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Baby Lisa: Cadaver Dog`s Positive `Hit`; Conrad Murray Courtroom Drama; Sex in Church
Aired October 21, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Here we go.
Revelations tonight about a cadaver dog in the Baby Lisa case. I told you days ago that there would be more revealed. Now what?
And, the two underage kids, ages 11 and 17, have what they`re calling consensual sex in a church. Is that normal? Is that OK? Not in my book.
Plus, dads who kill, what makes them do it.
We are live from downtown Los Angeles tonight with the Conrad Murray trial, so let`s get started.
(on camera): Good evening. Again, we are in downtown Los Angeles and we are live.
Breaking news tonight in the Baby Lisa case. It was revealed today a cadaver dog was brought to the missing girl`s home on Monday with the parents` consent. The dogs indicated a positive hit for the scent of a deceased human on the floor of the mom`s bedroom near the bed.
Now, this information was in the affidavit for the search warrant that was carried out Wednesday and Thursday. Perhaps even more disturbing, the affidavit states that Baby Lisa`s mom did not initially look for her daughter behind the house because she was, quote, "afraid of what she might find," unquote.
Now, I said earlier this week that more is going to be revealed in this case. I can just tell what the substance used and the distortions and stuff. There`s still more to be really revealed, I guarantee you that.
And we will have more on the Baby Lisa case a little later in this particular show.
But, now onto out the other big story tonight. The Conrad Murray trial, the prosecution wrapped up today and the defense began its cross examination of the state`s propofol expert. Watch.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dr. Steven Shafer, back on the stand, completing the last little portion of his direct testimony.
DR. STEVEN SHAFER, ANESTHESIOLOGIST: Dr. Murray was not present and permitted this to happen while Michael Jackson was under his care.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An expert testifying for the prosecution now being cross-examined by the defense. It`s getting heated inside.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That is wrong.
SHAFER: No, you misstated that. The evidence stated was not correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s something going on with this defense team.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the stress starts to affect everybody, and you have infighting. There is infighting in the defense team right now. Conrad Murray, the defendant, started freaking out in court yesterday. Now you have Ed Chernoff saying no, I`m going to do the cross examination of the prosecution`s star witness, Dr. Shafer.
PINSKY: In fact, the exchange did get a little bit testy and quite personal. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED CHERNOFF, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You understand that everything you said in the last two days was your opinion. You do understand that, right? Do you understand that?
SHAFER: I stated my name, which I think is a matter of fact.
CHERNOFF: You understand that Dr. Murray is literally on trial for his life?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Is there a conflict brewing on the defense team? Take a listen to what one of our reporters overheard at the courthouse just yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALAN DUKE, CNN ENTERTAINMENT EDITOR (on camera): I was about to do a live report and I heard Ed Chernoff, the lead defense lawyer, in a heated discussion really with Dr. Paul White, their anesthesiology expert, who`s going to testify later. And I didn`t quite know what was going on and they were talking about not taking something personally. Wouldn`t go into the details of what was said, but it was showing the strain on Ed Chernoff and on Dr. White.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And now, I do want to get into the standard of care Michael Jackson was receiving. Were Dr. Murray`s actions the result of bad medical sort of judgment or really then lack of understanding of how propofol works and the use of it?
Joining me tonight, cardiologist, Dr. Mark Urman, and the judge who sent O.J. Simpson to prison for his role in an armed robbery at a Las Vegas Hotel in 2008 and she`s also the host of "Swift Justice," Judge Jackie Glass.
Judge Glass, first question to you is, how do you think the prosecution did in presenting the case?
JUDGE JACKIE GLASS, HOST, "SWIFT JUSTICE": I think they did a great job. I think they were very thorough. I think they crossed every T. I think they - they dotted every I. I think that jury knows more about propofol than most anybody anywhere.
PINSKY: Or they ever cared to.
GLASS: Ever - ever cared to know.
PINSKY: But, you know, did you watch any of the defense cross today, the cross examination?
GLASS: I was taping "Swift Justice" today, so I didn`t get to see any of the cross.
PINSKY: Well, it was - it was very - it felt very personally attacking, as I guess cross often does.
PINSKY: And it felt very, again, just monkeying with the minutia, rather than the big picture of what was being shown by the prosecution. I - I thought it didn`t make the defense look that good. It`s interesting but it didn`t make them look good I would think in the eyes of a jury.
GLASS: A defense attorney`s opportunity to cross the star witness, they`re looking for every little bitty thing they can to make that witness lose whatever credibility they have. Now, Dr. Shafer was an outstanding witness - outstanding. And they`re going to have to be hammering at every little bitty thing, and it`s the nitty-gritty time here. They`re - they`re down to the end. They must do something to impeach his credibility or -
PINSKY: They`re in trouble.
GLASS: -- they`re in big trouble.
PINSKY: Well, I - that seemed to be what he was doing. But I must say also I noticed the judge seemed to be very kind to the defense, did you notice that? Did it seem kinder than I`m used to seeing a judge behave, sort of differential to them, because they were doing a good job, I guess that was the judge is sort of -
GLASS: They`re doing their job -
GLASS: The defense is doing its job. And cross examination is their biggest tool usually to make any kind of an impact in front of that jury because they have nothing to prove when it gets to be putting on the defense case.
PINSKY: Just impeaching all their theories.
GLASS: So they`re impeaching what they can, and Dr. Shafer was a great witness for the state.
PINSKY: All right. Now, the cardiologist for the prosecution, Dr. Alon Steinberg named six deviations from a doctor`s standard of care that he alleged proved the gross negligence on the part of Conrad Murray.
Now, as we`ve been discussing, the prosecution has been meticulous, starting at each deviation from the standard, starting with number one. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID WALGREN, PROSECUTOR (voice-over): The first extreme departure or evidence of gross negligence you noted was that propofol was not medically indicated. Is that right?
DR. ALON STEINBERG, CARDIOLOGIST: Yes, sir. He was using propofol for the use of sleep. Propofol is, again, a very strong anesthetic medication, and we use it to facilitate to make you comfortable during a diagnostic procedure. We don`t use it for - for rest or sleep or psychological reasons.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And Dr. Steinberg went on to state Conrad Murray`s second deviation. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEINBERG: A second deviation is that checking, putting propofol, giving someone propofol in someone`s home, unmonitored, without the proper equipment, medical personnel or backup, was also an extreme deviation from the standard of care.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. So here are some of the really big issues that the cardiologist had pointed out. So I brought in my own cardiologist, Dr. Urman, thank you for joining us, of course.
And one is the use of propofol outside a hospital. You and I would agree that already is bizarre, correct? Just any use.
DR. MARK URMAN, CARDIOLOGIST: Yes - or a surgery center, but obviously a place where you`re supposed to be using it.
PINSKY: Monitor the situation. And as a cardiologist, you use it occasionally for cardioversion. It`s a limited short procedure where an anesthesiologist comes in, monitors your patient where you deliver electrical discharge.
URMAN: That`s correct.
PINSKY: OK. So do you get too casual? Do you think there`s some cardiologists get too sort of casual with the drug thinking that they know how to use it because they`ve done all these cardioversions?
URMAN: I certainly I`m never casual about it. I`m just glad my anesthesiologist is there and they -
PINSKY: So you - you actually have an anesthesiologist.
PINSKY: OK. So inadequate monitoring, outside the hospital, no nurse, no anesthesiologist, and then, finally, didn`t call 911, by the way. That was another big thing. I mean, when you learn even basic cardiac life support, when you guys go - when you go to a community center to learn how to do chest compressions, first thing they teach you is assess your resources, who knows CPR here, you call 911, right?
URMAN: That`s correct.
PINSKY: Just because we`re doctors it doesn`t make -
URMAN: Absolutely. That`s the first step.
PINSKY: All right. So let`s talk about - if you were to choose for some bizarre reason to do it outside, to the home, you want to have a basic list of standard equipment to save somebody`s life should there be catastrophe.
Here is a basic list, a standard list of what has been suggested. A pulse oximeter with an alarm, an automated blood pressure cuff, EKG monitor, oxygen, suction, Ambu bag, (INAUDIBLE) for help, of course, good lighting backward, back-up battery, so I - oropharyngeal airway, endotracheal tube, defibrillator, special drugs like epinephrine and whatnot, and an assistant`s help.
So I brought together some of the things that I thought - some medical equipments to help people understand what was profoundly missing in Michael Jackson`s bedroom that night. First of all, Ambu bag. Do you agree with me that that was something that is bizarre when somebody is using medicine that it wasn`t present when somebody is using medicine has respiratory suppression effects?
URMAN: Absolutely. Yes. That`s how you make sure you can breathe (INAUDIBLE).
PINSKY: Why do you show on Judge Glass how would you do this?
URMAN: Do not do this at home. That`s the whole point we`re trying to make here.
Basically if you are giving somebody medicine that could make their breathing start to get shallow, you would want to tilt their chin up. They would be lying down, of course, you would want to make sure the airway is open.
PINSKY: You put this in. It`s another piece of equipment that they did not have, which is in front of you there.
URMAN: -- to move the tongue out - that`s right. To move the tongue out of the way. Obviously, I`m not going to insert it on the judge here.
GLASS: Thank you.
URMAN: But you would want to make sure the airway is nice and open. You would make sure you have a tight seal here, and this is basically allowing you to blow air. It`s like giving mouth to mouth except now you`re using this contraption so I can give the air (ph).
PINSKY: And if you - if you get any more serious situation where the patient is still not breathing in spite of this assisted respiration, there`s something called the endotracheal tube which is what would go down either the nose or mouth into the lungs and then you would attach the Ambu bag to that.
URMAN: That`s correct.
So if you`re worried about really making sure you have an established airway, this is what you use. This is making sure it go through the mouth to the back of the throat and down into the trachea, the wind pipe. And then now you have established out an airway.
PINSKY: And then finally, if things go really bad, you need a defibrillator. This is the thing you guys are used to seeing at home on the medical shows and whatnot. That`s it. Can you guys get a picture of.? It is this device here. I think everyone is familiar with the paddles. It allows to you monitor what`s going on on a cardiac situation and to restore electrical activity, I guess is the best way to describe it when a catastrophe occurs.
None of these was present in Michael Jackson`s situation.
Dr. Urman, Judge Glass, thank you so much for joining me. And for those of you at home want to learn more about this, go to HLNTV.com/michaeljackson for everything you want to know about the Conrad Murray trial.
And next, underage kids and sex. An 11-year-old girl casually tells her mother that she had intercourse in church. What the heck? What is going on? I`m going to tell you what I think after the break.
PINSKY: A 17-year-old boy was arrested after investigators said the boy had had sex with an 11-year-old girl inside a church last Sunday. The mother could not locate her daughter for as long as 10 minutes after church - or I should say perhaps just 10 minutes after church. When her daughter reappeared, she told her mother casually she had intercourse with a 17- year-old in the bathroom at the church. The 17-year-old boy is in juvenile custody in Fort Myers.
Joining me to discuss this, Defense Attorney Mark Eiglarsh, who is a father, Jackie Glass, presiding judge in the Nevada O.J. Simpson case. She is a mom. And I`m going to start off with Stacey Honowitz, a former Florida prosecutor.
Stacey, and you were the author of "My Privates Are Private." The question I think we all want to address first and maybe throughout this segment is, should this 17-year-old boy, I use that term loosely, I guess, should he be tried as an adult or not?
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: First of all, before my office gets upset, I`m not former, I`m current supervisor on the Sex Crimes Unit, so I`m still with the Prosecutor`s Office. And I come across these cases every single day and we do charge 17-year-old boys that are having sex with children as adults.
I mean, it is an epidemic, Dr. Drew. People hear about these high profile cases, but I have cases every single day where we have nine, 10, 11-year-old girls having sex - what they deem to be consensual sex, with boys who were 17 and 18, and they are charged as adults, as I think they should be charged.
PINSKY: Stacey, why do you think this case is catching - catching attention, if it does happen so much? I - I certainly hear about it all the time. Why the focus on this one, do you think?
HONOWITZ: Well, sometimes the local press will pick up a case like this, especially when it involves two kids. They`re at church. The girl says it`s consensual. And you never know what they pick and choose.
But if they would take an inside look in the sex crimes unit, in many, many offices around the country, they would see, like I said, that this goes on all the time. I mean, parents are not educated, teachers are not educated to know what really goes on, that our kids now think it`s really cool and really hip to have sex. They don`t think twice about it.
I had an 11-year-old in my office. When I asked her if it was the first time she had sex, she looked at me, you know, like I was crazy. Well, of course not. I mean, she started when she was nine.
So unless we start educating -
PINSKY: Oh my God.
HONOWITZ: -- and telling people the reality of what`s going on, like focusing on these cases, people think this is just an anomaly. It just never happens. And I`m on your show to tell you -
PINSKY: No. I know.
HONOWITZ: -- that it does happen all the time.
PINSKY: And, let`s be clear, it`s not, hey, it`s just how kids are, or they`re just, you know, aren`t they - aren`t they experimental. This is pathology, and it`s illegal.
And, Mark, are you as disturbed as I am with the idea of an 11-year- old, even the notion of an 11-year-old, consenting? That whole - that idea already bothers me.
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely. I came in here disturbed, and then Stacey talks about nine-year-olds having sex. My oldest child is nine years old. Now I`m physically nauseous. I can`t believe what`s going on.
Now, that being said, I`m not quick to say that the 17-year-old should be charged in the adult system. Let`s talk about the facts here - we don`t know all of them. We don`t know the kid`s background. If this is his fourth or fifth time or a repeat offender, I`d say he needs to learn his lesson.
But, to try him as an adult, and - two large scale studies recently that just came out, said that those juveniles tried in the adult system were much more likely not only to re-offend, but to re-offend sooner, and to do it more frequently than those contained within the - in the juvenile system. So, again, if our purpose is to punish and rehabilitate, I think we`re better equipped to keep them in the juvenile system, where he could be kept - even in a lockdown facility, if they deem appropriate, `til he`s 21 years of age.
PINSKY: Judge Glass, I think Stacey and Mark sort of framed the problem nicely for you. So what does it look like from the bench?
GLASS: Absolutely. From the bench, you have to be concerned about what are - what are 11-year-olds doing, thinking that they can consent? Absolutely (ph) -
PINSKY: They`re sick. They`re sick. There`s something wrong.
GLASS: They - they can`t.
PINSKY: Look, in - (INAUDIBLE) in my world, that 11-year-old is physically sexually abused at home, or neglected, or something - something horrific in terms of the functioning of - of - at home.
GLASS: They don`t have the capability, whether they`re 11, 10, nine or whatever.
PINSKY: I would say they have the capability biologically psychologically, but in the eyes of the law they can`t.
GLASS: They can`t.
PINSKY: They can`t. Yes.
GLASS: The - the age of consent in Florida is 18. And, in most states, it`s 16, but in Florida it`s 18.
PINSKY: Why aren`t they reassessing that? Sixteen - one thing everyone agrees on is that 16 is a bit young to be rendering consent.
GLASS: Sixteen is young, but in -
PINSKY: Aren`t some states reconsidering that? I mean, 18 -
GLASS: The majority of the states, because I checked it before I came here, it`s 16.
PINSKY: Yes. No, I know that, and I wonder why - I think that`s something left over from the `60s. I - it really is, from the standpoint of health, 18 is a much better - I mean, California, with the 18, with the two year window -
PINSKY: Makes more sense to me than 16.
GLASS: And, as a judge, you don`t know how many times I heard people say to me, "But - but Judge, she looked like she was old enough."
PINSKY: Oh my God. All right.
GLASS: "And - and that`s why I did it."
PINSKY: I can feel Stacey going off like a roman candle when you say that.
GLASS: I`m sure you can.
PINSKY: Stacey, do you want to respond to that?
HONOWITZ: Well, I mean, I know it`s very easy to say that they can`t consent, but - and I hate to be a real killjoy in all of this, but, you know, when interview these kids every single day and I ask them, how did you even know about this? Where did you learn about this stuff? You know, a lot of this stuff is focused on in the media.
We see television, we see videos, we see people, we see dancers grabbing their crotches, talking about sex. I mean, you know, it is around us all the time. And, I have to tell you something, there`s so much peer pressure in school. Even at that age, they will tell you that they`re in competition to have oral sex, to go into the bathrooms, to have sex.
I mean, this is the society that we live in, and that`s why I advocate so many times about education. And people really just don`t want to hear it because they can`t believe that it would be their child involved in something like this. And, I`m going to tell you something, it`s not just the bad kids, it`s the good kids in private schools, from wealthy families -
PINSKY: Listen, I`m not saying -
HONOWITZ: -- that are enjoying this kind of behavior.
PINSKY: At no point did I say -
PINSKY: Listen. Stacey, at no point - when I say good or bad, I`m saying kids - these kids - it`s sexually acting out is a sign of trouble. It`s what we use to - to decide whether a kid has a psychiatric problem, one of the symptoms we look for.
EIGLARSH: Drew -
PINSKY: (INAUDIBLE) - 30 seconds, Judge.
EIGLARSH: Drew, is the answer -
GLASS: And then, don`t forget that it`s a 17-year-old who`s thinking it`s OK to have sex with an 11-year-old -
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
GLASS: -- which, what is that? Is that even a power trip?
EIGLARSH: So - so is the answer throwing them to the adult wolves?
GLASS: What is he doing?
PINSKY: Mark - Mark, 15 seconds, Mark. Go ahead.
EIGLARSH: Is the answer - all right. Is the answer to throw him to the adult wolves and let him learn how to really be a criminal, or do we give him the treatment and punishment he needs in the juvenile system? And - and, again, I don`t know that we throw him to the wolves.
PINSKY: I - I don`t know that we can - that we have solved that question, but we at least raised it. And I want to thank you guys for a good panel. And for those of you that want to say something about what you just heard, your questions and comments, I`m going to take them next.
And later, breaking news in the search for Baby Lisa. Are the authorities one step closer to finding her?
It`s a very interesting story. We`ll be back with more of that after this.
PINSKY: And here we are, downtown. I`m just across the street from the iconic Los Angeles City Hall.
You know, those of us who lived here and around Los Angeles get used to seeing many of our - you know, our city buildings, our neighbors` houses on television. They get used for all sorts of background. And this particular building, those of that you are not from Los Angeles, it`s sort of represented Los Angeles for many years.
And lots of conversation in the studio about how - whether it was more known for being "The Daily Planet" on the original television Superman series, or if you remember it from "Dragnet." And those of you that aren`t ancient, don`t know what I`m talking about, I apologize.
Now, we have been discussing the 17-year-old boy from Florida who`s been arrested for having sex with an 11-year-old girl at church. I think the reason I asked the question, I think, of Stacey Honowitz, why this one caught on, I think it caught on because it was in church. It`s become our kids` behavior.
And, by the way, they`re almost always at risk kids, for this kind of stuff. It just - yes. I don`t want to think about good or bad kids. It`s kids who are suffering that act out in ways that are absolutely egregious.
Now, our Facebook and Twitter pages have been overflowing with your comments and questions, so let`s get right to it.
Pamela in North Carolina, what do you think?
PAMELA, GOLDSBORO, NORTH CAROLINA: Hey, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hey, Pamela.
PAMELA: An 11-year-old cannot give consent to have sex. A consenting adult must be at least 17 or 18.
This child was raped. This 17-year-old needs to be prosecuted.
PINSKY: Yes, I - I actually agree with you. And, yes, 11-year-olds do not give consent. It`s a common - they - they delude themselves into believing they were active participants, but these are children.
Go look at an 11-year-old sometime. These are - what, sixth graders, seventh graders? Go hang out with a sixth grader sometime and you see if you think that person should be even considered as someone who could render consent for something like this.
Patricia on Facebook writes, "Is it common in your practice to hear cases where underage girls who have been sexually abused in the past more easily consent to sex with someone much older?"
And that is - thank you. That is a very good question. That is a point I want people to understand and learn about this - cases like this, which is that trauma and abuse - I like to call it glibly the - the gift that keeps on giving, which is to say if some - a kid has some sort of early sexualization or sexual abuse early in life, the crazy thing about the human is that those terrorizing experiences will motivate us to repeat them over and over again throughout our life.
So the child that is sexually abused at three will be raped at 11, like this kid, and maybe forcibly raped a little bit later. I mean - or become sexually addicted later, acting these things out repeatedly and re- traumatizing themselves. We get - we get stuck. Our brains stick us in these repetitions that we don`t even realize we`re in, but we get attracted to the circumstances and people who are just like the original terrorizers from childhood.
Heather writes, "Not saying this is the case, but sadly, many girls at that age are in a hurry to grow up and don`t often look or act their age. Guys are simply attracted."
I kind of take comments like that and throw them in the trash bin. Not - not that you`re not valid for raising it, it`s just it`s not OK. I don`t care what they look like. That - that is not an excuse. I`m sorry.
And yes, kids do - are trying to grow up too soon, and we are sending the girls messages that are unhealthy. All about that, but it doesn`t justify anybody`s behavior in response to this.
All right now, up next, breaking news in the search for Baby Lisa.
And the defense takes center stage next week in the Conrad Murray trial. Get the latest at HLNtv.com/michaeljackson.
We are just getting going here. We got a lot more, so please stay with us.
PINSKY: Coming up, what drives a husband and father to kill others, including his wife and children, and then take his own life? Two recent cases have turned the spotlight on such crimes. Is it rage, resentment, or something else? I try to help you understand it.
And next, revelations about Baby Lisa involving a cadaver dog, scotch tape, and her mother`s strange admission. I had a bad feeling about this and I still do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): And tonight, new developments in the case of missing Baby Lisa. Is there a possible break in the case? Now, according to a police affidavit released today, a cadaver dog searching the home of Baby Lisa indicated a positive hit. This means that the dog reacted to the scent of a deceased human. Listen to where the dog found the smell.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On October 17th, 2011, an FBI cadaver dog was brought into the residence upon consent of Irwin and Bradley. The cadaver dog indicated a positive hit for the scent of a deceased human in an area of the floor of Bradley`s bedroom near the bed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Police haven`t named any suspects, but a neighbor and other witnesses say they saw a stranger leaving the home with the baby. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
"LISA", NEIGHBOR OF MISSING BABY LISA: And then, he had the baby in his arms, and he had the baby`s head kind of like this. So, we just kind of seen the baby`s arm and then the leg was down here, and he was kind of just like, I don`t know if he was trying to protect it from the cold or if he just, you know, he was just holding the baby.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: You know, I mentioned a couple of nights ago that more to be revealed on this case. I just get the sense of real chaos here. And, again, substances, chaos, vortex, sounds familiar, doesn`t it? It`s like Casey Anthony all over again. We expect lies, distortion, and may be what we`re going to get here.
Joining me tonight to discuss how all this advances the case, criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh, Florida prosecutor, Stacey Honowitz, and in Kansas City in front of Baby Lisa`s home, CNN correspondent, Sandra Endo. Sandra, what is the latest?
SANDRA ENDO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Dr. Drew, we can tell you right now we just got a statement from the lawyer of the family saying that the police affidavit that was released today, those court documents, he calls it unfortunate and says in a statement that the parents feel it will derail the search for the missing girl.
And Drew, I can tell you that just moments ago, there was a prayer vigil in front of the home here. The grandparents of Baby Lisa attended. There were tears. There were a lot of prayers, and hopeful, optimistic also comments being made by the family members.
They are saying they`re hopeful investigators will find Baby Lisa, and they are not giving up hope. They are staying optimistic. They say they are thankful for the outpouring of support as well.
PINSKY: Now, the next door neighbors weren`t the only ones to witness a man. There was another individual that gave the same story. Listen to this on ABC`s GMA.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE THOMPSON, SAYS HE SAW BABY WITH MAN: Four o`clock in the morning, 45 degrees, baby don`t have a blanket, a coat, or nothing. This guy is walking down the street. I thought it was kind of weird.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Mark, two sightings. They both saw a man of similar height and a T-shirt on a cold night, in the middle of the night, a baby wearing a diaper. Are these reliable sightings or do you think these are alien, you know, sights of UFOs or something?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I call it the defense witness lottery. I mean, she won it, whether she`s guilty or not. To actually have three people, two separate locations, to actually someone of a physical built, 5`7", about 140 pounds, that could slip through the window. Keep in mind, 350-pound person holding a little baby, he ain`t making it through that window.
So, this, to me, is compelling for the defense. Still doesn`t mean she`s innocent or guilty. It just means come game day if she`s ever charged, these are compelling witnesses for the defense.
PINSKY: Mark, you`ve softened your position a bit. You had her in shackles last time I talked to you about this case, I believe.
EIGLARSH: No, you had me thinking that she was in shackles. No.
EIGLARSH: I mean, listen, I can`t ignore some very compelling evidence which makes her look like she`s really guilty. I`m not saying that she is. All these things, not calling the cell phone that very well may be with the person who took your baby, that`s the first thing me and my wife said we`d do. We would call right away. There`s too many things that --
PINSKY: No, you`re right.
EIGLARSH: I`m not 25. I`m not an alcoholic. I`m different.
PINSKY: Of course, you are. But be that as it may, I mean, there`s these issues of the lights being turned on by somebody who allegedly broke in the house, in the -- you know, in the middle of the night, there`s issues of now there`s scent of deceased body in the bedroom, I guess. And, there`s lots of things that really are very, very disturbing.
Now, Deborah says that police presented a theory that Lisa had been accidentally harmed, and then, the mom had panicked and tried to cover it up. She says they showed burned clothing, I guess, to her during the interrogation. Let`s look at this. Look at this from ABC`s GMA.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEBORAH BRADLEY, LISA`S MOTHER: During interrogation, we found this. They showed me burnt clothes. They showed me a Doppler thing with pings from my cell phones. And, I`m led to believe at this point that none of that was real. I hope the burnt clothes weren`t real.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: You know, Mark, the question I have is do police do things to trick suspects, A, and B, when you watch her in the tape, she doesn`t have the kind of glazed look I`m used to seeing from mothers that have done awful stuff. She looks desperate. But first, answer the question about the police.
EIGLARSH: Yes. Police legally are allowed to use what we call trickery. As a defense lawyer, I say it`s outrageous. No, I don`t. It`s fine. If you`re trying to find a missing child, do whatever it takes within the confines of the law to do so. And sometimes, by alleging to someone listen, you failed the polygraph when you didn`t or there`s evidence showing your DNA, and then they get them to confess and help solve a crime, that`s OK, as long as it is in the confines of the law.
I`m OK with that. Now, as to her affect, look, I`m not in her position. I am trying not to judge her. We all can`t put ourselves in that position. She`s given numerous interviews. And maybe, at that moment, she might not show the effect that people think that she should. So, on that, I`m a little bit kind of lenient.
PINSKY: I understand. Now, I`m going back out to Kansas City to Sandra. Now, Sandra, two things. A, where is the family while they`re tearing the house apart? And B, you talked to Jeremy Irwin`s sister. What did she have to say?
ENDO: Well, Dr. Drew, the family members are at a relative`s home not far from here, less than a ten-minute drive. That`s where they`re hold up right now. As you can imagine, the intense media presence out here as well as well wishers coming by to leave mementos for Baby Lisa. On the other front, the sister, Ashley Irwin, came out for the prayer vigil in front of the home here moments ago, and we did talk to her.
Obviously, the family is very wary of the media. They don`t want the media to blame the family, especially Deborah Bradley, but she said that the family, the parents are cooperating, Dr. Drew. She says they have been in constant contact with investigators. I said, how recently? She said as recently as today.
So, clearly, she wants to portray that they have been cooperative as opposed to the media reports and other accounts out there that have been circulating that they haven`t been talking to investigators. So, certainly, two sides of the story here, but according to Ashley Irwin, the sister of the father of Baby Lisa, she says that they`ve been cooperating and also are very hopeful investigators will find the baby.
PINSKY: And finally, Stacey, I want to ask you some questions about the cadaver dog. My understanding is that a cadaver dog on average will detect a dead body that has been dead for as short as an hour and 15 minutes, but more like about three hours. If that`s true, which I have very little -- no experience with this, just what I`ve read, if that`s true, is this really telling us something here?
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Well, look, we`ve all kind of had suspicions. The first thing that the media honed in on was the fact that her statements were inconsistent, that she blacked out, and she drunk, and that she told different stories.
Then, when you hear something about a police, an affidavit and the search warrant where it says that a cadaver dog hit on the scent of a decomposed body, you have to start focusing on an investigation within the house. And, it`s very easy for the lawyer to come out and say listen, we don`t want this to derail the search for the child.
It`s not derailing the search, but now, it`s focusing more intensely on what went on in that house. You cannot ignore it. We say yesterday, 20 agents came out in hazmat suits with x-ray technology to go into the walls and to the floor to try to discover what was hit on. So, coupled with the inconsistent statements, now the scent of the dog, we have to look and focus on the mother.
PINSKY: Oh, boy. It`s looking a little suspicious. I must admit. Well, thank you, Stacey and Mark. And for Sandra, that you for that report in Kansas City.
Next up, ex-husbands and loving fathers are turning into murderers, not only killing their estranged wives but their children and strangers peripherally involved in their life. What is making these men snap? We`re going to tackle that question when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I got down and put my hands over my neck like an air raid drill, and was just hoping he wasn`t going to kill me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. That`s okay. We have police and paramedics on the way. And you`re at the hair salon?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m hiding behind a car in the parking lot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That`s just chilling, these stories. That was last week in Southern California. A 42-year-old man reportedly involved in a custody dispute with his ex-wife walked into the hair salon where she worked, and then, apparently, allegedly as they say, shot and killed her and seven others.
Sadly, ex-husbands, these are increasingly reported as killing in divorce and custody battles. These are now making headlines across the nation. Watch this.
PINSKY (voice-over): A divorce hearing was scheduled for Sam and Amy Friedlander, but that meeting never happened. Instead, loved ones are grieving tonight over the shocking murder suicide that claimed the lives of the estranged couple and their two children, Molly ten and Gregory, eight.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s horrible. I have a knot in my stomach, and I don`t think it is going to go away for a long time.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What could have been so horrible, to do this, especially to your own children.
PINSKY: Police believe Sam snapped over the split with his wife. They say he bludgeoned his wife with a leg from a piece of furniture, then shot and killed his two young children in bed, tucking them in, before turning a shotgun on himself.
PINSKY (voice-over): A funeral for Amy Friedlander and her two young children is planned for Sunday in her home state of Pennsylvania.
Why are husbands and ex-husbands and seemingly what were loving dads turning into cold-blooded killers? Here to help me answer that question are clinical psychologist, Michelle Golland and Tracy Connor. She is the reporter for the "New York Daily News." She`s been covering the story since it broke.
Tracy, you recently spoke to the man whose daughter and two children - - they`re the grandchildren, right, of who murdered, this is the grandfather? Is that right you interviewed?
TRACY CONNOR, REPORTER, NEW YORK DAILY NEWS: It`s the grandfather of the children. His name is Gary Perez, and I spoke to him yesterday on his way to the funeral home.
PINSKY: And let me ask you this. Is there -- given that you`ve been following this story, is there any -- do you have any added understanding of this or how to make sense of it. I mean, one of the things I mentioned Michelle during the break, I had heard that he was on some medication, and one of the really unfortunate disasters that can happen when people are on psychotropic sometimes is a manic episode can be induced and they can do horrible things then.
Is there any evidence of anything like that or is this all just the stress of the times added to a divorce and just a really unfortunate break?
CONNOR: Well, the police said that in the days before the murder suicide, the husband had been acting more erratically. The father of the dead woman and the grandfather of the children says this had been festering for a long time, that there had been long-standing resentment, and it had just built up and built up.
And he was obsessed and controlling and basically just couldn`t handle the divorce, although, he never thought there would be violence.
PINSKY: Michelle, how do we make sense of it? I mean, there are plenty of divorces in this country that don`t right in violence and not only did this one end in violence, but bizarre violence against the children. I mean, cob (ph).
MICHELLE GOLLAND, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I think what happens in these situations is that husbands and fathers see their families as extensions of themselves.
PINSKY: Now, I`m going to stop you with that, because I don`t think people are accustomed to understanding what people in mental health mean when they say that.
PINSKY: What we`re talking about is a psychological sense that everything important in my life, the people I love, the people I created, the people I work with are really a part of me. There`s no boundary between self.
PINSKY: Not in a cognitive sense. They understand that the people are separate.
PINSKY: But it doesn`t feel separate to them. So, when there`s stress like this in certain circumstances, those people become part of them.
GOLLAND: Right. And there is no way that he could rationally be able to separate in a divorce from his wife.
PINSKY: Because she was part of him.
GOLLAND: Because she was part of him, or his children would be able to be apart from him, and there`s the other piece of this is, the narcissism that comes out in failure, right? A failed marriage, and if there`s financial difficulties.
PINSKY: Financial difficulties must be --
GOLLAND: Huge for so many people.
PINSKY: Fair enough. Yes.
GOLLAND: And the humiliation and shame that becomes so deep in these men that they don`t want anyone to survive, to witness, right, who would be close to them, this type of the divorce or losing a house or losing money or any of those things. So, they destroy the family.
PINSKY: And I would imagine something we call a narcissistic rage, which is that shame that evokes these incredible murderous rages.
PINSKY: Oh, absolutely. Well, WCBS in New York talked to a neighbor who worked with the Friedlanders. The neighbor did not want to be identified but had this to say about the couple. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You would see Amy out in the driveway playing with the kids and the fisher-price toys. Sam would be in the yard doing whatever he had to do. And this is a shock, to bludgeon your wife, and then, turn a shotgun on your children makes no sense.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Yes. That`s what happened. I mean, I guess that`s the first time you and I have sat here hearing that`s what happened. Bludgeon the wife, shotgun on the kids. That neighbor`s wife is the owner of a local restaurant where surveillance video captured Sam Friedlander just one day before these awful murders. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My wife tells me that he was jovial, he was upbeat, and there was no indication that she gave that would indicate anything was askew.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Tracy, do you have any more information for us about whether this couple had been treated, whether he had been treated? I mean, is there anything to help us kind of just put the pieces together and make sense of this disaster?
CONNOR: The father did not mention any kind of counseling that they had received. He did say his wife had been under a lot of -- the wife had been under a lot of stress. She had, perhaps, been taking some medication and seeking some help, but that had been a number of years in the past.
PINSKY: And as you report on this and put this thing together, in your own mind, I know you try to stay dispassionate as a reporter, but do you want the public to know something about this? Is there anything we can learn from a disaster like this?
CONNOR: Well, I think it`s just incomprehensible. I don`t really know that there`s much to be learned from it.
PINSKY: We kind of think there`s a little bit to be learned. I`ll let you --
GOLLAND: I think what`s important in this economy right now is, and not just in the case of this divorce, but we see it even, Dr. Drew, where couples, you know, a father kills the entire family because he lost his job.
GOLLAND: And they were going to lose the house, it wasn`t a divorce, it was literally, I can`t leave my family in shambles, so I`m just going to take everyone with me.
PINSKY: And again the shame.
GOLLAND: And the shame. And we need to be aware, and if we see signs of depression to help our neighbors, to help our family, particularly men, as you know, who don`t seek out mental health treatment.
PINSKY: Right. That we have to remember that in stressful times, you`re going to see an increase, an uptake in severe consequences of inattention to mental health issues, right?
PINSKY: That`s what we`re saying here. And that we`ve come on the heels of a narcissistic wave which is what we`ve been talking about in this segment where people are more narcissistic, and we just all art the nature of what`s going on in this country.
PINSKY: And as a result, we`re going to see these kinds of things, I`m sorry to say.
Up next, is there anything to learn from these murders and how can we prevent them in the future.
And next, well, we have big developments in the Conrad Murray trial as the defense takes over. Get all the breaking news at hlntv.com/michaeljackson.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would ask any of the people in town to basically just hug your kids, give them the support you can. We`re a very close community, and this is a horrible reality to us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is something, perhaps, to make sense of this or to take away from this horrible, horrible murder. Tonight, a New York community continues to mourn the loss of entire family. Two young children shot and killed by their father after he murdered their mother, then turned the gun on himself.
Michelle, I know we`ve been talking about narcissism, that sort of thing. I want to talk about marriage. And I think we live in a time where people have considered marriage sort of a disposable, you know, or just a piece of paper, but what I would like you to address, and I`ll talk about this, too, in a minute, but I`m of the opinion that piece of paper has deep, profound emotional and spiritual implications, and if we don`t really live -- if we don`t acknowledge that and learn to embrace that as a culture, we`re going to see more disasters.
GOLLAND: Absolutely. And I have to say, I think that, you know, our generation doesn`t -- we haven`t been given a model, Dr. Drew, of how to live in an authentic, honest, connected marriage where you have kids and you`re both working and you actually still want to be together and go to dinner and have sex. Like, that`s not -- we don`t talk about what that`s like into your 40s and 50s and beyond.
PINSKY: But also, we didn`t have stable, intimate connections in our family origin.
PINSKY: So, we have no way to translate that to a marriage. And then, we have a culture that goes, oh, marriage, it`s just a piece of paper.
PINSKY: Just one of those institutions that`s been around. Maybe it`s outdated. Nonsense. Nonsense.
PINSKY: Nonsense to what I say.
GOLLAND: Absolutely. And I think, you know, the thing that we can also learn from a situation like this is this is a divorce situation. Try to get in to counseling and get help.
GOLLAND: Before you`re going to divorce, and if you`re going to divorce, there are psychologist that do divorce mediation and help you through the emotional updowns.
PINSKY: Again, divorce is not just a legal maneuver, it`s not just tearing other piece of paper, it tears deeply at the soul of the individuals involve and can have dire, dire consequences.
PINSKY: Thank you, Michelle.
I want to kind of wrap this up if we possible can with a few words. Now, a number of you probably can`t believe that someone would kill their own loved one or just over a divorce or custody dispute, but listen, as I`ve said here to Michelle, marriage and -- marriage is not just a piece of paper. These are not casual associations.
And by the way, even people who don`t have the piece of paper, there are living with someone for long period of time, we affect one another. Relationships are can be -- are supposed to be profound, spiritual, and emotional connections with deep implications. This is not bad that they`re like that. This is good. It`s what makes them valuable.
It`s when people are at the end of their life and trying to make meaning of it, it is those relationships they think of. It`s not something we should be free and easy about. Being free and easy about our friends and our family can be not only damaging because we don`t make the deep connections but damaging when they rupture. These relationships are not disposable.
So, if any good comes from tragic and extraordinary cases like those we examined tonight, I hope it`s a renewed focus on who in our lives really matter, and perhaps, think about this supposed outdated institution we call marriage that maybe it`s there for a reason. Maybe it`s something in us that caused us to create this institution. We should treat it with greater respect.
Thank you all for watching. Thank you Michelle in this segment. I will see you next time.