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Baby Lisa`s Home Searched for 17 Hours; Jackson Death Trial
Aired October 20, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Tonight, the Conrad Murray trial continues. This is the final resting place for the King of Pop, Forest Lawn Mortuary.
Now, did the death occur by his own hands or the hands of Dr. Conrad Murray?
Will the secret of Michael Jackson forever remained buried here at Forest Lawn or will a jury just a few miles down the road in downtown Los Angeles find Dr. Conrad Murray guilty of manslaughter and give Michael Jackson justice?
Did this really have to be?
Ryan, back to you at the courthouse.
RYAN SMITH, HOST, IN SESSION: All right. Thank you, Drew. Really appreciate that.
Good evening. I`m Ryan Smith sitting in for Dr. Drew. And we`ll have a trial update shortly. And Drew is going to be back a little later with his special guest, Lisa Ling.
But first tonight, the Baby Lisa mystery deepens. There are a minute- to-minute updates coming in on the story as everyone is looking furiously to find this little baby.
Now, the police were in Baby Lisa`s home for about 17 hours. They even used an x-ray machine. Now, that`s not usual in many cases. They took computer hard drive out of the home. Still, no new leads. Take a look.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police got a search warrant for the home of missing Baby Lisa Irwin and they were outside the Kansas City house with shovels. Lisa`s parents are not allowed back in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New evidence taken from the home of missing Kansas City baby Lisa Irwin. What were the police looking for?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re also focused on the backyard, using shovels and rakes to search an area behind a shed in the backyard. This is a tunnel, sort of a drainage tunnel. You can see that this is a place where people come from time to time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators keeping quiet about what, if anything, they found, but there are growing questions tonight about Baby Lisa`s mom and just what she really knows.
DEBORAH BRADLEY, BABY LISA`S MOTHER: We need her home.
SMITH: Well, do the parents know more than they`re telling authorities? Here`s a high power attorney Joe Tacopina, firmly defending his client, the baby`s mom on changing her story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE TACOPINA, FAMILY`S ATTORNEY: Assume for a second she had nothing to do with the disappearance of Lisa. She`s a mother who is in a high state of trauma, who trembles every day and cries, and if - if her recollection sometimes isn`t what it should be regarding certain times of events, I don`t think we could really be too harsh on that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: All right. So he`s standing by Deborah Bradley. Jeremy Irwin as well in this, but they`re looking for their child.
Police are asking the question, are they cooperating, can more be done as they continue this investigation. Former FBI criminal profiler and host of "Facing Evil with Candice Delong" on Investigation Discovery, Candice Delong is with us. And in Kansas City, in front of Baby Lisa`s home, CNN Correspondent Jim Spellman.
And, Jim, I`ll start with you because there are updates in this story minute to minute and that`s why we`re trying to stay on top of it. Jim, what is the latest?
JIM SPELLMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Seventeen hours of intense searching here yesterday, Ryan. By far the most intense search we`ve seen, the most technological search inside. Investigators focused on using x-ray technology. They`ve brought a bomb squad unit out that`s equipped with technology that lets them potentially looks inside walls, floor boards, pipes, that sort of thing.
And in the outside of the house behind a large garage shed structure for hours, we watched investigators in white, CSI-style suits, armed with shovels and rakes dig and clear away an area. We were able to get very close to there today and check it out and they cleared out an entire area of brush behind this - behind this shed. They even bagged the shovels they were using and took those away with them.
We don`t know what they found. We know they found some sort of evidentiary material that they took with them, whether it will help lead ultimately to Baby Lisa we still don`t know at this point, Ryan.
SMITH: All right. Candice Delong, talk to me about these x-ray machines they`re using looking into floors, pipes, drains, walls. And they`re not talking about what they found. What does this sound like to you from investigations that you pursued, and is this high tech equipment usual in these kinds of investigations?
CANDICE DELONG, FORMER FBI AGENT-PROFILER: Well, of course, as technology progresses, we see more and more of these things being used at crime scenes, but it certainly looks to me like they believe that there`s a high probability that Baby Lisa may be, her body, may be or they will find evidence that something happened in her own home.
Statistically, it`s not a bad place to start the investigation of a missing child because the vast majority of the time, a very high percentage, well over 90 percent, the time a child of these tender - she`s not even of tender years, she is not even a year yet goes missing, one of the last known adult caregiver of the - of the child had something to do with their disappearance, so it`s not a bad place to start.
SMITH: And, you know, that`s the last thing we want to think about happened here obviously, all of us, hoping that she`s alive, hoping that she`s found soon.
And Jim Spellman, you know, we talk about looking at the family in all of this, looking at those pipes, those walls, we don`t want to think the unthinkable in a case like this.
But the family, can you tell us where we are in terms of them cooperating with police? You and I have been talking about this, and it just seems to me that if police are now looking in pipes, walls in their home, that the family would now have a heightened degree of wanting to speak to police and share anything they know and help with the investigation.
SPELLMAN: Yes. It`s very unusual, Ryan. It`s been 12 days since the police have been able - been able to interview the parents in an unrestricted way. Since then, they`ve given limited cooperation and we know that they`ve given consent to search the home and that they`ve given some hair samples.
But interestingly, yesterday`s search came as a result of a search warrant. Previously, they had been giving consent to search and those were much more modest searches. We saw once with the dogs, other times with a handful of investigators. This was an assault, dozens of investigators here working for 17 hours.
The police here are growing ever more frustrated that they`re not able to have unrestricted access to this family. And a lot of people even in the community are saying why not, why are you not speaking to the police, and why are you not even coming out and being on TV and saying help us every day. We`ve seen that from parents in the past.
A lot of that is just - it`s raising, you know, a lot of questions about these parents. And there`s no way around it.
SMITH: Absolutely, Jim. And you bring up the question of why not, neighbors asking that.
I`ve got to think when police are looking in this manner, and, again, we don`t want to think about the worst here, but why not? Why not do everything you can to help them out?
Candice Delong, let`s talk about - I know you`re a profiler, and let`s talk about what you think is the profile of someone who might kidnap a little baby girl like this. What does it sound like to you from what you`re hearing about this case?
DELONG: Well, we have no real indication that she was kidnapped, but I can tell you that if she were, by a stranger, it would fall into the category almost of what we would call an infant kidnapping. Although usually when we see babies that can`t even walk yet being taken, it`s really the newborns where some woman wants to replace a child she lost or desperately wants a baby and she takes another woman`s baby.
Lisa was 10 months old. She was furniture crawling. She was babbling. It would be pretty unlikely - but let me tell you this. The odds that a stranger or a neighbor or someone like that came in the house and took her versus something accidental happened to her in the house by someone that she knows and cares for her, those odds are higher than that a stranger came in and took her.
SMITH: Wow. Oh, goodness.
Now, Candice, let`s talk about the father here, Jeremy. And police are saying they don`t have any suspects. Want to make that clear.
SMITH: The family themselves, Deborah, Jeremy, they`re not suspects, but, you know, we are talking about different avenues, different angles here because we`re all searching and asking questions.
So what about the dad? Take a look at him talking to the media. And the question becomes does he know something? Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEREMY IRWIN, CHILD`S FATHER: When I came home from work, the front door was unlocked, most of the lights were on in the house, and the window was - in the front was open. Obviously all very unusual and then I started checking on the kids. Checked on the boys first and then we checked on her, that`s when we realized she was gone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: Now, you see his reaction there. He`s obviously devastated.
And Candice, what about Jeremy? And, again, we`re just asking the question here. Do you think that he would be any way involved in this? How do you determine whether he would be and rule him out if you do?
DELONG: Sure. Well, it`s my understanding based on what I`ve seen and read about this that he is completely what we call alibied out. He was at work as a contractor working on an assignment away from the home when it is likely that Lisa disappeared or something happened to her. That is my understanding.
I don`t think we can read much. Let`s say he was not alibied out, all right? I don`t think we can read much into his demeanor at this press conference. I don`t know what his demeanor, what his personality, what his behavior, what his speech patterns are like prior to this event. Probably no one does except his close family.
But people under extreme stress of a child being missing are not going to act the way they normally do. However, that said, it is my understanding he is completely alibied out for many, many hours, prior to her being put to bed by her mother and after being put to bed by her mother and he comes home. By the way, he comes home to a house with all the lights on?
SMITH: Right. It`s unbelievable to think about.
DELONG: I am thinking someone who would enter the house and take a child out probably wouldn`t leave a bunch of lights on. Would you if you -
SMITH: You know, it`s -
DELONG: -- were taking a child out of a home?
SMITH: Candice, that`s an excellent point that you make right there.
And, Jim, I have just a quick second here. Jim, do we know where the search goes next?
SPELLMAN: I`m sorry, Ryan, I didn`t catch that. But I know that the father came home and reported the lights were on.
Look, regardless of whether anybody did anything or not, the fact that - here`s what investigators want to know. What was different this day than other days and we know that it was the first time, the only time that we know of that the father worked this overnight shift. So normally the father would have been home in the house.
If the mom drinks, would the husband usually put the kids to bed himself, what was his role on a normal night? Those differences are all some of the things investigators need to know about as they assemble this timeline. What was different that night is one of the first things investigators will always look at, Ryan.
SMITH: All right. Jim, thank you so much. Candice, thank you, as well.
And, again, we`re just asking the questions here, trying to find out. We`re all in the same boat, right? Where is she and what are investigators and they`re doing everything they can to try to find Baby Lisa.
Next up, the Conrad Murray trial. Now, a propofol drip demonstration happened in the court. I want you to go to HLNTV.com/MichaelJackson for the very latest. And we`re going to talk about what happened in the courtroom right after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. STEVEN SHAFER, ANESTHESIOLOGIST: And with the ending circulation, Michael Jackson has died, but he`s died with the infusion running.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: Tonight, a big day in court in the Conrad Murray trial. Now, court resumes tomorrow and the prosecution`s going to rest at that point. And, you know, as we look at the case now, they pretty much laid out their case.
But, here comes the question. This is the question that everybody`s asking. Can they prove how Michael Jackson died? And here`s another question - is it necessary that they do? Do they have to connect Dr. Murray to the fatal dose of propofol?
Now, Dr. Murray - a doctor performs a demonstration in court of how Michael Jackson got the propofol through Dr. Murray`s makeshift IV. This was a powerful moment in court. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHAFER: This is the injection port. This attaches to the IV catheter, in this case just below the left knee. So this attaches to the catheter, and this is where the injections of drugs would be made.
But here, it`s all the way open. But, because of the difference in gravity, it`s not running at all. On the other hand, if this line gets turned off, now it`s running too fast.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: Talk about a powerful visual aid. That`s what you want to do for a jury, show them exactly what happened in your minds. But was that propofol show and tell a slam dunk or was it confusing?
That doctor literally wrote the book on propofol, and he testified today that there was no way the pop star could have caused his own death by swallowing the drug. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID WALGREN, PROSECUTOR: Did Dr. White suggest that Michael Jackson may have orally consumed propofol, causing his death?
SHAFER: Yes, he did.
WALGREN: What was your reaction to that?
SHAFER: I - I was disappointed, because it`s not possible. Propofol is so rapidly metabolized by the liver that very little propofol gets past the liver.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: And that part about swallowing propofol was very interesting. You saw another face there. That`s because he was criticizing, in a sense, the defense`s witness on propofol, who wrote a report saying that propofol may have been drank in by - by Michael Jackson in this case.
So, he`s got his friend right there in front of him, a guy he`s known for years, and he says, on the stand, I was disappointed in that study. So that poked a huge hole in the defense`s original case. Good thing they scratched that theory, saying that Michael died from swallowing lorazepam instead. But will these changing explanations of what happened harm their case?
Let`s go straight to my guest. With me, I`ve got correspondent on "IN SESSION" on TRUtv, Beth Karas; also, attorney Lauren Lake; and anesthesiologist Dr. John Dombrowski. And all of you are here to talk about what happened in court today.
And, Beth, let me start with you. You know, we look at what happened today. It was at times confusing. It was a lot of discussion about how propofol works in this system and how this setup was. But, at the end of the day, did they prove, did they show that Dr. Murray was somehow responsible for Michael Jackson`s death?
BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION" ON TRUTV: I was in the courtroom for that entire demonstration, and, I must say, it really was riveting. I don`t know how the prosecutor could have made it simpler.
He had PowerPoint presentations. Dr. Shafer was - was, you know, very basic in - tried to be very basic in his explanation, and the jurors were engaged. They were standing up. They were looking over. The judge permitted that as this demonstration, you know, unfolded in front of them, and put together all of the evidence they heard over the last few weeks.
I mean, and it seemed to rule out any other possibility except that this drip was set up, Michael Jackson`s heart stopped beating, so the propofol was no longer metabolizing. It wasn`t breaking down, and it kept dripping into him, it kept spilling into his body, and that`s why he had the level he had when he died - at autopsy, when they found him.
SMITH: And that`s critical because that`s the closest thing they have right now to saying this is what caused the fatal blow to Michael Jackson.
KARAS: It`s the only explanation that Dr. Shafer could come up with for that level of propofol in his - what`s called femoral blood at autopsy.
SMITH: Now, Dr. Dombrowski, as you were checking it and watching this testimony today and - and seeing his explanation, when you talk about alternatives, the defense is always going to try to poke holes and say, well, it could have been this. How do we know Michael Jackson may not have taken it himself in some way?
As you saw this, do you maybe see it the same way, that the only way that Michael Jackson could have died is for this propofol to basically stream through this IV, as he`s showing right there, and slip into his bloodstream? And, because Dr. Murray wasn`t in the room, all of this happened possibly unbeknownst to him?
DR. JOHN DOMBROWSKI, MEDICAL DIRECTOR, THE WASHINGTON PAIN CENTER: Well, this is a huge mistake. We, as anesthesiologists, never use this type of system to infuse a medication. You are essentially mixing IV fluids to hydrate the patient. I think that supposedly Dr. Murray was doing on his behalf, for his client, to rehydrate the patient.
Then we`re going now to put inside the same bag, you`re hydrating, giving fluids to the patient, a very powerful sedative agent, a general anesthetic. Again, these two - two things are very unsafe.
SMITH: All right. Dr. Dombrowski, thanks.
And, I`ll tell you what, we`re going to get to the defense`s side, because we`ve heard the prosecution`s part. Now, they`re going to ask - and the question becomes, did they convince you or did they convince the people in that courtroom that Michael`s death was involuntary manslaughter? And we`re asking the question, what would the defense have to do to make the jury see their side of the story?
Well, for complete trial coverage, by the way, go to HLNtv.com/michaeljackson.
And Drew and Lisa Ling at the bottom of this hour. Got to catch this interview. Keep it right here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHAFER: What I saw was a patient who stated what he wanted. I want this, I want this, I want this. And I saw that Conrad Murray said yes. Tell me what you want, I`ll do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: Strong words from the prosecution`s final witness, Steven Shafer. And there is the courthouse where Conrad Murray is facing trial in Michael Jackson`s death.
Now, the prosecution coming very close to resting their case as we stand right now. So what will the defense have to bring to the table to convince the jury of Dr. Conrad Murray`s innocence? Remember, they don`t have to prove anything, but they`ve got a lot against them right now, and take a look at what they promised to prove in opening statements.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When Dr. Murray gave him the 25 milligrams, and Dr. Murray left the room, Michael Jackson self administered a dose, an additional dose of propofol and it killed him, and it killed him like that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: All right. I`m back with Beth Karas, Dr. John Dombrowski, and Lauren Lake, defense attorney.
And, Lauren, let me talk to you about the defense now. What do you expect from them? And - and how did you think it went today for the prosecution?
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: You know, I think the prosecution`s witnesses have really been great. They`ve put on a wonderful case. But, I cannot tell a lie, Ryan, I am bored now.
I am ready for them to get Dr. Shafer off the stand. I really think he hit all his points, he has reiterated and re-reiterated, and I`m ready to see the defense. And it`s not just because I`m a defense attorney, but I think that they have nailed the whole gross negligence point, but I`m still interested in the causation.
And even though they`re pointing out all of the 17 egregious acts and failure of duties of care, I still believe it will be important to this jury just to understand how - before they call this doctor a criminal - how did Michael Jackson really die? And it`s time for the defense to put on an expert.
SMITH: But Lauren, do they - do they have to show that, Lauren?
SMITH: Do they have to show that, Lauren?
LAKE: No, they don`t, but -
SMITH: Or are you saying they should show that?
LAKE: -- that`s a common sense notion that a jury would want to know, because it`s that same one that they wanted to know in the Casey Anthony case.
It`s that kind of thing, before I put this label of criminal on this man, this doctor, which I`m sure there will be some evidence that will come out that he was a competent doctor at some point. But, before we call him a criminal, let`s first figure out what in the world happened. Can anybody tell us what really happened?
And the defense`s perspective will be we can tell you what we think happened, but, at the end of the day, no one really knows what happened, and that may be enough for reasonable doubt.
SMITH: All right. Beth Karas, quick point here. What do you think?
KARAS: Well, I think the demonstration that the jury saw today is what the prosecution says really happened, and they - they believe it or they don`t.
SMITH: All right. Now, that`s going to be key. And, remember, the defense is now up. They`re going to cross examine this witness, and then we move on to their case, and we`re going to be waiting to see what they have to say in that courtroom. Remember, they don`t have to prove anything, but they will get up there and make their case for Dr. Conrad Murray.
Now, I want you to stay tuned to HLN as the Murray trial gets ready for the defense. Check out HLNtv.com/michaeljackson for the very latest.
And, coming up next, Dr. Drew is back, with Lisa Ling. And are we wrong about polygamist marriages? What you`re about to see might surprise you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LISA LING, JOURNALIST: So you two have been married for how long?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ten years.
LING: Ten years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
LING: And you two have been married for how long?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Us three have been married for about a year and a half.
LING: Thank you for pointing that out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: Are polygamist marriages getting a bad rap? We know about FLDS leader Warren Jeffs and his crimes against underage girls. Or what about those who have nothing to do with him or his sect. Dr. Drew is here with Lisa Ling. She was welcomed into their midst. She`ll tell us why they choose to live that way. And we`ve got an update on one of Jeffs` 78 wives. She escaped. Will the others (INAUDIBLE) now that he`s locked up forever?
ERIC NICHOLS, PROSECUTOR: Rarely, if ever, in the criminal justice system in Texas have we ever encountered a person such as Warren Jeffs whose criminal conduct spans decades, multiple jurisdictions, and hundreds of victims.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was the lead prosecutor in the Warren Jeffs case, the disgraced FLDS polygamous leader is in prison for life for sexually assaulting two underage girls. Now, tonight, we`re taking an in-depth look at so-called plural marriage. Do all polygamist communities breakdown to the point where they end up having a ruthless sexual predator as their leader?
We`re going to examine one community that claims they have nothing in common with the Jeffs community, particularly with respect to things like forced marriages, men having sex with underage girls, nothing like that.
Tonight, we are joined by journalist, Lisa Ling. She was invited into the centennial park compound with cameras to talk with their leaders and families. Her special, "our America with Lisa Ling, Modern Polygamy" airs on the OWN Network this Sunday night at 10:00 p.m. eastern time. So, Lisa, let`s set the record straight. By the way, thank you for coming in.
LISA LING, HOST, "OUR AMERICA WITH LISA LING": Thanks for having me.
PINSKY: Good to see you. How is this different than what we all hear about in those FLDS communities and things like that?
LING: Well, I was invited into a community called Centennial Park, which is also on the border of Utah and Arizona. They actually were part of the Colorado City polygamists, but when Warren Jeffs and his father assumed power, they split of because Warren Jeffs imposed this very severe fundamentalism onto the community. He cut them off from the rest of the world, and what they do in Colorado City is so different from Centennial Park.
Centennial Park is actually very modern and progressive. They`re completely open. They allowed us in (ph), and they`re still pretty cautious about who they talk to just because there`s so much stigma attached to it, but they severely mandate that girls are 19 years of age when they marry. And that`s important for them to -- a message that they want to get out.
PINSKY: How do they prevent abuses? I mean, that`s really kind of the concern, isn`t it, that it breaks down into something like the Warren Jeffs community.
LING: Well, the girls are 19 or women are 19 years old when they get married. Now, it`s interesting because this is a community where the women actually dictate who they`re going to marry.
PINSKY: I`ve heard this. Explain that to me.
LING: So, I was actually very surprised by this. So, a girl can see the man that she is going to be betrothed to.
PINSKY: Does she -- is it --
LING: She has a vision, and she`s spoken to by God.
LING: And says to her, I`m going to marry my math teacher. I`m going to marry --
PINSKY: Wait a minute. Every 18-year-old screw ball or 16-year-old screw ball male is having visions like that everyday. Our stage manager is having one right now --
LING: I know.
PINSKY: God is telling him something.
LING: I know. This is true. In fact, we interviewed a number of women who had that very thought like my Math teacher at 14 years old --
PINSKY: Does she date the guy first?
LING: No. So, what she does is she sits on it until she`s 19 years old. She can even date other people before she`s 19. But when she`s ready, she approaches the clergy, the religious leaders and asks them if she can marry this man. The man is completely unknowing. So, the clergy will talk to the man and say so and so would like to marry you, and they very rarely refuse.
PINSKY: Clergy is match maker?
LING: No, the clergy, the religious leaders.
PINSKY: They`re like match makers.
PINSKY: Yes, they are.
LING: Well, they can be match makers if there`s someone who has not gotten married, they can go approach the religious leaders and they can --
PINSKY: Put them together.
LING: Put them together, yes.
PINSKY: Let me ask this. Why -- if polygamy -- I`m a big fan of the show "Big Love." You watch that show?
LING: Oh, yes. Huge fan.
PINSKY: OK. And so, to me, that was a really realistic exploration of how complicated relationships are in these polygamous, because, let`s face it, relationships are tough enough, monogamy.
LING: Of course.
PINSKY: And the data is good on monogamy in terms of people being healthy and living on things like that. You bring in other relationships, it gets difficult.
LING: And that was no different from one of the families that we spent time with. In fact, I was -- I thought that they were going to just show us perfect families, but in fact, we spent a lot of time with one family in which one of the wives was not getting along with another, and so, she and her biological daughter moved out. I mean, it happens. There are jealousies, there are --
PINSKY: Got to be lots of that.
PINSKY: More than even usual. I mean, although, you know, monogamy is not doing so great in America these days, I mean, let`s face it.
PINSKY: Lisa, apparently, talked to a young couple who welcomed a second wife into the couple after being monogamous in marriage for eight years. Look how this works.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LING (voice-over): Marlene and Isaiah married young. Both were only 18, but committed to living in a plural marriage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If Isaiah would have told me that he didn`t want this before we got married, I wouldn`t have married him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Vice versa.
LING: Like most newlyweds here, they moved into a small trailer and started raising a family. After eight years of living in monogamy, they were joined by a second wife, Becca.
(on-camera) So, what happened with you, Becca?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One day I was in church, and I was sitting with my sister, Sharon, and I saw him walked through the door. I got to find (ph) to come over me, and I turned to Sharon and said yes, that`s who I feel like I belong to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Do you think these complex relationships have an adverse effect on the children?
LING: Actually, I think the children really respond favorably to these kinds of relationships. In fact, in these families, they see both of the women as their mothers, and what they say is that if a woman gets married to a man and she`s unable to have children, all of the children become her children as well.
And so, while the children have one biological mother, they view all of these mothers as their mothers. So, there`s always someone they can go to.
PINSKY: Someone available.
LING: Yes. And watching these kids together, they -- I never saw any fights break out, and I was in a home with 15 kids, and --
PINSKY: That has to be a false --
LING: I don`t know. I mean, I spend a lot of time with them. They not only got along, but the older ones had responsibilities and took care of the younger ones.
PINSKY: Well, but that`s not sort of healthy. I mean, parentalizing older kids is considered pathology. It`s giving kids opportunity to be children is what`s healthy for children. And when there are too many kids, older ones become parentalized.
Now, Lisa also talked to a polygamous wife who had been in a monogamous relationship and was very happy. Another woman was going to join the household not to help in the kitchen but to help in the bedroom, right, Lisa?
LING: You`ll see.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Living in monogamy as long as I did, it just was not satisfying to me. And caring for the needs of the man was more than -- I enjoy having help doing that.
LING: What kind of needs are you talking about?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Physical needs.
LING: So, after eight years, you were actually relieved to have another woman take care of those needs?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: But Lisa, that woman is clearly depressed. And, we -- you know, I see -- we see couples all the time that the woman is depressed and the physical relationship isn`t working out. Normally, we don`t prescribe another woman as a way to improve that relationship.
LING: Right. Well, I don`t get the sense that she`s depressed. It`s part of their culture, and the women, they consider themselves all to be married.
PINSKY: Why not more men? Why not a bunch of men for one woman? Why not that?
LING: The religion dictates this.
PINSKY: That`s my next question. Why --
LING: Listen, I would have no qualms with that whatsoever.
PINSKY: Oh, good. Lisa, we`ll set up a new -- I`m not sure I`m totally for that. I like the way they`ve got it set up, but we`ll set up a new camp. My screw ball camera men are all ready to go.
PINSKY: But why does this have to always be shrouded in religious beliefs? Why can`t it just be a cultural value set without being under the shroud of religiosity?
LING: And that is a question that I can`t answer. It just is. And these people feel devoutly passionate. I mean, this is the foundation of their religion in these communities. And having spent some time there, it was interesting, because their families are at the core of everything they do, and it`s a really cooperative community on so many levels.
PINSKY: Two parts that I`m sympathetic too. One is that the families do seem to function. I wouldn`t want to have to deal with all that, but they seem to kind of function.
LING: I know some women who actually wouldn`t mind having their husband`s physical needs taken care of from time to time.
PINSKY: That`s not what you call healthy. I`m just saying. It`s much happier and healthier when things are working out OK at home.
PINSKY: And secondly, the wives want other wives, is that sort of -- that part help with the kids kind of thing?
LING: Well, they do, because everybody has a role. Rose, the woman who just spoke, she maintains the home while the other two wives will work outside. So, they`re all contributing to --
PINSKY: That is the other piece. How do they afford all the kids? But all the women also work in --
LING: They work. And the community actually -- people in the community help them build their houses.
PINSKY: And then finally, the other thing I`m sympathetic to is not having Big Brother intrude on people`s choices, you know, how much the government will allow them (ph) to really intrude in this stuff, but we have to go to the break here.
Next, a woman who escaped from the FLDS and her fight to save others.
And unlikely alliance for the women of the Centennial Park as we go to break, check this out from Lisa`s special which airs again this Sunday at 10:00 p.m. on OWN.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LING (voice-over): It`s the women of Centennial Park who are leading the charge for legitimacy, and they`ve turned to an unlikely ally for advice.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s different for the gay community. I mean, sure, we`ll be vilified and maybe someone will call me some real mean names, but these are your -- you have so much to lose. You have your lives to loose.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: What would you guys say to somebody who took the position that becoming more lax with bigamy laws believes to more sex such as Warren Jeffs from the FLDS?
MERI BROWN, KODY BROWN`S FIRST WIFE: It`s easy for groups like his group to be to fall into the secrecy and be able to commit these crimes and horrible things against children.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because of the fear.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Welcome back. That was a clip from a show we did last month on polygamy when we featured Kody Brown and three of his wives who star in the reality show "Sister Wives." Now, we`re talking with journalist, Lisa Ling, who spent several days inside the Centennial Park polygamist compound and talked to a few of he families and church elders as well.
Now, joining me is former FLDS member, Flora Jessop, and Flora is a friend of ours, and we`ve reported on many stories. And Flora, you actually have relatives in the Centennial Park and know the community and you have some concerns about the way these stories were presented. Is that right?
FLORA JESSOP, ESCAPED FLDS MEMBER: Yes. You know, it concerns me because they`re trying to portray this as a normal lifestyle, and it`s not normal. Growing up in this as a child, watching your mother when the second wife, the third wife, the fourth wife comes into the home, watching the life die out of your mother`s eyes, and she turns into this shell of who she used to be.
There`s no more laughter. You know, it`s very heartbreaking and very difficult for the children living in these communities. So, I`m really concerned that there`s this portrayal of this normal society.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Lisa.
LING: Certainly, that could have been your experience, but the families that I spent time with, and they might not be reflective of all communities in Centennial Park or in polygamist marriages, but the wives, in some cases, are actually closer than they were with their husband. Like the bonds between the wives seemed to be more meaningful than their bond with the husband.
The young couple we profiled, they were best friends, they are sister wives, they are confidants, and they`re mothers to their children.
JESSOP: Until you enter the man into the mix. And then, it turns into a nightmare scenario. That`s the problem. Yes, you know, I saw the bonds between women, too, but those bonds broke when the man came into the mix, and it creates a nightmare for the children living in it and a nightmare for the women living in it.
PINSKY: Let`s take look at these polygamist wives who explain why they should be able to practice their lifestyle without interference from the government. Something, I`m sort of sympathetic too.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LING: In the past, these two groups have been at odds. Most Mormons consider homosexuality a sin.
(on-camera) It seems like a very unusual alliance. Like what is the objective here?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was an unusual thing. When we really got together and started learning to know each other, we found out how much we really had in common.
LING: Like what?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The right to not have the government involved in your choice for marriage or commitment to another human being.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We feel that the government shouldn`t be in the bedroom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Lisa, that does seem like an unusual alliance. The gay community, I get why they`d be in alliance, but --
LING: It definitely surprised me, but getting back to something that flora said. In Centennial Park, I think it`s pretty different than what she experienced in Colorado City. These people seem to be consenting adults, and we even spent time with a family that was having a conflict. There was a wife that actually moved out with her daughter, and she chose to come back, but if she did not choose, the husband said it`s her prerogative.
PINSKY: Flora, do women feel coerced there?
JESSOP: Yes, they do. I`ve worked with about probably 30 women that have left Centennial Park and have very much horror stories, the same that have come out of the FLDS. So, you know, maybe me working with the abuse victims from these communities. You know, one of the things that we`ve been trying to get done is that the community would support the women that want to leave these marriages if there is, in fact, abuse.
But because of the dynamics of the society, the belief system, it is a patriarchal society, and because of that, they don`t stand behind the women, even if there is abuse because the elders are always right. So, that`s one of the things --
PINSKY: I hear you. And let me play devil`s advocate for a second. And, there`s a lot of abuse in our monogamous culture, and there`s a lot of problems here, you know, in the general culture as well. Would you --
PINSKY: Right. I understand. But would you take issue with the folks that say it should be decriminalized because then the secrecy will be taken out of it?
JESSOP: You know, I just don`t think decriminalization is the right way to go. If you wanted -- if we decriminalize polygamy in this country, the largest, actual largest grouping of people that would be effected is the Muslim polygamists, and what scares us, and I work with a lot of the activists for the Muslim women as well, and what is very frightening to them is the fact that they say that if we decriminalize polygamy, there are going to be thousands upon thousands of women slapped into Burkas overnight in the Muslim polygamist society.
And, so, you know, it`s a much bigger picture than just the fundamentalist Mormon population that we`re talking about.
PINSKY: Lisa, I`m going to give last word to you. I mean, it`s complicated.
LING: It is complicated, and as you said, there`s abuse in every community. And what I experienced with the families that I spent time with were consenting adults.
PINSKY: And things seemed to be working for them.
LING: Not only did they seem to be working, but the kids seemed to be very open and well adjusted and they, I mean, they seem to be functioning pretty well.
PINSKY: Would you be in favor of decriminalizing?
LING: In certain cases. I think that if consenting adults want to get married, I don`t have a problem with it. I think they should be able to marry whoever they want.
PINSKY: Flora, I just have 30 seconds. Go.
JESSOP: One other important fact that needs to be noted here is if we decriminalize polygamy, the family law in the court system will have to be completely rewritten. How do we give visitation to the plural wives and to the husband and how does this work when the children are going to school and the custodial rights?
The family law rights in the court system will have to be completely overwritten in this country, and that`s another big step that we need to look at in decriminalizing polygamy.
PINSKY: Well, thank you, Flora. For the record, honey, you`re enough for me, just one. That`s all I need. It`s all good. It`s all good. Gets too complicated.
LING: What do you mean, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: The only one at a time, though, might just -- works out pretty well that way.
PINSKY: Now, next, we`re going to get an update on a woman who recently escaped --
PINSKY: Welcome back. Joining us now is CNN correspondent, Gary Tuchman. Gary has been following Warren Jeffs and the FLDS for several years now. Gary, apparently, one of Warren Jeffs` 70 plus wives escaped from an FLDS compound. Can you bring us up to date on that story?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That`s right. We learned in court when Warren Jeffs was on trial in Texas that he has 78 wives, but there may still be 77 with them, but one of them left two weeks ago. This woman we know, according to authorities, he married when she was 18 years old. She`s 25 now.
She decided she no longer wanted to be part of this. She sought out this gentleman by the name of Willie Jessop. Willie used to be one of Warren Jeffs` top aides. He no longer likes Warren Jeffs. He considers himself still a fundamentalist Mormon, but he believes Warren Jeffs is a bad person, and this woman sought out his sanctuary, went to his office.
He still lives in the Colorado City/Hilldale area where most of the FLDS members live. He then asked for members of the sheriff`s office in Washington County, Utah to come to his office. They are not part of the church, but at the same time, members of the FLDS church came to his office.
There was a standoff. It got very tense we are told, but ultimately, the Washington County sheriff`s deputies took the woman into custody. She is now safe in a shelter. She is doing OK, we are told.
PINSKY: Are we going to hear from her? Is there more to be told? Has she been hooked up with -- there`s a whole ring, we just had Flora Jessop on a few minutes ago. There`s a whole support network of women who have escaped. Is she getting hooked up with them?
TUCHMAN: We are told she is getting the proper help. To be honest with you, Dr. Drew, we did ask if we could have a chance to talk to her. She`s not ready to talk just yet, but we are told she is getting the proper support. What`s very difficult about this, when people leave the FLDS, the problem is leaving isn`t so hard, you can leave.
In Arizona and Utah, unlike Texas, we`ve heard about the Texas ranch where the raid was, that is a compound with a gate. Literately, you can`t get out. But in Arizona and Utah where most of the 10,000 FLDS members live, it`s a regular city. You can drive out of there. Most of people live there are members of the FLDS.
But once you leave, you give up your children. You give up your mother, you give up your father, and you give up everyone you know, and you don`t have resources. You don`t know people on the outside world, and that`s why people don`t leave because they just don`t know how to live without the life they know.
PINSKY: Interesting. Gary we will keep in touch with you on this story. Thank you so much for filing that report.
PINSKY: So, Lisa, it`s a complicated story.
LING: It is.
PINSKY: It`s interesting. You know, it`s questions of how we should be conducting ourselves in our families, how much government should be involved with that, how much religion should be dictating this --
LING: Absolutely. And I`m, by no means, a defender of polygamy. I was invited into this community where we spent a lot of time. The families I spent time with seemed to sincerely like living this way. The women are on the frontlines, trying to fight for legitimacy.
PINSKY: I`ve talked to people from polygamous community is that wanted to seek that out for their adult relationship because they`ve considered it a positive experience when they were childhood. I`ve talked to those people, and they seem to be really dedicated to it. What do you want people to know? Why should they come watch the show on Sunday?
LING: I think just to have their perspective widened. I think that in most cases, there`s this assumption that the men control everything in these polygamist communities, and this is a community where things are a little bit different.
And again, the women are on the frontlines, and it`s pretty interesting. It`s not as perfect as they would say it is, but it`s also not as pernicious as some might say it is as well.
PINSKY: Sunday night.
LING: Ten o`clock.
PINSKY: Ten o`clock. Sunday night ten o`clock on OWN. Be sure to watch the show. Thank you for filing that report. Thank you for joining me. It`s good to see you again.
LING: Thanks for having me.
PINSKY: And thanks to all of you out there for watching. We will see you next time.