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New Clues in the Hunt for Baby Lisa?
Aired October 24, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
A man caught on videotape could hold the key to the Baby Lisa mystery. So why is the focus still on her mother? I will explore this.
And a teen contacts her mother four months after she vanished, says she wants to come home. A woman who lived the same nightmare says escape will not be easy.
Plus, the Conrad Murray defense begins. We know what his lawyers are thinking, but what is going through his mind?
Let`s get started.
Welcome to the show.
New developments tonight in the case of Baby Lisa. Who is this mystery man spotted in a video you`re about to see? A cadaver dog has apparently hit on the scent of a dead body in the mother`s bedroom, and three witnesses said they spotted a man with a baby in the middle of the night.
And tonight, there`s footage of a man fitting that description not far from Baby Lisa`s home. Watch this.
NANCY GRACE, HOST, "NANCY GRACE" (on camera): A 2-month-old baby girl sleeping in a crib just a few feet from her own mother goes missing without a trace.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her mom was the last to see her alive, but she told NBC last week she was drunk that night.
PINSKY: Tonight, new developments in the case of missing Baby Lisa. Is there a possible break in the case?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New surveillance video could bring police one step closer to finding 11-month-old Baby Lisa.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The mystery man spotted shortly after the young child disappears from her crib in the middle of the night.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`ve seen a gentleman walking up the street, carrying a baby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What does all of this mean? And are investigators even taking a look at this?
PINSKY: So is the man in that surveillance video connected to the disappearance of missing Baby Lisa? Is this the suspect the police and the family - family particularly has been praying for and the police have been searching for? What about the cadaver dog hit in the home and why are the parents not cooperating with the police?
But tonight, I have a special guest. Very close to the family to help answer these and other questions. He is a private investigator, Bill Stanton. Bill, how are Deborah and the rest of the family doing?
BILL STANTON, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Well, to my knowledge, obviously this is devastating, and we all could say we could imagine, but we can`t unless it specifically happened to us, and I will tell you they`re staying strong and hopeful.
PINSKY: Now, here is lawyer Joe Tacopina on NBC`s "Today" Show talking about why the cadaver dog may have scented a dead person.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE TACOPINA, FAMILY ATTORNEY: What a cadaver dog looks for, smells for, is decomposition of human remains, and decomposition of human remains is when they say they discovered a dead body or scent of a dead body, that`s what they`re smelling, the decomposition of human remains.
And what that could be aside from a dead body and skin peeling, Savannah, it can be fecal matter. And fecal matter, as we all know, is often found - found in the diaper of a 10-month-old baby. So, you know, it could be toe nails that, you know, you clip on your bed and hit the rug or something. That is decomposition of human matter.
So, you know, it could be one of many, many things.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, Bill, I don`t know anything about these cadaver dogs. So, do you buy that, that the cadaver dog is so nonspecific in what they`re - what they`re hitting on?
STANTON: Well, I`ll never second guess the KCPD or the FBI, but Joe makes a lot of sense. And what I`m going to go to is timeline. I mean, how long could that baby have been there? I`m not saying discount the family completely, but, you know, me in my personal investigation and the experts I`ve spoken to, we`ve taken a long, hard look and keep scratching our head.
PINSKY: Well, Bill, let me interrupt you - yes. Let`s go through the timeline the night Baby Lisa went missing.
PINSKY: So we have 4:40 P.M. We`re going to put this up as full screen. Here we go. 4:40 P.M., Deborah goes to the store with her brother to buy wine. We`ve seen that video. After buying wine, Deborah puts Lisa to bed at now 6:40. She then drinks with her neighbor I guess on the porch, right? Bill, is that right?
STANTON: Right. In the front of the house, correct, on the stoop.
PINSKY: And this is something they - and this is something they do very routinely, I guess, and this is sort of the social hour that the moms get together and they`re on the porch. They`re there until 10:30 when she says she went to bed.
Now, two hours later, witness reports seeing the man carrying a baby down the street. At 4:00 A.M. another witness says she sees a man matching the description holding a baby only three miles away and that`s also the same hour that Jeremy calls 911.
So, finding the time where something could have happened is kind of difficult, right?
STANTON: It`s a compelling timeline. And that`s what I keep saying. Let`s keep one eye on the family, but you know, this is such compelling information to me. How can we not pay attention where you have a man with a child that`s not wrapped up, that`s seemingly in just a diaper walking at this hour of the night in that night chill. I mean, this is - this gives me goose bumps.
I mean, if it wasn`t - if it wasn`t for this dire situation, it`s almost like a mystery novel or a game, but this isn`t a game, this is serious. And that`s why there`s a $100,000 reward and I want to keep focus on outside of the home.
PINSKY: Well, let me just ask one quick question about in the home. Mom has been sort of, you know, changing her story a bit. And now she says she drank until she blacked out. I guess there`s some quote of her saying that.
So is that 6:40 timeline of putting the baby to bed, do you think that`s accurate?
STANTON: I don`t - I don`t think that - you know what? I`ve met them. I`ve spoken to them. I`ve interviewed them. And this timeline thing, I`m going to go more to media, I mean, to be quite frank, where you have interviewers doing a fantastic job, and what`s the term, Doc, leading the witness. And she`ll say, yes, OK, or, you know, I could have seen it then, or the person could have gotten in the house. And then the media jumps on that and dissects it.
Well, if you didn`t throw all these scenarios and what ifs, you know, she`s answering the questions as best she can. But even if the timeline is changed, then you tell me will someone tell me how did she do this, when did she do this, and where did she go with that baby. And for the life of me it`s not coming back that she did it at this time.
Now, there may be a wild card that we haven`t seen and I`m open to that -
STANTON: -- but someone needs to present that to me.
PINSKY: I understand. Let`s talk about other possible sort of scenarios. I mean, are the - are the neighbors being interviewed? I mean, the only person I`ve heard about being interviewed is the - is the woman that was drinking with the mom, and so I sort of have two questions. One, are they really putting their net out appropriately, and if they`re not, why are they so focused on the family?
STANTON: Well, Doc, that`s a very good question. And off camera, I`m happy to answer. But I - as I`ve said in the press conference, all hands on deck, hands off the KCPD and FBI investigation. I never want to be accused on would I ever want to impede their investigation. What I`m doing is parallel and independent, and I don`t want to mess with what they have going on. They`re not informing me, nor am I asking them.
But I have to believe these guys are professional and they`re doing everything possible. Remember, the bad guy is out there, it`s not law enforcement.
PINSKY: All right. And let me - let me ask - since you don`t want to get in the way of any of that stuff, but you have talked to the family -
PINSKY: -- let me ask just a couple of questions about the family that I - I really don`t fully understand. The mom`s unwillingness to let the sons talk to the police, can you explain that to me?
STANTON: It`s my - it`s my understanding that the children did speak to the police. Again, I think that`s more of a Joe Tacopina question.
From my viewpoint, they have been cooperating. I mean, listen, I sat them down and I said I am not here for you, I am here to work with you. And if the truth leads me or the facts lead me that you`re the perpetrator or you`re the bad guy, I`m coming after you, and they had no problem with that. And that I will be honest impressed me, when they totally gave me full access, and they continue.
Now, maybe at some point that will change. But as of this time since day one, they have been cooperating with me, and I believe KCPD fully.
PINSKY: Is there - I`m going to ask you perhaps an unfair question since you don`t want to put the police on their heels. Do you think there`s anything specific that, first of all, do you think we the media should be doing anything different? And, secondly, do you think the community or the police should be doing anything different to get to the bottom of this?
STANTON: Well, I think overall, the media, and you, Drew, you and I have spoken off camera, I think you guys are doing a fantastic job because you`re bringing attention to this. You know, there is a $100,000 reward and people are stepping up. And I do believe that baby is out there. And all the searches where nothing comes up, that`s encouraging because that baby could very well be alive, and that`s what the hope and that`s what I think we`re all praying for.
And I think and I do believe the KCPD and FBI, they want what we want, the truth. And wherever that truth leads, let`s go there and find a resolution.
PINSKY: Well, thank you, Bill, for joining us this evening.
Now, the mom, Deborah Bradley, said she had enough wine to blackout the night that she went missing. Next, I`m going to talk to a mom who says it`s OK for a mom to drink after she puts the kids to sleep. Maybe she`ll - maybe we`ll talk about when that goes too far and when it`s OK.
And the defense took center stage today in the Conrad Murray trial. We`ll show you what happened in court.
In the meantime, get the latest at HLNTV.com/michaeljackson. And please stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEBORAH BRADLEY, MISSING CHILD`S MOTHER: He came home and I was - he said she`s not in her crib, and I said, "What do you mean she`s not in her crib?" And I just knew, you know, something was really wrong, and we were running around the house, screaming for her, she was nowhere.
And then I said, "Call 911. Call 911." And he said, "Where are the phones?" And they weren`t on the counter where I left them, they were gone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you want to tell that person other than dropping them off, I mean, what do you want to tell them about Lisa?
BRADLEY: She`s everything. She`s our little girl. She`s completed our family and she - she means everything to my boys and we need her home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Welcome back. We are live tonight.
And that was Deborah Bradley, pleading for the safe return of her daughter, Baby Lisa.
Now, we all remember the surveillance video of Deborah buying wine with her brother the night the daughter went missing. There`s that video again beside me. Deborah admitted that she was drunk and has used the term "blacked out" as I understand it, that she actually blacked out the night her baby vanished.
Here is how she defended herself on the "Today" show.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you drinking that night?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much?
BRADLEY: Enough to be drunk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So were you drunk?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of people are going to say, "Deborah, you were drunk that night, is there any chance you did anything to hurt your daughter that you`re just not telling us?"
BRADLEY: No, no, no. And if I thought there was a chance, I`d say it. No, no. I don`t think that alcohol changes a person enough to do something like that.
PINSKY: Well, let me kind of take issue with a couple of things here.
Alcohol, when people are on drugs like alcohol, they can change a lot. Some people change dramatically, can become aggressive, and they don`t perceive themselves as such.
By the same token, let me clarify before that little piece of video I said that she had - I heard that she had said she had blacked out. Now, blacked out is not passed out. People need to understand that different. Passed out is passed out, you`re on the floor, you`re down. Blacked out is where you lose the capacity to store long-term memory, so you don`t remember what you did.
Now, she said - please don`t do that. Put it back where we were. Thank you. She`s saying she was having her grownup time and there`s nothing wrong her with doing that if we want to after dark, that`s according to her. Well, grownup time is, of course, being a responsible adult when you have three young children in the home. And you want to drink, it would be grown up to get a babysitter and go to the bar.
Now, getting drunk enough that you don`t remember what you did and there are three kids in the house and no other adult, that`s a pretty serious problem, and I wouldn`t call that behaving very grown up.
Joining me tonight, Rachael Brownwell, author of "Mommy Doesn`t Drink Here Anymore." And in Kansas City, in front of Baby Lisa`s home, CNN correspondent Sandra Endo. Sandra, what is the latest?
SANDRA ENDO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I can tell you, Dr. Drew, that we had an extensive interview with the lawyer for Deborah Bradley and Jeremy Irwin. Interesting to note, because you mentioned what she said, the comments that she made, that she was drunk, drinking that night.
I asked the lawyer, did she regret saying those comments to the public and also regret what she did that night? The lawyer said, look, like she mentioned, there was grownup time. People put their kids to sleep and they drink, and that is OK. Does she regret it? No, because what Deborah Bradley was doing, according to the lawyer, was being open and honest with investigators because her main concern is to find Baby Lisa, according to the lawyer.
So that is why she said things in the media that may not make her be perceived as all these things that she`s being portrayed as now, but, in the matter of openness, and in the vein of trying to find her baby, that is why, her lawyer says, she made all those comments.
PINSKY: Sandra, did - did you hear that she had said she blacked out? She drank `til she blacked out? I - I don`t consider that grownup time. In fact, blacking out is a sign, those people like me that work in the disease - in the treatment of alcoholism and addiction, we consider blacking out a sign of alcoholism, not grownup time.
Is that a report that you heard, that she`s used the word blacked out?
ENDO: I have heard those terms being floated around, whether it`s from Deborah Bradley herself in other media interviews a couple of weeks ago. We haven`t heard that being mentioned around here from her lawyers, of course, or from the family members as of late.
But, clearly, they are trying to show and spin this idea that she is just a 25-year-old mother, and she is thrown into this whirlwind of media attention and, of course, this amazing case of this missing baby. So that is why her lawyer`s explaining her behavior. And, of course, nothing, as you mentioned, Dr. Drew, is - can - can really account for and, you know, give an excuse good enough if she did, in fact -
ENDO: -- black out that night the baby went missing.
PINSKY: That`s right.
Now, we have a piece of breaking news here, new information. KCTV reporters bumped into Deborah this afternoon. They apparently had a spontaneous exchange with the mother, Deborah Bradley. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it true that you`re getting paid to avoid local reporters?
BRADLEY: Not at all.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Then why wouldn`t you talk to us?
BRADLEY: Because we`re grieving.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Sandra, did you know anything about that exchange?
ENDO: Yes. Absolutely. We were there when that exchange happened. Producer Sara Weisfeldt was there and heard the exchange happen. We saw Deborah Bradley walk into the home of her relative where they`re staying, just six minutes from this home here. And she did look distraught, and in terms of being tired because of all the draining effects of this case.
But we heard her say that. My producer, Sara, definitely heard that exchange as to whether or not she`s getting paid. According to her lawyer, they are not getting paid to talk to certain media as opposed to another. And now they are being more open as to what the status and how she is coping and the day to day mindset of Deborah Bradley.
And, according to the lawyer, Dr. Drew, she`s saying that she`s actually seeking spiritual help right now, and today was the first day she met with a spiritual leader.
PINSKY: And - and Sandra, before I let you go, one last question about that little exchange you had down there, which was she says she`s grieving. And doesn`t that imply that she has knowledge of the child`s death, and is anyone making anything of that?
ENDO: It was very interesting choice of words. Obviously, when she said that, we were kind of scratching our heads, saying why did she say that word? Why did she choose to say that phrase?
And, of course, I`ll leave it to you and the expert as to what goes through somebody`s mind when they`re thrown into a situation like this. But clearly all of us were shocked that she said that word, "grieving," when she replied to the reporter.
PINSKY: Thank you, Sandra.
Rachael, I`m going to go to you now. Now, here`s the deal. Am I right, Rachael, that you believe that it`s OK for moms to have - to tip a few here and there - and I`m not saying it isn`t. But that`s sort of your position, that - that`s it`s unfair of us to pile on this mom?
RACHAEL BROWNWELL, AUTHOR, "MOMMY DOESN`T DRINK HERE ANYMORE": It - it is unfair. You know, again, we - we don`t know what was done in terms of whether she actually said she was blacked out or not, and that`s a whole different ball of wax. But I would definitely stand behind the idea that normal drinkers, people that don`t have a problem with alcohol, should be able to drink a little bit after their kids go to bed, for sure.
PINSKY: You know, I`m an addictionologist, and I absolutely agree with you.
However, when - when people have consequences, and - and Rachael, I`m going to keep you over after the break. We`re going to continue this conversation. Are - we`ll have her, the control room (ph)? Do I have Rachael at any point after this? OK. I`m going to try to keep you around, so hold in there.
PINSKY: But, you know, when people have consequences and when they black out, we are talking about something different. I think you would agree with me on that one, Rachael, correct?
BROWNWELL: Definitely. Definitely agree with you there.
PINSKY: OK. All right.
BROWNWELL: And I think a lot of times, the problem with being - yes.
PINSKY: I - I got to get out of here. Sorry about that. I`m going to try to keep you around.
So, have you ever had a drink or two or three while looking after your kids? Tell us what you think about that, "On Call" next.
And later, a woman who was a teen sex slave tells us why a girl who vanished four months ago and now wants to come home will in fact have a rough time of it.
PINSKY: Welcome back, and we are live tonight. And what I love about live television is we do things on the fly here, and, if you have been watching, I have been kind of pounding on my control room and drive my producers crazy tonight, and I didn`t get to Rachael, so I brought - want to bring Rachael into my "On Call" segment with me.
So, Rachael, we`re going to answer some Facebook questions together, and I want to finish my interview with you -
PINSKY: -- along the way here. So first, to you, what do you think it is about motherhood that makes mothers drink?
BROWNWELL: Well, I think a lot of people drink for a lot of reasons. I would say I drank because I was an alcoholic, of course. But I think a lot of women and - and people that are home with small children during the day are looking for that way to relax that doesn`t involve having to hire a babysitter and leave the house.
And, for me, wine started out as a way to relax, because raising children is stressful, and that`s not news to anybody. But I think moderate drinking is one way, including exercise and fresh air, that people can use to sort of de-stress after raising kids all day.
PINSKY: And - and I would say, if you have a family history of alcoholism or if you`ve ever had consequences from substances, if you`ve ever been addicted to anything, if you have momentum with alcohol, not good for you, like it wasn`t good for Rachael.
So let`s answer a Facebook question.
BROWNWELL: Right. Right.
PINSKY: This is Jean, who writes, "I noticed that many people I know who have a problem with alcohol try to keep it a secret. Is that common?" And I think you`d agree with me, Rachael, a lot of shame and secrecy involved in alcoholism. We - we have a saying that you`re as sick as your secrets.
PINSKY: Right. And I think especially for mothers who have a problem with drinking.
First of all, you`re - I was in a lot of denial about how much I drank. I figured it was just fine that I was having probably about a bottle of wine a night. I didn`t see a problem.
And then, the second thing is, I knew I didn`t drink like the other women at the play groups, and I had to sort of pre-function those events and drink before those events, because I didn`t want them to think I had a problem with alcohol.
So there`s a lot of layers there, for sure.
PINSKY: You had to dose yourself up before getting to the PTA meeting.
BROWNWELL: Yes. I know. It`s ridiculous. Yes.
PINSKY: Misty writes - we can laugh about it because you`re in recovery now. It`s not so funny when people suffer with the disease (ph).
BROWNWELL: Yes. Right.
PINSKY: Here`s Misty in Facebook. She says, "I definitely need my adult time. I have four kids - ages seven to 15." God bless you, Misty. "I don`t let them see me drinking, but I have no problem with putting myself into a much calmer state."
Again, I don`t know if Misty has a problem or not. I - I don`t want to - it`s comical. I don`t want to make too much light of this.
BROWNWELL: Yes. Yes.
PINSKY: Again, I think the important point, Rachael, for us both to point out here is that there are signs when there is a problem. If somebody says I blacked out, would you not agree that`s a major sign?
BROWNWELL: That`s a major sign, but I would also say that a lot of people I`ve talked to don`t even know what black out is, and, if they have blacked out, they don`t even realize it. So, I would say yes, although that is not the self reported symptom I would go to, first of all, to help someone break through their denial. It`s tricky.
PINSKY: And finally - it is - it is tricky. It`s difficult.
Finally, a last Facebook question, I can see if - again, I`m driving my control room crazy, see I can put - if they can put this up. Danielle - it`s a very easy one. She asked, "Is alcoholism seen as a progressive disease?"
And, absolutely. That is a feature of this condition, and it`s not just necessarily even the progressive use, it`s the progressive consequences. Mounting consequences, mounting use, and genetic history really adds up to the - and denial, as you said, Rachael.
Rachael, thank you very much for joining me on this "On Call" segment.
BROWNWELL: Thank you.
PINSKY: I appreciate you putting up with my little hybrid tonight, and we`ll hopefully have you back in sometime soon.
Next up, the prosecution wraps up its case in the Michael Jackson death trial, with reports of in fighting on the Conrad Murray defense team. We`re going to get into this and more, so do stick around with us.
PINSKY (voice-over): Coming up, a missing 15-year-old who may have run off with an older man contacts her mother through Facebook. She says she`s pregnant and wants to come home. Was she kidnapped? Is she a sex slave? Did she run away?
And next, the Conrad Murray defense begins, dueling propofol experts take center stage, but when?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): And tonight, the state rests its case in the Michael Jackson death trial, but the atmosphere in the courtroom has been anything but restful. The defense took particular issue when the state`s propofol expert commented on their propofol expert. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED CHERNOFF, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And then, you came into court and said, I`m disappointed in Dr. White, right?
DR. STEVEN SHAFER, ANESTHESIOLOGIST: Correct.
CHERNOFF: You preferred to shove it down his professional throat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, argumentative question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Chernoff --
CHERNOFF: Dr. Shafer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just a moment, please.
CHERNOFF: OK. I`ll withdraw the question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Another question.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Ryan, very tense atmosphere in today`s testimony. A lot of posturing, a lot of infighting. Is the defense keeping it together or are they falling apart?
RYAN SMITH, HOST, IN SESSION ON TRUTV: You know, it`s tough to say because there were reports that this weekend, Ed Chernoff, who`s staying at Michael Flanagan`s place, his co-defense attorney there took off, and now, moved into some place in Santa Monica, because he was staying there during the duration of the trial. So, maybe if you believe those reports, you read into it, that there`s some anger between the two of them, but I don`t see it in court, Dr. Drew.
I was there today, and they looked like they were going business as usual. But I tell you with these experts, they are trying to get Dr. Shafer to say that maybe he is venturing in certain ways outside of his area of expertise, because today, they started introducing the idea of him talking about Michael Jackson wasn`t addicted to Demerol.
And they said, how can you really know that? Then, he said well, I`ve had some experience with some of this, but it became one of these situations where they tried to catch him maybe stretching it a little in his opinion. So, they`re really going after this expert, and Dr. White is going to be a good one for the defense in terms of trying to contradict Dr. Shafer.
PINSKY: Now, perhaps, one of the most powerful moments in today`s testimony was a short exchange between prosecutor, Ed Chernoff and Michael Jackson`s former doctor, Allan Metzger. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHERNOFF: Did you ever give Michael Jackson propofol?
DR. ALLAN METZGER, TREATED MICHAEL JACKSON: Never.
CHERNOFF: Is there any amount of money that you would have -- that would have convinced you to give him intravenous propofol in his house?
METZGER: Absolutely not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Seemed like I think that was more of a powerful blow for the prosecution, was it not, using a defense witness for the prosecution?
SMITH: You got it.
PINSKY: That must have hurt.
SMITH: That hurt a lot. And you know, the whole reason they called Dr. Metzger, he`s a doctor that was Michael Jackson`s doctor and the doctor for his kids for years. He even saw Michael two weeks before his death and said that he gave him Klonopin to help him sleep, because Michael was having sleep problems.
They tried to use him to set up the idea that Michael Jackson needed that sleep medication. But then, the prosecution had that statement come out, and it just changed the entire game. And all the while, the jury was taking notes.
It just goes to show that even with this witness being a defense witness, he came off like a prosecution witness because he said, hey, no matter what was going on here, I never would have done what Conrad Murray did. And, he said he wouldn`t do it for money, and that really hammered home the point.
PINSKY: And Ryan, I got to tell you something. I want to make some sense of this for my viewing audience a little bit. Unfortunately, I can`t quite reach the jury, but the aspects of this that so troubling, first of all, Dr. Metzger giving Michael Jackson benzodiazepines, bad -- I mean, that to me is, again, like you got to be kidding. This guy is struggling with a serious history of addiction.
He`s clearly in drug withdrawal now that everyone is calling insomnia. It`s drug withdrawal. That`s what that is. He goes into withdrawal every evening. And then, in this piece of paper, in his interview, Dr. Murray with the police says, well, I knew Dr. Klein and Dr. Metzger were prescribing drugs, but Michael wanted to keep that quiet or keep that to himself.
Why didn`t he call the other doctors? That`s all he had to do. And if I were Dr. Metzger, I`d be beside myself angry that all that stuff was going on in a patient I was prescribing to without my knowledge. Did any of that kind of stuff, that kind of frustration come out from Dr. Metzger today?
SMITH: No. And Dr. Metzger remained very calm, because what you said really means a lot for him, because think about it, he`s on that stand, right? Then, he could very well be one of these doctors that the defense keeps talking about that just kind of enabled Michael Jackson. So, he got on the stand, and Drew, at one point he says, I treated Michael since the 1990s, but then he said, my treatment stopped after awhile.
Then, Michael Jackson calls him in 2009, kind of brings him back, but he makes it seem as if he`s not so involved with Michael`s treatment. So, it`s almost as if, you could say, I mean, one thing that stuck out to me is, Michael says he`s having trouble sleeping and you give him Klonopin, and you say -- in his testimony, he said, I figured, he would then come and check in with me if he was having a problem.
And I couldn`t remember the last time I had a doctor prescribed something to me and simply say, hey, call me if you have an issue, especially with a drug like that. But, he very much played it as if he was kind of hands off, that he saw Michael, that Michael told him some things, and after that, he kind of stepped away.
And I don`t know if that`s right or wrong, but you have Dr. Metzger in that courtroom, and I got the sense that he was trying to avoid being tied to this in any way.
PINSKY: I absolutely agree. I`m sure that`s what was going on there. It`s difficult. I don`t know. They`re trying to prove negligence, but they`re doing very little conversation about quality of medical care. That, to me is astonishing about this case.
PINSKY: But anyway, the defense began their case today with the surveillance video and a series of law enforcement witnesses. Why did they go there?
SMITH: Well, they tried to set the foundation for what they`re going to try to argue about the investigation, the 911 call, and in order to talk about, for example, they had a witness talked about the timing of the 911 call. And in order to talk about that and the way they want it to happen, they have to set the foundation for when it occurred.
So, they said that 911 call, for example, happened just a couple of minutes earlier. And what that does is, it shortens the window between when Dr. Murray saw Michael Jackson not breathing and he called 911. So, those were little tiny things they did in the beginning.
PINSKY: Well, Ryan, thank you for that update. I get so frustrated with this case, I got to tell you. I have a thing I keep on hand here to remind me how outrageous this whole thing is. This man, Michael Jackson, went to bed every night with this, because he was so sedated that he couldn`t function, he couldn`t get up to go to the bathroom, guys. That`s why he had to be hooked up to this.
So, I just keep this here to remind myself just how outrageous this situation is. And, as an addictionologist, all the multiple prescribing doctors not communicating with each other, bad timing. Poor Michael Jackson got the worst of my profession has to offer.
Again, thank you, Ryan.
Get the very latest on the Murray trial at hlntv.com/michaeljackson.
Next, a missing girl contacts her mother on Facebook and says she wants to come home. I`ll tell you what I make of that after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERI SIMONEK, ALIAS WHEELER`S MOTHER: She says that she is now -- she is in Mexico. She`s married, and that she is pregnant.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: At the top of the hour, my colleague, Joy Behar, has the latest on the search for Baby Lisa. That is 10:00 p.m. eastern right here on HLN.
Tonight, a troubled teen vanishes seemingly without a trace. Now, four really hellish months later, 15-year-old Alisa Wheeler`s mom says she received a cryptic Facebook message from her daughter that said, quote, "Mom, I`m in Mexico. I`m married, and I`m pregnant." Not words that moms or dads particularly want to hear from a 15-year-old.
Alisa`s mom believes her daughter was taken across the border by an older man. All she knows is she believes his name is Roy. She says her daughter found out he was married, and Alisa now has married another man, a mystery 23-year-old chap named Chico. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SIMONEK: She told me over and over again how sorry she has let me down. I believe she wants to come home, but she is scared for the man that she is with now, thinking he`s going to go to jail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I don`t know, that mom, her sort of affect troubles me. I wonder if her -- I wonder if she`s ever going to get to see her daughter again, for one thing. Now, she says right before Alisa left, the teen was into drugs and was using meth. And by the way, 15-year-olds, there`s no recreational meth use at 15. So, that`s a meth addict.
And, I want to warn mothers and authorities, when you have a meth addict, particularly, a young person, don`t try to make sense of what they`re doing or figure out what`s going through their mind. They get into bizarre behaviors and bizarre thinking very often. These people, mom and the authorities, need to stay focused on getting her back to the U.S. for treatment, and moreover, save that baby.
There`s a baby who is being abused in this story, and this story is the story of drug addiction. She is in danger, and of course, as I said, the baby is in danger if she`s still doing drugs. Straight to my guests, Attorney Loni Coombs is here. Tanya Kach was held captive as a teen. She`ll have some very special insight. She`s going to be with me for a couple of segments, and KERO reporter, Chris Ornelas -- Ornelas I guess, is with us. What is the latest, Chris?
CHRIS ORNELAS, REPORTER, KERO: Well, we`re being told now that authorities are, in fact, trying to make contact with Alisa down in Mexico. Now, of course, because it`s an international situation, they`re having to bring the federal authorities in to get that done, but we are being told that they are getting closer to locating exactly where she is.
They think she`s somewhere in the Veracruz area. She is now saying, she wants to come home. And so, they are just trying to make that connection where they can get a hold of her and bring her back home here to current county Taft, actually, is the small town she`s from.
PINSKY: Chris, are there concerns about how this happened? You know what I`m saying? I mean, is there something wrong there? You know, how do we understand this? How do we make sense of it?
ORNELAS: Well, the mom openly admits that before she disappeared that she was having some trouble. She told her mom before she disappeared that she had started using meth and that she had slept with some adult men that were in the community, and there were even some rumors of possible prostitution going on with her.
And then, suddenly one night, she just left. And we now know in retrospect that she did, in fact, leave with that adult boyfriend, and they did go, in fact, down to Mexico.
PINSKY: But Chris, this is a horrible story of a 15-year-old in severe distress, major mental health meltdown here with addiction. Did anybody try to get this young kid help before this all went down?
ORNELAS: That is unknown right now. It`s unknown whether or not the mom had, in fact, got her any professional help. The mom did tell me that she did try to get her some help and get her away from the problem people that she was starting to hang around with. But it`s not clear whether or not she ever went to the professionals to try to get any assistance.
PINSKY: Yes. OK. But, thanks, Chris.
Loni, OK, so, I don`t know or understand this (ph). First of all, I know that this is a meltdown from a medical, mental health standpoint. This is bad times. And the fact that the mom was, you know, complaining or blaming the people around her, please, people, never say to yourself, not my kid or it`s the school`s fault or the friend`s fault, your kids have issues, get the kid treated. (INAUDIBLE)
But the question is, I don`t understand anything about what the mom`s options are. Can she go down there, abduct this kid? Can she pick up these two screw ball, you know, criminal men that have abducted her? What are her options?
LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: You know, it`s a really sticky situation. First of all, when you`re talking about international, it becomes very murky. We can`t go down. Law enforcement here are can`t just go down there and grab her and pull her back. Just like we wouldn`t want the Mexican authorities to come here and grab somebody.
You have to work with two different governments and law enforcement agencies, you have to follow their laws, their politics, their culture down there. When you`re there, you follow their rules. So, we can`t just run in and decide what we want to do.
PINSKY: But if she wants to come home, does that give her some freedom?
COOMBS: Yes, absolutely. I mean, she should be able to come back if she wants to. But, my mom radar is going off like crazy in this situation. I mean, from the very beginning, like you were saying. What was going on that this 14, then 15-year-old tells her mother I`m doing crystal meth, I`m dating this adult male, what is going on?
Why wasn`t it stopped there when the red flags were going like crazy? Then, she takes off. And honestly, from that point on, we really don`t know what`s going on. Did she really go down to Mexico? Did she find out this guy was married. Did she marry one else? This is all based on Facebook.
PINSKY: Loni, let me even go further, is that really her on that Facebook post --
PINSKY: Or somebody who did something? Is she in the sex trafficking or something?
COOMBS: Or heaven forbid dead and somebody is covering and making this contact so the mother stops worrying, so the mother stops doing what she`s doing. So, we really don`t know what`s going on. We don`t have enough information to say what they can do. You call these two men criminals, but we don`t know if she went willingly with them.
PINSKY: They`re still criminals. Come on now.
COOMBS: Well, in my mind and your mind, yes.
PINSKY: OK. Maybe not -- down there, I think it`s like 15, so it actually wouldn`t be.
COOMBS: For sexual activity down there in some places as young as 12.
PINSKY: OK, people. If you live in states that`s younger -- frankly, younger than 18, we ought to really think about this, but I`m just saying. At least in California, there`s a two year window that`s kind of makes sense, but the states that have, you know, 16, 14 --
COOMBS: Too young.
PINSKY: We know that neurobiologically. It makes me actually insane that we still have laws in this country, let alone, in our neighbor down south. Now, Tanya, you were kidnapped as a teen by a security guard who worked at your middle school. Let me just ask some quick questions about what your thinking is on this girl down in Mexico. Do you think the fact that she reached out to her mom is a good sign?
TANYA KACH, WAS KIDNAPPED AS A TEEN: I do believe it`s a very good sign that she reached out to her mom, absolutely. Absolutely. Then again, I`m just afraid that she`s being brainwashed. You don`t know what`s going on with her. She`s scared.
PINSKY: And as I understand, you went through something very much like that where you developed sort of a Stockholm syndrome. Can you tell us what happened in your case?
KACH: Absolutely. My school security guard lured me in when I was 14 years old. And, he brainwashed me, and then, I developed the Stockholm syndrome towards him.
PINSKY: So, you actually felt as though he was your protector. Did you actually fall in love with him as you thought of it?
KACH: Absolutely. I mean, when you hear day-in and day-out, look what I did for you, I saved your life. Look at what I`ve done for you. I`ve given up everything for you. I am your god. It`s in your head repetitively every single day. And that`s my fear with this girl is something being drilled into her head. That worries me.
PINSKY: Well, it certainly at one appointment, Tanya, I have no doubt that it was. I mean, that`s how this all happened or it was just everybody on a drug run which happens as well. Now, Alisa got to Mexico, I guess, she realized the man she ran away with was married, so she left him, according to her mother.
And now, as we`re finding out, she found another older man, Chico, was that his name? And now is pregnant by somebody. What do you think, Tanya, triggered her to want to leave if she`s in that deep?
KACH: You know what, every case is different, you know? (INAUDIBLE) You know, she was reaching out for love that apparently she might not have been getting at home. But she did it in the wrong way, which is what happened to me. You know, she needs to realize with her family sitting there, you know, they miss her.
They want her home. You know? She needs to come back home and be safe, especially not for her but for her baby.
PINSKY: Tanya, I think you summarized that very, very nicely. And it`s what, Loni, I think you meant when you said your mom radar was going off.
PINSKY: (INAUDIBLE) that fact. All right. Now, when we come back, Tanya`s advice for the missing 15-year-old. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KACH: I was in a room, a bedroom, for ten years. I didn`t see the light of day. There were times when I would threaten to leave, and there were times he threatened me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Loni, just before we go back to break, are there remedies out there? I mean -- or is it just about vigilance?
COOMBS: It`s about vigilance. If I was the mother, I would be on the first plane down there with a private investigator trying to find her and bring her back and maintain that contact through Facebook. Honestly, this Facebook might have totally saved this girl`s life.
PINSKY: Well, we`re going to continue this conversation after the break, as I said, but that`s the part that I think both you and I are feeling uncomfortable with. I don`t see that desperation on the mom. I don`t see her getting on a plane. Now, maybe, there`s a financial issue here. I understand that.
COOMBS: I`d mortgage anything I had to get down there. When she`s reached out, we know that she`s still alive --
PINSKY: I saw more desperation on Baby Lisa`s mom who is a suspect in a murder case.
PINSKY: So, I`m just saying. So, we got to take a quick break out. Loni, thank you. And Chris, actually, thank you for that report on the ground there. And of course, Tanya, we`ll have you back after this break. So, please stay with us.
PINSKY: Now, we are back with our guest talking about a 15-year-old California girl. She is missing now, and apparently, living with a man in Mexico. She is allegedly married and pregnant, and we know she apparently is OK, or we hope that she`s OK from a Facebook post. No one other than her, unfortunately, has seen this, other than the mom has seen this post, but I hope it is, in fact, from her.
No one has had any news from her in any other way. Now, Tanya, I want to go back to you. At 14, you were held captive for 10 years. You have been described as a sex slave, brainwashed, abused, and you`ve written a book about this, right?
PINSKY: What -- how did you escape and those listening and watching at home, what are we to learn about stories like yours?
KACH: With me, it is about the Stockholm syndrome, brainwashing. The way I got out of there, and it took me ten months to finally realize after he had let me out so brainwashed, it took me ten months to finally realize what life was like, and then, it hit me, oh, my goodness, this isn`t the way life is. And I realized what he had done to me for those ten years.
PINSKY: So, you think that -- so, I guess, one of your messages is when this girl does come home and her mental health issues are sorted out and her addiction is possibly treated, that just assimilating back into life having been held captive as you were is going to be a difficult transition?
KACH: It is going to be a difficult transition. But you know what, I did it and Elizabeth Smart did it. Jaycee Dugard did it. She can absolutely do it.
PINSKY: Loni, anything you like to say about this story?
COOMBS: Yes. I would like to thank Tanya for writing this book, and I think that, as a mother and as a parent, we should all consider having our daughters, especially read this book as a cautionary tale. More and more, we are seeing older men preying on these young girls. And if you think you can have this conversation with your daughter by the time they`re 15 or 16, it`s too late.
They`re being targeted at 12, 13, and they may be seduced by these older men. I think it`s some romantic notion to runoff with somebody they met on Facebook. Look at what really can happen in real life, what happened to Tanya, and what`s happening now to Alisa.
PINSKY: And Tanya again, the book is called "Memoir of a Milk Carton Kid."
PINSKY: "Memoir of a Milk Carton Kid." I want to thank you for writing that. I just imagine what your parents went through, and hopefully, you telling your story and will prevent other parents and other children having to go through such an awful experience. Thank you for joining us. And thank you, Loni. We, of course, have both of you back I hope soon.
I want to say a couple of words before we go. I`m going to hearken back to our Conrad Murray trial. And somehow, I wanted to point out. He sits there very stoically all day, and some people are wondering, you know, what is he thinking as he sits there listening to what, I think, to any of us would seem like painful testimony or at least shameful testimony.
And something I believe, at least, I think I understand about Conrad Murray is that he thinks, stay with me on this, I think he thinks he did the right thing. I think he believes he gave excellent care to his patient that he loved, his friend, both as a doctor and as a human being, and now, as a defendant.
He convinced himself that once he explained everything to the police, and of course, he convinced his attorneys of the same thing, they`d get it, they`d understand it, and they would understand that he just gave great personalized care to his dear, dear friend. And here`s when I think he fell victim to this.
Among other things we talked about on this show about his relationship with Michael was adulterated, he was a cardiologist, a specialist, who has no expertise in primary care, never done primary care, not a job for which he was qualified, and he may have been out of touch with what Michael Jackson needed.
We`ll see you next time.