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Michael Jackson Death Trial, Day Four
Aired September 30, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go now. The patient, the pulse, and the paramedic. Revealing testimony from a paramedic at the scene of Michael Jackson`s death. And stunning words from patient who felt abandoned by Conrad Murray.
Plus, week one in review. In this trial of the physician, I`m separating fact from fiction. And the body of evidence and body language, what movements say about the man. Let`s get started.
June 25th, 2009, the king of pop is silenced forever. And as the death trial of Michael Jackson concludes its first week, the chaotic details surrounding those final hours are well deafening as witness after witness alleged troubling conduct and possibly even cover up by Jackson`s doctor, Conrad Murray. But the defense is fighting back working meticulously to poke holes in witness testimony. Watch this, we`ll talk.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re only four days into the Conrad Murray trial, but a former lawyer for Michael Jackson says he`s ready for a verdict.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think he should be convicted. I don`t think he intended to kill him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Michael Jackson`s doctor may have been torn between trying to save his famous patient and trying to hide the drugs that killed him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What were the exact words he said when he had the vials in his hand and was reaching them out to you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said put these in a bag.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The defense made a big point. They`re saying he didn`t have the time to clean up the whole area the way he claimed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Robert Russell, past patient of Doctor Conrad Murray.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What was your reaction when Doctor Murray revealed to you that he was going to be Michael Jackson`s personal physician?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Overjoyed.
PINSKY: Today, a former patient of Doctor Murray took the stand and alleges he felt abandoned by Doctor Murray after he suffered a heart attack and lost his doctor. Watch this.
ROBERT RUSSELL, FORMER DOCTOR CONRAD MURRAY`S PATIENT: I had expressed my frustration. Had stated I was at the end of the rope or the end of my rope and I expected answers, and I expected a return call from Doctor Murray, and the establishment of an appointment or meeting or I was going to take or pursue legal action, block him from leaving the country, doing whatever. This was again, about my life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You sound like you were pretty desperate at that point in time.
RUSSELL: At that point I felt desperate, yes.
DEBORAH BRAZIL, PROSECUTOR: Worried about your health?
RUSSELL: Yes. Apologies, your honor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your next question.
BRAZIL: Did you feel abandoned?
RUSSELL: Yes, that would be an accurate statement.
PINSKY: Next on the stand was a paramedic that responded to the 911 call that was finally placed from Jackson`s home. Listen to this exchange he had with Doctor Murray as Jackson lay dead or dying. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD SENNEFF, PARAMEDIC: I asked what his underlying health condition was. He did not respond. I asked again, what his underlying health condition was. He did not respond. And then he I think it was the third time, he said nothing, nothing, he has nothing. And simply that did not add up to me.
BRAZIL: Why is that?
SENNEFF: Doctor in the house, I.V. pole, I.V. hooked up to the patient, it didn`t seem normal. (END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Just as a quick side bar, to me that`s kind of stunning testimony. Because I have sort of review, if you could appreciate that moment, not only is that paramedic seeing things that beg the issue of the patient having other issues, but that`s a complete and total breakdown of the system when the physician does not transfer information to the people that are going to pick up the care of the individual. That does not happen. That does not happen. So that`s a pretty serious indictment.
Joining me to discuss all of this, Mark Eiglarsh, attorney, Ellen Garafalo, criminal defense attorney. She earned an acquittal for the doctor that faced charges in the death of Anna Nicole Smith. Ryan Smith, the host of "IN SESSION" from truTV. Ryan, the latest from the courtroom, what have you got?
RYAN SMITH, HOST, IN SESSION: Big day. I`ll tell you. Well, the patient that you mentioned who started off first, talked about not only the treatment Doctor Murray gave him but he established a time line for the prosecution because Doctor Murray actually called him back at 11:49, this was just minutes before Michael Jackson started passing away, and left him a message.
The prosecution trying to show that Doctor Murray wasn`t focused on Michael Jackson. Then when the EMT took the stand, he talked about Doctor Murray trying to clean up the room, more than paying attention to his patient. Not only that critically here, mentioning that he only gave Michael Jackson Lorazepam instead of all the other drugs that we eventually learned Doctor Murray gave him.
And just one quick side here, the judge ordered a gag order on all the lawyers. This trial Doctor Drew has been spilling out into the media. The judge doesn`t like it. So, he`s telling the lawyers to zip it, don`t talk about anything involving this case to the media.
PINSKY: Ryan, do you think the judge is becoming concerned the jurors are being exposed to some of this?
SMITH: That`s absolutely it, because he didn`t sequester for this jury. The jury will go home this weekend and he doesn`t want them, hearing words from the defense or anyone else talking about the case being influenced. So as a result, he said you say anything in this case, you could be held in contempt of court. That could mean anything from fines to jail time for anybody who says anything about the case.
PINSKY: Would Michael Jackson still be alive if Doctor Murray hadn`t had such delay in calling 911? Here is something to think about.
(BEGIN VIDE CLIP)
BRAZIL: Did you ask Doctor Murray how long the patient had been in this condition or how long the patient had been down?
SENNEFF: I did ask him that.
BRAZIL: What did Doctor Murray say in response to that question?
SENNEFF: It just happened right when I called you.
BRAZIL: And in your mind, what did that mean in terms of timing of this patient`s present condition?
SENNEFF: It meant to me that this was a patient that was somebody we had a really good chance of saving.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Mark, those are pretty - those are almost sad things to hear, but it certainly must be awful for the defense.
MARK EIGLARSCH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I would agree. Add that to the list, the long list that continues to grow of the things that really equal gross negligence. You know, if he had actually turned to this paramedic and said let me start of by saying I gave Michael Jackson propofol, I think this fire rescue guy would have looked at him and said wait, wait, wait. I thought you were a medical doctor. You mean you`re like one of those doctors of philosophy or something? You did what now? I`m sorry, what?
Keep in mind please, add it to the list. But keep in mind, the defense you know they`re going to have experts who I think will leave the rainbow wigs and their red noses and flowers shooting water at home and they are going to say I give propofol in a house setting I suppose. So, let`s not immediately think that what is clearly gross negligence will be found the same by the jurors.
PINSKY: Do you think the jurors, there`s any possibility that they would - only there`s one juror, right, that somebody out there will have a doubt by whatever the defense has in store for us?
EIGLARSH: It is one juror to hang up the jury. They will have to retry this thing. If it is only one juror that somehow thinks this is appropriate behavior, they will get a new jury. Now, if there`s you know half and half, maybe they work something out. But I just I can`t imagine that anyone would find even today, we learned that he used a pulse monitoring device that didn`t have an alarm on it. A guy who is out in the hall way making calls for 46 minutes at a time should have an alarm on a pulse device. I am just saying couple hundred dollars more that could have made the difference.
PINSKY: It`s funny, Mark. I am just saying, I sort of I shake my head often with this testimony this week, just I agree with you 100 percent. Now, some of the startling testimony today came from Alberto Alvarez, Jackson`s head of logistics. He claimed Conrad Murray asked him to remove vials and other evidence from the bedroom. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED CHERNOFF, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: What were the exact words he said when he had the vials in his hand and was reaching them out to you?
ALBERTO ALVAREZ, MICHAEL JACKSON`S LOGISTICS DIRECTOR: He said put these in a bag.
CHERNOFF: Did you grab a bag?
ALVAREZ: I did. I looked towards my right, and there was a plastic bag sitting on top of a chair. So I proceeded to get the bag and I opened it and he placed the vials in the bag.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: But Murray`s defense challenged Alvarez, showing hospital surveillance tape of Alvarez in a room with police officers and questioned why he never told them about Doctor Murray`s request that he hide the evidence. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHERNOFF: During this period of time you never once told any of these police officers about hiding of evidence or putting away vials or I.V. bags?
ALVAREZ: No, sir, I didn`t.
CHERNOFF: In fact, at some point in time here at the hospital you were actually interviewed by a police officer.
ALVAREZ: That is correct, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So Ellyn, Alvarez, that`s an interesting point they make, is it not? Did he forget to tell the police? Or is he trying to protect Murray or trying to protect Michael Jackson from scrutiny.
ELLYN GARAFALO, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. I think people like Michael Jackson have a group around them whose job is they`re there to protect the celebrity. They`re brain washed to some extent. It`s engraved in them. I also - so I think that was part of it. Protect Michael Jackson, protect his privacy. I also think that there was probably panic and I don`t think people remember with precise, with precision everything that happens at each second when you`re in a circumstance under that kind of pressure.
PINSKY: When there`s an overwhelming and terribly disturbing circumstance that makes sense.
GARAFALO: Exactly. And a guy like this had to have been absolutely frantic and probably isn`t remembering things with perfect accuracy.
PINSKY: And as no one ever does, even in good circumstances.
PINSKY: But Ellyn, I want to ask you one last thing, you and I were talking before the show started, about how can you defend this? Mark talked about guys with the flowers and water shooting out. But I imagine there is some line of defense you think they ought to follow?
GARAFALO: Yes. Well, there are really two defenses, two small windows because some of this testimony has been terrible. The first is forcibility, because in order to show recklessness, criminal recklessness, they have to show Murray could have foreseen this result. On paper, you say you`re using this terribly dangerous drug in an unregulated circumstance you should be able to see.
PINSKY: You should know that`s reckless.
GARAFALO: Should know. However, Murray had been using it apparently for months in exactly the same way he did that night. If rumor is correct, Michael Jackson had been treated with propofol for years for a sleep disorder. So why would Murray suspect that on this night using the same drugs in the same manner the result would be different, and as tragic as it turned out to be.
PINSKY: That`s one line of defense. You said there were two.
GARAFALO: Second line of defense is a medical defense. And hard as it is, they will get an expert, they will have somebody say look, its judgment. This medication might have killed you or me instantly, but you have to look at this patient, his history of use.
PINSKY: His tolerance, his metabolism.
GARAFALO: All of it, his medical condition. And even if Murray was wrong, his judgment was terrible, he was a terrible doctor, it is not criminal, it is negligence.
PINSKY: Ryan, last word to you before we go.
SMITH: Yes, Drew, the defense, they showed a little of what they plan on doing in this case. You mention poking holes because Alberto Alvarez talked about how when EMTs arrived, Michael was on the floor. The EMT testified about how Michael Jackson was partially on the bed when he got there, and the defense kept emphasizing that point over and over again to make the point that even though Alvarez said he was sure about his story, maybe he wasn`t so sure.
PINSKY: Interesting. Now what is being said on the stand is not the only thing jurors are paying attention to.
Coming up, we`re going to explore what else might be influencing the verdict in this trial.
PINSKY: Welcome back. Now, as we explore the intricacies of the trial, I want to talk about one aspect that could influence the verdict. The psychological aspect of what goes on in the courtroom. Day after day, Conrad Murray sits in the courtroom facing the jurors and they are not only watching him but they`re watching Michael`s family members as well. And it could affect their decision as to whether or not he is guilty.
Re-joining me to discuss this is Ryan smith, host of "IN SESSION" on truTV and body language expert and author of "who are you choosing to be", Mark Edgar Stevens.
Mark, Conrad Murray had one moment that he broke down and cried, but for the most part, he has been stone faced through the trial. How do you think the jury will read this?
MARK EDGAR STEPHENS, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT, AUTHOR: Yes. There is something that we`re saying with Conrad Murray. We`re looking for micro expressions because he is showing very little. He shows one of seven human emotions. And what we`re seeing mostly of him is sadness. So, at the moment he broke down and cried he is showing there is sadness. The question becomes is it sadness for what happened to Michael or what`s happened in his life.
PINSKY: The despair of the situation. And you said mostly stone faced. Do you think that is something his legal team is encouraging him to be?
STEPHENS: I don`t know, but it could be a good strategy, depending how the jurors are reading that because if we`re very emotional, we want to see emotion from someone. But if we`re more of a thinking person, we want to believe him taking notes is showing that he`s a very together, organized person, well thought out.
PINSKY: Cerebral. OK. The one thing that Conrad Murray seems to be pretty, as you mentioned Mark, pretty serious about is taking those notes is the fact that he is there taking notes, looking at things very seriously, sending specific messages to the jurors. Do the emotional jurors get the same message as the most serious type of jurors?
STEPHENS: No. This is a very interesting thing. The jurors are getting something different depending on what they`re projecting. Because of course, we do that when looking at someone is doing. If I am an emotional person, I want to connect with that person on an emotional level. If you don`t show me anything, I can`t connect with you.
However, if I am cerebral person and believe you`re somehow a very thinking person, then I want to believe you couldn`t possibly have done something as bad as what we`re taking a look at here.
PINSKY: You would think for the most part the jury would expect the doctor to be a thinking person and sort of portraying the more doctor-ly behavior?
STEPHENS: We do expect that. We expected the doctor of course, you know, we expect that the doctor is very smart and the doctor knows what it is he is talking about. In this particular case, I don`t know that that`s helping him because we will be looking at members of the family there and they`re showing emotion.
PINSKY: That`s what I would think. I would think one of the issues here is what`s being attacked is his compassion and his inability to sort of do what`s right for an individual, talking about him abandoning previous patients. I think they want more emotion.
STEPHENS: They want more emotion because they will feel more for him. Because you can bet they`re looking out there at the Jackson family and they are feeling something from them.
PINSKY: For sure. For sure. Now Ryan, you have been an entertainment attorney. If this is your client dealing with one of the most famous families in the world, how would you advise him to behave in the courtroom?
SMITH: Well, I think the one thing you have to say is, you got tell him to be himself. You don`t want him to be somebody that he`s not. I think a lot of people will read that sometimes and we talk about that a lot as lawyers and we say people just see that as fake. And you don`t want them to think you`re disingenuous, especially when you`re being accused of doing something that was wrong.
Now, with Doctor Murray, it`s interesting, he is stoic and I totally agree with your guest. It is almost as if you want to get the affect from him that he is a doctor and projects confidence, but then there`s a line, not too much confidence, not overconfidence, you want him to be contrite. I think the tough thing is the family is in the courtroom. If he got too emotional, it might play into the franticness of what people are describing here. Remember, all the witnesses are saying, "Doctor Murray was out of control, he`s on frantic, he didn`t know what to do."
If he is crying in the courtroom, a lot of jurors may start thinking well; this seems to me to be the kind of guy that wouldn`t have control over a situation like this. Maybe he did dip under the standard of care.
PINSKY: He also addressed his patients in a you tube video after his arrest to proclaim his innocence. Look at this video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DOCTOR CONRAD MURRAY, SUSPECT IN MICHAEL JACKSON`S DEATH: Please don`t worry. As long as I keep God in my heart and you in my life, I will be fine. I have done all I could do. I told the truth, and I have faith the truth will prevail. God bless you. And thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Do you see anything in that video?
STEPHENS: Yes. We`re seeing very obvious sincerity. There`s a sense of truth coming from him. Again, the truth though has, is coming from a sense of does he believe this. I believe he believes what he`s saying, but he`s doing something very interesting. He narrows down with his eyes as if he`s making a point and he`s trying to convince people everything is going to be all right, everything is going to be OK. Again, the question comes up is it because he wants other people to believe it or he wants to believe it himself?
PINSKY: Ryan, that`s an interesting point Mark is making. I do believe he believes it, but to me it speaks to his negligence or at least his lack of ability to understand the situation he got himself in.
PINSKY: Yes, It does. At least for me it does. And you know as I look at that video, I have seen that video a number of times. Every time I see it, I wonder if I was his lawyer, I would never have told him to do that for a couple of different reasons. I definitely understand what the body language expert is saying, but you know he is reading something that`s prepared. To me as a lawyer, that`s never sincere. Even though he may mean the words, why give a prepared statement. The second thing is you`re on trial. So, you have to kind of let it go and not say anything to the public.
PINSKY: Now, thanks, Ryan. Thank you Mark.
And get full 24 hour coverage at hlnTV.com/MichaelJackson.
Ahead, why did Michael cling to the idea he would never want to grow up. We go inside the walls of the Neverland Ranch. But first, I am going to take your comments, questions calls on the Murray trial. So, stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I definitely wanted to show up as one of the fans who was a supporter of not just him as a musician, a fan of the musician, but of him as an entire person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Fans continue to gather outside the courtroom in downtown Los Angeles, expressing their support for their beloved Michael Jackson.
Now, we posted this poll question on our Web site. It asks, do you think money was ultimately the motivation for Doctor Conrad Murray giving Michael Jackson whatever he wanted?
And here are the results. Eighty percent of you said yes. Eleven percent said no. And nine percent of you are still unsure.
Now, interesting, your comments and questions continue to pour in. So - but before we do, I`m just thinking about something I heard Tom Sizemore say on Joy Behar show a few nights ago. He felt the money was to pay someone to do or really to break the law. Interesting.
Let`s get to the phones. Jennifer in Florida, go ahead.
JENNIFER, CALLER, FLORIDA: Hi, Doctor Drew. I wanted to say that I think Michael Jackson made Doctor Murray a puppet and paid him well, but at the end of the day, it was Michael Jackson that ultimately did himself in of years of abuse, which does take a toll on the body. I would like to know how you truly determine what actually killed him when there were so many other drugs in his body.
PINSKY: Well, couple of thoughts you raise there. One was you`re doing something I am reluctant to do, you`re blaming the patient, and that`s always to me problematic. My profession did not serve the patient very well in this case, let`s just face that. Secondly, how do you determine what killed him, that`s what pathologists try to do determine that kind of thing. And I think what we understand what happened is that sufficient medicines were given that caused suppression of respiration, somebody to not breathe and eventually did him in.
Amy in Oregon. Go ahead.
AMY, CALLER, OREGON: Hi, Doctor Drew.
PINSKY: Hi Amy.
AMY: I learned after Michael Jackson`s death a lot of the medications he was on I had or have taken. I understand how addiction can happen. For example, the other day I saw a bottle of vicodin. I said to myself oh, I could use that but a split second later, I said why do I need it? So, I wanted to say addiction can easily sneak up on you.
PINSKY: It does sneak up on you, especially again when we as physicians prescribe things to you, you think they`re in our best interest and over time something happens. And we even perhaps miss this happening to you, that`s the problem and that`s addiction. And now, you got something you got to take care of.
Andrea on facebook writes. What did you mean when you said "it is common for addicts to feel more pain?"
PINSKY: What I was talking about was opiate like pain medication addicts. They developed something called Hyperalagecium (ph) where the addiction and pain perception gets all woven together. It is kind of complicated. Only have a few seconds.
But pain has two components, an affective charge meaning that the feeling and meaning of the pain, and the somatic component which you feel in your body. For addicts, the affect part becomes intensified until pain becomes a lot more intense.
Ann asked `can you comment why doctors didn`t refer Michael to a sleep disorder clinic or specialist."
And to this day I am shaking my head. And that is the big question. Why didn`t he get a referral for expert care? It is hard to understand.
There`s one possible route of a team that should have been assembled.
Next, who was the real Michael Jackson? Troubled man damaged by trauma in his childhood, or was it all one big performance? I`ll give you my take. I have a panel coming up. We`re going to dig into that issue. Don`t miss it. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Michael Jackson, a mysterious death, an eccentric life. We all remember the strange behavior, the awkward marriages, the oxygen chamber, bubbles the chimp. Was Jackson a troubled soul scarred in youth or a savvy performer playing the media? I study the odd behavior of celebrities for quite some time, and I`m breaking it down, explaining what Jackson`s past means for Murray`s future. Will it sway the jury?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): Tonight, the plastic surgery, the oxygen chambers, the chimp. Michael Jackson was not only one of the greatest pop stars of our time, but he was a character. We never knew what Michael was going to do next or why. Even in death, a cloud of mystery surrounds Michael.
A strange circumstance, the bizarre use of hospital anesthetic. Now, over the years, Michael`s behavior earned him a very nasty nickname. I`ll use it just so everyone knows what it is. It`s Jacko the Whacko. They, particularly over cross the pond there. I will not use that again. That is not my words. So, please, I`m using it just as point of fact. At this point, like in the German TV video, he even caused people to question the safety of his children.
Now, tonight, who was the real Michael Jackson? Was he a troubled man damned by trauma in his childhood or as some friends have told us, this is all one big performance. I`m going to give you my take away as we push through this.
Plus, will Michael`s strange issues, personality quirks influence the jury in the Conrad Murray case. Straight to my guests, I`ve got my "Loveline" co-host Michael Catherwood. He is here in the studio. And Michael`s long-time friend, not Michael Catherwood, Michael Jackson`s long- time friend, a recording artist, Damon Elliott. He`s here in the studio.
And host of "Issues" on HLN, Jane Velez-Mitchell. Jane, do you think the bizarre past will affect the present jury?
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, HLN`S "ISSUES": Well, they`re trying to keep that out, Dr. Drew. They want to focus on exactly what Conrad Murray did or did not do, vis-a-vis Michael Jackson in the hours leading up to his death, and then, a couple of hours after. That`s where the judge has set the boundaries. But of course, in this multimedia world, things leech in.
And that`s one of the reasons why the judge is cracking down and issuing a gag order in this case. The whole world knows Michael Jackson. He had fans from Germany and Spain and Russia here outside court. So, everybody has a taste of the eccentricity. Everybody has a taste and knows a little bit about all the wild things Michael Jackson is associated with.
The question is will the jurors be focused on that or will they be focused on the evidence at hand?
PINSKY: Now, Damon, seemed like the Europeans were, particularly, I don`t know, consumed with his behavior, and they seem to be very -- have been very tough on him. As you saw alongside Jane Velez-Mitchell there, the footage of him with the baby, with the blanket over his face and dangling him, that was a particularly bad moment for Michael, it seemed like.
Because I tell you what, the one thing everyone around him was told me, he was a really good parent.
DAMON ELLIOTT, FAMILY FRIEND OF MICHAEL JACKSON: Great parent.
PINSKY: Everyone told me. But that, for those of us that didn`t know that, watching that was one of the more frightening, frightening moments to watch. What was he doing?
ELLIOTT: You know what, honestly, I think he, you know, the adrenaline of fans, and when it`s Michael Jackson, it`s the world of fans, like you feel that rush, and I think he -- honestly, I think he had a moment where he was like, I want to show them my baby, and I`m going to -- I got my baby. Michael was strong, you know? And I don`t know --
PINSKY: We all make mistakes as parents. I`m not sure I`d make that one. Michael, disagree, agree?
MIKE CATHERWOOD, CO HOST, LOVELINE: Well, I mean, that`s a German video clip. And I`m always just relieved whenever there`s German video that doesn`t involve leather and feces. So, let`s just --
PINSKY: Thank you, Michael, for bringing it to that.
PINSKY: And gentlemen, let`s stay on the point here. The first thing people think about when they think of Michael, of course, is the change in his face over time. Now, look at this. It`s kind of astonishing how much his apparent change over time. He opened up to Oprah Winfrey live inside the Neverland Valley Ranch, and that`s -- this footage is old, so the quality is not so good, but take a look at this old footage from Oprah.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OPRAH WINFREY, HOST: You had your nose done, obviously.
MICHAEL JACKSON, ENTERTAINER: Yes, so did a lot of people that I know.
WINFREY: And so, when you hear all these things about you, and there have been more than we --
JACKSON: Never had my cheek bones done, never had my eyes done, never had all that my lips done and all this stuff. They just go too far, I mean, crazy. But this is something that happens like every day with other people.
WINFREY: Are you pleased now with the way you --
JACKSON: I`m never pleased with anything. I`m a perfectionist.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, it used to trouble me when I would see those massive changes in his facial appearances, and all the people around him would say, oh, he never had a plastic surgery, and of course, that was just lying flat out. And my concern is as I saw that, even now looking back, there`s something called body dysmorphia.
A lot of people don`t realize most people with body dysmorphia have fixations on their face and they go to change and perfect. Did anybody ever have concerns about that or address that with him?
ELLIOTT: No. No. I never was concerned about his face or --
PINSKY: The fact he saw plastic surgeons all over the world, though. I mean, that`s --
ELLIOTT: You know, again, in front of the camera, in front of the spotlight all the time, he wanted to be perfect. Michael, when he would move, it was calculated. His finger, everything he did was so calculated. And that`s why he is the greatest entertainer ever.
So, yes, that comes with wanting to be perfect, wanting to, you know, he idolized Diana Ross. She`s the most beautiful being to him and not saying he wanted to be her, but you know, there`s certain looks that come along with it.
CATHERWOOD: You`re talking about a guy who has been at the forefront of the media since he was very, very young, and he`s always been incredibly conscious of his appearance. And I wonder being that conscious of your appearance and being that obsessed with it, like Damon said, this was a guy who thought about everything, his dance moves, his wardrobe, his hair, his makeup, and what not. And I think becoming that consumed with it, if it didn`t create this psychosis --
PINSKY: So, anybody who is a perfectionist in the spotlight that he was in, who was trying to be good as they could be might head down that path.
ELLIOTT: Only one Michael Jackson. So scrutinized.
ELLIOTT: Get out of bed. What if the paparazzi catch a picture of you not looking perfect. Everything including the kids, that`s why he protected them as well. Everything is so scrutinized.
PINSKY: Jane Velez-Mitchell, I want to talk about another topic here that creates a lot of consternation amongst his fans. He -- I have a recording of him saying I`m an addict. He basically talks about his addiction, that he went for treatment. He has long history of using painkillers. I mean, he -- and he was treated for addiction, OK? And you can`t be treated for addiction without having a diagnosis of addiction.
That facility will lose its license if they admit somebody that`s not an addict. I mean, they can evaluate them and discharge them, but to fully treat somebody and they identify as an addict, that is somebody now with a lifelong condition. I think people, particularly, his fans get very touchy about this, because we`re just talking about a brain disorder like any other brain condition like depression, or bipolar, any other brain condition.
And why do you think people are so touch about this. We`re not talking about a down and out addict in the street. We`re talking about somebody with this biological predilection who then was ill-served by doctors, wouldn`t you agree?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: They`re all, yes, absolutely, Dr. Drew. People are very upset who are fans of Michael Jackson. The family of Michael Jackson doesn`t want to focus on the issue of his prior problems with drugs because they feel that`s putting Michael Jackson on trial. And during this case, they want the defendant to be Dr. Conrad Murray, and they don`t want a deceased person who cannot speak for themselves to be put on trial, and I 100 wholeheartedly agree with them on that.
But, there is this misconception about addiction. Oh, that happened back in the 1990s. He spoke 1993 about having a drug problem and getting treatment for it, that`s old news. Once an addict, always an addict. And I think this is really an opportunity while I have tremendous compassion for the family and I know they`re going through hell and reliving all this, this is an opportunity to show America that addiction isn`t a dirty word, it is a disease.
I`m a recovering alcoholic. I say it freely and often. It`s a condition. It`s not a character defect. It`s not a sign of lack of will power or being a bad person. And so, I think there`s an opportunity here to just let people know.
PINSKY: Absolutely. I think you`re right. Michael, you may tell your story. I hope you`ll permit me. And then again, Michael is a recovering addict as well. Again, it`s not the addict`s fault that a physician doesn`t understand how to manage that condition.
CATHERWOOD: No. And as I was driving over here, I was thinking about Michael Jackson`s situation. And you know, I have to, as an addict, and I don`t want to speak for all addicts and alcoholics in the world, but you definitely empathize with other addicts much more, but you also put a different level of accountability on people when you`ve gone through it yourself.
PINSKY: But when physicians are telling you, just trust me, I know what I`m doing.
PINSKY: And somebody`s in their disease.
CATHERWOOD: That`s exactly what I was going to touch on, Dr. Drew, is that you have to imagine not only is he insulated with yes men, he`s insulated with professionals who are --
PINSKY: Who he trusted.
CATHERWOOD: Enable him on a level that most of us addicts and alcoholics out there could never even imagine when you`re Michael Jackson, because he is already not only separated himself from the rest of society by becoming so famous, he`s gone out of his way to separate himself from the rest of society by being so eccentric.
PINSKY: Damon, you`re shaking your head vigorously.
ELLIOTT: And having professional yes men is way scarier than having yes men that you, you know, might just be like there for your money.
PINSKY: That is a point well taken.
CATHERWOOD: And talking about with tremendous resources.
PINSKY: Further adulterate the profession --
CATHERWOOD: I can honestly say if I wouldn`t have gotten sober so young, if I didn`t run out of money and people to enable me, you know?
PINSKY: Yes. Well, gentlemen, good panel. Appreciate it.
Coming up, Michael gets married and has kids. Plus, inside the walls of Neverland ranch. Why did Michael insist he just never wanted to grow up? Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: They called me a freak. They called me a homosexual. They called me a child molester. They said I tried to bleach my skin. They made everything to turn the public against me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: I was kind of just calm and (INAUDIBLE). Like I said before, I`m just the source through which they come, and it`s a beautiful thing. It`s very spiritual. It`s like standing under the tree and letting a leaf fall and trying to catch it.
It`s that beautiful. And when I do it, it comes into my head, I could be walking along, you know, on a road or I could be sitting on a bench at Disneyland or something eating peanuts. And there it is, it`s in my head.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Indisputably a musical genius, but many times, Michael`s talents became overshadowed by eccentricities, and then, from his fantasy land of state, he dubbed Neverland Ranch. There were exotic pets, changing pictures. Michael was always surprising and became the focus of scrutiny, let`s just say.
I`m back with my "Loveline" co-host, Michael Catherwood and Michael Jackson`s long-time friend, Damon Elliott, as well as host of "Issues" on HLN, Jane Velez-Mitchell. Damon, first, I want to talk about the surgical mask. That rumors flew -- there it is -- that Michael`s nose had fallen off. That was a goofy rumor, why did he actually wear that, do you know?
ELLIOTT: No. I don`t know.
PINSKY: Was he a germaphobe? Was he -- I wonder if that was the issue.
ELLIOTT: I don`t think so. No, no, no. I don`t think he was -- I think, you know, part of -- maybe part of the look. You know what, I think he wore it because he was very smart, and it drew a lot of attention. And, maybe, his makeup wasn`t perfect that day.
PINSKY: Or maybe, sort of, really, Mike comes in so dapper, and --
CATHERWOOD: No, it`s funny to say, because, obviously, I mean, I certainly -- I`m the first guy to admit that I dress a certain way, and I present myself in a certain way -- it`s a representation about how I feel about myself emotionally. And certainly, Michael Jackson would be the first guy to admit that he had certain kind of inadequacies or even felt insecure at times.
And look, it`s a credit to Michael Jackson his eccentric behavior in every facet, whether be his wardrobe or his behavior with the pets and what not. Well before this media ubiquity with our celebrity obsession and this TMZ nation that we live with now and the internet, Michael Jackson was always at the forefront of headlines, whether it be for his music or not.
And he was one of those guys much like Elvis or Madonna, or now, Britney Spears, that even if they have music that -- people take an extra level of attention when it came to Michael Jackson, and a lot of it, I think, had to do with his ability to always keep us guessing.
PINSKY: Before you answer that, Damon, I want to ask you this. Is that a cognitive premeditated strategy or is that just a function of the genius that then attracts our attention?
ELLIOTT: I think both. I think, initially, Michael was smart enough to think out, you know, hey, if I pull back, you`re going to want more. The one thing that made him really special and made him bigger than life is that you could not touch him. You couldn`t get to him. Every other celebrity out there, you could probably get an interview with, you could probably see all of them.
He hid very well. And maybe yes, later on in life, he had to go a little more extreme to keep his celebrity because with shows like TMZ and other things, other people who maybe don`t deserve to be chased so much or be called a legend --
ELLIOTT: So, maybe he pushed the envelope a little bit. There`s nothing wrong with that.
PINSKY: Nothing wrong with any of this. Now, as he began to look different. Rumors swirled that Michael was sleeping in a hyperbaric chamber. This photo made the rounds, but Damon, you say that was just photo op. Another one of Michael`s sort of --
ELLIOTT: No, I jumped in a hyperbaric chamber before.
PINSKY: That one?
ELLIOTT: No, not that one, but at Jermaine`s house.
PINSKY: So the Jacksons had hyperbaric chambers.
ELLIOTT: They had one. But you know what, Dr. Drew, if you go to the mall right now, they have these things called oxygen that you put in your nose.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
ELLIOTT: What`s the difference? He just had more money. He had it first.
PINSKY: And there are reasons, there are treatments, healing treatments and stuff to put under high pressure oxygen. What? You`re smirking.
CATHERWOOD: He has a hyperbaric chamber, so what? People with ridiculous amounts of money buy ridiculous stuff a lot of time, especially if they didn`t make it -- if the gradient too very rich didn`t come slowly.
ELLIOTT: I bought tire engine once (ph). It`s really cool.
CATHERWOOD: How many times do we watch MTV --
PINSKY: Now, that`s weird.
CATHERWOOD: How many times do you watch MTV cribs and the guy had like a gold plated shark tank --
PINSKY: Now, does the chimp -- I have kids in college. The chimp bubbles --
PINSKY: Slept in a crib in Jackson`s bedroom, use his toilet, the singer`s toilet, and they candy it at the Neverland movie theater. That`s when -- Jane Velez-Mitchell, that`s when people started kind of mocking him in the European media, particularly, took (INAUDIBLE) after him. Do you think that was fair that people were so cruel to Michael Jackson?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen, I think that for a long time, all of this eccentricity worked for him, and he cultivated it as your guest had been saying. It was a strategy on his part, sort of legend making, myth making, and he was having fun with it. The razzle dazzle of showbiz, and I`m going to cultivate this image and play with it. And then, it got away from him.
And he was no longer capable of controlling the reigns. He was no longer his own puppet master. And that`s when it started to come back and haunt him, where it went from eccentric to bizarre.
And, unfortunately then, you add on of the allegations in the 1990s of child molestation, and remember, he was acquitted on all counts, but there was that first case which he settled out of court, and then, the second case was went to trial, and some of those little eccentric attitudes and behaviors started to look to some people a little sinister.
So, it was a case of something that started as sort of innocent and playful, and then, crossed the line into something that, unfortunately, came back to haunt him.
PINSKY: I think you`re right. I think you`re right, Jane. And then, there was the issue of sort of never wanting to grow up and the sort of fantasy of being Peter Pan that we heard about in the documentary, and then, the childlike quality. Jane? What`s that, Jane?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I have to say that having done a lot of therapy myself, what I think is so sad about this is that he had just gotten the therapy he needed, but talking one-on-one with one person. I mean, they used to tease him about having a big nose. So, it doesn`t take a (INAUDIBLE) to figure out why he was narrowing his nose.
He was teased by people about having a big nose, and that was something that has been written about it him in biographies about him. So, he really just needed some help, a psychological help.
PINSKY: Jane, I could not agree more. Gentlemen, do you have a reaction to that?
ELLIOTT: She`s absolutely right. That`s all I can say.
CATHERWOOD: I`m just still hurt that the European media is making a mockery of Michael Jackson. Listen here Euro media, layoff our good red white and blue entertainer. So, he was a little wacky, the only eccentric Europeans that you ever become obsessed with are wacky dictators who end up dying drunk and alone. So, leave Wacko Jacko out of it.
ELLIOTT: Tell me how (ph) you feel, brother.
CATHERWOOD: That`s right.
PINSKY: Thank you, gentleman. Thank you, Jane.
PINSKY: Next, they wake up at 3:00 a.m. wait in long lines and endure the Southern California heat. We speak to one of my jurors and find out one out of two is still so enthralled by the King of Pop.
PINSKY: At the top of the hour, Joy Behar`s special guest is Jermaine Jackson who plans to shed some light on his brother`s alleged drug dependency. Stay tuned for Joy, should be up in just a few minutes.
All right now. Outside the courtroom this week, we saw Michael Jackson fans from all over the world. There they are. Look at that. Jackson family also turned out in style. This morning, it felt like the red carpet at the academy awards or the Emmys or something. Journalists found themselves giving color commentary on shoes and clothes and cars. Look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: La Toya going in. She just left a Bentley, a very, very beautiful car. She`s dressed to the nines. Walking into court. This looks like a fashion show. She`s got long gloves on that cover her elbows.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, I think everyone knows I love Jane Velez-Mitchell. She`s one of our best hosts, but there she is playing Joan on the red carpet. Now, aside from that. We were just poking fun, of course. Now, I`m always interesting in looking at human behavior, which is why I enjoyed towards end of our program, we develop what we call our Dr. Drew jurors.
These are people that wake up early and wait in lines in the heat, but I ask why. Kiki Stafford, rather, is a mother of two. Her husband does not understand her worship of Michael Jackson, but Kiki was at the courthouse today. Kiki, as you know, I told you I`m fascinated by how Michael affected people. How did he change your life?
KIKI STAFFORD, MOM OF TWO, WORSHIPS MICHAEL JACKSON: You know, I`ve been a fan since I can remember. I`m only about five years older than he was. And, I was always touched, moved, and inspired by his music, but that`s about all it was. And then, with his unexpected, shocking, and sudden passing, it had a profound effect on me that I was not expecting. And really, the more I learned about him, the legacy of his message, I really started to listen to his lyrics.
PINSKY: Let`s go over there. What is the message that spoke to you?
STAFFORD: He was about healing this world. People treating each other with love and kindness, being peaceful, taking care of our planet, taking care of our children, and how can that not be good? I`ve really taken it in because I was so -- his death was so unexpected and shocking to me.
PINSKY: Well, what`s interesting is it sounds like a similar message to even great religious leaders.
PINSKY: And the people that seem to be touched with him that I`ve come in contact with have that kind of -- I don`t know -- energy and emotionality that they attached to him. It`s more than just a pop star to you guys.
STAFFORD: Yes. It is. And I`ve never been a very religious person, but I feel like I have a deeper understanding now of what - how people are moved and inspired.
PINSKY: Do your kids think it`s funny?
STAFFORD: Well, my little one is only two, and she walks around the house all the time saying beat it, beat it, beat it. And then, my other one is almost six, and she --
PINSKY: They`re too young to think about this.
STAFFORD: They`re too young, but you know, my six-year-old, she got to meet Randy at Forest Lawn last year, and as soon as she found out he was Michael`s brother, she went up to him and hugged his leg, and looked up at him.
PINSKY: Maybe kids do tap into that transcending quality that he seemed to have. Thank you, Kiki. I appreciate it.
STAFFORD: Oh, you`re so welcome. Thank you.
PINSKY: You`d be down there every day? You`re going down there regularly?
STAFFORD: I have two little kids. I`ll get down as much as I can.
PINSKY: We`ll look for you down there.
Now, we have discussed Michael`s peculiar behavior, the sleeplessness, the medication, the real point here that I want to make is that these were all signs of a human in distress. He needed help. My peers made things worse. No one ever seemingly referred him for proper treatment at no point that anyone get a team around him.
We had -- he deserved good care, instead he got fractured substandard care from sort of sub specialist, you know, dermatologists, plastic surgeons, and dentists. None of whom are equipped or trained to deal with what he needed. Michael Jackson is the one that was suffering. Michael Jackson is the one that is now dead, and it makes me very sad that it`s my profession that contributed to the demise of this pop star. Good night.