Return to Transcripts main page


War on Women; Casey Anthony`s Life in Hiding

Aired September 21, 2011 - 19:00:00   ET



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight two horrific stories in the war on women collide. The brave mother of murder victim Amber Dubois dedicates her life to finding other missing women. Now cops say she`s the one who found the skeletal remains of beautiful missing nursing student Michelle Le. I`ll talk live to this heroic woman and her surprise companion in an ISSUES exclusive.

Plus, exclusive new details about Casey Anthony`s life in hiding. Is she planning to learn a new language and move to another country? We`ll have the inside scoop on what`s next for the most hated woman in America.

And can polygamy work? The stars of controversial reality show "Sister Wives" are fighting back against a backlash in the wake of Warren Jeffs` conviction for his, quote, "spiritual marriages" to underage girls. Should polygamy between adults be protected under the law? I`m taking your calls.

Plus is there video of Michael Jackson that proves he was in a downward spiral before his death? And his doctor on trial due in court. Did the doc show? We`re live at the trial.

ISSUES starts now.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re like every other family, and we just want to spend our holiday with her.

We`re fighters. We love our loved ones, and we`ll fight for them. And until we are given the white flag, we`re not giving up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are always open with the hopes that Michelle was a missing person, that there was no foul play attached. And, again, keeping that hope alive.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She would have never, ever thought anything like this would happen. She never thought one bad thing of anyone.

CARRIE MCGONIGLE, AMBER DUBOIS` MOTHER: I know this could possible be some sort of remains. I`d like to offer my deep condolences to the Le family. I`m unfortunately very aware of the pain and the emotional roller coaster the family is dealing with. I`m eternally grateful for this opportunity to be of service to the Le family.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, an extraordinary story. This is unbelievable. A mother who suffered the worst thing imaginable, the abduction and murder of her own precious daughter, has now become a hero.

She goes out with her dog, which she named after her murdered daughter, Amber, and then together she and her dog crack another case of another missing woman, a case that involves an alleged love triangle gone wrong.

Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell coming to you live from Los Angeles. This is the site of the Michael Jackson death trial. But it`s also in California that all this is going down, the story we`re telling you about now.

Beautiful nursing student, Michelle Le vanished months ago outside the hospital where she was working at a nursing degree. She went to get something from her car. We spoke to her desperate family after she went missing.

Listen to this.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: What would you say to the person that took your sister?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would say please give her back. Because they don`t know how hard it`s been on the family. We barely eat. We barely sleep. All of our day and our thoughts are just to bring her home. And so if the person or persons involved have any compassion in their heart, please, you know, lead us to Michelle.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: That family going through torture.

But now a breakthrough. Cops say skeletal remains found in a canyon only about 30 miles away from where Michelle went missing are, in fact, the those of Michelle Le.

Now, in a twist of fate, a brave, inspiring mother, Carrie McGonigle, the mother of a murder victim, she was the one who found the remains. Unbelievable.


MCGONIGLE: Of course this has been a very emotional experience for all of us. It hit me harder than I expected. I have a tremendous amount of sadness not only reliving my own tragedy but also for the Le family. This experience has made me come to terms with my own fears, the fear that I would not be capable of handling an experience like this. I know now that God, my daughter, Amber, and Michelle needed me.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Carrie McGonigle`s daughter, Amber Dubois, went missing just a hundred yards away from her school. We covered the story repeatedly here on ISSUES. Her devastated family went more than a year without any answers, and then they finally learned the worst.

Amber`s mom has now dedicated her life to searching for missing women and children. Straight out to my very, very special exclusive guest, one of my heroes, Carrie McGonigle.

Carrie, you are there with your dog, Amber, named after your daughter, who was abducted and murdered. Tell us how you and your dog did what detectives could not do, what the police could not do. You found the body of Michelle Le and cracked this case. How did you do it?

MCGONIGLE: I can`t take credit for that. It was -- it was a team effort. We all worked -- we did -- we were working with law enforcement and all the other -- all the other people. They had a specific area that we were going to search. And Amber, I have to give all the credit to Amber. She -- she took off from -- from me and wouldn`t come back, and when I finally went up to her, she was standing at the scene.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Describe that. You`re there with your dog. You`re part of a volunteer group team, Amber Rescue, a rescue group named after your murdered daughter. And you`re with your dog, who is also named after your murdered daughter, and you`re walking through the woods in this general area where cops say Michelle Le, according to the cell phone pings, may have been. What happened? Describe it in detail.

MCGONIGLE: I harnessed -- I put her harness on, and she took off. She took off running. And I called after her, and she -- she didn`t come back. So I started down the trail, and she turned around. She came back towards me and jumped up on me. And I went to grab her, and she took off again. And I figured she was going after another search party that had gone that way, because she isn`t trained for cadaver work.

And when we -- when I got around the corner, I saw her standing there. And I went up, and I put her leash on. And I noticed something that could be remains. And I left the scene and went and told the officer that was with us.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What was your reaction when you saw those remains, your first reaction?

MCGONIGLE: You know what? I just -- I didn`t know that they were animal, human. And I actually -- it didn`t hit me for a good hour, hour and a half. Then I broke down.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You broke down ultimately, of course. Look...


VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... you experienced the worst thing a mother could ever experience: losing your own daughter to an abduction and murder. And we`re going to get to that in a second. But actually, that was what gave you the strength to do this -- this incredible thing and do what police were unable to do. I want to listen to you talking about how you were inspired by your own daughter`s murder to do this. Let`s listen.


MCGONIGLE: I actually thought I would break completely down and I wouldn`t be able to search any more. And the fact that I`m OK, that I`ve conquered that fear of the unknown, is a great accomplishment for me. And I know that I have -- I have a purpose now to serve the community and help other families.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Robin Sax, you`re an attorney who works with Carrie McGonigle. Why didn`t police do what Carrie did? Carrie is not a detective. She`s a mother. She has a dog that`s not a cadaver dog. And she`s part of the search team with really no training, no real experience.

And she goes out and finds a woman who`s been missing, the remains of a woman who`s been missing for months and months and months, while her family, the missing woman`s family, is waiting in agony. Why didn`t cops do this?

ROBIN SAX, ATTORNEY: Well, you know, you would think the cops would be the one to find body. But here, actually, I give credit to the police, because the police worked with Carrie, worked with her team, didn`t pooh- pooh away citizens who cared and wanted to search. So this was a cooperative effort. The police were involved, and they readily accepted the help of citizens. And that is very rare in and of themselves. They`re not coming out, taking the credit. They`re letting Carrie take the credit, because she was a hero and so was Amber.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, now Michelle`s high-school friend, the dead woman`s high-school friend, Giselle Esteban, is now charged with her murder. Listen to this.


LT. ROGER KEENER, HAYWARD POLICE: A judge from the Alameda County Superior Court authorized a probable cause arrest warrant in the name of Giselle Esteban for the crime of murder.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Cops say Giselle -- here she is -- a very good friend of the dead woman. Their cell phone, Michelle and the murder victim`s, Michelle and Giselle`s cell phones were going on the same path at the same time after Michelle went missing. And that was one of the things that led investigators to this general area where the body was ultimately found. They also found blood on Giselle`s shoe.

I want to go to Henry Reid, reporter with "The San Francisco Chronicle." Apparently, this is a love triangle. Can you explain that, sir?

HENRY REID, REPORTER, "SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE": That`s right, Jane. Giselle Esteban has told a television reporter that she openly hated Michelle for ruining her relationship with an ex-boyfriend. Now, the exact motive is not clear, but if, in fact, it is a love triangle, this is a very unusual case because, Jane, our defendant is pregnant. So the question remains: could a pregnant woman handle this herself, kill Michelle Le and dispose of the bodies by herself? Police say that is what happened in this case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait a second. You`re saying Giselle Esteban is how many months pregnant now?

REID: She`s probably about six or seven months.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: She was pregnant at the time of the murder? She`s still pregnant?

REID: She was pregnant at the time of the murder. She`s still pregnant, and she is in jail, about six or seven months pregnant, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, the boyfriend of the suspect filed a restraining order against her three days before Michelle was murdered, and he had gone from the suspect to the murder victim, and so that is the love triangle there.

Dr. Judy Kuriansky, it`s very odd to hear of a woman murdering another woman. Usually, they have help from a guy. But this is extraordinary. A pregnant woman?

JUDY KURIANSKY, PSYCHOLOGIST: Jane, hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. And how many years have I heard about girls who go after other girls who have supposedly stolen their man, their boyfriend, and they become enraged about it, and all that rage is directed towards the girl? That girlfriend issue goes out the window. It is very sad and really a warning to all young girls to respect other girls.

And this young woman was so -- the supposed perpetrator was very disturbed. Now, when that restraining order was posted against her, the boyfriend said she was suicidal and threatening suicide. This shows also how much in cases suicide threats and homicide go together, when that rage is so strong against another woman for supposedly stealing your boyfriend, who`s the father of your child.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Excellent analysis.

All right. More on this extraordinary story. In a bit we`re going to talk more to our hero, Carrie McGonigle, who found Michelle Le`s body, essentially solving this case. We`re going to talk about her -- her daughter`s murder and justice for her daughter, as well.


MCGONIGLE: I know now that God, my daughter and Amber and Michelle needed me. This is my job. This is what I`m supposed to do with my life.




CHRISTINE DINH, COUSIN OF MICHELLE LE: As far as I know, I know that she had a lot of friends. I don`t believe that she was dating anyone at the time. And, you know, it`s -- it`s sad because she is such a sweet, beautiful person that she was wrapped up in this almost gossip circles.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is such an extraordinary story. A young woman, Michelle Le, murdered, allegedly by her former really good friend, and it`s all over a boyfriend. This is the beautiful woman who was murdered. And the woman who was accused now of killing her was pregnant, and apparently, it`s believed -- I don`t know, I have no independent confirmation -- but it may very well have been that she was pregnant with the guy who ended up going out. That`s the suspect. Ended up going out with Michelle Le.

And so this woman is now accused of killing Michelle Le, essentially because she was dumped by this guy, who started going out with Michelle.

Unbelievable story, but what makes it more extraordinary is that Carrie McGonigle, who I will show you right now, who`s our exclusive guest here on ISSUES, whose own daughter was murdered in Southern California, went out with her dog -- who`s right there. She`s going to -- there`s the dog. In her attempt to do something to honor her daughter and her daughter`s memory, goes out with her dog, who`s not a cadaver dog and finds the remains. Something that the police have been unable to do, despite months of searching.

Carrie McGonigle, I want to ask you. Did you do this to honor your daughter? And what would you say about your daughter`s memory, given that you have -- and I know you were with the whole team -- but given that you`ve done something to give closure to another family. You`ve healed someone else`s pain. How does it affect your pain?

MCGONIGLE: It`s part of the healing process. It gives me great pleasure to be able to help another family, and to bring some kind of closure to this. And I -- and I started the Team Amber Rescue in Amber`s honor.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tell me about your thoughts and your feelings about Amber. What was the most emotional part of this?

MCGONIGLE: I think when I realized that it possibly could be her, her remains. It hit me hard. I went to church the next day to -- to get my thoughts together and do some healing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We all remember the terrible story of your daughter`s disappearance and murder.

Another beautiful young woman, Chelsea King, disappeared while jogging in the same area. And then that sparked a search for Amber. It turned out that the same man, the same man, John Gardner, murdered both your daughter and Chelsea King.

This is John Gardner, a man who is now locked up for three life sentences, a man described as a monster, a predator. Of course a parolee, Robin Sax, who had been let out after attacking a young girl and, oh, well, she managed to get away before he could rape her, so they only gave him five years. Then he got out. He violated parole, and they still took off his GPS device. And then he went out and killed two girls.

SAX: It was unbelievably enraging. And I can`t believe how subdued I`m seeing Carrie right now. Everyone remembers Carrie during John Gardner`s case as being the mother who had to confront John Gardner. She was the one who relentlessly, despite what I said as her lawyer, despite what the cops said, was going to go and get the answers to find out what happened in the last minutes of life.

And it was that drive that we see here in this case, that dedication to victims that made it so that Michelle Le`s remains could be found. And the most important thing -- and I know this from talking to Carrie last night -- was that she wanted to be able to get closure for Michelle Le`s family, and she did that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Carrie, tell us -- the feisty Carrie, bring her out right now and tell us. Is this a message to John Gardner and the John Gardners of the world?

MCGONIGLE: You know, that -- that did cross my mind. I mean, it crossed my mind that there would be -- there would be no plea bargain, because the law enforcement had their -- had their remains. And it did give me pleasure in that way.

And someone else asked me that, too, a friend of mine. Said kind of what you went through with Gardner and his plea bargain, a little bit.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. You stuck it back to the bad guys or bad girls.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: You went and became a crime fighter. This is something out of -- Judy Kuriansky, this is something out of almost comic book heroes, somebody who is a victim and turns into a crusader and becomes a hero.

KURIANSKY: I totally love it. And you know who else is a hero? That adorable dog who`s -- was sitting right there a moment ago when she got perched up. I mean, when Carrie says, the hero mom, that this is a team. That was a team.

In psychology we call this the human/animal companion bond. And that bond, many pet lovers know what that`s like. It brings people together. That`s what makes the dog have a sixth sense to find a loved one.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. All right. Thank you, fantastic panel.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: One thing we know about Michael Jackson, there is going to be tremendous drama in this case.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This whole case is going to come down jury selection.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are going to be people who want to vindicate Michael.

MICHAEL JACKSON, KING OF POP: This is it. I mean, this is really it. This is the final -- this is the final curtain call.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Here we are. Right outside the criminal court building made famous by the O.J. Simpson trial and now the Michael Jackson death trial gearing up. Dr. Conrad Murray back in that courtroom. Attorneys for both sides in this Michael Jackson death trial, weeding through jurors, potential ones.

In the judge`s chambers today, they told the judge they agreed on a fair number of dismissals, but then things got intense for the doc. What happened?

Well, guess what? We`re going to go to the woman who was there and at the center of it. Joining me tonight exclusively, Erin Jacobs. And she is co-founder of Justice for M.J. This woman, you are a travel agent. And you come driving, what, an hour, hour and a half every day to be here at this trial.

First of all, tell me what happened in court today.

ERIN JACOBS, CO-FOUNDER, JUSTICE FOR M.J.: Well, do you want the whole...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Just tell me the story.

JACOBS: OK. We were in court, and Conrad Murray was staring at the fans. And we were staring back, and it got rather heated between the two parties. And we were basically asked to leave.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, how did it get -- how did a stare get heated?

JACOBS: Well, Conrad Murray and I have somewhat of a history. He knows that we work every day in the community to make sure that the fans know and that the public knows that we feel he committed murder, second- degree murder, not involuntary manslaughter. And we want to see justice for Michael Jackson. And therefore, he`s seen us from the very beginning, from the airport courthouse back in February 8th of 2010, I believe.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you are essentially an albatross around his neck, and he resents you being there every day.

JACOBS: Absolutely.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And so he is -- you`re saying he stared at you and gave you what kind of a look?

JACOBS: Well, it was...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me go back to you, to the tight shot of you. Over here. Give us an example of what Dr. Conrad...

JACOBS: It`s just a very intense look, like, you know, "I know who you are and you need to leave me alone" type of look.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What did you look? What did you do back? Give me a -- give me a...

JACOBS: It was reciprocated.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Just give the look you gave him.

JACOBS: I can`t do it because I don`t feel that intensity for you or for the show that I feel...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Can you try?

JACOBS: It was more -- it was more or less just a, you know, "you killed Michael and we can`t wait for your -- for your day."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. And then, based on the fact that you were just thinking that, you got thrown out?

JACOBS: More or less, yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Now, why? You`re a travel agent. Why are you making this your job, essentially?

JACOBS: I`ve been a fan of Michael since I was about 12 years old. And you guys talk a lot about the fans and the relationship that we have with Michael. And it`s extraordinary. You can`t really explain it. But we are a grieving family member, a grieving extended family member that people don`t talk to but they talk about. And we are his voice now.

Conrad Murray on June 25, 2009, killed Michael Jackson, and now we`re speaking for him. We are protecting his legacy.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Allegedly -- allegedly there, because he hasn`t been convicted.

JACOBS: Allegedly.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But I think your intensity is fascinating. Will you come back? Because we`re going to be covering this trial from one end to the other, and I know that you`re going to be kind of leading the fans that are out there.

Again, Erin Jacobs, co-founder of Justice for M. J. And now Nancy Grace up next.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Where the heck is she? Are her lawyers playing a very dangerous game with her client`s safety?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What she did was a disgrace. Not just to Caylee but all innocent children in the world.

JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, PRESIDED OVER CASEY ANTHONY CASE: Casey Anthony obtained a tattoo with the inscription "Bella Vita"; this Italian phrase translates to beautiful life.

CROWD: Justice for Caylee. Justice for Caylee. Justice for Caylee. Justice for Caylee.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is the most hated person in the United States of America planning to flee to another country? Just one of the shocking secrets revealed in a brand new "People" magazine cover story on Casey Anthony -- none other. Hatred for Casey Anthony remains at a fever pitch so much so that Casey cannot step out in public in the US of A ever it seems. So what will Casey do to stay alive?

A source says she plans to learn a new language because quote, She realizes she may have to live in another country. And we know she won`t be going home to mom and dad. George Anthony shot that down on Dr. Phil. Remember this?


DR. PHIL MCGRAW, HOST, "DR. PHIL": Would she be welcome in your home?


MCGRAW: You would not?


MCGRAW: Co-exist.

GEORGE ANTHONY: No, I couldn`t. I couldn`t do that.

MCGRAW: And you would not expect him to?



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Where do you think Casey`s going to go? Give me a call, 1-877-JVM-SAYS. Now "People" magazine broke the story. You can read it when the issue comes out this Friday.

I want to go straight to Tasha Robertson, senior editor for "People". Tasha, thank you so much for joining us. Tell us what are the biggest bombshells in your cover story on Casey Anthony or your big story on her?

TASHA ROBERTSON, SENIOR EDITOR, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE: Well, Casey has to find her own way right now. I mean she`s all alone. She`s isolated. She`s afraid to basically walk out the door. She has very few people around her, very few friends. She`s totally -- her family, of course, that`s not even an issue right now.

She said her -- well, our sources tell "People" magazine that the relationship, of course with the dad is done. And she`s conflicted about her mom. She`s angry that her mother was on television. She thinks her mother should not be in public view and should just be a mom and basically she also, she`s seeing a psychiatrist. Tomorrow she will spend a full day with, you know, with a psychiatrist just going over a lot of the things that have happened and just trying to put these pieces together.

So, it`s been -- it`s really fascinating to see how, how she`s going to make it right now. It`s going to be a tough road. Right now it`s going to be a very tough road for her.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I think what you said, fascinating nuggets but this is the one that really pops out at me. This is all coming after Cindy went on national television and really went out on a limb to make excuses and justified, rationalize Casey`s really unrationalizable (ph) behavior for lack of a better word. Cindy, that is, justified the molestation accusations against George and Lee. Listen to this jaw-dropper from "Dr. Phil".


CINDY ANTHONY: Jose`s original intent was to go after both Lee and George during the trial. And I believe with all my heart that Casey put a stop to him going after her brother. I think that watching Casey during the sum of what Jose was stating about her father, you could either take it that she was crying because it actually happened to her or you could take it that she was crying because she had to do this to her dad.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, she`s crying in court because she had to accuse her father of molestation to get off? Cindy, now you think going to this length to basically justify and rationalize your daughter`s behavior would win some points, right, with your daughter? No.

Here`s what the source tells "People" magazine. What hurts her, meaning Casey now, is how Cindy continues to seek the spotlight. She, Casey, wants Cindy to be her mother not a public person.

This blows my mind. Judy, clinical psychologist, I cannot believe how, how unappreciative Casey is that her mom is out there basically making up stories for her, essentially.

DR. JUDY KURIANSKY, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, this is such a dysfunctional family that it is really impossible to say what Casey is feeling that`s real. We just heard that she`s seeing a psychiatrist. But on top of all the other diagnoses that we`ve heard about the narcissism and this psychopathological character, there`s another Jane and this is relevant to how she reacts to her mother that you just asked me and that is histrionics. The crying jags that you just showed on the air have to do with this over emotional display. But it`s actually hollow.

The way "People" magazine is reporting that she`s looking into her lies or she has her regrets. A lot of that goes along with a histrionic personality where there`s just a drama. That`s the mother`s drama and the daughter`s drama and they are enmeshed in their drama together.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that`s co-dependency, basically.

KURIANSKY: Yes, indeed. Yes, exactly.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I like the way you described the hollow feeling because I think we have to learn from this. And it`s true. Sometimes when people are overemotional, it`s almost like they are phony emotional.

KURIANSKY: Right. It`s like they are overacting. They`re acting in their own soap opera, a movie in their own mind and there`s a lack of genuineness to the emotion and that`s exactly the kind of hollow -- I like that word -- emotion that we often get from Cindy and Casey for that matter.

Casey was in solitary confinement, you know, for nearly three years behind bars. Well, it got to her, obviously. I mean she would break down in tears in her jailhouse interviews talking to her parents. See if you think this is hollow or not.


CASEY ANTHONY, ACQUITTED FOR MURDER OF DAUGHTER: I`m not in control over any of this because I don`t know what the hell is going on. I don`t know what`s going on. My entire life has been taken from me. Everything has been taken from me.

I need to be --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, I think that`s fascinating because we just heard Dr. Judy describe Cindy`s emotions as hollow and Casey`s and there you saw a perfect example of it Robin Sax, where it`s kind of like an overacting for a soap opera.

ROBIN SAX, ATTORNEY: Well, she`s certainly acting because she`s also acting with the goal of being able to communicate with her daughter. Her daughter Casey won`t talk to her so no better way than to communicate in the way that they have been communicating all along through television cameras hoping that Casey will make contact with her, is what I`m guessing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But it boomeranged. It boomeranged because Casey is irritated at her mother. I think it`s jealousy.

Honestly Tasha Robertson, senior editor "People" magazine, I think that when Casey says she wants her mom to stop seeking the spotlight and be a mom, I think Casey is jealous that it`s Cindy who is getting the TV time now and not her.

ROBERTSON: Well, you know, who knows what`s really in Casey`s head. She`s going to have to really deal with a lot of things. She`s going to have to deal with this relationship or non-relationship her mother. She`s going to have to deal with the friends who no longer want to be around her.

She`s going to have to figure out what -- does she stay in America? Does she move on? How does she live? How does she survive? And she`s also very afraid right now. So there`s a lot of things that she`s dealing with.

One of the sources told us that Casey is a realist, regardless of all the other things you hear about her. She`s a realist. She knows she`s going to have to look at all of these things. And that she might not be able to live in America again and she`s going to have to start a whole new life.

VELEZ-MITCHELL:L All right. Here`s what according to your article, Cindy -- Casey rather craved behind bars: good food, manicures, hair cuts. We also learned from this "People" magazine article that she was very aware of her infamy, quote, "She had a love/hate relationship with her own fame."

What do you make of that, Dr. Judy? She kind of loved her infamy but she hated it as well.

KURIANSKY: Well, this is part actually Jane, of what a narcissistic person goes through. They go through the swings of what we call hero and zero. So that is the love and the hate. One minute you`re on top of the world and everything is grand and the best things are happening and then everything has totally fallen apart and it`s a zero. So that`s part of the love and the hate.

You know, she is facing the worst future imaginable. It doesn`t matter, by the way, this is where the hate comes in for her situation. Jane, she could go anywhere in the world. She could learn Spanish or Chinese. Everybody in the world has known what`s going on in this case. There`s nowhere to run and nowhere to hide.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: If Casey leaves the United States, where is Casey going to end up? There`s speculation she could end up in France where Casey`s trial was overshadowed by the Dominique Strauss-Kahn case. She could -- let`s see -- she could be learning Spanish and head to Mexico. There were reports of that. At least that`s close to home.

And here`s another strong possibility, she might want to go Italy because remember she got a tattoo. It said "Bella Vita", which is Italian for "beautiful life". Tasha Robertson any tip on where she`s going to go?

ROBERTSON: We have no idea. We`ll definitely keep looking. I mean this is a story that our readers are very interested in. They are very interested in what, you know, justice for Caylee, they still want that. But more importantly --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tasha I got to jump in right now.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: You did a great job -- excellent story. Thank you for coming on.

ROBERTSON: Thank you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Robin Sax, five seconds, she can`t go anywhere. She`s on probation. She can`t leave the country.

SAX: She can`t leave the country yet unless she goes to court and tells us where she is going so the probation officers know and can keep her -- an eye on her.


Up next, this -- you`ve got to see this. It`s wild. "Sister Wives" controversy; yes, you know, that TV show about polygamy. Now they are trying to distance themselves from the Warren Jeffs scandal. And they are also promoting their new season. We`re taking your calls on this, 1-877- 586-7297.



KODY BROWN, "SISTER WIVES": My name is Kody Brown. You`ve got to meet my family. I`m a polygamist. But we`re not the polygamist you think you know.

Over here. I show over and over that I got the ability to love these children.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you have more to give?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think he needs all the children because as we parent all the children little pieces of our parenting go into their mental and their emotional and they change.

BROWN: The fear of being prosecuted is less daunting than the fear of continuing a society in secrecy.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: A confessed polygamist with four wives and 16 children and counting says the TLC show "Sister Wives" has allowed his family to live out in open. I`m so happy for you.

But here`s what I want to know. On the heels of the Warren Jeffs trial where polygamy was denounced and Jeffs was convicted of raping two children I got to wonder what makes plural marriage so socially acceptable on the TLC show "Sister Wives".

Watch this.


BROWN: Ok. Everybody who thinks it`s a boy go over here.

I show over and over that I`ve got the ability to love these children.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. One of the wives is about to give birth to number 17 -- child number 17. The family now lives in Las Vegas after fleeing Utah to avoid possible persecution. Kody Brown and three of his wives appeared on ABC`s "Good Morning America". Watch this.


BROWN: It`s normal to us. I mean we deal with every day kind of whoa that happened, you know, there`s just things that surprise us in our lives.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- not normal to everybody else, right?

BROWN: We totally get that it`s not normal to everybody else.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, it`s not normal. Where`s the outrage we heard during the Warren Jeffs trial when we found out he had 60 wives and dozens of children. I realize none of Kody Brown`s wives are underage. But is that really the point?

Polygamy -- isn`t polygamy, polygamy no matter what the age? What do you think? Give me a call, 1-877-JVM-SAYS.

Now, I want to go straight out to Laurie Allen, producer of "Banking on Heaven", an investigation film -- fabulous film that exposed the secret world of polygamist cults. Laurie, they are trying to distance themselves from Warren Jeffs at the same time as they promote their new season. Why are people watching this? Why are they embracing "Sister Wives"?

LAURIE ALLEN, PRODUCER, "BANKING ON HEAVEN": Well, they`re watching it Jane because they`re not being told the truth. I mean this is a reality show that is really about as real as my little finger. I mean these people are scamming every which way. They have been in all kinds of trouble. They`ve all filed bankruptcy. They rotate the wives around. One files one year; a couple of years later, another one. They shift the dead around. They are living off of food stamps. They have been in all kind of financial trouble. This is what my sources tell me.

And the show come along which as far as I know is why they left Utah because, you know, it`s ok; it`s like "don`t ask, don`t tell" in Utah. It`s ok to practice polygamy but don`t talk about it, don`t go on TV because then the law enforcement and attorney general`s office has to do something about it. So it puts them in an awkward position which is why they moved to Vegas. And now they want to go back.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Basically -- on the show they are basically underwriting the whole concept of polygamy and essentially encouraging it. Now, "Sister Wives", the family -- they blew up on GMA because they were asked, somebody had the audacity to refer to their compound in Utah. Watch this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You all have broken up a bit from your move to Las Vegas. No longer own the same compound, four separate houses.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We live in a house.


BROWN: -- negative connotation, it sounds Branch Davidian.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, they`re upset about it being called a compound.

Sherie Jeffs, you`re the ex-wife of Ward Jeffs (ph) -- former sister- in-law of Warren Jeffs, do they have -- first of all we tried to contact Kody Brown`s attorney, couldn`t reach him. He`s invited on or any of them. They are all invited on any time to tell their side of the story.

But there was a claim by Laurie Allen that essentially they are living off this show and otherwise they would really have no way of supporting themselves when they have now 16 kids and counting. What say you?

SHERIE JEFFS, FORMER SISTER-IN-LAW OF WARREN JEFFS: Well, to be honest with you I haven`t watched that show, and I don`t know what they are doing. But I feel like it`s a disservice to so many of the polygamist families in the state of Utah to paint them with that brush that they are all like that family because so many of them aren`t.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, you`re defending the polygamy concept?

JEFFS: Well, yes, because you have freedom to live your religion the way you`re supposed to in this country, of course. I mean as long as you`re not --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me ask you a question. I can understand why the guy wants four wives or 16 wives or 60 wives, I get that. Why do the women get involved? What`s in it for the women?

JEFFS: Well, if you believe that it`s a tenet of your faith, of your religion, of the Mormon religion that it`s a celestial principle, then you live it. But not everyone lives it perfectly or does a really good job with it. Some families do. I would have to say that most families do. Do well by it. And you have to make a distinction between those that are --



WARREN JEFFS, POLYGAMIST LEADER: The woman if she is not careful will be overbearing and always ask permission for what she wants. And ladies, build up your husbands by being submissive.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, in the wake of his conviction on two counts of child rape, a lot of people are taking a second look at the whole issue of polygamy and so it raises the question, are shows like "Sister Wives" which some say glorifies polygamy, really cute (ph) or are they really dangerous.

So I want to go to Jim Moret, my journalist colleague extraordinaire - -


VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`ve actually talked to all the women, the four wives and this guy Kody --

MORET: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- from "Sister Wives", why do the women do it? I don`t get that.

MORET: Well, we heard one of your guests talk about the religious aspect. And I suspect that`s a great part of it. But I was taking notes because I listen to everything you say. You said the word cult, rape, underage -- none of that applies to this family. So in this sense I would say this family is not like the Jeffs compound at all.

This is an unusual family. When you watch them you can say I don`t understand how they are living this way. I don`t understand how four women can share one man. But they are not odd balls. They are very nice, gracious people --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, are the women masochists?

MORET: No. Look, we`re watching the show, my wife says, "You know, that`s not a bad idea. Maybe I should share you I don`t have to listen to you complain all the time."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Just don`t share with me.

MORET: But -- but they are not trying to enlist people any more than "Jersey Shore" is trying to change people -- maybe I shouldn`t use that as an example.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But here`s my point. And I just want to go quickly to the "Big Love" clip from HBO because this is a show that everybody loves to hit. It may be fantastic but again, why are we hooked on this idea? Check this out.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am trying to make it better for all of us. The life we`ve chosen leads to eternity but yes there are consequences.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re not in eternity, Bill. We`re in Sandy, Utah, and I don`t think I can live this life in Sandy, Utah.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Laurie Allen, women all over the United States are watching this show and grooving on it. Why are women so interested in glorifying cultures that denigrate them and treat them as chattel?

ALLEN: I don`t know. Flavor of the day -- I`m not sure Jane why people give this show any viewing time. It`s disgraceful. It`s -- I guess it`s because it`s an oddity. I mean they are just weird people that are living on the fringes of society and getting all this publicity. When, in fact, the truth is not being told and there`s a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes that we`re not talking about.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Sherie Jeffs you used to practice polygamy. But correct me if I`m wrong, it almost sounded like you were defending the polygamy, the actual polygamy, and saying that oh, "Sister Wives" the TLC show kind of makes polygamy look bad.

Isn`t it the other way around? I mean "Sister Wives" is sort of a sanitized version of polygamy. The real polygamy is a lot more sordid?

JEFFS: Not really. And I`m not really defending it. I just want to you know that what you`re seeing on TV is not what really happens within those families.

Now with the case of Warren Jeffs, of course, that went off in left field and created havoc for anyone that is really truly trying to live the religion and, you know, have more than one wife and create a loving family unit. And you have to understand that the women do it because they believe it`s a tenet of their faith and the men do it also because it`s a tenet of their faith.

And you have to ask yourself how difficult that would be to keep that many children and that many women clothed and fed and emotionally cared for.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Because the government is underwriting the entire thing with welfare.