that child died. I learned George has a gambling problem. OK. That was interesting. But to rely upon George and Cindy to advance why they think the child wound up in the woods to me is of no value. I`m considering the credibility of the witness like I would in court. Interest, motive, bias, they`ve got it all. I didn`t learn anything.
PINSKY: You know, even though there was a little more information and confirmation of some of the theories, Mark, you and I have speculated about for quite some time, yes, I agree with you. There was nothing substantial. And it`s hard to believe anyone involved in Casey`s life. And it seems that the family seems to still maintain a certain degree of denial and protectiveness, co-dependency towards Casey. Now, Cindy dropped the bombshell on Phil. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t know if she had a seizure that day and blacked out. I don`t know what happened. And that`s what I want to find out down the road. And I`m not making justifications for that, but there`s a cause for this. You don`t just have a grand mal seizure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. That sentence made no sense, actually. Now, I have on this show repeatedly talked about her seizure. She had multiple seizures in jail. We all knew about these seizures. That does not make somebody murder somebody. Mark, why didn`t this come up in court, any of this stuff?
And by the way, if you remember, Mark, I talked to a psychiatrist that examined her at length, and the only thing he could say was that she had a narcissistic personality style or traits or maybe disorder, but I brought up the seizures with him too, and he said no, no, there`s no organic problem here.
EIGLARSH: It didn`t come up because it either isn`t true and/or if it is true, it has no value. Jose picked the defense that he thought would work, and apparently, it worked. Listen, Cindy has said repeatedly that she watched this trial because she wanted the truth. She said that during the Dr. Phil interview. I found it to be shocking that once the verdict came down she said, "I knew then. I knew this was an accident."
Listen, I know she wants to believe that, but as we talked about, the trial does not yield the truth. Period, end of story. I don`t get it.
PINSKY: Oh, there`s that familiar feeling again, Mark. You know what I`m talking about. My dyspepsia. Whenever I talked about -- but it`s OK. You know I love you. It`s all right.
EIGLARSH: It`s not. It`s not.
PINSKY: I understand. You`ve trained me carefully about that. Justice and truth are unrelated. I get that.
EIGLARSH: And she lied, too. She lied too. In other words, if she really, really wanted to get the truth, you don`t then take the stand and pervert justice by lying about the chloroform searches. So, maybe, that wasn`t genuine when she said that. I don`t know.
PINSKY: Maybe not. Maybe not. Yes, these are not -- the sophistication of what they`re saying, too, is also in question. It`s all over the place. Now, her parents, George and Cindy again, suggested that also, in addition to seizures, that Casey may have had some sort of postpartum mood disorder. Now, listen here. There`s postpartum depression, and there`s postpartum psychosis, OK?
Postpartum psychosis is a wild condition. There was a woman here recently that threw a child off a parking structure here in Southern California. That could be postpartum psychosis. They`re disconnected from reality. Postpartum depression is a severe depression the first year after giving delivery, and there would have been evidence for that.
And throughout all these medical issues that the parents keep bringing up, I have a huge question. They knew their daughter was sick and they didn`t get her help and they allowed her to keep parenting? Listen to this from Dr. Phil.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PHIL: As you look back, were there any warning signs that would have suggested that Casey was going to do whatever it is that she did?
CINDY ANTHONY: After Caylee was born is when I started to see changes in Casey.
DR. PHIL: Why? In your view. What precipitated that?
CINDY ANTHONY: Looking back now, I`m almost wondering if she didn`t develop postpartum schizophrenia or some type of issue after her pregnancy. A hormonal type of illness. I mean, and that`s my perception because none of those behaviors were exhibited prior to her pregnancy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And let`s be 100 percent clear. There is no such thing as postpartum schizophrenia. I know Cindy`s not a medical person, but there`s postpartum psychosis, there`s postpartum depression. Tracy, to you, while you saw was somebody bubbly enough, isn`t that right? Was there any evidence of depression when you were around Casey or did she ever talk about having been depressed?
TRACY MCLAUGHLIN, CASEY`S FORMER SECURITY GUARD: She was never depressed, and she never had a seizure while I was staying with her, which is what Cindy said on the Dr. Phil show. But no, she was happy. There was nothing wrong with her.
PINSKY: Tracy, what do you think of George and -- do you have any sort of instinct? Either of you, from hearing this interview today, did you get a feeling about what was going on in the head of George and Cindy?
ROB DICK, SPENT TIME IN THE ANTHONY HOME: Well, I think George is finally being a little bit more truthful. I mean, he`s finally laying out what everybody`s seen. I mean, George has known, you know? And it`s starting to come forward with a little bit more, a little bit more. Cindy, she`s still all over the place.
She`s just -- I mean, she started off in the beginning with not telling the truth, you know? She said this started about the time of the pregnancy. Well, everybody knows it`s been out there that she lied about graduating high school that was way before the pregnancy. So, it didn`t start with that. It`s just more denial.
PINSKY: I agree with you, Rob. I think that`s a great point, which is that Cindy seems to have been coddling and sort of filling in and being co-dependent for Casey way back. Way back. Would you agree, Tracy, that if they -- look, if they knew this girl was sick and impaired, shouldn`t they have confronted that and gotten her help?
MCLAUGHLIN: Yes. I think they should have, but Cindy hid everything. She wanted to have the perfect family. She was really worried about her image. And the same thing, I don`t think -- Cindy`s in total denial of everything that happened, but I don`t think she`s doing it for anyone else`s benefit. I think she`s just in denial. I think she`s messed up in her own head, and nothing`s going to shake her out of it.
PINSKY: And let me say, you know, the -- but let me just tell my viewers that the case that`s being made here by Cindy and Casey -- Cindy and George, rather, is that Casey had a severe neuropsychological impairment. Let me explain it to people a little bit. The seizures are only a symptom of a more global syndrome. Now, the seizures may have an effect on her sensorium and functioning. They may have an effect on her mood. And there may be a more global brain dysfunction.
They say the seizures, themselves, made her not be able to know right from wrong and truth from fiction. I have talked to several neuropsychologists. Many have actually written me to say that they have a number of patients very much like this, with these narcissistic personality styles, with generalized seizures. Sometimes, the seizures are what called fictitious. Meaning, they`re not even real seizures, but it`s part of a global, global brain syndrome.
More than I can get into in 30 seconds on the television, but these kind of syndromes exist out there, where people lie and they do inappropriate things, and they can`t get their life together and they can`t work, and they don`t function well as parents. But again, don`t the healthy parents, the grandparents, have a responsibility to step in?
Thank you, guys. Thanks, Rob, Tracy. It`s good to see you guys again. And Mark, I think you`re going to stay with us.
Next, they say they were Caylee`s primary caregivers. So, this is my consistent question here. How did George and Cindy not realize their granddaughter was missing for 31 days? How did they fall for all of their daughter`s lies? How did they not see their daughter was sick and do something about that? And are they still making excuses and defending Casey?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: I, as a mom, I know in my gut, there`s feeling as a parent, you know, certain things about your child, and you can feel that connection. And I still have that feeling, that presence. I know that she`s alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: Can someone let me -- come on!
CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, hold on, sweetheart. Settle down, baby.
CASEY ANTHONY: Nobody`s letting me speak. You want me to talk, and - -
CINDY ANTHONY: All right.
CASEY ANTHONY: Give me --
CINDY ANTHONY: I`ll listen.
CASEY ANTHONY: Thirty seconds to say something.
CINDY ANTHONY: Go, sweetheart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: This is becoming iconic footage. Tonight, it`s part 2 of George and Cindy Anthony`s first interview after their daughter, Casey, was found not guilty of murdering her two-year-old daughter, Caylee. George and Cindy haven`t seen Casey since she was released from jail, and George explained why. Listen to this from Dr. Phil.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: There`s nothing more I can say to her, because I blame her for Caylee not being here.
DR. PHIL: You blamed her then and you blame her today?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes, sir, I do. I do. Do I believe that Casey is involved with my granddaughter? Yes. Was there someone else that possibly could have helped them? I believe so, too. Did Casey cover something up? Yes. You can see that. You can see by the lies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining me now is body language specialist, Mark Edgar Stevens. So, Mark Edgar, what do you think you`re seeing here with the Anthonys?
MARK EDGAR STEVENS, BODY LANGUAGE SPECIALIST: Well, really, what we`re seeing in day 2 of the interviews, Dr. Drew, is the separation that starts to happen between George and Cindy. On the first day, George sits very straight up and Cindy`s actually leaning into him. On the second day, we see a greater separation. He leans farther away, and she`s leaning even farther into him because their stories are starting to separate.
PINSKY: The opinions are getting separate.
PINSKY: And Cindy seems to be getting a little more upset.
STEVENS: Yes, she is. And she actually does something. Whenever Dr. Phil is strong with her about what`s really going on with her, you see her stone-faced. She lifts up her shoulders a bit more. Her lips tightened. And everything is like this. She`s girding herself from the truth. She doesn`t want to accept what the truth actually is.
PINSKY: OK. Now, George may blame Casey, but Cindy Anthony, as we`ve said, is still making excuses for her daughter. Listen to this from Dr. Phil.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PHIL: Your theory is that she is a victim in this in some way, a victim of an illness, a tumor, or something.
CINDY ANTHONY: I truly believe that, because there was never any signs that Casey was an unfit mother. She was an awesome mother.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Awesome mother. Dead child. Mark, help me understand this. That sounds like even more than denial. It`s sort of a repudiation of reality.
STEVENS: Yes. Yes. And Dr. Drew, what we`re seeing here a lot from Cindy is there`s a lot of body language that`s consistent with self- deception. She reaches for her nose a couple times when she talks about things being truthful or honest. She literally throws her hands in the air like that`s what I`d like to believe, but I have to throw it in the air.
She may not on a conscious level believe that -- maybe on a conscious level she doesn`t believe that it`s not true, but subconsciously, she knows that --
PINSKY: She knows better. Mark Eiglarsh, what`s your opinion on that?
EIGLARSH: You guys help me. I mean, at the core --
EIGLARSH: At the core, I`m -- I`ll quote my wife on this one. We`re watching it today, and she said, "this is clearly a mother who one day wants to have a reunion with her only daughter and is either consciously or subconsciously not willing to accept what is painfully obvious, so that she can one day have a -- you know, a get-together with her daughter and live happily ever after."
And you know what? I`m not saying that there`s anything wrong with that. It`s her choice. Not my choice. It`s her choice. She has the right to do that. And then, of course, America has the right to yell and scream and get angry and then I ask how`s that working out for you?
PINSKY: Mark Eiglarsh, as you`re talking, it`s funny, I was just thinking about some cases I`ve dealt with, where family members when kids have brain injuries and head injuries and head encephalitis and end up with these rather subtle complex neuropsychiatric problems, I have had parents actually maintain such denial and defense against admitting that there`s a child with a neurobiological impairment.
That they`d rather the child die in an accident or have a drug overdose than admit that there really is something profoundly wrong with this child because that means they`re not going to have a job ever, that they`re not going to lead a normal life. And you can see Cindy, particularly, seems dedicated to having a perfect sort of a family.
STEVENS: Yes. Dr. Drew, what you`re saying is exactly right, because what we`re seeing with Cindy is even though George is in acceptance that yes, there`s responsibility here on Casey`s part if not 100 percent guilt, Cindy is completely dedicated to the idea that there`s no way that Casey could have done this because she has this love for her, you know?
PINSKY: But there`s an interesting phenomenon here. I`m also seeing in George, which is he should have stepped in ten years ago and gotten her help. And now that he`s realizing she`s impaired, not only is she impaired, she`s capable of horrible behavior, now I`ll have nothing to do with you.
STEVENS: Yes. Yes.
PINSKY: So, it`s the flip side of the same coin, which is you`re perfect, you`re trash.
STEVENS: That`s right.
PINSKY: And that`s not reality. I mean, well, it is now, unfortunately.
STEVENS: It`s their reality.
PINSKY: It`s their reality now. And it could have been sort of changed had they intervened quicker. Also, you noticed some interesting things about how they interacted with each other during the interview.
PINSKY: We`re looking now at the portions of the interview that jumped out at you. Let`s describe what you`re seeing. You said they`re sort of separated. Is this that part now? Oh, look at that.
STEVENS: Yes. You see here with George as he`s taking in what`s going on with Cindy, you see him actually pull farther and farther away from her. He does something else interesting, which is he looks down and to the right --
PINSKY: Oh, yes. A lot.
STEVENS: For his remembered feelings. For his imagined feelings.
STEVENS: Every now and then, he`ll look down for remembered feelings, but most of the time, he`s looking for how should I feel now? What should I be saying so that everybody believes me and believes how sorry I am that I didn`t do something more?
PINSKY: And didn`t I see a little bit of hatred in his eyes there? Is that what I was seeing there?
STEVENS: Every now and then, you see contempt.
PINSKY: Contempt, yes.
STEVENS: You see a little bit of a snarl. It`s a little bit of a turned up lip that we do. And you see him actually look at her with contempt and pull farther away.
PINSKY: And contempt is a very bad prognostic sign for marriages, for --
STEVENS: Yes. That and also you see him, when he pulls so far away. There`s also -- there`s a moment in the interview, where he talks about when they were separated, he reaches for his ring finger. That`s our commitment finger. It`s where he`s not sure how much of the commitment he currently has.
PINSKY: Wow. This is very, very interesting stuff. Mark Eiglarsh, good to see you, my friend. Hopefully, you`ll be back soon. And Mark Edgar, I would like to do more of this conversation. It is revealing.
STEVENS: I would as well.
PINSKY: And I hope people really understand and follow this because it`s easy just to dismiss it all as sort of lies and distortions, but there`s a lot of difficult stuff going on here. I have to go to break, I`m sorry, but thank you.
Coming up, more shocking news from this first interview with Casey Anthony`s parents since Casey`s acquittal. What happened behind closed doors at the Anthony home. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: My heart is aching because I just want to be back with our family. This in my gut every day stronger and stronger, I know we`re going to see Caylee. I know she`s coming home. I can feel it. I want you to know that. I want her home now. So, we can celebrate her third birthday.
CINDY ANTHONY: I know.
CASEY ANTHONY: As a family again.
CINDY ANTHONY: I know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PHIL: When she was released from jail the first time --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What happened -- what can you tell us?
DR. PHIL: What was it like when she came home?
GEORGE ANTHONY: First thing, I want to hug her. I was very, very tough on my daughter. I wanted answers. I wanted to know where Caylee was at. It started out being a nice general conversation, and all of a sudden it turned -- I turned a little belligerent with my daughter. I screamed, hollered at her to tell me what was going on. We can fix this. And Casey just says, dad, Zanny took her. She has her. And I said where she at? Let`s go get her.
DR. PHIL: Were you suspicious of her at that point?
GEORGE ANTHONY: I didn`t believe 2/3 of the things she was telling me.
PINSKY: I remember Tracy McLaughlin confirmed that story for us. She was in the house witnessing that sort of stuff. And this, of course, was George Anthony speaking with Dr. Phil about his daughter, Casey. Mark Eiglarsh, I have you with me just a few more seconds. Why do you think the Anthonys went public with such private things?
EIGLARSH: $500,000. Now, I don`t know --
PINSKY: Is that what they got paid?
EIGLARSH: That`s what I`m hearing. I don`t know the exact number. That`s what I`m hearing. But for sure, it was a lot of money. I know this story was shopped. And I know Phil is getting his money`s worth because people are watching.
But either, that`s going to a very good cause, and they actually have the best interests of those who would benefit from that at heart or, again, this may find a way back to them and benefit them financially somehow. Either way, you know, that`s the motivation, I think.
PINSKY: Mark Edgar, anything you want to take away, any last words that we need to take away from this interview?
STEVENS: Yes. Yes. In particular, just watching how tied up physically in knots Cindy is. I mean, she`s crossed up in all of these different ways, the nice thing in this was actually one nice thing was to see George actually open up and be in acceptance of the fact that yes, there`s a lot of responsibility on Casey`s part. I`m interested to see as this develops how much more honesty we get out of that relationship in any further interviews.
PINSKY: Do you think either of them will ever accept any of the responsibility for not intervening, not seeing their daughter as not a well person?
STEVENS: What I`m seeing, again, it`s from the long looks -- look downs when they actually literally bow their head and look down --
PINSKY: Is that shame? Is that shame?
STEVENS: It`s shame and embarrassment.
STEVENS: It is shame and embarrassment every time, and you`ll see it. He does it about three times in the interviews. He does it every time they talk about needing to have done more so that Casey didn`t turn out the way she did. Whether they could have done anything to change her or not, we don`t know, but there`s shame and embarrassment.
PINSKY: Well, there could not have been a worse outcome. That`s all I got to say. Thank you, you guys again. I`ll say goodbye. And we, hopefully, have you back soon.
Now, I want to say a few words before we go. Now, obviously, many of you have been outraged and not just outraged but outspoken about the verdict in the Casey Anthony trial. And now, not only is your vitriol directed toward Casey, you`re letting George and Cindy have it, too. For making a lot of money out of this interview, for making excuses for their daughter, for -- from my side, it`s for not intervening, for not doing something, and then for rejecting her when you did (ph) intervene.
This all has struck a deep personal chord for people it seems like in this country today. And I think that chord is perhaps a feeling of helplessness that we all have, given the way the world is going today. Maybe even more so because of other things you can`t control such as the economy, lack of jobs. Of course, we`re angry with the justice system for letting Casey go. And I`ve been reporting on a lot of stories I shake my head at and don`t understand how it could be the way it is.
So, now your frustration is directed toward the parents, who appear to be in denial or rejecting or protecting or whatever their motivation is. It makes us angry. We kind of want the truth. Let`s do remind ourselves about what we can control. We can control how we behave, how we react, and how we treat other people.
And again, 30 minutes ago, I showed you footage of a group of people behaving heroically. Let`s keep that in mind. I want to thank you all for watching tonight, and we`ll see you next time.