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Serial Rapist Targeting Sorority Sisters?; Mansion Mystery Body to be Exhumed
Aired October 25, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RYAN SMITH, HOST, IN SESSION ON TRUTV (voice-over): Tonight, a serial rapist on the loose.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because somebody out there who may know who this person is.
SMITH: His victims have one thing in common. What`s driving the predator`s pattern? Where and when will he strike next?
Plus, the millionaire, the mansion and the mystery. A disturbing twist in a suspicious death. New plans to exhume the body. What does Dr. Phil have to do with it?
And later, a controversial parenting book is blamed for the tragic death of two children. The author joins me live.
(on camera): Good evening. I`m Ryan Smith, sitting in for Dr. Drew tonight.
An apparent serial rapist has attacked four women across suburban Dallas. Folks, this is scary and this is very real. Take a look.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The manhunt is on for a rape suspect in Texas who may be targeting members of the same sorority.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has assaulted at least four women so far.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our victims all have been associated with the same sorority alumni group.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In this particular case, it`s been women in their 50s or 60s.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cops don`t know who he is, but say he seems to know a lot about the women he`s accused of raping.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He made it, you know, obvious to our victims that he knew details or information about them personally.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The surveillance video from back in April of the man they believe is the person responsible and the person they`re trying to track down.
SMITH: Now, the victims all reported that the rapist seemed to know something about them. Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPT. GREG WILKERSON, CORINTH, TEXAS POLICE DEPT.: We feel not only is he doing his research, you know, he`s possibly conducting surveillance. So he, you know, he`s spending some time around the area, around the residences prior to the attacks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: I mean, this stuff shocks you, right? And all four women were raped at home. And the connection between them, they were all members of the Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, the largest African-American Greek lettered sorority in the world.
Now, warnings were sent to sorority members to be on the lookout and to take precautions.
So let`s try to make sense of this. Because you hear about something like this, and it just shocks the conscience. Many of the victims in their 40s and 50s. And so you wonder what the connection is.
Psychotherapist Robi Ludwig and criminal profiler Candice DeLong are with us, and also to update us from the scene, Ed Lavandera, our CNN correspondent, joins us with the latest.
Ed, talk to us about the apparent connection here and is there any way that this could be a possible coincidence?
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Police definitely don`t think so. I mean, to come out and release that video, that surveillance video, we don`t know where that originated from or where they got that from, and what led them to find that. They wouldn`t - they wouldn`t tell us.
But they strongly believe that this is the person that they`re looking for. And I think this is based heavily, I mean, obviously, there`s a great deal of information that they`re not putting out publicly, but I think a lot of it is based on the - the versions of what happened based on what these four women told them and how similar the descriptions were of the suspect, it all seemed to match, and also based on perhaps what the attacker told them individually during the attack.
So, you know, there`s a great deal of information that authorities have to go on, and I think all of that is kind of, you know, coming together and pushing authorities into going down this path.
SMITH: Yes. Ed, when I mentioned that idea of a - of a coincidence, you see this happen, as I understand it - or actually let me ask you, tell us a little bit about the timeframe in which this happened and why officers believe that this is somehow linked to their - their membership in the Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, or is there some sense that - that there might be no connection? Give us a sense of that part of it and the aspects that connect all the women together.
LAVANDERA: Well, you know, what I thought was interesting was that I didn`t think that the victims` membership in the sorority group would be among the first five or ten questions that they would get from investigators in their cases. So obviously I thought it was something that would come later on. As you talk and then you`re trying to start, oh, you know, you start learning more about each of these victims and you realize that they`re a member of this organization.
But the attacks are very similar. They each happened while the women were home alone. It was late at night. They were sleeping. The attacks were I`m told without getting into many specifics were similar in the sense that there weren`t any - any beatings after the actual rape or any weapons used, all of that was similar. And the cops were telling me that the M.O. of each one of these attacks kind of fit a similar profile.
So when they were starting comparing notes with various police agencies, everything kind of narrowed down, and then they get to the information about, look, all of these four women are in the sorority and perhaps this is something we need to be looking a lot closer at.
SMITH: Ed, do they have a sense of how this man apparently got to each of these women? How he knew about them? Do they have any sense of this?
LAVANDERA: If they do, they`re not sharing it with us, but obviously there have been some warnings that have gone out in the last couple of days, urging these folks to say, look, if you wear a Delta Sigma Theta t- shirt or placards on your - on your car license plate, key chains, Facebook postings and Twitter pages, you know, many of these organizations have public websites where they post pictures from their parties and events or anything that they might be doing. Obviously, authorities believe that this might be an avenue where - where they get information.
In fact, there had been a letter from the national organization urging people to throw out and get rid of old address books and - and collections of all of this information, so there`s a great deal of information out there on people, and obviously police are trying to - to close up any gaps that this person might be using to go track down potential victims.
SMITH: You know, Candice DeLong, I want to bring you in on this one. We hear about this, and, man, obviously our hearts go out to the victims in this case.
What do you make of this person who apparently at least from what Ed is saying seems to be targeting sorority members? As I`ve read in their 40s and 50s, over maybe an 11-month period of time. What - what do you make of this person? What kind of profile do you build of this person?
CANDICE DELONG, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, I don`t know enough about his behavior, actually, I don`t know anything because the police aren`t releasing it, his behavior during the actual assaults, what he`s saying, what he`s doing. And that`s how profiles of rapists are developed.
However, I can tell you this. I believe that because he has attacked at least four women that have a connection, he`s probably going to be caught. He`s made a big mistake.
SMITH: Why do you think he`s made a big mistake? What is that mistake that you feel he`s made that hopefully will lead police to find him as soon as possible?
DELONG: Sure, because his victims are - there`s a connection between them, and the police through thorough and methodic - methodical work will probably be able to trace the source of the information that the offender himself is using and that will lead to the offender.
I`m not saying this is going to happen tomorrow or next week, but I think he`s made a big mistake by going after four women that have a connection to each other, even if - I don`t know if they know each other, if they socialize together, but they all belong to the same sorority, and that`s what I`m thinking as an investigator, yes.
SMITH: Yes. It makes it a lot easier for them hopefully to find this man and bring him to justice.
And, by the way, folks, the video that you`re looking at is the man the police suspect was involved in the rapes. So if you see a man looking like this, here is what I want you to do. I want you to call your local police department, give them a sense of what`s going on. If we have a number for you, we`ll put it up. But for now, what we`re interested in is trying to find this man.
And Robi Ludwig, I`ve got to bring you in on this. And, Robi, you know, we talk about a situation like this. My fear is that it doesn`t stop. My fear is that somehow he gets to other women.
And talk to us about this man`s behavior, what this man is like from what you know, and what police should be looking for in order to find him in addition to this video.
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, this is a man who probably has some degree of tech savvy. I`d be very curious to know what his feelings are about this particular sorority, what it means to him, did he feel rejected by women who were in a sorority? He`s clearly angry with black women in a certain age group, so it might be interesting to look at a person`s back story to find out if there`s some type of history that would lead somebody to behave this way.
He certainly has a type here. Having said that, I just want to underscore, you know, a rapist is somebody who is very angry towards women and uses that anger as a way to gain power over them. It is clearly a crime. So just because somebody has a bad history with women in a sorority, that doesn`t turn them into rapists.
But I really agree with the profiler. This man has a type and he is going after the same kind of woman, and if he is somehow using technology to help him track down these women, that might make it easier for police to find him.
SMITH: You know, it will be interesting and we have to hope that police and other folks see that video. We want to keep putting it up. So if you see somebody who looks like this man, contact police.
Ed, I want to end with you very quickly here. Do police - are police fearful that he may now try to go away from the sorority if they do believe there`s some sort of connection there and try to attack others?
LAVANDERA: I think they`re worried about what could happen to other members of this sorority, and that`s why you`re seeing those warnings -
LAVANDERA: -- going out to them for everyone. Basically they`re telling them lay low, don`t advertise that you`re a member or affiliated with this sorority in any - in any kind of way. These attacks, there have been four of them, and all the women, as someone mentioned earlier, the women - these victims do not know each other.
And these attacks have happened all over within the last year or so. So they`ve been spread out. The last one was last week, another one happened back in April. So they`re spread out a little bit. So it`s very possible that this man disappears here for a little while, lets everything kind of die down or maybe comes back. I think, you know, people are - police are very anxious to capture him before anything like that can happen.
SMITH: All right. Ed, Candice, Robi, thank you so much.
And, again, folks, if you see a man looking like the man that you saw in that video, please, please contact your authorities. Hopefully they will catch this man soon. And at least if he is somehow involved, the police can question him. There is that picture right there and take a good look. Because if you see him, call the police. We do not want something like this continuing and our hearts go out to the four victims of his or whoever has done this so far. We hope to bring someone to justice on this.
Now, coming up, a live exclusive with the author of a book which advocates pain as punishment for children. Did this discipline cause the death of two little girls? Keep it right here.
SMITH: Welcome back. I`m Ryan Smith sitting in for Dr. Drew.
Breaking news tonight. Check this out. There are reports that the "Dr. Phil" Show is helping exhume the body of Coronado Mansion Death`s victim Rebecca Zahau.
Now, an attorney for the family tells FOX 5 San Diego that Dr. Phil is not paying to have Rebecca Zahau`s body exhumed, but his producers on the show promise to donate to a fund set up by the Zahau Family.
Now, police maintain that Rebecca hung herself after her millionaire boyfriend, Jonah Shacknai`s 6-year-old son Max was fatally injured while she was babysitting. But her family insists that Rebecca did not take her own life.
Now, we reached out to the "Dr. Phil" Show, they`re not going to confirm or deny these reports. A spokesperson says, quote, "We endorse the family`s effort to search for closure to this terrible tragedy and we will stand with them going forward as they navigate through their grieving process."
Now, the family is going to be meeting with Dr. Phil in November, but let`s talk about this because you see this - and we`ve talked about this case many times. I know you`ve heard it many times on the "Dr. Phil Show." And now, a show getting involved with the exhumation, you have to ask yourself, well, how does this work with the police?
And I want to bring in RadarOnline.com legal editor Jen Heger, also attorney Lauren Lake. And Jen, I`m going to start with you because, here, the police have ruled this a suicide, right? They have closed this case.
JEN HEGER, LEGAL EDITOR, RADARONLINE.COM: They`ve closed the case. Absolutely.
SMITH: So the family clearly believes this isn`t a suicide.
HEGER: The family believes it`s not a suicide, and they have implored the California Attorney General and other officials to reopen the case. The problem is, Anne Bremner never formally sent a letter to the California Attorney General.
You`re getting into all kinds of murky waters now, with having the "Dr. Phil Show" make a donation, reportedly, to the Zahau family fund to have Rebecca`s body exhumed. I`m told that it`s actually been exhumed already and it`s en route to Pennsylvania, where Cyril Wecht is going to be doing an autopsy.
They very well could find something. However, if they do find something that isn`t conclusive with what the San Diego Sheriff`s Department found, how can that ever be admitted into court, into evidence? Because this is a third party, it`s not an interested party in this investigation that has essentially been closed.
This is - this would be tainted evidence, not admissible in any sort of court, ever.
SMITH: You know what? You make a great point. And let`s go back to what police said when they were talking about this case because police say they investigated this case, and they said that they found that this was a suicide. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF BILL GORE, SAN DIEGO COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPARTMENT: Was Rebecca`s death a homicide? Again, the answer is no. It was a suicide.
To reach these conclusions relied in substantial measure upon the physical evidence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: You know, Lauren Lake, let`s talk about that. If they do find something, what happens then?
Because I think Jen makes a great point. You`ve exhumed the body, but you`ve also tampered with the body. And - and, unfortunately, as much as they might want justice, the police are the ones who need to be able to make that call in the investigation, right?
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: Yes. This is really tough, and these are some extraordinary circumstances, and I`m trying to think why in the world would a person have a body of their child, their loved one, exhumed - I mean, unless they truly believed, truly believed there is no way this could be a suicide.
However, here we go exhuming the body and doing all of these examinations. What is going to be compelling enough? What are they going to find that would make the San Diego County Sheriff`s Department reopen this case and then do additional investigation? I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I just don`t see that happening.
So then, all of this - these findings that they`re going to have, as the - the woman said from Radar Online, they`re not going to be admitted into any court of law unless they present something so compelling, which I don`t believe the San Diego County Sheriff`s Department is going to buy it.
I think they have ruled this a suicide, and but for - I mean, something extraordinarily compelling, Ryan, this is pretty - this is pretty - pretty deep stuff. I just don`t see it.
SMITH: You know what? But I feel for the family here.
LAKE: Me, too.
SMITH: And, here`s the thing. I want to play this for you because, you know, this is a family that is desperate for answers. They`re so desperate for help that, you know, we have to ask, you know, what are they willing to do?
So, here`s the thing. They appeared on the DR. DREW SHOW just a little while ago. Rebecca`s sister talked about this search for justice, this search for answers. Take a look at what she told Dr. Drew back in September.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DREW PINSKY, HOST: Did she ever have any strange thinking or strange ideas or anything that could have suddenly spiraled out of control?
MARY ZAHAU, REBECCA`S SISTER (via telephone): Definitely not. You know, I think every one of us have hard times in our lives where we get upset, we`re sad for a few days in our lives, but all of us deal with it differently. And, for Rebecca, it`s her family and her faith. That`s how she deals with it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: And, not only that, here`s another reason, Jen, why I have always wondered about this case. Rebecca Zahau, when they found her, was, allegedly, from what we know, naked, hog tied, but committed suicide.
So she`s got her arms and legs tied, and I have never understood about this case how police believe that is a suicide. I just don`t know how you do that without somebody involved.
HEGER: Absolutely. I have been very vocal, in fact, to the point where the San Diego Sheriff`s Department will not even talk to me now, in pressuring law enforcement to reopen this case.
I feel for this family. They believed that their sister did not commit suicide.
However, I`m concerned with the route that they`re going now, with going on TV, with the "Dr. Phil Show," that this should be done. They - perhaps they should be doing this another way. They should be working with the California Attorney General, with the FBI, doing this behind closed doors, to truly get justice for Rebecca and get the answers. Because as we pointed out, you - you go on TV, you have this autopsy -
HEGER: You know, that`s not going to be admitted.
SMITH: But I - I don`t know how they get answers, and that`s a tough situation for them.
Now, coming up, an attorney for Rebecca Zahau`s family says her body will be exhumed and examined by a famous medical examiner. That`s Cyril Wecht. The question we`re talking about, what could he find?
Keep it right here.
SMITH: Tonight, breaking news. Sources tell us that the "Dr. Phil Show" is helping to exhume the body of Coronado Mansion Death`s victim Rebecca Zahau.
Now, our guest, Jen Heger, just said that the body has already been exhumed, it`s been flown to Pennsylvania. Now, an attorney for the family tells Fox 5 San Diego that Dr. Phil isn`t paying for the exhumation, but - listen to this - the producers on his show have promised to donate to a fund set up by the Zahau family.
Does that sound right to you? Well, you know what? It sounds familiar to me. You know why? Take a look at this video.
Do you remember this interview? Remember this, George and Cindy Anthony, talking to the "Dr. Phil Show," having a conversation with him?
Now, this was the first time the "Dr. Phil Show" - and, as we were talking about this, they - they didn`t really say they were paying for this interview, but, Jen, in order to obtain an exclusive interview with Casey`s parents, George and Cindy, they admit they donated $250,000. It`s a hefty donation, to a fund set up in Caylee`s memory.
And, you know what, we don`t want to criticize the show. Those are, I guess, noble intentions, and we know that George and Cindy are hoping to do a lot of things in Caylee`s memory. But, here`s the thing. Is this part of the MO of the "Dr. Phil Show," and - and when is all this airing?
HEGER: Well this - I`m told the show is going to air, with the Zahau sisters and Anne Bremner, during the coveted, much coveted, November sweeps.
HEGER: Which, you have to wonder if, you know, this is for ratings. Let`s - let`s not be stupid about that. This is being done for ratings, OK? Dr. Phil is doing this for the ratings, plain and simple.
SMITH: You know, I hate to think he`s doing that. I - I would like to think that they are trying to help. Now, this family has - you know, they`re - they`re in a tough situation and he`s just trying to help. But those facts make me think that, yes, it helps the show, too.
HEGER: It helps the show. I mean, we know that the George and Cindy Anthony with Dr. Phil, it was record ratings for him, for his season premier this year. And it is expensive, I`m sure, to exhume Rebecca`s body, to have an autopsy conducted. The family doesn`t have the means to pay for it.
Like I said, you know, I empathize completely with the family. I`m very concerned that they are compromising any future criminal charges that could be filed.
SMITH: And that`s going to be the key.
And, Lauren Lake, then, what can they do? Because I think all of us feel the frustration for the Zahau family, but what are they supposed to do?
The police have closed the investigation. They say it`s a suicide. The Zahaus are begging, please, take another look. They don`t want to do anything. What else are they supposed to do, especially when the "Dr. Phil Show" comes calling and says, look, I`m willing to help you. What else can they do?
LAKE: Well, this family obviously feels like their back`s against the wall, and they`re going to do whatever is necessary to keep the attention on this young woman`s death or so-called suicide, the way it was ruled. And if they have to go on TV and have an autopsy report, and maybe they`re going to - think they`re going to find such compelling results that`s going to shame the - you know, the county sheriff`s office to reopen the case, where this is just so compelling, America is rallying behind them, and they want justice.
We don`t know what they`re thinking. I just know this is a desperate family. You can tell from their actions. And they`re going to do whatever it is they have to do.
Now, if they weren`t going to go that route, Ryan, let`s be honest. Once the county sheriff`s office closed the case, I can`t even - I can`t even describe to you in words how compelling, how extraordinary the evidence has to be to get them to reopen it. That`s just a tough cookie.
SMITH: Yes. It - it is so tough for them, and our hearts go out to them. And I - I say that with a heavy heart, because you know what? I know they`re looking for answers. But many, many think, you know, maybe this isn`t the way. But - but they`re going to go and see what happens on all of this.
Now, coming up, meet the author of a book who says that inflicting pain on children is a way to discipline.
SMITH: Two children dead, two couples held responsible. At the center of it all? A controversial parenting book and a fight over discipline. Is it ever OK to hit your children? The author says absolutely, and he`s here, but buckle up, my other guests really disagree.
And later, Michael Jackson`s doctor on trial. His nurse on the stand. Michael asked her for propofol, too. Ahead, her steadfast refusal. Tearful testimony and dire warning to the King of Pop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH (on-camera): Tonight, we have a live exclusive about a controversial subject that literally goes back hundreds of years. When is it OK to spank your child? Is it corporal punishment the way to go? And you know, this has become a big subject now, because people are wondering, how do I discipline my child?
What do I do to help their growth but also to discipline them and make sure they follow my instructions, and maybe, sometimes, to keep them safe. Now, we`re going to take a look at two couples who took it to the extreme, resulting in the deaths of two little girls who didn`t stand a chance. They were abused and tortured by their parents who claimed to be disciplining their kids.
CNN correspondent, Gary Tuchman, went to Paradise, California to find out what happened to seven-year-old Lydia Schatz. She was beaten numerous times with a quarter inch plastic tubing and ultimately died from her injuries. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The small town of Paradise, California, where these children lived with their parents in a fundamentalist Christian home. For the nine children, life in Paradise was anything but. We cover up eight of their faces because they are the survivors. Survivors of a violent form of discipline practiced by their parents, Kevin and Elizabeth Schatz.
The one face not covered is their seven-year-old adopted daughter, Lydia. She was killed by her parents. Authorities say Kevin and Elizabeth Schatz beat their children regularly because they believe God wanted them to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: You know, one thing both couples had in common is the book you see right here, "To Train up a Child." It advocates whipping and switching children and declares that any spanking effectively -- to effectively reinforce instruction must cause pain. Now, we want to talk about this subject, and we`ve got the author with us. His name is Michael Pearl.
He`s the head of the No Greater Joy Ministries. Michael, thank you for joining us. Pediatrician, Dr. Harvey Karp, is also here. He`s the creator of the happiest toddler on the block DVD, and we thank him as well for joining.
And also, we have on the phone, district attorney, Mike Ramsey, of Butte County, California and CNN correspondent, Gary Tuchman, is also with us who did this piece and went to this. Gary, great to see you as always.
And Gary, talk to us about what these parents were saying about how Michael`s book influenced them in disciplining their children?
TUCHMAN: Well, the parents in both these cases in California and Washington haven`t said very much, but what`s very notable is the district attorney in Butte County, California who you have on your program says he believes this book was a major reason this couple ultimately killed their poor little daughter. And the Washington State case, it just happened, these parents have just been arrested.
Their daughter also died. Right now, the district attorney there is investigating the case and is going to read the book cover to cover, as a matter of fact. They found several books and videotapes from Michael and Debi Pearl in the house. They are not yet saying that the book had something to do with it, although, they`re open to the possibility the book had something to do with it.
What we do know is on the affidavit, the seven brothers and sisters who are the survivors are all likely to testify against the parents and say that because they had these small little infractions, that they were whipped in the name of God.
SMITH: And Gary, let`s back up for a second and talk about these two cases just so all of our viewers get a perspective here. One is the Schatz case, but then the other one is the case involving Hanna Williams. And tell us about the abuse that both inflicted. And you talked about it a little bit in their piece, in the piece that you had, but what is being done?
What`s happening now with parents on both sides? I mean, we have a sense of what happened with the Schatz parents, but the parents for Hanna Williams, what`s happening with them?
TUCHMAN: Well, in California, the Schatz`s has pleaded guilty to the case, and they`re going to both be in prison for a long time. In this case, it`s just beginning in the Washington State case, you have Larry and Carrie Williams who are accused of homicide in the death of the 13-year-old daughter who they adopted from Africa. The judge has ordered -- they`re out on bond.
The judge ordered the parents live apart from each other, because he doesn`t want them discussing legal strategy together, ultimately one may testify against the other. And the children, the seven surviving children are all living in foster homes for two reasons.
One to protect them from the parents, and two, because some or all those children may testify against their parents, and they don`t -- parents are ordered not to be in contact with those kids, because they don`t want the parents to influence or say to the kids you better not testify against us.
SMITH: Michael pearl, you know what, let me just stop for a second. You know, you hear something like this, and you can`t believe this is still going on in our country that children are being beaten and getting killed by their parents in the name of discipline. Now, Michael Pearl, I have to ask you about this.
How do you feel about this book being in the homes underlined, people folding over pages, using your book to do this kind of discipline and ending the lives of two children? What`s your response to that?
MICHAEL PEARL, AUTHOR, "TO TRAIN UP A CHILD": It`s really sad that these kind of things happen. I tell you what, I wish our book was in the home of all abusing parents, because if they paid attention to what we say in the book, if they`d actually listen to what we said, then they would not have abused their children. We`ve got 300,000 people out there right now that have happy, obedient, cheerful children.
About three million people have been exposed to our ministry. And, I receive letters every day from thousands of people, even from the children, who tell me about the blessings that they`ve experienced from their parents reading this material and applying it in their lives. All we teach is traditional child training as has been practiced for 6,000 years.
And we do not advocate beating children. We do not advocate abusing, hurting, or leaving marks on them. We decry that, and that`s the purpose of our ministry, to bring that to an end.
SMITH: But you`re saying you don`t advocate beating children.
PEARL: Absolutely not, no. We tell parents never --
SMITH: Then, Michael, I have to ask you -- Michael, I have to ask you about this. I`m sorry. It says I`m looking at page 56 of your book. It says --
SMITH: It`s about whipping a three-year-old child until they`re broken. I just want to read this. And Michael, look, you can clear this up for me, because this sounds like beating to me. You`re talking about a parent, she then administrates about ten slow, patient licks on his bare legs, meaning a child. He cries in pain.
If he continues to show defiance by jerking around and defending himself or expressing anger, then she will wait for -- wait a moment, and then, again, lecture him and again spank him when it`s obvious he is totally broken. She will hand him a rag and very calmly say, Johnny, clean up your mess.
He should very contritely wipe up the water. And this is, I guess, when a child is spilling water. Michael, that sounds like beating to me.
PEARL: No, it`s not beating at all. In fact, what we advocate is what 230 million Americans believe and practice all the time, which is simply old-fashioned corporal chastisement. Not beating, not punishing, but just gaining their attention through spankings.
These spankings are done with very light instruments, something that cannot bruise the tissue, cannot harm the child in any way, and you know, if it were beating, then, we`d have to say that every president in the United States was beaten, because all of them up until modern times, at least, experienced corporal chastisement, and they practiced it on their own children.
So, what we advocate is traditional. It`s not violent. It`s a big leap to assume that loving, kind, patient administration of spanking is in any way going to be violent or lead to violence.
SMITH: All right. Michael, I want to bring in Mike Ramsey as well. He`s the Butte County D.A. He handled the Lydia Schatz case. And Mike, thank you so much for being here as well. And Mike, as I understand it, you believe that Michael and his book should be held responsible in the deaths of Lydia Schatz?
VOICE OF MIKE RAMSEY, DISTRICT ATTORNEY BUTTE COUNTY, CALIFORNIA: Everyone has the First Amendment right to say awful and destructive things, but I do believe in looking at the Schatz`s underlining and their statements to officers and to probation officers that the Pearl book was certainly very responsible for their method of chastisement if that`s what we want to call it, call it beating.
I believe it is an evil book, and the philosophy is entirely without Christian grace.
SMITH: And Harvey, I want you to jump in real quick. I only have a couple of seconds here, but what do you think about what Michael is saying about this not being beating, about this being corporal punishment that`s been practiced for years. This is the way to discipline.
DR. HARVEY KARP, PEDIATRICIAN: Well, I know it`s been 6,000 years, but you`d think in every other area of our lives, we are learning to do things better. You don`t go down to the river and wash your clothes anymore. You don`t have an outhouse so you don`t sleep on a store mattress. We can learn better ways.
I`m not saying people didn`t do it 6,000 years ago, but that`s no excuse for doing it today. There are better ways to discipline kids. And I believe, and I`ve taken care of thousands and thousands of kids. Nobody would hit their kids if they had simple, effective ways that worked better.
And what we try to do in the parenting field is try to give parents those skills so they don`t have to revert to 6,000-year-old, you know, ways of teaching kids to behave by intimidation instead of by love.
SMITH: All right. We`re going to keep this conversation going. Keep talking about this. Michael, you know what, if I -- I guess I don`t have a second here, but we`re going to come back, and we`re going to keep this conversation going.
But, we`re also going to cover a little bit later in the day the Michael Jackson trial, the defense witnesses on the stand. We`ll go into all of that, because it was a powerful day in court. Keep it right here.
SMITH: Coming up at the top of the hour, Joy Behar`s special guest is legendary entertainer, Bette Midler. Tune in at 10:00 p.m. eastern right here on HLN.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PEARL: Look here, let me show you something. Does that hurt?
TUCHMAN: It doesn`t feel good.
PEARL: Look what it`s doing to your whole body. See the hit? Here`s your hand over to somebody (ph), that`s a carotid --
TUCHMAN: But you`re telling me, though, when you use this material that it can`t cause permanent pain?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It stings the skin.
PEARL: My children never had marks left on them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: Now, welcome back. I`m Ryan Smith sitting in for Dr. Drew. In the past two years, two little girls lost their lives, found beaten and bloodied, if you can believe that. Lydia Schatz, at the hand of her parents. Hannah Williams found outside her home with mud in her mouth.
And the question we`re asking, is more than just are her mom and dad responsible, but it`s also we`ve got a book that we`re talking about, because this book was used as guidance in disciplining each of these children.
I want to bring back in Michael Pearl. I want to also bring in Gary Tuchman, also Dr. Harvey Karp. And Michael, let me talk to you about this. Now, here`s my problem. And again, you have every right to your view here. But, if I hit another person, then I go to jail for assault, I go to jail for battery, I maybe spend years in jail. Why is it OK for parents to hit their kids?
PEARL: We don`t hit our children, we spank them. The bible teaches that we should train up a child in the way it should go, and it says that we should apply the rod when the children are disobedient, and it`s been traditionally practiced by all religions, all cultures, at all time, and is up to this day right now.
Seventy-five percent of all Americans still practice corporal chastisement. In fact, 19 states in the union still have corporal chastisement as legal. In 2008, over 223,000 paddlings or spankings occurred in the public school system. The Supreme Court has ruled that spanking is not cruel or unusual, and, that it`s not harmful.
And so, the concept that spanking is abuse is a strange concept that heretofore has never existed, because I know many loving parents that produced absolutely wonderful children. I just came out of the makeup room, and the woman doing the makeup said that she was spanked as a child and she spanks her children.
In fact, any time you come across wonderful, cheerful, delightful, creative children, you`re going to find parents using traditional methods. When you come across children that are medicated and drugged and out of control, those are the children the parents have ignored, allowed them to run rampant, and have not used traditional child training methods.
SMITH: Michael -- Gary, go ahead. Jump in.
TUCHMAN: You know, I should tell you that Michael and Debi Pearl were very gracious when we visited them at their farm in Tennessee where you saw him hitting me on the leg to demonstrate how you`re supposed to do it. But one thing we talked about with Michael, there`s no question about the bible does talk about not sparing the rod, but it doesn`t talk about inflicting pain.
And it doesn`t talk about when you have an infant, if the infant bites at the breast, to pull the infant`s hair. There are variations in your book, Michael. We talked about this that aren`t really what`s in the bible, and we`ve seen this with some of the other stories we`ve covered, principles of fundamentalist schools that humiliate student in addition to beating them.
And we say why did you humiliate the students, they go, well, that`s a custom, you know? And I say, well, that wasn`t in the bible. Well, that`s a custom. Maybe, I guess, we should humiliate. So, seems like everyone carries it a little farther than the bible, perhaps, intends, right, Michael?
PEARL: No. Everyone does not. And you are not familiar with the bible when you say the bible doesn`t say that chastening inflicts pain. I`m reading right now from Hebrews chapter 12 verse 11. It says, "For no chastening for the present seems to be joy us but grievous, nevertheless, afterward, yield the peaceable fruit of righteousness under then which you exercise thereby."
There are many passages in the bible that speak of the application of what it called the rod, which was spanking to children, and it speaks of it as a grievous, as a painful thing that the children experience, but in the end, it works good for their soul, and that`s testified in my five children, my 19 grandkids, and 500 people I know personally, and then, three million people who we minister to.
TUCHMAN: Michael, I met your --
TUCHMAN: I met your children. They`re wonderful. They`re wonderful people, and there`s no question about it, but I know lots of people, Michael, who don`t hit their children and they have wonderful children, too.
SMITH: And you know what, I`m one of those children. I was one of -- wait, wait, wait. Let me just interrupt here, because Gary brought up something about, and Michael, I understand that you`re reading different passages from the bible and using that as guidance. Here`s the thing, though. When you talk about disciplining babies, and I just want to read an excerpt from your book, Michael, I really do to kind of make sure we`re understanding what we`re talking about here.
You mention in your book one particularly painful experience of nursing mothers is the biting baby. Now, you say my wife did not waste time finding a cure when the baby bit, she pulled hair, an alternative has to be sought for bald headed babies.
Now, Michael, please explain to me how a baby is going to know what that discipline means? Pulling a baby`s hair, Michael, I got to be honest with you, that does sound to me like abuse, because --
PEARL: That`s not discipline.
SMITH: That baby can`t fight back. That baby can say nothing.
PEARL: That`s conditioning. Throughout the animal kingdom, all animals, I have a farm, and whenever the mother cow, whenever the calf is nursing, the mother cow, and he becomes obnoxious or bites, the mother cow --
SMITH: But these aren`t animals, Michael. These aren`t animals. All due respect, Michael, these are not animals. These are children. Go ahead, Harvey.
KARP: We do have to condition kids. We do have to teach -- I agree with you, Michael, that children are not born civilized. We have to socialize them and civilize them, but if a child spits in your face doesn`t mean you spit in their face to teach them not to spit. It`s kind of confusing.
PEARL: Of course not.
KARP: If you hit me, I`m going to hit you back. What does a child learn when we hit them for hitting? Or what is they learn that it`s OK for big people to hit little people? That`s really the easy lesson for them to learn.
I agree with you that we need to have a response, we need to set limits for kids, and so, they`re taught to be respectful and they`re taught to be obedient when they need to be obedient without resulting in someone being injured or being killed.
SMITH: And Michael, I`ll go ahead and let you respond.
PEARL: All nursing mothers get bit from time to time. All our children were nursed. All nursing mothers have some way of dealing with. You have to express to the child that it`s an unpleasant event and that shouldn`t be done, and the way you do that is you pull on his ear, pull on his hair, pull him away from the breast, thump him, you do something to communicate.
KARP: Just to interrupt.
PEARL: The hair is not pulled as an act of violence. The hair is not pulled as an act of violence. It`s pulled gently just enough so that you send a signal to the child, you shouldn`t bite. Mothers have been doing that for thousands of years.
SMITH: All right, guys. Michael, I`m sorry to jump in. Unfortunately, Michael, I got to take a commercial break. Thank you all for joining us --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOICE OF DAVID WALGREN, PROSECUTOR: You told Michael Jackson in response to his request for propofol, quote, "no one who cared or had your best interest at heart is going to give you this."
CHERILYN LEE, NURSE PRACTITIONER: Yes, I did tell him that. Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: All right. Before we get to the Michael Jackson trial, we got cut off a little bit there. I want to thank Gary Tuchman and my other guests for joining me. And by the way, "Ungodly Discipline" airs tonight - - airs at 10:00 p.m. eastern tonight on "Anderson Cooper 360."
Now, let`s turn to the Michael Jackson death trial. The King of Pop`s former nurse, Cherilyn Lee, took the stand today, and she said she had refused or she refused to give Michael Jackson propofol despite his desperate pleas. Now, her testimony turned tearful when prosecutor, David Walgren, recalled the warnings that she gave Michael Jackson about propofol.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALGREN: You indicated to Michael Jackson, I understand you want a good night`s sleep, you want to be, quote, and use, quote, "knocked out," but what if you don`t wake up, correct?
WALGREN: And he responded again, "I will be OK. I only need someone to monitor me with the equipment while I sleep."
LEE: Yes. That`s exactly what he said.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you want a moment, Miss Lee?
LEE: Yes, please.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: Talk about a difficult moment in court. Joining us, criminal defense attorney, Lauren Lake. And Lauren, you know, this was powerful testimony. It was on cross-examination, and it was for the prosecution there, but the defense seemed to try to bring out this idea that Michael Jackson started this addiction in a way to propofol.
What did you make of that, because, you know, you could say on the one hand, maybe it`s insomnia, but on the other hand, they really tried to highlight Michael Jackson`s desperate need for propofol.
LAUREN LAKE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think they managed to get that out, Ryan. I mean, let`s be honest, as a defense attorney, sometimes, you have to do a lot of battle to try to win the war in terms of exonerating your client. Here, this witness was a little hostile. I don`t think she really wanted to be a witness for the defense, and you could tell that. She was also very emotional.
This case has been so scientific that we forget sometimes that Michael Jackson has passed away, that it is an emotional tragedy. And this witness brought this to life, which is really kind of goes against the defense.
But at the end of the day, what they did get out is that this is another medical professional that Michael Jackson approached and asked to give him propofol, give him an intravenous drug to help him sleep, and the defense has got to, in some way, even through hostile witnesses, establish that. That this man had decided I want propofol, and I`m not going to stop until I find someone to give it to me.
SMITH: Now, Lauren, real quick, Janet Jackson was in court today along with Katherine Jackson, Rebbie, La Toya, Randy. What kind of sense, do you think, it gives the jury to have the Jackson family in that courtroom?
LAKE: Powerful. We love that family. They`re iconic. We`ve enjoyed their music. But at the same time, it`s important to understand there`s another side of the coin. The jurors may be looking at that family like OK, you`re all here now, but where were you when all of this was going on with Michael Jackson?
So, in one hand, it plays to the prosecution, but in the other, to the defense. As they look around like we didn`t know that, what`s going on, the jury may be thinking this family was disconnected.
SMITH: All right. Thank you so much, Lauren. Folks, Dr. Drew is going to be back tomorrow.