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Paramedics Say Murray Never Told Them About Propofol; Never-Before- Seen Casey Anthony Jailhouse Video Released

Aired September 30, 2011 - 19:00   ET


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Welcome to ISSUES. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell. We are all over the Michael Jackson death trial. On the stand, the emergency room doctor, Dr. Richelle Cooper, who has just dropped a bombshell, saying that Dr. Murray told her that he witnessed the arrest, which would be the moment that Michael Jackson became unresponsive. That`s different from what the defense is now contending. Let`s listen in.

DR. RICHELLE COOPER, EMERGENCY ROOM DOCTOR: We instituted CPR. And then we proceed to give medications in an attempt to resuscitate Mr. Jackson.

WALGREN: OK. So, the endotracheal tube, how were you able to confirm that that was correctly placed?

COOPER: By direct visualization.

WALGREN: OK. And what is it that you would see?

COOPER: You would put a blade. It`s sort of -- it`s called the endoscope blade -- and you`d directly look to see that the endotracheal tube is actually going through the vocal chords into the trachea.

WALGREN: OK. And that`s what you were able to confirm? Is that yes?

COOPER: That`s correct.

WALGREN: And did you utilize an ultrasound at that point?

COOPER: We did earlier on use an ultrasound to examine the heart.

WALGREN: OK. And can you explain that device and what the purpose of that was?

COOPER: In trauma, we`ll frequently perform limited ultrasound. The most common reason people think of an ultrasound is when you`re doing sort of prenatal care, looking at a baby. It`s a device that is used by cardio.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m having a little trouble hearing.

COOPER: Yes. I think most people, lay, would consider an ultrasound as what we look at when we`re looking at a baby. It`s different than an X- ray. It gives us information about the chambers of the heart. Cardiologists perform an echo. They do echo which is a type of ultrasound. It`s much more detailed than the limited ultrasound that we perform in the emergency department.

WALGREN: OK. Looking at what was marked people`s 47, may we dim the lights please, your honor? Doctor, is this the actual trauma bay where you worked on Michael Jackson?


WALGREN: I`m going to hand you this. You have one there. Could you use the pointer and if you could just...

COOPER: How do I -- turn it on? Is it on? There we go. OK.

WALGREN: Let`s start to the left most part of the photograph. This appears to be a computer screen, and is that a keyboard?

COOPER: That is a computer screen.

WALGREN: OK, and what is that?

COOPER: That is one of our computers that has -- we have an electronic tracking system and computerized order entry. And the system is loaded on that computer. In addition, it has Web access and that we can access medical records while we`re in the chest cessation (ph) suite if we need to.


COOPER: And then let me switch from people`s 47 to people`s 48. Looking closer to the corner of the room there, first of all, would this be the bed where Michael Jackson was placed?


WALGREN: OK. And what`s the term for this?

COOPER: It`s a trauma gurney.

WALGREN: OK. And describe for us what we see then in the photograph, beyond the gurney, all of this medical equipment here.

COOPER: This tool chest is our airway equipment.

WALGREN: And you`ve indicated that the large tool chest with -- appears to be colored doors -- white box.


WALGREN: Is that where you`re pointing?


WALGREN: And what type of equipment is in there?

COOPER: They`re endotracheal tubes. There are other advanced airway devices. If we were attempting to intubate a patient, and we could not place an endotrachael tube, we have rescue airway devices.

WALGREN: And above this, the airway equipment, this monitor here, what is that?

COOPER: That`s the cardiac monitor the patient who is in the trauma room would be placed on.

WALGREN: OK. And what type of readings would that give you?

COOPER: That would have a EKG rhythm and show the heart rate. It would have blood pressure. It would have the oxygen saturation. If the patient had an arterial line, as Mr. Jackson did, the pressure tracing would be connected and shown on the monitor.

WALGREN: OK. And this would all -- the readings that would be on this monitor would be from sensors and devices attached to the patient?

COOPER: Correct.

WALGREN: And this area then, in the photograph which would be to the right of the airway equipment and the monitoring screen, what is shown here?

COOPER: There is -- it`s a little hard to see. This is actually a portable monitor and defibrillator.

WALGREN: And you pointed -- is that...

COOPER: Where you see the red.

WALGREN: OK. On the right of the overhead (ph) equipment.



COOPER: And although it`s not clear to see here, there`s a ventilator here.

WALGREN: OK. And then how about this device to the right of the defibrillator? This pole and then the device on top?

COOPER: Without seeing a close-up picture of it, I`m not sure if that -- which part of our equipment this is.

WALGREN: OK. Let me see if I can -- are you able to tell or is it too blurred?

COOPER: It`s a little bit blurred. I think this is one of our smaller ventilator devices. And not our other airway device.

WALGREN: It`s a smaller ventilator device?

COOPER: I believe it`s -- there`s an oxygen tank. I believe this is a portable -- this is a bag of mask, but I would have to look at the -- be in the room and look at it to be sure I`m not just misspeaking.

WALGREN: OK. And going beyond that equipment, what is this cabinet here immediately to the right of that equipment?

COOPER: This cabinet has several different trays. Various equipment we would use in the resuscitation of a patient. This is a trauma bay, so there are tubes so that we -- there are trays so that we can crack a patient`s chest open so we can place tubes in people`s chests. If we needed to do what`s calls a tracheostomy, and sort of an airway where we fed directly into the neck, that equipment is held -- is held here. There are central line kits. Sort of type of IV kits that we would use.

WALGREN: When you said tracheostomy, go straight into the neck, what is that exactly?

COOPER: Instead of the endotracheal tube where we go through the mouth with a tube into the trachea, in some people, that`s not possible, and they will have an airway where we cut directly into the neck and place it.

Emergency physicians typically will not put in a tracheostomy tube. That would be done by a head and neck surgeon, but we have the equipment here in case it`s needed.

WALGREN: That would be where you couldn`t use an endotracheal tube and you needed to ventilate?

COOPER: Correct.

WALGREN: Then you mentioned -- you mentioned at the bottom there, the equipment for a central line, is that what you said?

COOPER: Correct.

WALGREN: And what`s the central line?

COOPER: A central line is, in essence, a larger and longer IV. It allows us to access the central circulation quicker than would be a IV that was placed peripherally in the arm.

WALGREN: How is the central line put in place or administered?

COOPER: Central lines are placed by the physicians. They`re initially -- it`s what we call the Selldinger (ph) technique.

WALGREN: I`m sorry. The what?

COOPER: There`s a special technique that we use where we use a needle to puncture the vessel. We then introduce a wire and guide the wire through the needle into the vessel. We then introduce a catheter over the wire into the vessel.

WALGREN: OK. And going then to the right, the equipment you`ve described -- and I`m going switch photographs as we move through the room. People`s 49.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The emergency room doctor who was there when Michael Jackson was brought in, talking about what happened that fateful day. We`re going to take a brief break. We`ll be back with more testimony in just a moment.


DEBRA BRAZIL, PROSECUTOR: Describe Dr. Murray`s demeanor, please.


BRAZIL: I saw Dr. Murray come down the stairs into the kitchen in a panic. Children were crying. And screaming.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Fans here are monitoring. They`re not just standing out here, they`re getting into court. They`re monitoring it with their apps.

BRAZIL: Did you ask Dr. Murray how long the patient had been in this condition? What did Dr. Murray say?

SENNEFF: It just happened right when I called you.

BRAZIL: And in your mind, what did that mean?

SENNEFF: This was a patient that was somebody we had a really good chance of saving.

TOM MESEREAU, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He should have looked at Michael and said, "Michael, that`s dangerous. It doesn`t belong in the home. We don`t have proper equipment. We don`t have proper personnel. I`m not going to do it."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had an incredible relationship with his fans all over the world and they with him.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is just a tiny sampling of the global interest in this case.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: It looks like they`re wrapping up for the day. We`re monitoring the situation in court, but I got to tell you, what a day it`s been. Lies and more lies uncovered at the Michael Jackson death trial. Well, that`s what some say.

Two of the paramedics who raced to Michael Jackson`s home say Michael Jackson appeared dead when they got there. They said they never saw any signs of life at all from the moment they arrived.

They also said the information that Dr. Murray gave them just did not add up. So was Dr. Murray putting on an attempt to save Jackson`s life for show? As part of a cover up? Paramedics revealed some big lies on the part of the defendant today.

Lie No. 1, when Dr. Conrad Murray told paramedics what drugs he`d given Michael Jackson, he failed to mention the big one. And lie No. 2, well, the paramedics are saying anyway, that Dr. Murray told them that Michael Jackson stopped breathing right -- well, just shortly before they got there.

Listen to the actual radio transmission when the megastar was initially declared dead while he was still in his home.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If there`s nothing further, we are -- we`re going to call it here, and time -- the time of death is 12:57 from our end here.

The doctor here wants a definite transfer.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: The truth is, Jackson was probably dead long before 12:57, but in the end, the official time of death ended up being 2:26 p.m., almost two hours after that initial death declaration you just heard, and this is this new audiotape.

Paramedics described Dr. Murray as quote, "frantic." When they arrived at the house five minutes after the 911 call was made by bodyguard Alberto Alvarez. You see him here. Murray left out, however, one key piece of information when he was talking to the paramedics. Listen to this.


BRAZIL: Did Dr. Murray ever mention to you having administered Propofol to Michael Jackson?

SENNEFF: No, he did not.

BRAZIL: Did Conrad Murray ever mention the word "Propofol" to you during the time that you were at the location or in his presence?

SENNEFF: He never mentioned the word "Propofol."


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Meantime, we can tell you court officially over for the day, and we have some breaking news. The judge issued a gag order today, preventing any lawyers from talking about the case. We`re going to show you what exactly ticked the judge off. Fireworks just starting, and people are now speculating whether Dr. Murray will have to take the stand. What do you think? 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297.

I`m very delighted to be joined by CNN chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Thank you for coming back. Also with me, attorney Debra Opri.

But I`ve got to start with you, Dr. Gupta. They`re saying -- two paramedics and one emergency room doctor -- he never told any of them he had given Michael Jackson Propofol. Your thoughts?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, it`s not something you forget. This was obviously a drug that`s very unusual to be given, certainly outside the home, so I am not -- it doesn`t make a lot of sense as to why he wouldn`t tell it. It`s not something you forget. It`s very odd.

You`re reticent to say that this is suspicious. Was he panicking? I don`t understand any iteration where he would just forget that, given how important it is in a situation like this.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, therefore, it`s incriminating.

GUPTA: Again, you heard the testimony of him running around like crazy, obviously, panicking, looking flustered when the paramedics came in. This was something that he absolutely needed to bring up, because it`s so important to the potential care of the patient. It turns out the patient may not have been able to be saved, by what we heard in the room today, but that`s an important point, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Was he even in denial about what was going on? There was actually a debate of sorts between the paramedics and Dr. Murray. This is absolutely wild. Over whether or not there was a pulse. And the paramedics were saying, "Hey, this guy`s flat lining."

And the doctor insisting, "No, I feel a pulse." Let`s hear it from the actual witness who testified today.


BRAZIL: Who was it in the room who identified that they felt a pulse?

SENNEFF: Dr. Murray.

BRAZIL: Did you receive any affirmative or positive information from any other member of your team that they felt a pulse?

SENNEFF: No, they did not.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. That`s wild.

GUPTA: Here`s one thing to keep in mind. When you`re doing resuscitation, when you`re actually doing chest compressions, the goal is to try and pump blood through the body. So when you`re asking if there`s a pulse, there`s a second question that needs to be asked here, as well. Were chest compressions being performed at the time the pulse was felt? That`s the critical question.

Because when the compressions are actually going on, you may feel a pulse. Why? Because the blood is moving through the body. That`s why you feel it. What doctors typically do during the situation is to stop compressions, feel the pulse now to try and figure out is the heart beating on its own at all? Is there any kind of actual native movement to the heart that`s non-related to the compression?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, this is kind of a debate show, so we`re going to have a little debate here. Richard Herman, criminal defense attorney. Somebody told me you`re shaking your head.

RICHARD HERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, Jane, as soon as the paramedics got there, he flat lined. He was done. He had been dead -- if someone took a gun, Jane, and put it in their mouth and blew their brains out, would it matter when the paramedics came? Would it matter what they told the paramedics, what medications they may have given this person? He was dead on arrival.

When Conrad Murray walked back into that room, he was dead on arrival, and that`s the defense position.

Who administered the fatal dose? That`s the issue for the jury. If they believe Conrad Murray only gave 25 milligrams, he`s going to be acquitted here. If they don`t believe him -- and Jane, I absolutely maintain Conrad Murray will have to testify in this case. If they don`t believe him...


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Richard Herman -- Richard Herman, why is he so reluctant to pronounce somebody dead who everybody else is saying is clearly dead. You heard the recording. They`re like, we`d like to pronounce him dead here.

HERMAN: Jane, why did they -- why did they wait till 2:27?

DEBRA OPRI, ATTORNEY: He didn`t want to -- Dr. Murray clearly did not want the responsibility. He wanted to be in a hospital setting and all of that.

What I want everyone to remember, we have just started, folks. And when you have the testimony of the security guards and everyone who started coming into the room one at a time, you have people being witnesses to he looked dead. He looked dead. Paramedics come in, no pulse. No pulse.

But for all intents and purposes, you know, you have to look at how long Dr. Murray was out of that room, and if he was out of that room longer than two or three minutes, you`ve got your gross negligence, you`ve got your conviction.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, I want to thank you all for having a little debate about this, but there`s only one doctor in this house. And that is Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Thank you so much, doctor.

GUPTA: Yes. Thanks.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Up next, we`ve got never-before-seen Casey Anthony jailhouse video. It`s just been released. It`s a shocker. It`s an absolute shocker.



JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, OVERSAW CASEY ANTHONY TRIAL: In order to protect Mrs. [SIC] Anthony`s right to a fair trial, seal the tape at that time.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: Miss Anthony does object under the grounds of privacy, what can really only be described as intentional infliction of emotional distress.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`re going to have more on the Michael Jackson death trial in just a moment, but we have got breaking news in the Casey Anthony case. Yes.

Judge Belvin Perry has just released that video we all wanted to see. Remember, a long time ago? That video of Casey from the moment she heard that a child`s body was found in a swampy area right near her family`s home. Now, this is before it`s been identified. Here it is.

This was taken December 11, 2008. Caylee`s body had not yet been identified. Those remains had not been identified as little Caylee`s. That happened eight days later.

But take a look at Casey`s reaction. Her jaw seems to drop open. She`s looking at the TV screen where the video is playing live, I understand, from a local news station that, oh, my gosh, they found remains right near the Casey Anthony home. And she starts hyperventilating, and she doubles over. You`ll see it in a second.

Now, this video was originally sealed to protect Casey`s right to a fair trial. There she is doubled over. Doubled over. The defense wanted to keep it under wraps. Even now, after the verdict, saying it would violate Casey`s right to privacy. The judge disagreed.

All right. Debra Opri, this video, do you think it`s incriminating? Remember, it`s before anybody knew those were little Caylee`s remains.

OPRI: Yes, I think it`s incriminating, because in an open area of publicity here, you have this public area in the waiting room. You have a woman who is reacting to evidence, possibly being devastatingly horrible for her, and she`s reacting.

Did the judge make the right ruling? Of course he did. Is it something now that should be let out to the public? Of course it should, because there`s no further harm to her in terms of being...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Double jeopardy. But Mike Brooks, I got to ask you, HLN law enforcement analyst, had this been released at trial, do you think it could have changed the outcome?

MIKE BROOKS, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I think it very well could have, Jane. Because at this point, everybody still thought that little Caylee -- little Caylee`s missing. We don`t know what happened -- we`re after the trial now.

Apparently, Casey at this time, knew that little Caylee had drowned, but that they hadn`t found a body. So she`s still going along with all her lies. And now, "She realizes, oh, my God, the gig is up. They found little Caylee`s body. Now, they may have a case against me." That`s why she`s so upset, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Levi Page, what do you make of this video? Do you think it`s as shocking as -- I mean, it`s blurry. But you definitely get the sense that she`s looking up at the TV set.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I`m going to toss -- I`m going to toss it over to Richard Herman. Richard Herman, what do you think of this video?

HERMAN: Jane, first of all, I don`t think the video is that incriminating and second of all, you know, arguably, it`s a HIPAA violation. That I think you`ve got to agree with me. Arguably, she`s -- she`s on medication. She`s being treated. She`s going into the infirmary there. What purpose does this serve to release a sealed record to the public? I`ve never seen it before, Jane.

They`re making her pay restitution on an acquitted defendant. It`s unprecedented what`s going on here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait a second. You`re saying this is sour grapes?

More debate on the other side.



CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: What do you want me to tell Zanny?



CINDY ANTHONY: What do you think her reasons are?

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, I don`t know.


CASEY ANTHONY: I forgive her. My only concern is that Caylee comes back to us and she`s smiling and she`s happy and that she`s ok.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. That`s Casey Anthony before the momentous event, December 11, 2008 where they find remains near her family home before they`ve been identified.

And there`s new video just released by the court that shows Casey Anthony. You can actually see her hyperventilating and doubling over as she walks into an infirmary, sits down in the waiting, looks up and sees the local news or some news program that`s showing, oh my gosh, they found remains right near the Anthony home but nobody knows what remains those are. They hadn`t been identified and yet her reaction, some observers would say, is incriminating because she reacts with shock and then she begins hyperventilating and then she doubles over.

So it`s fascinating video. We had wanted to see it. It was kept out of the trial because it was ruled to be too inflammatory by the judge.

Cynthia, Illinois, your question or thought Cynthia.

CYNTHIA, ILLINOIS (via telephone): My thought on this -- hi, are we connected? Hello?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, you are. Go ahead, your question. Yes, Cynthia.

CYNTHIA: My thought on this --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Her thought on this has been cut off.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Really bad connection.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. Do we have Levi Page?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Levi, your thought on this video.

PAGE: Well, I think that it`s very interesting that Casey Anthony freaks out when they found the remains in that area, December 11th, 2008. But yet before they had found those skeletal remains, Jose Baez -- not Jose Baez, but Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter that bailed her out of jail, had a crew diving in a river in the Orlando area searching for Caylee. And that was all over the news.

And when Casey Anthony saw that video, she didn`t think anything of it. She just rolled her eyes and then walked away. But when this was going on, she was rocking, she doubled over. She hyperventilated, I think, because she knew that she was busted.

And if you remember, after they found the body, that`s when the prosecutors decided that their case got much stronger and they were going to seek the death penalty in the case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Mike Brooks, some had argued, hey this was a set-up. The cops walked her right in there knowing that that would be on the news and they sat her down in front of the TV and videotaped her precisely to get this reaction.

MIKE BROOKS, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: But Jane, who says it was a set-up. It was Jose Baez that said it was a set-up. So of course, he`s going to say it`s a set-up. And Richard may think it`s a HIPAA violation. I think Debra doesn`t believe it is like I don`t believe it is.


BROOKS: And you know, so no. And what Levi was talking about, that was at the little econ river at Jay Blanchard Park, where one of these confrontations allegedly had taken place with Zanny the nanny. Remember that she got into a -- basically threatened by Zanny and one of her relatives. It was right there in that park and he thought they`d found bones. She looked up at the monitor, went right back in her cell, no reaction. Why? Because she knew where the body was -- that`s why, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And remember, her story changes.

BROOKS: That`s right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Her story changes after this is -- this turning point moment, suddenly, it`s not Zanny kidnapped the baby. Suddenly, it becomes the child died accidentally in the swimming pool. Ok?

We`re going to have to leave it right there, but wow, what an interesting coda to that case.

All right, back to the Michael Jackson death trial.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice for Michael. Justice for Michael.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This whole case is based on money.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think he was duped or tricked or pressured.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Into doing more concerts than what he originally agreed and trapped and for financial reasons, probably couldn`t get himself out.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that`s a conspiracy, too?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That, I think also. Yes, it`s part of it. That he couldn`t easily get himself out of the situation, yes. Maybe he was being threatened that if you do back out, there will be consequences.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did anybody witness what happen?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, just the doctor sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Someone may have, and this is my theory, offered Conrad Murray more than $5 million to overdose him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This goes much higher than Conrad Murray in my opinion. I do hold him accountable for Michael`s death in terms of the Propofol usage but I think he`s the fall guy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s possible that Michael Jackson was kidnapped.

ALAN DUKE, CNN PRODUCER: They saw a body. They saw Michael Jackson there in the coffin.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Follow the money. It`s very obvious. Follow the money. And people have been trying to get to Michael for years, trying to say that he had addiction problems and all that. It`s bogus.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s a drug that people call the zombie drug. And it makes the person seem as they`re dead. He`s alive. I`m convinced of that.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: While the Michael Jackson death trial goes on inside the LA County courthouse, you could say there`s a veritable fashion show going on outside every time a member of the Jackson family arrives.

Check this out. Here`s Latoya Jackson, arriving with her bodyguard. Honestly, she looks like she`s going to a Hollywood premiere; very, very fashionably dressed every time she shows up. Today, this was another day where she has a white bag -- today, she came in black. She had gloves. She literally had gloves going up past her elbows and she left her little dog in the Bentley when she got out.

And, of course, Janet Jackson, take a look at her. She looks fantastic. I`ve been watching her for years. She sometimes maybe like we all do, puts on a little weight, and then she takes it off. Look how fantastic she looks.

Ken Baker, they are making a fashion statement as they walk in the court, no doubt.

KEN BAKER, EXECUTIVE NEWS EDITOR, E!: Yes, absolutely. But Latoya is the one who`s getting all the attention. I mean just today, I was in the courtroom, she was sitting right behind me. And I went to look at the time in the clock and I looked at her and I noticed that she was wearing thigh- high boots with giant spikes on them, a pretty short skirt. It seemed -- to me it`s somewhat inappropriate. So I think that she`s been raising a lot of attention.

But the family`s really interesting when you watch. They`re in the second row every day. All of the immediate family members have been there. Jermaine`s been in and out throughout the week.

But it`s interesting because they`re all pretty quiet. These are courtroom veterans. They went to the 2005 molestation trial. They are very used to being there and accustomed to doing that, but Latoya, she`s taking notes actively during the breaks. She`s tweeting. I even saw Latoya reading the bible, which seems to be somewhat inconsistent with what she`s wearing --


BAKER: -- just for the record. But generally speaking, you know, it`s really about Katherine. She is the matriarch. She comes first every day. She`s in the courtroom first. She`s the first one to leave. She`s granted a lot of respect in that courtroom.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I have to say, I am right out there with the fans every morning and as I see them go in, what I think of is they are well about caring for their brother, but preserving the Jackson legacy because this is once again tainting the Jackson legacy.

We had just forgotten all about the molestation trial. We were all enjoying his music again. His music royalties were up; people are starting to play his music more. It was like he had recaptured his magic and then this.

Now we have to hear about catheters and all sorts of things that really are kind of bringing us back down in terms of Michael.

BAKER: Yes, but it`s interesting. But if you look at the family, they`re all pretty stoic about it. There wasn`t a lot of emotion shown this week, but the big question is, are they going to impact the jury at all? I mean there`s a lot of people who believe that they`re there because they want the jury to be reminded there`re loved ones of this person who is deceased that they believe was because of this doctor`s actions, or lack of actions for that matter.

Now, I look at the jury. When I run to the courtroom -- I`ve been in there just about every day this week. I spend a lot of time looking at the jury. I don`t notice the jury looking or recognizing the Jackson family whatsoever, to be honest with you. I have not once seen one of those jurors look at the Jackson family though they`re right there.

The jurors are very attentive. They`re very focused on the proceedings. If anything, I noticed that a lot of the female jurors are pretty taken by DA Walgren, to be honest with you.


BAKER: He`s quite a handsome, charismatic guy. I have noticed they laugh at his jokes and things like that. So there seems to be some connection going on between the jurors and the DA, but not necessarily that they`re acknowledging the presence of the Jackson family.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, what I found so fascinating today, Latoya walks in and she`s got long gloves going all the way past her elbows, almost as if she`s going to some kind of evening event.

BAKER: Like a gala. Yes, that`s exactly what I thought. You know, clearly, she`s not the one. She`s not going to testify in this trial. She`s also not trying this case. She can essentially wear what she wants within limits, but there are a lot of people whispering in the hallways that it does seem a bit inappropriate. But Latoya is pretty --


BAKER: Yes. Latoya is Latoya, there you go. You said it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Well, Ken, it`s so great to see you. Thank you so much for coming on.

And I have to tell you. It`s fun to watch them. It really is. They have style. They have class. They know showbiz. They know how to full focus, that`s for sure, and capture the spotlight.

Up next, we`re going to talk exclusively once again to Michael Jackson`s long time publicist and she is fired up angry.


KATHERINE JACKSON, MOTHER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: There`s not a day that passes I don`t think about my child. And he should be here right now. But there was negligence of a doctor. And it`s just hard. It`s really hard.



MOLLY BARKER: Give it a shot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Molly barker is a four-time iron man athlete. She`s using her love of running to teach girls valuable life lessons.

BARKER: "Girls on the Run" is a program for Third to Eighth Grade girls that gives girls the tools to live their lives with intention and celebrate who they are.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The afterschool program helps girls build confidence while training for a 5k. Molly started the organization in 1996 after years of questioning her own self-worth.

BARKER: When I was about I guess 11 or 12, I became very aware of the voices in my head saying you`re not pretty enough or smart enough or thin enough, brave enough; basically, you`re not good enough.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After changing the way she thought about herself, Molly was inspired to help others.

BARKER: I want you to think about a word that you love about being a girl.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Since she started a program, more than 350,000 girls have taken part.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Girls on the Run teaches you even if you say negative thought about yourself, you can turn them into positive thoughts.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Super, super, girl power.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael self-medicated. Hey, if you loved Michael so much why didn`t you go to his house and get him off drugs?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He wasn`t on drugs.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- he would get it. For years, pharmaceutical drugs in Hollywood -- Hollywood killed Michael. Dr. Murray didn`t kill him, Hollywood killed him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Educated yourself. You don`t know what you`re talking about.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. There was controversy and chaos outside court. There was also controversy inside court today in the Michael Jackson death trial.

In fact the judge who seems highly annoyed issued a gag order today in this trial, stopping any attorneys from discussing this case outside the courtroom. Apparently the judge got mad after seeing one of Murray`s associates -- one of the associates from the defense team, a partner of the attorney who is the lead attorney -- appearing on NBC`s "Today" show.

Here is that clip.


MATTHEW ALFORD, PARTNER ON MURRAY`S DEFENSE TEAM: If we feel that the state hasn`t proven their case, there`s not a chance that we`re going to subject him to the skilled cross-examination of the Das here in LA County. And (INAUDIBLE) a major factor is we know that -- we know that the jury knows, and this is a smart jury, that they know that the state of California has not proven the case.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, that`s the controversy.

Now, apparently because the judge got upset -- and I want to introduce my guest here -- we`ve got Erin Jacobs and Amy (INAUDIBLE) and they are founder, co-founder and co-founder of the Justice for Michael Jackson Fan Club;

What do you make of this gag order? The judge doesn`t want this to be a runaway freight train. It doesn`t want it to get out of control so he issues a gag order. Do you think that`s a good idea?

ERIN JACOBS, MICHAEL JACKSON FAN: I do. I don`t think we would have ever had to worry about DA Walgren speaking out to the cameras. The prosecution`s usually good about not doing that. But you know, then you find out today that the defense has a partner in the firm out speaking about the case, which isn`t appropriate.


JACOBS: He`s trying to prejudice the jury, I think.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And you don`t think the prosecution would do that?

JACOBS: I don`t. I don`t. I don`t think that you see prosecutors out doing too much speaking to reporters during the trial. They seem a little more professional.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, sometimes they do. But it`s not that they do it directly.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: What both sides have a tendency to do is to make calls and then they say I`m an anonymous source, don`t quote me. And I`m not saying either side is doing that in case. But that`s what happens all the time. Both sides put a little spin on the ball.

JACOBS: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I mean that`s the truth.

Now, you said you wanted to say something and you guys represent the fans. So what do you have to say?

JACOBS: Yes. Amy and I, we started Justice 4 MJ back in February of 2010 directly after the District Attorney Steve Cooley filed these involuntary manslaughter charges. We were outraged. We felt they were inappropriate. We felt they were insufficient.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What did you want?

JACOBS: We wanted Murder Two. We tried to contact Steve Cooley directly. He wouldn`t talk to us. We went to Jerry Brown who was the Attorney General at the time. And we were getting nowhere, so we started campaigning against Steve Cooley who incidentally lost in the election but we`ve been screaming all the way up until the preliminary hearing that this was Murder Two.

And interestingly enough you had a guest on your show yesterday who was in the district attorney`s office, I guess until just a while ago who was in the room with the Jackson family when they explained that this was going to be an involuntary manslaughter charge and they were as upset as we are.

I mean we just feel this is just a ridiculous charge that this district attorney took Michael Jackson`s life and put it to an involuntary accidental charge of murder when clearly -- I think even the pundits and the newscasters are saying this is second-degree murder.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, listen, he did not -- I don`t think anybody -- the prosecution is not contending that he intended to kill Michael Jackson. It would not have been in his self-interest. He was going to make $150,000 a month and in fact he never got paid because the contract hadn`t been signed.

So I think that what they are charging and I`ve spoken to Tom Mesereau, who is, I think, one of the best attorneys in the United States and I asked him about this. He said you know what; this is the appropriate charge because if you over charge, which, for example, some felt they did in the Casey Anthony case and then you lose, well the outrage that you might be feeling and that the family might be feeling is nothing compared to the outrage they would feel if the case was lost because it was over charged.

JACOBS: Well, I don`t think that the prosecutors lost the Casey Anthony case because they over charged. They didn`t prove their case. They convicted her in the media and they convicted her on her morals. They couldn`t prove anything in that case. So I think the jury did the right thing. But what I`m saying here is --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: A lot of people disagree with you on that.

JACOBS: I agree.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s another subject. We`re on the Michael Jackson death trial. Go ahead.

JACOBS: But what I`m saying is that there is usually, with this district attorney, a high count with lesser included charges so they can come down but once you`re down you can`t go back up. There`s nowhere to go. This is a four-year sentence for a doctor who was so grossly negligent, took this man`s life, had no regard for his patient at all that we just don`t feel this is sufficient. And the guest that you had on yesterday from the district attorney`s office agrees with us.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Formerly with the district attorney.

JACOBS: Formerly.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, he does agree with you. A lot of people feel that even if Murray is convicted getting a maximum of four years is a slap on the wrist and we all know because of overcrowding in the prison system that could literally become a year or even probation. And that`s what a lot of people are very concerned about.

I want to thank you. You make some great points there.

Monday, an ISSUES exclusive -- I`m going to talk to Michael`s former agent who was on the set of the infamous Pepsi commercial shoot.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When Dr. Murray left the room they say he got up and took more pills and also injected more Propofol.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said get here right away, Mr. Jackson had a bad reaction.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s called "some other dude did it" defense. Except in this case we can`t point to some other dude.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you ever heard Michael Jackson sound like that before?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not to that extreme.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s what happens when Murray is not there to treat him.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, and we are here at the Los Angeles Criminal Courts building. Across the street, you see the building in the background. What an extraordinary day in the Michael Jackson death trial.

Michael Jackson had 27 different prescription drugs in his bedroom. He had a slew of drugs in his system. But Dr. Conrad Murray, testimony revealed today, told the paramedics who arrived at Michael Jackson`s house he had only given him one drug. Listen to this.


RICHARD SENNEFF, PARAMEDIC, TRIED TO REVIVE JACKSON: He said, "No he`s not taking anything." Then he followed that up with, "I just gave him a little bit of Lorazepam to sleep." I said, "Is there anything else?" And, "No, that`s it. Just a little bit of Lorazepam."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to bring in Raymone Bain. She`s been a guest all this week. Fired up about all sorts of things Michael Jackson -- you used to be Michael Jackson`s spokesperson. You traveled the world with him. What do you want to say about this extraordinary first week of trial?

RAYMONE BAIN, GENERAL MANAGER FOR MICHAEL JACKSON: I think the prosecution has done an excellent job; an excellent one. And I think they were -- their witnesses today, knockout -- three knockouts. It showed how Dr. Murray deliberately withheld the medical care that he`d given Michael Jackson.

And let me tell you something it`s an overwhelming consensus out here, people are shocked. They are shocked, Jane. They cannot believe the kind of care that Michael Jackson received. And I`m going to tell you, over the last several weeks and months that I`ve talked to his parents, they hurt right here. They have a hole in their heart. Their son is gone. Their son is gone.

And this doctor, the care that he gave Michael Jackson was so negligent; the lies that he`s been telling.

And I agree with the fans. It is so unfortunate that this is involuntary manslaughter charge. It should be murder. But Michael Jackson is gone and based on -- and we`ve talked about various emails I`ve received all week -- people are shocked at the level of care Michael Jackson received. He deserved better. This guy should go to jail. He really should. There is nothing to say other than it`s outrageous.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me say this. Raymone, there are some things that happened in court that might lean towards the defense. There`s a discrepancy over the actual time Michael Jackson`s body was moved off the bed and on to the floor.

Yesterday Jackson`s bodyguard, Alberto Alvarez testified they moved the body at 12:20 while on the phone with 911 but today the paramedics came in and they said when they walked in about six minutes later Michael Jackson`s body was still on the bed. So that`s kind of a mess up in the timeline that could come back to haunt the prosecution and I want you to think about that for a second.

On the other side we`re going have a little bit more analysis; just a wee bit.

Stay right there. We`ll be right back.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: We also want to tell you that Leilani Clark, a spokesperson for Mike Garcia, a former Michael Jackson bodyguard did contact our show to counter claims that Michael Jackson`s inner circle didn`t do anything to help him. He says he was always there for Michael and never abandoned him in anyway.

Now, this case is moving at lightning speed. The prosecution`s case, we`re in the thick of it. It is going gangbusters. But I have to say, if the prosecution doesn`t look like it`s winning big time during the prosecution`s case, then the prosecution is in big trouble. So we can`t assume because it looks great for the prosecution now that means it`s a slam dunk -- far from it. The defense case hasn`t even begun and there are always surprises in a mega case like this. So expect surprises.

We`re going to be all over this case all next week every significant development you`re going to get it here on ISSUES.

And now, "NANCY GRACE".