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New Development in Coronado Mansion Mystery Death
Aired September 19, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
The Coronado mansion mystery. Police have ruled the death of a millionaire`s girlfriend a suicide. Are they about to reopen the case and consider the possibility of murder?
And you will hear Cindy Anthony`s answer to this question: Does she think her husband George molested their daughter, Casey?
Let`s get started.
We have new developments tonight in the Coronado mansion mystery deaths. A 6-year-old boy dies from a terrible accident, then his father`s girlfriend is also found dead, her naked body found hanging from the balcony of a beautiful estate outside San Diego, California.
Police say it`s a suicide, but her family just isn`t convinced. Take a look at this.
PINSKY (voice-over): Tonight, a bizarre suicide or murder. San Diego police say 32-year-old Rebecca Zahau hanged herself after listening to a troubling voicemail telling her that her millionaire boyfriend Jonah Shacknai`s 6-year-old son Max would likely die from injuries he sustained after falling down the stairs while in her care. He did die a few days later.
Rebecca`s family refuses to believe Rebecca would take her own life. They say it was murder.
MARY ZAHAU, REBECCA ZAHAU`S SISTER: Just the fact that they`re saying my sister came up with this ingenious idea of committing a suicide in a short time frame is beyond me. Absolutely, that does not sound like my sister at all.
PINSKY: Their attorney questions drops of blood found on Rebecca`s leg, mysterious bruises on her body, and more.
ANNE BREMNER, ATTORNEY FOR REBECCA ZAHAU`S FAMILY: She had of course lividity on her back, which meant she died on her back, not hanging. She didn`t have lividity -- of course the pooling of blood, as you know -- in her feet and legs. There was -- the bed itself wasn`t dragged that she was tied to. And it`s like I said before, it`s like a Cirque du Soleil contortionist would have to have done all of these things for her get over this railing.
PINSKY: The family`s attorney insist police told her Jonah called Rebecca at 12:30 a.m., right before she died, but Rebecca`s phone records show us she did not get a call from Jonah. We called police, and all they will say is that Rebecca retrieved a voicemail shortly before 1:00 a.m. A source familiar with the investigation confirmed that Jonah called and left a message, but they do not know what time.
Rebecca`s naked body was found hanging from her balcony. Her ankles and hands, bound with a red rope. Police say forensics point to one cause of death: suicide.
Was the writing on the wall? And if so, what did it mean?
Police say Rebecca painted on a door in black paint, "She saved him. Can he save her?" Black paint was also found on her hands and other parts of her body.
Detectives say her footprints were the only ones found on that balcony. Her DNA was the only DNA on that rope. And the balcony had a smudge that suggested a body her size leaning and falling over the edge.
PINSKY: The family of 28-year-old Rebecca Zahau says they do not believe Rebecca killed herself. Her sister told me weeks ago she believes it was murder. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHAU: -- did not commit a suicide. My sister -- pardon?
PINSKY: Do you have a theory about what did happen?
ZAHAU: I believe that my sister was murdered.
PINSKY: And have you talked to your sister recently, or prior to this event? Had there been a conversation with her?
PINSKY: And did she sound depressed? Did she ever have depression? Has she ever been prone to self-harm? Can you give us those sorts of details?
ZAHAU: My sister never had a psychiatric problem, never been on psychiatric medications, and never has attempted suicide, let alone talk about harming herself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The San Diego Sheriff`s Office insists all the forensic evidence points to one and only one thing, and that is suicide. But why would a suicidal woman strip down naked and then bind her own hands and feet in a way that`s really, if she hadn`t had training in ropes, I don`t understand how she did this. Or are Rebecca`s bizarre actions because of the guilt and trauma over what happened to poor little Max while he was under her care?
Let`s go straight to my guests, legal editor of Radar Online, Jen Heger, and joining us by phone, Brandy Rebecca`s best friend.
Jen, to you first, what`s the latest?
JEN HEGER, LEGAL EDITOR, RADAR ONLINE: The most stunning development happened over the weekend when RadarOnline.com reported that Dina Shacknai, who is Jonah Shacknai`s ex-wife --
PINSKY: She`s the ex-wife that he had a rather tumultuous history with, allegedly.
HEGER: The mother of Max, who has a house several houses away from Jonah`s down in Coronado. It turns out that Dina Shacknai has a twin sister named Nina Romano.
Rebecca Zahau picked up Nina from the airport the day of Max`s tragic accident. On the day that Rebecca was found dead, the evening we think she died, Nina sent a text message to Rebecca at about 10:40 p.m. at night stating that she wanted to go over to the house to talk to Rebecca about Max`s accident.
HEGER: This was never disclosed by the San Diego Sheriff`s Department.
PINSKY: So is it a identical twin, or is it just a fraternal twin?
HEGER: It`s a twin sister.
PINSKY: It`s a twin sister. And where`s that -- how did you find out? Where is that text message? Is it on her phone still?
HEGER: It is on her phone. We got the information from Anne Bremner, who is the Zahau family attorney. She has gotten a hold of Rebecca`s cell phone records.
PINSKY: So now there`s another potential suspect here that no one has ever even known about, let alone brought up.
HEGER: No one has ever even discussed it. And again, we have to go back to the San Diego Sheriff`s Department.
When they had this press conference, they laid out this whole scenario in which they lay Rebecca`s suicide, what they say is a suicide, on this voicemail message that she got allegedly from Jonah Shacknai at 12:50 in the morning. And they said this was a message that said Max had taken a turn for the worse, and then, therefore, she was so distraught.
What they failed to mention was that she actually got a text message at 10:40 p.m. from Dina`s sister, Nina. Where was Nina?
Did Nina take a lie detector test? How extensively has she been questioned? I don`t know. The San Diego Sheriff`s Department won`t call me back.
PINSKY: Now, HLN doesn`t have independent corroboration of this text message you`re reporting on. But my question, and has been consistently been my message, and has got to be the question everyone at home is asking, why won`t San Diego police just put this thing to rest by reopening it and testing all these theories, or just at least be more transparent about what they are -- thinking what they did do?
HEGER: I absolutely could not agree with you more. I think transparency is everything, especially when you`re dealing with law enforcement and you`re dealing with the trust of the public.
They could have the best intentions. We might just be analyzing every detail of this case. The way they have handled how they have revealed these details is horrific. If I was sheriff Bill Gore down in San Diego, I would invite the attorney general, the FBI to come in and to do an independent investigation.
PINSKY: Sure. Is that something horribly expensive that we`re asking for here? I mean, I wonder --
HEGER: I don`t think so.
PINSKY: -- what the limiting factors are. I mean, why not, is sort of my constant refrain. Why not?
HEGER: Why not?
PINSKY: This thing doesn`t seem to go away. Why not?
Now, I spoke to a rope expert who made some really interesting points. I asked if it was even possible -- again, I looked at the tape the police presented as evidence of how she did what she did, tying herself up. And I thought to myself, boy, if I had been an 18th century sailor, maybe I could have tied those knots, maybe. And not only that, but she did it behind her back.
So I asked him how that was possible. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LYNDSEY PHILPOTT, FORENSIC KNOTTING EXPERT: It`s a very curious thing to be able to tie yourself in knots. And seeing the way in which the video displayed it, you first of all have to find the halfway point on the line, and then put it over yourself like this.
PINSKY: Now, how would you know to do that? I would not know to do that unless I were a sailor from the 17th century or something. And, I mean, and I`m a young woman in distress. I`m going to think to do that?
PHILPOTT: I really don`t think that anybody could think to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Could not do it, that somebody without training couldn`t do it, couldn`t certainly do it behind their back.
Now, Jen, I understand there`s something new about the pink rope that Rebecca was hanging from. Apparently, there`s some aerial footage here. Rebecca`s body is blurred, but I understand you have an exclusive photo, Radar Online, where you can`t see -- here`s the picture now. You have a photo where you can`t see the rope.
Is that right?
HEGER: Yes. This was a news helicopter, local news helicopter, that was over Jonah Shacknai`s house in the moments after this was officially reported to the police.
RadarOnline.com, we extensively reviewed this footage. There`s absolutely no pink rope hanging over that balcony. It does not appear, it`s not there.
I talked to the San Diego Sheriff`s Department. They said a Coronado police officer took a picture of that rope, that rope was there for the entire day, we did not take that rope down until the conclusion of our investigation much later on in the evening. At the press conference, when the cops announce that this was a suicide, they showed pictures of the rope hanging over the balcony.
PINSKY: That wasn`t there earlier?
HEGER: That was not there earlier. So how did that rope get there?
PINSKY: Well, you`re going to stay with me, and so is my guest Brandy Memarian, who I haven`t had a chance to get to yet.
Coming up, could a seemingly normal woman suddenly be capable of binding her hands and feet, and gagging herself, and then taking her own life? Is there a possibility that Rebecca could have been so upset, or felt so guilty about the little boy`s accident, that she might have done this? Could secrets from her past give us insight on why this all happened?
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF BILL GORE, SAN DIEGO COUNTY: Were these deaths the result of criminal conduct? Was Max`s death a homicide? The answer is no. It was a tragic accident.
Was Rebecca`s death a homicide? Again, the answer is no. It was a suicide.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPT. TIM CURRAN, SAN DIEGO SHERIFF`S OFFICE: The hands were bound behind the back and the feet were bound. They did not appear to be bound together. I think you used the term "hog-tied." That did not appear to be the case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Welcome back.
Tonight, the drama heats up in the mysterious Coronado mansion deaths. Police say Rebecca Zahau hanged herself, but tonight her family says they believe Rebecca was murdered.
Jen Heger is back with us. She is legal editor for Radar Online. Joining us now is psychotherapist Robi Ludwig. Also, as I mentioned, Rebecca`s friend Brandy Memarian has been with us. She joins us by phone.
Now, Brandy, can you give us your take on all of this?
BRANDY MEMARIAN, FRIEND OF REBECCA ZAHAU`S: Well, it`s just shocking. And I agree with you guys. I mean, I just feel like so much of this could be put easily to rest if they just reopened it and answered some of these questions that we all have.
And it just seems -- I mean, that`s the most frustrating part. You don`t know who you`re fighting against, because the people that you`re supposed to trust, they`re not doing what easily seems, you know, within their ability to do.
PINSKY: And Rebecca (sic), we`re looking at pictures of you -- Brandy and Rebecca right now -- that`s the two of them. And both of you seem like you`re very good friends. I understand that you are, in fact.
And Rebecca seems like a very happy person. Do you know of any evidence of anything in her life that would help us understand what might have happened here?
MEMARIAN: No. I mean, I don`t think any of life`s circumstances that she encountered, even this tragedy of Max, would have pushed her over the edge to do something like this.
You know, I ask myself that same question. You know, with the hardships that I`ve encountered, could I take my life? You know? But even if I were to do something like that, I would never do it like that, and she would never do something like this.
She was a fighter. You know, she had a positive outlook on life. She always felt like there was light at the end of the tunnel.
PINSKY: And Brandy, let me ask you this. I`m going to interrupt you. Did she know how to work with ropes? Did she know how to tie ropes in fancy knots and things?
PINSKY: No. Yes.
MEMARIAN: No, she didn`t.
PINSKY: Thank you, Brandy.
Now, Jen, as Brandy was saying, now, to just be in enough emotional pain to commit suicide doesn`t fit with Rebecca. So you`d have to speculate that she had some sort of psychotic episode where she disconnected from reality and writes weird things on the doors in black block letters that don`t look like her handwriting, all this crazy stuff.
Well, apparently there was a report out today in "The Daily Beast" that detailed some of Rebecca`s past, and it sounded very traumatic. She was -- I guess her dad was a political dissident in Burma, and they were always on the move, and dad was imprisoned for long periods of time.
What do you know about that? And do you think that that was traumatic enough to explain the potential that this might have been a psychotic break?
HEGER: I know according to reports, and from my communication with the Zahau family, she have a tumultuous childhood. You know, Burma is not even recognized as a government by this country.
Her father was in jail for six years, a political prisoner. They were able to move to Germany. And, you know, I think what happened in her childhood, could that have affected her? Possibly. However, everything I learned about her subsequently, after that --
PINSKY: Doesn`t fit.
HEGER: -- it doesn`t fit.
PINSKY: But here is the other thing. That doesn`t fit, and then all these other loose ends you`ve been reporting on don`t fit either.
So, again, why don`t the police open this up?
HEGER: There`s too many.
PINSKY: It`s not going away.
HEGER: We`re not stopping. We are not stopping until we get to the truth.
PINSKY: I think you`re right. And the police have to understand that in San Diego.
Now, the police found a strange message painted on the door in black paint. Here is the police photo. It`s blurred out, but it said, "She saved him. Can he save her?"
Robi, again, I`m wondering the same thing, this highly traumatic past. Again, we`re sort of speculating out of school a bit. And then adding to that, the trauma of losing this young child.
Does it fit for you, someone who had a psychotic break and commit suicide?
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: You know, I have learned never to say "never," and certainly anything is possible. And there`s always some degree of mystery that surrounds a potential suicide, because you never really know what a person`s internal experience is.
Some of the motivations for suicide is really the feeling that people or life will be better off if you`re no longer here. Sometimes there`s a feeling that they`re deserving of punishment or to be killed. But clearly, there are a lot of loose ends here.
But that`s what makes suicide so tricky. But, in general, when we look at the history of somebody who is suicidal, there tends to be a history of mental health issues or drug-related issues or attempted suicide in the past, and that doesn`t seem to exist in Rebecca`s history.
PINSKY: No. That`s right, Robi, we can`t come up with any evidence of anything like that. And that`s why we`re just trying to understand this, and particularly in light of all of these strange new revelations and the unwillingness of the police to open it up.
She had a T-shirt gagged around her mouth. And people say -- the police say she bound her hands and feet and she --
HEGER: Then she put a T-shirt in her mouth?
PINSKY: A T-shirt in her mouth I guess to sort of make sure that she didn`t get away.
HEGER: Didn`t make a sound when she killed herself?
PINSKY: This is not something I`m accustomed to.
HEGER: And she`s naked?
PINSKY: There is a thing as naked suicide, but usually it`s somebody with a lot of difficult past.
HEGER: And with a lot of previous attempts at suicide also.
PINSKY: Yes. And the other thing is -- now, again, looking on the police report, the balcony -- the balcony, they said they had two footprints, right, that were hers, and then there was a smudge on the railing. And then there`s an officer`s footprint.
Now, Rebecca`s family is saying that there was another footprint under the officer`s footprint. Have you heard anything about that?
HEGER: I heard that report also.
PINSKY: Is that anything that`s being pursued? Are the police willing to respond to that?
HEGER: No. They won`t respond. I can`t even get them to call me back.
PINSKY: Can you help me? Why?
HEGER: You know, we have them -- invite them. I would welcome them to come here and to explain themselves. It makes no sense.
PINSKY: We have, and they have not -- my producers tell me that we have specifically sent out an offer. And I would certainly welcome them coming on here.
I love law enforcement. I believe they`re here to protect us. I just want some answers. That`s all. I`ve got to report on this thing, and I would like them to tell me -- find the truth here for this family.
HEGER: I think there a lot of people are saying there`s a cover-up involved with the San Diego Sheriff`s Department. I don`t think it`s -- I don`t think --
PINSKY: I just see somebody who is just unwilling to talk about it and won`t reopen it. And I keep thinking, is it going to cost them money or somebody`s job or something?
I don`t see what -- if they give me that explanation, maybe it would make more sense to me. It`s like, somebody is going to lose their job. Well, I don`t want to make somebody lose their job, but let`s get to the truth here.
There`s somebody dead. There might be a murder. Come on.
HEGER: And we`re not going to stop until we get there.
PINSKY: Well, I appreciate it. Jen Heger, thank you very much.
And, of course, Brandy Memarian.
I appreciate you joining us.
Next, a terrible air show crash, lives lost. We`re going to talk about your thoughts on high-risk events.
And later, Dr. Phil and the Anthonys, part three. Tough questions and some real stunning answers.
Stay with us.
PINSKY: A vintage World War II plane slammed into a field crowded with spectators at a Reno, Nevada, air show on Friday.
Now, I`m warning you, this video is graphic. So be warned. Here we go.
It really is unbelievable. That crash killed 10 people and injured almost 70 more.
We posted this poll question on our Web site today: "Are you willing to assume the risk that comes with attending a potentially dangerous event?"
Forty-one percent of you said yes, 38 percent said no, and 21 percent said every so often. I think that`s interesting. I think they`re more in that "yes" category, I bet.
Let`s hear more of what you have to say. Let`s go to Susan in Canada.
Go right ahead, Susan.
SUSAN, CANADA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
SUSAN: It`s nice to talk to you.
PINSKY: You, too.
SUSAN: I just want to say that I have been to many air shows in Canada. My family grew up together, all going. I know many people wait for this show to come to town.
I believe that many people like to see these kinds of shows, and the pilots flying love to show what they can do. Obviously, they enjoy it very much. But I do think the crowd needs to move back much further in all these kinds of shows. I say yes, assume something could go wrong and move the people back.
PINSKY: Or maybe a deeper informed consent. I mean, maybe this event will teach people that it is dangerous, that it isn`t something they should take lightly, and that they understand there are real risks to going to these things.
But personally -- I would be interested in more of your thoughts -- but I`m not interested in big brother controlling everything we do, like getting rid of air shows or making people watch from miles and miles away. That doesn`t make sense to me.
But let`s be fair. People are taking risk when they go to these environments.
On Facebook, Trish writes, "I think people have it wrong when they see pilots as thrill-seekers. These people are very careful, disciplined and focused. They shouldn`t be seen as adrenaline junkies."
I absolutely agree with Trish. However, as a matter of fact, people are drawn to be pilots, particularly things like extreme acrobatic work with planes, and plane races, and sometimes even fighter pilots, do tend to be the people that have that thrill-seeking edge. And it`s certainly been my experience.
Phil asks, "What causes someone to be a sensation-seeker?"
And there`s a couple of answers to that. I think more than anything else is it`s sort of a genetic component to it.
Those of you that are not sensation-seekers, imagine being drawn to that, or having a motivation, a drive to go seek those kinds of experiences as something highly gratifying. I ain`t one of those people. So when I hear my patients who are thrill-seekers talk about it, I think that just sounds miserable or uncomfortable. I know there`s a different biology going on there.
Kathy writes, "When someone witnesses such a tragic event, what goes through their mind to make them want to attend or perform in the very next event?"
Some people will not. Some people will be unable to do so. But some love this.
For some, it is something that they will look past. They will understand it as a real risk that they assume when they go to these events, and it`s something that realistically they will approach. But again, those that do go back, if they were highly traumatized by the event, risk having memories re-evoked that are not so pleasant.
Next, more stunning revelations as George and Cindy Anthony break their silence. Did George molest Casey? Did Cindy lie under oath?
Their answers when they talk to Dr. Phil. We`ll be analyzing that and more after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Dr. Phil and the Anthonys part three. Tough questions, point blank. Did George molest Casey? Did Cindy lie in court? What really happened to Caylee? His bold questions, their stunning answers, and what their body language said. Were they telling the truth? And would they take Casey back after all the shocking recriminations, lies, and loss.
Later, a sneak peek of what we can expect from Jermaine Jackson on the show Friday. His startling revelations about Michael, medication, and the trial of Dr. Conrad Murray.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): George and Cindy Anthony break their silence, and the nation just can`t stop talking about it, from Cindy`s unwavering support for Casey to George`s tearful admission that Casey likely sedated his granddaughter. It`s a great tragedy. It just will not end. That`s my theory. Remember, Zanny the Nanny theory? Gorge, I think, adheres to my theory about the Xanax and maybe the chloroform. Watch this tape.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: George and Cindy Anthony appear on TV to explain away the death and the disposal of their two-year-old granddaughter, Caylee.
How deep are Casey`s psychological problems? Such a hotly debated topic, and even her parents don`t agree.
DR. PHIL, HOST: Your theory is that she is a victim in this in some way.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Looking back now, I`m almost wondering if she didn`t develop postpartum schizophrenia. There was never any signs that Casey was an unfit mother.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Grandfather George is not buying it, insisting tot mom drugged Caylee to death.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I believe that Casey or someone else that she was with possibly gave too much to Caylee. She fell asleep and didn`t wake up.
PINSKY: On day three of the Anthonys` interview with Dr. Phil, they address the molestation allegation dropped on day one of their daughter`s murder trial. Here`s how it unfolded in that Orlando courtroom. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This child at eight years old learned to lie immediately. She could be 13 years old, have her father`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in her mouth, and then go to school and play with the other kids as if nothing ever happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, did George Anthony molest his daughter? Dr. Phil asked the couple that question point blank. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PHIL: George, did you ever touch your daughter inappropriately?
GEORGE ANTHONY: No, sir, I did not.
DR. PHIL: Ever sexually molest her at any age in any way at any time?
GEORGE ANTHONY: No, sir, I did not. I did not. I could not -- I couldn`t do that and would not do that.
DR. PHIL: Do you believe that?
CINDY ANTHONY: Absolutely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Here to share insight is bounty hunter, Rob Dick. He spent time in the Anthony home during those key days that authorities were still looking for Little Caylee, and Mark Edgar Stephens is a body language specialist. First, Rob, Cindy seems adamant that George did not molest Casey. Is she just standing by her man?
ROB DICK, BOUNTY HUNTER: No, I don`t believe it for a second. George never touched her. I mean, think about it. If it came from Casey, you know it`s a lie. No way.
PINSKY: Yes. I think we all learned that very early on in the course of this trial. That`s the only thing that we ever knew for sure. How about, Rob, what Cindy is saying. Is there anything that we`re learning from her that you think is new information or any change in her attitude for your perspective?
DICK: Well, there was a couple of times where I think she slipped a little bit, and they didn`t go far enough. One time she said she started to when she came home that night, and then she changed it to the 16th, which doesn`t make sense for what we know happened. And then, the other time was when she said the last straw was when she started taking money from her mother, being Cindy`s mother.
PINSKY: Meaning not Cindy herself, but the grandmother of Casey, is that right?
DICK: Correct. When she confronted Casey, which we talked about that night of the 15th, that big fight that, you know, they just won`t come out and admit, she started to talk about it a little bit. She said the last straw was when she learned that Casey was taking money from her mother, meaning Casey`s grandmother.
PINSKY: And Rob, what is it do you think that she needs to say or meant to say?
DICK: Well, she changed it twice. Like I said, she doesn`t want to talk about a fight on the night of the 15th. We keep bringing it up. There`s no witnesses to it. Everybody won`t talk about it. They talk about the incident happening the day of the 16th. Two times Cindy slipped.
PINSKY: So, you think that the fight with Cindy had something to do with Casey`s action, is that what you`re suggesting?
DICK: Yes. One hundred percent I believe that Casey left the house that night.
PINSKY: OK. Now, Mark, let`s take another look at Cindy as she reacts to Phil`s molestation question. She seems to lose eye contact during the questioning. There she is. Now, he`s asking, she`s looking at George, he asks the question. She has trouble even looking at George during that. Tell me about that.
MARK EDGAR STEPHENS, BODY LANGUAGE SPECIALIST: Yes. This is a classic case of when someone literally wants to close down what it is that they`re seeing or hearing, she drops with the oculars. They`re in the eye. She drops down as if she`s shading what`s happening. Whenever we are talking about something that either we don`t want to be true or that is untrue for us, we will literally close down our eyes. And you`ll see if it`s a prolonged close, it`s such a strong --
PINSKY: She does sort of look away here.
STEPHENS: That is exactly right. What is consistent in Cindy`s body language in terms of every time she hears something she doesn`t want is she does deflective body language. She literally looks away, and she`ll tilt her head away as if deflecting a physical blow.
PINSKY: So, like she`s moving away, turning away. And I notice also, you and I talked a bit about this that she`s showing a bit more contempt, not just for George. It seems to kind of spread around.
PINSKY: She doesn`t like the whole topic anymore.
STEPHENS: What`s happened so much is that Cindy is hearing so much that she doesn`t want to hear, and she`s so invested in the ideas of Casey being innocent.
PINSKY: Being OK.
STEPHENS: Being OK. That she is literally deflecting everything around her that she is hearing as if none of it`s real. But the thing is with self deception, it`s not so conscious as much as she`s literally trying to deflect everything that`s going on.
PINSKY: So, her body is deflecting it, her mind doesn`t even get the reception of what she`s hearing.
STEPHENS: That`s right. That`s right.
PINSKY: Now, during the trial, witnesses revealed that Casey may have used chloroform to sedate Caylee, but on June 23rd 2011, Cindy Anthony takes the stand, and she says that she, not Casey, searched for the word chloroform on the Anthony`s home computer. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAEZ: Do you recall in March of 2008, you doing any types of searches for any items that might include chloroform?
CINDY ANTHONY: Yes. And I started looking up chloroform, I mean chlorophyll. And then, that prompted me to look up chloroform.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And one week later, Cindy`s former employer then took the stand and cast doubts on Cindy`s claim. So, the question is, did Cindy lie under oath to protect her daughter? Let`s watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PHIL: People have observed and said is that you lied on the witness stand about the chloroform. Did you lie?
CINDY ANTHONY: No, I did not.
DR. PHIL: Just to be very clear, you didn`t claim to look it up to take heat off --
CINDY ANTHONY: No.
DR. PHIL: Or Casey looking it up.
CINDY ANTHONY: No, absolutely not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Mark, what do you think? We see anything from her on the stand versus her talking to Phil?
STEPHENS: Yes. There`s a couple of things that happened. Once again, we see the eyes closing down as if she doesn`t want to deal with that. There`s something else that happens that`s very interesting, Dr. Drew, and I saw it also with George, which is whenever we`re talking about something that doesn`t feel good and we want to lead someone else`s feelings, we`ll actually lead them with like a little smile at the end.
So, when she said no, absolutely not, she gives a smile. That`s not so much her smile as she`s trying to get him to feel everything is OK. See, everything is fine. She does that at the end whereas, if it`s something that you`re so absolutely strong about, you can say that and not show any emotion. It`s just boom. That`s the way that it is.
PINSKY: Rob, do you make anything about these changes in her -- what she`s alleging, both in the courtroom and what we heard her say with Dr. Phil?
DICK: Oh, yes. All along. Cindy -- I mean, Cindy is going to go as far as she can to cover for Casey. I mean, it`s just -- unfortunately, it`s mother`s love at that point, I think. I mean, she just doesn`t want to believe it, you know? George has come to the realization, but Cindy hasn`t.
PINSKY: I think you`re right, Rob. And unfortunately, there`s a lot of parents out there that see their kids as an extension of themselves. I have less than 30 seconds left. Can you sort of construct that for us?
STEPHENS: Yes. Yes.
STEPHENS: Basically, what it is is we`re creating a protective shell around ourselves, and our body is always reflecting whatever it is that we`re protecting. So, this mother literally carried Casey around for nine months. So, now, she`s using everything in her body language to create or construct a story that is going to will keep Casey safe.
PINSKY: And keep Casey perfect and still a part of her, when in fact it`s a kid that`s impaired, and the impairments, we`re beginning to learn, led to the death of a child. It could have done something earlier merely by just acknowledging that this kid needed help back in high school when she wasn`t going to -- she didn`t even show up for high school at the end. Why didn`t they do something then? It`s so ridiculous.
PINSKY: All right. Now, next, suppose Casey Anthony she showed up at her parents` front door, would George and Cindy let her back in their lives? Their answers when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: I miss you, sweetie.
VOICE OF CASEY ANTHONY, FORMER DEFENDANT: I know, dad. I miss you, too.
GEORGE ANTHONY: I wish I could have been a better dad and grandpa, you know?
CASEY ANTHONY: You`ve been a great dad, and you`ve been the best grandfather. Don`t, for a second, think otherwise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Welcome back. Casey Anthony calls her father a great dad, then accuses him of molesting her and covering up her daughter`s drowning. George and Cindy Anthony denied those allegations in the first interview since their daughter`s murder trial. And tonight, share more insights into the tragedy that`s enveloped their lives.
Joining us are Brett Schulman and Kelly Hea. They had coveted seats in the Orlando courtroom during Casey`s trial. They were part of "My Jury." They were on the street there. They were checking in with them, if you remember, on a daily basis, and they gave us a lot of interesting information about what was going on in the courtroom.
Let`s watch Casey in the courtroom again as she views her jailhouse conversation with her dad, this time, without sound. There she is. Remember, she`s telling her dad during this tape that he is the best dad in the world. Oh, yes, you`re wonderful. Mark, she looks angry. Who is she mad at? Or is she just disassociated and checked out? Or what are we seeing here?
STEPHENS: Yes. Exactly that. It is as if she`s watching a movie, and the movie that she`s watching is all a lie. Unfortunately, the movie that she`s watching is herself saying what a great dad he is, and yet, she`s sitting there and checking her head and looking at it like it`s all a lie. It`s as if we have two different people, the person who is in the video saying dad is great, and the person who`s watching it saying, oh, no, he`s not.
PINSKY: Wow! Now, George and Cindy have not seen or talked to Casey since the not-guilty verdict was delivered over two months ago. Dr. Phil asked them, what would happen if Casey suddenly knocked on the door and wall stun in (ph). Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PHIL: If she showed up on your front porch tomorrow, and said I`m broke, I`m lost, I have nowhere to go, I want to come home, what would you say?
CINDY ANTHONY: Lee and I would find a place for her.
DR. PHIL: Would she be welcome in your home?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Not while I was there, no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I think that sort of speaks for itself, right? By the way, it`s interesting. I felt that Cindy was in a great deal of pain listening to that, which is sort of surprising that just the idea of seeing her child again or where she might be is evoking pain. And then, I like George sort of 90-degree ahead of her --
STEPHENS: Yes. Yes.
PINSKY: Which means he doesn`t like any of this.
STEPHENS: That`s exactly right. What you just said is exactly right. One of the things that`s most consistent also is when Cindy says, yes, she does mean she would take her in. George is very clear. Obviously, we see the no. The pain that you`re picking up, though, is what shows up so easily in Cindy, because she is feeling such pain.
I mean, everything is, you have to imagine, it`s like that shell that we talked about with the body, and it`s cracking all around her. So, literally, you can see this happening in her body. You can see in her face. You can see it of everything.
PINSKY: That`s true. Now, Bret, George says he would not welcome his daughter home. What`s the word on the street there in Orlando? Do people -- I mean, do people see the Anthonys walking around? Do they expect them to welcome her back into their life? What`s the sort of pulse on the street?
BRETT SCHULMAN, COURTROOM OBSERVER AT CASEY ANTHONY TRIAL: Well, a lot of people in this area have basically just -- besides themselves, just thinking this of, well, if we see them, that`s great. We`ll hold them in our arms. We`ll support them. They believe in George and Cindy, and they know for a fact that they have nothing to do for it. They absolutely loved that grandchild and they miss her dearly.
They have been spotted around the area. They`ve also we all know that they`ve been on vacation, having a great time, which they deserve, because they`ve been through a tremendous a lot of pain. They really support her, and I think our community is just holding them in their arms. And, they do love them. They do care about them.
PINSKY: And, Kelly, how about you. What if you came upon Casey walking down the street? Are you going to buy her a soda or are you going to push her into oncoming traffic?
KELLY HEA, COURTROOM OBSERVER AT CASEY ANTHONY TRIAL: I`d probably push her into oncoming traffic. No. I mean, I honestly don`t think she`ll be seen by the public for quite some time. Everyone is still very angry at her. So, my advice to her is to stay far away for now.
PINSKY: You know, I joke about it because this whole thing is so wild, but this has concerned me from the beginning is that somebody would do something awful, and we have another crime on their hands. So, please, it`s not something worthy of joking. So, please, I apologize for taking light of this, but it`s such a wild situation. Now, Rob, do you think Casey will ever see her parents again? What`s your sense of this?
DICK: I think Cindy will always try. I mean, Cindy wants to still think that she`s going to get the truth out of her and wants to hear the story, on and on. So, yes. Cindy is always going to be there for her. I don`t think George and Casey should be alone, though. Otherwise, George just might get the truth out of her. I don`t think he`s -- he resolved himself with what he feels happened and that she`s the reason why it happened. So, yes, I don`t think --
PINSKY: You`re using some really sinister language there, Rob. You really think George is capable of that?
DICK: To be honest with you, we`ve had some concerns while we were there. That`s why we had to make sure there was safety precautions in place. There was a couple of things that came up that concerned me, and --
PINSKY: Can you be more specific? Rob, Rob, you`re talking in code. Be more specific.
DICK: Well, the fight was very serious that morning. You know, George had to leave the first morning that she was there. George was going to get the answers. That was stopped by Jim and Cindy. You know, they had to keep him off of her and keep him from getting the truth. And then, the gun incident, you know?
When he talks about that in interview that he got the gun to get the answers, I truly believe the answers were going to come from Casey. Possibly Casey, and then, he would, you know, do whatever he had to do between her and him.
PINSKY: Now, Mark --
PINSKY: I get it, Rob, but what you`re telling us, you know, for those of us that have some clinical background, what we`re hearing here is if we put this all together based on what we`re all hearing here, we have a woman, Casey, who has some sort of neuropsychiatric impairment, who knows what, and again, is not by way of explaining or blaming what she did, she did horrible things.
She needs to be held accountable for it. You have parents, one that`s in massive denial and can`t acknowledge that the kid is impaired or is capable of these things. We have the other is going to the other extreme exactly. They really have two flipped sides of the same coin, aren`t they? Can you help the viewers understand that?
STEPHENS: Yes. George is so invested in finding the truth of this, and he`s doing something very consistent. He`s showing upturned hands, which is honesty. The other thing is, when he referred to that other person who might have helped Casey with this, he literally looked as if he`s remembering who that person is, not that he was there, but he`s played it so much in his own mind that he is trying to analyze all of this and figure the whole thing out.
The more he does that and the more Cindy decides that she doesn`t want to deal with the truth of what`s going on, the more separate they are going to get and the more separate that relationship is going to get. It will be unfortunate for them as a couple, but until Casey comes clean with whatever it is that`s happened, there`s no hope.
PINSKY: Yes. I don`t see that happening.
PINSKY: Do you think this much -- I didn`t give them -- I didn`t expect them to be together this long. Do you think there`s much hope for that marriage?
STEPHENS: Based on what I`m seeing in terms of body language, no. They`re getting farther and farther apart.
PINSKY: Now, Rob, Cindy said that she would let Casey babysit if Lee were to have a child. Aw! What do you think?
DICK: Just like we said, I mean, Cindy is in so much denial. She`s been in denial the whole time. I mean, she just really, even to this day, does not believe Casey is capable of what happened.
PINSKY: I think you are absolutely -- yes. I think you are absolutely right. I think that statement about handing her over as a babysitter, I like the idea of her showing up to babysitting agency, and people are like what`s the name, please, are you kidding me? Are you kidding me?
Thank you Kelly and Bret. I appreciate you guys having been a part of "My Jury." Rob, of course, always a pleasure to have you. And Mark Edgar, I do appreciate you being here. Pleasure. It`s very interesting.
Next, Joy Behar is here. We`re talking Michael Jackson, Dr. Conrad Murray, and more. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERMAINE JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S BROTHER: I walked a few (ph) and was found to his room and he was laying. And to see Michael like this just tore me apart. He was laying on his bed (INAUDIBLE). And I felt that he was lifeless, but I felt that his spirit was everywhere.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was Jermaine Jackson, recounting seeing Michael Jackson`s body shortly after his death. I`m here with my colleague and host of HLN`s "The Joy Behar Show." Of course, it is the lovely Joy Behar. Joy, thank you so much for joining me.
JOY BEHAR, HOST, HLN`S "THE JOY BEHAR SHOW": Hi, Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Joy. And you had a chance to sit with Jermaine one-on- one. The interview airs tonight. My question is, were there any surprises for you and what did you hope to learn in the interview?
BEHAR: Well, he doesn`t really indict Dr. Murray directly, but he does say things like well, he was in the room, and he administered the propofol. So, it sounds as though he thinks that he did something nefarious, but he doesn`t say. When you ask him directly, did he actually kill your brother, he doesn`t say yes. So, I was a little surprised at that.
PINSKY: That is a little surprising. And, I had a chance to read Jermaine`s book over the weekend, and there was a couple of things in the book that bothered me. One is that he chronicles really spectacular physical abuse that Michael endured where he was hit -- not just a belt but the buckle end of a belt. I mean, that`s like a medieval torture instrument. Did he talk anything about those kinds of issues?
BEHAR: Oh, yes. It`s interesting that you bring that up, because what he wrote in the book, apparently, is not that saying as what he`s saying in an interview. What he`s saying to me is basically that it was, you know, just run of the mill discipline is the way he makes it sound, you know?
And I say, well, Michael had to pick out his own branch that he was then going to get hit with, and Jermaine said, he had to pick out his own branch, and it was just part of the protection that Joe Jackson was providing to prevent them from being in a gang in Gary, Indiana or from taking drugs. In other kids, the kids would be more afraid of Joe than the gang.
So, they would not go off and do these terrible things because they would be afraid of what Joe would do to them and had that kind of vibe, but he definitely minimizes the abuse. He doesn`t make it sound like it was sadistic. It sounds like that to us, though, doesn`t it?
PINSKY: Sure does. I mean, he sort of let`s it slip in the book, too. It`s sort of like -- the same kind of defensive attitude is in the book, but then, he sort of let`s it slip that well, you know, when you hear the belt ripping flesh on your back, I thought oh, my God. He was hitting with a belt buckle, not just the belt. So, I`m very interested to see this interview, so we will all tune in tonight. Joy Behar --
PINSKY: Jermaine Jackson, tune in. Thank you, Joy, for joining me. I appreciate it.
PINSKY: And a few words before we go here now. We`ve all learned -- if you learned anything at all from the Casey Anthony case, it is, perhaps, this. If you got a child in trouble, get help, right? You can change the trajectory with early intervention. But first, you have to admit that something is wrong. If problems are looming, one of the scariest things I ever hear parents say, it`s not my child, or the flip side, that`s just a bad kid.
They`re either in denial or dismissive. Both are destructive to kids in trouble. Now, I understand that these are difficult financial times, but there is help out there from schools and counselors, and it`s increasingly clear that in the Casey Anthony case, serious danger could have been headed off at the pass if George and Cindy had acknowledged these issues effecting their family.
Avoidance is just not an option. Be realistic, if you possibly can, get help. Here`s a case we can learn from. Thanks for watching. We`ll see you next time.