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Defense`s Turn in Murder Trial of Millionaire Bob Ward
Aired September 21, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
It`s the defense`s turn in the millionaire murder trial. What role, if any, did alcohol and pills play in Diane Ward`s controversial death?
Plus, a nursing student vanishes. Her body is found four months later. Who wanted her dead, and why?
And reality housewife Taylor Armstrong speaks publicly for the first time since her husband committed suicide.
We are live tonight, so let`s get started.
And thanks for joining us tonight.
It is the defense`s turn in the murder trial of millionaire Bob Ward, charged with killing his wife, Diane. Ward claims it was an accident, that he tried to stop her from killing herself. The state says it wasn`t an accident at all, rather a planned murder to keep his wife from giving a deposition in a financial investigation against him.
His defense team called their first witness to the stand earlier today. Watch, and then we will talk about it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In performing this autopsy, were you able to determine the cause of death of Diane Ward?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what was the cause of death?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gunshot wound to the head.
PINSKY (voice-over): New twists and turns in what we`re calling the millionaire murder trial.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Florida prosecutors have rested their case against Bob Ward.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the very first words out of Bob Ward`s mouth --
BOB WARD, DEFENDANT: I just shot my wife.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- "I just shot my wife."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His story has changed several times. First, saying that he shot his wife, that it was an accident, and then saying it was suicide.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It gets more and more bizarre, the jailhouse videos of him literally dancing and doing a striptease when he`s supposed to be mourning his wife.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It doesn`t look like a family that`s grieving to me. Does it look like it to you?
PINSKY: Joining me tonight, Mike Galanos, anchor, HLN`s "NEWS NOW," who`s outside the Orange County, Florida, courthouse; Florida prosecutor Stacey Honowitz; and jury consultant and body language expert Susan Constantine.
Mike, how was day one for the defense today in court?
MIKE GALANOS, HOST, "NEWS NOW": Well, Drew, day one was all about the experts. Yesterday we saw a motion, Bob Ward pounding his fist on the table, and his daughter crying on the stand. This is about experts. And a lot of it surrounded the gun.
They had a DNA expert say Diane Ward`s DNA was on the gun. That`s not good for the prosecution. They want the jury to have the picture in their mind that only Bob Ward held that gun and shot his wife.
You had a forensic pathologist come on and say that there was a struggle. He did a second autopsy on Diane Ward, and in a struggle anything can happen.
They also had a firearms expert say that that gun was not 18 inches, but 6 to 12 inches when it was fired. The closer the gun is to Diane Ward, more chance she could have shot herself, more the chance it went off in a struggle.
Again, good points for the defense as they try to get that reasonable doubt express rolling -- Drew.
PINSKY: Now, one of the state`s final witnesses was chief medical examiner Dr. Jan Garavaglia, known as "Dr. G." She believes Diane Ward`s death in fact was a homicide, not a suicide, as the defense contends.
Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. JAN GARAVAGLIA, CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER, OSCEOLA COUNTY, FLORIDA: It is very unusual to have a suicide that is not a contact wound. You see that in about two percent of cases. And when you do see that, it`s usually very close.
Having something out a foot or 18 inches is very unusual. So something else is going on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right, Susan. How strong of an expert do you think Dr. Garavaglia was for the state?
SUSAN CONSTANTINE, JURY CONSULTANT: Well, the -- for the state? I think that Dr. G. is a great, you know, professional expert in the field. So, yes, I think that she was very -- you know, very compelling.
But most of all is watching the jury, you know, what is the jury really thinking? Because it really doesn`t matter what I think or what anyone else thinks. What does the jury think?
And I`ve got to tell you, this jury pool is making notes for both the state and defense. So at this point in time, I really couldn`t tell you exactly what side they`re pulling on. But Dr. G. made quite an impression in that courtroom today.
PINSKY: You know, I was watching a little footage here of the prosecution sort of marching around, being kind of abrasive. Do you think that adversely affects the jurors?
CONSTANTINE: Are you talking about the state`s attorney?
PINSKY: I think that`s who I -- we just saw some footage of her a few minutes ago, and she seemed a little -- I imagine the jury might be a little put off by some of those kind of -- that abrasiveness. This is a family tragedy here.
CONSTANTINE: Yes, exactly. And I think I shared this before, too, with your viewers, is that she doesn`t resonate with me very well.
And she doesn`t resonate with the rest of -- she`s like a bulldog in there. She`s very harsh. She`s very condescending. She`s argumentative. And I`ve got to tell you, this is not a way to persuade this jury, because rapport building, likeability is what wins over juries.
PINSKY: Now, today the defense called Dr. William Anderson to testify how the gun could have gone off from any angle. Now, watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Consistent, taking into consideration the range and the path, is that -- and the wound, the characteristics of the wound, is that consistent with a struggle over a gun based on your experience?
DR. WILLIAM ANDERSON, DEFENSE WITNESS: Well, it is. Certainly if people are struggling over a weapon, you can have almost anything occur -- different angles head moving, body moving, individual moving, and so forth, when a gun actually goes off. So there`s no bets necessarily that you could be sure. Now, one thing we know, that from the standpoint of a gunshot wound suicide, this is highly unlikely, because people don`t shoot themselves from -- intentionally from 14 inches away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Stacey, how do you think Dr. William Anderson did on the stand today?
STACEY HONOWITZ, PROSECUTOR: Well, listen, I mean, it`s the defense`s case. So of course they have to go with the fact that it was a struggle and that it was an accident. Basically, that`s what the testimony has to be.
I think he answered the questions the way in which the defense wanted him to answer. We don`t know what happened in that room.
The problem is, when the prosecutor gets back up, there`s other things to base the evidence on, and that is a motive. Very rarely do you have -- you never have to prove motive in a murder case, but in this case you do have it.
You have the testimony of Dr. G. You have the fact that the wife was not depressed. We didn`t hear testimony about that. We heard that she drank, but you didn`t hear anybody ever come take the stand and say that she was suicidal.
Also, you have the fact that she was going to testify against him in a deposition about his finances, and the fact that he wasn`t the person that he`s perceived to be. And the money was missing and he embezzled some of the money. So there was motive and there`s opportunity in this case, and I think that`s what the prosecutors are hanging their hat on.
PINSKY: And Stacey, you`re going to see in a few minutes, we`re going to look at some footage of how he gets very intense when financial issues are brought out.
Now, Mike, you were there when the state rested yesterday. How do you think Bob Ward`s defense team is feeling about its chances?
GALANOS: Well, there was some confidence, Drew, as the state rested their case. I was just a few feet from Bob Ward as people were filing out of the courtroom. And a friend of Bob Ward`s walked up to him, put a hand on his shoulder, and basically said, "That`s all they`ve got."
And there was a confident tone to that. And I think there is a confidence with the defense right now that they`re able to attack the experts of the prosecution like we saw today.
And it`s going to come down to, who does the jury believe? What story do they believe at the end of the day happened on September 21, 2009?
PINSKY: Now, Mike, the toxicology reports showed that Diane had alcohol in her system, and apparently also high amounts of the antidepressant Celexa. Now, while Stacey was saying that there was no evidence that she was complaining about depression, Celexa is an antidepressant. It`s for depression.
My question is, did the defense press hard with their case to show that Diane was depressed and contemplating suicide?
GALANOS: Well, that was the first witness today, Drew, a toxicologist, a Dr. Jimmy Valentine (ph). And he pointed that out, and tried to do it in simple terms, that if you have someone who`s taking Celexa -- and they pointed out, it`s four times the normal amount. Her blood alcohol was 1.5 times the normal amount. So if you add those two together, that`s going to increase the effects of the drug, you could have the erratic behavior.
Now, the prosecution I thought did a good job countering that, saying, all right, she`s been taking Celexa for about four-and-a-half years. Never did she ever mention suicidal thoughts, being despondent, anything.
The only thing she would check off as she saw doctors was anxiety. And in her last visit, basically, she was coping better with the family`s financial stress, which has really been mounting. So that`s a point for the prosecution -- Drew.
PINSKY: So let me be a defense -- rather a medical expert on the stand here and make some sense of all that for people at home, which is that Celexa`s an antidepressant, but it is also used for anxiety. And I guess she formally had a diagnosis for anxiety, and that`s probably what they`re using it for.
Sometimes they use high doses. We don`t really have a set blood level for those sorts of medications. Sometimes a doctor will prescribe more than is sort of routine. That doesn`t mean it`s being misused.
But sometimes, say, a bipolar disorder gets missed and they get manicky, and manic patients are more likely to kill themselves when they`re manic. Also, the Celexa itself, there`s some slight evidence that it increases suicidiality.
So there`s a lot of stuff going on here. Plus, you throw in the alcohol -- and apparently they both drank quite a bit -- and there is no telling what people under the influence of alcohol might do that is completely uncharacteristic of what they might do when they are sober.
So, thank you, guys. Thank you to Mike, Stacey, Susan. Very interesting. Obviously, we`re going to keep up on this case and keep talking about it.
Up next, Bob Ward says he was trying to stop his wife from killing herself, but his behavior behind bars was bizarre. I mean, how does he explain that?
We`re going to try to answer that question when we come back. Stay with us.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911. What`s your emergency?
WARD: I just shot my wife.
911 OPERATOR: You just what?
WARD: I just shot my wife.
911 OPERATOR: Where`s your wife?
WARD: She`s right here on the floor.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WARD: Diane`s dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, no.
WARD: I probably can`t tell you anything right now other than she`s dead. And it was an accident.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Make sure that -- no, I wouldn`t do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Welcome back.
It`s day one for Bob Ward`s defense. You just saw two bizarre things with this case.
First, Ward admits to shooting his wife, Diane. That`s in the 911 call. Now, by the way, that was actually -- that tape was two years to the date today.
And second, his behavior behind bars with his family member seems odd and difficult to explain. It seems a little manicky to me, in fact.
The defense is claiming that Bob didn`t murder his wife, that the shooting was an accident. The gun went off, they say, when Ward was trying to save his wife from suicide.
Now, today`s testimony focused on Diane`s DNA that was found on the gun, the alcohol and antidepressants found in the system. And I just, before the break, sort of addressed that with you guys, that it`s a little more complicated than it seems. And the forensic experts who say it could have been a suicide.
So, Mike, back to you again.
How does the defense deal with that 911 tape where Bob says very clearly, "I shot my wife"?
GALANOS: Well, again, they`re going with that -- the struggle. You know, I mean, in watching this, and just listening to it all over again, he is just so deadpan, Drew, as he`s talking about it. And he said it five times, "I just shot my wife."
So the prosecution, that`s a great starting point. You basically have a confession.
And then they continue to pile on with that. OK, after that, you get the evolving story of -- and he says different things: "Diane shot herself." "The gun just went off." "I don`t know what happened."
All that`s good for the prosecution. I think that`s some of their best stuff. Defense, they`re just going with reasonable doubt to try and combat that.
PINSKY: And Mike, what is all that bizarre behavior in jail? Can you make any sense of that? I know you`ve seen that footage. His daughter`s dancing in front of him and he`s -- it`s just -- and they must have known there were cameras going, right?
GALANOS: I would think. I would think, because you see that.
And just part of this case is just, you`re like, what? You know, you see some things, and that`s just the refrain. It`s a head scratcher.
You know, I`ve had a chance to see how the daughters interact outside of the courtroom. And, you know, you just don`t catch that heaviness of what`s going on here. Your dad is accused of shooting your mom, and he`s facing second-degree murder.
And then like you said, you look back at those tapes, and it all adds up. I mean, he was never emotional, any detective who was around him.
He`s talking about football on the drive from his house -- his wife`s dead, laying at his feet -- to the sheriff`s office. He`s talking football. He`s described as upbeat as he`s got handcuffs behind his back. Unbelievable.
PINSKY: I don`t know. I smell psychiatric problems all over him and her, frankly, the way this seems. But all right.
Now, forensic DNA consultant Nancy Whitney Peterson took the stand today and said that there was DNA on the gun. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was there enough DNA in this minor profile to identify who it belonged to?
NANCY WHITNEY PETERSON, DNA CONSULTANT: At several sites there is enough DNA.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And who did it belong to?
PETERSON: Diane Ward.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And is it true about Diane Ward`s DNA as it was about Mr. Ward`s DNA, that we`ll never be able to tell if hers came from the trigger or the grip?
PETERSON: That`s true.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Stacey, help me interpret the DNA evidence. So, so what? So Diane`s DNA was on the gun. I don`t think anyone has suggested that she wasn`t handling the gun.
I guess, isn`t the question, is his DNA on the gun?
HONOWITZ: Yes. I mean, obviously, the prosecutors have that kind of information.
I mean, here`s what you have. You have a case where there`s so much behavioral evidence that somebody looking at this tape might say, listen, not only did he not care that he shot his wife, you have her own sister and her daughter who come to the jail, and basically everyone seems to be la- di-da happy that this woman is dead.
No evidence whatsoever that she was depressed or committing suicide. No evidence whatsoever that there was any kind of struggle. Did he ever say to anybody there was a struggle, other than when he changed his story four or five times?
And so what you have is the defense coming in and saying yes, her DNA`s on there, so, jurors, listen. Obviously, she was handling the gun, she was responsible. And the prosecutor will counter that with all the other evidence, saying what he confessed to, his DNA on the gun, the idea that his behavior and his deadpan affect of not caring --
PINSKY: Hey, Stacey --
HONOWITZ: -- obviously leads us to believe -- yes?
PINSKY: Stacey, I`m going to interrupt you. I have a crazy question.
In the control room you just showed a picture of a dark gun. I want you to put that up again.
And I don`t know if you can see this or not, Stacey.
HONOWITZ: I can`t.
PINSKY: But it almost looked like a six-shooter. It looked like a strange gun for somebody to sort of -- there it is. It`s like something Clint Eastwood would have. It`s very strange.
Is there anything about the gun? Have you heard anything about it? Is there anything unusual about it? They just sort of struck my eyes. Does that mean anything to you, Stacey?
HONOWITZ: No. The bottom line is it`s a firearm. And that`s all they need to show and that`s all they need to know. How unusual it is isn`t really going to play a role. But all these other things are going to play a role.
And when you have a case like this, where you have somebody who has some kind of excuse -- because that`s what I want to say, it`s an excuse, it`s not a defense -- that she was drinking and she was suicidal, this is all the things that the jury has to consider. They have to look at the credibility -- they have to throw everything else in there.
It`s not just about the forensics, as we saw in the Casey Anthony case that we talked about. It`s everything else that flows from it.
It`s behavior. It`s the phone call. It`s the conversation with the police.
This is what the jury`s going to hang its hat on. And one other thing I want to talk about, Drew, if I can.
PINSKY: Real quick. I`ve got to get to some other stuff.
HONOWITZ: Real quick, the idea that the state`s attorney is abrasive, the judge reads an instruction that`s going to say, how you feel about the lawyers really doesn`t matter. And that`s one thing I don`t think the jury should take into consideration.
PINSKY: I would hope not certainly.
But this Casey Anthony person, who is that you speak of? I`m not sure if our viewers have heard of that case.
Anyway, it seems when the topic goes to money, Bob does get very serious. And this is something I found interesting.
Mike, there was another outburst in court today with Bob. Can you tell us what happened there?
GALANOS: And you`re right. Gosh, we know that e-mail. Hours after Diane`s dead, he sends an e-mail to the bankruptcy attorney saying, "You (EXPLETIVE), I hope you`re happy with yourself. Diane killed herself. Go to hell."
So, man, whenever you talk about money and bankruptcy -- well, they had a bankruptcy law expert on and he was for the defense. And they were trying to point out that if Diane`s dead, that doesn`t help Bob financially, because then they could -- her assets become his, and then they could go after them.
But then the prosecutor got up there, Robin Wilkinson, who we`ve been talking about, and she starts saying, wait, you don`t know their whole financial picture, and we get the picture of, OK, $100,000 for a Porsche, $80,000 for a BMW, $50,000 for a Cadillac. And then there`s more questions about a life insurance policy.
And he gets up and goes, "Insurance policy!" And this was all outside the jury`s presence, by the way. But he had the outburst.
The judge reprimanded him. And that`s outburst number two for him.
PINSKY: And so -- and Susan --
GALANOS: So he could be a little bit of a loose cannon, obviously.
PINSKY: It seems like it.
And Susan, last question to you. I have less than 30 seconds.
My understanding is he knocks his -- he brings his fist down occasionally. And again, whenever he has these outbursts, it seems to be about money. Did you witness any of that? You`ve got about 20 seconds.
CONSTANTINE: Absolutely. These are his emotional triggers.
And when you hit on finances, his life insurance, bankruptcy, it`s his ego that gets in the way. You start to see these nonverbal leakages, and he loses control. When he knows he doesn`t have control, he loses control. And this is the impulse control issues.
PINSKY: We`ve got to interrupt, Susan.
We will be right back.
Thank you to my panel. I appreciate your comments.
PINSKY: Check this out. Parenting.com is reporting a shocking story.
One in seven preschoolers are taking a psychiatric medication. This includes but isn`t limited to stimulants, antidepressants, and anti-anxiety medication.
Now, we asked this of you on our Web site today: "Are doctors too quick to prescribe medication to young children?" Here are the results.
Seventy-five percent of you said yes. Fourteen percent of you said no. And 11 percent said you`re not quite sure about this.
So that`s a topic I want to discuss. So let`s hear what some of you are saying.
Nakia in Washington State, go right ahead.
NAKIA, WASHINGTON: Dr. Drew, thanks for taking my call.
PINSKY: My pleasure.
NAKIA: I think toddlers being put on mood stabilizers is just way too much. You know, I`m the mother of two toddlers who are very active, and I don`t think putting them on Adderall or Ritalin is the best answer to calming them down. And I also think that some parents who can`t get their own children under control, they rely on these so-called experts for help.
PINSKY: Well, they are experts, now. And that`s one of the points I`d like to make, which is there`s some data that suggests we are over- prescribing these medications, there`s just no debate about it.
However, in certain parts of the country there`s probably under- prescribing. That`s how crazy-making this all is.
So the one piece of advice I would give to parents out there who are trying to decide what to do, I would urge that you don`t have it done by just a primary care physician. You can have it followed by a primary care, a pediatrician, or whatnot, but have it initiated by an expert. Have the kids thoroughly tested.
Ashley tweets, "If they`re in preschool, that is way too young. That`s too young to even diagnose them with anything," she says on her Twitter.
Well, that`s another point, which is even though you can have them very effectively tested and whatnot, you get it to a point where they`re too young to have a diagnosis. I absolutely agree with that point. That`s a very, very solid point.
And there may be alternatives. Be sure to ask about alternatives. And consider it`s a very challenging topic.
You know, I feel very strongly that we use too much medications generally. We`ve developed sort of a philosophy in this country where pills are somehow always going to make us better, when the fact is medication is only to be used when not using it, meaning the disease process that`s under way, the consequences are going to be so severe, that it`s worth the risk of medication.
So people are always surprised when they hear, oh, that medicine hurt somebody. All medicine can hurt you. That`s the fact.
You interact with a doctor, that`s something called iatrogenesis. We can hurt you. We hurt you a lot of the time.
Not intentionally. It`s just we use things that have potential for harm.
On Facebook, Tiffany writes, "I didn`t want my kids to be medicated, but I had no choice. They were constantly at each other, impulsive, aggressive. They were tested and told they had ADHD. I can tell you this -- when they were finally placed on meds, we`ve all seen a total change for the better."
So there you go. I mean, sometimes these medications are transformative and important, and when used properly, the data`s very clear that the outcomes are good. That`s why doctors prescribe it.
Real quick, Gina writes, "Some doctors are quicker than others to recommend drugs, but do you think doctors nowadays are prescribing psychiatric medications more than ever before?"
And, well, I mean, we have more psychiatric medications. And the hope is that they will do more good. And we`re prescribing it more, but it has a dark side.
And the side that I want to shine a little bit of a light on is when you use benzodiazepines and opiates and they trigger addiction. Be careful. That`s when we really have a tsunami of trouble.
I will have more to say about all of this later in the show, but up next, someone wanted a young nursing student dead, but who? Who would that be?
We`re going to talk about that and try to get some answers after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): A bitter dispute, hateful words, and a young woman found dead. The search for Michelle Le comes to a tragic end. Did old friendships become a deadly rivalry?
And later, the secret pain of "Real Housewife," Taylor Armstrong. Years of abuse from her husband who ultimately took his own life. We had no idea how far it went. Beatings, death threats, and cover-ups. Is there a woman you know suffering in silence?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): A heartbreaking end to a four-month search for a young nursing student. Police Monday identified the decomposing remains of Michelle Le. Her disappearance in May set off a massive investigation. Police booked a suspect even before the Saturday discovery of Le`s body. They cited a mountain of evidence in the arrest of 27-year-old Giselle Esteban.
There`s an additional twist to this already disturbing case. These two women were friends once and classmates in high school, but the suspect recently said publicly that she, quote, "hated," unquote, Michelle Le. Esteban, by the way, is presently seven months pregnant as she awaits a plea hearing on murder charges.
What inspired the animosity? Is it even possible that Esteban could commit this crime alone when she was three months pregnant? Was it planned? Was it a spur of the moment crime of passion? Joining me to discuss this, clinical psychologist, Michelle Golland, and Dan Kerman, reporter for our affiliate station, KRON. Dan, I wonder if you can bring us up to date on the most recent developments.
DAN KERMAN, REPORTER, KRON: Well, the recent developments, at least, at this point, are that as you`ve mentioned that they have identified the remains as Michelle Le`s, and at this point, we`re awaiting the next step in this case. A public defender has been assigned to Giselle Esteban, and we`re waiting for the next shoe to drop in this case.
Again, up until they found this body, legal analysts had said that it was going to be a very tough time for the prosecution because they had no murder weapon, they had no cause of death, and most importantly, they had no body. Now, they do have a body, and now, investigators will be looking to see exactly what the cause of death is, and that could make the prosecution`s case a lot stronger.
PINSKY: And my understanding is they don`t have much in the way of remains, so that`s one question, is how hard is that going to be to determine a cause of death. And number two, my question for you, Dan, is this woman, Esteban, capable of hauling somebody around and burying them and doing all this on her own?
KERMAN: Well, you know, and that`s a real good question. And we were talking to a former prosecutor who was a defense attorney, and he said that especially without a body, before this body was found, prosecutors were going to have a tough time showing that Esteban, who is pretty slight and, as you mentioned, very pregnant at this point, that she somehow attacked Michelle Le, stuck her in a car, drove her out of this parking garage, drove her up into the Niles Canyon, Sunol Canyon area, and buried her body and then drove back.
That`s going to be a tough one. But, as you mentioned, there is a lot of evidence. You know, the security camera footage indicated that Esteban was in that parking garage before Michelle Le was supposedly entering it. Physical evidence indicated that Esteban was inside Le`s vehicle. Le`s blood was found in that vehicle.
And, I think the key piece of evidence that prosecutors talk about was that Le`s DNA was found on Esteban`s shoe inside her home. So, these are all pieces of the case the prosecutors will use going forward.
PINSKY: Wow. Now, the suspect, Giselle Esteban, was very public about her negative feelings toward Le. She said in a June interview, quote, "she was very close friend of Le`s before the two had a falling out and hated Le because Le was friends with the father of Esteban`s five-year- old daughter, but Esteban denied having anything to do with Le`s disappearance."
So, Michelle, does that quote tell us anything? So, here we have a woman that`s pregnant. I guess, there`s a motive because of the ex- boyfriend or the baby daddy or some sort of passionate something, right?
MICHELLE GOLLAND, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Right. Absolutely.
PINSKY: Something. Some craziness.
PINSKY: And some pretty damning connecting of the dots, putting her at the murder scene with the murder victim.
GOLLAND: Absolutely, but I think it`s so important and we can see in this is the length of time, Dr. Drew. I mean, if this grudge was held for five years, what I call that, it`s in the sort of negative loop, that if we don`t get revenge and we believe we deserve revenge and we`re holding this grudge, it keeps getting reactivated.
PINSKY: It gets worse.
GOLLAND: And gets worse and gets worse.
PINSKY: But that`s -- the average healthy person is not capable of that, in my opinion, right? I mean, it`s almost like a psychotic stalker gets that way.
PINSKY: This woman, Esteban, would have to develop almost a stalking mentality to have that kind of a grudge that would lead to a murder.
GOLLAND: Right. And again, I think we`re going to hear more of what maybe actually even led into the actual violent act. Were there other interactions? Was there something that happened? You know, she`s still attached to the boyfriend of the -- you know, of the child. So, is that getting reactivated in some way?
But what we can see is that she was unable to stop that loop. And then, activated this, it seems to the point of ultimate revenge and murder.
PINSKY: Well, Dan, Gloria had a restraining order against her. She, apparently, was causing problems with her baby`s father, showing up at his mother`s house, and apparently, kind of acting rather strangely. And again, that would be consistent with what Michelle and I are talking about here, that this wouldn`t be somebody with no antecedent history.
PINSKY: What do we know about this behavior?
KERMAN: Well, what we can tell you, at least, strange about this whole conversation that she hated Michelle Le is that it wasn`t the news media that went after her that we found this out. She called a local television station in San Francisco and offered up this information on her own after she was already a person of interest.
Now, as you know, this is not common behavior that someone who is identified as a person of interest on their own will call a television station and let them know, oh, I hated this person, but I had nothing to do with it. So, that alone is kind of, if nothing else, quirky behavior.
PINSKY: Yes. Right.
GOLLAND: Well, it`s narcissistic behavior. And --
PINSKY: Or worse.
GOLLAND: And sociopathic behavior.
PINSKY: Right. Somebody really --
GOLLAND: But, clearly, if there was an ego wound, right?
GOLLAND: Involved in this, the father of this child, that`s what seems to be and what we know is if there`s a deep narcissistic wound it can be taken --
PINSKY: For severe narcissists, like malignant narcissists.
PINSKY: All right. All right.
GOLLAND: We may be dealing with that.
PINSKY: Police went public immediately with their plans to arrest Esteban. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LT. ROGER KEENER, HAYWARD POLICE DEPT.: A judge from the Alameda County superior court authorized a probable cause arrest warrant in the name of Giselle Esteban for the crime of murder.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Dan, you mentioned a minute ago, that there was a mountain of evidence in that warrant, the phone record, blood on the shoe, DNA, and video. Can you tell us more about how the police tracked cell phone records to put the two women in the same car at the same time?
KERMAN: Well, they also looked at cell phone towers, and that was really interesting. And basically, what they found was, was that the two women`s cell phones traveled in the exact same area after Michelle Le`s disappearance, and it was the tracking of the cell phone based on the cell phone towers and the phones themselves, and the fact that they were traveling together that led police into this general area of the Sunol, Niles Canyon Area.
Now, keep in mind, they searched this area several times and found nothing. In fact, there were eight volunteer searches, and it wasn`t until this most recent one that they discovered the body in this location.
PINSKY: Thanks, Dan. Michelle, we have about 30 seconds or so. Last thoughts on this?
GOLLAND: I heard a few people mentioning the fact that she was three months pregnant. When you`re three months pregnant, you can do a lot.
PINSKY: You`re barely pregnant at three months.
GOLLAND: You`re barely pregnant. And let`s face it, and you know this as a doctor. You know being pregnant is not -- you`re not handicapped. You can do a lot of stuff.
PINSKY: And you know, we had that horrible murder of the two twins right after birth and people were wondering about the pregnancy. You don`t really start to get any sorts of psychiatric kinds of problems early in a pregnancy, not typically.
PINSKY: It just doesn`t pass the sniff test. Although, this woman was very small, and it`s hard to understand her doing all this on her own. I`ve got a sneaking suspicion --
GOLLAND: There may be --
PINSKY: There may be somebody else.
Thank you, Michelle. Thank you, Dan.
Coming up, Taylor Armstrong`s first interview since her husband`s tragic suicide. The "Real Housewife" reveals years of abuse in secret and the horror of discovering Russell Armstrong`s body. Please stay with us.
PINSKY: Tonight, "Real Housewife," Taylor Armstrong`s very private pain. Despite the reality star`s perfect TV facade, Taylor says she`s been living a nightmare. In her first interview since her husband`s suicide, Taylor admits she had been suffering for years at the hands of her husband, Russell. Listen to this from "Entertainment Tonight."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY O`DELL, ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT: The first point you noticed Russell and his temper and where there might be the possibility of domestic violence.
TAYLOR ARMSTRONG, BRAVO`S "REAL HOUSEWIVES OF BEVERLY HILLS": The first time he ever really harmed me physically, I was pregnant with Kennedy. And he grabbed me by the throat and held me up against a wall. Nothing had really happened to set him off. So, I saw his ability to go from just a zero to 60 that quickly.
O`DELL: You have no idea what set him off?
ARMSTRONG: I do know what had set him off, but it`s almost embarrassing to say. I had made pizza for his children before he got home from work, and he came in to the master bedroom and grabbed me by the neck and shoved me up against the wall, and he said, "if you ever make my children a pizza without a vegetable again, I`ll kill you."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: An attorney for Russell`s family denies that he was abusive. Now, we reached out for a comment but have not heard back. So, why did Taylor keep all this secret until the husband`s death?
Straight to my guest, legal editor for radaronline.com, Jen Heger, body language specialist, John Edgar Stephens, and reality star, jewelry designer, and Taylor Armstrong`s friend, Lisa Gastineau. Jen, bring us up to date on the latest.
JEN HEGER, LEGAL EDITOR, RADARONLINE.COM: I think people are finally putting an actual voice to this horrific story. Taylor Armstrong has remained silent until now.
PINSKY: Had you heard rumors about this before she actually stepped up about it?
PINSKY: So, this is something not shocking to people -- and Lisa, have you heard -- did she ever mention this to you?
LISA GASTINEAU, FORMER REALITY STAR: I knew things that I preferred not to know.
PINSKY: Is what she`s saying accurate based on what she led you to believe when he was alive?
GASTINEAU: She was in an abusive situation.
PINSKY: Keep going, Jen.
HEGER: Actually, it`s "The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills," the season finale, I`m told, before Russell`s suicide, the housewives actually confronted Taylor and asked her if she was being physically abused by her husband, and she finally broke down and said that she was.
PINSKY: And you whispered something to me. I don`t know if you can actually break this, but there was -- he had a history, an antecedent history of being abusive.
HEGER: He has a very long history.
PINSKY: Well documented? We can`t confirm this --
HEGER: Well documented. Court records.
PINSKY: Oh, you`ve got the court records. Way to go, Jen.
HEGER: Court records right here. We have to put this in context. Yes, it`s a tragedy that Russell Armstrong killed himself. However, he has had -- March 30th, 1998, he pled no contest to battery involving his then wife Barbara Frederickson. He hit her, he claimed -- or she claims, quote, "in a declaration while she was pregnant also."
Also, his then girlfriend also claimed that he struck her as well. So, there is a pattern of abuse here. This is not out of the norm for what we know about this man.
PINSKY: Oh, the domestic violence issue is so heartbreaking. I mean, Lisa, you`ve been through it yourself?
GASTINEAU: You know, it`s amazing because everyone thinks that their story is so different from everyone else`s. And the one thing you learn is like you tear a page out, and it`s exactly the same.
GASTINEAU: It`s like the same handbook.
PINSKY: The one thing I always caution women that have a history of being in these sorts of less than available relationships man and maybe overtly abusive is that if there is a pattern there where you`re attracted to a certain kind of guy, that`s something you`ve got to kind of look into.
GASTINEAU: Well, there`s an issue. I mean, there`s an issue.
PINSKY: Mark Edgar`s shaking his head. You want to address that?
MARK EDGAR STEPHENS, BODY LANGUAGE SPECIALIST: Of course, because dealing with behavior modification, you`re always going to keep going for the thing that you know. Our subconscious mind does that. It wants to keep us in what we know. And unfortunately, sometimes what we know is not good for us.
PINSKY: Now, Taylor says her husband was very careful to keep the abuse secret. Listen to this from "Entertainment Tonight."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARMSTRONG: Russell was very careful in how he would do things because he didn`t want to leave a lot of physical signs of injury. So, often if we were leaving a place and he was angry, he would grab me by one side of the hair on my head and bang the other side of my head against the car. Like by the back, where you would open the door, and/or --
O`DELL: So, it wouldn`t show in your hair?
ARMSTRONG: Right. Because you get knots and things in here, you know, you don`t really see it so much. And then, sometimes, when he was driving, he would just reach over and slam my head against the inside window if he were angry. You know, just a lot of screaming combined with, you know, a few hits to the face.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Russell`s family is saying none of this happened. Mark Edgar, when we look at that footage of her there, I mean, what do you see?
STEPHENS: The most consistent thing that Taylor is doing throughout is when we are remembering feelings, we actually look down and to the left. So, she`s consistently looking down and to the left and remembering what the feelings were when she was being abused when she was going through all of this. So, in that way, there`s consistency.
What is the most obvious to anybody, not even a body language specialist, is how sad she is. You know, the edges of the mouth are pulled down. The face looks very, very pale. All the color`s gone. She keeps biting her lip. All of this is just showing how much she`s holding on to things emotionally.
PINSKY: I`m actually looking at the footage now. It`s up on the screen alongside of you. And to me, she looks -- alongside of me now -- she looks stricken. That`s the only word I would use. Like stricken by this whole situation.
STEPHENS: Stricken and embarrassed because you keep seeing it when she`s talking about this, she looks down. And of course, there`s embarrassment that goes along with the situation that she was in. She looks -- you know, she keeps looking down. She keeps hiding herself.
PINSKY: So, she participated in the secrecy as is often the case, Lisa.
GASTINEAU: It`s the hardest thing, because you have to apologize for yourself. Instead of saying you`re a bully, this guy is a bad guy, you have to apologize for yourself, because the first thing people say to you is, why are you there? Why did you stay? And it`s part of the syndrome.
PINSKY: That`s part of the syndrome. And the one thing that I find in people that recover from victimizations of all sorts, and Mark, you`ll agree with me on this, is the ability to forgive themselves.
PINSKY: They didn`t cause this. They didn`t ask for it.
STEPHENS: And Dr. Drew, what you`re saying right there, because she may be going through even guilt about what`s happened with her husband because what if she had said something? I mean, a whole array of emotions must be going on here with her.
PINSKY: Now, Taylor says Russell admitted he was afraid he`d snap and possibly kill her. Listen to this from "Inside Edition."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARMSTRONG: He had mentioned he was afraid he might kill me. And I think he admitted it almost in an accidental way that he would get so angry at some time that he would hit me and I would hit something or he would grab me by the neck and something would go wrong.
O`DELL: How many times over the course of your marriage would you say that he physically abused you?
ARMSTRONG: Maybe 20.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And we got that one wrong. That was obviously not "Inside Edition" but "Entertainment Tonight." "E.T." Lisa, I want to ask you, if she came to you with some of this stuff, which I imagine you heard an earful across God knows how long, what did you tell her?
GASTINEAU: You know, one of the things when you`re going through in a situation like that is you feel very alone, and people question you and it`s your judgment and everyone always says I`m there for you, but the bottom line is you`re on your own. You go home, and you`re alone and you`re with this person, and it`s part of the syndrome.
You keep feeding into it. You want it to work out and you want to believe that one -- or that half hour of horror is going to be replaced by the other 23 1/2 hours of goodness. So, I told her that I was always there for her and --
PINSKY: Do you feel -- you looked -- you`re looking ashamed and embarrassed now. Do you feel --
GASTINEAU: I`m -- you know, it`s been my dirty little secret. All of it. My own and hers --
PINSKY: So, you feel guilty --
GASTINEAU: Yes. It`s a shame. It`s a very shameful thing that you participate in the secret of holding back on someone being abusive and living it.
PINSKY: Do you know -- to watch someone like yourself feel ashamed for having been a victim hurts. It`s not your fault. It really just knows the observe (ph). I know it all makes sense to you internally, but it`s really sad to see somebody have to feel responsible for having been victimized. Thank you for sharing today. I really do appreciate it.
GASTINEAU: Thank you.
PINSKY: I think you will help other people step up. That`s the whole point here. Yes?
GASTINEAU: I hope so.
Coming up, Taylor reveals what it was like being there when a family friend discovered her husband had taken his life.
PINSKY: Tonight, Taylor Armstrong speaks out for the first time about her husband`s tragic suicide and reveals that their marriage wasn`t picture perfect as it might have seemed on "The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills," at least how she wished it seemed. Taylor also spoke about the trauma of being at home with her daughter when her husband`s body was discovered. Listen to this from "Entertainment Tonight."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARMSTRONG: I`m sure a lot of people won`t understand this, but I asked the emergency workers if I could go in and hug him before they took him away, but they wouldn`t let me. It just felt like I needed to see him one last time, but they wouldn`t let me.
O`DELL: You think that memory would haunt you forever?
ARMSTRONG: It haunts me, anyway. I mean, every night, when I go to bed, it`s all I think about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I think people do understand that. That`s a very human sort of emotion, to want to make that real and get that closure. I`m back with Radar Online`s Jen Heger, body language expert Mark Edgar Stephens, and Taylor`s friend, Lisa Gastineau. Lisa, have you spoken to Taylor recently, how she`s coping, how she`s doing?
GASTINEAU: You know, I haven`t spoken to her since the funeral. There was a little bit of miscommunication with people thinking that I would voice out about what my feelings were, whether I believed her or not. The last thing that I would do -- I believe her, because one of the things when you go through abuse is you feel like you`re voiceless and your accounts of it become questionable. And you become the one that`s, you know, on trial --
GASTINEAU: In a jury of your own peers.
GASTINEAU: So, I always thought it was really important for people who`ve been going through that to know that I`m there and, you know --
PINSKY: So, you don`t question anything she says?
GASTINEAU: But you know what`s amazing about this is that Russell was -- you take him away from this and if you didn`t know what we already, unfortunately, do know, he would seem like a really, really great guy, you know?
PINSKY: It`s not uncommon.
GASTINEAU: He has wonderful mother, great children.
PINSKY: It`s what are (ph) people capable of. And Jen, last words to you here. I mean, do we know how she`s doing? And there is a question here, and you`re our sleuth, so I`m going to ask this of you. I mean, she did have a record of distorting the truth. And so, there may be people -- I mean, not in relation to this, but in her past. I mean --
PINSKY: Allegedly. Yes.
PINSKY: And so, some people might step up and go oh, no, this is more of her nonsense. What do we say to those people? What evidence do we have that that`s just not true?
HEGER: Well, first of all, you know, the --
PINSKY: The court records that Jen has right here.
HEGER: Radaronline.com first reported. We have a history.
HEGER: So, first and foremost, we have an abuse history there. I think friends that Taylor has as in Lisa, she should count herself very lucky. I`m told that she`s continuing to get mental health help.
HEGER: And I think the real story that should be reported also is that there are two people now that are safe, Kennedy and Taylor. You know, yes, Russell did have a horrible outcome, but you know, Taylor and Kennedy are safe --
PINSKY: They`re safe and they`re getting help.
HEGER: They`re both getting help.
HEGER: Which is what matters.
PINSKY: Thank you, guys.
And now, I`ve got a few words before I go. I`ve said this on the show before that prescription pill problems are really a problem of our time. Now, mostly, I`m talking about the overutilization of addictive drugs like the benzodiazepine medicines and the oral opiate medications. I think that`s no mystery to people.
In fact, the deaths from deaths related to those medications have now exceeded car accidents as a cause of death in this country. I mean, it`s a really serious problem. But, now, we reported tonight a report about millions of preschoolers who are taking psychiatric medication to control behavior. Now, sometimes, medications are necessary.
I`m not saying medicines are bad. I believe, though, that one out of seven preschoolers maybe doesn`t need them. One out of seven. Now, my father was a family practitioner, and he always taught me that medicines are dangerous and bad. So, think about that. They`re not going to solve all of our problems.
Thanks for watching. We`ll see you next time.