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PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT
Troy Davis Execution Delayed; Hikers Freed from Iranian Prison; Palestinian Leaders Pushes for U.N. Recognition; Interview With Governor Daniels; Interview With Presidents Kagame, Martelly
Aired September 21, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: Tonight breaking news.
REVEREND RAPHAEL WARNOCK, PASTOR TO TROY DAVIS AND HIS FAMILY: To execute a man with this much doubt does not bode well for any of us.
MORGAN: I'll talk to convicted cop killer Troy Davis' pastor who prayed with him today on death row.
And with the eyes of the world on the U.N. tonight, are Israel and the Palestinians getting closer to a deal?
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Peace cannot be imposed on the parties. It's going to have to be negotiated.
MORGAN: I'll ask top diplomats from each side.
Plus the White House budget cuts that President Bush called the blade, Governor Mitch Daniels, his prescription of cutting the debt. Could it land him on the GOP ticket?
And how two presidents and a top fashion designer are working to rebuild a devastated nation?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What I'm saying is, to employee the people. Empower the people of their country.
MORGAN: This is PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT.
Good evening. A last-minute appeal to the Supreme Court has delayed the execution of Troy Davis which was scheduled to take place at 7:00 p.m. Eastern. Davis was convicted of killing an off-duty police officer in Savannah in 1989. And this case drew international attention with Pope Benedict, Desmond Tutu and Jimmy Carter among those working to stop the execution.
Also have breaking news tonight on the other big story. The release of two American hikers from Iran's notorious Evin prison. I'll to talk to the Swiss ambassador who picked up Josh Fattal and Shane Bauer at the prison and escorted them to the airport and amid joyous scenes freedom early this evening.
But we begin with the extraordinary Troy Davis take. I want to go straight to CNN's David Mattingly. He's outside the prison in Jackson, Georgia.
David, there seems to be increased activity in the last hour. Apparently family members arriving, a lot of state police arriving. What is your feeling about what may be going on?
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, there's a tremendous show of force here. And it continues to grow as the minutes go by. I want you -- let you take a look at this. This is a rare sight in Georgia to see this many officers in this much riot gear standing guard.
They are standing at the gates of the facility where the execution is supposed to take place. They have been staring intently across a four-lane highway. I'm going to show you this now. Want to step in here. Across the highway to give you a lay of the land. There are hundreds of supporters for Troy Davis standing over there.
They've been over there for hours. They've been holding signs. They've been chanting. But I have to emphasize, Piers, they've been orderly and peaceful. And yet hour after hour there are more and more officers gathering here. Just a few moments ago there were about 20 patrol cars with the Georgia State Patrol coming in here with their sirens on and with their lights flashing.
Those officers have now joined the ranks there. Easily more than 100 uniformed and armed officers. And for a short time ago, we saw several of them passing out those plastic handcuffs that they would use in riot situations. But again, at this point there's no indication that this crowd is out of control.
Over the past week I've watched the demonstrations for Troy Davis continue here in the state of Georgia. They've always been orderly and peaceful. And now at this hour as we continue to wait for word from the Supreme Court, the crowd has been strangely quiet for the past few minutes. They're starting to pick up just a little bit, but everyone wondering what is about to happen next -- Piers.
MORGAN: David, stay with us. I want to bring in CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin to explain what's happening with the Supreme Court tonight.
A pretty complex situation here, Jeffrey. Just explain in simple terms what you think is happening on the legal side of this process.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, this has been an extraordinary legal drama. A murder in 1989, a trial in 1991, and 20 years of litigation that has continued all day today.
At about 5:00 this afternoon Eastern Time, the Georgia Supreme Court denied a stay of execution to Troy Davis. At that point his lawyers instantly hit send on an application to the United States Supreme Court for -- of a stay of execution.
There are nine justices. Five justices are necessary to grant a stay. For more than three hours now we have heard nothing from the United States Supreme Court. Georgia would be within its rights at this very moment to execute Troy Davis. The order said they could execute him as of 7:00.
But Georgia is saying we are not going to do this until we hear one way or the other from the United States Supreme Court. And this is an unusually long delay from the United States Supreme Court to fail to act on a stay of execution. So all we can do is wait.
MORGAN: Jeffrey, I mean, there are two arguments here obviously. One is about whether he's guilty. He was obviously convicted but there are elements of doubt being raised by various parties about that guilt. Secondly, about the whole nature of the death penalty.
I heard you earlier today on CNN saying that, you know, murder cases are dropping in America and so are executions, which I thought was an interesting overview of where we are with that part of it. But tell me this from a legal point of view, when you studied everything to do with this case, what's your feeling about the original conviction of Troy Davis?
TOOBIN: It's a problematic case. One of the things we've learned in the criminal justice system over the past 20 years is how unreliable some of the things we thought were very reliable. This is a case based almost entirely on eyewitness testimony. Eyewitness testimony is problematic.
This case also had in it what's known as a jailhouse snitch. A fellow prisoner who said that Troy Davis confessed. Even at the trial that testimony was widely regarded as worthless. Jailhouse snitches are notoriously awful and unreliable witnesses. But this case is really about eyewitness identification. And that's why it's been such a problem for so long.
MORGAN: Jeffrey, thank you.
Now I want to bring in Reverend Raphael Warnock who's Troy Davis's pastor. He spent the day praying with him and counseling his family.
Reverend Warnock, thank you very much in joining me. Obviously a very, very difficult time both for Troy and his family. What is the latest that's going on?
WARNOCK: Indeed it is a very difficult time. This has been an incredible night. I was standing with the family at about 7:00 p.m. by that time, of course, naturally we were expecting the worst.
And suddenly we began to hear cheers from the crowd across the way. And the word came that the execution had been delayed. Certainly we're glad that Troy Davis is still alive, but we are still witnessing, in my estimation, a civil rights violation and a human rights violation in the worst way unfold before our very eyes.
This is Troy Davis's fourth execution date. I'm glad that he's alive, but that in and of itself is cruel and unusual punishment. America can do much better than this.
MORGAN: I mean obviously the family of the man who was killed that day believe adamantly in Troy Davis's guilt.
Do you believe aside from the fact that you're a pastor to Troy Davis, you're a personal friend of his -- I mean, can you understand how the family feel? They're going through a very different emotion this evening.
WARNOCK: I am a pastor and pastor to the family. I've gotten to know them in the context actually of this case.
I'm from Savannah, Georgia. I know something about the culture of that city which even to this day in some ways is still very much racially divided. As a pastor I empathize with the pain of the MacPhail family.
I have stood with mothers as they have had to deal with the unspeakable horror of burying their children rather than having their children bury them. What is absolutely certain is the pain of the MacPhail family. What is absolutely uncertain is Mr. Troy Davis's guilt. And in that regard, because we are America, we can ill avoid to execute this man.
MORGAN: Can I ask you -- this is a difficult question for you, but I want to put it to you. Do you believe that he's 100 percent innocent or do you simply believe there is enough doubt about the evidence that led to his conviction that should prevent an execution taking place?
WARNOCK: Well, I think that both would be grounds for halting an execution. That is the ultimate punishment. It is irretrievable. Most of us are horrified by the notion of someone spending 20 years, 30 years in prison only to be discovered later that they are innocent. Imagine taking someone's life. There is no way to correct that.
I will say to you that I have spent hours with Mr. Troy Davis over the course of the last few years. He is a man of deep faith. Even on Monday when I met with him he talked about this being a journey, a spiritual journey for him. He maintains his innocence.
As his pastor I believe that. But the question for the criminal justice system is not have we proven that he's innocent. The question is, have you proven that he's guilty and clearly the state has not. And that's why we continue to get these incredible stays up until the last moment.
MORGAN: I mean it's an agonizing time for Troy Davis whichever side of the argument you take. And I mean, do you know in terms of the practicalities of his evening, had he had his last meal and was he prepared for execution?
WARNOCK: I do know that on the last time he received an execution warrant, he refused his last meal. I spoke earlier tonight with his nephew, an incredible young man, whom Mr. Davis has mentored from death row. And he said that his uncle refused -- said that he would refuse his last meal again today.
He has continued to insist that this is not his last meal. I must say to you that he evinces a faith that is just amazing even to me as his pastor. I was there to encourage him. He inspired me and in a real sense whatever the outcome tonight, he's rallied the world. And I think caused all of us to rethink the death penalty.
People who were for the death penalty today I think will have to rethink this tomorrow. This is a water shed moment unfolding right before our very eyes.
MORGAN: Can I ask you, do you believe the death penalty is ever acceptable under any circumstances?
WARNOCK: Well, as a Christian, as a man of faith, and because I believe of what -- because I believe in the best of America I am opposed to the death penalty. But the extraordinary thing about this case is that people who are supporters of the death penalty, the likes of William Session, former head of the FBI, Bob Barr, a congressman from Georgia, with whom I disagree about 95 percent of the time, has gone public saying that this execution should not take place.
We live in a sharply divided partisan time in which Democrats and Republicans cannot even agree on the debt ceiling in the midst of an economic crisis. Yet Bob Barr and Jimmy Carter believe that Troy Davis should not be executed. Clearly the state of Georgia needs to pay attention.
MORGAN: Reverend Warnock, thank you very much for your time. And obviously it's going to be a very difficult evening for you. And we appreciate you taking time to talk to us.
WARNOCK: Thank you so much for having me.
MORGAN: And we'll bring you all the latest breaking news from that story. The so far delayed execution of Troy Davis throughout the show.
Our other big story tonight is a much happier one. The release of American hikers Josh Fattal and Shane Bauer from an Iranian prison after more than two years in captivity. My next guest is a woman who escorted them from the prison to the airport.
Livia Leu is Switzerland's ambassador to Iran, and she joins me on the phone.
Ambassador, thank you for joining me.
LIVIA LEU, SWISS AMBASSADOR TO IRAN (via phone): Thank you for having me.
MORGAN: And we're watching these extraordinary scenes with the two young men coming off the plane to meet their families. Scenes of utter joy as you -- as you would expect. How have they been today? You spent more time with them than anybody else. What's their mood been like?
LEU: Well, of course they were completely overjoyed by the perspective that finally this was all over. That they were about to meet their families. And it was just even on a very personal basis, it is a real pleasure to see them and see they're in good shape there. They're well. So that was great.
MORGAN: Yes, I mean, do you feel they've been treated well? Are they -- do they seem healthy to you? Have they had to have any kind of medical treatment so far?
LEU: Yes, they seemed -- they seemed well. They seemed strong. They had no immediate complaints. And I think they have been treated well in the sense of, you know, good food and a decent cell and everything. So in that sense no complaints.
MORGAN: Can you confirm that the million dollars that was paid over came from the sultan of Oman? Is that correct?
LEU: Well, these are the kind of things that I don't really want to speak upon the -- you know, the details of the release. But in any case, everything fell into place. And the important thing is that it was possible for them to finally be back after more than two years.
MORGAN: Do Josh and Shane -- now that they've been freed, do they accept that in any way they did break the law in Iran? Do they -- do they understand that they may have done that even if it was inadvertent?
LEU: Well, you'll probably have to ask them yourself. We did of course in the short time we have not talked about that. They have repeatedly said that they were -- had no intentions of entering Iran. And if they did so through an unmarked border that they were sorry about it. But as you know the border there between Iraq and Iran is not marked, so it is not necessarily clear where which country starts.
MORGAN: I know you're a mother yourself, Ambassador. How important was it to the two young men that their families were so determined to get them back and obviously tried everything they could to do that?
LEU: This was a very, very important for them. I think in the beginning it was very hard they didn't get any information, any -- from the families nor contact with us. So they felt extremely isolated. They have just told me how important it was this very first time to actually visit them and then, you know, later on it was possible to organize that they would receive letters from their families.
And this was absolutely key to them. But you know being in prison they did not know everything that was going on over these more than two years. And I'm sure they will discover now many things that they didn't know. We, of course, tried to keep them informed as much as possible but it's not the same as if you go every day to everything that has been going on.
MORGAN: Well, Ambassador, it's a wonderful end to what's been a very long and drawn out and very difficult story for the families in particular. And thank you very much in joining me.
LEU: Thank you.
MORGAN: And I want to turn to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and his quest for formal U.N. recognition of Palestinian statehood. President Obama had meetings today with Abbas and with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
How close are the two sides to actually doing a deal?
Joining me now is Ambassador Maen Areikat. He's a PLO representative to the United States.
Ambassador, thank you for joining me.
AMB. MAEN AREIKAT, PLO REPRESENTATIVE TO THE UNITED STATES: Thank you.
MORGAN: A lot going on. A busy day. The president met with both sides today. What is your understanding of how the meeting went with Mahmoud Abbas and the president?
AREIKAT: Well, the President Abbas met with President Obama this evening and they exchanged views about the Palestinian decision to go to the United Nations to seek full membership at the international organization.
It was actually a repeat of the U.S. previous positions which are very well known to the Palestinian side. The president reiterated the support of the United States for a Palestinian state for the two state solution. And he expressed the U.S. opposition to the Palestinian seeking full membership at the United Nations.
The U.S. believes that it has to be the outcome of bilateral negotiations. At the same time President Abbas explained to President Obama that the Palestinian decision was made and that the Palestinians are determined to go to the U.N. to seek a full membership at the United Nations.
MORGAN: But this is a political move, isn't it? Because you know there's no chance of actually winning full membership. You know the Americans are going to have to use the veto. So what is the real game that's being played here? What do you really hope to achieve this week if you can?
AREIKAT: Well, actually what we are trying to achieve, we're trying to send a clear message to the international community that the current status quo that exist on the ground in the occupied Palestinian territories cannot continue.
Israel is in a situation where they don't have to pay for the consequences over their continued occupation of the Palestinian people and the Palestinian land. And therefore we have to change the dynamics, the political dynamics on the ground.
We are trying to elevate the status of the Palestinians at the United Nations from that of an entity to a state, which will enable the Palestinians to be talking to the Israelis at more equal footing. And the Palestinian territories will be an occupied territory by a member state of the United Nations.
This does not exist today but it is a disparity between the two parties that Israel exploited in the last 18 years of negotiations to its own advantage to further its objectives on the ground in the occupied Palestinian --
MORGAN: I mean, you know, I've heard the arguments on both sides. I've interviewed Barak yesterday. I've interviewed Benjamin Netanyahu. And they say that the security of Israel is paramount to them. That many, many of their people have been slaughtered by terrorists as the put it.
So I've heard both sides of this argument. I have sympathy on both sides. I think what I feel like most people is right now with all this going on in the Middle East, with all the uprisings, the Arab Spring, all the positivity and hope, it really seems like there's never been a better, more important time than right now for this deal to be done.
And I sensed that they feel, the Israelis, that in Mahmoud Abbas they have somebody that they can do business with. That was the sense I got. I felt that that was a positive sign. They felt they could do business. But they're concerned about Hamas there. Hamas have already indicated they don't even want Mahmoud Abbas coming to the U.N. They don't want anything to do with that. They are implacably oppose to this.
How can you deliver a peace process if you don't have Hamas with you?
AREIKAT: Well, I think this is an issue that has been brought over and over again by Israel unfortunately to be used as a pretext not to move forward. The Palestinian leadership President Abbas has indicated repeatedly that the PLO which continues to represent the Palestinian people everywhere inside the occupied Palestinian territories and in the (INAUDIBLE), is responsible for conducting negotiations with Israel.
And beside in that, once we conclude an agreement, it would be presented to the Palestinian people for referendum.
The issue here is not Hamas. The issue here is Israel's continued refusal to engage the Palestinians in meeting for genuine negotiations to end the conflict and to resolve all outstanding issues. Ever since Prime Minister Netanyahu took office two and a half years ago he completely shunned all efforts by the United States, by the international committee, by the Palestinians to sit down and discuss issues starting with security on borders in order to move the process forward.
MORGAN: Do you believe finally that a deal is achievable now? Do you sense that there's enough international world led by Barack Obama to get this done?
AREIKAT: Well, I think if you are talking about from now until Friday that the Palestinian decision is very clear. We are determined to seek full membership at the United Nations. We have been waiting --
MORGAN: I'm more talking about, could you get a peace deal done by Christmas? Could you do that?
AREIKAT: Well, we have indicated that the day after we become a member of the United Nations, we will engage the Israelis in negotiations in order to resolve all the outstanding issues. The idea of abandoning negotiations because of going to the United Nations is totally a myth and the Palestinian leadership has stressed that it will engage the Israelis in meaningful negotiations the day after we become a full member state of the United Nations.
MORGAN: Ambassador, thank you very much.
AREIKAT: Thank you, sir.
MORGAN: Next a man who could be the Republican nominee for vice president, Governor Mitch Daniels.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. MITCH DANIELS (R), INDIANA: Our morbidly obese federal government needs not just behavior adjustment but bariatric surgery.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: That was Indiana Governor Mitch Daniels at this year's Conservative Political Action Conference. He's a man of strong views on the American economy. And he joins me now.
Governor, thank you for joining me. Keeping the republic, saving America by trusting Americans. With a little thing here, America's best governor it, says a man from "The New York Times."
DANIELS: You have to take that up with him. I don't -- I don't know what made him say that.
MORGAN: How are you going to keep the republic?
DANIELS: I hope we're going to do it by, first of all, placing the future ahead of the present which is to say matching long-term means with ends. We're badly out of whack as we all know. Huge debts today. Like so many other developed countries. And worse still we've made unfundable commitments for tomorrow.
So it has to start with that. We have to commit the nation to the growth of the private sector.
You know what's troubling me most, Piers, is that it's not just our economy at stake. I think it's the whole American prospect, the American promise of upward mobility for all. And I go so far as to suggest really the whole -- the project of governor of the governed here is on trial here as many philosophers through time always predicted it would be.
MORGAN: I mean what your critics say, I mean you're known as this fantastic (INAUDIBLE) you're the knife and the blade when you worked for President Bush because you were so aggressive with spending cuts. But they also say, look, this is a guy that brought in the Bush tax cuts. And that has been partly responsible, along with going into wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, for the financial mess the country has got itself into.
So far from being the one who keeps the republic, you're the one that stuck the republic in the mire. How do you respond to that?
DANIELS: Well, I think it's a little overstated. You know maybe it's the testimony of those years to my poor powers of persuasion. I was always arguing with the Republican Congress, it's fair to say, it wasn't the Democratic Party in charge in those days.
I gave speeches at the National Press Club and other places, pointed out they didn't pass conflicts of the America. Harry Truman at the time of Korea is a great example, had really reduced spending at least temporarily on other things. That's what might -- that's what you do if you take on new obligations or wars. Didn't get very far with that. and we did have guns and (INAUDIBLE) and that was part of it.
But you know --
MORGAN: You know (INAUDIBLE) today that it's only a tiny part of it and shouldn't really be considered. I mean it's a trillion dollars. That's not a tiny part of the budget, is it? A trillion dollars on wars?
DANIELS: Well, it didn't sound as big as it used to now that we're running $1.4 trillion every year. I mean the biggest deficit under George Bush was one-third the size of the one we're running today.
You know, I'm not here to argue or defend anything that happened back then. If you're going to know what I really think about spending, it's probably better to look at the seven years I've actually been in charge of something.
MORGAN: Well, your work in Indiana is very good. And you've got reelected there and it's coming to an end in 2012. And it's very good in many, many areas. No question.
MORGAN: But what I would put to you, I say that even someone like you who's got a great fiscal record in your state you still struggle with unemployment. It's up to 8.2 percent.
MORGAN: National average is 9.2. So a little below that but it's rising. And you're clearly, despite having all the answers, having similar problems to the president.
DANIELS: First let me say I try to be very explicit in this book that I don't claim to have all of the answers. I take the responsibility --
MORGAN: Some of the answers?
DANIELS: I take the responsibility for often what I think are the best answers. But I say many times that this situation I believe is so urgent that no one can afford to be totally doctrine. And I say in there that if it comes to the second or third best set of answers as opposed to inaction and the disaster that would bring, then you could count me in for one. You know --
MORGAN: How much -- how much of President Obama's problem is down to the Republican eight years running the White House? In other words, the financial crisis, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, tax cuts and so on. How much of what he inherited percentagewise is to blame for the current malaise? And be fair minded about it.
DANIELS: Some percentage, you know the biggest problems by far --
MORGAN: And where would you put it?
DANIELS: Statistically if you were to repeal the tax cuts you'd solve less than 10 percent of the problem we have today. So --
MORGAN: You wouldn't honestly look me in the eye and say that only 10 percent of the financial problems America has today are down to the Republicans, would you?
DANIELS: Well, that's a different question. Because, listen. The problems that we're really facing, the ones that are -- I think ought to absorb our attention are far bigger than any one year's deficit. Last -- the previous ones even the enormous ones, the unprecedented ones were running right this minute.
The unfunded liabilities we have stacked up for ourselves compounded by debts at the state and local level. Not to mention private debt is an enormous overhang on the American future. And a major theme of what I've tried to say in this book is that whatever got us into this, they did endlessly now is a waste of precious time. I believe the clock is ticking and that the need for change -- big change is urgent.
We need to reform the safety net programs, not for those in the now but for the future. We need a pro-growth tax plan, tax reform. We ought to be wholeheartedly supportive of domestic energy production in every form, absolutely every form.
MORGAN: One of the main themes of the book is also -- it's civilized. You're not ripping into your opponents.
DANIELS: I sure try not to. MORGAN: Here's my big problem with what's going on with some of the Republicans -- it's a big problem that many Americans feel, is that up in Washington, they made it absolutely clear, some of them on the record, we want Barack Obama to be a one-term president.
And they're doing everything they can to do him in. And they're being as intransigent as they can. They're causing huge riles over the debt ceiling when there shouldn't have been any and everyone knew that. There's a real disconnect between what's going on there and what the public wants, which is just sort the mess out, you lot, together.
You seem much more unifying in your tone in this book than many of your colleagues in the party. What is your message to them as they continue to tear into Obama and make it all very partisan?
DANIELS: Yes, well, I have found in -- we have found in our state -- and I had to learn this the hard way, honestly -- that if you're interested in results, then you must always strive to bring people together. Big change requires big majorities. And we need big change to avoid becoming the Greece of the future.
MORGAN: But Barack Obama has tried to do that. That's exactly what he said when he came in. He wanted to be inclusive.
DANIELS: He has said it --
MORGAN: He wanted to work with the opposition. But when he has tried, the Republicans have stamped on his head.
DANIELS: Piers, you joined us fairly recently. Maybe you missed a few twists and turns in the road. He ran over, with the help of big majorities -- I mean, they were entitled to. They won the election. But he had his way completely for two years, ignored -- ignored reservations that Republicans had. And my gosh, the -- what a divisive speech he gave this week.
MORGAN: You can't blame him, can you.
DANIELS: Let me just say --
MORGAN: Having been trashed all summer, he has finally come out and went, OK, if this is the way you're going to play it, I'm going to get dirty too.
DANIELS: He gives as good as he gets. I mention in the book, he's a self avowed acolyte of Saul Alinsky, who believed- who started his advice, you know, to radicals with personalize and condemn your opposition.
MORGAN: Hold that thought for a moment. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, I want to continue this and hear how you're going to beat Barack Obama in the next election. Maybe not you personally or maybe it will be you personally. Who knows? (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MORGAN: Back with me now is Indiana Governor Mitch Daniels, author of a new book, "Keeping the Republic: Saving America by Trusting Americans."
Governor, got to ask you about this whole issue of executions. In your time in Indiana, I know you've executed nine men. Obviously, it's always a hard thing to do. You've had appeals for clemency that you've rejected. As you see what's going on today in various parts of America, what is your view of executions generally?
If you had your -- your way, would you dispense with them? Do you believe that it's becoming increasingly unpopular? There are far less of them now than there used to be. There are less murders than there used to be in America.
DANIELS: Piers, I've -- it's the one thing I was least prepared for in taking on this assignment. The first such decision came -- the first two or three came very quickly. I don't understand anybody who says they don't have at least some ambivalence about this subject, really on either side.
In our case, I'll tell you how we've resolved it. I, after an awful lot of thought and reflection and counseling with other people -- I -- the people of our state have said very emphatically that they believe, at least in the most extreme cases, this penalty is appropriate. I've decided it's not my -- it was not for me to substitute my own individual -- any individual judgment I might have for theirs.
But we are very careful about it. I read the files twice myself. Our rule is there can't be a scintilla of doubt about guilt, and secondly, that there must be clearly a heinous -- the most heinous kind of offense involved.
MORGAN: But do you personally believe in the death penalty?
DANIELS: I believe there are circumstances in which it is warranted. I've now had to confront some of those. I've commuted a sentence, and approach each one really from the standpoint that I very well might. I will tell you that at least in our state, this is a diminishing thing because very -- I don't know that any jury has imposed this sentence on any defendant now for quite some time. I may have missed somebody.
MORGAN: Beginning to spread around America. My sense is that it's going out of fashion, that more and more Americans are saying do we actually need to do this? If there can ever be doubt, why have it?
DANIELS: This is certainly what juries appear to be doing. But I -- again, I will say that the people of our state -- I can't speak for others -- have expressed in clear terms their belief that it ought to at least be an option for the worst of the worst of the worst such offenses. And -- but I freely admit that the loneliest nights I've spent as governor are those in which we impose this sentence and we wait until the very last minute to make certain there's not a good reason not to.
MORGAN: Let's move on to the presidency, the campaign next year. You ruled yourself out when many wanted you to rule yourself in. And you kind of cited family reasons, you know, you -- happy marriage again. I want to come to that in a minute. A curious setup, your marriage, over the years.
And then you've sort of flirted now, it appears to me, with the vice presidency option, because your governorship ends just bang in time for you to be the VP, should the Republicans get in. Any truth in this theory?
DANIELS: I'm not flirting with anything. You know, a whole string of people keep bringing it up. I think it's the silliest question in our politics. It's --
MORGAN: Do you have absolutely zero intention of ever being vice president?
DANIELS: Yeah I have zero intention and zero expectation. And it's all in someone else's hands.
MORGAN: Could it ever change? If somebody asked you to be, would you say no?
DANIELS: Well, I think that's something that a person ought not say. But it's so hypothetical and improbable that I don't spend one -- I promise you, I don't spend one --
MORGAN: If I was someone like Mitt Romney or, you know, Jon Huntsman or Rick Perry or whoever it is, and you get the ticket, who would be better than Mitch Daniels with your record as governor? So it's not improbable that they're going to ask you.
DANIELS: Off the air, I'll give you a long list.
MORGAN: Would you say no if one of them asked you?
DANIELS: I can't tell you the answer to that. You know, we probably have to have another conversation in the family. I don't know what they'd say.
MORGAN: As a politician, you know that that's basically a yes.
DANIELS: You're too cynical, Piers. We Americans are not --
MORGAN: I'm trying to be positive here. Tell me about your marriage. Do you ever think that might be a problem for you politically? Or is it an asset that you split up from your wife. You get divorced. And then you get back together and get remarried. It's an unusual state of affairs.
DANIELS: Well, if -- I always say, if you like happy endings, you'll love our story. So I have no idea. I have never presumed to tell a voter what's important and what isn't. Everybody's entitled to decide for themselves. But I -- you know, I think I'm the most fortunate person you'll interview this year, in terms of both the family I have and the good things that have come along in life. So I don't spend a minute worrying about it.
MORGAN: I'm glad it ended happily for you, governor. I really am. Thank you for joining me.
DANIELS: I enjoyed it. >
MORGAN: Much appreciated. Good luck with the book.
MORGAN: When we come back, two presidents and a top fashion designer on how they're helping save a devastated country.
MORGAN: Haiti is still dealing with the effects of last year's devastating earthquake. And help is coming in from around the world, including from my next guests. Joining me now is President Paul Kagame of Rwanda, President Michel Martelly of Haiti, Dr. Paul Farmer, the U.N. special envoy to Haiti and the author of "Haiti After the Earthquake," and Donna Karan, the fashion designer and founder of the Urban Zen Foundation.
President Kagame, let me start with you, because obviously Rwanda went through a devastating period in its country's history, a country ripped apart by internal warfare. But you've managed to rebuild Rwanda in an extraordinary way, with the help of the international community.
When you see what's happening in Haiti and the problems they've had, obviously caused by a very different natural disaster in their case, what advice would you give them about how you rebuild a country that's been through devastation?
PAUL KAGAME, PRESIDENT OF RWANDA: Well, the first advice I would give the people of Haiti and the leadership in Haiti is not to despair and fear that they can't overcome the kinds of problems, however insurmountable they may seem. Because the leadership and the people, if they pull together and mobilize all their sources and their will, that is there to help the political will globally, and get organized and target the kind of assistance in a specific area and certain priorities.
Then they can pull through like Rwanda has done in the last 17 years.
MORGAN: How important was the direct help from the United Nations?
KAGAME: That is helpful at the beginning mainly, when there is this kind of situation of emergency, where all kinds of help is needed. But the most important thing is to have national ownership and make sure that there's coordination of the kinds of very well intended efforts to try and help.
If not coordinated, you may have a lot of help coming in or promised, but it will not result to any tangible --
MORGAN: Let me ask you, President Martelly, it's an interesting point, isn't it? When this disaster happened and the earthquake struck, you had the world's attention for a period of time. As with all these things, the world moves on. And you're left in Haiti to continue the reconstruction process and the rebuilding of a shattered country.
How are you getting on at the moment? And how much more should the international community now be doing that perhaps they stopped doing?
MICHEL MARTELLY, PRESIDENT OF HAITI: First of all, I must tell you we were really caught by surprise, for not having the culture of dealing with earthquake, first, and secondly, way before the earthquake, we had no infrastructure. So after the earthquake, we were really lost.
And then the world moved in. And a lot of money have been spent at that time. Unfortunately, today when we look back, we can't -- we can barely see what's been done with the money.
MORGAN: How much of that has been either wasted or, you know, lost through corruption or all the things that tend to happen in such a situation?
MARTELLY: Well, that's exactly the point. Today you can't say. You can't say, because they put the emergency in front and they're saying that it was about saving lives. So you can't really tell what money was properly used. And some people used the earthquake to make their money.
MORGAN: Dr. Farmer, I see you nodding there. You've been an expert in a lot of these areas before. You described the Haitian earthquake as an acute and chronic event, a disaster that hit an already fragile country. From what you've seen in Haiti, what is the imperative now?
DR. PAUL FARMER, U.N. DEP. SPECIAL ENVOY TO HAITI: If I could mention the imperative, what's always right in front of you. I'm a physician, so for me that would be a patient who's injured. And having been there after the earthquake, I understand that imperative better than any other.
At the same time, what the people of Haiti are facing now is not just relief but reconstruction. And the imperatives are getting kids back in school, building infrastructure, as President Martelly said, and coordinating the goodwill that -- I think there is a lot of goodwill turned toward Haiti. But if it's not coordinated, as President Kagame said, it ends up complicating matters.
One thing I think we can know, and President Martelly knows this, is that of the generous donations that were pledged to Haiti for acute relief -- that is saving lives -- less than one percent of that money went to the Haitian government and the public sector. And so, you know, you really -- you can't rebuild municipal water systems with NGOs, as well-intentioned as they might be.
Certainly, the one I volunteer for, Partners in Health, is very well-intentioned in Haiti and in Rwanda. But we don't -- we cannot replace the government. So we are trying to --
MORGAN: Bring in Donna here. You have this organization, Urban Zen. You worked with the Clinton Global Initiative to build homes in Haiti.
DONNA KARAN, DESIGNER: The model for the developing countries is their soul and their spirit. And I said you can look at this as negative or you can look at this as positive. And I think the people were quite shocked when I went down originally, because if -- I came out with a very simple way of doing it, and then I saw every person there as an artist.
So what I was able to do is work with the artisans, to work with the artisans. Everything here I'm wearing is made in Haiti.
KARAN: These are horn bracelets. This story is spectacular. A woman went down to adopt two children. So what did she do? She adopted a village, by recycling paper and making these beads. Then I had come in and worked with her in coloration, you know, recently, developing pa pier mache bags.
You know, having the opportunity to work with this type of creativity, I really believe it's the model.
MORGAN: How are they responding to this kind of thing?
KARAN: You know, it's not as easy as I thought. You know, but I do know that there is an answer here. I was so excited that I had finally put it on the runway at the Donna Karan Show. So I was able to show the people, don't give up. Unless we put philanthropy and commerce together, which I believe --
MORGAN: Which is exactly what President Kagame was saying, is that the U.N. and international community can go so far. But actually, in the end, you do need to have the people of Rwanda, of Haiti being inspired and helped and encouraged to rebuild from within.
President Martelly, you are the man. You're the man in charge of the government there. You have heard what the man from Rwanda says. He has been through all this. What do you think?
MARTELLY: First of all, the Rwanda model is a model that we are following very closely. First of all, we need to identify what we want to do. For instance, let's say we are going to work with coffee. We work with coffee and make the best out of it, to the point where we can again export coffee. Back in the years, we paid our independence with coffee. It was worth 21 billion dollars. MORGAN: I'm going to go and start drinking Haitian coffee. Thank you both very much, Mr. President, Mr. President, Dr. Farmer, Donna Karan. All been very interesting. And I hope that people have watched had this and react accordingly. Thank you very much, indeed.
MORGAN: Tomorrow night, I'll talk with a woman who plays one of the strongest characters on television, Emmy winner Julianna Margulies and the cast of "The Good Wife." And Friday, Morgan Freeman, legendary actor and a man of very strong opinions. Listen to what he told me about the GOP and President Obama.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN FREEMAN, ACTOR: Their stated policy, publicly stated, is to do whatever it takes to see to it that Obama only serves one term. What's -- what does that -- what underlines that?
Screw the country. We are going to do whatever we do to get this black man -- we can do -- we're going to do whatever we can to get this black man out of here.
MORGAN: But is that necessarily a racist thing?
FREEMAN: It is a racist thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Morgan Freeman, very controversial, on Friday night. And there's a lot more of that, let me tell you. And more on the delayed execution of Troy Davis on "AC 360" at the top of the hour. That's all for us tonight.