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Investigators Search Baby Lisa`s Home; Murray Trial Today, Propofol Video; Today: Lindsay Lohan`s Worst Day Ever?; Fourth Arrest In Philly Dungeon Case
Aired October 19, 2011 - 21:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DREW PINSKY, HN HOST: Here we go.
Baby Lisa`s home turned upside down by investigators. I`ll tell you what I think the parents might be hiding, and does it make a difference?
Philadelphia dungeon case makes me ill. How can human beings treat others like animals? I`ve got thoughts about that.
The Conrad Murray trial is at a turning point.
And I can`t wait to sound off on how Lindsay Lohan is messing up her life.
We`re live tonight. So let`s get started.
We are indeed live from downtown Los Angeles. Welcome to the program. This is actually my first time being down here in these studios, where the Michael Jackson trial goes on just - just behind us here.
And for those of you that are sort of television buffs, you`ve noticed the big City Hall building behind us. My executive producer is completely enraptured with the idea that that was the - that was the Daily Planet in the "Superman" series on television. So those of you that were alive long enough to remember that, yes indeed. There it is.
There`s the - and by the way, it is an iconic - those of us who live in Los Angeles know that`s an iconic building that`s our City Hall and is representative of a class of architecture that really we value around here a great deal, but enough of that.
The Conrad Murray trial has just wrapped up for the day right here, as I said. On the other side of town - Lindsay Lohan. It`s another court, not these courts, across town by the airport. She`s got her troubles. She was hauled off in handcuffs today. Her probation having been revoked. We`re going to get into the details of that a little bit later.
But here`s what I want to just take a quick look at before we move on, is how - how not so good she looked. And there`s cause to believe, you know - look, whenever an addict doesn`t look good, you know what that means. And to me that`s very, very sad.
And here we are with somebody whose behavior flies in the face of a gift, which is probation. And, well, we`re going to get into the details of this a little bit later, try to figure out why she`s doing what she`s doing and what does this say about our legal system. Things hopefully - I hopefully can get into things that help you.
But first, breaking news tonight. New developments in the case of Baby Lisa. Investigators executed a search warrant at the home where Baby Lisa had vanished from her crib just two weeks ago. Watch this.
DEBORAH BRADLEY, MOTHER OF BABY LISA: It`s like they just walked in and just disappeared.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where is Baby Lisa? The 11-month-old has been missing now for two weeks.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cops have swooped back down on the family home, the so-called crime scene.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police and federal investigators are even digging in the backyard. What exactly are police looking for? And -
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is there now a war brewing between the cops and Baby Lisa`s family?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cops now say Baby Lisa Irwin`s parents are failing to answer vital questions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say the parents have not agreed to an unrestricted interview with detectives for 11 days.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now the mom and dad are refusing to allow the children to speak to cops anymore.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are two stepbrothers that are really the only witnesses. They heard something. They are the clues.
PINSKY: Well, it`s sounded like Baby Lisa`s mom, Deborah Bradley, may have had more than just a couple of drinks. She`s also apparently on anti- anxiety medication. She reports or admits that she may have drank to the point - may have drunk, rather, to the point of perhaps blacking out. Watch this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you drinking that night?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much?
BRADLEY: Enough to be drunk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you were drunk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of people are going to say, Deborah, you were drunk that night, is there any chance you did anything that hurt your daughter, that you`re just not telling us?
BRADLEY: No, no, no. And if I thought there was a chance, I`d say it. No, no. I don`t think that alcohol changes a person enough to do something like that.
PINSKY: Well, I don`t know about that. I`ve seen some pretty nasty things. But I`m - I`m willing to concede that it`s not likely. You`ve got to wonder, is she hiding something here and are there more to be revealed? This is just the tip of the iceberg we`re looking at.
I actually spoke with a member of Deborah`s family this week, and he - again, there`s all kinds of things circulating around out there. But just to report what I had been told by a family member, was that Lisa`s family has a long, long history of multiple generations of severe abuse, abandonment, neglect, and guess what alcoholism and drug addiction.
Whether that figures in here or not, I`m going to my guest. Criminal Defense Attorney Mark Eiglarsh; also Criminal Defense Attorney Lauren Lake; and CNN`s Jim Spellman in Kansas City.
Jim, can you tell us the latest with the police search tonight?
JIM SPELLMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This search, Dr. Drew, is in its 11th hour here. There have been dozens of investigators here all around the house since this morning. They`ve been searching in and out of the house, bringing ladders in and out of the house, all sorts of equipment in the white moon suits. The CSI unit`s here. They use those suits to not contaminate the area. And they spent a lot of this afternoon digging with shovels and rakes in the backyard behind a large garage, shed building.
We don`t know if they found anything. And the police wouldn`t tell us what exactly they`re looking for. But they`ve been at it all day. We haven`t seen this level of search here since Baby Lisa went missing over two weeks ago.
PINSKY: So it seems like for some reason they believe that the child or some evidence is nearby.
Here`s Captain Steve Young three days after Baby Lisa went missing talking about how the parents had become uncooperative with the investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPT. STEVE YOUNG, KANSAS CITY, MISSOURI POLICE DEPARTMENT: Tonight they decided to stop talking to detectives, and I don`t have to illustrate how that, you know, affects the investigation. It speaks for itself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Also today, Captain Steve Young made this statement about the parents of Baby Lisa. Here it is now. Full screen. I`m going to read this. There we are. "The last time that they sat down unrestricted to answer questions that when we need answered by them - excuse me - to be answered by them was October 8th. They have talked to detectives about tips that have come in, but all communications since the 8th have been on their terms, what they will talk about and no more."
Mark, let me ask you. What do you think is keeping them from being completely transparent, open, and honest if indeed as they say they just have no idea what happened to her?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, because, Drew, either way, you know, they`re either guilty individually or collectively or they`re completely innocent. Either way, sitting down and talking to law enforcement hour after hour after hour could potentially be draining. Either because you`re guilty or because you`re innocent and they just keep going over the same things.
So what we know now is if they`re getting a search warrant and they`re digging in their backyard, it further fuels my theory that I believe that law enforcement believes that these folks are the suspects. Failing a polygraph on the specific relevant question, do you know where your baby is, lies, well, that tends to show you who they`re focusing on.
PINSKY: Do you think that`s legitimate, Mark, or are they getting too focused too fast?
EIGLARSH: What do I personally think based on my 20 years of experience -
EIGLARSH: -- in the justice system? Yes, I do. I think she failed. I think she failed - I do. I mean, you`re asking me. I`m struggling to give her the presumption of innocence. If she`s not guilty, Drew, she`s doing a phenomenal impression of someone who looks really guilty. I mean, she has explanations.
PINSKY: All right.
EIGLARSH: So I`m not saying that she`s guilty. But her explanations just seem to come up short. Why she didn`t call her own cell phone knowing that the bad guy allegedly took her baby on the cell phone. I would be calling in two seconds.
PINSKY: All right. Interesting.
Now, Lauren, Deborah was seen buying baby food and a box of wine with her brother less than two hours before she allegedly puts Lisa into her crib for the last time. Now, apparently, Deborah, the timeline as reported by the mom has changed. How crucial are those hours in a search for a missing person, these specific - I imagine a lot of people make these calculations on where they were one minute to the next. Is that really crucial in the investigation?
LAUREN LAKE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, absolutely. I mean, in an investigation a timeline is so important. However, what you have here is a mother that admitted that she put her baby down and then went out to have some drinks. And we don`t know what else.
But bottom line is she admitted to being drunk, which means she really can`t give you a firm timeline on what she was doing because when you are drunk you do not have your full faculties. And I think ultimately what we want to get out of her is this exact reference, I did this at this time and I did this at this time. This woman is not going to be able to give it. Not to mention the fact she`s in a really, really just - I mean, a terrible state in terms of her baby being missing.
If Mark is right and there`s some chance that she is not guilty, which we will presume that, then this woman is completely stressed and trying to get a story out of her that is the same each and every time, I`m sorry, it may be difficult. It`s not always easy.
PINSKY: Lauren, I understand that. I want to make sure I`m hearing exactly what you`re saying. Are you saying that it`s reasonable that she be withdrawing and that she change her story and that she`s not looking, as Mark is suggesting, she`s not looking so guilty in your opinion?
LAKE: Yes. I don`t believe that she`s necessarily looking so guilty. I think she`s looking like a mother that probably feels guilty that she sat on a stoop and got drunk and had no idea that maybe someone was coming in to take her baby or doesn`t know what happened to her baby.
You know, I`m a big proponent of presuming innocence before they`re proven guilty. So Dr. Drew, I`m taking her for who she is right now, and I don`t believe that under these kinds of circumstances and stress you can expect a woman, a young woman, a young drunk woman to be able to recount a timeline from the night that`s definite.
PINSKY: I thought Mark was a defense attorney, too, Lauren. I thought he would take your point of view. But he`s already rushed to judgment on this case.
LAKE: He just likes to argue with me.
PINSKY: Hold on now.
EIGLARSH: I just want to know, how do we know - how do we know she was drunk? I mean, I don`t know. She says she`s drunk. Do we know that she was drunk or was that a convenient excuse so that she can explain why she`s inconsistent, why she`s changing her testimony?
I`m just saying. I`m not presuming her to be guilty at all. I`m struggling here, though. I`m having difficulty -
PINSKY: You`re right. There is a lot - you`re right. And there`s a lot - I want to get into this after the break. But there`s a lot to struggle with with this case.
I`ve been going over the timeline. And when you really go over it, it`s hard to really understand how she could have done anything. And, again, the window was found pushed in, the lights on in the house when the husband gets home. They call the police immediately as soon as he realizes something is amiss.
And I actually got a hold of some information that I`m going to reveal after the break. I can`t confirm it. But it threw doubt into the - into the guilt of the parents in my mind because there were other people involved here that I`m going to bring up after the break.
But the Conrad Murray trial resumed today with a devastating expert witness. We`re going to show you what he said later. You can go on over to HLNTV.com/MichaelJackson anytime for the latest.
Now, next, Deborah seems very confident that her Baby Lisa will be returned. That`s the mom is believing this. What does she know that we don`t know? Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRADLEY: Please, bring her home. Our two other boys are waiting for her. Please. Just drop her off anywhere. We don`t care. Just somewhere safe, where she can come home, please.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE TACOPINA, FAMILY ATTORNEY: Assume for a second she had nothing to do with the disappearance of Lisa. She`s a mother who is in a high state of trauma, who trembles every day and cries. And if - if her recollection sometimes isn`t what it should be regarding certain times of events, I don`t think we could really be too harsh on that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Welcome back.
And there behind me is the iconic Los Angeles City Hall. As I said at the beginning of the show, my producer, Bert Dubrow, recognizes this from the early "Superman" television series. Those of you who are not quite as ancient as he may remember it more from the "Dragnet" series. And those - I`m just - I`m being kind. Relax. And those of you that live here in Los Angeles, of course we all know that as our - as our City Hall. But those around the country, the courts are surrounding this little downtown area, and we are broadcasting, again, live from downtown.
That little sound bite you was just - you just heard was the attorney for the parents of Baby Lisa, Joe Tacopina. He was also part of the Joran van der Sloot defense team. Very interesting.
Now, these parents claim they have nothing to hide, why did they hire such a high-profile defense attorney, and one that`s associated with a case that - I don`t know.
On "Good Morning America," ABC`s "Good Morning America," we have an emotional mom, but very confident that Baby Lisa will be returned to her. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you hopeful that Lisa`s going to be fine?
BRADLEY: Oh, we`re going to find her. I have no doubt in my mind, we`re going to find her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you so certain?
BRADLEY: I just know, because there`s still a God.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Yes. I mean, I`ve seen moms be defensive. I wonder why Deborah is so confident when others are not.
Let me go back to my guests, Criminal Defense Attorney Lauren Lake, Criminal Defense Attorney Mark Eiglarsh, and CNN`s Jim Spellman in Kansas City.
Jim, just quickly, how is the community reacting to the Baby Lisa case in Kansas City? Is it front-page news there?
SPELLMAN: Absolutely, and everybody here has a theory about it. It`s the number one story on all the newscasts. Everybody`s talking about it.
But what we don`t see are community members out, leading searches, things like that. You know, I think that they would. I think that people want to be more involved. But the first question everybody asks me is how come that we don`t see the family out on TV every night, pleading for their daughter back?
PINSKY: That`s very interesting.
Now, we`re all following the case closely. We`ve got some theories. No surprise that Baby Lisa`s parents might have theories. They`re all - we all have theories.
Let`s take a listen from ABC`s "GMA." Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They have theories, you know, they`ve gone through in their head, scenarios and - and a list of people, quite frankly. You know, I - I`ve heard recently they`re - they`re now looking for an individual who`s a homeless person who was in the area and now has disappeared. You know -
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was the person you first heard about right after the incident, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was another report I - I read yesterday -
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So Mark and Lauren, I want to turn to you guys with that little theory. Do you hear what they`re saying, that they`re starting to look - it seems to me that they`re - they`re reaching.
Now, I want to - I want to send out something that I to you guys propose to, my attorneys here, see if it makes any difference to you at all. Apparently - if you remember, there was a neighbor with her all the way until she went to bed, and the neighbor actually was reporting when the lights went off in the house and whatnot. And I wondered - I kept asking, who`s this neighbor person?
As I asked around, I discovered that the neighbor - this - I can`t confirm this, but I - I was - from a source, told me that the neighbor`s estranged from her husband, and the husband was not allowed home that night and that there was some acrimony with the neighbors.
Does that shed some light in some direction that you guys think police should be following? I mean, Mark, you`ve already - you`ve already sentenced the mom. Don`t you think they should be looking nearby, since this was a -
EIGLARSH: No. No, no, no.
PINSKY: This was somebody who broke in from the outside, the - the light - the lights were found on in the house. Don`t you think that they`d be following leads like this?
EIGLARSH: Let me make one thing terribly clear - I haven`t convicted her at all, and I hope, quite frankly, I hope that her story is true, and I`ll tell you why. Because, statistically, it`s less than a fraction of one percent of those who report their child missing that actually goes missing by a stranger like she`s alleging. So, statistically, it doesn`t look likely that her story is true.
But, if the child does go missing by a stranger, they usually get the child back. That`s what the statistics are showing, so I hope that her story is true.
I`m not convicting her. What I`m saying right now is there isn`t proof beyond a reasonable doubt. If this went to court, as we`ve learned with Casey Anthony, we don`t know how this happened. One way or the other, we don`t know.
So this is clearly reasonable doubt, and that`s why I hope investigators are taking their time.
PINSKY: And I - I agree - I agree with you, Mark. We - we`ve become so accustomed to seeing a - somebody, a mom - not only that, but somebody who`s accused of something egregious lying and lying, we`ve almost come to expect that.
PINSKY: And so, Lauren, given that Mark is condemning this woman, Lauren, do you have any opinion about the - about this case?
LAKE: Poor Mark. We`re ganging up on you tonight, Mark.
No, but Dr. Drew, you really hit home with something that`s been bugging me. This whole drinking with the neighbor on the stoop, and the neighbor knowing what time the lights went off, and I`m thinking to myself, wow, a neighbor could also know the floor plan to your house. And a neighbor could also potentially get past dogs barking because the dogs would be familiar with the neighbor.
And I`m not saying I`m accusing the neighbor. What I`m saying is that there are other people in the vicinity that I think the police should also look at, in addition to the parents.
Look, first and foremost, we`re trying to find this baby. You know -
PINSKY: That`s right.
LAKE: -- no one is safe from -
PINSKY: And, by the way, you`re - you`re absolutely right. There`s a baby here. And Mark, again, I want to thank you for the statistics. Obviously, I`m just busting your chops a little bit.
Jim, last word from you. Ive got about 30 seconds left.
SPELLMAN: Yes, I think that neighbor is really essential. We don`t know exactly which neighbor it is, but the very next house next door, we know police have been searching in there. They took dogs in there just a - a few days ago and came out with some bags. We understand it`s not evidence but material that the search dogs used when they go to another location.
I think that neighbor is very essential, and the two boys that were also in the home with her, they wouldn`t let them be interviewed either by police. They might know the most of anybody if the mom really was that drunk.
Again, Mark, thank you for that data about it - if it being somebody that is not known to them being very unlikely and their child being found. It doesn`t add up to that. But, again, thank you to my panel. Thank you, Jim; thank you Mark; and thank you, Lauren.
When we come back, the physician who wrote the book on propofol - literally - and his damaging testimony. Did he derail Conrad Murray`s defense completely?
Go to HLNtv.com/michaeljackson for trial news. Day or night, it is the number one resource for the -
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR, STEVEN SHAFER, ANESTHESIOLOGIST: Probably your very first day of training, if there is a problem, what do you do? You call for help. That - before you treat, when it`s an emergency, you call for help, because you`re going to need it, and you`re going to need it now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The Conrad Murray trial resumed today. Anesthesiologist and propofol expert Dr. Steven Shafer took the stand for the prosecution`s final witness. There behind me is the city hall of Los Angeles.
He was demonstrating the proper way to administer propofol, and part of that proper administration is in a hospital. He talked about reviving a patient, using equipment and drugs that Dr. Murray did not have at Michael Jackson`s home.
"IN SESSION`S" Ryan Smith joins us. Ryan, this video that he put together, how crucial was it to the prosecution`s case? And - and did - was some of it withheld from the jury? Is that what I understand?
RYAN SMITH, HOST, IN SESSION ON TRUTV: Yes. There was a big piece withheld from the jury, and I want to tell you about this -
PINSKY: An important piece?
SMITH: Well, what it was, was it was the patient assessment and follow-up portions of the video, and it was also a portion of the video where the fictional patient seemed to have fluid coming out of his mouth, was intubated. Just the kind of stuff the judge would thought - this would be inflammatory here.
PINSKY: Too provocative. OK, got it.
SMITH: But - but I`ll tell you why this was so important. So much of this case gets confusing. It gets bogged down in medical terminology. I know you understand it so well, but us non-lawyers, we - us non-doctors, we - we don`t know anything about it, and it`s confusing.
This witness got up. He`s the father of propofol. He knows everything about how this drug works, right? So he looks at this -
PINSKY: I`ve got - I`ve got some propofol here -
PINSKY: Just so you guys understand, trying to keep it simple again. This is what - I`m going to try to hold it in front of your face there. There we are.
This is what a doctor puts a needle into and draws out. It`s a liquid substance and administered parenterallly, intravenously, so -
SMITH: So he goes and he displays this video, and by going through exactly how it`s administered and then touching on the ways in which Dr. Murray failed Michael Jackson, he just makes it clear for everyone to see, folks, this is what happens in a hospital. This is what would normally happen, and then this is what he did wrong. It really brings home the point of the failure of standard of care.
PINSKY: The - the distance between what a doctor would normally do and what was happening in Michael Jackson`s home.
PINSKY: Yes. It was extraordinary.
The other thing he kept getting into - well, first of all, he - he made a big point about them not calling 911, which I - which I think was a great point, and it was an important one because, you know, when - even - even when somebody`s trained in the basic cardiac life support, just how to do chest compressions -
PINSKY: -- how to do mouth to mouth, the first thing that is pounded in your head is call 911. Before you do anything else, call 911.
SMITH: Right. Right.
PINSKY: He didn`t do that.
SMITH: And he made that point so clearly. And he talked about the CPR. I was a lifeguard when I was a kid, and they taught us this when we were 15 years old. And you -
PINSKY: Call 911. Assess your resources, call 911.
SMITH: Yes. Call 911, start CPR, keep it going.
SMITH: But the important thing was he brought home the point of the standard of care. Folks, you wouldn`t expect this to happen to you. This is what happened to Michael Jackson, and it`s such a powerful witness to close off their case in chief (ph).
PINSKY: And then he also made a point about the - the patient-physician relationship and how adulterated - something that I`ve been hammering home here all the time -
PINSKY: -- how adulterated that relationship had become. He actually took it all the way back to Ancient Egypt and brought it forward to the present. And - and he closed with that, and to me that was - I practically stood up and gave my - a standing ovation for that.
SMITH: And he gave a history lesson.
SMITH: And he taught us why it`s so important to have this structure.
And, you know, even things, when he was talking about the medical records and why they`re so important -
SMITH: We learned something watching this -
SMITH: -- because we learned it`s not just about documenting, it`s about keeping the patient safe, it`s about emergencies and what you have available to you. It`s critical.
PINSKY: I`ve got to go, Ryan. Thank you for filling in yesterday -
SMITH: Absolutely. Any time.
PINSKY: -- and for always making my life easier by filling in. I appreciate.
And just wear - wear a tie next time you`re on, too. I appreciate you wearing a tie.
PINSKY: Wore a tie today, but not yesterday. I don`t - anyway.
What do you think about the Conrad Murray defense? Sound off at HLNtv.com/michaeljackson.
Now, the Lindsay Lohan drama is next. She could be your daughter. She could be anyone`s daughter. So how can she be helped? What`s going on with her?
We`re all shaking our heads. Stay with us.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Judge Stephanie Sautner surprisingly told Lindsay Lohan why she was not yet in jail. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE STEPHANIE SAUNTER, LOS ANGELES SUPERIOR COURT: Probation, as you know, as a prosecutor knows, and has always been my view, is a gift. And there`s something called looking a gift horse in the mouth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Right. The starlet did not meet her court-mandated service at a skid row women`s shelter, and the judge was obviously at her wits` end about all of this. Joining us, criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh, Jen Heger, legal editor Radar Online, and Dannette Meyers, she is former L.A. County deputy district attorney, who was the prosecutor in previous court appearances involving Lindsay Lohan.
Help us understand why Lindsay may never see the inside of a jail. Before you answer, let me just say, seeing the inside of a jail could save -- sorry, Lindsay, but it could save her life.
DANNETTE MEYERS, FORMER LA COUNTY DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: I agree with you, and I think that that was my argument the last time I was in court when I conducted the felony preliminary hearing and urged Judge Sautner not to reduce the felony to a misdemeanor, because had Judge Sautner continued with the felony, if Lindsay Lohan had violated her probation, she would be in jail with no bail.
Because that`s the difference between a felony and a misdemeanor, there`s no bail in a probation violation. With a misdemeanor, we play the same game that we had been playing with Lindsay throughout the time that I had been prosecuting Lindsay Lohan. She`d violate. The judge would sentence her to jail. She`d bail out the next day or she`d bail out that day.
PINSKY: And you know, an addics play cat and mouse. That`s how they survive. That`s how they get along. And it seems like the judge now, Judge Sautner, has had it, and yet, she doesn`t have a lot of remedies at her disposal it seems. There`s something going on in the state of California. Can you explain this to the viewing audience? We have a problem with our jail system, right?
MEYERS: We do. We have a problem with the jail system. I`ve been a prosecutor for over 25 years, have tried, you know, over 200 cases. And I have to tell you, this is the first time that prosecutors and judges have come to the point where people just are not going to be incarcerated in the county jail.
What happened, AB-109 came into play, and unless, you are a violent felon, OK, and if you`re convicted, you go to state prison. If you are a non-violent felon and you`re sentenced to state prison, that sentence can be served in the county jail. So, the county jail beds are going to be reserved for non-violent felons or people awaiting trial on violent felonies. So, there`s not enough room.
PINSKY: And everybody else is going to be out.
MEYERS: Everybody else, literally, will probably be out. Lindsay Lohan is part of that contingent of people who have been convicted of non- violent offenses or misdemeanors. They`re not going to do any county jail time.
PINSKY: Mark, I just want to ask you a simple question. Are attorneys around the country aware of the problem we`re having here in California, and is it a similar problem in other states?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I can tell you we`re all aware of it because of these high-profile cases. And I can tell you, I`m scratching my head and shaking it, like what the heck`s going on out there? Here, you do 85 percent of your time. No parole. That`s it. So, how could you expect anyone to respond and change their behavior knowing, as she does, that there`s no teeth to the law?
PINSKY: Well, Jen, that`s my question to you. So, we all shake our head and go, what`s wrong with our system? Why can`t we -- why can`t justice be served? And she seems to be getting away with so much. My thing is -- and maybe you agree with me, Danette. Poor Lindsay Lohan. This woman, we`re watching her die, in my opinion. And you know, I know her parents. I feel for them. And what is going on with her now?
JEN HEGER, LEGAL EDITOR, RADARONLINE.COM: She`s a young woman clearly in distress. You know, I believe that her failure that not comply with the court`s orders is essentially a cry for help. You know, Judge Sautner said to her today, you know, Lindsay, from what I hear, you`re an actress or you -- you`re a supposed actress. You know, that`s very sad for the judge to publicly say that to her.
She looked -- she looked really bad in court this morning. Her face was bloated. Her eyes looked bloodshot. She`s had issues with her teeth in the past several weeks.
PINSKY: Well, people have been sort of pointing fingers at her appearance. To me, she looks -- I mean, you know, anytime somebody with addiction starts looking bad, you know what it is. It`s just that`s the way it goes. But pointing at her teeth a lot -- I mean, she just -- she may be grinding her teeth. She may have bad dentition. Do we have to jump to methamphetamine every time we see somebody --
HEGER: But given her history, though. She`s been in and out of rehab for years.
PINSKY: But do we have any evidence that meth is part of the picture here? Does anybody know nothing? Danette`s got a little smile on her face --
MEYERS: No. I`m not allowed to discuss those kinds of things.
PINSKY: If that`s true, let me just say, if that`s true, it`s even worse than I think, because my fear had been that she`d just be getting prescription drugs and that she`s sort of justifying using medicine because doctors are prescribing them. It`s a Michael Jackson story all over again, and it happens all the time with celebrities. I`m here screaming about it every night. And here`s another example.
MEYERS: Well, I can tell you, Dr. Drew, you`ll remember when we were in court with Lindsay, and my offer to Lindsay Lohan was three years formal probation, 180 days in county jail, and rehabilitation. And we would have had that had Judge Sautner allowed us to continue with this case as a felony. That was based upon my 25 years of experience, my head deputy`s experience.
We saw what Lindsay Lohan had been doing with the misdemeanor charges and the continual violation of probation. And when you have a person like that, that`s why you have a felony, so you can do that, you can rehabilitate Lindsay Lohan. That`s exactly --
PINSKY: Again, it`s rehabilitation you want.
PINSKY: You got to contain her first.
HEGER: You have to get her --
PINSKY: But it`s not to be a mean person or retribution.
PINSKY: It`s to do to save -- this is what people, I think, misunderstand about the legal system when it comes to substance users. There`s a good use to it. At least an enlightened judge usually will require this.
HEGER: And let me tell you something. What did Dr. Conrad Murray and Lindsay Lohan have in common?
PINSKY: I think it`s more like Michael and Lindsay have something in common.
HEGER: No. Dr. Conrad Murray, if he`s convicted of his involuntary manslaughter charge, he gets sentenced to county jail. There is a very strong probability he will be serving his sentence at home under house arrest.
PINSKY: Oh, him too.
HEGER: If Lindsay Lohan is remanded back into custody, if Judge Sautner finds that she`s violated her probation, she could -- she`ll go back under house arrest. I`m told, however, the defense -- Lindsay`s attorneys are concerned that Judge Sautner could sentence her to up to four months of county work at the morgue.
PINSKY: So -- and that`s one of the worst --
HEGER: That`s the worst.
PINSKY: That`s the worst. So, she`ll be spending eight hours a day at the morgue, looking at the consequences of her condition. That doesn`t sound so bad to me, although, if you don`t also have containment over somebody with her condition, they`ll go home and get loaded in response to being traumatized in the morgue and then blame everybody else.
Now, Lindsay tweeted something. I want to read this to you. She say, she tweeted, "I just want it to be known that just because I was not followed and photographed during the times I`ve gone to community service does not mean that I wasn`t following my obligation by going, my obligation to the court."
Danette, my last question really is to you. One of my last questions, which is do you think she`s gotten to the point in there where she just doesn`t get it. She doesn`t even understand what her obligations are or is she just playing cat and mouse?
MEYERS: Unfortunately, it could be a combination of both, because the last time we were in court, when I had the case -- it`s now a city attorney`s case, but the last time I had the case, I was hoping that she would follow the court`s instructions. Judge Sautner gave her a break. This wasn`t the kind of case you give a person a break on.
She didn`t need a break. What she needed was someone to really catch her attention and say get yourself together. You have a lot going for you. Get it together before you kill yourself. And I was hoping that that what`s going to happen. It didn`t happen. Maybe, it will. I guarantee you, if she serves some time in custody, and that`s not going to happen, but if she did serve some time in custody --
PINSKY: It might get her attention.
MEYERS: It would definitely get her attention. I can`t tell you how many cases I`ve done -- PINSKY: Listen, I know a lot of my patients find recovery when they lose their freedom.
PINSKY: That`s a very common thing.
Mark, my last question to you, though, as a defense attorney, at some point -- and we`ve got less than a minute. At some point, don`t you go to your client and go, come on now, come on. Let`s just -- you know what I mean? Let`s stop the fighting and the cat and mouse. Let`s just get on with this and let`s get you some treatment? No?
EIGLARSH: In the past year, I`ve had to recuse -- I had to get off two cases. I had a conflict of interest knowing that my client essentially using me to enable the client to continue to use. Judge, my client was sick. No, my client`s high at home. So yes, you try the best that you can to get your client to go in.
But some people, as you know, I don`t need to tell you, are constitutionally incapable of recovery. I don`t know if she falls in that category. I hope not.
PINSKY: I hope not. I have faith for every patient. I have hopes for poor Lindsay Lohan. But I just -- I get this terrible feeling that something horrific is going to happen to her. Not necessarily death, maybe something worse. I don`t know. I keep thinking about her losing a limb or something awful, because her disease is recalcitrant, reckless, and we`re all watching it. Live.
And Danette, thank you for trying to do something.
MEYERS: Thank you so much.
PINSKY: Mark, thank you for your comments. Jen, as always thank you for your report. We`ll look for her down at the morgue doing her -- that`s where she`s likely to be, I guess.
HEGER: She has to do at least 16 hours before her next probation violation hearing.
PINSKY: OK. Now, news in the Philadelphia dungeon case. What kind of person chains four mentally disabled adults in a basement with no food and a bucket for their toilet? I`m going to tell you what kind of person, show you what kind of person when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LT. RAY EVERS, PHILADELPHIA POLICE DEPT.: It looks like a dungeon. These people were stored like surplus meat in the basement.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a very small space considering four people in there, about 6 by 13, I guess. Very, very bad conditions for anybody to be there for five minutes, let alone an extended period of time. It`s inhumane. There`s no question about that. It`s inhumane.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Yes. This is a disgusting case. That there is how Philadelphia`s Police Commissioner described the filthy living conditions that four mentally disabled adults were forced to endure for at least two weeks while they were held captive in that basement. And tonight, breaking news, as a fourth person is arrested, the latest suspect and three others are believed by police to be part of an interstate ring preying on vulnerable people for their government benefits.
So, how can one human do this to another? I believe there`s probably more going on than money, of course. I mean, just people have to be capable of this. And, you know, a lot of people like money and are not capable of something as egregious as this.
I`ve got psychologist Lisa Boeski with me and Walt Hunter, who is an investigative reporter for KYW in Philadelphia. Walt, what can you tell us about the woman who was just arrested?
WALT HUNTER, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, KYW-TV: Doctor, her name is Jean McIntosh. I think on this one you`d probably have to take the saddest, scariest parts of a dickens novel and overlay it in urban America in 2011. This is truly depressing
McIntosh, the other three suspects, a woman and two men, the woman a convicted murder, setting up these four mentally challenged adults, transporting them around the country. Finally in the beginning of October, they come to a seedy apartment house in the northeast section of Philadelphia. They`re taken to a subbasement.
The light bulbs are removed so they`re in total darkness 24/7 in a tiny space, only 13 by 3 feet wide. A bucket for their various bodily activities, fed twice a day. The last time they said they had eaten was the day before they had had a simple bowl of oatmeal. The way they`re actually discovered, Dr. Drew, is that a janitor finds a dog bowl in the subbasement, realizing of course there would not be any pets in a subbasement.
He goes down, investigates, finds one of them actually physically chained to a boiler. When they were removed, they all suffered severe malnutrition, old and new beating injuries. They`re now out of the hospital and in protective custody.
But their story and the story that evolved from that basement, Dr. Drew, is a story of horror that spread throughout the country, and obviously, indicated there are a lot more victims, some of whom have just been found.
PINSKY: It`s just -- it`s just awful. And you know, while you were sort of telling us the details, I started wondering, is this another failure of our criminal system where a convicted -- she was a murderer? Was out to do more misdeeds? Is that what`s going on here?
HUNTER: She starved a man to death. Her boyfriend. Slowly and agonizingly in the basement of her home in 1981, was convicted for that. Ultimately, got a 12-year term, of which she served eight and then was paroled. A convicted killer.
She, then, went back out onto the streets, the highways of America, and with her alleged band of thieves managed to bring in children, abusing them, keeping them prisoner, getting legal custody of them in some cases, in other cases getting mentally challenged adults, in one case off a dating tip line, and basically, keeping them under her thumb, under the thumbs of the other suspects through intimidation, threats, and in some cases, horrifying cases, alleged outright abuse that left one 19-year-old young woman who was just found yesterday barely alive.
PINSKY: This story, it just -- you know, some of these stories we report here leave me speechless. So, this is another one of them. The more detail you tell us, the more just sort of stunning this becomes. Our Philadelphia CNN affiliate, KYW, recently talked to three of the people believed to have been held captive. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you guys willingly give her your information?
TAMARA BREEDEN, ALLEGEDLY HELD CAPTIVE: No. She asked for it.
DERWIN MCLEMIRE, ALLEGEDLY HELD CAPTIVE: : She took it away from me.
BREEDEN: Hit me in the back of my head and all this was all bleeding and everything. She did this to me, too.
MCLEMIRE: That was real dirty of you. That was wrong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Lisa. Lisa Boeski, psychologist. What do we make of this? How do we -- you know, whenever -- I don`t know if you and I have talked about this, Lisa, but this is another kind of story about depravity. This is much more than just money, wouldn`t you say?
LISA BOESKY, PH.D. PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes. You know, you and I have talked about some really bad people. And I really don`t use terms like sociopath and anti-social. I really don`t take those terms lightly. But this is an example of sociopathic, anti-social, the extreme of perpetrating behavior.
I mean, she is well -- really thought this out, strategically well thought out plans. And you know, she probably groomed these people, promised them a warm bed, promised them hot meals, and then, obviously, exploited and abused them. And what worries me the most is that you And I would be disoriented in that hole of a cell.
And think about these individuals who have mental health disorders, developmental disabilities. I`m sure she`s not giving them their medication. So, not just their safety but the short-term effects of this as well as the long-term consequences is devastating and unconscionable.
PINSKY: Well, here we go. We`re going to take a look at some of the images from inside that boiler-room where the victims were discovered. It looks, I mean, terrifying. No wonder investigators are calling it a dungeon. A 15 by 15 area crammed with four adults with varying degrees of mental disability. No food, no ventilation, no light.
A shared bucket that they used as a toilet. These captors did not see -- clearly could not understand these captives as people. They were, amongst other things, dollar signs to this group of greedy individuals who were taking advantage of their disabilities to steal money, strip them of their dignity, and even worse, I mean this is the worst that humanity has to offer.
And Lisa, I`m going to ask you two questions. Can we learn anything from this story? Let me ask you sort of positive story. And then, you know, whenever we hear about these people being held captive, there`s always weird sexual acting out and stuff on them. One of these women had two children in captivity. Do you think that was part of the torture these poor people went through?
BOESKY: Well, let me answer the first question first, which was what we can learn from this is there are millions, millions of individuals with severe mental health and developmental disabilities that don`t have anybody to protect them. We`ve had severe cuts in mental health budgets and more are probably coming. So, there aren`t people looking out for them.
So, one of the things is this is such a wake-up call for people if they have family members, neighbors, or friends, to know what these people are doing, who they`re interacting with, where their money is going, because they`re so ripe for this kind of abuse and neglect. But I also think it`s a wake-up call to some of our government-assisted programs. They should be checking into her background.
She should not have been able to receive that money. And if agencies are allowing that, they should be consequence for that. I feel like we`re not holding anybody accountable. So, I think this is a huge wake-up call. She`s not the only person who`s doing this. She`s not. This is just the tip of the iceberg. There are plenty of other people doing this as well.
PINSKY: Horrible to hear. And I assume you agree with me on the other form of torture that they no doubt were subject to. Would you not? I`ve got ten seconds.
BOESKY: Absolutely. Absolutely. No doubt about it. Absolutely. That`s the worst part of it. And I think that`s the depravity.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes. Disgusting.
All right. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you, Walt.
The defense readies its case for Friday in the Murray trial. In the meantime, check out hlntv.com/michaeljackson.
And up next, how do the victims of this horrifying story of being kept in a dungeon and tortured, how do they move on, and how did we fail them as a society? We`re going to revisit this for a few minutes after we return.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCLEMIRE: I escaped one time to one of the houses that we used to live in, and I didn`t get away, so they got me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH HOYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This thing was small. It was dark. And the smell, the smell of urine and other human waste was so pungent it burned my nostrils. When that door was closed, it probably took me a good 10, 15 seconds to feel claustrophobic, and I wanted out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was CNN`s Sarah Hoye describing her terrifying experience inside the Philadelphia dungeon where four mentally disabled adults were held captive. Walt, I want to thank you again for your report. It was really one of the most complete reports I`ve heard on this topic, and it was -- I`m sorry to say -- chilling, but can you tell us how the victims are doing today?
HUNTER: Dr. Drew, I`ll start with Beatrice shot in the ankles with pellet guns, burned with hot spoons, causing burns on her body, beaten, locked in a closet for the last three days before she was just found. She is now in protective custody as are the other children. They are all going to be OK for the physical scars. The emotional scars, as you well know, we don`t know what`s going to become of them in the future.
There may be other children out there. There are real concerns. And I think, Dr. Drew, if you heard today, the mayor, the police commissioner, the district attorney, all relatively hardened, mature people, when they talked about this little girl, Beatrice, in every major crime there is always a face, there is always an image that attaches to that crime, whether it`s Megan`s Law or any other terrible crime.
In this case, it was the face of Beatrice. It was the horror of Beatrice. She`s OK. These children are OK. The agonizing question right now, are there other children out there or adults perhaps? And perhaps, are there some that may not still be alive? This is very much to be continued.
PINSKY: Walt, and we will keep very close to you in this story. And I want to thank you again for filing that report with us, again, tonight. Lisa, my last question is to you. So, you said we have failed these people. I guess, I have, again, two questions. Is it going to be more difficult for them to get over this horror because of their disabilities, A?
And b, exactly what do we need to do? I really feel like we have failed drastically, as you do. As a -- I mean, it`s an indictment of our entire system. What do we need to do? A, more tough for them? B, really what can we do here?
BOESKY: Well, for the first thing, you know, just because they may have a mental health disorder or developmental disability and may not have even realized what was going on, that doesn`t impact the effect of the trauma. So, they are likely to have, I believe, a lot of traumatic aftereffects of this.
So, a lot of increased arousal, nightmares, flashbacks, a lot of fear in close space and darkness, the smell of urine. They may not know why they`re panicking or freaking out, but they will really be panicking and freaking out because it reminds them of this horrible event. So, I think it`s going to be a long row to hoe for them.
Second, I think, what we can do, I mean, I think that we have to -- I think the bond set for her was very high, and I`m glad for that. I think, number one, there has to be severe consequences for this woman and if needs to be advertised to everyone, so that other people who are doing this know it is not worth the consequences or if people are thinking about doing this, it`s not worth the consequences.
It goes so deep how we failed them. It`s the government. It`s our own families who lose track of some of our family members because of their disabilities. It`s the mental health system who lets people fall through the cracks. It`s unconscionable. It`s unconscionable, but it`s happening every day.
PINSKY: Lisa, I agree. I think it`s every -- we have to check ourselves, every one of us. If we know of someone with disability, if we are involved with systems with disabled people or elderly people or people who are incumbent upon our care, we need to check ourselves. I want to thank --