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Cops Search Lake for Baby Lisa; Where is 5-year-old Jahessye Shockley?
Aired October 27, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RYAN SMITH, HOST, IN SESSION ON TRUTV (voice-over): Baby Lisa Irwin still missing. Her parents calling off a press conference. Are they hiding something? Police launching a new search by water. Is this now a homicide investigation?
And meanwhile, another little girl missing for almost two weeks. Did the media down play the case of Jahessye Shockley?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I believe it`s because she`s a little black kid.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: Or is it of her mother`s criminal past. What is being done to find Jahessye?
Plus, was today`s game changer in the Michael Jackson death trial could Conrad Murray walk free based on today`s stunning testimony?
And later, one teacher, five students and four years in prison. The crazy story of an educator pleading insanity for sex with minors.
(on camera): Good evening. I`m Ryan Smith, sitting in for Dr. Drew.
And tonight, police search a small lake for Baby Lisa. And once again, they turn up nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators now searching a lake just a short drive from Baby Lisa`s home. It is less than two miles away.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So police in boats are scouring this lake.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s definitely a continuing searches going on on all fronts to try to find Baby Lisa.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Baby Lisa`s family is preparing for authorities to question the missing baby`s two young brothers.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The boys were interviewed only once before, right after the baby vanished.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: The 5-year-old and 8-year-old started in bed with mom, and somewhere after midnight went to an upper bunk bed, like was woken up from something -
NANCY GRACE, FORMER PROSECUTOR: They have said they heard odd noises that night. Problem, Dr. Drew -
GRACE: -- problem!
SMITH: You know, cops searched a pond near the home of the missing 11-month-old Lisa Irwin and they say the search was not initiated by a tip. So the question obviously then becomes why were they there?
Plus, Baby Lisa`s parents pulled the plug on a highly anticipated news conference and they canceled the media walk through that they planned that was going to go through their home. They say they are exhausted. But the story just gets more and more confusing.
And here`s another question. Will they also cancel a crucial police interview tomorrow? All these things, police begging for information and they`re getting cancellations.
Now, police plan on re-questioning and DNA testing Baby Lisa`s two older brothers tomorrow. They are ages six and eight. They were both home when their sister vanished. What could they know?
Straight out to my guest, let`s talk about the story that is so troubling, because everyone is looking for Baby Lisa. But at the same time, it`s frustrating as well. Prosecutor Stacey Honowitz is with us, also CNN Correspondent Jim Spellman.
And, Jim, I`ll start with you. They`re searching this lake area. And, Jim, when I hear that, I - I start fearing the worst. What are authorities saying about why they searched that area?
JIM SPELLMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Ryan, they say they want to expand the perimeter of the areas that they`ve searched. So this is sort of the next thing out from areas they`ve already searched.
They used these three dogs that are cadaver dogs. Two of them were on land around the lake and one was actually in a boat. And this is a dog that has the capability of detecting a dead body, even if it is underwater. They have them out here. The dogs didn`t find any hits. They even had a dive team, though, ready to go if they did find anything.
You know, police here are just stymied, because they`re not sure quite where to go with the investigation since they don`t have access to freely interview the parents. They`ve had over 900 leads here, Ryan, and they want to be able to run those by the family. They want to clear up timeline issues. Lots of stuff. And the family is still refusing to an unfettered interview with the police here.
SMITH: You know, and - and that`s part of the frustration in all of this, the family saying all along, though, they want their daughter found.
And, Stacey Honowitz, let`s talk about these searches, because I think of cadaver dog searching and I fear the worst. But does that necessarily mean that police are leaning that way, or could it just mean they`re doing everything they can as Jim is saying?
STACEY HONOWITZ, PROSECUTOR: Well, I think by them coming out and saying that it wasn`t a tip that led them to go to the pond, I think they`re basically just doing everything in their power. And when you`re being stone walled by the parents, which is the most ridiculous thing you can ever imagine a missing child investigation, then they have to really search all over and just do what they need to do.
When you think about the idea that the parents have cancelled press conferences, have cancelled the media tour, and now we`re waiting to see if they will let them talk to the two children, then something just doesn`t smell right because I know that most of your viewers and probably anybody with any common sense would say if the child is missing, why wouldn`t they do everything in their power to be out there, to have their faces in front of the camera, and not to say I`m exhausted.
We could care less if you`re exhausted. Your kid is missing! Buck up, wake up and talk to the police. That`s what they need to do so that this investigation can move along to try to find this child. There might be crucial information that the children have and that they have.
SMITH: And we know from investigations like this, every minute, every second counts. I understand they might be exhausted, but there`s no time to rest when a child is missing.
And, Jim, are police commenting on this supposed exhaustion and the parents not wanting to meet right now? I have to assume they have to be so frustrated, and they want to ask questions, but they can`t unless the parents cooperate.
SPELLMAN: Yes. They really are frustrated. We hear that from them over and over as these tips, you know, get - get cold, people`s memories dim, and they have so much information that they need to sort of process and they need the parents to be a part of that process, they say.
And listen, this exhaustion thing, I`m sorry, is just ridiculous. They have a lawyer in New York, an investigator, local counsel who has a staff that they are so overwhelmingly exhausted that they can`t come and lead this already organized single pool camera on this tour that they brought - they came up with the idea, you know, that they`re so exhausted, they can`t do that, it is just ridiculous. I`m sorry. It doesn`t make any sense.
SMITH: Yes. You know what, Jim, I`m glad you said that because it sounds ridiculous to me. I don`t get it. I don`t understand it. Everybody is working to try to find Baby Lisa, and what are they doing, they`re saying they`re exhausted, I don`t see it.
One more question for Stacey here. Stacey, they`re saying the brothers are going to be questioned by a specially trained social worker on this re-interview.
SMITH: What does that sound like to you? Because that`s a very interesting thing. I wonder why someone specially trained is needed in this kind of case.
HONOWITZ: Well, under normal circumstances the police officers are going to question a child, and most officers that are trained in certain departments, they know how to speak to a child, but you have to remember, these parents objected to the police talking to them. It was kind of under their terms. They said they wanted this type of person to come in because they didn`t want the children to be upset.
Now look, I think if you look at an investigation, you have to weigh the pros and cons. Do you weigh your children being upset versus your child missing? It just doesn`t make any sense. So when they`re calling this person in, it`s a person who basically is going to try to bond with the child, to make the child feel comfortable, to not instill fear in the child, which a police officer which is used to speaking to kids would never do that, but again, this is under their terms which raises suspicions once again because they are calling the shots, and they shouldn`t be.
This should be an all out, we will do whatever you need us to do. We will cooperate in any way. And so everybody now is thinking that`s it. You know, they`re suspicious.
SMITH: Jim, one more question for you in all of this. The DNA testing, you know, a lot of times when DNA tests are taken, you know, police are doing an investigation, but it can mean something more. Why the DNA testing? Is there any reason they`ve given about why that needs to happen for these two young boys?
SPELLMAN: Sure. Well, they went through this extensive search last week, you recall, 17 hour search here with just dozens of officers. They collected a lot of DNA. So what they need to do is eliminate all of the DNA of family members, people that normally would be in the house to try to eliminate all of that. And if there`s DNA left unaccounted for, that might be where they would focus on trying to see if that was DNA from a stranger or possibly an intruder. So they need to just eliminate as much DNA in the house as they can.
SMITH: Certainly understand that and they`re doing all they can down there.
Jim Spellman, thank you so much. Stacey Honowitz as well.
Coming up next, folks, another missing girl, 5-year-old Jahessye Shockley, vanished when her mother stepped out to run an errand. You see her right there.
Now, her family believes her case isn`t getting enough media attention compared to the cases that we`re seeing everywhere else like Baby Lisa.
Well, you know what we`re going to do here is we`re going to talk a little bit about her case. We`re going to do everything we can to make sure all children out there who are missing are found. And we`re going to talk a little bit about Jahessye with her family members to see what`s being done to find her.
We`ll be right back.
SMITH: Tonight, we want to highlight a mysterious case of another missing little girl. Now, you see her right there. She`s just adorable. Her name is Jahessye Shockley. If you have any information on this girl, call 623-930-HELP. I want to keep her picture up on the screen. And, again, the number, 623-930-HELP.
That is first and foremost. No matter what we talk about on this show, we want to make sure that if people are out there and they`ve seen Little Jahessye, please call authorities.
Now, here`s the background. She vanished from her home in Suburban Phoenix when her mom stepped away to run an errand and that was two weeks ago. And despite countless tips, there have been no signs of her.
But this story isn`t getting half as much attention as Baby Lisa. Not to say that one should be attended to more than another, but it`s a question that we`re asking. And part of the question that people are asking in this case, is it because of Jahessye`s troubled family background, her mom spent time in jail for child abuse of Jahessye`s older siblings. And those children were removed from her home before Jahessye vanished.
Now, Jahessye`s mom is furious. Some media outlets and police would point the finger at her. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERICE HUNTER, JAHESSYE SHOCKLEY`S MOTHER: It`s very unfair for you to ask me that. Do I look like I hurt my daughter? Do I look like I hurt my daughter? She`s scared. She`s scared. (INAUDIBLE) -
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: You know, bottom line is, this family is desperate for help and we want to give this little girl the attention she deserves. I want you to keep putting up that picture, producers, so our viewers can see Little Jahessye.
Now Jahessye`s grandmother, Shirley Johnson and her aunt, Josie Hunter, they both join me now. Thank you both so much for being here and sharing your story and talking to us.
And, you know what -you know, Shirley, let me just start with you because I know your family has been through so much. What do you feel has happened in this investigation so far and I know you`ve said that Jahessye`s case isn`t getting the attention it deserves or the attention from police. Tell us what`s been going on so far.
SHIRLEY JOHNSON, GRANDMOTHER OF JAHESSYE SHOCKLEY: So far, you know, just as much as I know from the police department. We haven`t gotten enough attention out there and keeping this baby`s face on the screen and finding out exactly what Jahessye is about, you know, her personality.
All we have been getting is dirty media from the police department, feedback about Jerice, and we need to be focused on Jahessye putting a personality to her face so people can bring my grandbaby home.
Jahessye is a beautiful, energetic young girl. She`s not just a face out there, she`s somebody`s child. She`s my grandbaby. And I want to just put a plea out there for anyone that has her, bring her home, take her to a police department, take her to a hospital, take her somewhere, and let her come home and be with her grandma and her other siblings.
There`s not been enough attention given to Jahessye. I have been fighting the local media and begging them to get it out. The Glendale Police Department hasn`t gotten it out. The FBI just really needs to come in and take over this case.
SMITH: When you say they haven`t gotten it out, Shirley, what are you saying? Are you saying that they haven`t been trying to find your daughter (sic), or have they been talking to you and giving you updates? What`s happening there?
JOHNSON: Well, they just started trying to give me updates when I was crying out - crying outrage. And after a week of not hearing anything, after two days of seeing them stop looking - been visibly looking for my grandbaby, filed another Amber alert. Just not even communicating to me or the family what`s really going on with this case. Looking at all the registered sex offenders in the immediate area, 544, you know, registered sex offenders we found out about. It`s just ridiculous.
And they think that I`m not supposed to be outraged? I thought the local media would - would get it out nationally, but it`s been confined to - to the city of Phoenix and very few cities outside of Phoenix and Glendale. People in Mesa barely hear about it. If you ask somebody put that - my baby`s picture up, they don`t even know anything about this baby.
SMITH: Now Shirley, I just want to ask you this one question. I have to do it because it`s part of the story, but - but I really want to ask you. And while we keep Jahessye`s picture on the screen so people can see, I want to remind people, if you`ve seen this child, I want you to call this number, 623-930-HELP.
But Shirley, this is - you talk about the media talking about your daughter. I just want to - I want you to set the record straight. You`re now - you`ve gotten this story on a national level. People are watching now. Set the record straight for us.
Jahessye`s - Jahessye`s mother, as we said, served three-and-a-half years in - in prison for child abuse of her three older children. Now, that`s according to court records. Her father, registered sex offender. I know that at one point, Shirley, that you had maybe talked a little bit about and told police that she was abusing her children. This was in the past.
Do you think she had anything to do with your daughter`s disappearance - or granddaughter`s disappearance, or was she in any way abusing Jahessye? Set the record straight for us.
JOHNSON: I - I know at the time that she was in prison, we went through four years of reunification and she went through rehabilitation. And I would never have put those - allowed those children to be with her - as you know, from the first time I intervened, I would not allow those children to get - to go back with her if I thought she was - she had done this.
I want the police to look at everyone. I want them to look at everyone in this case. But don`t stop looking other places. Glendale Police Department have fouled this up, you know, and they don`t want to say they need help.
You know, they need to be certified in child abduction response team. They don`t have that. They just now, after the fact, trying to get certified. And that was on - and it`s in public record. It was on TV the other day, they`re just getting certified.
You know, you need help. Call somebody for help. Don`t stop putting that baby`s picture out there and information out there for this child.
The Amber alert was fouled up, you know? It just wasn`t handled correctly at all.
SMITH: Josie, I want to ask you about this because the media, you talked about this earlier, how they`re talking about your sister`s past, everything that happened then. Again, I have to ask you, what happened to the children in the past?
And the only reason I ask this is because I know how police investigate these cases. They look at everybody, but if they see people sometimes with criminal backgrounds, they will look at those people and they`ll say, wait a second, was there some involvement here?
So I`m looking for you guys to set the record straight on that. What happened in the past, and what do you want to say to police, media, everyone out there who might think that your sister, Jahessye`s mother, was involved in some way or may have abused Jahessye?
JOSIE HUNTER, AUNT OF JAHESSYE: Well, what I have to say is if the police find evidence of whoever did it, including whoever - Jarice or whoever they feel - I feel every - whoever did it should be held accountable. I right now cannot say that I know for sure that Jarice did this or anything like that. I want them to look at everyone.
She does have - have a past. I don`t agree with her past and -
SMITH: So you think she may - you think there may be involvement? Josie, I have to ask. Josie, I have to ask. So you think there may be some sort of involvement by her mother?
JO. HUNTER: No. No. I didn`t say that.
SMITH: Or are you saying you don`t know if she - oh, go ahead. Go ahead, Josie. OK, go ahead, Josie. Go ahead.
JO. HUNTER: I said I cannot 100 percent say that she did not or she did. I - I don`t know what happened. I was not here. And that`s why we`re looking to detectives and investigators to find this out.
That`s what they`re here for. That is their job. And if they feel that she has done something, then - then get the evidence and bring it - bring it out front and do what you have to do. I want whoever is responsible for my niece being missing right now to be held accountable.
And, like I said, I do not agree with her past. She - she has - she has a past, and I don`t agree with it.
SMITH: OK. I know she has a past, and we`re going to talk about this a little bit more. We`re going to focus on Jahessye, though, and make sure she is found.
We`ll be right back. Keep it right here.
There she is, right there, and, if you`ve seen her, give a call to 623-930-HELP.
SMITH: Welcome back. I`m Ryan Smith, sitting in for Dr. Drew, and tonight we are back with the family of a missing five-year-old, Jahessye Schockley. Now, we`re going to keep putting her picture up as well, and there`s the family members right there, Shirley and Josie.
Now, she vanished from her home about two weeks ago. Her grandmother, Shirley Johnson; her aunt, Josie Hunter; they`re both back with us. And there is Jahessye.
And, again, if you have seen her face, please call police. We want to bring attention to this case so that we can help police who are looking for Jahessye.
And, by the way, the police have said about this - and I know we`re talking about their involvement in all this, Shirley and Josie, they`ve said that they consider Jahessye`s disappearance to be a high priority and continue to have a team of detectives following up on leads.
But Shirley and Josie, I just want to react to something, Josie, that you said earlier. You said you want the police to tell you about anybody who may be involved, including - even if that means Jahessye`s mom.
And I just want to play something from a cousin of yours, and - and I just want to make sure we set the record straight here. A cousin in the family said that she was worried that Jahessye was being abused at home by her mom. I just want you to take a look at this, and then I`m going to ask you both to set the record straight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LISA VANCE, COUSIN: At our function, at our get togethers, Jahessye was not herself. I`ve seen marks on Jahessye that led me to believe that she was being abused in Jerice`s home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: All right. That`s from an affiliate right there.
But, Shirley, let me just ask you, this is a cousin of yours coming out and saying it again. We`re interested in finding what`s going on here, so I know when we ask this question, I ask it cautiously, don`t want to offend you. But, at the same time, there is a cousin saying that she saw bruises.
What do you make of that? Is that true? Is there a split in your family as to whether or not there was some abuse going on here?
JOHNSON: Well, if she`s being the loving cousin that she says she is, if she saw this going on, why she didn`t call somebody for help for Jahessye? If she loved Jahessye so much, why did she let Jahessye stay in that situation and not make me aware, the - the authorities aware at all? So I take that with a grain of salt. She`s such a loving cousin.
I just want, you know, all this time on all this trash being thrown out there, we - we don`t even know about Jahessye. You know, the public don`t know. They just know we`re frustrated with the Glendale Police Department, who I said needs to be - have a magnifying glass put over how they handled this whole case. We need to look at how the nation looks at little African-American children coming up missing and other children of color.
We need to look at these things. Who gets the most attention? Whose families are broken up in this case? Are all the children always taken out of the home? And that`s not so. Baby Lisa`s siblings have not been taken - taken out of her home.
So we have to look at what`s the dynamics of this whole thing when you don`t have money, when you have a certain race or a certain nationality.
SMITH: Shirley Johnson, Josie Hunter, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for bringing Jahessye`s story to light.
And, again, I want to put up Jahessye`s picture. I want all of our viewers to see this. I want them to see her picture, and if you see Jahessye, please call authorities.
There she is, right there. Bring her home.
Now, up next, what a day in the Michael Jackson death trial. Incredible testimony from a defense witness may have flipped the case on its head. We`re going to have more.
Dr. Drew is going to weigh in on this one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH (voice-over): Two huge cases. First, sparks fly in the Michael Jackson death trial as defense lawyers make a last ditch effort for an acquittal. Will today`s witnesses save Conrad Murray? I`m talking to the lawyer for a key player in the case.
And later, a teacher having sex with five different students, now facing four years behind bars. I`m asking her attorney why she pled insanity and why it didn`t work.
ED CHERNOFF, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Have you formed an opinion about whether or not by May 4th, at least, or even earlier that Michael Jackson was dependent on Demerol?
DR. ROBERT WALDMAN, ADDICTION SPECIALIST: yes.
CHERNOFF: What is that opinion?
WALDMAN: I believe there is evidence that he was dependent upon Demerol.
CHERNOFF: What about addicted?
SMITH (on-camera): Tonight in the Michael Jackson death trial, explosive testimony from defense witness, Dr. Robert Waldman. Now, he is an addiction specialist who testified that Jackson was dependent and possibly addicted to Demerol, a pain killer so strong that it`s often compared to morphine.
Now, the defense used Jackson`s own medical records from his dermatologist, Dr. Arthur Klein`s office, to prove that he had a growing dependency. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHERNOFF: Dr. Waldman, as you see, his days progress, we go from 200 to 300. Is that significant to you as an addiction medicine specialist?
CHERNOFF: Of what significance is that to you?
WALDMAN: It implies that he`s no longer getting a therapeutic effect from the prior dosage, and this is consistent with the development of tolerance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: Was Jackson`s possible addiction to Demerol so strong that he would do anything to get his fix, including self medicate behind Dr. Murray`s back? That`s what the defense tried to show today. And joining us right now, by the way, Dr. Klein`s attorney, Garo Ghazarian. Did I say that right?
GARO GHAZARIAN, ATTORNEY FOR DR. ARNOLD KLEIN: Ghazarian.
SMITH: Ghazarian, I`m sorry. And on the phone right now is the host of the show, board certified physician and addiction specialist, Dr. Drew. All right. Dr. Drew, thank you for being a guest on your own show.
VOICE OF DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Ryan, I appreciate you covering me there, but this was a story I just couldn`t resist ringing in on. I must tell you that Dr. Klein`s records of the spectacular doses of Demerol given as an outpatient are as wild as Dr. Murray having given him propofol. An addict, given an opiate on a single occasion, and especially multiple occasions, is on his way to addiction.
And in this case, clearly addicted. And by the way, they`re splitting hairs about dependency versus addiction. Dependency is what happens with addicts late in the game. So, not only is this opiate addict back on his drug of choice, he is now, in fact, as the witness suggested dependent on the drug.
And Ryan, I`ve been saying all along, this insomnia nonsense is exactly that, nonsense. Insomnia due to acute and persistent recurrent drug withdrawal. That`s why he couldn`t sleep, for sure.
SMITH: Yes. You know, Drew, I hear you, and I was stunned by all of this, because all of this comes from Botox treatments, I guess, is what they testified about today. And we`re talking about March 12th, 200 milligrams of Demerol, March 17th, another 200, April 2nd, another 200 --
SMITH: Eighteen different appearances.
PINSKY: Giving Michael Jackson Demerol for discomfort because of Botox injections is as wild as giving him propofol for insomnia. These are outlandish, outlandish things to give a patient, A, in the outpatient setting, B, on a recurrent basis, and C, for an addict. He was treated for opiate addiction which a lifelong condition that when re-exposed to opiates, reignites.
And nobody was -- everyone was asleep at the wheel. And that Dr. Murray allowed Dr. Klein to do that without calling Dr. Klein, questioning Dr. Klein, and by the way, in Dr. Murray`s interrogation with the police, he states he was aware that he was going to Klein and coming back, quote, "wasted," totally wasted were his words.
SMITH: Yes. I can`t believe he didn`t account for all that, but Garo, talk to us about your client, Dr. Klein. You heard what Dr. Drew just said. Why give all of this? Why all this Demerol? It doesn`t sound right for somebody getting Botox.
GHAZARIAN: Certainly, everyone seems to try and make it as though it doesn`t sound right. I`m not a doctor, I`m an attorney. But I have spoken to many other physicians, anesthesiologists, dermatologist, and other practitioners.
SMITH: Wait. Hold on. Let me let Drew jump in here.
PINSKY: I am a physician, and I`m an addictionologist and I treat addicts every day, and I am telling you, this is outlandish treatment of a patient with a history of addiction. I am a physician. I`m board certified in both internal medicine and addiction medicine. And this record was as astonishing to me as Dr. Murray giving the propofol to the patient.
GHAZARIAN: If I may respond, Dr. Drew.
SMITH: Go ahead.
GHAZARIAN: That is your opinion and you`re entitled to it. And let me respond as follows. If he was an addict, Michael Jackson that is, then explain to me how is it that if he is receiving 200 or 300 milligrams at particular visits in March or April, when we take a look at June, we have him getting 100 milligrams, not increasing from the 200 and 300 upwards, but rather decreasing down to 100 milligram. And also if you are an addiction --
GHAZARIAN: Let me finish, doctor.
GHAZARIAN: No, let me finish.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
GHAZARIAN: If you are a doctor who knows about addiction, let me just ask you this. Then, how is it that half life of two and a half to four hours, this man doesn`t go to the doctor for seven days from June 9 to June 16. How is he addicted to Demerol? Where is he getting his Demerol in that seven days period of time? He`s not addicted to Demerol, I disagree.
PINSKY: Because I have an absolutely categorical explanation for that. That is, as I said, what you see is that as Dr. Klein or somebody in his office, who knows who it was, by the way, I`m not specifically saying it even is Dr. Klein, we don`t know that, but somebody in his office realized evidently they were in trouble and began tapering him down.
And what do you see in response to that is massive increase in his withdrawal symptoms. He starts having severe insomnia, feeling hot and cold, and what do you see in response to that? He gets a cross tolerant substance.
He starts getting midazolam, Ativan, propofol, all things that will suppress opiate withdrawal to one degree or another and help him with his sleep, but there was a marked increase in his withdrawal symptoms as they attempted to reduce his Demerol, very clearly. That`s all clear in the records.
GHAZARIAN: Well --
SMITH: Wait. Why wouldn`t your client see this? Why would your client keep him on this pattern? Because, look, the increase is taking place under your client`s watch.
GHAZARIAN: You know what, you guys have it all wrong.
GHAZARIAN: Because my client didn`t have to see anything. My client is treating a patient for particular procedures. Injections to the lip, injections under the eyelids. Have you ever had a needle stuck under your eyelid? I beg to differ that you don`t need anything or you don`t need Demerol --
SMITH: But it`s not need anything, it`s 200, and Drew, maybe you can put this into perspective for us --
PINSKY: Let me put in perspective for you.
SMITH: 200, 300 mg of Demerol. What`s that like?
GHAZARIAN: Let me respond. Go ahead.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
SMITH: Go ahead, Drew.
GHAZARIAN: Well, you know -- well, no, because you should know and you do know that people have different pain threshold. They have a certain tolerance for pain and other people have certain tolerance for medications, regardless, of whether or not they`re addicted.
SMITH: All right. Now, let me let Drew respond. And Drew, can you put this into perspective for us, this 200, 300 mg of Demerol?
PINSKY: Two things. Let`s -- if you were going to have a really significant surgical procedure, really maximum pain control achieved at 100 milligrams of Demerol, it really is. That`s a massive, massive dose of Demerol.
An opiate addict who receives 100 mg a Demerol, somebody with any history of opiate addiction is in harm`s way the moment they`re exposed to that drug once. Exposed to it repeatedly in escalating doses, now we have a full blown reigniting of the addictive process.
GHAZARIAN: Well, but you never answered my remarks about seven-day gap in between, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: I did explain it. That those are the days in which Michael was having severe withdrawal symptoms. He is hot, he`s cold, he`s agitated, and getting large doses of propofol and benzodiazepines which will suppress those in opiate withdrawal. We actually use those kinds of things in the hospital to suppress opiate withdrawal symptoms sometimes.
GHAZARIAN: You use what, propofol to suppress opiate withdrawal?
PINSKY: I`ve actually seen propofol suppress withdrawal, but no, we use things like Ativan. We use a midazolam. Those kinds of -- those classes of medications that he was getting in massive dosage.
GHAZARIAN: Let`s assume --
SMITH: Let me jump in for a second, because your client did speak about this. He spoke about it long time ago, and let`s get his word for it. You can talk to us a little bit about this. This is Dr. Arnold Klein appearing on "Larry King Live" back in 2009, and he talked about drugs prescribed to Michael Jackson.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, CNN ANCHOR: Did you ever give him drugs?
DR. ARNOLD KLEIN, MICHAEL JACKSON`S DERMATOLOGIST: Did I ever give him medication? I used to do surgical procedures, I gave him medication. I once gave him muscle relaxant in the last seven (ph) years and that was about it.
I never gave him anything to take home that was addicting. I mean, I was aware that he used propofol, a drug we talked about a lot before which is a drug of addiction, people don`t know, and it`s very poorly controlled by the government.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: Now, can I step away from, and I get your point, Garo, about those seven-day period where he wasn`t taking the drug. But what I`m looking at here is May 12th, May 17th, August 2nd, August 15th, August 17th, August 25th, August 27th, August 30th, 100, 200, -- I`m sorry, April, excuse me, March and April, on through may.
I just -- look, we`re talking hundreds of milligrams of a drug that drew says for a major surgical procedure maybe 100 and even that`s extreme.
GHAZARIAN: Well, I think Dr. Drew is opining without knowing Michael Jackson`s predicament. It gives syncrisis (ph), tolerance for pain, tolerance medication, and --
PINSKY: Let me just say, I`ve studied this case top to bottom. I`ve looked at all his medical records. I`ve looked at all the interrogations and the reports of what happened to Michael Jackson, and I would say roughly two weeks into those procedures where he was receiving Demerol, if that were my patient with history of opiate addiction even in the distant past, I would hospitalize him immediately, for treatment of their addiction, because that`s out of control addiction now.
PINSKY: He is going in. He`s motivated by his addiction.
SMITH: I see. I see. One more question for you, Garo.
GHAZARIAN: Go ahead.
SMITH: You`re saying Dr. Klein in his treatment of Michael Jackson never noticed any kind of addiction, never noticed any kind of addictive behavior, did not worry about high levels of Demerol and other drugs?
GHAZARIAN: What none of you seemed to know --
GHAZARIAN: Michael Jackson did not go in there asking for Demerol. Michael Jackson did not specify what he would like to receive so that he can be put in a comfortable state so that this procedures on his face could be undertaken. Furthermore, I`ve seen video surveillance of him coming in and coming out and he is not staggering like others have suggested. And furthermore, who are we talking about here?
All of the medication was sitting in Michael Jackson`s bedroom with Conrad Murray there seeing all of this medication. Who should have hospitalized this man, if anybody? My client should hospitalize him?
PINSKY: Can I ring in here? Because I absolutely agree with what you`re saying.
PINSKY: You are categorically correct on that point. And here is where it really broke down, and actually, I feel sorry for Dr. Klein is why didn`t Dr. Murray contact Dr. Klein. Why didn`t he pick up the phone and call him and go, you know what, I think we have a problem here. That, to me, is unconscionable. And I feel bad for Dr. Klein that that did not happen.
SMITH: And you know what, not only that, didn`t contact Dr. Metzger, other people could have been contacted. And all along, part of what came out in a case today, when you have a situation like this, and Drew, I know you`ve said this many times, you bring in a team for help.
You try to get that personnel if they do have that addiction. Dr. Murray took that all on himself. Dr. Drew, thank you so much for joining us. Garo, thank you, as well. We appreciate your time.
GHAZARIAN: All right.
SMITH: All right. Now, when we come back, an Ohio teacher is found guilty of sex with five teenage students. We`ve got an exclusive with her attorneys. Keep it right here.
SMITH: Tune in at the top of the hour for Joy Behar as she`s got a special guest with her, Chaz Bono. That`s coming up at 10:00 eastern right here on HLN.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These young men may appear as if they are tough guys, but in reality, they are truly hurting. She let him down. He trusted her. As he begins his freshman year in college, he should be looking at life with great possibility and happiness. Miss Schuler has stolen his innocence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: This is a case that has deeply affected an Ohio community. A former Ohio school teacher found guilty today on charges related to sexual encounters with five students. Stacy Schuler`s attorneys claim that she was insane at the time. They argue that the students took advantage of her. And one of the students` fathers had this to say just hours ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He suffered through depression, loss motivation, almost didn`t go to college. When he was around home, he didn`t want to be around family or anyone. My son was not who he used to be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: All right. Joining us now for their first interview since today`s verdict, Stacy Schuler`s attorneys, Charlie H. Rittgers, and his dad, Charlie H -- sorry, Charlie M. Rittgers, and his dad, Charlie H. Rittgers. Guys, forgive me, I`m going to call you Charlie M. and Charlie H. if you don`t mind. Then, also, here is psychotherapist, Stacy Kaiser.
All right. Charlie H., I`ll start with you. This insanity defense. I know the judge called it a magnificent leap. Why did you offer that?
CHARLIE H. RITTGERS, ATTORNEY FOR STACY SCHULER: Well, there was no other explanation for our client`s behavior. She lived for 32 years on this earth without ever doing anything that would harm another human being. In fact, she dedicated her life to helping other humans, and that came out loud and clear during the trial with our witnesses.
We sent her immediately to be evaluated once we learned from her that she had no memory of the actual sexual events. And the psychologist who evaluated her, a forensic psychologist, determined that she was suffering from bipolar, that she was given Zoloft, and that Zoloft exacerbated the bipolar disorder, and it was magnified by the alcohol.
SMITH: But Charlie M. let me ask you this. This happened between August and December. So, that`s a four-month period. And I think a lot of people look at the insanity defense and say wait a second, all these different encounters that she was accused of, each and every one she was, somehow, insane or affected mentally?
CHARLIE M. RITTGERS, ATTORNEY FOR STACY SCHULER: And you know, that is a very difficult question. I think that was the most difficult part of the case, but the fact of the matter is that if she went home and drank to excess and took this Zoloft by herself, which I think she did at certain points when those young men were not at her home, she wouldn`t have known that she was in a manic state, because she would wake up in the morning, go to work, have no idea what was occurring.
SMITH: So, your thought is that these young men knew about this condition and would constantly take advantage of her, knowing about this, sharing it with each other? Is that the theory here?
CHARLIE H. RITTGERS: No.
CHARLIE M. RITTGERS: No. No. I think that it was -- she was -- it`s her perception that she is very naive. She has the makeup of a person that`s eager to please anyone. And she was the type of teacher that a lot of students took advantage of in the classroom just like any high school student would.
And I think, these young men pushed the envelope, and there were some boundary issues. But by no means are we alleging that they forced their selves into her home or for their selves upon her.
SMITH: All right. Guys, I want to bring in Stacy Kaiser. And Stacy, I want your take on this.
DR. STACY KAISER, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, I do think that there is a psychological issue here, because anyone that is a sexual predator like this woman does have psychological problems, but I have never seen a correlation between bipolar disorder and sexual predators.
What I see here is a woman who had low self esteem, who probably couldn`t get quality relationships on her own, and she was targeting a target that she thought she would be able to accomplish getting, and she was able to accomplish that.
SMITH: All right. Charlie Rittgers, both Charlie Rittgers, thank you so much for joining us. Stacy, thank you as well.
Now, next, a man whose wife had sex with a student. He`s going to tell us about the damage done to all the parties.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEBRA LAFAVE, FMR. TEACHER, CONVICTED OF HAVING SEX WITH STUDENT: My greatest regret would probably be the fact that I put this young man through this. I mean, the media has totally taken it out of proportion, and he`s suffering even more so by the media`s actions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: You know, we`ve spoken about teachers who have illicit relations with students, but what about the victims, husbands, wives, and children. Well, joining us is one of those victims. Owen Lafave whose wife, Debra pleaded guilty to lewd and lascivious battery after a sexual encounter with a 14-year-old student back in 2004. And Owen, it`s great to have you with us. Now, Owen, today, we saw the effect this has on children, but what did it do to your family to have this happen to you?
OWEN LAFAVE, FORMER WIFE HAD SEX WITH STUDENT: Well, I think the impact and the spread is very wide and deep. First and foremost, I`d like to say what I`m kind of pleased to see and feel very sorry for the boys` families, but it`s very evident, you know, by the testimony given by the parents that these boys are victims, and I think in our society has a tendency with boys not to view them as victims.
But, you know, from an emotional standpoint, psychological development, they are severely impacted, and you know, we need to view them as victims to get the proper treatment. And that was something that became very evident. I worked on a documentary called After School. That`s in post production right now.
But even, you know, outside of the, you know, boys themselves and victims of the sexual encounter, obviously, I was personally impacted, and it spreads to, you know, the families, the communities, you know, the teachers that now have to deal with the ramifications and the additional scrutiny.
The kids in the classroom that now lost a teacher that, you know, is very well respected and liked as well as, you know, the impact it has on, you know, the peers.
SMITH: You know, Owen, what did you make of this insanity defense that they were claiming, that they were saying that this woman in this other case had drank, drugs, things like that, put her in a state where others were taking advantage of her, not necessarily as they clarified there, not necessarily doing anything forceful, but just that she wasn`t responsible.
LAFAVE: Well, you know, the insanity defense is very tough, obviously. The burden of proof then goes to the defense, which they have to then prove that, I mean, she had no idea what she was doing was wrong, and the template was actually already set out for them with my ex-wife`s case who was going to plead the same thing, and they ended up reaching a plea bargain.
I think, you know, where they went wrong here is they didn`t reach a plea before it actually went to trial and went to the courtroom. You know, quite frankly, and very simply, I think it was ludicrous, and she deserved the jail time that she`s going to get.
SMITH: Do you think we`re seeing a shift in the way that we talk about boys and being abused in these kinds of situations? Do you think we`re seeing female teachers held accountable just as male teachers would beheld accountable in cases like these?
LAFAVE: You know, I think so. I think we`ve had the dialogue the past number of years, and of course, I think it goes all the way back to Mary Kay Letourneau, but you know, seven years ago is when my ex-wife was initially arrested, and of course, it got -- garnered as significant amount of media attention.
And I think, you know, over the seven-year period of time and the number of incidents that`s happened since then, I think people are more receptive to the idea that these boys are, in fact, victims, and you know, they need to be treated as such and get the treatment that, you know, they need.
SMITH: You know, Owen Lafave, thank you so much for your time. We know you`ve been through so much, but it`s great to hear you speaking out as well. And it`s interesting to see the shift happening in our society. Well, Owen, thank you so much.
You know, Dr. Drew is going to be back tomorrow. Thanks for watching. Don`t miss Joy. She`s coming up right now. We`ll see you next time.