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PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT
The Death of Moammar Gadhafi
Aired October 20, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PIERS MORGAN, HOST: Tonight, the final moments of a desperate dictator. What really happened? The amazing inside story of how they finally got Moammar Gadhafi hiding in a sewer pipe.
Killed in a ferocious and bloody fight. After 42 brutal years in power. In the end, the bloody dictator was stripped of his golden gun by one of the men he had labeled brats.
Tonight we're on the ground in Libya. We'll talk exclusively to the man who could take over and what it means for Libya, the U.S., and the world.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And it's also going to send a powerful message around not only the Arab world but frankly to dictators everywhere about the dangers of hanging on too long.
MORGAN: This is a special edition of PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT.
You're looking at dramatic video at the end of Moammar Gadhafi's life. I must warn you the content is graphic, but sometimes pictures really do tell a story than does any words.
As you can see, it's been an extraordinary and dramatic day in Libya. Here's what we know.
MORGAN: The day begins with a bloody battle. Rebels finally took the brutal dictator's hometown of Sirte. Moammar Gadhafi makes a run for it in a convoy, reportedly spotted by a U.S. surveillance drone. The information is fed to French Air Force jets.
Their bombs drove Gadhafi into a ditch by the side of the road. He crawls into a drain pipe, his last desperate hiding place. Rebel fighters dragged him out then spray-paint the entrance, "Gadhafi was here," they write. They take a personal memento, his golden gun.
There are conflicting reports about what happens next. Gadhafi is still alive, roughed up by the crowd of rebels, the type of people he's called rats. He's shot in the stomach and put in an ambulance. He dies on the way to the hospital. Pictures also show a gunshot wound in his forehead.
Once it spread across country the celebrations begin. From Tripoli to Benghazi. (END VIDEOTAPE)
MORGAN: To get a sense of the mood in Libya, I'm joined now by CNN's senior international correspondent Dan Rivers. He's live in Tripoli.
Dan, an extraordinary day, a historic day in many ways for the people of Libya. How would you describe the mood there?
DAN RIVERS, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's just been electric all day, Piers. The crowds have been thronging on the streets here in Tripoli, firing their weapons in the air, many of them -- the traffic has been stacked up along the Cornish behind me.
As news broke that, first of all, Sirte had fallen then that Gadhafi had been captured, then news that he had been killed, you just got this cacophony of gunfire of -- even the ships in the harbor were sounding their horns. People could not believe the news.
And then slowly the crowd gathered down in what used to be Green Square, now called Martyr Square. Many people carrying photos of loved ones who died either in the revolution or who had died at the hands of Gadhafi's regime. So there was poignancy as well as celebration.
MORGAN: And Dan, there's been lots of conflicting reports through the day about exactly what happened. From what you've been able to work out, do we know the sequence of events now? Do we have a clearer picture?
RIVERS: Well, this is -- this is our understanding at the moment. There was an early morning push by the NTC troops into district two, which was the last bastion being held by Gadhafi's loyalists. They then tried to flee. Gadhafi's convoy tried to make a run for it to the west on the highway going to the west.
There was a NATO air strike, we're told, at 8:30 that involved a predator drone and French mirage jets. We understand from NATO that they don't believe that Gadhafi was killed by their strike. We then see this footage that shows Gadhafi being captured.
Now what we think happened is that he took shelter from the air strike in that underground culvert, under the road -- the drain there under the road. Sheltered from the jets there, from the fighting. At some point was then captured by the -- by the rebels and brought up. That's when you see the video.
He, according to the NTC, had already been shot in the arm. They claim, then, that they were trying to take him to hospital when the vehicle he was in was hit by crossfire and he was hit in the head.
Other reports suggest in fact he was actually executed by NTC members. That's something the NTC is denying vehemently. But it's very murky. You know maybe we'll never know really what happened.
MORGAN: And there were extraordinary details like he was brandishing a golden gun, that he was screaming, don't shoot, don't shoot. And even turned to a rebel at one stage and said, why are you doing this to me? What have I done to you?
RIVERS: Extraordinary. I mean the parallels with Saddam Hussein, you know, are there. You know both he and Gadhafi went back to their hometowns. They were found in this most kind of bizarre fashion, you know, underground trapped in the most kind of extraordinary fashion.
Here -- I think the difference here is we've got multiple videos of Gadhafi being captured and more is coming to light all the time, Piers. Within the last few minutes we've had different angles showing essentially the same thing from different mobile phones.
I wouldn't be surprised if more keeps emerging that will help us build up the picture of exactly what really happened? Was he really hit by crossfire as they tried to take him to the hospital as the NTC claims, or was this a mob out of control and someone decided to execute him on the spot?
MORGAN: Dan, for now, thank you very much.
Joining me now is Ambassador Ali Suleiman Aujali.
Ambassador, a very happy day for you, I'd imagine.
AMB. ALI SULEIMAN AUJALI, LIBYAN AMBASSADOR TO U.S.: Thank you, Piers. This is a happy day in my life, and happiest day for the Libyan people. And also the Americans, they share with us this happiness. The end of dictatorship in Libya. It is a great thing to happen and I'm very happy to be alive to witness this such a beautiful day and great news.
MORGAN: And ambassador, you represent the United States on Libya's National Transitional Council. Clearly a massive success for the NTC and indeed for the allied forces that were there. But there is this question mark over whether Moammar Gadhafi died on the way to the hospital from injuries he'd already sustained, or whether he was executed.
Do you know the answer to that question? And I guess the other question I'd ask you is, do you care?
AUJALI: I care about one thing. That Gadhafi is no more alive, no more alive to kill more people. That's the great news to me. The way -- how he was killed, this is something else. The Libyan people, I can assure to you, and the NTC, they want him alive. They want the Libyan people to have the chance to ask him questions about his crimes against the Libyan. And I think even the Americans they want to see him alive to ask him the questions about what happened to the Americans who are being killed by the terrorist act of Gadhafi.
NTC, very confident that they will never allow his executed by any of the revolutionaries. But you can see that he was bleeding when the first time we saw his -- the video of his photo after the -- after the captures. MORGAN: Ambassador, thank you very much.
AUJALI: Yes, and to me --
MORGAN: Thank you very much, Ambassador.
AUJALI: Yes. Thank you very much. OK.
MORGAN: Joining me now on his first interview since Moammar Gadhafi's death is His Highness Prince Idris al-Senussi. His family was overthrown by Moammar Gadhafi 42 years ago.
Your royal highness, thank you for joining me. What a moment for you, for your family and your country.
PRINCE IDRIS AL-SENUSSI, LIBYAN ROYAL FAMILY: I was giving a speech somewhere in Rome. And when I heard the news I had to leave the conference. I couldn't -- you know, I couldn't just keep still. I wanted to go out and pick up the phone and speak to people in Benghazi, speak to people in Tripoli.
Tripoli was impossible to speak to, so we spoke to Benghazi and everybody was so happy. I mean we don't know -- I can't explain it to you. And I feel now that finally I can go back to a free country, a country that I have loved and I have never detached myself from. And I feel proud that the Libyan people have done it themselves and finally we have a free Libya.
MORGAN: How do you see the future for Libya mapping out?
I. AL-SENUSSI: Well, the future for Libya is going to very bright. We're already seeing. And the Senussi have always have protected the minorities. They have always worked with the minorities. And of course we are the Senussi. We are now working to make it our program, where we would like to work with the minorities, working with everybody, and want to give Libya based on a civil society free, civil society, based on human rights, vote, building institutions, building a country.
MORGAN: And Your Highness, do you hope to have a role yourself in any future Libyan government?
I. AL-SENUSSI: No, I'm not talking about government. I'm talking -- of course I will have a role in the building part of the civil society. And we -- I am a Libyan, I have a right like any other Libyan. We want to build institutions based on human rights, on respect of men and women, respect of individual no matter of gender or race. But that's not my role. I think I will -- if I'm not in the government, even if I am a businessman, whatever I am in Libya, that's what I will work to try to accomplish for everybody. And try to put all my efforts to do this kind of thing.
MORGAN: Prince al-Senussi, thank you very much for your time and congratulations on what must be a very special day for you and your family.
I. AL-SENUSSI: Thank you very much. Thank you.
MORGAN: I'm now joined by His Highness, Prince Madhi al-Senussi, which of course his brother.
Your Royal Highness, your brother sounded very gleeful there. I've spoken to you in the past. A big day for you, your family, for Libya, and indeed for the world. One question.
PRINCE MAHDI AL-SENUSSI, LIBYAN ROYAL FAMILY: Yes.
MORGAN: Though I think a lot of people are now asking. What happens about oil now?
M. AL-SENUSSI: Well, oil going to be -- going to be developed, bring back to 1.6 to 2 million barrels a day. And will be exported and sold at the international market. And we will ask international companies to participate with us, to develop our country, and to bring economic development and prosperity to our people.
MORGAN: And tell me, how do you feel on a personal level? I asked your brother about this. But a pretty extraordinary day for you and your family. Forty-two years in exile. You've had to watch this dictator, you know, ravaging the country that you love so much. When you saw the video footage, how did you feel?
M. AL-SENUSSI: It is an understatement if I tell you that -- I can't even describe. I got an early phone call from my family in Benghazi. I was told that around 5:00 that Gadhafi was finished. I've been on the phone with many different Libyan from different parts in Benghazi and Tripoli and elsewhere. And being an extraordinary day is beyond, beyond any way I can express. I look forward to joining them, you know, in the future. Very near future.
MORGAN: It certainly has. And I salute you and your family on what must be a very special day for all of you.
Thank you very much for joining me, Your Royal Highness.
M. AL-SENUSSI: Thank you for having me. I appreciate.
MORGAN: And now to one of the key members of Congress on foreign affairs, Senator Bob Menendez in New Jersey. He's on the Foreign Relations Committee.
Senator, what a day. Where were you when you heard the news?
SEN. BOB MENENDEZ (D), NEW JERSEY: I was in my office when we first heard the news. And it is an extraordinary day. And certainly a great day of liberation for the Libyan people. Also a great day for those of us who are concerned about -- were concerned about Gadhafi's engagement in terrorism in the world, and certainly for the United States in terms of the leadership role it played in stopping the slaughter of innocent civilians, which is how this whole process began with Gadhafi bombing innocents, and then being a leader at the U.N. and making sure that we had a no-fly zone and everything that came along after that brings us to today.
MORGAN: And is this President Obama lucky or this is a very skillful plan he's executing to get rid of top terrorists and tyrants? Because it's going very well, whatever it is.
MENENDEZ: Well, he has an extraordinary record. Others have talked about taking out those who have created harm in the United States such as September 11th. Those who have created harm such as on the bombing of Pan Am 103. But it is this president that has systematically eliminated Osama bin Laden, al-Zawahiri, and now as part of the international community, Gadhafi.
And certainly I think that an enormous credit has to be given to the president. That isn't by luck. That is by a methodical process of intelligence, technology and bringing the international community together in common cause.
MORGAN: Senator, there is a debate now about whether the United States should be repaid the several billion dollars this operation has cost from the frozen assets that Libya has of 30 to 36 billion, depending on which report you read. What is your view of that?
MENENDEZ: Well, I certainly think we should be talking to the transitional national council as it moves to establish a government in Libya. And, you know, we do have anywhere between $30 and $36 billion in frozen assets. It might very well be that they will have the wherewithal, it seems to me, especially when oil production gets back up and running, to look towards repaying the United States.
That's not why we did this, obviously, but nonetheless it would be an excellent gesture. Along with something that I have been pushing for quite some time, which is making sure that the transitional national council works with us in giving us access to those who still may be in their domain of the Gadhafi regime who may have been part of the Pan Am 103 bombing where 270 citizens lost their lives, including 34 from my home state of New Jersey.
MORGAN: Senator Menendez, thank you very much for your time.
MENENDEZ: Thank you.
MORGAN: When we come back, where do Libya and the world go from here?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You have won your revolution and now we will be a partner as you forge a future that provides dignity, freedom and opportunity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: President Obama with a message today for the Libyan people. Joining me now is "New York Times" columnist Nick Kristof.
Nick, we've spoken many times in the last 10 months or so about the Arab Spring uprisings and the extraordinary chain of events. Where does this rank in terms of significance, the demise of Moammar Gadhafi, do you think?
NICK KRISTOF, NEW YORK TIMES: This is a huge milestone. Partly because frankly some of the other Arab revolutions haven't gone so well. You know you look at Syria, you look in Bahrain, you look at Saudi Arabia. Even is pretty messing.
And this, I think, is going to end the opposition to the new Libyan government. And it's also going to send a powerful message around not only the Arab world but frankly to dictators everywhere about the dangers of hanging on too long.
I tweeted earlier today that this is going to build moral in places like Syria and Yemen, for protesters there, and I immediately got back a bunch of tweets from people in Bahrain saying, us, too.
MORGAN: Yes, I mean, it's been an extraordinary time for that whole region. I mean, in Gadhafi's case, there he was calling these rebels rats. He was found in the end lurking in a sewer pipe and killed by the rat. You know the scenario there, isn't there, about how he met his maker?
KRISTOF: There is. And you know three-quarters of Libyans have known no other ruler other than Gadhafi. At the beginning of this year, it would have been inconceivable what has happened. And it -- to me at least it's a huge reminder that history doesn't just inch along and evolve. It moves in huge discontinuities and I think that's what we may be prepared to see elsewhere around the world as well.
MORGAN: I mean there's lots of debate raging today about what this means for American foreign policy. President Obama and Vice President Biden making a big play of, hey, you know, $2 billion spent, no American boots on the ground, although people are questioning exactly the voracity of that statement, wondering if there were special forces and so on.
But certainly a very, very different way of dealing with Gadhafi to the way that we saw the Americans dealing with Saddam Hussein. Do you think that we're seeing a whole sea change here in terms of American foreign policy?
KRISTOF: Well, I think this is historic, and I don't think it's going to be a precedent that is going to lead us to move into Syria or other places. There were a lot of unusual factors here. But there was something remarkable in that Western powers, not only the U.S., also Britain and France, but Western powers moved in not after you had a mass atrocity, not after a genocide.
When there were bodied all over televisions to build political will, but beforehand when one was threatened in Benghazi, and averted it. And I hope that that, you know, sends a message that we don't need to wait for humanitarian catastrophes to have befallen, but we can actually generate the political will and sometimes the military power to avert them.
MORGAN: And Nick, I mean, obviously it's not the end for Libya in terms of how it rebuilds itself by any means. Lots of concerns now about what happens in the country next. We've seen in Egypt how complicated it can be when you get rid of a despot in terms of getting some kind of stable scenario going post-despot.
What do you think will happen in Libya in the short to middle term?
KRISTOF: Well, I have a lot of friends who are pretty wary. A lot of smart people who I admire, who point to the tribalism of Libya, who point to the lack of unity about what could come next, about the lack of civil society. But, frankly, I'm more optimistic than a lot of other people.
I think that the oil revenue that Libya has, the relatively small population, the ability to buy people off to generate economic development is going to help. And I was also really struck when I was in Libya last month at the willingness of the revolutionaries to forgive the pro-Gadhafi forces and they despise them but they didn't loot their homes, they didn't steal their cars, they didn't beat them up.
And I hope that that is a sign that Libyans are willing to look ahead and build a new country together.
MORGAN: Nick Kristof, as always, thank you very much.
KRISTOF: My pleasure.
MORGAN: Now to go to one of America's best-known journalists, Dan Rather.
Dan, you interviewed Moammar Gadhafi three times. You know him probably as well as any other American journalist. What were your thoughts today when you heard that he's finally gone?
DAN RATHER, HOST, HD NET'S "DAN RATHER REPORTS": Well, the first thought was, this was an erratic mysterious who was murderous and defiant to the end. That evil is as evil does and this is the way evil often ends, as we saw in the case with Saddam Hussein in Iraq. And possible to think about today, and think about that.
Libya is a unique case but it's part of what I think as possibly - probably the best story, the biggest story, the most important story of the early part of the 21st century as it fits into the Arab Spring which has now faded into the Arab autumn.
There's still a long way to go in Libya as a number of people you've spoken tonight point out. That it's far from over in Libya. Using our technology among other things, but we had the will power, we had the fire power. And now the question is, do we have the staying power for the very hard work of trying to help ensure that Libya does not move into widespread of violence or possibly even civil war, that some kind of stable, civil government, from our view point, preferably a secular government, can be established.
This is going to be very hard work. And, Piers, we learned in the Afghanistan of the 1980s, you'll recall that after the Russians were driven out of Afghanistan in the late 1980s, the United States just looked the other way and sort of abandoned it, and we paid a very price for that because the Taliban moved into the vacuum.
That can't happen in Libya. I don't think it will happen in Libya but we needed to have that very much in mind. There's a lot of work to be done and Libya still hangs in the balance. As we've seen from what's happened in other parts of the Middle East with the Arab Spring now moved against the Arab autumn.
That when these sorts of things happen, each one is unique to itself, these sorts of thing happened, Islamist -- the hardcore, the more fundamental wing of Islam, gets an opportunity and it creates all kinds of complexities and dangers.
There's a danger here, I think, for us -- we Americans who -- our allies in Europe and for others who wish Libya well, to forget that there's still a lot of work to be done. One huge question, which has been referred to in your program tonight, is what happens to the oil?
Libya has tremendous oil reserves but so does Iraq and we thought right after the Iraq war, the oil production would start fairly soon and that will fuel and will finance a comeback for Iraq. It didn't happen in Iraq.
I think it can happen in Libya. I think it will happen in Libya. But it's one of the questions. But a lot of questions flew out of this. What happens to Moammar Gadhafi's son (INAUDIBLE)? That he's now has a beard and going around talking like a man out of a mosque. He's out there somewhere.
Also, al Qaeda. They will see the situation -- the situation now that even with Gadhafi dead, with so much opportunity, so much instability in Libya, it's hard to not believe that al Qaeda will not be trying or some al Qaeda off-shoot to go in there.
So it's very important for us to understand that it's not over. This is the opening of a new era for Libya, part of the whole bigger new era for the Middle East but is one fraught with a lot of opportunities but also a lot of challenges and a lot of dangers.
There are limits to power. And one of the lessons we should not draw out of this in my personal opinion is because it was successful and though it -- necessarily on the ground, thanks to predators and other air power, that it will be easy elsewhere. We can't draw that lesson.
The lesson we got out of Vietnam, which we didn't learn well enough and we've had to learn it over and over again, is there are limits to power. This was a triumph for the moment, the question now is, can we build on that triumph and help the Libyans become what they can become?
MORGAN: Well, it's interesting you say that, I've got someone you now well, General Mark Kimmitt, with me. He's a former assistant secretary of state for political and military affairs.
General Kimmitt, you heard Dan Rather there. It's a day to be excited, I think, and to feel that, you know, the world is probably a better place with Gadhafi gone and yet it's become potentially a more dangerous place in the short term as try and work out as we have with Egypt and the other Arab Spring countries that was not like this. What happens next? What do you think?
GEN. MARK T. KIMMITT, FORMER ASST. SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, I think, first of all, Dan Rather was precise in his forecast and I very much associate myself with those comments as well. This is a country that's been held like Yugoslavia and contained for the last 45 years. We saw what happened in the Balkans after Tito died and that entire just exploded.
We saw the same thing to some extent happen in Iraq. So the international community has got to be part of assisting the transitional national council, not walk away as we did in Afghanistan but actually be involved in the creation and the bringing along of the new Libya.
It would be catastrophic if we allowed that region of the world, that area to turn into another theocracy turned into another safe haven for terrorism or another failed state like Somalia.
MORGAN: And General, are you encouraged by the way America behaved in relation to this military operation? Is it -- is it prudent of America now as still the world's -- in terms of military firepower the world's policemen, to take a bit of a backseat in this kind of operation? Or does that in itself concern you?
KIMMITT: Well, it doesn't concern me. I was glad to see NATO take a front seat and the NATO nations who we have pushed on for many, many years to contribute more and more to regional defense take more of a leading role.
But this operation demonstrated that NATO still has a long way to go. It revealed significant gaps in capabilities in some of the European militaries. And I hope that NATO, after the celebrations, will sit down and do a serious reflection on what went right, what went wrong, and how to improve.
MORGAN: Dan, let me come to you, finally. If I had said to you in 2003, right, here's how the next few years are going to go; we're going to get rid of Saddam Hussein. We're going to get rid of Hosni Mubarak. We're going to get rid of Ben Ali in Tunisia. We're going to get rid of Osama bin Laden. And we're going to take out Gadhafi, you would have thought I was crackers. Wouldn't you?
Isn't this extraordinary what is going on?
RATHER: It's absolutely extraordinary. That's why I say I think it's the best running story of the early stages of the 21st century, and not nearly over. It's absolutely extraordinary. And what strikes me is that nobody predicted this, I among those didn't foresee it at all.
And we should remember how this began, with a peasant man in Tunisia, who was mistreated by the police around his vegetable cart, who felt so strongly about it that he committed suicide over it. And that's what touched all this off. And I don't think should be forgotten as we think about this -- what happened here today.
But where it goes from here is just as unpredictable as things were in, say, 2002, 2003. And I've lived long enough to know, Piers, as you have, that he who lives by the crystal ball learns to eat a lot of broken glass. Anybody who tells you they know what is going to happen in Libya, I would walk away.
MORGAN: I think you're absolutely right. Dan Rather, General Kimmitt, thank you both very much.
RATHER: Thank you.
MORGAN: When we come back, I want to bring in a Dartmouth professor who was been in Libya All summer, advising Libyans on how to form a new government.
MORGAN: You're watching a brand-new video. It appears to show Mitassim (ph) Gadhafi, one of Moammar Gadhafi's sons, wounded and alive in custody earlier today before he was pronounced dead. The death of Moammar Gadhafi puts a spotlight on the new government and the huge task it faces in Libya, building a government from scratch and modern institutions.
One man who is helping them figure it all out is Dirk Vandewalle. He's a Dartmouth professor and political advisor to the United Nations. Professor, thank you for joining me.
PROF. DIRK VANDEWALLE, DARTMOUTH COLLEGE: My pleasure.
MORGAN: You spent a lot of time in Libya recently. Are they equipped, do you think, the NTC, to build a new government?
VANDEWALLE: Well, the NTC has, I think, made great strides since the uprising started in February. And that is while they were in Benghazi, they conscientiously tried to create and think about a new government and tried to particularly, in a stabilization team that they had in Dubai, tried to really come up with a number of solutions for Libya.
Now by the time that the actual invasion of Tripoli took place in August, it was very clear that there were some fault lines emerging within that interim council that was still in Benghazi at that time. And now, of course, that council is or will be completely in Tripoli. And again, a lot of those fault lines that started to emerge are still there. And now, of course, the rubber hits the road. It's time for the TNC to come to terms with all of the difficulties that Libya now faces, problems of reconciliation, problems of dealing with economic development, political development.
Remember, this is a country that for 42 years systematically saw any kinds of opposition group, any kind of civil society group eviscerated by the Gadhafi regime. So, in a sense, what the TNC is up against, the Transitional Council is up again, is creating, really for the first time, a state -- modern state in Libya. And in addition to that, also to create a nation that is -- needs to make that state acceptable, legitimate for most Libyans.
MORGAN: Libya is a very, very tribal country. Does that make it more difficult to foresee any kind of conventional democratic country government developing? Is it harder when you have so many different tribal elements?
VANDEWALLE: I think the divisions that we're seeing in Libya and the fault lines that I just mentioned a minute ago do make it difficult, I think, to really go very quickly, that is at least in a kind of democratic direction, the way that we in the west would like to see.
So even though -- even the TNC itself has talked about elections, for example, in eight months. I think that may be quite problematic in light of all the kind of prerequisites that need to be in place, particularly, as you mentioned, in a society that is so ridden by cleavages. And so the eight months that the TNC has set out may very well stretch beyond that term.
And then of course, beyond that, the country also needs a new constitution. It needs a new cabinet. And then it needs the elections, of course. All of this I think quite difficult, particularly in light of the kind of history that Libya has had for the last 42 years.
MORGAN: Professor Vandewalle, thank you very much, indeed.
VANDEWALLE: My pleasure. >
MORGAN: When we come back, he used to be a voice in the wilderness. Now he can raise his voice. We will talk to one of Gadhafi's worst victims.
MORGAN: Americans will always associate Moammar Gadhafi with the bombing of Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie in Scotland. Family members of the victims have been particularly vocal and looking for justice.
I'm joined by one of them now, Victoria Cummock, whose husband John was killed that day. Victoria, I've spoken to you a few times in the last few months. And I've always wondered whether you would feel any sense of closure if you heard that Gadhafi was dead.
How do you feel today? VICTORIA CUMMOCK, LOCKERBIE FAMILY MEMBER: Well, first of all, I feel elated and vindicated as to what has unfolded today. I think this was a day that I could hardly even dream about. It's a day that victims of Gadhafi terrorism, as well as the Libyan people, can breath a sigh of relief, knowing that Gadhafi cannot come back and continue his reign of brutality.
MORGAN: I mean, there is a kind of strange awful irony that al- Megrahi, who was the man accused of committing that atrocity that killed your husband, is still alive, nearly, what, two years or so after he was released.
How do you feel about that?
CUMMOCK: Well, I think everyone in the Gadhafi regime that was involved with terrorist attacks against America should be held accountable. And obviously al-Megrahi was convicted of the crime.
But there's also other members of the Gadhafi regime that are still at large that need to be brought to justice. You know, there's the International Criminal Court indictments that are still out there against Senusi (ph), who is Gadhafi's brother in law, Saif al Islam, Gadhafi's son, and all of the different factions of the Gadhafi regime that were a part of brutalizing his own people, as well as attacking innocent civilians all over the world, still are at large and need to be brought to justice.
MORGAN: Victoria, would you rather have seen Gadhafi captured alive and brought to justice, put on trial? Or are you happy that he was possibly executed in fairly brutal fashion by the rebels?
CUMMOCK: Well, a month ago, I had met with the current Libyan president -- President Jalil, who pledged to me that he and his regime wanted to bring Gadhafi to justice, not only for the murder of -- of John and other innocent civilians, but also for the murder of his people.
He said that since February 17th, Gadhafi had killed over 35,000 innocent civilians. And in his 40 year regime had killed tens of thousands of Libyans, and that they wanted him tried and brought to justice.
He also said to me at that point in time that there was a brutal war going on, and the conditions around his capture and arrest were -- were very volatile. And as we saw today, you know, you -- you saw what happened to Gadhafi. He was a man that lived by the sword and died by the sword.
And the rage that those who captured him felt -- I mean, that's over 40 years of rage. I only experienced one day of Gadhafi brutality. But everyone there in Libya has lived for over 40 years of this man's brutal dictatorship. And it -- justice had to be left in their hands.
MORGAN: I'm very glad for you, Victoria Cummock, that you have found some justice today for what happened to your husband John on that day in Lockerbie.
Thank you for joining me.
CUMMOCK: Thank you.
MORGAN: We'll go back to Libya after the break, where dawn is just a few hours away. A new day for Libya in many ways.
MORGAN: You are watching dramatic new video. It shows Moammar Gadhafi on the back of a truck, being dragged off. It shows him confused but coherent, wiping blood from his face. Moments later, he was dead.
It has been an extraordinary day. Moammar Gadhafi seized control of Libya when I was just four years to old, making him one of the longest reigning despots in modern history.
There is something perfectly fitting about his final demise, a dictator who branded his rebels rats, being caught and killed, like a rat, by those same rebels, cowering in a filthy sewer.
For 42 years, Gadhafi ruled through fear, torture and terror. Tonight, not just Libya, but the world is a safer place. Good night.