Return to Transcripts main page
Conrad Murray Trial, Day Three
Aired September 29, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Welcome to our program. Of course, the Conrad Murray trial continues and we will continue to cover the trial. As a physician, I must tell you this story is terribly sad. A physician takes responsibility for the care of his patient and it ends up in his demise. It is clear to me as a doctor that Conrad Murray was over his head. The combinations of medications he used, in my opinion potentially fail any of themselves propofol, with something like Lorazepam, versed should never be used in combination, and propofol itself, personally I`ve never seen it used outside a hospital setting.
So, the entire situation at best, speaks of negligence, at worst, of murder. Ryan Smith is with us today with the details of what happened in court today. Ryan, what have you got for us?
RYAN SMITH, HOST, IN SESSION: Thank you so much, Drew. You know tonight, we have startling information and interviews you`re not going to hear anywhere else, including a one on one with a physician who says that he gave Michael Jackson propofol. Its day three of the Conrad Murray trial. And Michael`s inner circle took the stand. Take a listen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The stage is set for more dramatic trial in the trial of Conrad Murray.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Alberto Alvarez` testimony is about to take us into Michael Jackson`s bedroom.
NANCY GRACE, HOST, NANCY GRACE SHOW: Shooting Jackson up in the arm with surgical anesthetic, super powered propofol. He`s dead. Hey, he actually said anybody know CPR?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As you came in and saw Conrad Murray giving compressions, was his using one hand or two hands?
ALBERTO ALVAREZ, LOGISTIC DIRECTOR OF MICHAEL JACKSON: He was using one hand, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Alberto Alvarez, Jackson`s director of logistics, he is incredible on the stand today.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where do you chip away at Alberto Alvarez`s testimony?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Going to have to attack his credibility and try to impeach this witness to try to rehabilitate their case.
SMITH: Do you know what this is all about? We`re asking the question what happened in Michael`s final moments. You know witnesses painted a chilling picture today, Conrad Murray nervous. He is sweating. He`s trying to give Michael CPR in a desperate attempt to bring him back to life. Now, Michael Jackson lying on the bed, his arms outstretched. His eyes and mouth open. Michael`s son Prince weeping. His daughter Paris screaming daddy plus, the jury hears this 911 call made by Michael Jackson`s bodyguard. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he`s not conscious either.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is not conscious, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Alright. Is he on the floor? Where`s he at now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s on the bed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Let`s get him on the floor. Did anybody witness what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, just the doctor, sir. The doctor has been the only one here. He`s pumping his chest but he`s not responding to anything, sir, please.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: Tonight, did Conrad Murray try to hide that he was giving Jackson that powerful drug propofol? I want to take you straight to my guest O.J. Simpson prosecutor Marcia Clark, CNN chief medical correspondent Doctor Sanjay Gupta. He is also the host f "SANJAY GUPTA MD". Also, criminal defense attorney mark Geragos. And in just a little bit, we will be joined by IN SESSION correspondent Beth Karas who was in court today.
But folks, I want a have a very frank discussion today. You know you look at this case and there are two sides to every story. The prosecution is giving their part of it now and it is powerful. You look at this and start wondering, we`ll go through this today. What was this doctor doing when he was treating Michael Jackson? But remember, the defense is going to have another side of this. And we`re going to talk about that tonight as well because there`s a lot to this case. As much as they try to take Michael Jackson out of the case, he keeps coming back in, and that`s big as we talk about this. So stick with me. We`ll go through all of this.
And you know Marcia I want to start with you. Because today`s testimonies, Alberto Alvarez, his body guard Kai Chase, his personal chef, they took us inside that room where Michael Jackson was slowly passing away. And the things they said about Doctor Murray, it just seemed like complete incompetence.
MARCIA CLARK, O.J. SIMPSON PROSECUTOR: It really did. It was incompetence what you would find as a bag or in a grocery store. One handed CPR, calling out to people do you know how to do CPR, not doing mouth to mouth until the very end, and then of course all of them failure to call 911. You call personal assistants? I mean every second counts. You don`t have necessary have all the equipment paramedics do, you don`t second guess in that kind of thing. You call in everybody. You call in the cavalry immediately to try to save this man.
SMITH: To Doctor Gupta, I am going to play devil`s advocate here. The defense tried to argue maybe Conrad Murray thought he had instructed Alberto Alvarez to call 911, he continues to do this. And that`s why the defense put up this list point after point of what Alvarez was doing. When you have a situation like that, in your opinion, when should 911 be called, and is it Doctor Murray who should be taking responsibility to do that?
DOCTOR SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: It should be called immediately, and yes, Doctor Murray should be the one taking responsibility. I mean he is the doctor in the room and he happens to be this patient`s doctor as well. Regardless of your expertise, in this case he is a heart doctor, a cardiologist you still call 911 as Marcia said because they have more resources. They have equipment. They have some of the tools that can help try to resuscitate somebody if that`s possible. Then they can get the patient to the hospital. That`s why you do it; you do it immediately before you even start chest compressions.
SMITH: But Mark Geragos, the defense are going to say here you know what, this is a man trying to save his life. Maybe he thought it didn`t reach that point yet, he was doing everything he could, and he couldn`t be on the phone with 911 while he`s trying to save Michael Jackson at the same time.
MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And if he thinks that Michael is passing before his very eyes, why is he going to stop to call 911? You remember, as Doctor Gupta just said, this guy is a cardiologist. If I am having a heart distress, I think I want a heart doctor as opposed to calling a paramedic that`s going to take 15 minutes to get through the streets of the west side to get to my house, so I`m not so sure that`s the biggest deal in the world. I think ultimately the bigger deal is the cleaning up of stuff in the bedroom. If that, if the jury decides they`re going to believe that, and that is kind of a guilty conscience, to my mind, that`s more devastating testimony, not the fact that he didn`t call 911.
SMITH: All right. You know what we`re going to get to the cleanup effort in a little bit. But Doctor Gupta, you`re shaking your head.
GUPTA: Well, I mean look, if anybody who has taken basic CPR training, it is the first thing you do, call 911 first. Again, it is not so much his training, because anybody that has taken CPR training knows how to you know do this. So, it is not so much that he is a cardiologist. You need to get people who have more resources, a defibrillator, and ambulance to get the patient to the hospital, that`s why you call 911. And you don`t hesitate because there is a time lapse for the ambulance to get to the house. It just the most basic thing, this is what you thought, call 911 first.
SMITH: And you know everyone is talking about tonight as we watched the testimony today, everybody is talking about this. Could if Doctor Murray or someone else called 911 sooner, would Michael Jackson still be alive? And that`s not it, folks. There was so much going on in this case today, we have to go through it. At one point they talked about the issue of giving Michael Jackson mouth to mouth, and the big point became as we looked at this, was he doing what was right in that room? Well, at one point he talked to Alberto Alvarez about giving Michael Jackson mouth to mouth after he tried a few times to try to breathe Michael Jackson back to life. Take a Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID WALGREN, PROSECUTOR: What, if anything, did Doctor Murray say as he was giving mouth to mouth to Mister Jackson?
ALVAREZ: I recall that after a couple or a few breaths that he breathed into Mister Jackson, he came up and he said this is the first time I do mouth to mouth. But I have to, he`s my friend. And he continued to give mouth to mouth, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: I`m going to tell you what this sounds like to me Marcia. There are two things bother me about this. First of all, the heart doctor who is getting paid $150,000 a month to take care of Michael Jackson saying this is the first time he`s ever done CPR. Secondly, he almost sounds like he is saying, well I don`t necessarily want to do this, but he is my friend, so I am going to do it anyway. This is not your friend, this is your patient.
CLARK: Yes. Everything about it is weird. It is a weird reaction, and I understand panic, it is a human emotion when something terrible is happening, but doctors are supposed to have the ability to have the calm and cool in this situation. That`s what it is all about, being a doctor. It would be like it would be as though I was a prosecutor in court and I all of a sudden fell on the floor and started weeping because a witness didn`t say the right thing. I mean he should be calm and cool in the moment and be taking care of him, not talking about I`ve never done this before. Oh, my God!
SMITH: That`s the last thing you want to hear. And you know what guys, I wonder if Michael Jackson was aware this was the first time he had done mouth to mouth, not that somebody would think this happened to me, but I think that`s why you have a doctor there, right? You want to make sure he will keep you safe. That wasn`t it as you heard Mark Geragos talk about there was this effort to try to hide what was in that room. Take a look at what Alberto Alvarez, Michael Jackson`s chief of security, said about Doctor Murray instructing him to hide certain things in the room. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALVAREZ: He reached over and grabbed a handful of vials, then reached out to me and said here, put these in a bag. Now place that bag in a brown bag. Move that bag and put it in the blue bag.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: You hear that. Take this, put that there, do this. Critical to this case, and you know what, a lot of people may say that`s consciousness of guilt. And we`re going to talk about this in a second.
But right now, I want to tell you, get full 24 hour coverage of the Jackson death trial at hln.com/MichaelJackson.
Coming up, we are also going to talk about Jackson`s his personal chef Kai Chase. She took the stand. Plus, the man we talked to in just a second. Have a clip from he defended Michael Jackson in the 2005 molestation trial. Tom Mesereau told me whether or not he thinks Conrad Murray is guilty. You don`t want to miss that. Keep it right here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM MESEREAU, FORMER MICHAEL JACKSON`S ATTORNEY: What I can`t understand is a physician withholding vital information from those trying to save his life. That`s just inexcusable. That`s consciousness of guilt if I`ve ever seen it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
Michael Jackson`s death trial and take a look at this, folks. That`s the courthouse where Conrad Murray faces trial, the ninth floor, that courthouse. In fact, that`s the same courthouse, same floor where O.J. Simpson faced trial. Marcia Clark knows that trial very well, also where Phil Specter faced trial. This is the floor where a lot happens in Los Angeles.
Now, today was all about Michael Jackson`s inner circle, his staff took the stand. That was big. Alberto Alvarez, his bodyguard, also his personal chef who was in the house when Michael died. You know she set the time line for that day. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAI CHASE, MICHAEL JACKSON`S PERSONAL CHEF: I saw Doctor Murray come down the stairs into the kitchen in a panic, in a frantic. His energy was very nervous and frantic and he was shouting.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What did he shout?
CHASE: Get help. Get security. Get prince.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: You know, let me ask Doctor Gupta about this. Conrad Murray`s energy, it is frantic, he`s upset. Tell me about what you think about his actions that day, because during the break we were talking about maybe the mouth to mouth isn`t the biggest deal because, you know, it is not necessarily the case that every physician has done mouth to mouth, but it is the way he is, running around as if his hair is on fire and doesn`t know what to do. Doesn`t seem like what you expect from a doctor.
GUPTA: It is very odd. And I think that you know time spent doing these other things is time he should have been trying to resuscitate his patient until the paramedics get there. That`s your obligation right in front of you here. So, you know it is hard to reconcile one thing that you know besides the panic, which you know is hard to predict human emotion like that, but there`s also you heard from defense in opening statements they said Michael Jackson died almost instantly. So whether or not Murray already knew this, and was coming to the realization that Michael Jackson was dead and was trying to figure out how to behave, how to handle the situation, who knows. You`re right. It is odd behavior.
SMITH: Yes and Beth Karas is with us outside the courthouse. Beth Karas, some of this seems like consciousness of guilt, this moving around, especially when the defense said, right, in opening statements that Michael Jackson might have been already dead when Conrad Murray got into that room then why all of the maneuvering and running around?
BETH KARAS, IN SESSION CORRESPONDENT: Well, that`s definitely what the prosecution will argue, that that conduct was consciousness of guilt and the defense is now saying that Michael Jackson died immediately. That was not Conrad Murray`s position to the security guards in his room that day. He would not let the paramedics pronounce Michael Jackson dead, which is what the ER doctor wanted.
He said I still feel a pulse, let`s take him to the hospital. I just want to add also that the first call he made was to Michael Jackson`s personally assistant, Michael Amir Williams. When Conrad Murray sat down with the police two days after Michael died and gave his one and only lengthy audio taped interview which the jury will hear soon, he was asked why you didn`t have the personal assistant call 911. When did you ask him to call 911? And he said because he said doing so meant I would have neglected my patient. Because I would had to explain to Michael Amir Williams why I needed him to call 911. That was his explanation.
He had just asked Kai Chase, the chef to call security, to get Prince, get help. Didn`t tell her to call 911. Didn`t tell Williams to call 911, and tells Alvarez to call 911, only after they cleaned up the room. Paramedics get the call at 12:22. They were at the house at 12:26. They were two miles away at UCLA Medical Center. They were there in four minutes.
SMITH: So you get the picture, folks. Didn`t call 911. The chaos going on in that scene, sweeping up that medication, all very strange, not the kind of behavior you would expect from a doctor. But there was more. Michael`s chef had some pretty moving testimony where she described praying for Michael`s life with his kids. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHASE: I approached them. I asked them why they were crying. They said there may be something wrong with Mister Jackson. We think Mister Jackson may be ill. And at that point I had seen the children in that area. I left my area, came into the foyer right around the kitchen area, so the children there, and the housekeepers, the children were crying and screaming. And the next thing we did, we started hugging and we came together and we held hands and we started praying. Neither one of us knew what was going on at the time, but the energy in the house did not feel good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: That`s the emotion that was going on inside that house. And Mark Geragos, what really frustrates me beyond anything is these children, these teenage children are being brought up to the room, Kai Chase talking about how Murray runs downstairs, calls for security, calls for Prince to come up while this is happening to his father, and they have to go through this.
GERAGOS: Well, look, Ryan, you can be frustrated by that, obviously they have to deal with it at some point, so that doesn`t worry me as much. The thing that`s a little disturbing, though, is we`re sitting here and talking, have you guys lost all tape of the cross examination of what happened today? Because if somebody were to just tune in and watch what I`ve been watching, they were watching a completely different trial. There was some cross examination today which cast a lot of doubt on a lot of these supposed recollections that took place, and I think that you do the viewers a disservice here because ultimately at the end of the day, if somebody isn`t watching, they think all of this stuff comes in, that it wasn`t cross-examined, that there wasn`t some sudden recollection syndrome as I would characterize as to what was going on in that courtroom today.
SMITH: Well, Mark, let`s talk about that then. Tell us the two or three things the defense pointed out. You make a great point. The defense tried to explain some of the actions.
GERAGOS: Right. One of the things they explained was when the bodyguard had been, had a delay, didn`t tell the police any of this, it was several months later after he consulted with a lawyer, all of a sudden he had these recollections. There`s a suggestion there were no fingerprints on some of the items, and my guess is that they`re not going to be suggesting that unless in fact there were no fingerprints.
My only observation is that the coverage of these trials, you hate to get to a point you got last time around on the last trial of the century, where people watched the coverage at night who actually have a life during the day and can`t sit and watch the trial, and they watch this thing and they don`t understand that there`s cross examination, that there are points that are made, that these witnesses are not as compelling and yes, there`s another lawyer in the courtroom who is actually doing some questioning. That`s my objection to this.
SMITH: All right, Mark. You make a great point. I mean this is just the prosecution side. We will see the defense side. And this is just the beginning of the case we`re just starting to figure this out.
Alright folks, as I mention, full trial cover gable to gable right here 24 hours a day. Check it out HlnTV.com/MichaelJackson.
Ahead, Michael Jackson`s private world, we are taking you inside Neverland Ranch with exclusive footage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What would anything was a request of Conrad Murray to you?
MICHAEL AMIR WILLIAMS, MICHAEL JACKSON`S PERSONAL ASSISTANT: Well, we`re making small talk about how horrible this is and both of us, was tearing. And he asked, he said that there`s some cream in Michael`s room or house, room that he wouldn`t want the world to know about, and he requested that I or someone give him a ride back to the house to get it so the world wouldn`t know about the cream.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To get the cream so the world wouldn`t know about it?
WILLIAMS: Yes, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: That`s Michael Williams, Michael Jackson`s personal assistant, testified yesterday about what happened in that room, the calls he got from DoctorConrad Murray.
I want to go back to Mark Geragos. He was bringing up a good point, got both sides to this case. And Mark, earlier you mentioned this idea so damaging for Doctor Murray, testimony about gathering up medications, Alberto Alvarez talking about being directed to put medications in a bag. The defense tried to handle this head on. And this is probably as you mention one of the most damaging parts of what we heard today for Conrad Murray`s case.
Tell us about the defense of that and how you think the defense handled it, because it is so hard to overcome.
GERAGOS: Well, let me just say something at the outset. I defended Michael I think for 18 months. I handled the entire child protective services investigation, came to really adore those kids, think the world of those kids. I think the job he did as a father was amazing. And I would never have ever wanted to see any harm done to Michael Jackson.
At the same time, you hate to see what I consider to be a prosecutorial gang bang based on snippets of this trial. The defense in this trial and everybody is entitled to a fair trial and entitled to kind of see both sides of what`s going on and reserve judgment until the end of this case.
What happened today at least, and they took it on head on, was that the stories were delayed. That they weren`t told immediately. There`s going to be jury instructions here in California that tells you how to analyze witnesses. There`s going to be things that are factors that judge Pastor is going to instruct those jurors to look for, and a lot of those things I think the defense scored points with.
So you would hate for people to watch the show and get the impression somehow that so far it`s been a tidal wave for the prosecution. It has not been. There has been tit for tat. There has been some sensational testimony. It has been undercut by the defense. There has been an ebb and flow so far. I would not for a minute KO the defense in this case yet.
SMITH: Alright Mark. Now, let`s talk about another thing here, the family that took center stage today. The kids talked about in the room. You know I interviewed Tom Mesereau. The defense attorney also worked with Michael Jackson in the case back in 2005 and I talked to him about the Jackson family. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MESEREAU: They`re a family, very unique family in the history of the United States and history of the world. They`re a family that`s always in the spotlight. These kids all grew up very poor and all became very successful. As the father said, people criticized me for being strict and being a disciplinarian, but look at my children. None of them ever went to jail, none of them ever got in trouble. They reached tremendous heights in entertainment industry including my son Michael, who became the greatest entertainer in history.
(END VIDEO CLIP) SMITH: Marcia Clark, stop to ask us a question but do you think the children will take the stand?
CLARK: I don`t know it is a good question. I don`t know that the prosecution necessarily wants to put them through that. If they do take the stand, and I can promise you that if the defense has some brain in their heads, they will be very, very will be soft and gentle with them.
SMITH (voice-over): The Michael Jackson death trial, day three. This case hinges on the potent drug, propofol, but what is it? What does it do? And what did it do to Michael? We`re breaking it down and talking exclusively to a doctor who used it on Jackson.
And later, an exclusive footage, we`re taking you inside Neverland Ranch and posing this question to an intimate friend of Michael`s. Why did Jackson pick Conrad Murray as his physician?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Welcome back. We`re going to go to Ryan Smith for the latest on the Conrad Murray trial in just a few minutes. But first, I`m speaking exclusively with a physician who says he gave Michael Jackson the drug, propofol, on two different occasions.
Cosmetic dermatologist, Dr. Patrick Treacy, first met Michael when he treated the King of Pop for vitiligo. He says he was not only Michael`s doctor but a friend, and he joins us now from Ireland. Dr. Treacy, first of all, tell us, if you don`t mind when, where, and why you gave Michael propofol?
DR. PATRICK TREACY, COSMETIC SURGEON FOR MICHAEL JACKSON: Dr. Drew, I suppose there are issues relating to medical confidentiality in this, and to an extent because it is in the public interest, I can say some things. Michael had derma fillers in his face, the area around his nose, just in this area here.
He was very hypersensitive because of previous sort of surgery that he had had, and as a consequence, he wanted sedation prior to getting sort of some fillers in space. Now, Michael requested an anesthetist to be present. I`ve treated Michael, I supposed, five or six times, but in the two times that he received propofol in Ireland, an anesthesiologist was always present and that was always his request.
PINSKY: Are you as concerned as I am that he keeps being called an insomniac and that here`s what using for insomnia, anesthesia, basically? And by the way, what is the cause of his insomnia? At no point do I see any of the physicians were treating that insomnia attempting to decide is he in withdrawal? Is he depressed?
Does he have hyperthyroidism? Is there something else causing this insomnia? No diagnosis, only the symptom of insomnia, which is the same thing as saying they`re treating a fever.
PINSKY: Very disturbing.
TREACY: OK. What my most serious concern -- my most serious concern about this case and I watched it last night is the fact that sort of, you know, the defense immediately turned around and said that Michael Jackson could have killed himself by given him a syringe of propofol. And a syringe was found underneath the bed. OK. If we know the facts, why is propofol so popular with anesthesiologists?
If you give an injection of it, there is no antidote, but it`s going to last four minutes and wears off. So, if he took a 20 mil syringe himself, the most he can give himself a shot of is 200 milligrams, which would only keep him asleep for four minutes, and he`d wake up again. So, it`s almost physically impossible that Michael Jackson could have killed himself.
PINSKY: I completely agree. That part I`m 100 percent in agreement with you on that. And this idea of it being a perfect storm that killed him instantly is also a bizarre notion, because, you know, when you get respiratory suppression from the --
PINSKY: I`m talking about the combination of drugs he was on, but even let`s say, it was enough to cause respiratory suppression, you`re looking at quite a period of time before somebody is dead. I will play a little tape for you of exactly this issue in court. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believe the evidence will show you, the scientific evidence, will show you that when Dr. Murray left the room, Michael Jackson self-administered a dose of propofol that with the lorazepam created a perfect storm in his body that killed him instantly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: There`s no other way to understand what he received and how he responded to it, except the fact that he must have been severely tolerant to benzodiazepines to not have been knocked completely unconscious by the combination of medicines he was on. Wouldn`t you say?
TREACY: To an extent, Dr. Drew, I totally agree with you. But we also, I supposed, have to look at the coroner`s report and the toxicology, and we know he died of acute propofol toxicity. That levels that were there enough to cause toxicity. So, no matter what way they want to put a spin on it, there`s no way he could have done it to himself.
The only person that could have done it was the doctor who was there, because you would have to manually run a maintenance dose in order to keep him asleep. So, if he woke up, give himself a shot, he`d wake up again in four minutes, so it makes no logical sense the argument they`re putting forward.
So, we got a doctor who, probably, has for one reason or another, give him too much propofol, has done it in the absence of an IV giving set, has done it outside the normal parameters of the hospital (ph) environment, has done it without being able to resuscitate a patient, has done it without having even any tranquil apparatus present.
You know, sort have been the pulse oximeter (ph), and IV (INAUDIBLE) in other rooms. There`s a lot of things that certainly will come out, but, all I can say is during the period that I knew Michael Jackson, he certainly was not addicted to any drugs.
PINSKY: Now, in 1993, Michael, himself, said he`d become addicted to painkillers while taking medicines after surgery. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL JACKSON, ENTERTAINER: I became increasingly more dependent on the painkillers to get me through the days of my tour. My friends and doctors advised me to seek professional guidance immediately in order to eliminate what has become an addiction. It is time for me to acknowledge my need for treatment in order to regain my health.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, here`s the deal for me. There he is saying I`m an opiate addict. And opiate addiction is a lifelong condition. This is what I can`t get through everybody`s head. That`s a lifelong disorder. And somebody with opiate addiction is exposed to addictive drugs, their disease is active again.
That`s just the way that condition works. One of the questions that people keep having is, how did -- go ahead, I`m sorry.
TREACY: Sure. You and I know, you`re a toxicologist that if you take opiates often enough, everybody becomes addicted.
PINSKY: No, no, no. That`s not true. No, no. That`s absolutely wrong. Wait, I`m going to interrupt you, because everyone -- no, listen. Everyone becomes dependent.
PINSKY: Everyone becomes dependent. But an addict is the individual whose mind has been changed forever once you take them off the drugs. They have forever a persistent drive and motivational disturbance that never goes away. That`s the addict. The dependent human being --
TREACY: OK. That`s -- I`m sorry. That`s not my field of expertise. You know yourself, propofol isn`t a drug you become addicted to. You know yourself also that if you drunk propofol, you couldn`t put yourself to sleep, it would probably burn the back of your throat, you know, so, I think there`s a lot of other reasons why Michael Jackson maybe wanted to be labeled as a drug addict.
One of them, and I don`t want to go into conspiracy theory here, maybe, we know that if Michael Jackson died of natural causes or if he was complicit in his own death or committed suicide, the way the insurance payout is going to be totally different than if he sort of died because a doctor gave him too much of a drug. That`s the first thing.
The second thing is if you look at Dr. Murray`s sort of background in all this, he said he could cover him in the United Kingdom when he come over. Michael contacted me just before that. I looked up the GMC registration and the MCI in Ireland. Dr. Conrad Murray is not registered in either country.
So, I don`t see how he could give any drug within this jurisdiction to any patient, private or public. You know, so, there`s a whole a lot of things that sort of don`t add up with this.
PINSKY: You know, that`s a really interesting point. I wondered about that myself. What his plan was when Michael went overseas? Why he`s going to try to get a local physician or something? And your point has well taken on that.
I will say one thing about the propofol, though. We do see anesthesiologist in this country that get addicted to propofol, but you`re right, it takes a lot of work -- it takes into propofol. It takes more work to get it outside of a hospital, which is the really stunning part about this, but thank you very much, Dr. Treacy. I really do appreciate it.
TREACY: I -- I
PINSKY: Go ahead.
TREACY: You`re very, very welcome.
PINSKY: OK. Thank you so much. And, hopefully, we`ll talk to you again soon.
Next, we`re going to go back to the courthouse for the very latest on the Conrad Murray trial. Stay tuned to HLN for complete coverage. We`ll be back after this.
SMITH: Welcome back. I`m Ryan Smith sitting in for Dr. Drew this evening. You know, almost majestic, right? Those Los Angeles mountains, and then, in the foreground, you see it, the courthouse, the Los Angeles County Criminal Courthouse where Dr. Conrad Murray is facing trial in the death of Michael Jackson.
Today was day three. Michael Jackson`s inner circle took the stand. Michael Jackson`s bodyguard, not only his bodyguard but also his personal chef, and also a very important fact that happened today, Conrad Murray jurors heard the 911 call that prosecutors allege was delayed by nearly a half hour by the doctor`s attempts at a cover-up. Let`s take a listen to that again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. So, did you see what happened?
VOICE OF ALBERTO ALVAREZ, JACKSON`S DIRECTOR OF LOGISTICS: He`s pumping his chest, but he`s not responding to anything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: You know, you see Albert Alvarez, his bodyguard there. That was largely the theme of today. A lot of emotional stuff going on in the courtroom. So, with us tonight to discuss the trial coverage, Damon Elliott, he`s a record producer. He grew up with Michael Jackson. He`s long-time friend of the Jackson Family.
And Larry Nimmer, who met Michael a few times after he was hired as a filmmaker by the Jackson defense team to shoot exclusive footage of Neverland from Michael`s 2005 molestation trial. Now, before I get to my guests, I have to show you these folks. Let`s take a look at some of Larry`s footage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY NIMMER, PRODUCER, "THE UNTOLD STORY OF NEVERLAND" (voice-over): My name is Larry Nimmer. I`m the guy on the left having lunch in Michael Jackson`s kitchen. I was part of the Jackson defense team in my capacity as a documentary filmmaker and legal video specialist.
I spent many days videotaping inside Michael Jackson`s Neverland estate, and I spent two days on the witness stand, presenting and narrating my original video footage for the jury.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: So, Larry, we look at this tape, and we want to take our viewers through this, because it`s amazing to see Neverland like that. You rarely see Neverland close up. What was the defense team trying to prove with this footage?
NIMMER: Well, the defense team wanted to show what Neverland`s like to a typical viewer. They wanted the jurors to come out and visit Neverland. The judge said no, but you may prepare a video about Neverland, and all they had seen after then was the sheriff`s raid footage of Neverland. So, the defense team wanted to show that Neverland was really created as a wholesome place. Michael, really, was childlike, and it really was innocent things going on there.
SMITH: So, tell me what you thought before you went into Neverland and then what you thought afterwards?
NIMMER: Well, when I was hired to do the footage, I wasn`t a big fan. I had always found that Michael Jackson interesting. I thought maybe he`s a little eccentric. I liked his music videos. As regards, whether he was a pedophile or not, I didn`t really know. I didn`t know that there was a $20 million settlement supposedly in 1993.
So, I thought maybe where there`s smoke, there`s fire, but I didn`t really have an opinion one way or the other. Afterwards, I came away with a different opinion.
SMITH: So, what was that opinion, though? You look at this. It`s amazing to see it. It`s almost a full amusement park in the backyard. It`s just unbelievable.
NIMMER: Well, I came away with the opinion that Michael really was innocent. He was really childlike. He was sincere. I came away with the opinion that the media had mischaracterized Michael, that he`d been bullied by the American public. They made fun of, and that he really was an incredible artist that was very sincere.
SMITH: Damon, you knew Michael well. Do you feel like Michael was bullied by the media?
DAMON ELLIOTT, MICHAEL JACKSON`S CHILDHOOD FRIEND: Absolutely, no question.
ELLIOTT: Well, the media has a way of taking people and portraying them the way the media wants to portray them. Michael was a very private person, as is the whole Jackson family. And when you, you know, when you try to protect your privacy, people tend to try to pry more.
SMITH: You know, I`m going to tell you something that I`ve heard about this case, and I want to push back on this a little bit, because there`s been a lot of talk about Michael Jackson over the years before this trial, and one was that he wanted to twist his view of the media, so, sometimes, he would court them and say things like he`s sleeping in a hyperbaric chamber, then we remember that picture of him in there. What was that about?
ELLIOTT: That`s called hype, OK?
SMITH: Why would he --
ELLIOTT: Let me tell you, to become the world`s greatest entertainer, to become the mysterious entertainer, you have to create hype. You have to push and then pull. It`s as simple as that.
SMITH: Damon, you can`t have it both ways. I remember seeing that and I remember thinking, that`s not the Michael Jackson I know. That`s not the Michael Jackson I remember.
ELLIOTT: See, you don`t know Michael.
SMITH: Yes, but here`s the thing. You`re building the hype, but then, you can`t get upset when, all of a sudden, the machine turns on you.
ELLIOTT: Yes, but did he really get upset? Because here`s the thing, until later, until he had to show himself, he never did, OK. It`s like the greatest entertainers in the world, including my mother, have a certain barrier around them, OK? And the minute you step across that barrier and you become, let`s call it, bait, that`s when the sharks start to feed.
SMITH: Your mother, by the way, Dionne Warwick.
SMITH: And the singer in her own right.
NIMMER: Well, I feel like Michael was incredibly talented, but he wasn`t always the best judge character, perhaps. And so, he didn`t judge Gavin Arvizo well enough who`d turned on him and accused him of molestation. He didn`t judge the American public. He didn`t judge the media properly.
ELLIOTT: Well, he didn`t judge anyone.
NIMMER: Good point.
ELLIOTT: Michael was -- he wasn`t -- he wasn`t -- that wasn`t him.
ELLIOTT: Michael was such and as is the family, such -- just so much love and real love. And a lot of times people have a problem with that.
SMITH: So, then, Damon, what are you making of what you`re saying in this trial, so far? You`re saying he didn`t judge anyone, let people in, and he was kind. Is that the way you see him treating Dr. Murray?
ELLIOTT: Absolutely. Listen, like, you know, you go to the doctor, you trust the doctor, right? You hope that the doctor will do what he`s supposed to do with your life in his hands, all of us, every day, whether you go to the dentist, surgeon, you`re at the hands of the doctor.
SMITH: But what about a patient`s responsibility here. Larry, let me ask you about this, because there`s -- I received messages, notes from people who have said yes, but there were drugs in Michael Jackson`s room. Yes, but he engaged this doctor. Yes, but maybe he was involved in some sort of drug interaction. Is there responsibility for him?
NIMMER: Well, my opinion is after studying Michael and doing my documentary, "Michael Jackson: The Untold Story of Neverland," that you just -- hard to say. That he didn`t judge the doctor well ahead of time. He was under so much stress by all the criticisms, the lawsuit, everybody making fun of him, that he was in a physical mess, and it`s kind of understandable.
SMITH: But then Damon, does that validate him taking drugs? Again, I`m just talking about what we`ve seen. And I just want to keep saying this. Every time we talk about Michael Jackson taking drugs, it`s not as if we are in his room. His lifestyle is not supposed to be a part of this trial.
SMITH: But, even today, people were saying why were those bottles in his room as a patient? Wouldn`t you say, hey, I don`t need this?
ELLIOTT: Well, they were in his room because they were prescribed by a doctor. And, second, I think whenever a doctor puts you under, you`re at the mercy of the doctor, period. I mean --
SMITH: So, it`s Dr. Murray`s fault that he was on this medication?
ELLIOTT: No, I`m not saying it`s his fault that he was on this medication. I don`t know who prescribed all the medication. I was not there. What I am saying is whenever you go under, whether for a surgery, look, we all know that the medication probably should not have been in his house. Propofol is used for surgery and used for knocking you out.
I don`t credit anybody for having that use in their house, OK, in their home. However, there are special circumstances for celebrity. We all know that. But you`re at the mercy of a doctor, you`re simply at the mercy of a doctor. And what we`re losing sight of is that the doctor was there on a salary to take care of Michael Jackson, right? The doctor put Michael Jackson under. Michael did not wake up.
SMITH: So, you`re saying even if Michael Jackson was taking these drugs, even if he was involved in this, the doctor, if I get you correctly, the doctor was the one who should have been his safety valve, the one who should have been saying stop?
ELLIOTT: Isn`t that what you go to doctor for?
SMITH: Good point.
ELLIOTT: If you get prescribed medicine, you take what`s written on the prescription. Sometimes, medicine says take with food, right, take with water. And you -- if a doctor prescribes you something, then you`re on your own. You`re taking your medicine according to the prescription. But if a doctor actually gives you the medication, you`re at the mercy of the doctor.
NIMMER: And Michael, there was so much on his mind that the time, all the conscious coming up and everything. He wanted to just feel they have the doctor to trust him and not to think about his health.
SMITH: It`s interesting to think about. We`ve got more coming up from Damon and Larry, but, as we go to break, here`s testimony from Jackson`s security guard. You know, he described the heartbreaking scene when Michael`s kids first see their father unconscious. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FAHEEM MUHAMMED, HEAD OF JACKSON`S SECURITY DETAIL: Paris was on the ground, balled up crying. And Prince was, he was standing there and he was just -- he just had a real shock, you know, just slowly crying-type of look on his face.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: Welcome back. Well, you know, Michael Jackson, he`s the victim in this case, but in years past, he was the defendant. Needless to say, he hired the best of the best for his representation. Former Jackson attorney, Tom Mesereau, talks to Joy Behar. That`s coming up in the next hour, 10:00 p.m. eastern.
All right. So, we`re talking also about what happened today. And we look at this. I want to bring back in Damon, Larry. You know, Damon, let`s talk about the media coverage of Michael. Before we do, I want to just go into something that Michael Jackson said a while back about media coverage, how upset he was with it. Let`s take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: They call me a freak. They call me a homosexual. They call me a child molester. They said I bleached my skin. They made everything to turn the public against me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: No, I have never seen that before. But Damon, this is Michael saying, I have been misunderstood for so long. People are trying to turn the public against me. Yet, this is a man who says all the time, I`m just trying to help people let people in. How was his relationship with the media, because again, you talk about the hype machine? So, I`m starting to think that he feels like he needed the media to push himself forward, but at the same time, resented the media at the same time.
ELLIOTT: Well, the word celebrity means you do need the media. Unfortunately, there are two sides to media. I feel like media, you know, you go through like, you build yourself, you build yourself up, then something happens, and then media just comes crushing in. And unfortunately, for him, you know, he`s so much bigger than life. I`m speaking like he`s still here, because in my heart, he is. And media -- look at what media does nowadays --
SMITH: But did you ever talk to him about this? Did you ever talk to him about this?
ELLIOTT: Not so much. No. It was more creative, you know, creative flow. So, no.
SMITH: You know, I want to talk about one more thing here. The children in this case. there was so much in the testimony today, Larry, about Paris screaming daddy as she saw her father in that room. Murray running downstairs calling for Prince to come in that room. Afterwards, they all get together with (INAUDIBLE). They hugged. They`re praying for their father. The children in this case, how do you think all of this is affecting them?
NIMMER: Well, they seem pretty strong, actually, in their recent public appearances and all. I`m really touched by the fact that the kids are making some public appearances. The fans and others in the public are learning so much more about Michael by seeing the kids.
And so, I think it`s good that the kids are coming forward. It must be really hard on the kids. Katherine Jackson, the mom, seems like she`s doing the fabulous a job raising them and not putting the total -- giving them a little bit of liberty, but still being a mother to them.
SMITH: And Damon, I`ll give you last word. How do you think this family is getting through all of this?
ELLIOTT: They`re just staying very close together, the family, and they`re protecting the kids and they`re trying to live as normal a life as possible under the circumstances.
SMITH: How do you protect the kids, though, because this is a situation where it`s all over the media that they might be seeing this?
ELLIOTT: You let children be children. You let them swim. You let them have barbecues. You let them do everything behind those gates that they`re used to doing. I grew up with a similar lifestyle. Behind those gates, we were normal kids, me and my brother both, but protected from certain elements of the media and certain things that people try to pry. You know, people will do anything. It`s unbelievable. People will do virtually anything to get in.
SMITH: My goodness. Damon, Larry, thank you so much.
ELLIOTT: Thank you.
SMITH: Also, my thanks to Dr. Drew for letting me co-host tonight. He`ll be back tomorrow. For the hour, Joy Behar is coming up next. Have a great night.