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Possible Baby Lisa Sighting; Police Have Search Warrant on Baby Lisa`s Home; Missing Boy Found Dead?

Aired October 18, 2011 - 21:00   ET


RYAN SMITH, HOST, INSESSION ON TRUTV: Good evening. I`m Ryan Smith, sitting in for Dr. Drew.

Tonight, breaking news in the case of missing Baby Lisa Irwin. Cops got a tip that Baby Lisa was spotted about 120 miles away from her home. Could she be alive and safe? Take a listen.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where is 11-month-old Lisa Irwin? She disappeared from her home, her crib.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Deborah Bradley revealed that she was drinking that night.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there any chance you did anything to hurt your daughter that you`re not just telling us?

BRADLEY: No, no. And if I though there was a chance, I`d say it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police are telling a different story, though. They say the parents have not talked with them since the first week of October.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We keep the focus on trying to find Lisa, but don`t come to a conclusion before you have evidence.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eleven-month-old children don`t just walk away from their crib.


SMITH: Plus, Kansas City Police say Baby Lisa`s parents are not giving them the answers they need to vital questions. And the cops say Lisa`s parents have refused to do interviews with police for 10 days now. And they need answers.

So why are the toddler`s parents not cooperating, and did Baby Lisa`s mom change her story about when she last saw her baby? Her defense lawyer defends her tonight.

Now, we`re going to talk about this, but we`re doing something very interesting, very special tonight. There are so many cases of missing people all over this country, Baby Lisa has brought to light so many things that re going on in this country as the country looks desperately to try to find her.

There are a few other cases. We`ll also talk about and talk about why this is happening and what can be done when it does.

Let`s bring in my guests. Psychologist Lisa Boesky; Attorney Mark Eiglarsh. And we`ve also got with us CNN Correspondent Jim Spellman, who is on the ground in Kansas City.

And, Jim, let me start with you. What`s the latest in the search for Baby Lisa?

JIM SPELLMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ryan, just a few hours ago, we got word of a sighting in Manhattan, Kansas, 120 miles to the west of Kansas City. Two women in a delicatessen with a baby that matched the description. We`ve just got word in the last few minutes that that hasn`t panned out. They`ve cleared that. That was not Baby Lisa.

Some hope for a few minutes there for a couple of hours for people that that would be her, no such luck.

Here on the ground in Kansas City, searches today again in a wooded area near here using dogs. And we`ve heard from police that that also proved to be fruitless. So, still really essentially no closer to finding Baby Lisa.

SMITH: And, Jim, this information that`s coming out right now about the parents not cooperating. I can`t think of a reason why a parent would not want to cooperate in the search for their child, especially when they`re coming out and speaking, also speaking to their lawyer about all they want to do is find their daughter and keep the search on.

But what`s the real story behind this?

SPELLMAN: Yes. And it`s really frustrating investigators here. They have gotten over 550 credible tips that they`ve chased down. They want to have the parents as a partner in that. They want to be able to run things by them and see if that lines up with something that may ring a bell and they`re not getting that cooperation.

It`s been 10 days since they`ve had a meaningful conversation with the parents and they`re really frustrated. It`s really adding they tell us to the difficulty in trying to find Baby Lisa.

SMITH: And you know, there are inconsistencies in all of this, folks, and inconsistencies in the story of the mother, Deborah Bradley.

Take a look at - at this and to some of the inconsistencies that have been coming out.




TACOPINA: That`s now because what she said was she put the baby to bed at around 6:30. At one point during one of the 13 hours of interview, she has said she believed she checked on her at 10:30. It`s not an inconsistency. It may be a recollection refreshed at some later point, but it`s certainly not material to whether or not she had anything to do with the disappearance of her baby.


SMITH: You know, it`s interesting, all due respect to Joe Tacopina, it is an inconsistency that`s important, Mark Eiglarsh, because we`re talking about a four-hour difference. And, Mark, not only that, why wouldn`t the parents fully cooperate? Why would they need to lawyer up?

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Gosh, I`m struggling, here, Ryan. I want to give them the presumption of innocence like their attorney is requesting. But so many things don`t add up.

Let me first address the second issue and that is why are they not cooperating, obviously because they`re the primary suspects and they feel rightfully or wrongfully that they might find themselves stripped of their liberty soon.

But for me, it`s not just the inconsistencies. As a father of three, knowing that somebody came into the house, this is their story, and allegedly took two things, a baby and coincidentally their cell phones, you know, those devices that police use to know exactly where those people are and who they`re calling, they just happened to vanish. But that`s not what bothers me the most.

In another interview on another network, it was asked of these parents, "Did you try to call your cell phone?" Obviously the person who took this child allegedly had your cell phone. And her response was no. Well, why? Because we didn`t want to step on investigators` toes.

Let me tell you something, Ryan. Somebody tries to take my precious offspring, I am going to do whatever it takes, this wasn`t a 1984 Yugo that they took, this is a child. I would be calling and hoping and praying that I reached whoever took my child and maybe they want money and I`ll give them that money to get my baby back.

SMITH: Mark, I couldn`t agree with you more. You do everything you can to find your child. You don`t stop until you find the child. You`re up 24 hours a day.

And look, they`re saying that they`re cooperating. They`re trying to do what they can. But Lisa Boesky, when you talk about this and talk about what Mark just said and talk about police as Jim was saying being frustrated, trying to work along with the family, what are you seeing here?

LISA BOESKY, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I`m seeing very similar things that Mark is seeing. What`s more concerning to me is the other boys in the house. There are two stepbrothers that are really the only witnesses. They know they heard something, they are the clues and the parents wouldn`t let the police talk to them.

That I find the most outrageous, because that in inconsistencies, yes, that`s bothersome, too. And none of this means that they killed their child, but what it does mean is there`s something more to the story and they`re not giving it up.

But I will say this is different than the other moms we`ve seen when we found babies in dumpsters where it`s 72 hours or 24 hours after the birth, those are overwhelmed moms that can`t handle it or deny their pregnancy. This also isn`t the kind of parents who have older kids that disappear by a molester or a pedophile.

This kind of case is usually someone who wants a baby and so they steal a baby if they snatch it. Someone who had a miscarriage or can`t get pregnant, or it`s a parent who did something to their child accidentally and now they`re trying to cover it up.

SMITH: Man. And we`d like to believe they had nothing to do with this.

But, Jim, I want to go back out to you. Talk to us about what they`re saying and how they`re cooperating and anything else we know.

SPELLMAN: Well, we know again that it`s been 10 days since they have spoken with police, since the parents have, and those two boys, the half brothers of Baby Lisa could be essential in this investigation, 8 and we believe 6 years old.

Because if the mother was drinking heavily and perhaps even blacked out, they would be the two people that would have the closest, you know, potential to have seen something or heard something that happened that night. So them being cut off from police is another frustrating thing for the police that are trying to find Baby Lisa.

SMITH: All right. And as Jim said earlier in the show, you see it right there at the bottom of our screen, that earlier sighting, police believed that that might be Baby Lisa, believed that the search might be over and it turns out that it is not her, so the search continues.

And, you know, as we look at this story, and, again, we talk about the inconsistencies, the parents maybe not doing as much as they should, at least police looking for more input, there`s another factor in all of this.

And we`ve been talking about it for days. Was Baby Lisa`s mom blackout drunk when her little girl vanished? Because remember the store surveillance video showed her buying a box of wine that day. Take a listen to this from NBC`S "Today" Show.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you drinking that night?



BRADLEY: Enough to be drunk.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you were drunk.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of people are going to say, Deborah, you were drunk that night. Is there any chance you did anything that hurt your daughter that you`re just not telling us?

BRADLEY: No, no, no. And if I thought there was a chance, I`d say it, no. No. I don`t think that alcohol changes a person enough to do something like that.


SMITH: Now, she says she wasn`t drunk, and some people could look at that, Lisa Boesky, and say, well, you know what, at least she`s being honest. She doesn`t have to say that. She doesn`t have to say anything actually.

BOESKY: Well -

SMITH: But she`s trying to be forthcoming.

BOESKY: She didn`t say it in the beginning, so she may be saying it now because she has no choice to say it. What`s concerning is she says five or more. So we don`t know how many it is. But even more than that, it`s been reported that she`s on anti-anxiety medicine.

On the bottle of 99.9% of anti-anxiety medicines, it says do not drink any alcohol let alone five drinks or more. So when you combine anti- anxiety medicine with alcohol, it intensifies the effect. So it`s very, very, very likely that she may not have known what was going on.

SMITH: Now, she also said that she is sure that she didn`t harm her child. If you`re taking that medication and drinking, can you really be sure? Can you really know what you did?

BOESKY: I don`t think, A, she`s going to be sure what she did. I think, B, it may be that she doesn`t remember or it may be that something happened and she was so out of it, she didn`t hear what happened. But we know that this is a very bad combination, and clearly I think plays a roll in what`s going on.

SMITH: All right. Let`s keep this discussion going.

Coming up, cops scour the woods today looking for Baby Lisa Irwin. And the key, have they found any clues? They thought they had a big break and it turned out not to be her. There`s more on this troubling mystery.

Plus, as you know, HLN is all over the Michael Jackson death trial. Court was out today. But for all the updates, I want you go to We`ll be right back.



CAPT. STEVE YOUNG, KANSAS SITY, MISSOURI POLICE: If it`s coming out of (INAUDIBLE), I`m sure it`s true. But we`re telling you, we`ve followed up with tips all over the country. And if we get one that`s not local, we contact the agency where it is and they will look into it for us. So if we`re sure it`s true, I don`t believe it`s the one necessarily. (INAUDIBLE) to get excited -


SMITH: That`s Captain Steve Young. He is frantically helping to lead the search for Baby Lisa.

Now, tonight, police, crime scene technicians and detectives scoured a wooden area juts east of where Lisa Irwin vanished from her family`s home. They turned up nothing. They thought they had a lead and it turned out it wasn`t her.

But we`re hearing reports that baby wipes, diapers also found at an abandoned home where police searched for Lisa.

Now, CNN Correspondent Jim Spellman is in Missouri. And, Jim, you know, you did something very interesting. You walked around the area. You`ve got a sense of the home. Tell us what you discovered in walking around, especially in terms of how someone could access a little baby and take her out of that home.

SPELLMAN: Two important things. One, you can access the backyard of the house through a small public area with a stream running through it and get back there basically going to the front of no homes. And when you come back out, your car, if you had a car, you`re in an area that really just on the sides of homes, not on the front.

The second thing I discovered that I thought was very interesting is walking, you only have to walk nine homes down to the right and turn and you`re into a densely wooded area that we know the FBI and even the National Guard have focused their searches at least two times in this wooded area.

So when you really get into the geography of this neighborhood, you start to see some possibilities open up for how somebody could get away from this home.

Ryan, I want to bring you up to date on some important information. In the last two or three hours, we`ve seen police cars here in front of the Baby Lisa`s home. We just discovered that`s because the police here have a search warrant to search this home and have barred the parents of Baby Lisa from entering this home again. That explains why the police are here.

We haven`t seen them inside. We haven`t seen lights on inside, but we know they have a search warrant to search the home. They have searched it before, but now with the search warrant, not just the consent of the parents, and the parents are barred from reentering this home. They`re staying with a relative a few miles away - Ryan.

SMITH: Jim, how long are they barred for? This is just for the search or are they being kept out until police do everything they need to do in the home?

SPELLMAN: We`re not certain how long they`ve been barred. I`m sure that there - it could be interventions their legal team could make against that.

But, at this point, we know that, for the moment at least, they are barred and we expect a search here at any time.

SMITH: OK. So Jim, breaking news right here on DR. DREW, police doing another search. The family members, the father, the mother - Deborah, Jeremy - barred from the home while this search is conducted.

Now, Mark Eiglarsh, let me bring you in on this. Tell me about this. Is this common when police are doing a search, keep them out? They can`t go in until police are finished doing whatever they`re doing?

EIGLARSH: Absolutely. It would shock me if somehow they allowed the family access to the home during a search. One hundred percent they keep them out.

This is an enormous, significant development. They`re not going in there to see, well, maybe we can find something. They got a search warrant. That means a judge signed off on their right to search for specific items. They have something in mind, and hopefully this will lead to further this investigation.

SMITH: And, keep in mind, folks, you see it on the bottom, just like Mark talked about. They got a search warrant. But they can`t go in, they`re barred.

And, Lisa, let`s get some perspective on this. So now that they`re doing the search warrant, the police are looking in deeper, the family hasn`t been cooperating a lot, at least police are saying that.

Talk to me about their psychology through all of this, because essentially they know that they`re - they`re not suspects, at this point, but they know that they`re being looked at, that police are trying to pursue - and, by the way, police could be in that home just trying to look for clues.


SMITH: So it might not be anything that leads necessarily to Deborah Bradley or - or Jeremy Irwin, but still.

BOESKY: But, well, think about it - most people, when their child goes missing, say come in. Come in. Overturn everything, look at everything.


BOESKY: I have nothing to hide. Come in. Turn my place upside down. Come in.

They are actually taking it personally and getting defensive that people are looking at them so closely, which statistically we know that`s why people look so - the police look so closely, because oftentimes the family is involved. So I think it`s interesting.

From a psychological point of view, it is two things. One, my name is Lisa. I`m very sensitive to the amount of times people say the name Lisa. I`m always turning around.

Her name is Baby Lisa, but the parents, when you listen to them in an interview, often say she, her, she, her. It`s really interesting, if you listen to interviews, they don`t say Lisa very often.

SMITH: What does that mean to you? What does - what does it say?

BOESKY: That they`re distancing themselves from this baby. You feel so close to your baby, but I wonder if there`s some psychological distancing they`re doing by not saying her name.

SMITH: That`s incredible, when you think about that.

BOESKY: Second thing, psychologically, is more having to do with us as society and as a public and as parents. I think it`s easier for us as the public to think that there might be a messed up mom here or a messed up dad rather than accept the fact that maybe somebody came in and snatched this baby.


BOESKY: That is a terrifying effect for the - for the - it`s a terrifying thought for the public to think.

SMITH: It`s a terrifying thought, indeed, to think that that could happen.

Now, Jim, I want to go again back to what you did. You walked around that area, you got a feel for the backyard and surrounding crime scene. And this becomes very important. Let`s take a look at this.


SPELLMAN: This is the back of Baby Lisa`s house. It`s about 50 paces through this public access area, with this small screen right here. You can get to this from a side street without going by the front of anybody`s house, but you are clearly seen from all of the houses that surround it, if anybody were in the backyard or looking out at the backyard.

In Baby Lisa`s house, you can see this large, garage-type structure; a swing set; this camper, this blue camper that`s here; and then the house with the deck off of it. So, if somebody were to try to get in this way, they would have some advantages of not being seen. There are no street lights that we can see back here, so it would look like it would be quite dark back here.


SMITH: Hey, Jim, one thing that stands out to me, I hear a dog barking in the background. You`re there in broad daylight. Wouldn`t that dog be barking or making some kind of commotion if someone came in and took Baby Lisa?

SPELLMAN: Absolutely, and it would, one, call attention to perhaps, you know, if there was somebody back there. And, also, if someone had Baby Lisa and she was asleep, that could possibly wake - wake her up as well.

I think that dog back there would be the biggest obstacle to going into the backyard and back out again undetected.

SMITH: All right, Jim Spellman, thank you so much for that report.

Mark Eiglarsh, Lisa Boesky, stay with us. We`re going to be talking to you about some other issues that we`re bringing up tonight.

Now, we`re talking also about the Conrad Murray trial. Now, it may enter the defense phase when it picks up again tomorrow. See what his lawyers have planned at

And, coming up next, a mother is found brutally murdered in her home, then her 11-year-old son goes missing. His body may have been found today.


CHIEF TOM MANGER, MONTGOMERY COUNTY, MARYLAND POLICE DEPARTMENT: We believe that William has been here at this location since October 1st. We have camera footage of Curtis Lopez, the suspect in this case, with William at a storage facility. The footage was from the morning of October 1st. The clothing on the body appears similar to what William was wearing on October 1st.



SMITH: You know, as we continue to discuss the disappearance of Baby Lisa Irwin, it`s bringing to light a lot of other missing persons cases that are out there every day. And, today, we have a story of a young man who, as we look for Baby Lisa and hope that she is alive, this young man, unfortunately, wasn`t so lucky.

Breaking news tonight, a body believed to be 11-year-old William McQuain, who`s been missing since September 30th, was found just hours ago. Friends and neighbors who hoped for a different end to the story held two vigils for William. Let`s watch.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want him to come home safe, with no injuries. And if you know where he are (ph), just please let him come home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it`s very important that, since Jane has no voice anymore for William, that we be a voice for her.


SMITH: Young William`s father, Curtis Lopez, is believed to have stabbed to death the young boy`s mother, Jane McQuain, back on October 12th.

Now, joining us to talk about the tragedy of young William`s life, apparently cut short, way too soon, via phone with us right now in Maryland, Montgomery County Police Chief Thomas Manger. Thomas, thank you for joining us tonight.

MANGER (via telephone): Sure.

SMITH: Now, Thomas, tell us not only what`s going on right now, but - but how did you find young William after - after searching passionately for so much time?

MANGER: We had - we had been searching an area of about 30,000 acres over the past several days, and this morning, just after 9:00, two of our canine handlers actually located the remains of - of William. He`s found in a - in a wooded area, under some brush, that`s about 20 yards or so off the roadway.

We think now that he`s probably been missing - that - that he`s been in there since October 1st. We`re investigating this as a homicide, and - and Mr. Lopez is our primary suspect in the case.

SMITH: Now, you`re saying you`re investigating it as a homicide, Mr. Lopez, primary suspect. How did you initially make the connection to him, because first it was Jane that was found, now William. How did you make the connection to him, and was there any trouble in locating him?

MANGER: We did a lot of - obviously, spoke with a lot of witnesses, and we had just gotten some video footage of a - at a storage facility where Miss McQuain had a - a storage locker, and we actually a found video footage of Mr. Lopez and William at that storage facility on October 1st.

SMITH: You know, Thomas, one more question for you, how is this affecting the community of Montgomery County? We hate to think that something like this could happen to a little boy.

MANGER: It is - it is profoundly sad. I will tell you that at the scene today, my officers, all of them, tears in their eyes. I mean, we`re just - we were holding out that - what little glimmer of hope that perhaps we would find him alive somewhere, and, of course, we all knew from experience that typically in these kinds of cases, the news is going to end badly, but we were still holding out hope. And so, I can tell you, this has been a real tough case.

SMITH: Thomas Manger, thank you so much for joining us. Our hearts go out to the family members and, not only that, the community of Montgomery County. Thomas, thank you.

Folks, next, a crime so horrific, police - police describe it as an act of evil. We have the latest from Philadelphia.

Also, the Michael Jackson trial starts back up tomorrow. We`re going to be on top of it. In the meantime, go to (sic) for what we can expect this week.

We`ll be right back.



LT. RAY EVERS, PHILADELPHIA POLICE DEPT.: It looks like a dungeon. These people were stored like surplus meat in the basement.


SMITH: It looks like a dungeon. Those words from a Philadelphia police spokesman, describing the filthy and cramp basement boiler room where four mentally disabled adults were reportedly held captive for weeks. Watch.


SMITH (voice-over): Chained in this basement, treated like animals. Could four starving, vulnerable, and mentally challenged adults hold the key to a ring of abuse in several states? Two men and a woman are under arrest. Authorities say one of them had at least 50 identification cards. Philadelphia police and the FBI say the accused did it for the money, collecting benefits rightfully belonging to those they are accused of kidnapping, imprisoning, and assaulting.

DEP. COMMISSION RICHARD ROSS, PHILADELPHIA POLICE DEPT: Quite simply, this case just makes you shake your head. I mean, it`s despicable and unspeakable.

SMITH: They were found over the weekend by the owner of the building in which the captives were being held.


SMITH (on-camera): And tonight, we have breaking news in this case. A 15-year-old Florida girl missing since July is found alive, and get this, she`s reportedly linked to one of the captor`s sons. The girl`s relieved mother, Juana Rodriguez, talked to CNN affiliate, WPBF. Take a look.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`ve been worried since July 4th. Tell us how you feel right now.

JUANA RODRIGUEZ, MOTHER: I can breathe. I can breathe now because she`s doing good. I can breathe. She`s OK. I just want to hold her and love her and just -- I don`t know. I don`t have -- I just want to hold her. I just want to hold her.


SMITH: You know, folks, this case -- we see horrific cases every day, unfortunately, in this country, but this case just shocks the conscience. Listen to the conditions they were under. They were in a room that wreaked of urine that was too low for an adult to stand up in. The mattress and blankets were in the room, but there was a little bit of food found in this room, maybe a little bit of orange juice.

All of these adults sharing this room with dogs. These are the conditions that they were in. Joining me now with insight into the events unfolding in Philadelphia, clinical psychologist, Lisa Boesky, and we`ve also got Sarah Hoye, correspondent for CNN now.

Sarah, let`s first talk about this missing teen. Thank goodness, she was found. She was, apparently, connected to the same captors who abducted the mentally disabled adults?

SARAH HOYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That`s right. We were told earlier and even last night that this 15-year-old who was missing since July was found among the folks who were the suspects in this. Now, they`re not exactly sure as to how they kind of came together or what exactly she was doing here.

Police do believe, though, she moved here, and she was somewhat of the girlfriend or friend or somehow befriended one of the suspect`s children. So, she has been in the Philadelphia area since August and has been missing since July in Florida.

SMITH: And Sarah, how did they come into contact with these mentally challenged adults? How were they able to take them and put them in this room?

HOYE: Well, that`s kind of the mystery in all of this. The police do have such a big investigation to do. Some details they are keeping close to the chest because they do have to go to trial with this information. However, it does seem as though the ring leader in this case, Miss Weston, has been doing things of this nature possibly since the 1990s.

What we do know is that she`s somewhat of a predator of types, goes after people who are, perhaps, vulnerable, somehow gets them to trust her, and the rest is history. So, here you have these four people found in deplorable conditions, in that basement here in Philadelphia. One of the women, one of the victims who was rescued, if you will, has been missing in Philadelphia since 2005. So, her family now knows that she`s safe.

SMITH: Goodness. And thank goodness for the Philadelphia building owner who found these people. But, he talked about how he made this horrific discovery. He talked to CNN. Take a look.


TURGUT GOZLEVELI, BUILDING OWNER: I am the one who cut the chain and let the man free.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What were they saying to you? Did they say thank you? Did they say help?

GOZLEVELI: No, they weren`t talking anything. They were half dead almost.


SMITH: A person chained to a boiler. You know, Lisa, I`m trying to wrap my head around this, because I`m trying to imagine and maybe you can help us with this, what kind of a person, what kind of people would do this? I understand that there`s the money part in all of this, but this goes far beyond what we can imagine.

LISA BOESKY, PSYCHOLOGIST: It is. Well, she really is the epitome of what we call a predator. And what`s interesting is we always think of men as these predators, but she`s a woman and she`s just as evil. It`s all for personal gain. She`s really treating with her accomplices here, these individuals.

They`re humans just like you and I, as if they have no emotions, as if they have no soul, treating them worse than you would treat an animal. This is an evil person. And I think 30 years ago, she starved a man to death and went to prison for that.

SMITH: That`s right.

BOESKY: So, this is a long-term strategic thing that she has done. She had planned this out and did it very smartly. She`s gone from state to state. She`s moved them when she thought she was going to get figured out. So, it shows she`s smart, she`s evil, and we don`t see a lot of evil people. Sometimes, people do bad things. This woman is the epitome of an evil predator.

SMITH: It looks like pure evil. And, you know, Sarah, talk to us about her past. Not only that, they`re now trying to say that this is linked to possibly maybe 50 or so missing people all over the country?

HOYE: That`s right. Police earlier today said that this may even have more victims than that original 50 because what happened was, when they did arrest her, they found at least 50 pieces of identification, birth certificates, power of attorney forms, IDs. So, they are in the process of going through all these pieces of identification and finding out who`s who, who does this belong to, where are those people, how was she involved in this.

And like you had just said, in the 1980s, Weston was convicted where the boyfriend of her sister basically starved to death in a closet. So, she was convicted and did serve eight years. And obviously, she was out and able to do the things that we see now.

SMITH: And you know what, a crime like that, someone will be convicted. They`ll spend time in jail, afterwards, they`ll be on probation. But here`s the thing as I thought about that. Here`s the thing. After the probationary period is over, people are free to roam and do whatever they want. Police aren`t tracking them.

Probation officers aren`t looking out to see what they`re doing. None of that happens like and see how she might have been able to do this. Now, Sarah, another point here, not only the fact that this might have gone on in different states, but I`m wondering if we have details from the four who were captured in Philadelphia and what they`re saying they went through being trapped in this basement.

HOYE: There are some details from those victims who were trapped in that basement. They ended up speaking with one of the local stations here and just seemed very disheveled, confused. Some of them didn`t know where they were when they were first found in that basement. One of them had a birthday recently, didn`t even realize it was his birthday.

They kind of had no concept of what day it was, where they were, what month, what city. So, I actually had the chance to go in this basement last night. We were there with police, of course. And I had asked them to turn off the lights, close the door, which they did. And when that door slammed behind me, you got the sense of what it was like to be in that room.

Authorities are saying it`s about 15 x 6. This thing was small. It was dark. And the smell, the smell of urine and other human waste was so pungent, it burned my nostrils. When that door was closed, it probably took me a good 10, 15 seconds to feel claustrophobic, and I wanted out, at which point, I said please open the door, and they had let me out.

So, you can only imagine what their mental state was. And these are already people who are being classified as disabled or having some type of diminished mental capability. So, you can only imagine what that would do to be in a dark room, day after day? How would you know where were you?

So, there`s a lot of things that need to be figured out, and in terms of exactly what went on, how they were treated, and even in that basement room, there was no food. They only found water, and there was a bucket in which they used for waste.

SMITH: Sarah, it`s incredible. And, you mentioned being in there for 15 seconds and your reaction. They were in there for weeks. I can`t imagine what they went through. We`re going to stay on top of this case. Sarah, thank you so much. Lisa, you stay right here with us.

You know, switching gears slightly here for a second. The state is going to wrap up its case in the Conrad Murray trial tomorrow. I just want to let you know, you can get the latest trial news at

Coming up next, we have something -- folks, you cannot miss this -- a young woman who was abducted at the age of 13 and held captive tells us what it was like to be held against her will. We`re going to have that right after this.


SMITH: Stay tuned for Joy Behar at the top of the hour. She`s going to have the latest on the search for Baby Lisa Irwin. That`s coming up right here on HLN at 10:00 p.m. eastern.


TIFFANY DAVIS, NIECE OF HERBERT KNOWLES: The way they described him is if he was some type of animal, you got a chain in the basement, took all the lights out, got dogs in the same area, you have a bucket for them to use the bathroom.


SMITH: That right there was Tiffany Davis. Her uncle, Herbert Knowles, was reported missing three years ago and discovered this weekend. He had been held captive for at least the last two weeks in a dark, dirty boiler room of a building in Philadelphia.

Now, Monica Lukasavige understands the relief that his family feels. Her daughter, Jessica, was 13 years old when she was abducted by a man who held her captive in a hotel room for over three months. And Monica and her daughter, Jessyca Mullenberg, are here with me now. Thank you both so much for joining us and sharing your story.


SMITH: Monica, let me start with you. Can you give us a sense of what it was like when you learned that Jessica was missing? Take us through what was going through your mind?

LUKASAVIGE: Well, I first found out, and she was on visitation with her father, and he called and said she was missing, and I just let out a primal scream, and I knew then who had taken her, and I had been fearing that for a long time, but there was nothing that I could do to prevent it, and it was horrible.

Horrible, it`s the worst feeling in the world. My heart goes out to any mother who experiences that nightmare.

SMITH: I can`t imagine what it must be like for you in that moment. And Jessyca, if you don`t mind me asking, I`m wondering if you can take us through your abduction and what happened.

JESSYCA MULLENBERG, KIDNAPPED, HELD CAPTIVE 15 YEARS AGO: I was abducted on September 16th. And, I was in a writing club. And, I was supposed to get my book published, so I went with him. And then, I found myself I was tied inside of the car. So, when I woke up, I was very frightened and not sure what was going on.

And Oliver told me that, you know, my name was going to be Dave. Your name is Cindy. This is what`s going to go on. And I had to recite it over and over again until I had it perfect. Then, he took me to Houston. And then, I was there for three and a half months, and during that time, if I didn`t say something or do something right, I was hit.

I was beaten several times. I was raped, and most of my days were spent tied to the bed, and I wasn`t allowed to do anything.

SMITH: Jessyca, as we hear your story, and first of all, thank you for your bravery for talking about all of this. I know that one of your purposes is to try to shed light on what happened to you and also help others. Jessyca, when you were abducted and you were in captivity with this man, and by the way, this is a man that you knew.

This is a man that you were familiar with. Did you find yourself doing things to try to escape, find yourself doing things to try to get away or did he have this control over you, because I can`t imagine what it must have been like for you in this situation.

MULLENBERG: Well, he lured himself into our lives and my siblings from third grade to seventh grade, and by the time the kidnapping had occurred, he basically brainwashed me where I didn`t even remember my name. I went by Cindy, and it took me awhile to get used to my regular name, my old routine.

SMITH: Jessyca, as we understand this, and Monica as well, as we understand this, he took you from Wisconsin to Texas. He immediately began to change your appearance, your story. You just talked about that, how he tried to tell you who you were going to be. And I want to take you back to an interview that you did with "20/20`s Elizabeth Vargas" when you were talking about this. Let`s take a look.


MULLENBERG: When I got to Houston, he cut my hair, dyed my hair, and he would tell the hotel workers that the reason why that I would look depressed or sad was because my mom and twin brother had -- was just killed in a car accident.

ELIZABETH VARGAS, ABC NEWS: So, he concocted a whole story.

MULLENBERG: Story for everybody.


SMITH: Wow. I can`t believe it. And Monica, when you think about this man, this man who you knew and how he got contact and how he got access, what goes through your mind?

LUKASAVIGE: It`s the most scary, scary thing, because it can happen to anybody. He was our next door neighbor. And, then, he kind of followed us. We moved out of town, and he followed us there, and then, we became uncomfortable with that, and so, he moved back to our hometown where the kidnapping took place.

And then, he befriended her, Jessyca`s father, and was able to gain access to her through him. And it`s very scary how calculated they are and how they can plan these things with such detail and carry them out.

SMITH: It`s incredible to think about that. And Jessica, when you were rescued, take us through that, because as I understand it, police were talking to you, and he had gotten you to believe in this identity that he had created for you.

MULLENBERG: He did. Oliver brainwashed me for three and a half months where I didn`t even remember my name, and it was a really hard thing, but once the FBI from Houston took custody of him and then myself, we were back at the station, and I heard my mom`s voice.

And then, I remember, oh, yes, my name is Jessyca. And once I talked to my family, everything was a lot better, and you know, just had to work through a lot of things.

LUKASAVIGE: But everyone has to remember, though, that every day that she was captive, he would beat her and rape her and demand that she identify herself as this Cindy Johnson, and if she didn`t, the beatings and the rape would be harder and worse. And so, it`s an extreme mind game that they play.

And she was only 13 years old. She was just a little baby. And -- but thankfully, he`s in prison now until he is an old man, so there`s a happy ending.

SMITH: Thank goodness it was a happy ending. And Jessyca and Monica, I know you`ll stay with us. Thank you so much for sharing your story.

Folks, we`re going to take a quick break. And we just want to remind you that we`re still covering the Conrad Murray case. His defense coming up this week. You need information about this, the place to go,

Coming up, we`ll talk more to Monica and Jessyca and hear more of their story. We`ll be right back.



ELLA LOUISE DAVIS, GRANDSON FOUND CHAINED IN BASEMENT: He was a trusting person, you know? People (INAUDIBLE) something that he was anemic, you know. And I tried to get him to not have that kind of confidence in people.


SMITH: That was Ella Louise Davis, her grandson, Herbert Knowles, is mentally disabled. He was one of the four people discovered this weekend, allegedly held captive by three adults who stole his Social Security checks. This is about money, this torture about money. It`s unbelievable to think about.

Now, what`s strike me, I want to get back to Jessyca Mullenberg. We`ve got Monica Lukasavige as well, and Lisa Boesky joins us. Jessyca, right before the break, you mentioned that you were still going through some things. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

MULLENBERG: You know, when I hear of a child that`s missing or adult that`s missing, it brings back flashbacks and everything that I have gone through and what my family has gone through, and just, you know, the medical things, that`s a lot to go through, and you have them for the rest of your life.

SMITH: Jessyca, do you feel that there will ever be a time where you put this behind you or do you feel that you will live with the memory of what he did to you for the rest of your life?

MULLENBERG: I think it will always be with me, but I have a family now and a daughter, and she brings me a lot of joy and happiness, and that`s helped me out tremendously.

SMITH: All right. All right. That`s good. Thinking about your son and your daughter and how you`re there for them is just incredible. And Monica, when did you feel that you were at the point where you got the real Jessyca back, the Jessyca that you remembered after all of this happened, and what`s your relationship like now between you both?

LUKASAVIGE: Well, actually we have a wonderful relationship now. We -- she has a daughter, my granddaughter, and it`s just a wonderful, blessed feeling. We`re so blessed, but it`s taken years to get the real Jessyca back, it really has. It`s a long, long road.

She was tormented so. And -- but I feel now that the real Jessyca is back and that her kidnapper didn`t win. He couldn`t keep her. So, she`s back fully with us now.

SMITH: Well, you all are a beautiful family. It`s so great to see you both together like that, standing tall and sharing your story. We so appreciate that. And Lisa Boesky, what do you think we can learn from Jessyca`s story?

BOESKY: Well, I mean, it`s a horrible story when we hear what she`s gone through, but when we see the resilience and that she made it through, I mean, that is truly miraculous. I think the big thing for everyone to learn is we really warn our kids about stranger danger. Be careful of strangers. This man was very close to them. They knew him. They trusted him as most perpetrators are.

So, number one, that`s what you need to warn your kids about. Number two, that anybody who`s has been victimized, physical abuse, sexual abuse, or what she`s gone through, torture, that the victim did nothing wrong. These perpetrators are so calculating and strategic in manipulating, in grooming their victims.

And third, we have to realize that this is a lifelong journey. What Jessyca went through was literally like a prisoner of war. And so, it`s going to be years of therapy with someone who specializes in trauma, and she will probably be plagued with nightmares for a long time, not be able to trust people.

She truly is a prisoner of war, and I think great role model to anybody out there who thinks that they`ve got it bad. She went through horrific things and she survived.

SMITH: And Jessyca and Monica, we appreciate you so much for being on the show. Thank you so much.