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Day 8 in Conrad Murray Trial: The Defense Strikes Back

Aired October 6, 2011 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Contentious questioning today in the Michael Jackson trial.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This syringe has your fingerprint on it.

PINSKY: The defense grills the coroner`s investigator.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You made a substantial number of mistakes in your investigation of this case.

PINSKY: I`m asking HLN`s own fearless prosecutor Nancy Grace, are they indicting the witness?

Plus, a rhyming defense line.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the bag is not milky, my client is not guilty.

PINSKY: Echoes from O.J. in the Michael Jackson death case.

And speaking of O.J., former Simpson witness Kato Kaelin is with me. I`m asking, will Murray`s dazzling actress ex profit from her testimony or is it a publicity pitfall?


PINSKY: Tonight, day eight of the Michael Jackson death trial in Los Angeles. Maybe today scored a win for Dr. Conrad Murray.

Watch this, then we`ll talk.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Day eight of Conrad Murray trial set to get under way.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The coroner`s investigator, Elissa Fleak, being cross-examined by Ed Chernoff, and they`re talking about June 29th, four days after Michael Jackson`s death, when she goes into his bedroom and finds the Propofol and other medicine.

ED CHERNOFF, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Ms. Fleak, would you agree with me that you made a substantial amount of mistakes in this case?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where is he going with this? How is he trying to take her down?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What he`s trying to get at is whether this small vial of Propofol was in the IV bag, because that gets to the root of administration, and that`s the core of his defense.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is what the defense has to do. They have to poke holes in this case and they have to show if there was any type of incompetency that happened.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is doing a good job picking it apart and showing mistakes.


PINSKY: Today, the defense got tough, breaking down coroner`s investigator Elissa Fleak on the stand. Ed Chernoff got her to admit she made mistakes. Watch.


CHERNOFF: Ms. Fleak, would you agree with me that you made a substantial number of mistakes in the investigation of this case?

FLEAK: Was it a mistake? I could have described it more in detail.

CHERNOFF: You could have taken a picture before taking the bottle out of the bag if it was there, right?

FLEAK: I could have, yes.

CHERNOFF: Did you ever take possession of that juice bottle?

FLEAK: I did not collect the juice bottle.


PINSKY: Also today, one of the key pieces of evidence is going to be the IV bag next to Michael Jackson`s bed.

Watch this from court just hours ago.


CHERNOFF: You see it there at the top?


CHERNOFF: Can you see there droplets of water that are formed on this IV bag?


CHERNOFF: Clear water.

FLEAK: I don`t know if it is water.

CHERNOFF: Well, it`s a saline bag. It could be saline, right?

FLEAK: Correct.

CHERNOFF: But it`s clear?


CHERNOFF: And let`s go over here. You agree with me, there`s no milky fluid in this IV bag?

FLEAK: From this photo, no.


PINSKY: What they`re trying to say is if there was no Propofol residue in the bag, on the bag, or around the bag at the time of Jackson`s death, perhaps Propofol did not actually kill him and perhaps Dr. Murray is not so responsible.

We also heard testimony today from a toxicologist, lengthy testimony, Dan Anderson talking about what was actually in Michael`s body.

Joining me with insight into today`s testimony is Ryan Smith, the host of "In Session" on truTV.

Ryan, what is the latest today from the courtroom?

RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION," TRUTV: Well, you said a lot of it. And I`ll tell you, it was mainly focused on the coroner`s investigator and what she didn`t find.

Just a couple of other additions that ended up being very powerful, she talked about a syringe that was in the room that she photographed, but she moved it first and she had her fingerprints on it. She also talked about other things, other notes that she didn`t take, including information about that saline bag, a bottle of Propofol in there that she says she saw, but didn`t put in her notes.

So the defense was trying to pick apart the investigation of the coroner`s investigator, but keep in mind, Dr. Drew, it was not a crime scene at this point, and what she was doing was gathering information for the autopsy -- for the coroner. Excuse me.

So it became a very tough situation in court, a lot of attacking of the witnesses. But the defense is basically trying to push back on every single witness to say, could there be another alternative here, could there be something we`re not seeing, and was the investigation really complete?

PINSKY: Do you think, Ryan, there`s any chance that this could backfire on the defense? Their attempts to impeach witnesses, they were attacking these witnesses. These are just workers trying to do their job. Really high-level professionals doing their job, as you say, not at a crime scene.

Couldn`t the jury kind of get upset with the defense for being so brutal to these people?

SMITH: You know, they could. But I think what we`re seeing and what we might see in this case is the CSI effect.

I think that people have seen a lot of shows out there, a lot of things to say that when the CSI gets on the scene, they do everything right. When that happens, you have got a case and you`ve got a winnable case. But when there`s a mistake, then that must mean something is not quite right.

So we have seen that happen in some cases, but, you know, I think that there is an expectation that these people will do their job perfectly. And you know what? Nobody ever does, and there are always little things that might not be perfect.

Now, should she have gotten rid of her notes? Who knows? But she said in court that that was something she normally does, and she was writing a summary. So you never really know, but it could play either way.

PINSKY: And let me ask you one last question, Ryan. They get into this detail about whether or not there was milkiness, milky fluid in or around the IV bag. Why didn`t they just test the IV bag to see if there was any Propofol in it? Didn`t they do that?

SMITH: Yes. There was some conflict on this.

There was a test on the bag. Apparently, some had found that there was a milky residue in there. But the bag they had in court today -- and this is where there`s a little bit of a clarification that was a little surprising to see -- didn`t really show that milky residue. I think that was a bit of a win for the defense.

PINSKY: All right.

SMITH: Because when they show that, it could be that possible bag that Michael Jackson was connected to. But then again, there`s so much stuff in that room, it`s still unclear what was actually in Michael Jackson.

PINSKY: That was really for me the most stunning part about the testimony today, to see over and over again how much medication really was surrounding Michael Jackson at the time of his death.

Ryan, thanks so much for that update.

Joining me now is a woman that I`m honored to share the HLN primetime lineup with every single night. She is the queen of the courtroom and the dancing diva on "Dancing With the Stars," Nancy Grace.

Nancy, seven prescription bottles on Jackson`s nightstand, an IV bag that -- why did he even have an IV bag there? It`s his bedroom, for goodness sakes. Maybe having Propofol in it, Propofol surrounding him.

What are your thoughts on today`s testimony?

NANCY GRACE, HOST, "NANCY GRACE": Let me just clear up something for you, Dr. Drew and for Ryan.

PINSKY: Please, Nancy. Thank you.

GRACE: What went down in the courtroom today, the attack on the state`s witness, the coroner`s investigation, Elissa Fleak, was all smoke and mirrors. Let me throw a technical legal term at you. I bet you`re familiar with it -- BS, Dr. Drew!

What I`ve got in my hand right here, what I have examined thoroughly, line for line, literally, word for word, is the autopsy, the coroner`s reports. And when you have got Michael Jackson on a slab, believe me, all the honchos come in to help with the autopsy.

And what, may I ask you, Dr. Drew, is the cause of death? It is acute Propofol intoxication.

Not only that, the coroner goes on to say, "The circumstances do not support self administration of Propofol." Jackson did not shoot himself up.

Page one of the autopsy report -- I don`t even have to look at it -- Propofol, liver, spleen, stomach, heart, femoral artery in your leg. He even had Propofol swimming in the gel of his eye, Dr. Drew.

So don`t start with me about hey, maybe she`s making it all up. Maybe this little crime scene tech girl screwed the whole case up. No. No.

I have proof right here about what happened. I have got two eyes, two ears, common sense to tell me what I see at the crime scene.

Today, the bombshell in court was that Dr. Conrad Murray -- excuse me, other hand -- left index fingerprint on a bottle. Not a bottle, the bottle of Propofol that was used to shoot up Michael Jackson to his death.

I rest my case.

PINSKY: And you mean, Nancy, that it wasn`t sufficient to blow smoke at the jury, that the fact that their tech, the tech who was looking at the scene, put her finger on the syringe and moved it and caused a fingerprint, that it contaminated the entire scene, the hundreds of bottles of medication, the ridiculous situation that Michael Jackson found himself in?

But let me just ask you one thing. I agree with you 100 percent.

I read the autopsy report, too, and people kept saying he was in such great shape. I don`t know if you noticed on the lung exam they did there. It showed all kinds of chronic problems.

And for me, that`s somebody that may have been aspirating chronically, who wasn`t breathing normally or deeply. I mean, all signs of chronic intoxication, severe chronic lung disease, in a man that didn`t smoke. It`s crazy.

GRACE: You know, Doctor, I saw that, too. And about today, what they did, what the defense did, expertly, I might add, to Elissa Fleak, the coroner`s investigator, it hurt. It was a blow. It was a blow to the state.

It`s never good when the crime scene is anything but perfectly handled. It`s not going to be good.

That is why it is going to be so important for the state to fire back with the autopsy report, to fire back with everything they`ve got. They`ve got to go in guns a blazing.

We saw in "Tot Mom," you`ve got one chance to prove the case. You`ve got one chance to make this jury see, understand, feel, know common sense.

They`re going to have to do that, because the defense is gunning for them.

PINSKY: And they`ll do anything to not prove the case, but to save their client. They will destroy anybody they have to destroy, they`ll impeach anyone they have to impeach. The truth seems to bear no concern to the defense, does it?

But we`ll talk more, Nancy.

Up next, photographers snapped Dr. Murray getting a pedicure last week.

And I know, Nancy, you love that picture. I`m going to show it to you after the break.

Did he just want to look good for his four ex-girlfriends who took the stand this week?

Nancy continues to weigh in when we get back.


PINSKY: That was Michael Jackson rehearsing for his "This is It" tour, just one day before his death. Interestingly there, if you look at it, he was wearing a parka. He was complaining of being cold. He was in withdrawal.

Michael`s immeasurable talent, of course, overshadowed again today, as witnesses from Los Angeles County Coroner`s Office testified about the pop icon`s untimely death.

I`m back with HLN`s own Nancy Grace. She of course is a former prosecutor and a worthy and entertaining competitor on this season`s "Dancing With the Stars."

Speaking of entertainers, earlier this week four of Conrad Murray`s former girlfriends took the witness stand. One of them sort of stole the spotlight.

Nicole Alvarez talked about her career as an actress. Watch this.


NICOLE ALVAREZ, CONRAD MURRAY`S FMR. GIRLFRIEND: As a professional actress, my daily duties consist of maintaining my instrument, going on several castings throughout town, meeting with different casting directors.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you refer to an instrument, what are you referring to?

ALVAREZ: Myself.


ALVAREZ: Myself. As an actor, your instrument is yourself.


PINSKY: Nancy, four girlfriends he had. You wonder -- and of course one of them is maintaining her instrument. You wonder how he had any time for Michael Jackson, had any time to care for this man.

GRACE: Well, here`s -- that`s a whole other can of worms, Dr. Drew. You know, who he dates, who he sleeps with behind his wife`s back, I don`t care. That`s not a felony, unless, of course, bigamy comes into the scene, and it hasn`t so far.

Here is where I`m concerned. And, oh, P.S., Dr. Drew, the jury never heard about any of these women`s connections to the sex industry, be it strippers, whatever. They`ll never know all that.

PINSKY: Did you hear about all the kids, seven kids with six of the women? Is that something the jury is aware of?

GRACE: I don`t think they know all about his extracurricular activities. But this is where they come into play, Dr. Drew.

One of them is trying to reach him at 8:30 that morning. One of them is on the phone with him, on the cell phone, when we believe he realizes Michael Jackson is dead. On through the afternoon, another one is trying to reach him, texting, texting, texting, not hearing back.

The only woman he didn`t talk to that whole day was his wife. You know what? I don`t care. I am not the church lady.

What I do care about are those phone records, Dr. Drew, because his cell phone records show that during the time Michael Jackson was under the influence of the powerful surgical anesthetic Propofol, Conrad Murray`s chatting up his girlfriends and other people on the cell phone in the other room. That is when Michael Jackson died, when Murray should have been there with him.

And as to these allegations that Jackson shot himself up, number one, the injection was on his leg, closer to his knee. I don`t see Jackson doing that.

Number two, Jackson had on what is called a condom catheter. I doubt pretty seriously that Jackson inserted his own catheter.

PINSKY: Well, to be fair, a condom catheter goes on top. It`s actually a condom that goes on top, but it doesn`t come off. He`s not taking it off and putting it back on again. So I`ll grant you that.

GRACE: And third, if he could shoot himself up with Propofol, why does he need Conrad Murray? He doesn`t even need to be there.

So, long story short, we even have Murray saying that he did give Jackson some Propofol, but only a few minutes` worth. But the reality is, where these mistresses fit in is to prove the timeline. But the circumstances alone, in my mind, prove that Conrad Murray is the one that shot Jackson up.

PINSKY: Right. I think you`re right. I think that`s the reason they were able to get these women even into the case, is to establish that timeline. And the rest of us are sort of stunned that he is having all of these extracurricular activities.

GRACE: And one more thing, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Before you do one more thing --

GRACE: One more thing.

PINSKY: All right. One last thing.

GRACE: All that Propofol is being sent to the girlfriend`s house.

PINSKY: Yes, which is again the reason I think this was all relevant to the case.

But I want to show you a photo, Nancy. This is a photo of Conrad Murray over the weekend. They recently surfaced.

Here we see him getting a pedicure in a Los Angeles nail salon. And in another photo, we see him shopping for neckties.

Nancy, he faces four years in prison. Do you think he is not taking this as seriously as he should? He`s getting a pedicure? And by the way, he was seen out with Nicole Alvarez, who his ex-girlfriend, but he is married. And is she his ex?

There`s a lot of goofy stuff going on, is there not?

GRACE: Yes, there is, Dr. Drew. And had he been anybody else other than a doctor making a whole lot of money with an education and a diploma - - you know, he was pulling in $150,000 a month, Dr. Drew, from Michael Jackson alone.

If he were anybody else other than rich and educated, he would be under the jail right now. Imagine if somebody had come up and mugged Michael Jackson and shot him in the head. Do you think he`d be out shopping for $200 ties and getting a pedicure? Oh, no.

But because he is shrouded with prosperity, he is rich, he`s got an education, he`s out on bond.

Hint: there he is getting a pedicure. That`s his trial prep, Dr. Drew, getting a pedicure.

PINSKY: I didn`t know that, but I`ll take that into consideration next time -- if I should ever get in a courtroom.

It seems the whole thing --

GRACE: Just don`t be photographed, Dr. Drew. As much as I like you, I`ll have to come after you.

PINSKY: I know. I know better.

GRACE: He`s charged with killing a man and you`re getting a pedicure.

PINSKY: I know. The whole situation, it just gives you a horrible, horrible feeling.

And I didn`t want to talk about it. I mean, it`s just something that`s already so disturbing, and to have the poor judgment to --

GRACE: Well, it makes me sick to think of Jackson lying there. You know, regardless of any of his molestation charges in the past, that`s not the issue. The issue is, was he taken advantage of, was he killed? And the thought of his children running in that room and screaming, "Daddy, Daddy!" and their father is dead, it just --

PINSKY: Nancy, I have got to break. Thank you.

We`ll be right back.


PINSKY: The final curtain call and ominous last words from Michael Jackson as he announced his "This is It" tour in March, 2009. Three months later, he was dead.

Nancy, do you think that Michael Jackson himself -- I`d like your opinion on this -- do you think -- obviously, people around him failed him, there`s just no doubt about that. But do you think he bears any responsibility for his own death?

GRACE: No. Absolutely not.

Yes, granted, Michael Jackson was a junkie, he was an addict. I don`t know how upsetting it must be to his family now and will be to his children one day when they can understand, but many people in his family say that they tried, they tried to do what they could. They tried to do interventions. It didn`t work.

Does that absolve Conrad Murray for shooting him up with a fatal dose of Propofol? Absolutely not.

If Jackson had shot himself up, then this would be his fault. He should not be treated any differently under the law, Dr. Drew, because he was a junkie or because he was a superstar. Lady Justice is blind, Dr. Drew, and that includes the circumstances surrounding the victim.

PINSKY: I completely agree with you. And it makes me sad that my profession sometimes treats celebrities and famous people somewhat differently, and that`s where this went of the rail.

The fact is, if he was an addict, my profession should have intervened aggressively to help the patient. Even -- I will tell you what, Nancy -- even if the patient gave himself the medicine, what`s the doctor doing leaving all that medicine prescribed by him and his peers in the room, right?

GRACE: You`re right. But I`ve got rely on the coroner`s report where an independent doctor who looked at all the evidence, including the body itself, and said he did not inject it himself, Michael Jackson did not self-inject. This is not his fault.

PINSKY: Nancy, let`s switch gears here, because I want to congratulate you on last week`s waltz on "Dancing With the Stars."

I want to also remind people that they can vote for Nancy. Please do not forget to vote at 1-800-868-3405. I am serious. I want all the HLN fans to write this number down, 800-868-3405.

Tell us about your next dance.

GRACE: Oh, Dr. Drew, I have been doing it all day. It`s called the pasodoble, and it`s --

PINSKY: Oh, that`s a hard one. That`s hard.


GRACE: And it is extremely hard. It`s a Latin dance. It requires a lot of stomping.

And I keep saying, "Tristan, can`t you see other couples are doing easy dance where they run down the middle of the dance floor and they look great? Can`t you just dance around me?"

Oh, Dr. Drew, he is such a dancing person (ph). He`s like, "No, if we do an easy dance, you`ll be packing your bags to go home." He`s Irish.

I`m like -- I could hardly walk out of that dance rehearsal hall today. But I`m going to bring it Monday night, Drew, because I know you`re going to be watching.

PINSKY: All right. I will be watching, your fans will be watching and they`ll be voting.

GRACE: And voting.

PINSKY: 800-868-3405.

Thank you, Nancy, for joining us.

GRACE: Twelve times -- cell phone, landline and computer!


PINSKY: Up next, what you get is no tomorrow, so the song goes. Well, we`ll talk about celebrity trial fame. Believe it or not, Kato Kaelin is going to compare his experience with that of the young ladies who took the stand on behalf of Dr. Conrad Murray. Well, I don`t know about half of them, but the ones that were involved with him at one time.

Thanks again, Nancy.

And stay with us, please. We`ll be right back.



PINSKY (voice-over): Your honor, she`s ready for her close-up. Conrad Murray`s actress ex-girlfriend takes the stand with theatrical flare, but a courtroom audition can be a career killer. Remember Kato Kaelin? Once a star witness, but never really a star. Tonight, I`m asking him if Nicole Alvarez`s publicity is a Pandora`s box. Fifteen minutes of fame for a lifetime of shame.

And later, speaking for Michael. Tonight, Jackson`s former manager and spokesperson reveals warning signs leading up to the pop icon`s death.


PINSKY (on-camera): Explosive testimony today in the Michael Jackson death trial. Dr. Conrad Murray faces up to four years for involuntary manslaughter. Part of the prosecution`s case included a group of beautiful young women paraded to the stands. Four of Murray`s ex-girlfriends were up on the stand.

One stood out, in particular, the actress, Nicole Alvarez. And there`s no bigger stage for an aspiring thespian than a televised death trial. How about that? During her testimony, Alvarez showcased her acting chops and her emotional range. Watch.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You told me that no matter how many miles apart you were, you`d come back for me. Is that why you`re here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I missed you, Vanessa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have moved on, Chris.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What, is there somebody else?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re a knuckle head, you know that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you know what, this knuckle head is still in love with you.


PINSKY: Tonight, I want to look into something else. These women are being pulled into the spotlight, and some people want the fame and others just run from it. Straight to my expert panel tonight, criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh and criminal defense attorney, Jenn Barringer, who worked on the Phil Spector and Casey Anthony defense teams.

But first, I want to talk to Kato Kaelin who achieved worldwide notoriety as the witness, the famous witness in the O.J. Simpson murder trial. Kato, welcome. Start with you.

Hi, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Hi, buddy. What do you think so far of the trial?

KATO KAELIN, WITNESS IN THE O.J. SIMPSON TRIAL: A lot of similarities to the O.J. trial. Like today, for instance, they talked about a glove. Then, they talked a bottle of juice, of course, O.J. was the juice. So, there`s a lot of similarities.

But Conrad Murray, with marriage, four mistresses, a stripper, this guy should not be on trial. This guy has got to get back on the dating scene.


KAELIN: This is a reality show, the whole thing that`s happening. It`s like a reality show.

PINSKY: It is. I think that`s --

KAELIN: Drew, I`m watching Nicole Alvarez`s testimony, I`m not kidding you. She thinks the prosecutor is casting from WB. I`m blown away that she didn`t know how much this guy made. Listen, stripper rule number 101, find out how much someone is. You got to have a credit store of 705 to get a lap dance. She knew.

PINSKY: She probably did know something. But Kato, let me ask you this. Is there anything -- if you were advising these young women out there on the stand, because you went through something like this, right? I mean, you were scrutinized on the stand. What`s going to be like for them?

What happens after the spotlight sort of shines onto somebody else? Is this going to affect their lives? What would you tell them?

KAELIN: Completely. I guess, I`m fortunate that, you know what, I`d rather not win the lottery. I`d rather work hard and get a paycheck, but I think for their trial, they`ll have the 15-minute, right now, some attention. I think the trial will go on, and it will just sort of just fade.

PINSKY: It will pass them by.

KAELIN: Exactly. Fame is fleeting. And that`s what they have to live by. So, for Nicole Alvarez, you know, it`s good for a day. I think she`ll be a curiosity, and then, it will fade out.

PINSKY: Here`s more testimony, speaking of Nicole Alvarez. Watch this.


NICOLE ALVAREZ, CONRAD MURRAY`S FORMER GIRLFRIEND: As a professional actress, my daily duties consist of maintaining my instrument, going on several castings, throughout town, meeting with different casting directors.

DEBORAH BRAZIL, PROSECUTOR: When you refer to an instrument, what are you referring to?

ALVAREZ: Myself. Myself. As an actor, your instrument is yourself.


PINSKY: Kato, you`re an actor, do you agree body is an instrument?

KAELIN: Well, you know what, I would like to learn that instrument.



KAELIN: I would never say that on the stand, my body is the instrument, and I thought, you know, she`s speaking, I think she`s really playing to the jury there, but that was just a terrible line. I don`t think she made fans with that line. I thought it was sort of a jokey line for her to say, and it is a murder trial, and that`s something that you should avoid saying, it is my instrument.

PINSKY: That`s exactly right. It is not a casting call, it is a murder trial.

KAELIN: Exactly.

PINSKY: And it seems very inappropriate. Let`s take a look at all the women in the Conrad Murray`s life. Here are the names of Conrad Murray`s women. He has seven kids with five women. I thought it was with six, with five. First, I believe this is his wife, Dr. Blanche Yvette Bolick Murrays. She has two kids, a boy and girl.

Nicole Alvarez, she is the mother to his youngest child, a boy. Then, we have Nenita Malibiran (ph), I hope I get these names right, one boy. She took him to court in 1998 for child support. Patricia Mitchell, one girl, mother to his first child. Janice Adam, two girls, she has been described as his mistress.

Sade Anding, his ex-girlfriend, Michelle Bella, another ex-girlfriend, Bridgette Morgan, ex-girlfriend. Mark Eiglarsh, wow! I mean, is this stuff impeaching him? And by the way, do you think these women were interested in him? Nicole seemed interested in him because he was working with Michael Jackson. Do you think the jury is going to walk away with that impression?

MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: OK. Let`s break this down. Prosecutors knew exactly what they were doing. Sure they needed to establish a timeline, but they wanted to parade as many women as you can. Cinnamon, Amber, Filopia, Toileta (ph), to say, hey, look -- those are all my stripper names. I`m done.


EIGLARSH: Just to show, look -- yes. This is -- not that I know personally, that this is a guy who obviously is a bad character. And they`re hoping that some jurors will automatically judge him improperly, negatively. And that`s what they were doing. Are these girls interested in Conrad Murray? I don`t know, I don`t care.

Look at us giving her 15 minutes of fame. Those who oppose cameras in the courtroom, this is exhibit A. They`re performing, or at least Alvarez was. She wasn`t testifying. She was performing.

PINSKY: I think you`re absolutely right. Now, Murray`s girlfriends range from an exotic dancer to an actress, and one thing seemed very apparent, that Dr. Murray`s famous client left them star struck. Watch this.


BRAZIL: Did you, in fact, meet Mr. Jackson?


BRAZIL: And who introduced you?

ALVAREZ: Dr. Murray.

BRAZIL: And how did it come about that you got to meet Michael Jackson?

ALVAREZ: I`m still trying to figure that out myself.

BRAZIL: Why is that? What is confusing about it?

ALVAREZ: Because it`s Michael Jackson.


PINSKY: Jenn, there`s something really unsavory about this. Was Dr. Murray using Michael Jackson to pick up women?

JENN BARRINGER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, I don`t think there`s any doubt about that. In fact, she looked like she was about ready to jump out of her chair right there with excitement. You know, it used to be the case that if you were a mistress, it was something to be ashamed of. Now, apparently, it is some sort of like desired designation.

All four of these women, unfortunately, are paraded up there as Mark said. It may have something to do with the timeline, but what it really is is character assassination, and I`m sure it`s going to work, because it looked very, very similar to a case that I just had with Phil Spector where there were four women, parading out, talking about, you know, -- we never really had that much of a relationship before, but now, that there`s cameras in the court, we`re all over it.

These women were -- just, you know, Kato came right before the boom of reality television. Now, basically, what it is is that if you have a problem or if you`re a whore or a mistress or God knows what in a trial, you will have a reality television show. I don`t think there`s any doubt about it.

PINSKY: Mark, do you think they`re auditioning for a reality television show? That`s what they`re doing?

EIGLARSH: I don`t want to lump all four these women together. I think that Alvarez stands out. I think that she`s probably watching tonight. I think that she`s glowing. I think that she loves that I`m talking about her right now. And I think that it`s a perversion of justice candidly.

You`ve got someone`s life that was lost at the hands, potentially, of Conrad Murray, and that`s what the trials are about. So, I think that she brought something to the courtroom that should not have been brought.

PINSKY: And as you said, exhibit A for people that don`t like cameras in the courtroom.

EIGLARSH: Of course.

PINSKY: Kato, last question to you. Do you have any advice for these women on how to handle the media circus that they`re now in the middle of?

KAELIN: You know, it was very difficult for me, because I was involved in a murder trial, and I honestly, Drew, I didn`t go out seeking the fame. It just people recognized me and said KK wherever I went. I went in film premiers before that. I will just tell them that like -- the most important thing, fame, really, is fleeting. For this thing, it`s a very quick.

This trial is going to be over with very soon. Drew, look how many trials you`ve done already. It`s amazing. It`s like the people saying, I know there`s many trials out there, thanks for choosing mine, you know?

PINSKY: Wow! Yes.

KAELIN: I think Nicole Alvarez will probably on the show with the cake boss jumping out of a cake soon.

PINSKY: Mark is disgusted. Jenn, you`re shaking your head. Last word to you, Jen?


PINSKY: OK. Fair enough.

BARRINGER: He`s right. That is a frightening thought.

PINSKY: Enough said. Enough said. We`re all kind of making ourselves upset thinking about where this thing is going.

All right. Up next -- thank you to my panel. Thank you, Jenn, thank you, Mark, and thank you, Kato.

Up next, Raymone Bain, a former spokesman for Michael Jackson who were closely with him for over six years, joins us to give some insight into what was going on with Michael the weeks before he died. Please stay with us.


PINSKY: Well, we heard from my distinguished colleague, Nancy Grace. And at the top of the hour, my equally distinguished colleague, Joy Behar, will have the very latest on the Conrad Murray trial. Please stay tuned for that.


VOICE OF ED CHERNOFF, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Prosecution asked you, Mr. Walgren asked, to be fair, you could have put the bottle back in the bag. Isn`t that the question what he asked you?


CHERNOFF: To be fair, you could have taken a picture before taking the bottle out of the bag if it was there, right?

FLEAK: I could have, yes.


PINSKY: Welcome back. To be fair. Hmm. Day eight of the Michael Jackson death trial has wrapped up, and, although, the defense may have scored a pretty good day today, scored a few points, family and friends of the King of Pop believe Jackson`s death was solely the responsibility of Dr. Conrad Murray and his negligence and carelessness.

Rejoining us to talk about how the defense and prosecution are faring is Ryan Smith, host of "In Session" on truTV. Also joining us is a former spokesperson and manager and a good friend of Michael Jackson is Raymone Bain. Raymone, let me start with you. I understand in the months leading up to Michael`s death, you were having trouble getting through the sort of inner circle to contact him.

RAYMONE BAIN, MANAGED MICHAEL JACKSON`S CAREER: Oh, that`s correct, and thank you for having me on. And I want to say for the first time, thanks to Nancy Grace for her prolific defense of Michael Jackson. Thanks very much, Nancy.

I`m sure so many people will say ah, because we were on separate sides of the fence some years ago, but I couldn`t have said it better. I don`t know why you have me on actually after her. But yes, there was complete alienation. We could not get through to Michael Jackson.

PINSKY: Raymone, let me -- I`m going to interrupt you, if you`ll allow me. Raymone, let me interrupt you.

BAIN: Yes.

PINSKY: Let me answer that question as to why you`re here with us, and that is because I`m wondering if other people should be sharing the responsibility for the outcome of Michael Jackson, and I`m not pointing fingers necessarily except to say I`ve heard that the inner circle kind of closed in around him and that can keep somebody not well.

BAIN: Well, you know what, Dr. drew?

PINSKY: Yes, ma`am?

BAIN: Who was the inner circle? That`s what we are trying to figure out. So many people have called and asked, Raymone, who was in charge? That is a wonderful question, and I`m sure the family and the estate of Michael Jackson are trying to figure that out, too, because the numbers were being changed.

No one could reach him. His own siblings and his mom and dad were not able to get through to him. And this doctor was so careless and reckless in his care of Michael Jackson. He should have reached out to someone close to him to say he has a serious problem. He can`t sleep at night.

We need to have more advanced care for Michael Jackson. Hey, Dr. Drew, you`re out there. Somebody maybe should have reached out to you. Clearly, Michael Jackson had a medical problem.


BAIN: Not being able to sleep at night is serious. I have been around him for many years. He moved to Washington, D.C. for six months with his precious little children. Michael Jackson never sounded the way I heard him sound on that tape. Unequivocally, uncategorically, not. He could sleep at night.

PINSKY: We have the tape from yesterday that the prosecution played of an incoherent Michael Jackson. This was six week before Michael died. Listen to this.


MICHAEL JACKSON, MUSICIAN: Children are depressed. In those hospitals, no game room, no movie theater. They`re sick because they`re depressed. Their mind is depressing them. I love them because I didn`t have a childhood. I had no childhood. I feel their pain. I feel their hurt.


PINSKY: Mark, I want to go to you. You heard what Raymone was saying that this inner circle kind of closed in on him, and we`re listening there to the outcome of their having insulated him from the world, from good care. Do you think the prosecution is going to sort of or maybe the defense even is going to use that as a way of sort of limiting the liability that Dr. Murray has or is this just irrelevant to the case at hand and just a sad story?

EIGLARSH: Without question, they`re going to try to devalue to some extent the victim`s life by saying to some jurors who just don`t get the disease of addiction, look at him, he was an addict, he was desperate. And now, Conrad Murray is left, you know, to be punished for something that Michael Jackson did, a depressed, active addict.

I mean, that`s what they`re going to say. I don`t agree with that. It`s hard for me to get the words out, but that`s clearly what they`re going to do, and they`re going to use that tape to show that he wasn`t in his right mind, and thus, he wasn`t in his right mind to the time that he reached for those pills, and he ultimately caused his own death.

PINSKY: I think that is a pathetic defense myself. Ryan, let me go out to you.

EIGLARSH: Absolutely.

PINSKY: Yes. You were in the courtroom, Ryan. Why did Dr. Murray make that tape? Has that come up at all in the courtroom?

RYAN SMITH, HOST, IN SESSION, TRUTV: No, it didn`t, and it`s not part of, I think, anything we`re going to hear in this trial, unless, Dr. Murray takes the stand and explains it. I think that there are a couple of different theories floating out there. One of which could say that, you know, some say there`s nefarious intent here, maybe he was trying to blackmail Michael Jackson if something happened.

He did have a contract that if he was let go, that was it, he doesn`t get a lot of money after that. There`s another theory that says, hey, maybe he was trying to tape Michael Jackson so he can give him a sense of what he was like, you know, when he`s in the state, and therefore, he could play it for him when he was more lucid.

There`s so much going on out there, but I got to tell you, Dr. Drew, I don`t really see the excuse. I don`t really see how on one hand, you could say, well, you`re recording this. On the other hand, there were medical records found on Michael Jackson`s bedroom, but there was nothing identifying his treatment in the months of April, May, or June on the year he died, even the days before he died. So, where was the record keeping? Where was the maintenance of his patient?

PINSKY: I think again it was that special treatment that ends up being substandard. He wasn`t maintaining the usual medical record that you would for a customary patient. Raymone, back to you. I understand you`re quite upset that Dr. Murray took the liberty to make that tape.

BAIN: Well, I am, because number one, I agree with -- I concur with everything you all are saying. Why did he tape Michael Jackson? What was the reason for that? Number two, he had enough drugs in Michael Jackson`s house to kill three or four other people, not just Michael Jackson, and I`m very disturbed about it.

Last week, when I originally heard the tape, I didn`t believe it. Was Michael Jackson really truly? And I said, well, maybe they need to do a forensic. I heard all of it yesterday. I was heartbroken. Today, I`m angry about it, because here`s a man that does not need to be dead. He should not be dead. Michael Jackson should have been able to go over to perform at the O2 Arena in July of 2009.

This doctor was careless. He was reckless. He`s arrogant. I`m trying to figure out what was he thinking. His care of Michael Jackson was so flagrant. He needed to have brought somebody else in. He should have been fired.

PINSKY: Raymone, we got to go out, but I agree with you. What was he thinking? But he has nice toenails and a nice necktie now because I don`t know what he was thinking when he went out and did that across the --

BAIN: Let`s not forget he`s gone to Disney and everything else.

PINSKY: I`ve got to go. Thank you, Ryan. Thank you, Mark. Thank you, Raymone.

Up next, we`ll ask Raymone what shocked her most about seeing the "This Is It" rehearsal footage of Michael Jackson. Stay with us.


PINSKY: Welcome back to our program. We, of course, are in the second week of the Michael Jackson death trial where Dr. Conrad Murray is facing four years in prison if convicted of involuntary manslaughter in the death of Michael Jackson.

Rejoining us is former spokesman, general manager, and a good friend of Michael Jackson, Raymone Bain. Raymone, I understand -- I`ve got a couple of last questions for you here. I understand you were rather disturbed when you saw the footage of Michael rehearsing for the "This Is It" concert tour.

It`s playing alongside of us here, as we speak, so the viewers can see that. Can you tell me what disturbed you so much about that?

BAIN: Yes. And you know, let me just say that his mom and dad raised that issue when we were speaking back in 2009. Michael Jackson has on about three pairs of pants and four tops. Clearly, you know, and I`m not casting dispersions, no one is. That happens when you have people around him who haven`t been there to see a pattern of behavior or exactly, you know, that would observe anything like that.

But Michael Jackson, if you look at that tape very closely and some others, he has on three or four tops, and he has at least two pairs of pants on. He is cold. Something`s wrong. And, obviously, if you have a personal physician in the house, and he sees that his patient is having to have layers of clothes on in California where it`s not 30 or 40 degrees outside, there is a telltale sign that there is a problem.

PINSKY: And Raymone, I would tell you what, I think it`s because you actually cared about Michael Jackson, the human being, that you noticed this, and I suspect the people around him that were interested in getting him to perform at any cost, get him out there, he`s cold, put a blanket on him, and he goes out there, and it`s remarkable that he was performing as well as he did, given as you say, he was not in great shape.

BAIN: Well, you know what, Dr. Drew, sometimes, people try to give an appearance or say that they have access and they don`t. We don`t know to what extent those around him had access. There were some people blocking Michael Jackson. Who it was, I don`t know.

As I said, I`m sure between the siblings and the parents and the executors, they`re going to find out, because when you find that out, then I think you`ll find out what happened to Michael Jackson, because sometimes, people come out and say, we have a lot of access and they really didn`t.

I don`t think we will ever know until there`s a thorough investigation as to exactly what was going on, because I cannot imagine, I mean, what good would it have been for them to let Michael Jackson deteriorate? Look at what has happened. He has, unfortunately, died. Children have lost their father.

Parents have lost their son. Siblings have lost their brother, and the world has lost one of the greatest entertainers of all time. And, there is a problem here, and there needs to be just a little bit more research as to what was going on and who was in charge.

PINSKY: I agree, Raymone. I completely agree with you. And you opened our conversation tonight by asking why you were here. You didn`t understand why you were -- why I was going to speak to you tonight. I think now you understand and I think my viewers understand.

BAIN: Well, Nancy was so prolific. She said everything I would have said --

PINSKY: You added another flavor to this conversation. So, I really do appreciate you having come and joined us. Hope I`ll have you back.

BAIN: And thanks for having invited me.

PINSKY: Listen, I want to talk a little bit before we go out about the grilling of the coroner investigator, Elissa Fleak. You know, the defense is going after people so viciously, it`s as though they are trying to win at any cost, and it scares me that people are getting sucked into this vortex by the legal system.

I`ll talk more about it next time. Stay with us. We`ll see you.