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Father-in-Law of Missing Woman Under Arrest on Disturbing Charges; Conrad Murray Trial
Aired September 23, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go. The father-in-law of a missing woman is under arrest on disturbing charges. You won`t believe who police say he secretly photographed.
And a teacher who had sex with an underage student is let off probation early. Why?
The Conrad Murray trial in its last frenzied moments before opening arguments next week.
And one of the most popular soap stars ever seems to be in trouble. Let`s get started.
And thanks so much for joining us tonight. New and disturbing developments in the case of a missing Utah mother, Susan Powell. Her father-in-law has been arrested on child pornography charges. Powell has been missing since December, 2009. Her husband Josh, has been a person of interest, but has not been named as a suspect. Her father-in-law, Steve, claimed he had a sexual sort of interaction with Susan, who is his son`s wife.
Last month, forensic specialists executed a search warrant at Steve Powell`s home. That was a month ago. And yesterday, he was charged and arraigned. Today on charges of voyeurism and possession of child pornography. He pled not guilty. What sort of man are we dealing with here? Watch this. We will talk about it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The biggest story of the day, Susan Powell. Remember her? The beautiful mother of two mysteriously vanished over a year and a half ago from her family home in Utah.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her husband says she vanished from their home while he took their two young sons on a late night camping trip.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The husband and his father are cooking up that she was having a sex relationship with the father-in-law?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We interacted in a lot of sexual ways.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, her father-in-law was arrested last night and charged with child pornography. Steven Powell is also accused of videotaping young girls and women without their knowing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also found hundreds, thousands of other pictures of little girls.
PINSKY: Wow. Joining me tonight, Mark Eiglarsh, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor. And Anne Bremner, attorney for the family of Susan Powell, and Chuck Cox, Susan Powell`s father. He joins us by phone.
Chuck, I`m going to start with you. What do you make against charges against Steve? Is it as surprising to you as it is to us?
CHUCK COS, SUSAN POWELL`S FATHER (via telephone): Absolutely, very surprising.
PINSKY: And what do you make of these, he has been saying some very peculiar things you know about Susan. What do you make of all that?
COX: Well, I know those are completely fabricated. There`s no way. I know that Susan was uncomfortable around Steve. My wife is uncomfortable around Steve. And Susan had told us he made improper advances toward her and that`s one of the reasons they moved away. But I had no idea this type of thing would come out.
PINSKY: Are we concerned that this man is part of the - going to become a suspect or should be a prime suspect? What are you feeling about this?
COX: I have full confidence in the police. I let them do that. I want to try and minimize any impact. You know, I don`t know. The police are working on that.
PINSKY: Yes, I understand. Now, a lot of us of course were shocked that Josh`s father Steve Powell made sexual unwanted advances towards Susan, and you`re of course confirming it. Here he was speaking ABC`s GOOD MORNING AMERICA. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVEN POWELL, JOSH POWELL`S FATHER: Susan was very, very sexual with me. She was very flirtatious. I mean, I`m her father-in-law, and she would do a lot of things that, I mean, she was, just she did it. I did I mean we interacted in a lot of sexual ways because Susan enjoys doing that. (END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Steve Powell has since denied these accusations and HLN of course cannot confirm them, but wow, that`s a bizarre way to describe one`s interaction with a daughter-in-law. Mark, with today`s charges against Steve, do you think police should make him a suspect?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Not exclusively based on these charges, but I certainly wouldn`t believe anything that flowed from his lips. You know when he said about his grandchildren`s missing mother at this time that she made sexual advances to him, I said this guy is a creep. What`s he doing? And now his arrest, karma.
PINSKY: And not only is he a creep by virtue of what he said, to me, watching him say these really despicable things about a missing woman. It is the affect he had when he sigh, there was a little glee in his affect, and that to me is hard to, hard not to become suspicious about, Mark.
EIGLARSCH: Well, the only good news out of this is apparently there were like a number of images, not just one or two. And the laws are pretty tough now throughout the country, particularly in Washington, where recently someone got 17 years, 25 years. They`re doling out significant sentences, depending on the type of images on his computer.
PINSKY: Steve Powell`s estranged daughter Jennifer Grave says Susan rejected her dad`s unwanted sexual advances. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIIRSI HELLEWELL, SUSAN POWELL`S BEST FRIEND: One of the reasons Susan and Josh moved to Utah, I found out few months they moved here. She told me was to get away from her father-in-law Steve Powell because he made these advances to her.
And after they lived here a year or two, he sent her a packet of pictures in the mail of her favorite actor. So, she opened the pictures and she started to flip through them. Her first thought was maybe he changed. This was nice actually nice of him to do this. And in the middle of the pictures were naked pictures of men.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Chuck, were you aware of this, and this sort of confirms what you were saying about why Susan moved. Were you aware of that particular episode?
COX: No, I wasn`t.
PINSKY: I`m so sorry. This whole thing sounds very, very disturbing. Is there anything you would like us to know? Keep in our prayers?
COX: Well, my daughter is still missing. As strange as this is, my daughter is still missing. We still want to know where she is.
PINSKY: Do you have any hunch?
COX: No, I just know that she did not leave of her own free will in any way, and if she could contact us, she would.
PINSKY: And Chuck, I appreciate you being with us. This is a story that is probably going to be talked about here and there. And this is I want to give you a chance to tell us and the viewers what do they need to know about Susan? Who is Susan and keep that in our thoughts as we follow up this case.
COX: She was optimistic. She`s an optimistic woman. She loved children. She wanted to have children. She wanted a perfect family. She`s willing to do anything that she could do within her power to make that happen. She`s dedicated to making her family work, her marriage work, and her children, provide them the best way she could.
PINSKY: Were they having trouble? When you say she was dedicated to making it work. Was she working through tough stuff? Like again, by the way, many families do. Don`t necessarily have anything to do with what we`re dealing with now, but is that what you`re alluding to?
COX: Well, she basically supported the family for pretty much the whole eight years they were married and took care of the children and took care of everything in the house and trying to be a super mom, and super wife, and that`s who she was.
PINSKY: Did she ever have any mood problems or problems that, you know, she might have hurt herself?
COX: No, not at all, never. The only problems she had was if she was having issues with her husband, and he would frustrate her and basically try to countermand her taking care of the children and having them go to bed or something like that, she would get frustrated with some of the things he would do.
PINSKY: Sounds pretty normal though. Ann, I want to go to you. Do you believe Steve Powell had something to do with this?
ANNE BREMNER, ATTORNEY, REPRESENTS SUSAN`S PARENTS: You know we`ve heard so far that Josh Powell is the only person of interest. That`s what we heard from west valley police in Utah the whole time, but this was a stunning development, Doctor Drew. And I think you know he took pictures of Susan that she didn`t know about and of her intimate parts.
It wasn`t only children and neighbors in this voyeurism. And the things he said recently about being sexual with her and that she wanted that, that`s complete falsehood like Chuck said. You know I don`t know if they are connected at all, but this was so stunning it will take awhile to digest this. But such averred behavior, they only looked at five percent of the images, there are thousands. And I think that this is just made the case a lot more complex.
I applaud the police. And like chuck said, we don`t want to point our fingers with anybody. We want a full investigation and want to find Susan.
PINSKY: Now, more next about Steve Powell and his bizarre behavior. Will arrest on child pornography charge effect the missing person case? Now remember, Susan Powell hasn`t been seen for two years. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENNIFER GRAVES, STEVEN POWELL`S ESTRANGED DAUGHTER: He won`t have the take advantage of innocents in the future hopefully. At least people will be made aware of the situation, his neighbors especially. It seems like they have been abused and taken advantage of.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED TROYER, SHERIFF PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICER, PIERCE COUNTY: He got some high end camera gear, basically a peeping tom as some high tech equipment. But through the investigation we also found hundreds, thousands of other pictures of little girls and people at parks, close-ups of body parts, and you know. So we have a whole bunch of victims out there that don`t even know they`re victims. The mothers of the girls we identified are absolutely distraught.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Welcome back. Thank you for joining us. We are talking about the disappearance of Susan Powell, Utah mother of two missing two years and the arrest of her father-in-law on some pretty shocking charges.
Now, let remind you who the players are in this case. We have Chuck and Judy Cox. We have been talking to chuck, they are the parents of Susan Powell. Steven Powell is the father of Josh Powell. Josh Powell is the husband and one of the persons of interest here. And there`s an estranged daughter, Jennifer Graves.
Back with us, Susan`s father, chuck Cox. He is in Seattle. Ann Bremner, attorney for the family of Susan Powell, and former prosecutor and criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh.
Chuck, you know I sort of asked you that before. But let me ask it again. Have you had, I don`t want to say suspicions, but problems dealing with Steve?
COX: Well, my wife has been uncomfortable. My daughter was uncomfortable around him. I felt it wasn`t appropriate for me as the father, as Susan`s father if she didn`t want to share her suspicions and issues with the police that, you know, I realize it is a he said she said thing. Then all this stuff come out, what he`s admitting and everything, I just can`t believe it.
PINSKY: How about the accusations that Josh keeps throwing out about Susan?
COX: You know they`re just ridiculous. They`re clearly diversionary. I just, I can`t believe it. He needs to man up, he needs to go to the police, tell them what he knows and help find my daughter.
PINSKY: I wonder if one of the theories we could float here is that, you know, a man like Josh who`s had a father like Steve who would be problematic himself, having been raised around that guy. Now, here Josh is accusing Susan of being promiscuous and unstable. This is from Josh`s interview on ABC`s GMA.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSH POWELL, HUSBAND OF SUSAN POWELL: Susan was very emotionally abused as a child. Her mother has a very angry personality, her father is very manipulative.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I mean, Chuck, you know, it is hard to listen to that stuff. Do you figure he knew about Steve`s proclivities?
COX: I know that his sister, Jennifer, was aware of them. I know that they were out there. But I chose to keep it to not to address them, certainly not make them public because it didn`t serve any purpose in finding my daughter.
PINSKY: Does Jennifer have concerns about Josh that she has shared with you?
COX: Not, not specifically along what Steve is doing or anything, but I can`t believe Jennifer knew about it, that Josh didn`t know about it as well.
PINSKY: I absolutely agree. Now, many of Susan`s friends have spoken out about questionable songs that Steve Powell performs under another name of Steve Shuntry (ph) wrote about Susan including one titled you were my first love. This is actually a clip from his Web site.
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)
MUSIC PLAYING: You were my first love I could hear your voice before I knew you your heartbeat was calming to me through you
PINSKY: Chuck, I don`t know what to do with this. I`m just getting very uncomfortable continuing down this road. What do we do? What do we do with this?
COX: Only thing is you know to me, he`s been arrested and this isn`t helping find my daughter. So I want to get the focus back on the search for my daughter.
PINSKY: Fair enough. Chuck, today`s developments, I have a question. Do you think your grandsons should be removed from the home?
COX: Yes. I can`t discuss that at all. I, there`s things that are in play there. And I just, the state laws the way they are, I can`t say anything about that.
PINSKY: OK. I just, you know, again, I don`t want you uncomfortable because of this conversation, it`s just something that I am sure is occurring to people. And we just hope that every precaution is being made to make everybody safe here.
Now Mark, if you were representing Steve, how can police be sure that Steve took the photos and it wasn`t Josh, for instance?
EIGLARSCH: Well, you`re going to hear that in the defense potentially. The first thing they`re going to do is attack the lawful seizure of the items. They are going to say, well, did you have a search warrant had to get those items? That`s always the first one in defense. Ultimately however, if they were lawfully obtained from his computer, the next thing is who else had access to the computer?
We learned that in the Casey Anthony case. As long as you can show someone else might have had access to the computer, you can create reasonable doubt. What I am hoping through, assuming these guys were involved that when somebody lays out, probably a defense lawyer, how much time he is truly facing for all the images on the computer that when presented with one option or another, he goes with option b which is alright, I`ll tell you what I know, or his son now says what he knows, assuming he knows something, because his father is facing all this time.
PINSKY: Maybe Cindy Anthony took a leave from work one day and used his computer. I don`t know.
PINSKY: Now Anne, I have a question from you. Does Susan`s family have a case to try or should they attempt to get custody of the boys?
BREMNER: Well, right now, the boys are in protective custody and the whole issue of course, we want confidentiality like Chuck said in the case. But for temporary custody, they would love to have the boys. And yes, they have the case.
So, you know they haven`t been able to have contact with their grandkids quite some time because of Josh and Steve Powell`s desires, their actions and court proceedings they instituted. So this is kind of you silver lining in what happens happened in the last 24 hours.
PINSKY: This whole thing is terribly sad case. This material we hear about today is product of a search warrant from a month ago. Are they continuing to search more?
BREMNER: The police have searched in Nevada, they searched in Utah. That they just finished an eleven day search in Utah for her remains. And of course, they searched in (inaudible). They have been doing a wonderful job like Chuck said, but they`re not telling us what they`re doing next but they have been active indeed.
And it is a case with this information that`s just come out on Steven Powell, you know, the voyeuristic pictures is taken from his bedroom. And some of what he`s been talking about, all of it is protectionism when you tried to say things about Susan maligning her character. We don`t know if he is maligning the dead or living, but he is maligning in any event projecting his own sexual beliefs and sexual fantasies on her.
But what in the world, seven-year-olds going to the bathroom, eight- year-old, neighbors. You know when you look at Mark makes some great points on the defense but they`re from his own bedroom. He is looking at these people and who in God`s name knows where Susan was when he took the pictures. Thank god she didn`t know. And she may never know. She didn`t know at the time but they were of her intimate parts. And we have to look at these and say, what if anything you know what if anything he could have to do with this, I don`t know. But these are stunning developments that we need like I said it`s just to digest at least on behalf of the family.
PINSKY: Yes. And Anne, I agree that these guys are predators like this interpret almost any interaction as sexualized, part of the distortions they get into. Thank you, guys, thank you Mark. Thank you Anne and of course Chuck, our thoughts and prayers are with you.
Now, a secret kept for nine months becomes a tragedy we will remember for years. You have been sounding off on the mother charged with killing her twin boys, moments after birth.
And later, what went wrong with actress Kim Delaney`s liberty medical speech last night. I got some answers ahead.
PINSKY: You`re looking at a vigil held at a church in Madison, Tennessee last night. Dozens of people showing up to offer support to the family of a woman who is charged with killing her newborn twins. Police say Lindsey Lowe (ph) hid her pregnancy and then suffocated her twin boys to keep her parents from hearing their cries.
She`s currently out of jail on $250,000 bond. This story obviously created a lot of controversy. A lot of outrage. And you guys have a lot to say about it. So, let`s get to the phones. Got Marie in Florida. Marie.
MARIE, CALLER, FLORIDA: Hi, Doctor Drew.
PINSKY: Hi Marie.
MARIE: I just want to say as a grandmother of a little angel who`s two and a half I don`t understand for the life of me why this behavior is acceptable to these young women`s mothers. Quite honestly, my daughter would have been as dead to me as those children that she tossed away like garbage.
PINSKY: You know very strong feelings you have. I certainly can relate to them and understand them. And it kind of goes to a different topic from me, which is parents covering for kids doing horrible things, and I think you`re right. The general note is you have to let the ax fall when kids have behaved in ways that are unacceptable.
Facebook. Teresa writes "when did the parents plan to let her become an adult? She was 25 for goodness sakes living at home. Was there a lack of trust issues in their family? I can`t understand why she hid the pregnancy."
PINSKY: You are absolutely right on target. I mean 25, its time to move on a bit. And if you remember Lisa West (ph), he is on the show a couple days ago, talked about the fact that this category of woman, let`s call, we call them patients, of course, really have three or four motivations for doing it.
One is for daddy, the daddy, the biological father to shame, they must hide the pregnancy from. The other is for the daddy of the child. They may not want that child to know that she was pregnant. Then there`s the daddy that`s the potential boyfriend perhaps or someone they`re supposed to be committed to and who they may have been cheating on. So and of course, the daddy of the social and ambient culture. Which is in her case, I guess she had a strong faith based organization she was attached to, and all of these motivators are there causing her to hide out and deny that she`s pregnant and look what it led to. It is unbelievable.
Sarah writes. "I heard some people saying Lindsey is a victim. Victim of what? Can you even imagine how scared and cold those babies must have been? She is not a victim!" PINSKY: Well said. I don`t think victimization typically creates this kind of behavior. It is hard to really I mean there are people that are victims that do horrible things, doesn`t really play out like this.
Also people try to lay blame on her pregnancy itself that some biological or neurobiological problem happened like a pregnancy associated psychosis, postpartum psychosis or depression. This is not the right time of course for that either.
Pamela writes. "I can`t believe we live in a day and age where a girl can`t tell her parents that she`s pregnant and then kill her babies just to hide them from her parents."
PINSKY: You know it`s a very good point, Pamela that somebody feels so fearful of their parents that they`re willing to kill? I mean it is just, its just - the whole thing is just chilling.
Coming up, 24-year-old teacher sleeps with her 14-year-old student then goes to prison. But she doesn`t serve all her time. Why not? Tonight, there she`s there.
And tonight, another woman was allegedly sleeping with her son`s underage friends. Why does this happen? Why is it OK for women to do this and do we more harshly judge men that engaged in this kind of behavior than women? We are going to talk about this when we come back.
PINSKY: Adults having sex with children, a teacher with a student. Accusations of a mom with her son`s friends as disgraced educator, Debra Lafave goes free. Police arrest this woman for the same crime. Why do they do it? And, are we easier on women who sleep with teenagers than men who do the same?
And later, the Michael Jackson death trial. After two years, 30 pages of questions and nearly 150 potentials, a jury is finally seated. Who are these 12? Why did lawyers pick them? And what will they decide in the death of the biggest star the world has ever known?
Plus, why was army wife actress, Kim Delaney, dishonorably discharged from an award ceremony?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): Welcome back. This was a case that made parents recoil. Law enforcement got angry. In 2004, 24-year-old Florida teacher, Debra Lafave, was caught sleeping with her 14-year-old student. Her lawyer managed a plea bargain with the judge claiming she was, quote, "too pretty to go to jail."
She served more than two-and-a-half years under house arrest but was released from probation this week four years ahead of schedule. And now, news that a 44-year-old California hockey mom has allegedly been caught sleeping with her son`s underage friends. So, what is happening here?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES AMORMINO, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S SPOKESMAN: He was at a teen party at the suspect`s home in Laguna Nigel. After all the players left, he was in a sleepover. After the victim`s son went to bed and all the other players had left, then the act occurred.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`d run into her a few times. I never expected this. You know, she looks like a nice lady. She was always very sweet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: With me here to talk about this, psychologist, Stacey Kaiser, criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh, and also joining us, James Amormino. You just saw him on the tape there, a spokesman for the Orange County Sheriff`s Department to discuss this latest case.
I`m going to start with you. Forty-four-year-old Kathia Davis woman was allegedly sleeping with her kids` friends on the hockey team. How did she get caught?
AMORMINO: She got caught when the victim told his mother what had happened. Then, we began our investigation. In the course of that investigation, we found a second victim and possibly a third victim.
PINSKY: Now, Mark, I have a question here. The question is, the justice system and how it looks at women that engage in this sorts of behaviors versus how they judge men. Is there a difference?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. Plain and simple. We all know it. You don`t need to ask me that. No question there is. I`ll leave it to the psychologist to figure out exactly why. I think a lot of men look at the cases that we`re talking about, and, you know, we called them victims now. Well, many of us when we`re teenagers prayed then, I guess, to be victims, you know?
That was part of growing up a teenager. We didn`t know it was victimization at the time. We just prayed somebody would give us some attention. But, look, now, we see a lot of these kids grow up and they have issues with women because there`s been manipulation by an adult into coercing some of these kids having sex.
So, there are issues involved. I`ll leave that to you, guys, to figure out exactly why it`s different than the harm that comes from it.
PINSKY: OK. We will talk about that. But, Mark, you started walking down a path there. You started to scare me a little bit. So, we`ll be getting some --
EIGLARSH: I moved backwards, yes.
PINSKY: I saw that. I saw the -- you duped (ph) around me there for a second.
EIGLARSH: I`m not justifying it. I`m not justifying it at all. They need to be treated with, you know, seriousness. These are criminal offenses. They`re taking advantage, and there`s something wrong with it.
PINSKY: Now, Mr. Amormino, I want to go back to you real quick and start of really kind of get a little more about this case out in Orange County. Are the families of the kids that were involved in this getting involved? Is the community getting involved? There must be a certain amount of outrage.
How are they going about dealing with this? Are there sort of educational programs where people are trying to step up and really deal with this as a community and understand why these things are so problematic?
AMORMINO: Well, there is a lot of outrage from parents that had kids on that same hockey team. There`s a couple of different hockey teams that had players that became victims by the suspect. And as you can imagine, it is hard to predict.
There was a lot of chatter among parents on that soccer team that they did not have a good feeling about the suspect, but I think they were more worried about their husbands than they were about the children.
PINSKY: Oh, that`s very interesting. What do you think this woman is looking at here?
AMORMINO: Potentially, she`s looking at a couple of years in state prison, if convicted. We do have two victims, so far. We`ve identified a possible third victim who has not been cooperating with investigators.
There`s a possibility there are additional victims, but in cases like this, a lot of victims will not come forward, because this is an embarrassing crime to a lot of people. I`m sure it`s embarrassing to the suspect and the suspect`s family as well as the victim`s family and the victims.
PINSKY: All right. Stacy, it`s up to you and I now to kind of break this thing down a little bit. So, here`s what we know. First of all, women, in my experience, you corroborate this with me if you agree, that the women I dealt with that engage in these sorts of behaviors usually have very, very severe psychiatric problems.
They`re either addict, just a drug addict, sex addict, severe bipolar, or like severe personality disorders, like multiple personality disorder, that kind of thing. Has that been your experience?
STACEY KAISER, PSYCHOLOGIST: That has been my experience. We also see definite low self-esteem, a problem with relationships of people their own age. And so, in a way, what they`re doing is they`re seeking a target that they think they can hit. They`re going for someone younger who`s not going to reject them.
PINSKY: Often, in my experience, again, it`s interesting that Mr. Amormino mentioned that the husbands were concerned about or the wives were concerned about their husbands with this woman, and that often, these guys are sex addicts, and often these sex addicts that are women were sexually abused at a young age, and that makes them more prone to potential of acting out on children. Have you seen that?
KAISER: Yes. I`ve totally seen that. And I think that the reason that these wives were picking up on something is she`s clearly a predator. So, there were predatory instincts.
PINSKY: And hypersexual. Hypersexual.
PINSKY: They oversexualize.
PINSKY: And, so, that`s something to keep in mind. If you see somebody is hypersexual, it`s not normal. It`s a problem, and it can lead -- listen, the person that`s hypersexual can cause as much pain for themselves as for other people. It`s not an OK thing. But, now, let`s talk about the victims, the so-called. We`re calling this young male victim. Mark Eiglarsh evidently thinks that they are just lucky young men. Sorry, Mark. You were going down that path, dude.
EIGLARSH: I didn`t say that. Back then, --
PINSKY: You were going down that path.
EIGLARSH: I was just thinking of some of my teachers back then and little did I know, I would say, please victimize me, but that was back then.
PINSKY: I understood. I understood, and I don`t want to make too much light of this, because that`s where this, unfortunately, goes in the public discourse. The reality is that, Stacey, again, correct me on this, is that the young boys, young men, too, sometimes, the underage males that are acted out upon have a horrible prognosis.
When you look at those kids that are the object of this kind of sexual acting out and predatory behavior, they end up with lots of problems behaviorally, with the legal justice system, personality disorders, and increase drug and alcohol use. Is that --
KAISER: Yes. Yes. And definitely problems in relationships. And you know, we were talking about shame earlier. Someone brought that up. And the shame for them is a little bit different. They`re ashamed to come out because there is this sort of social point of view for a lot of men that that`s cool. It`s great to be with the older woman.
She`s the woman that you want. There`s the cougar phenomenon. And so, they feel ashamed to come out and admit that they`re uncomfortable. That it`s causing problems for them.
PINSKY: And sometimes, the discomfort is sort of deeply emotional that they can`t quite process or even put words to or might not be aware of it. They just sort of -- it`s overwhelming to them. It`s a little more than their developmental stages can handle.
KAISER: Right. And they`re at such a point where they`re trying to become a person, an adult, that all of that shaping ends up altered.
PINSKY: They`re kids. OK. Thank you, Stacey. Thank you, Mark. And thank you to Mr. James Amormino. I appreciate you joining us today.
Next, jurors are seated in the Michael Jackson death trial. You might be surprised by the role that Facebook and other social media actually played in jury selection. Don`t go away.
PINSKY: Tonight, a jury is seated in the Michael Jackson death trial with opening statements planned for Tuesday. The focus of the trial, how did the King of Pop really die? That`s a question the world has been asking for over two years, and it all began with this call to 911. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a gentleman here that needs help and he`s not breathing. He`s not breathing, we`re trying to pump him, but he`s not --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did anybody witness what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, just the doctor, sir. The doctor has been the only one here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And that doctor was Conrad Murray, and the gentleman that laid dying, Michael Jackson. He was pronounced dead later that afternoon. Twenty-seven months later, a Los Angeles County jury will decide whether or not Conrad Murray is guilty of involuntary manslaughter. He`s accused of administering a fatal dose of surgical anesthetic to the King of Pop.
HLN is going to be covering this trial gavel to gavel. And I, myself, obviously, I think you know I have a background in medicine and addiction, so I will be sharing my point of view, and it`s a point of view you`re not likely to hear anywhere else. So, I hope you`ll stay with me on this.
Joining me tonight, Brian Oxman. He is known to Jackson Family for over 24 years. Judge Greg Mathis is the presiding judge of the syndicated court TV show, "Judge Mathis". Judge Mathis, 145 potential jurors filled out 30-page questionnaires last week. What did it take for 12 of these jurors to make that final cut?
JUDGE GREG MATHIS, PRESIDING JUDGE, "JUDGE MATHIS": Well, the attorneys had to determine whether they felt bias, of course. That`s the prevailing principle. And then, they want to look deeper into their psyche.
So, as I` told, they went into social networking to find out more about these folks, and the question would probably be most revealing in the sense that it answers the questions, it tells whether they`ve been victims of a crime, whether they have immediate family members who`ve been victims of crimes, or whom have been on pain medication.
Even as far as asking have they had sleep disorder, insomnia, those type of questions would have given insight to the lawyers to ask that they be stricken from the jury or use their three peremptory strikes.
PINSKY: And Judge Mathis, let`s talk about bias for a quick second. How is it possible that they could find 12 people that meet all those criteria you list and not have some sort of preconceived idea of the story of Michael Jackson?
MATHIS: Well, certainly everyone knows about it throughout the world. And the question is whether they can have a preconceived notion that is balanced and fair. Some folks might look at it and know the facts and say well, I`m not sure, I just don`t know. And from what I`m hearing on both sides, everyone has a point, and so, I`m just going to wait and see.
In fact, that`s what judges have to do. So, perhaps, we have some of the juror candidates also that may have been able to do such -- have such a consideration.
PINSKY: Now, earlier this week, lawyers for Dr. Murray filed a motion to show videotape of Michael Jackson at a March 2009 news conference. They believe the video supports testimony that Jackson was not physically capable of performing in his planned 50 concert tour. Now, watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER: I`ll be performing the songs my fans want to hear. This is it. I mean, this is really it. This is the final -- this is the final curtain call, OK? And I`ll see you in July.
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Three months after that press conference, Michael Jackson was dead. Now, Brian, you knew Michael Jackson. You were probably around him during that whole time. My question is, was he healthy? Was this a man that could tolerate a 50-concert tour?
BRIAN OXMAN, JACKSON FAMILY INSIDER FOR 24 YEARS: The answer is absolutely not, Dr. Drew. Everyone in this family knew full well when 50 concerts were announced, that this was a serious problem. I got a call from La Toya who said, Brian, he can`t do 50 concerts. They`re going to kill him.
PINSKY: Is that when La Toya thought that there was some sort of premeditated -- let`s called it a wish for Michael`s demise. That it was so clear to her that this would kill her -- kill him, rather. That anyone pushing him to do this tour was committing him to a death sentence?
OXMAN: I say yes, that`s right. La Toya and I talk a lot. We talk at all hours of the night, and she says I incite her with the information which I have about the case because I`m very deeply involved in the facts and the documents involved here. The thing here is that Michael had a broken back.
And everyone in this family who loved him, who knew about him, who was familiar with him, said there is no way to do 50 performances. Randy Jackson called me and said the same thing. Brian, what are they doing? It`s going to kill him. And here, we have what they got (ph).
PINSKY: They were not wrong. Now, at the center of the trial is the surgical anesthetic propofol. Now, propofol, let me explain a real quickly. It`s similar to something like barbiturates, Phenobarbital, but it`s a drug that so powerful. It`s bizarre to use it outside of an operating room, emergency room, or ICU.
In fact, if you look at the package insert, it doesn`t even -- I mean, it just describes its use in a monitored setting. It doesn`t even contemplate that anyone would use it outside of a hospital, its own package insert. But not only did it end up in Michael Jackson`s home, an investigation by "In Session`s" anchor, Vinnie Politan, discovered Conrad Murray had ordered a tremendous quantity. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VINNIE POLITAN, HOST, HLN`S "IN SESSION" (voice-over): April 6th, Dr. Murray ordered one ten bottle carton of 100 milliliter vials. Murray also ordered a 25 bottle carton of the smaller size, 20 milliliter vials. Three weeks later, on April 28th, Lopez says Dr, Murray ordered 40 bottles of the larger size and 25 bottles of the smaller size.
Around May 12th, Lopez says Murray placed the same order as he did on April 28th, 40 more 100 milliliter vials and 25 more of the 20s. And on June 10th, Murray placed his final and largest order with Lopez. Forty 100 milliliter vials and 50, 20 milliliter vials. That adds up to 130 of the larger bottles and 125 of the smaller bottles of propofol.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: To me, that`s a stunning, stunning bit of data. And Brian, you know something about Dr. Murray and his access to propofol. What can you tell us?
OXMAN: The fact that there was so much of this Dr. Drew, and the fact that it was ordered from a Las Vegas pharmacy while Dr. Murray knew the Las Vegas pharmacy, applied pharmacy, shipped to his girlfriend in Las Vegas, from Las Vegas to Santa Monica. His girlfriend is in Santa Monica.
PINSKY: Is that a problem already? Is that breaking a law?
OXMAN: You bet you. Because it wasn`t just propofol, there was Ativan, Versed, Valium. It breaks DEA, Drug Enforcement Administration regulations. You cannot ship to an unregistered location. Dr. Murray`s office was not at his girlfriend`s in Santa Monica.
PINSKY: Are they going to use that? Obviously, that`s a separate legal issue that they`re not going to -- I`m sure not to cloud this case with. Are they going to use that to sort of malign his character and judgment?
OXMAN: Sure. Without any doubt. It`s not that Dr. Murray is innocent. He is, at least, 50 percent responsible. I`ve been very critical of Dr. Murray. What he`s done here is absolutely wrong. But what worries us in this family, and me in particular, is the empty chairs, the other people, the other doctors, the concert promoters, the people who hired Dr. Murray, who were going to pay him, who promised him $150,000 a month.
PINSKY: Let me ask you this. Are we going to see other accusations coming down the line for other people? Maybe?
OXMAN: I think you`re going to hear the accusations right out of Dr. Murray`s mouth.
PINSKY: In the courtroom.
OXMAN: In the courtroom. He is going to --
PINSKY: Will that lead to legal action do you think?
OXMAN: I think so. My answer is yes.
PINSKY: Very interesting. Brian, thank you very much. Always a pleasure.
Next, a beloved -- thank you, judge. By the way, Judge Mathis, I so appreciate you being here as well.
A beloved soap star caught on tape. We`re going to show you what made many people uncomfortable. Don`t go away.
PINSKY: Tonight, what is wrong with actress, Kim Delaney? The actress who stars on Lifetime`s "Army Wives" and is best known for her role on "NYPD Blue" gave a peculiar, well, let`s call it bizarre speech last night, and now, it`s unfortunately going viral. Kim was at an awards presentation, and she took the stage, and then slurred her way through a speech that really didn`t make sense. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIM DELANEY, LIFETIMES "ARMY WIVES": Yes, we have members of military on "Army Wives," and we do our best to tell their stories, and though, the characters are --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: She`s talking there about her experiences growing up in a military family, seeing soldiers terribly injured, and attending the funeral of her best friend`s son. None of that happened. Now, then, she corrected herself, admitting that she was not talking about herself but the character she plays on "Army Wives." The audience got more and more uncomfortable, and she was eventually, as you see, escorted of stage.
She, apparently, was reading it off a teleprompter, but for some reason, need to wing it. Psychotherapist, Stacey Kaiser is back with me. All right. Here is what -- let`s see if our take is the same on this. We`ve not discussed this, but Kim Delaney has a history of being treated for alcoholism.
She had previous DUI. She came out disheveled with sort of squinty -- she looked intoxicated, let`s face it. Would you agree?
PINSKY: We don`t know that, but I know. So, when an alcoholic or addict behaves strangely, it`s almost never the case that it`s not using drugs or alcohol, right?
KAISER: I can`t even think of another explanation for it.
PINSKY: Yes. We better hope that`s what it is.
PINSKY: Because otherwise, she had a stroke, and we need to really work her up medically. And so -- but I don`t want to make fun or light of this which is what I`m afraid people are going to do, because poor Kim Delaney has alcoholism, and it clearly is not going well. Do you agree?
KAISER: Yes, and it`s really sad, because even -- she can`t even hold her body up. Her hands are fidgeting. Her hair is a mess. I mean, she -- this is an embarrassing experience that when she sobers up, she`s going to look back at and be really ashamed and humiliated about.
PINSKY: She, apparently was on "The View" the next day. I`m not going to have chance to show this footage, but she was on "The View" the next day and looked completely well out together her old self again, which is not unusual also that people have the episodes, but here`s my concern.
You know, alcoholism is a potentially fatal condition. And she`s been treated, I guess, once before, maybe more than once before. There`ve been concerns about her functioning at work and all. When somebody`s getting to the point that everyone else is clearly aware there`s a real problem, there`s a real problem.
KAISER: Yes. And her circle has now gotten wider. The fact that it`s gone viral, we all now believe that she has a problem.
PINSKY: Thank you, Stacey.
Here is my concern. You know, alcoholism has really become, not alcoholism but addiction is one of the big diseases of our time. I think people are increasingly aware of how it is, how it works, has a genetic basis to it, it`s triggered by environmental events. It`s a condition that affects (ph) all socioeconomic categories. It doesn`t discriminate.
It`s a disease that affects everybody, and it`s not about being weak person. It`s not about something that people should be ashamed of. It`s a brain disease. Something happens to some people, and we should feel empathy for them, and we should encourage them to pursue recovery. I`ve seen miraculous recoveries. They`re great, and I wish Kim a full recovery.
We`ll see you next time.