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Nancy Grace on Baby Lisa, Conrad Murray and His Patients; Nancy Grace Still Dancing with the Stars
Aired October 26, 2011 - 21:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
Tonight, Nancy Grace and the latest on missing Baby Lisa. Her thoughts about Lisa`s parents finally letting officials question their sons. My take on their sudden change of heart and puzzling behavior.
And sadly, it is official. Alcohol poisoning killed Amy Winehouse. I`ll be giving the medical perspective.
And breaking news, a bizarre missing person`s case solved. But was it the outcome everyone hoped for? Let`s get started.
Eleven-month-old Baby Lisa missing for over three weeks, and the Michael Jackson death trial. We are just days away from jury deliberation. Two huge headlines making stories. And I`m joined by one big star, Nancy Grace, who`s here to share her insights into both with us tonight. Watch this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That man sitting there is the best doctor I`ve ever seen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have never had a doctor that was more caring.
RYAN SMITH, HOST, IN SESSION ON TRUTV (on camera): Today was very much about the positive side of Conrad Murray. And patient after patient after patient of his took the stand and extolled all the virtues of the doctor they came to know and love.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve seen emotion from Dr. Murray like we have not seen before, crying on a few occasions. One of the character witnesses has even walked up, shook Murray`s hand, and gave him a kiss on the forehead. What do we see next?
NANCY GRACE, FORMER PROSECUTOR: And tonight, a 10-month-old baby girl sleeping in a crib just a few feet from her own mother goes missing without a trace. Lisa`s mother ends up drinking wine, more than five glasses of wine. She claims she put the child to sleep at 6:40.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police now plan to question her brothers, two young boys who were in the room right next to Baby Lisa`s. Baby Lisa`s brothers just 6 and 8 years old, will sit down with a specially trained investigator.
PINSKY: And tonight, investigators confirm Baby Lisa`s brothers will be interviewed tomorrow. And I`m led to believe they`ll be separated when they are interviewed. They`ll be by themselves. Will the boys, ages 5 and 8, be able to help crack this case?
I suspect, Nancy Grace has an opinion. She is host of her own show here on HLN, and of course, she is also gracing the dance floor on "Dancing with the Stars." Can I tell them what dances you`re working on right now?
PINSKY: The jive and the tango. That`s heavy, to be - I mean, not being a dancer and having to perform at this level, to go from zero to like professional-level dancing -
GRACE: Man, you`re not kidding. And you know, as much as I love my partner, Tristan McManus, he`s not giving me a break. We had it out over one step today in rehearsal. I`m going to let you shrink him later.
PINSKY: I`m bringing him in. I`m bringing him in a couple of blocks and I will, I promise. I`ll get on him for you.
But speaking of dancing, you know, just before we went on the air, somebody - I don`t want to bust your chops too early in the show, because we`ve got a lot of news to go over, but somebody told me a little story. I just want to confirm it here if this in fact is true. That during a Blues Brothers` concert, you and Dan Aykroyd took off on a motorcycle or something. Is that a true story ever?
GRACE: That`s true.
PINSKY: Is that when you were already Nancy Grace at that point or is that something that happened in your youth?
GRACE: I was a prosecutor in Atlanta at the time of the Dan Aykroyd motorcycle incident, and it was purely platonic in every way. I happened to be coming out -
PINSKY: Yes, counselor.
GRACE: -- of the courthouse, as a matter of fact, I was on trial.
PINSKY: This sounds highly suspicious. I know what you at home think, but I think this business about coming out of a courthouse, being picked up by - by Dan Aykroyd accidentally, like I fell on - I fell on the motorcycle and all of a sudden I was riding away -
GRACE: I was just standing there on the street and he said something about, hey, there`s a good-looking blond, you want a ride? And I said sure and I hopped on the back, and that was the end of it.
PINSKY: And you were -
GRACE: We took a little very short ride.
PINSKY: Again, sounds suspicious. But I`m just saying.
And you were big fans of theirs already, right?
GRACE: Yes, huge fan. Yes.
PINSKY: That`s very exciting. That`s a pretty big deal.
OK. Let`s get on with the news now. So Lisa`s brothers. Baby Lisa`s gone. Mom behaving strangely. She wouldn`t allow the police to interview the - I think it`s a 5 and an 8-year-old. Strangely, now, the 8-year-old is the stepson. He is the son of Baby Lisa`s dad. The 5-year-old has a different baby daddy. She wouldn`t allow the police to interrogate either of them. A, why? And B, are they going to be helpful?
GRACE: OK. Number one, you`ve got two boys living in the home the night Baby Lisa goes missing.
GRACE: The 8-year-old belongs to the male live-in. The 5-year-old is mommy`s bio baby.
PINSKY: And by the way, to a man to whom she`s still married.
GRACE: Yes, right.
PINSKY: She`s married to the 5-year-old`s dad.
GRACE: They say they don`t have enough money for a divorce. FYI, you can do it online pretty much these days.
But long story short, when cops first found out Baby Lisa`s missing, they interview one child for 30 minutes, the other child for 50, 5-0, minutes. That`s not enough. And since that time, until the present, mommy and daddy have stonewalled the cops from talking to the children. They say they don`t want the children traumatized.
Mommy also says she said nothing to the children about Baby Lisa missing, and I don`t believe that.
PINSKY: I heard you talking about that on your show, and I completely agree with you. That`s a bizarre idea as a parent. I mean, the first thing you`d be - the kids would be going, where`s Lisa -
PINSKY: -- and you would be dealing with that every day.
GRACE: Dr. Drew, first thing John David says every morning because Lucy always comes and gets in bed with me every night. Where`s Lucy? First thing before he even says good morning, mommy, anything, where`s Lucy?
Same thing with her. These children have been saying where`s Baby Lisa?
PINSKY: Of course they have. It`s just - it`s bizarre to think that they have not. And so, again, that`s more of the bizarre behavior of the mom.
Another piece that I think has been left out of the timelines, I heard this from one of the investigators, that I don`t know whether it`s the 5- year-old or the 8-year-old started in bed with mom and somewhere after midnight went to an upper bunk-bed, like was woken up by something and moved through the house. That kid might have some interesting things to say.
GRACE: Well, they have said from what we understand that they heard odd noises that night.
Another problem I`ve got is that mommy and daddy refuse to talk to cops separately. In order for mommy to talk to cops, she`s got to have daddy there? Why?
PINSKY: That`s weird, right? And the police must think that`s suspicious right from the -
GRACE: I`m sure they do.
PINSKY: -- trying to get this -
GRACE: They are not suspects. But this is not helping move the investigation off them.
GRACE: If they`re not the perp, it`s not getting off the dime and moving on to the real perp.
PINSKY: Also, had you heard that there was a neighbor husband that - the woman that was getting drunk with Baby Lisa`s mom, which by the way, that whole business of them drinking to the point of blacking out is very disturbing, right? I mean, whether she`s a suspect or not, I mean, these are adults in charge of the care of children who don`t remember what they did the night they were the one supervising these kids.
But be that as it may, there was a neighbor husband who apparently I`ve heard was not allowed to come back home that night and he - I`d heard by one of the investigators had maybe had some - laid some blame at the feet of perhaps Baby Lisa`s parents. Did you hear this?
GRACE: Yes. I`ve heard that, too. But I haven`t been able to confirm it separately.
PINSKY: Neither have I. Neither have I.
GRACE: I spoke to the woman that observed a male around 12:30 A.M. walking in the neighborhood with a baby. She sounded very sure in what she saw. That adds another wrinkle to the story.
PINSKY: I saw that interview, too. And she really did seem smart and capable and sane and clear about what she had seen.
Now, Shawn Bradley is Deborah Bradley`s estranged husband and the father of the 5-year-old, as Nancy and I have been saying. He reportedly has not seen Deborah or his son in two years. A reporter recently asked him about both, and here`s what he said. Quote, "She has always been a good mom. I`m still confused by what`s going on. This is craziness to me. I`m concerned about my son and I want to make sure he`s safe. I miss him and would love to have him back." Again, that`s the husband that she`s actually still married to.
You know, and I spoke to - I don`t know if you had a chance to do this, too, to Baby Lisa`s mom, Deborah`s like an uncle or something who sort of surfaced. And he was very concerned about overall this family, Lisa`s - no, Deborah`s family having had a lot of addiction and trauma and all kinds of stuff.
In fact, I think do we actually have the quote in the control room from a friend about Deborah being sort of manipulative? Can you get me that quote up there? You guys can`t do it? Let`s put it to the sound bite. Let`s pull that up, then, if you can possibly do it. It`s a friend of hers saying - here it is. Keep reading - we`ll get past that. OK.
Here`s her mother`s former friend. She came forward with this not so flattering comment about Deborah. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHIRLEY PFAFF, DEBORAH BRADLEY`S FORMER FRIEND: She does have a good heart. But then there`s just that other side of her that`s a totally different person you don`t want to be around.
I don`t believe her. I just don`t believe her. Because I know she can turn her cry on like that. I know she is a good con artist. A very good con artist.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, again, stories of when she`s drinking becomes - if she`s an alcoholic I don`t know but -
GRACE: For one thing, Dr. Drew, I wouldn`t put anybody, especially in-laws, up on the stand because, oh, it`s just like two wet cats in a barrel.
GRACE: You`re going to get all these distant relatives and the sister, oh, she didn`t - she gave me - she re-gifted me at Christmas. I hate her. She`s manipulative.
Yes, I don`t care about that. All I care about is the evidence. I don`t care what - whose cousin, sister said what. Doesn`t matter to me.
PINSKY: So what do we need to move the story forward? What are we looking for?
GRACE: Number one, I need mommy to man up and talk to cops without daddy holding her hand. And I`ve got a problem that she hasn`t already done it.
Now, I`ve also got a problem with mommy saying I was blacked out drunk and mommy saying I flunked a polygraph on the question, do you know where Baby Lisa is? That`s a problem to me. But I can`t ignore that somebody in the neighborhood saw a man walking with a baby that night. Also, we`ve got a cadaver dog hitting on carpet in mommy`s room.
GRACE: Problem, Dr. Drew. Problem.
PINSKY: It`s a very interesting story. And mom -
GRACE: It`s not a story.
PINSKY: I mean, I beg your pardon -
GRACE: It`s a baby.
PINSKY: Thank you. I agree.
PINSKY: Listen, I agree with you. Listen, I know better than to cross swords with Nancy Grace.
So, but the fact is it`s interesting to try to put this together. There is a baby at the center of it. I completely agree with you. It`s - none of this is OK that there`s been such feet dragging. It`s not OK. I completely agree with you.
All right. Next, a parade of Conrad Murray`s former patients - I`m kind of shook up. Nancy kind of got me - the way she looked at me made me a little scared for a second. Now, I really do want to talk to your dancing partner to see what happens when the doors are shut.
Nancy and I will tackle the latest from the courtroom. Please stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DENNIS HIX, CONRAD MURRAY`S FORMER PATIENT: Well, I`m 66. I`ve gone to a lot of doctors. A lot of doctors. And I`ve never had one who gave me the care that he did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED CHERNOFF, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Do you think Dr. Murray`s greedy?
RUBY MOSLEY, CONRAD MURRAY`S FORMER PATIENT: Do I think?
CHERNOFF: Yes, ma`am.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Dr. Murray not greedy. That`s the opinion of Ruby Mosley, one of Conrad Murray`s former patients. He - or rather she was one of five character witnesses who took the stand today in Dr. Murray`s defense.
I`m back with my very special guest. She is HLN`s very own Nancy Grace. And I want to remind everybody to support her on "Dancing with the Stars." We`d love to take that crazy mirror ball and set it right here on the desk and put Nancy`s name on it. The number to support her is 800-868- 3405, 800-868-3405.
And I actually just got a little sample of her new dancing prowess. She was so proud of herself for having busted my chops the last segment. She actually broke into a dance right here. You all saw it. She broke into a dance right here.
OK. All right. So, anyway. Yes, I got the message. There`s a baby at the center of that last story.
All right. Dr. Murray not a greedy man, so they say. And yet the promoters and I guess Michael himself was paying $150,000 a month.
GRACE: Well, Miss Ruby Mosley probably doesn`t know that he`s greedy because she didn`t have to pay him $150,000 a month -
PINSKY: It`s incredible.
GRACE: -- for his services.
I`d also like to - I would have cross-examined every one of these. I would not have let them off the hook as easily as they got off the hook.
For instance, when did you see him last? Do you have insurance? I bet that paid his bill, didn`t it, Miss Mosley? I mean, I hate to be mean to an old lady, but I would have to get to the truth.
And this is a very fatal flaw, because the state cannot introduce bad character on anybody unless and until the defense first opens the door. They`ve done that. So if the state has any bad character or bad acts that they could bring in earlier, they can now.
PINSKY: You think they will?
GRACE: Boy, I hope they do, if they`ve got any. There may not be any bad acts.
PINSKY: Yes. You know, here`s the thing --
GRACE: I find that kind of hard to believe, though.
PINSKY: Well, I can believe that he was a really good cardiologist. The - the problem that I -
PINSKY: I can believe that.
GRACE: A cardiologist?
PINSKY: No, really, Nancy -
GRACE: You know, my father`s a heart patient, and I don`t believe I would put him under the care of anybody that left the room to yak to his mistress on the phone.
PINSKY: I didn`t say he should. I - I think the fact that he assumed primary care was where he started down the road to trouble. He`s not a primary care guy.
If you noticed, if you read this - back this (ph) interrogation - which, by the way, this - this is the interrogation that - yes. You`ve seen this -
GRACE: Can you call on me, please?
GRACE: I have to raise my hand in dance practice (ph) to speak.
A primary care doctor.
GRACE: You know, no doctor - I don`t care what they are, a neurosurgeon, anesthesiologist, podiatrist, I don`t care. Who dumps somebody full of propofol at home?
PINSKY: Somebody who doesn`t - oh, that`s craziness. That`s craziness. I mean, the fact that he allowed that to happen - look, he not only allowed that to happen, he had other doctors prescribing. He never called those doctors to find out what they were doing.
He literally, in this interrogation, goes, well, that was Michael`s business. He - he`s just wanted to keep that private. Keep other doctor participating - and you`re the primary care guy? That`s the thing.
GRACE: I mean, when you look at Jackson`s body.
GRACE: It`s covered in track marks.
GRACE: He had to shoot Jackson up in the knee, for a reason. He probably couldn`t get a vein anywhere else.
PINSKY: He`s explicit in here in that he had no veins left anywhere in his body because doctors had done the equivalent of what junkies do to themselves. That means thousands, maybe tens of thousands of IV injections.
Look how many veins are on my hand, Nancy. They clotted every vein, all the way up to the armpit, neck, legs, and down. They had to get him behind the knee. It`s like that`s what junkies do to themselves, and -
GRACE: And if they can -
PINSKY: -- and my peers did that to a - a superstar.
GRACE: Dr. Drew, in addition to bringing on these character - good character witnesses, one of them actually bent over and kissed Conrad Murray on the head.
GRACE: Now, right there, I would have demanded some type of recourse against the lawyers, the defense lawyers for allowing that to happen. No kissing in the courtroom, Drew. No.
PINSKY: Yes. Well, that`s good.
GRACE: It`s ridiculous.
PINSKY: Will you please go back to practicing law, Nancy, so I can hire you if I ever get in any trouble? But - I have friends that might need you, for that - for that matter.
But - but is the - do we have the - the throw-in here about him calling his patients his friends? There`s somewhere in this whole line-up, if you guys in the control room could help us. All right, here it is.
So they had lots of good things to say about him, right? Here`s what one patient had to say. Watch this. I want to talk about it afterwards.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After your heart attack, after your - your stents were put in, did you develop a friendship with Dr. Murray?
GERRY CAUSEY, CONRAD MURRAY`S FORMER PATIENT: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`ve had other doctors in the past, have you not?
CAUSEY: I have.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you`ve - you`ve developed friendships with them as well?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why Dr. Murray?
CAUSEY: It`s because of Dr. Murray. His - the way he cares for you and the way he makes you feel, and the concern and the love for you - he has for you. He`s my best friend.
PINSKY: He`s my - he`s my best friend? Is that what he said? That`s -
GRACE: Well, (INAUDIBLE) friend. Sorry.
PINSKY: No, but listen. But you got to - but Nancy, listen -
GRACE: I`m telling it like it is.
PINSKY: I - I get you on that, but listen. As a physician, there`s a vast divide between being friendly and being a friend. A friendship is a two-way relationship. Physician is about doing what`s best for the patients in all situations. You can be very friendly, but you`re not their friend.
And particularly when there are mental health issues and addiction, if you befriend the patient, that`s considered completely out of line. Completely. I mean, there are - you go to any psychiatric hospital in the country, and there are explicit rules about that. You can`t even break bread with a patient outside the hospital.
GRACE: You know, I`m not as worried about him friending his patients as he is killing his patients. That`s -
PINSKY: I understand.
GRACE: I`m kind of stuck on the whole dead body thing.
PINSKY: I understand, and, of course, your - the legal part of it is - is your area of expertise. But mine is -
GRACE: I wonder if that`s what Jackson thought too. I wonder if Jackson thought Conrad Murray was his good friend.
PINSKY: Of course he did. And that`s how this all got completely manipulated, and Murray thought he was his friend. "I loved him." Not his friend. He`s his doctor, and - and, as a doctor, you`ve got to tell your patient things they don`t want to hear sometimes.
GRACE: Friends call 911, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Friends call 911. Friends think of them - physicians think of the patient first. Friends hopefully think of their friends first, but physicians always think of their patients first.
I think Dr. Murray was thinking about his own hide.
GRACE: Look, I`ve - I`ve had propofol once before.
PINSKY: For what?
GRACE: And - for a surgery.
PINSKY: For a colonoscopy or something? Yes.
GRACE: No. I had actual surgery. And -
PINSKY: Yes. It knocks you down.
GRACE: Immediately. I remember they said, "Where do you want to be?" and I went, "Home," and that`s the last - and the next thing I remember, I was awake.
PINSKY: I have -
GRACE: And -
PINSKY: I had Midazolam and I had - Midazolam, half the dose that he got that night. He also got Ativan, at twice the dose we normally use to bring down a full - full size man. And there`s just that Midazolam with me, I was done for 36 hours.
I was - it was for a colonoscopy. I was screwed up the whole weekend. But, enough. Enough with these important issues -
GRACE: You and your colonoscopy. I don`t know how that got into the Jackson trial, but whatever.
PINSKY: "Dancing with the Stars," Nancy, you`d prefer I talk about this. Her partner is going to join us with maybe some of the inside info, what`s going on, and some gossip about the real, the dancing Nancy Grace. After this.
PINSKY: All right. Of course I`m here with the great Nancy Grace, and if you would please vote for her and her partner, Tristan MacManus, the phone number is 800-868-3405. As I said, I want to support them, and I want to bring that crazy disco ball home where it belongs to, here at HLN.
But Tristan, I`m dying to talk to you. Let`s - let`s pretend Nancy`s not here for a couple of minutes.
GRACE: I`m here.
PINSKY: And - and you see, I know that`s a - that`s a somewhat difficult thing to do. She can get a little tough. Is she tough on you?
TRISTAN MACMANUS, PROFESSIONAL DANCER, DANCING WITH THE STARS: Yes, but not as tough as I am on her.
MACMANUS: Yes. But, I mean, that`s - we`re working together. We - we have a nice balance. We`ve found a nice balance.
PINSKY: Do you go home and -
GRACE: I have no input whatsoever. That`s the balance.
MACMANUS: So that`s the balance.
GRACE: That`s a nice balance.
PINSKY: So he`s the - he`s the taskmaster. Are - are there surprises you learned about Nancy Grace? Is she different than what you expected from her - you know, her deliberate attitude on television?
MACMANUS: Well, again, that`s - that`s something that I wasn`t aware of before the show started.
PINSKY: So you didn`t know her?
MACMANUS: No. It`s been - she`s certainly been changing as the weeks have been going on. And -
MACMANUS: I guess I`m surprised -
MACMANUS: I guess I`m surprised -
PINSKY: Did you -
PINSKY: Hang on a second, Tristan. Have you developed a Stockholm syndrome, where you actually start to like this guy because he`s - he`s beating you up with -
PINSKY: POW? So she has the Stockholm syndrome going on, Tristan, where she actually likes you now in spite of all the abuse.
GRACE: I didn`t say that.
MACMANUS: She didn`t say that one. Yes.
PINSKY: Well, you know, she`s - she`s -
PINSKY: She doesn`t (ph) actually like you. How far will she go to win?
MACMANUS: Well, she has to go to the end to win.
GRACE: We don`t really think about it (INAUDIBLE). We just try to get through our next step.
MACMANUS: We have this thing where we - we kind of - we try to make all of our dances feel as though they`re going to be our last one, and we`ll enjoy it as if it`s a final. And then -
PINSKY: I mean, you guys are really getting into the - the tougher part of the competition.
MACMANUS: Sure, yes.
MACMANUS: Well, I mean, it`s always - it`s always tough for someone who`s coming into something that they haven`t done before.
PINSKY: Well, that`s the conceit of the show, which is you - these are people that don`t dance for a living and all of a sudden you`ve got to have a professional level, with the world watching.
And listen - listen to this piece of data. "Dancing with the Stars" got more viewers than Game Five of the World Series on Monday.
Nancy, do you have any explanation for the popularity of the show, now that you`ve been sort of inside it?
GRACE: It may have had something to do with our head span.
MACMANUS: You know you do, right (ph)?
PINSKY: That`s it. That`d - that`s beat up two holes in the World Series?
GRACE: I thought I did the hard part. He said you`re trying to catch your feet, Nancy? I`m like, no.
PINSKY: Is - is it been fun, Nancy? Is it been - because it`s - it`s a part of you that we`re not accustomed to seeing. I think it`s very endearing. And has it - was it scary to sort of show - open yourself up like that on such a popular -
GRACE: No, what`s scary is when that music starts and I go blank every single time. What`s with that?
MACMANUS: I don`t know. I - you can - only you can answer that one.
PINSKY: No, no, I can. One of the things that happens is when you get anxious is you - you block. So you`re blocking. And so you -
GRACE: Now, I don`t remember any of that that you`re playing right now.
PINSKY: You don`t - you can`t even remember that, huh?
PINSKY: That`s interesting. Look - look at that. Look how great it looks.
And you guys are working on -
GRACE: No, actually, he looks great.
GRACE: He`s the one that got the nine. I dragged in the 7.
PINSKY: No, Nancy, really.
PINSKY: And did you feel like you`ve improved?
GRACE: What do you think?
MACMANUS: Of course she`s improved. It improves all the time.
PINSKY: I - I see it, you see it, but are you - are you - you, Nancy, aware of how much you improved?
GRACE: No, I - I don`t think so. It`s just constant repetition and drilling from Hitler here that drags me through every week.
PINSKY: When this is over, are you going to stay in touch with Tristan, or are you going to be just running the other way -
GRACE: I don`t know. It depends on how that last dance goes.
PINSKY: Are you going to - are going to - are you going to refer him for some prosecution for having broken some law?
MACMANUS: (INAUDIBLE) or something.
PINSKY: All right, guys, thank you. Nancy, thank you so much for joining me.
GRACE: Thank you.
PINSKY: It`s a pleasure, as always. Good luck.
Tristan, good luck to you. It`s 800-868-3405 is that number. Now hopefully we`ll be able to put it up there on the screen.
There it is. It`s up there now.
GRACE: Three-four-oh-five, people.
PINSKY: Three-four-oh-five with Nancy. We want to bring -
GRACE: Repeat dial.
PINSKY: -- bring the mirrored ball home.
All right now, breaking news. We have a - a case we`re covering, a 15-year-old girl experimenting with hard drugs who vanished into thin air. Shocking twist tonight. You`ll not believe what`s happened. Stay with -
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): A deadly drug, a fling with an older man, and a flight to Mexico. It sounds like we have good news in the case of this runaway, but why did she do it? I`ve been working with teens for years, and I have some answers. This happy ending is just the beginning of the therapeutic work.
And later, one final note in the sad song of Amy Winehouse. Killed by blood alcohol levels five times the legal limit. I`m laying out the report and the physician`s view of the disease of alcoholism.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): Terrific breaking news tonight. We rarely see this kind of positive outcome. A missing teen found in Mexico has been reunited with her mother in the U.S. Now, we reported this story a couple of days ago. A 15-year-old Alyssa Wheeler went missing four months ago. She, at the time she left, was getting addicted to meth and doing other drugs and hanging out with older guys.
Last week, she Facebooked her mom from Mexico saying, mom, I`m alive, I`m with an older man, and I`m pregnant. And by the way, pregnant with a different older man than the one she apparently left the country with. Crazy stuff. And tonight, thank God, she has apparently safely landed in the U.S. Take a look at this brand new video. You`re seeing it here for the first time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Alisa`s home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. Obviously, that turned out pretty well. Mom hysterical. Understandably so. Now, although, mom has been somewhat strangely cavalier about this whole thing, just having the child back is not going to be enough. She has to get into treatment if you want to save her and her baby.
This kid has history of addiction and that is abusive to the baby. It`s dangerous to the mom, dangerous to the pregnancy. Straight to my guest, Lisa Bloom, attorney and author of the book "Think." She has been hiking in Nepal. Lisa, so glad to have you back.
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: Thank you.
PINSKY: You`ve been sorely missed.
PINSKY: And reporter with KERO, Chris Ornelas. Chris, a lot of holes in this story. What`s the latest information that you have?
CHRIS ORNELAS, REPORTER, KERO: Well, this part about her coming home is really all kind of cloak and dagger. The publicly law enforcement here isn`t saying a whole lot about the situation, but for the last few days, my sources had been telling me that she may be getting closer and closer to getting home.
I`m now finding out that, in fact, what happened is Alisa made her own way somehow to the U.S. embassy in Mexico City, and from there, the federal authorities, U.S. federal authorities, likely the FBI, flew her home here to Bakersfield. She arrived here about 11 o`clock local time last night.
And of course, as you saw, was greeted by her mom, and then, of course, they went off to home to try to heal these wounds.
PINSKY: Chris, do we know anything more about these men, either the one that she allegedly left with or the one that supposedly is the baby daddy?
ORNELAS: We don`t know a whole lot about them. Law enforcement is telling us that neither one has actually committed any sort of a crime. The one that she left with didn`t commit a crime because she left of her own freewill and went with him. The gentleman she married down in Mexico, because she`s 15, that`s the legal age in Mexico, and so, he didn`t do anything wrong.
That`s a perfectly legal marriage by Mexican terms. Even the pregnancy, not anything illegal there. We know that the man that she married or she says she married, he is 23 years old and his name is Chino. We believe he`s from the Veracruz area of Mexico. but that`s really about all we know at this point.
PINSKY: Now, Alisa`s mom said she wanted her daughter to come home so badly she was even willing to help this 23-year-old guy we`ve been talking about who apparently impregnated with the 15-year-old to come with her. Chris, did she make that kind of an offer again? Is that guy likely to come up here? Do we know anything about anything more about where this is going from here?
ORNELAS: Yes. You know, it`s kind of interesting. Just as soon as we heard that Alisa might be able to make it home safely alone without that man, Chino, suddenly, there was no more talk of that offer from the mom, and I haven`t heard any more offers from her. I haven`t heard her bring it up again about her trying to bring the man home.
But, of course, as you know, if they`re going to be a family, if they`re going to heal going forward, he probably should be in the picture on some level if he is, in fact, the father of this child.
PINSKY: Lisa, it`s hard for me to believe that no laws have been broken here. I mean, first of all, a 23-year-old guy taking a 15-year-old out of the country. Isn`t that already a problem by itself? And by the way, a 15-year-old can`t consent to much of anything, right?
Well, that`s right. Now, this --
PINSKY: How could she consent to leave the country to be taken across even state lines?
BLOOM: If this had all happened in the U.S., it would clearly be statutory rape. A 23-year-old having sex with a 15-year-old is statutory rape, almost everywhere in the U.S. Although, curiously, in many states, that`s cured by a marriage. I mean, isn`t that odd?
BLOOM: So, if a 23-year-old has sex with a 15-year-old, that`s a crime. They get married, all of a sudden, it`s a complete defense, which is a very odd thing to me. Now, this happened in Mexico. Apparently, according to Mexico law, this is not a problem, but you`re right. Taking her out of the state --
PINSKY: Out of the country.
BLOOM: Taking her out of the country. Did she consent? Did she not --
PINSKY: But how does a 15-year-old --
BLOOM: It`s murky.
PINSKY: But how can a 15-year-old consent to being taken out of the country?
BLOOM: Well, she can consent to going somewhere with someone, OK? That`s not the same thing as sex. Sexually, she cannot consent to having sex with a 23-year-old.
PINSKY: No, I understand that.
BLOOM: But she did give consent to leave. It`s not kidnapping if it`s not done by force in most places.
PINSKY: When our kids were teenagers, if we wanted to leave the country and put them on a plane --
BLOOM: You have to sign a note. Yes.
PINSKY: Yes. You`d have to have passports and --
PINSKY: Well, I`m assuming she probably went by vehicle or something, so it wasn`t that kind of thing, but the point is there are structures in place to make sure that kids don`t move because they can`t consent. They`re not of age.
BLOOM: We need more facts. We need to know did she consent, did she fight it, did she lie to him. I mean, we need more facts. I will say this about Alisa. Good for her for going to the U.S. embassy. And this is something that a lot of people don`t know. When you`re traveling internationally and you have a problem and you`re an American citizen, that`s exactly what you should do.
BLOOM: Go to the U.S. embassy, and they will help you. And that`s what she did. At 15 years old, so good for her. You know, one of the things I love about you, Dr. Drew, and your show is that you have so much compassion for people. I think it`s important for us to have compassion for this young girl.
PINSKY: Oh, absolutely.
BLOOM: I mean, she`s clearly a troubled girl, right?
BLOOM: She`s had a lot of issues in her life.
BLOOM: Now, she`s back. And I also take my hat off to her mom. As a mom, it really resonates with me when her mom says, I would even pay for him to come back with her if I can just get her home. Wouldn`t you say that about your kids, too, if they`re missing for four months and they`re God knows where.
Yes. OK. They`re marries. I don`t care. I`ll pay for him. Just please, honey, come home. Let me bring you home. That shows me a mom who really loves her daughter.
PINSKY: Wouldn`t you, though, be inclined to get on a plane to get down to yourself?
BLOOM: Yes, but she came --
BLOOM: For sure, I`d be on that plane.
PINSKY: Here`s the other for sure part is that this girl needs treatment. And one of the sad things that parents often, do and this is for people at home to think about is say to themselves, oh, those bad men that persuaded my daughter to do something, or now, everything`s fine and everything needs to sort of go back to normal. This is a girl who had signs of very, very, very serious psychiatric problems.
BLOOM: Right, because of the alleged drug use. And one adult man and then a second adult man and within a short period of time she`s married and pregnant at 15.
PINSKY: Very serious. And so, if we don`t see that child going to treatment, I don`t have the same compassionate feelings toward mom anymore. Now, I`m angry.
BLOOM: Well, let`s give them time and let`s hope for the best. They`ve both been through a horrific ordeal. And sometimes, good parents have kids who are troubled. Right? It`s not always the parents` fault. Is it? I mean, you tell me.
PINSKY: No, no, no. You`re absolutely correct. But my point simply is that -- this is for everybody out there. Please, when kids are behaving in ways that are dangerous and problematic, don`t blame the school, don`t blame the peers. Take a look at that kid and get them help.
There`s a huge opportunity out there to get help. It`s tough. It`s cumbersome sometimes if you don`t have resources, but there are things available.
BLOOM: I mean, maybe, we don`t need to blame at all. I mean, there`s a radical idea.
PINSKY: When you blame, you create another victim. So, I`m not talking about blaming. Unless people don`t step up and do what they need to do, then it`s a little frustrating.
BLOOM: Yes. And this is a 15-year-old. She`s a child. In the eyes of the law and everybody`s eyes, she`s a child.
PINSKY: We`ve got to think more about adolescents being children. That`s absolutely correct. So, Lisa, thank you. So great to have you back. I hope the studio compares favorably with Nepal or wherever you were in the Himalayas. I hope I`m not outing you.
BLOOM: Way up in the Himalayas. It was amazing.
PINSKY: Up next a ruling in the death of Amy Winehouse. I`ve got a ton to say about this and so does my panel, so stay with us.
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PINSKY: That was the incomparable Amy Winehouse singing "Body and Soul" with Tony Bennett. Now, today, we got more tragic news about Amy Winehouse`s death. A coroner`s report has concluded that Amy Winehouse died as a result of alcohol poisoning. I`ll get into what that is in a minute. They say that she had more than five times the legal driving limit of alcohol in her body when she passed away on July 23rd.
Coroner Suzanne Greenway called it, quote, "death by misadventure," and she said that Amy had consumed such an excessive amount of alcohol that, quote again, "the unintended consequence of such potentially fatal levels was her sudden and unexpected death."
Here with me to talk about this is Bob Forrest from vh-1`s "Celebrity Rehab" and "Sober House." He, himself, is a recovering addict. Mike Catherwood, also recovering addict, the co-host or my co-host on "Loveline," and Jennifer Jimenez, she is the house manager on - "Sober House," and she, herself, too is recovering. Jennifer, were you surprised by this report?
JENNIFER JIMENEZ, HOUSE MANAGER, VH-1S SOBER HOUSE: You know, I`ll be honest with you, no, I wasn`t surprised. You know, it`s a sad loss, but it happens. You know, I mean, --
PINSKY: Anybody surprised? Anybody surprised?
MIKE CATHERWOOD, "PSYCHO MIKE" CO-HOST, LOVELINE: I`m very surprised.
CATHERWOOD: Well, because like we talk about a lot on "Loveline" every night, Dr. Drew, most deaths that you see come about from --
CATHERWOOD: You know, from partying, it`s at least some combination of pills.
PINSKY: Well --
BOB FORREST, VH-1S CELEBRITY REHAB & SOBER HOUSE: We don`t know that it`s not.
PINSKY: Yes. I suspect it is, because -- in a minute, I`m going to show some tape of the dad talking about her using Librium. Here`s what happened with alcohol. You can take enough alcohol to stop yourself from breathing. You can. But you have to take a lot. It`s very difficult to do that. Usually, before that happens, people vomit and aspirate, and then, die of a pneumonia or not breathing because the vomit clogs everything up.
CATHERWOOD: It should be said --
PINSKY: That`s not what happened here.
CATHERWOOD: I think a lot of people underestimate the dangers of alcohol.
CATHERWOOD: Because it is readily available.
PINSKY: Absolutely. But you combine alcohol with something like Librium or Ativan or the things Michael Jackson was on. Librium is something that Amy`s dad apparently -- let me get into this. The family, of course, reacted to the statement. Amy`s dad threw out a bit of evidence unknowingly. Watch this.
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ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: She wanted to correct something you had said earlier that there was a prescription drug that she was using.
MITCH WINEHOUSE, AMY WINEHOUSE`S DAD: Yes, which I`d forgotten. She was prescribed Librium, which is -- which is a normal drug that is given to people who are detoxing. And it kind of decreases the chances of having seizures. And she was continuing to take one of those pills every day.
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PINSKY: OK. Continuing to take a detox medication which should generally be used for about five days, upper limits ten. You`re staying on that drug, now it`s an addictive drug. These are highly addictive drugs. And when combined with alcohol, stop breathing. Bob, you agree?
FORREST: Well, it reminded me of the patient we had and you remember possibly. We had an acute alcoholic who had late stage liver disease. He was given Librium. He liked the feeling of Librium, became a Librium addict, came back to us to Detox off Librium.
PINSKY: Of course. And the Librium continues to motivate the addictive disease. They`re still in there disease, and of course, return to their illicit drugs. Mike, you`re looking kind of interested --
CATHERWOOD: I`m just confused because Librium is something I was given when I was --
PINSKY: It`s given for withdrawal. Alcohol withdrawal can kill you. That`s what people thought Amy died of, alcohol withdrawal. No, she died of intoxication. So, they appropriately gave her Librium. It nicely suppresses alcohol withdrawal, reduces the death, the fatality, the seizures, the complications, and then you`re off.
CATHERWOOD: But I don`t understand where someone would even get their hands on Librium after --
PINSKY: How do all my patients (inaudible) prescription drug use. Doctors are giving it to them then thinking that she`s so much better now. She feels so much better.
FORREST: There`s one rule. I thought -- I thought one rule doctors should have if they don`t want -- if they want to say I don`t know anything about addiction, don`t put the drugs in the hands of the addict. So, do you understand?
PINSKY: Yes, I understand.
FORREST: And the idea that somebody who is, you know, now binged drinking again after a period of abstinence continues to take the Librium and drink is insane to a doctor makes perfect sense to me.
PINSKY: Right. Of course.
FORREST: Makes perfect sense to you.
JIMENEZ: And me. I mean, who allows -- what doctor allows somebody to detox by themselves?
PINSKY: No, she wasn`t detoxing by herself. She just liked how she felt on the Librium and said doctor, I feel so much better, continue this. Listen, I understand -- before I understood addiction, I was a doctor that didn`t understand addiction. And I remember patients coming and going, you`re the best doctor in the world.
I feel so much better now. If only somebody had given me the Xanax beforehand, I would have -- or this Adderall because now I can focus more, whatever it is, and if you really don`t understand addiction and somebody comes in and comes up on time and pays their bills and makes a follow-up appointment and is really grateful and you don`t understand addiction, you feel like you`re really doing a great job as a doctor.
But that`s how addicts get the drugs from the doctors. And then, everyone blames the addicts afterwards.
CATHERWOOD: Is anybody at all surprised at how little people know, because you all work in the addiction field professionally. I`m the only one up here who doesn`t. I`m always kind of surprised at how little people overall know about addiction, especially in the field of addiction and recovery.
PINSKY: How about in medicine just generally? And really, the problem -- the real problem is that it`s the problem of our time. It is the thing that kills young people. It`s what`s second only to accidents now or something. And --
FORREST: Surpassing car accidents.
PINSKY: Surpassing car accidents. So, across the board -- a lot of things go down as not addicted related deaths that were. Accidents. Most of them were addicts anyway, let`s face it. It really is the problem of our time right now. So, it`s time that we all come to terms with this. Underlying all of it, of course, is a lack of willingness to look at mental health issues, I think.
I think there`s just that general lack. And the fact that people think addiction is just sort of a choice or using drugs is just -- for instance, a term I`d like to see taken out of our vocabulary, recreational drug use. That`s a term I`d like to see -- Mike, you were a recreational drug user.
CATHERWOOD: Oh, yes. I was a very successful recreational drug user. And, you know, now I`m enjoying being a recreational person of recovery. But also, as you bring -- as we saw Amy Winehouse`s family, and they`ve been kind of very open and involved in the media -
PINSKY: But open but here`s -- here`s another reaction of theirs. This is their reaction to this news of her having died of alcohol. This is a quote from them. And again, they`re open, but they`re exposing -- she was treated multiple times. Why didn`t they embrace what the professionals were telling her?
That`s what frustrates me. Here`s what they said, "we understand there was alcohol in her system when she passed away. It is likely a build-up of alcohol in her system over a number of days." I`m going to stop right there and say --
FORREST: There`s no way that`s possible.
PINSKY: There`s no way that`s possible. That`s not true, because had that been the case, she wouldn`t have died. It`s a sudden acute severe intense massive ingestion of alcohol that makes people stop breathing. The court heard that Amy was battling hard to conquer her problems with alcohol, and it`s a source of great pain that she could not win in time.
"She had started drinking again that week after a period of abstinence." All that is probably true and also very, very sad. They, of course, were interviewed as we saw a minute ago on Anderson Cooper`s show, "Anderson" last month, and they had this to say about Amy`s death.
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WINEHOUSE: I wasn`t in denial. She hadn`t taken drugs. She`d been clean of drugs --
COOPER: For three years.
WINEHOUSE: For three years. Roundabout three years.
COOPER: So, the problem was really alcohol in the last years of her life?
WINEHOUSE: The problem was alcohol the last few years of her life. And you might argue, well, what`s the difference? The difference is that what happened to Amy wasn`t anything to do with drugs. It might be that drugs took a toll in the early years but --
COOPER: What about prescription medication?
WINEHOUSE: There were no drugs in her system at all.
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PINSKY: But let`s look at how distorted all of our thinking is about alcohol. It`s just alcohol. It`s just alcohol. Alcohol is what killed her and kills millions of people. It doesn`t matter what the drug is. It`s all the same. You guys agree?
CATHERWOOD: 100 percent.
JIMENEZ: Alcohol`s a drug, period.
PINSKY: Bob, you`re saddened.
FORREST: Well, I feel for that family. It`s really sad. And that they don`t have the education about the problem that she had. You know, I --
PINSKY: So let`s --
FORREST: When friends get cancer, everybody goes on the internet and tries to find out everything about cancer. But when they have addiction, it`s just like, oh, whatever, they need to grow up.
CATHERWOOD: My heart goes out to the loved ones of addicts even more so than other addicts and alcoholics because it`s such an incredibly tough place to be where you want more than anything to help this person that you love, but there really is very little you can do about it. Except for continue to enable them, which is the most dangerous thing you can.
PINSKY: Or Al-Anon programs. I`ve got to take a break.
Up next, we will look at what some celebrities had to say about Amy`s death. So, stay with us.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of artists are just too sensitive for the world.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was talented.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, so talented. It`s just tragic.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: May Amy rest in peace.
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PINSKY: The world was shocked when 27-year-old British singer, Amy Winehouse, was found dead in her London home last summer. Today`s coroner`s report confirms she died of alcohol excess. Three bottles of vodka were discovered by police when they arrived at her home.
Back with me to talk about this is Bob Forrest, vh-1`s "Celebrity Rehab" and "Sober House," himself a recovering addict. Mike Catherwood, recovering alcoholic addict, also my co-host on "Loveline," and Jennifer Jimenez, she is house manager on vh-1`s "Sober House" and recovering person as well.
Bob, before the break we were about to say, you know, how sad we felt about Amy`s family and how they didn`t seem to understand what they were dealing with, that alcohol and drugs, same thing for the addict.
FORREST: Yes. (INAUDIBLE)
PINSKY: What do people need to know? If you were to speak down the barrel of the camera to the American public, what do they need to know? I`ll give each of you a chance maybe to say this. We`ve got a couple of minutes here.
FORREST: That addiction is a real tangible thing. It`s not some vague morality or --
PINSKY: It`s a brain disease.
FORREST: Yes. It`s a distortion of the way the brain functions. And it`s really easily understood if you know it and you study it. Like I can predict things, you know, that what`s going to happen most likely if the person doesn`t realize something. It always has a natural history to it. It ends tragically and horribly.
And what shocks me is the Jackson Family and this family. They`d been living with addiction in the center of their lives for decades in the Jackson case, for years with Amy Winehouse, yet they knew very little about it. They couldn`t even understand what the word addiction meant.
PINSKY: If they were cancer, they`d have educated themselves.
FORREST: You would have gone online, you would read the books, you would have figured it out.
PINSKY: Jennifer, you`re next. What do you say? The world about addiction, how do they understand it?
JIMENEZ: You know, it will kill you. It will take you to any lengths to destroy you and your family around you. And you know --
PINSKY: And your family can`t change that.
PINSKY: They can go to Al-Anon, take care of themselves, but they can`t change the addict.
JIMENEZ: No, but when they stop enabling and when they stop dancing the dance with you, things do change. When you know that, you know, you have no more other -- you have no other where to go but up and you have to work really hard. I`ll tell you, recovery is not easy. It`s not a pretty journey, but it`s worth it. It really is worth it.
You know, I was a hopeless case, and through all that, I`ve come out on the other side. That I`ve had to do the work, and I see so many people on a daily basis doing the work. And it does work. But this disease will talk to you in the wildest, craziest ways. And it may not even be about using drugs or alcohol, but it will eventually lead you there.
PINSKY: I always say it`s like the plant in "little shop of horrors." if you go in the room with the plant, you`re going in. Mike, I`m going to switch gears. These two, I think, addressed that issue fairly eloquently.
PINSKY: I want to talk about "Dancing with the Stars" for a second.
CATHERWOOD: Oh, why not?
PINSKY: You were a "Dancing with the Stars" Star. I, by the way, nearly shanked the judges for them kicking you off so early. I still find that intolerable. But Nancy Grace, who was with me earlier in the show today --
CATHERWOOD: Oh, Nancy.
PINSKY: But she would -- listen, I admire what she`s doing. She`s really taking it very seriously. This is my question to you, we`ve got about 30 seconds left. How hard is it for someone who`s not a dancer, who has a certain public profile, now exposing themselves to this experience and the potential humiliation?
CATHERWOOD: It`s incredibly humiliating. It`s terrifyingly embarrassing. And, it`s really like a tidal wave of embarrassment.
PINSKY: I`ve got 15 seconds. Is Nancy`s esteem -- should we hold her in higher esteem for being well and do this?
CATHERWOOD: We should. But she should show more skin.
CATHERWOOD: God bless her with an ample bosom and a full derriere.
PINSKY: With that, thank you to my guests. I`ve got to go. We`ll be here tomorrow. Please stay with us. Join us then. We`ll see you then.