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Police Interview with Baby Lisa`s Brothers Canceled; Search Continues for Missing American in Aruba

Aired October 28, 2011 - 19:00   ET



JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, shocking developments in the case of missing Baby Lisa. The police interview with Lisa`s brothers, scheduled for today, canceled. This as news breaks that the family`s attorney`s been fired. Why all the sudden changes? Are Baby Lisa`s parents trying to hide something? And you won`t believe what they`re saying about the cell phones now.

Plus, a bizarre campaign of terror in the war on women. Cops say this man has sexually assaulted four alums of the same sorority. Why is he targeting these sorority women?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He made it obvious to our victims that he knew details or information about them personally.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How are the other women from the sorority protecting themselves?

And more drama at the Michael Jackson death trial. More fallout from the bombshell news that Michael Jackson was taking huge amounts of Demerol in the months leading up to his death. Fans demanding an investigation into who was giving Jackson Demerol and why.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to see them all fall like dominos.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re taking your calls. ISSUES starts now.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To pull out at the last minutes, and we find out, as you mentioned, that the local attorney is no longer on the case, obviously, a lot of confusion and chaos.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The reason is because the children might say something that could implicate Mom. That`s the most logical reason. Because these kinds of interviews happen all the time. The interviewers are specifically trained to work with children.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did anything look out of place other than her not being there?

DEBORAH BRADLEY, MOTHER OF LISA: No. No, it`s like they just walked in and disappeared.

JEREMY IRWIN, FATHER OF LISA: Took all of her things and our phones so we couldn`t call anybody.

JOHN WALSH, HOST, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": It doesn`t disturb me that family`s lawyer, but it bothers me when people won`t do interviews.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something is really wrong with Mom and Dad in this case, and I`m afraid that it probably is going to end up being something that led to the death of the child. I hate to say.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Breaking news in the search for Baby Lisa, and we are taking your phone calls.

Good evening, everyone. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, coming to you live from Los Angeles. It has now been 18 days since anyone has seen adorable, precious Baby Lisa Irwin. Look at that little smiling face. Where is she?

Tonight, three dramatic new twists in this story. Late last night, the Kansas City police, we`re told by reps from the missing child`s family, that the Baby Lisa`s brothers -- one is 8 years old, the other 5 or 6 -- would not be interviewed by authorities today, as had been planned all week long. No explanation offered as to why not. Why not? Let the kids talk to the cops.

Cops were also hoping to get DNA swabs from those boys, but it looks like that is not happening either.

Also, Kansas City lawyer Cyndy Short no longer represents Baby Lisa`s parents, Deborah Bradley and Jeremy Irwin. This woman, the lawyer, OK, off the case. No explanation why. There`s been word that she was fired by the lead attorney, New York hot-shot lawyer Joe Tacopina, but she denied that to "The Kansas City Star," saying Tacopina is in no position to fire her, that she works for the family, not him.

And then there is this huge news about one of the cell phones that Baby Lisa`s parents claim was taken along with their child. Apparently, somebody used that cell phone that night. Listen to what this woman, who says she got a call from that cell phone that was taken from the house told "GMA." Check this out.


MEGAN WRIGHT, RECEIVED CALL FROM IRWIN PHONE: I received a phone call, my phone did, the night that Baby Lisa went missing. It was apparently a 50-second phone call. I don`t know who answered it or what was said or who was on the other end of the phone.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: This case is getting stranger and stranger by the minute and still no sign of that adorable, helpless, 11-month-old girl. What do you think is going on? Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586- 7297.

Straight out to CNN`s Jim Spellman, live at the crime scene in Kansas City, Missouri. Jim, what`s the latest on this mystery phone call? It`s bizarre.

JIM SPELLMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we know that the night that Baby Lisa went missing that her parents also reported three cell phones were gone. Police have confirmed that that night a call was made from one of those phone calls. Today, a woman named Megan Wright came forward and said she got the call, but she doesn`t know the family. Very mysterious. Definitely something investigators here are focusing on.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, Deborah, the mother of the missing child, claims three cell phones, as you just heard from Jim, were taken from the family home at the very same time that Baby Lisa was reportedly allegedly kidnapped, OK.

The very night of Baby Lisa`s disappearance, the stranger with the pink hair says she gets a 50-second phone call from an unidentified individual. This woman says she doesn`t know this family. She`s never seen Baby Lisa until the news broke that she was missing. Again, listen to this from GMA.


WRIGHT: And I told him that I`d been through the neighborhood with my ex-boyfriend. I`ve been through there. Didn`t know the family. Didn`t recognize the pictures. Had never seen Baby Lisa until I saw her picture on the news.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, Joe Gomez, news reporter, KTRH, I`m also hearing a bizarre thing that she and her ex-boyfriend were walking around the neighborhood that night. And that cops have interviewed this particular woman with the pink hair who says she got the mystery phone call from the cell phone that was taken allegedly, reportedly, with the baby. She says the cops had talked to her how many times?

JOE GOMEZ, NEW REPORTER, KTRH: Several times, at least, Jane. You`re right. That is very strange.

You know, additionally, people around the neighborhood say at the same time that Baby Lisa was reported missing, a strange man was walking around the neighborhood with a half naked baby, just a baby in a diaper at 4 a.m. in the morning on this frigid night. So there`s a lot of strange parts of this case, Jane, that are barely coming to the surface.

Like you mentioned, Baby Lisa`s family are refusing to allow Baby Lisa`s brothers to be interviewed by the police. Why not? What have they got to hide? Police cadaver dogs found a -- they got a dead body hit at Baby Lisa`s house. A lot of these facts that are adding up, Jane, do not paint a good picture for the family, I got to say.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you mentioned that. Some people are saying now and suggesting that it seems like Baby Lisa`s parents are more concerned with protecting themselves than finding their precious missing child. I mean, who wouldn`t offer the kids to talk? They did, and then they pulled them back. Why? Listen to this.


WALSH: It doesn`t disturb me that families lawyer up. The Ramseys did, because they kept saying, "Why aren`t you looking for somebody else?" But it bothers me when people won`t do interviews. Trust me: when your child is missing -- I said it many times. If Adam`s kidnapper, and it was a serial pedophile, I would have stood in Times Square naked and took a bullet and did every interview to trade my life for that little boy`s life.

If people aren`t cooperating, if they`re not doing interviews, then you`ve really got to say, you`ve forgotten who the real victim here is. Baby Lisa is the real victim.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, John Walsh, one of my heroes, and he makes an excellent point.

Now, Eric Chase, criminal defense attorney, take a look at this. Along with three different people who said they saw a mystery man in a white T-shirt walking around with a baby the night that Baby Lisa disappeared and this baby was naked in 45-degree temperatures, surveillance video from a gas station in the area spots this. And is this the same person? Is this a guy? Does that person have a baby? Who knows.

But you`ve got so many factors here that are really bizarre. I mean, it`s out of some kind of horror movie, and yet, it`s all too real. What do you make of it?

ERIC CHASE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, this is one of the strangest situations I`ve ever seen at this stage of a case. You`ve got so much going on, and this Megan Wright who got this phone call, who doesn`t know who they got a phone call from? She says she got a 50-second phone call. Apparently, the call was answered. It`s her phone. It`s in her pocket. The phone wasn`t somewhere else, somebody else answering.

I think what the police suspect is that she got a phone call from somebody who stole the phone at the same time they took the baby. And I don`t think she came forward on her own and said, "Hey, look, I got this phone call." The police tracked her down. They ran the was (ph), got the downloads from these phones, identified her as receiving this phone call, and went and interviewed her.

So the question becomes how is she involved in the case? It`s unbelievable to me that you would have somebody who says, "I don`t know the family. I don`t know anything about this case. I got this 50-second phone call. I don`t know who from. I don`t even know who answered the phone." It just doesn`t ring true to my ear.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, a couple of things that seem odd, Pat Brown, criminal profiler. A, that she gets a 50-second phone call and doesn`t apparently have a conversation. We don`t know if this person is male or female. Did the person have an accent? Did the person -- was it a woman? As I just said, male or female. We don`t know anything about it. But if you`re on for 50 seconds on a cell phone, you`re going to end up with some clues. And so she gets this number.

Now, you`re right. Police have had to have tracked her down because how would she know that she got a phone call from the missing cell phone -- Pat.

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Right, exactly. I mean, there`s a lot of possibilities here, so I think the police are trying to, you know, really look through all of them. It could be that they did have some involvement. And one who was involved called the other with a stolen cell phone, and they`re not admitting that.

It`s possible that those cell phones were left some place in a public area where somebody said, "Hey, cool, cell phone." And another possible. Wait, this is what I don`t understand. Didn`t the family say that none of the phones worked, because they hadn`t paid the bills, so they were not functioning phones? Why are they saying that...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. That`s what I heard.

BROWN: ... if this phone can be used, so that`s not -- that`s not true. That`s a lie.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Whoa. Fascinating. That`s a very good point.

Now, the phone lines are lighting up. Nancy, Florida, your question or thought, Nancy.

CALLER: Thanks, Jane. Yes, I don`t understand why the parents even have the right to refuse to talk to police or refuse their children in a case like this. Seeing as we went through Casey Anthony like this. I mean...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Eric, briefly.

CALLER: I mean, to avoid this is beyond my comprehension.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, morally, it`s a question, but what about legally?

CHASE: The parents have a right not to have their children interviewed. And I don`t think that part is that bad yet. Look, a new lawyer`s gotten on the case. They fired their first lawyer. Apparently, she was thrust upon them. She`d been a lawyer for the family for some time. They wanted a lawyer they liked.

And for that lawyer to call the police and say, "Hey, look, I want to figure this case out first before I start letting things happen," hopefully, those kids will be talking in the next couple of days. If this is one or two days it doesn`t bother me...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s been since October 4, a day after she disappeared is the last time the cops talked to them, the older brothers, who were reportedly in bed with the mother when she passed out from drinking at least five glasses of wine. And a cadaver dog hit on the floor of that bedroom, and the kids said they heard a noise.

We`re taking your calls: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297. New developments in the search for a missing American woman, a beautiful woman who vanished in Aruba. I`m going to talk exclusively to her boyfriend.

Plus, more on Baby Lisa.


BRADLEY: Please, please, please call the TIPS hotline if you know where she`s at. And if you have her, please just take her somewhere safe. No questions asked. Just drop her off with somebody at a hospital, a church, the fire department, the police station, anywhere. Just please bring her home.




STEVE ROGERS, NEW JERSEY COP FORMERLY WITH THE JOINT TERRORISM TASK FORCE: In our line of work, when children are involved and are going to be interviewed, they normally don`t lie. They will come right out and tell you everything that went on in a particular place where an incident occurred.

Secondly, may I add that if people are involved that the children know and they were given a script, maybe they`re not sticking to the script and as a result, these interviews are getting canceled.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it true you`re getting paid to avoid local reporters?

BRADLEY: Not at all.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Then why won`t you talk to us?

BRADLEY: We`re grieving.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, there`s a mother saying, "We`re grieving." Poor choice of words? Freudian slip?

Now the mom says she put her baby into the crib at 6:40 p.m. She originally told cops she put the baby down around 10:30. She admits she drank heavily that night after buying a box of wine, probably more than five glasses of wine. Plus anti-anxiety meds, according to some published reports.

12:15, a neighbor reports seeing a mystery man walking around holding a baby in the neighborhood.

2:15, gas station surveillance video shows a man walking past.

Now, 4 a.m., a witness on a motorcycle sees a man walking around holding a baby, naked.

I don`t know what the heck to make of it, Pat Brown, but here`s the thing. I`m trying to think, myself, OK, I`m at home. And I`m in recovery. I haven`t had a drink in 16 years. But you`re at home, you`re drinking more than five glasses of wine. You`re also taking anti-anxiety meds. Often, people have a party when they`re drinking. Now, she was drinking with the neighbor on the stoop. The neighbor leaves at 10:30.

The father is off -- the father of the baby, working the overnight shift for the first time. It was the first time. So does Mom decide, hypothetically speaking, "Hmm, this is an opportunity to party. Who can I invite over or who might just happen along"? That`s certainly a possibility when somebody`s -- and how about, well, if there`s alcohol and anti-anxiety meds, could there be other drugs involved? Is it a fair question, Pat?

BROWN: Well, yes, it`s a fair question, Jane, but what`s interesting is the family, the parents said that they already gave like nine people that are possibilities and they`ve all been alibied. They really had to struggle to think of who these people can be.

Now, if you`ve been -- if you`re drunk at your home to the point where you can`t remember half of what happened, but you know there were people there, you would -- first thing you`re going to think of is "Oh, my God, maybe one of those people did something to my kid." That should be a response.

And something else that`s really weird. When we talk here about that baby being carried about in the cold, now Baby Lisa had -- she had a little congestion. She had a cold that night. And one thing I haven`t heard from the parents, again, is "Oh, my God. Somebody saw my baby being carried around in the cold air? I`m so worried she could have pneumonia by now. You know, we`ve got to find her. Somebody could have -- you know, she could be sick." I haven`t heard that worry. It`s almost like they`re ignoring those sightings, which concerns me.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And why would somebody walk off with a baby in the dead of night? What occurs to me, only, is if you were getting drunk and messed up with somebody else and you got into a big fight with them. And that often happens when you`re drinking. And then the person wants to stick it to you and get even with you for something you may have said. What is the worst thing they could possibly do? Walk off with your baby and take your cell phones so you couldn`t track them down. I`m just saying, it`s a possibility.

Out to the phone lines again. Pearl, New York, your question or thought.



CALLER: I`m interested in the mother`s brother. He looks very similar to the man that they saw walking around with the baby. Perhaps something happened to the baby and the mother called the brother to come get the baby and gave him the cell phones. Has anybody interviewed the brother?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, Joe Gomez, you see right here. We`re looking at the mom purchasing a box of wine earlier in the evening with the brother in the dark T-shirt. But my understanding is that the person who`s walking around with the mystery baby later that night is wearing a white T-shirt. What do you know, Joe?

GOMEZ: We don`t know, obviously. Obviously, we don`t know if there`s any kind of link between the brother and this mystery man who`s walking about, possibly carrying this baby only in a diaper in the middle of the night in 45-degree weather.

But right now, police haven`t made any connection like that, Jane. Right now this mystery man, we`re looking at him as an individual suspect. We don`t even know who he is or where he is or what he`s doing in the neighborhood. We do know that there was -- there were reports of a homeless man in this neighborhood, as well, doing some kind of handy work. Is that this homeless guy, who`s just wondering around? Does he have something to do with Baby Lisa`s disappearance, Jane? These are questions that we`re still trying to figure out.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s listen again to Baby Lisa`s parents describing what happened when the dad got home from work early in the morning Tuesday, October 4, and finds no Baby Lisa.


BRADLEY: I woke up and he came home, and I was -- he said, "She`s not in her crib."

And I said, "What do you mean, she`s not in her crib?" And I just knew, you know, something was really wrong. And we were running around the house, screaming for her. And she was nowhere, and then I said, "Call 911, call 911."

And he said, "Where are the phones?" And they weren`t on the counter where I left them. They were gone.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Again, Pat Brown, when you are drunk, you are likely to allow people that you don`t know, who may be dangerous, into your home and maybe call them to get something from them. Ten seconds, your thoughts.

BROWN: Well, I`m just worried about the fact that that doesn`t seem to be who the family is pointing to. That we had a wild -- some wild party went on.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Got to leave it right there.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The last person to see a missing American woman in Aruba may get out of jail. This time Gary Giordano...

RICHARD FORESTER, ROBYN`S BOYFRIEND: Robyn was still alive, she would have turned up by now. She would have presented herself, and Gary wouldn`t be going through this.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I actually went snorkeling where Robyn Gardner disappeared.

FORESTER: I`d like them to get the information from Gary and say where she is and bring her home. He was the last one with her. I think that makes him a direct connection to the case. I think that he`s the key to it.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Bad day in court tonight for the prime suspect in the case of the American woman missing in Aruba, the judge ruling Gary Giordano will spend 30 more days in jail. He was the last person to see beautiful Robyn Gardner alive nearly three months ago. He claims they went snorkeling and that Robyn was swept out to sea. A lot of skepticism among other people, including her friends and family.

At the hearing, Gary Giordano told the judge, "I am innocent."

In a surprising twist today, it was revealed in court that cops found a towel with blood belonging to Robyn Gardner. Oh, that is so scary. But Gary Giordano`s attorney, Jose Baez of Casey Anthony fame, says this suspect is being treated unfairly.


JOSE BAEZ, ATTORNEY FOR GARY GIORDANO: Basically, what happened with the Natalee Holloway case and how Aruba was, the Aruban police were criticized vastly as well as the prosecution. They`re taking it out on Gary.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Here EXCLUSIVELY tonight, Richard Forester, Robyn Gardner`s boyfriend.

Your girlfriend is missing. Jose Baez, the attorney of the suspect, is saying, "Oh, they bungled the Natalee Holloway case and now, they`re trying to take it out on Gary Giordano." I want to get your reaction to that claim.

FORESTER: I think that`s ridiculous. I mean, there`s no connection to the two. Who he has representing her -- him, is really of no importance to me whatsoever.

What I`ve said along -- the whole time is the important thing is finding her. All the attention is on Gary Giordano right now and building the case. Well, you know what? He`s in jail right now. He`s going to be in jail. He`s in prison, good. Let him stay there for another 30 days. Let him stay there for another 30 days after there. Let`s find Robyn.

I fought for two months to get dogs in there to Aruba, search and rescue, scent dogs. For two months I`ve fought to get them in there and was denied. I fought to get them in there at my cost. Not at the Arubans` cost. Finally, they bring them in, and of course, they don`t find anything.

Honestly, my opinion, I don`t think she`s on the island. I think that they`re -- you know, they follow where the evidence leads them. And I don`t know what evidence they have, but I don`t think she`s on that island. I think she was taken off the island, and I think something that seriously needs to be considered at this point is human trafficking. I know she doesn`t really meet the criteria because of her age, but it goes on in that world.

I`ve spent countless hours and hours researching, talking to people, and I`ve found out a lot of incredible information that just blows me away. And I think that they need to look at that. I`ve brought that up to them, and it just gets debunked right away. I think, you know, the...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Very briefly. Very briefly, you wanted to respond to the horrific "National Enquirer" report claiming that Robyn might have been buried alive.

FORESTER: Yes. Yes, I mean, the "National Enquirer" has made several different reports that are all incredibly false. First of all, they showed pictures -- false pictures of the two of them fighting. It wasn`t Robyn. It wasn`t Gary Giordano. Secondly, yesterday...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`ve got to leave it there, Richard. We`re going to keep this case alive.





UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The man is on for a rape suspect in Texas who may be targeting members of the same sorority.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has assaulted at least four women so far.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our victims all have been associated with the same sorority and alumna group.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In this particular case, it`s been women in their 50s or 60s.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He made it obvious to our victims that he knew details or information about them personally.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A surveillance video from back in April of the man they believe is the person responsible and the person they`re trying to track down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s happening in the one place that they feel the safest and this is in their own home.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Terrifying assaults, a series of them; all within the same area, all against members of the same sorority -- a frightening new chapter in the war on women.

Hi, everyone, Jane Velez-Mitchell here with you live in Los Angeles. What is behind these attacks? All the attacks against women in the same sorority occur in and around three suburbs in the Dallas, Texas area.

Look at this. Security footage of a man accused of sexually assaulting four women in their homes. The victims did not recognize him, but apparently, he was targeting them.

Listen to this.


ANDRE SMITH, PLANO POLICE SPOKESMAN: He made it you know, obvious to our victims that he knew details or information about them personally. And that`s what we gathered so far from our victims.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: You heard it. This attacker has information, personal information, about the women he`s attacking all from the same sorority. What the heck`s going on?

The attacker is not in the same age group as the victims. They`re in their 50s and 60s. He`s, well, anywhere from 20 to 30 years younger. Is this some sort of intergenerational sick personal vendetta? The one common denominator: all four victims once again, Delta Sigma Theta.

Police have no leads.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believe that there`s somebody out there, that once they see this big (INAUDIBLE) and they see his walk. They see his dress. They see possibly just the way he carries himself. That somebody out there may know who this person is.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: What`s your theory? Call me, 1-877-JVM-SAYS.

Straight out to Joe Gomez, news reporter, KTRH News Radio; Joe, what`s the latest on these attacks?

JOE GOMEZ, REPORTER, KTRH NEWS RADIO: Jane, these series of horrific, horrific rapes have put the entire Dallas area on edge. Police say over the past 11 months, a 300-pound beast of a man broke into four women`s different homes and then viciously, sexually assaulted them. All of the women, Jane, by the way, aged 50 to 60 -- 50 to 60 and former members of the Delta Sigma Theta sorority.

Right now, police are trying to find this guy and find out why he`s attacking. Why is he singling out these former sorority members. Did one of them reject him? Does he have a thing for these women? It`s bizarre, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and we`ve got David Tilly of the Plano, Texas Police Department with us. They are working hard on trying to solve this case.

Now, thank you for joining us, sir. I know you`re very busy with 130 chapters of this sorority in Texas alone. And this is a national sorority. You`ve got to have hundreds of women who are terrified thinking well, he`s attacked four members of the sorority who graduated from their colleges decades ago because they`re in their 50s and 60s. I mean they probably graduated sometimes in the mid 1970s or `80s.

What the heck is a guy who`s 20 and 30 years younger than they are doing targeting them? He didn`t go to school with them. Have you found any nexus, any commonality between this suspect and these women?

DAVID TILLY, PLANO POLICE DEPARTMENT (via telephone): No, that`s what we`re trying to identify. We`re trying to get some information. We got this video out there that we`re trying to identify who this person is. And we believe that we possibly can identify who this person is if you`ve got information that can lead to some of these offenses.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You said that he had a certain kind of swagger that was very distinctive. What can you tell us that might key somebody`s memory?

TILLY: Well, I mean it`s just basically, whenever you`d see his walk in the video, in the initial first part of the shot, you can kind of see him walking away and just the way he carries himself and the way that his walk is. We believe that you know, it`s unique and we think that somebody out there might recognize that walk and can possibly give us some information on identification.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How soon will the DNA from the four victims come back to see if indeed it`s the same individual and if you have him in the system?

TILLY: Well, what we have is we have some evidence that has been sent to the lab and we`re waiting on some results to come back to see if we can, you know, work and basically link all these offenses together. Something a little bit more concrete than what we have at this point.


Pat Brown, criminal profiler, what do you make of it? I was thinking well, maybe his mother was rejected by this sorority. Maybe his dad asked one of those sorority members out decades ago and always harbored a resentment, and he`s on some kind of sick vendetta, a mission to avenge some family member. I can`t make head or tail of it.

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, first of all Jane he`s not going to be avenging any family member because he`s a psychopath. And psychopaths could care less about anybody else except themselves, so it had to be something about him.

Now, you pointed out, he couldn`t have been going to college with any of these women because he`s way too young, but a lot of these women can actually join this sorority after they`ve already graduated because it`s a service type of sorority. So these women can be in it now, they could have joined 10 years ago.

It`s possible that he had a girlfriend -- who`s not necessarily the exact age of these women, a girlfriend who was in the sorority and she dumped him and she`s always talking about. Or maybe his mother was always talking about it and ticked him off; something that angered him.

Maybe he did have contact with some of the sorority women through his job near one of the chapters. But definitely it`s unusual because serial rapists usually just find an available woman and do the rape on her. They`re not going to look for specific ones; that`s a lot of work. So he`s extremely rare.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I like what you said, Pat, about perhaps he has dated a woman who is in this sorority currently. She dumps him, he`s angry and he somehow gets ahold of records and says I`m going to go after these women and terrorize these women who are in this sorority. Eric?

ERIC: Well, I actually have a different theory. I don`t think he`s targeting them because they`re in the sorority. I think he`s targeting them because he`s gotten a list. He may have gotten it off the Internet. He may have gotten it because he`s associated with somebody who`s also associated with the sorority.

But apparently has given this guy off is the personal information he has about these women. I think he`s targeting them because he has this information.

And by the way, Jane, they`re going to catch this guy. The information I have read, they have DNA that they have recovered from the scene. It takes at least 30 to 45 days to develop DNA evidence.

In addition with that video being circulated now, this is just getting in the public eye, someone`s going to identify this guy and I predict within a week to two weeks, they`re going to find this guy.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I hope you`re right and meantime, all members of that sorority stay safe. Don`t walk outside by yourself. Have your cell phone with you. Tell somebody where you`re going to be at all times. Walk in pairs.

It makes me angry. We talk about the war on women in this country and why the women have to be penalized for the horrific attacks on them. And why do we have to wear a psychological burka -- which is a phrase that I use -- because there are violent men waging a war on us. It`s really unfair.

And I hope that the cops catch him sooner rather than later. I know they`re doing everything they possibly can, that`s why detective -- Officer Tilly is joining us tonight.

Nancy, Pennsylvania -- we`re going out to the calls -- Nancy, Pennsylvania, your question or thought. Nancy?

NANCY, PENNSYLVANIA (via telephone): Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I`m going to go back -- yes, Nancy, your question or thought, my dear.

NANCY: Hi, Jane. It`s so good to speak with you. I think it must be connected with the sorority. He may have gotten a list, but I still think maybe somebody in his family or could have been a former girlfriend, but there`s some connection there because every victim, you know, was a member of that sorority at one time. So I do think there`s a connection and I think they`re going to catch him fairly quickly now. At least I hope so.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, Officer Tilly with the Plano Police Department out there in Texas, I`m thinking about sororities. I wasn`t a member of one. I went to NYU. We didn`t really have sororities that I knew of anyway. And I won`t date myself by saying when I went to college, but the fact is that these sororities have reunions, they all get together.

Could it even possibly be that this man was working during one of these reunions and was offended by something and took offense and decided? I mean it seems to be a vendetta of some sort. I know that Eric said there was probably a list. What do you know about a possible list?

TILLY: Well, we`ve heard that theory and we`re exploring several different theories. I mean we don`t know whether this person has obtained any type of a list from someone, but there are, you know, you can get information off the Internet. I mean these sororities have Web sites that they can give.

So what we`re trying to figure out --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: But Officer, let me jump in here. I just want to ask you this.

The women were attacked inside their homes. So he goes to their homes in the middle of the night. He has to have a list of the addresses. It`s not just a list of the names. What Web site would put the personal addresses -- I don`t think so -- of sorority members. I think somehow he was in the organization, in a college, and got a hold of a list. Are you doing Internet work?

TILLY: Are we doing Internet work? Did you (INAUDIBLE), our staff -- is that what you`re asking?


TILLY: We`re working everything on this and that`s what I`m saying as far as there`s all kind of theories that we`re trying to figure out exactly how he came up with this because not only does he have the information as far as where they are, but he has some detailed information that he has actually verbally expressed to them, of information that not everybody would have.

And that`s kind of the thing that, you know, has heightened our concern was where he`s able to get all the detailed information related to our victims. That`s very concerning to us and that`s why we`re -- our detectives are working very, very diligently to try to --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Officer, we`re out of time, but go get him. Find him and we want to update this.

Up next, wild day at the Michael Jackson death trial.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Michael should be here with us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If they loved him so much, why didn`t they get Michael off drugs?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What did Michael ever do to the world? What? He tried to heal the world and he`s gone.

NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST, "NANCY GRACE": When you have to have an a.k.a. with your doctor -- an "also known as", an alias -- that should be a big red flag. There`s a problem.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So what if he`s a junkie or he was drug addict? He did not deserve to die by Conrad`s hands.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: A huge day in the defense in the Michael Jackson death trial -- an emotional roller coaster in court. A supporter of Michael Jackson and a friend of his mother`s talks to me and breaks down sobbing right in front of the courthouse. Check this out.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What did Michael ever do to the world? What? He tried to heal the world. And he`s gone.

This woman said so what if he died. So what if Conrad Murray killed him. That -- that hurts. You know what I mean? That hurts. I`m sorry.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Very, very overcome with emotion. Clearly believing Dr. Conrad Murray killed Michael Jackson, but the defense witness, the expert, anesthesiologist for the defense, today he said in court, Michael Jackson killed himself.


DR. PAUL WHITE, ANESTHESIOLOGIST: I cannot understand how it`s possible that he got a three-hour infusion when the evidence didn`t show the infusion set up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you think it was a self-injection of Propofol near the hour between 11:30 and 12:00 that did it?

WHITE: In my opinion, yes.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Who`s the guilty party here? Is the defense putting Michael Jackson on trial? Call me, 1-877-JVM-SAYS.

Straight out to my dear friend, Brian Oxman, Joe Jackson`s attorney and he was also the Jackson family attorney during the criminal trial in 2005.

Brian Oxman, thank you for joining us. What do you and what does Joe Jackson make of the defense arguing vociferously that Michael Jackson popped eight Lorazepam pills and then shot himself up with killer Propofol? That Michael Jackson killed himself, that`s the defense argument.

BRIAN OXMAN, ATTORNEY FOR JOE JACKSON: Michael Jackson is in fact being put on trial and you know something, Jane, it doesn`t wash. It doesn`t work. If the Lorazepam which is Ativan, a controlled substance, was left on the table next to Michael Jackson, and he woke up out of a daze and he self-administered that Lorazepam, that`s a crime. It is not to be done. You do not leave controlled substances in the reach of a patient. The law requires it to be under lock and key. That`s a crime.

Admit what Conrad Murray did and the answer is guilty as charged.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Now, the defense is also trying paint Michael Jackson as a Demerol addict who was in withdrawal at the time of his death and that he had insomnia. Insomnia is a symptom of Demerol withdrawal.

The defense brought on an addiction specialist who listed the Demerol withdrawal symptoms. So, my question is, do those symptoms dovetail with what Michael Jackson`s choreographer, Kenny Ortega, described in a very worried e-mail about Michael Jackson`s health just five days before he died. Listen to this.


DR. ROBERT WALDMAN, ADDICTION SPECIALIST: Withdrawal from opiates tends to result in over-activity of some body functions; anxiety, restlessness, insomnia.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He appeared quite weak and fatigued this evening. He had a terrible case of the chills, was trembling, rambling and obsessing. Everything in me says he should be psychologically evaluated.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Brian Oxman, in court, the defense showed Dr. Arnie Klein`s medical records and showed that his office was giving Michael Jackson huge amounts of Demerol; 900 milligrams within three days, not so long before he died. Do you think that Michael Jackson was hooked on Demerol?

OXMAN: This is the whole problem, Jane. There are chairs in that courtroom which are empty. Conrad Murray is not the only one who was responsible. Make no mistake about it. Conrad Murray is at least half responsible. He is responsible.

But there are other people from the concert promoters to the other doctors who fed Michael Jackson drugs over and over and over again. They drugged him to death. Conrad Murray is guilty, but he is not the only one.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes or no. Should those other doctors be prosecuted in your opinion?

OXMAN: I think so, Jane. I think that their responsibility for Michael Jackson`s death is pretty clear.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. All right. Thank you, Brian Oxman.

More in a moment.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: PETA, People for the Ethical Treatment for Animals filing suit on their behalf against SeaWorld. The animal rights groups claim these five whales are enslaved in violation of the 13th amendment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that it`s abusive to have a sonic creature, a free ranging sonic creature in a swimming pool. Yes, that is abusive.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Can killer whales sue SeaWorld charging them with enslavement? A ground breaking lawsuit by PETA, People for the Ethical Treatment for Animals, says animals should be protected by the constitution.

And PETA is suing on behalf of five, five orcas. Take a look at this video. This is what critics say it looks like when these killer whales are captured and it`s horrific. Once captured the critics say these beautiful creatures who are used to swimming hundreds and hundreds of miles a day have been stuck in, for them, what is the equivalent of a swimming pool or even worse the equivalent of a human being forced to live in a hall of mirrors, forced to swim around in a bathtub.

Well, tonight we`re delighted to have Rick O`Barry, a former dolphin and orca trainer who turned around and went against the industry and is now part of this lawsuit with PETA demanding rights for these animals. He`s also featured in the academy-award winning documentary, "The Cove". Rick, what does captivity do to these majestic animals?

RICK O`BARRY, FORMER DOLPHIN AND ORCA TRAINER: Well, it`s a form of sensory deprivation. These whales, their primary sense is sound. They are sound-oriented. They are also very family-oriented. They are the most social animal on planet.

We get together for birthdays and Christmas and Hanukkah; they get together for life. And so when SeaWorld captures them and drags them into the Shamu Stadium they take away from them the most important -- two of the most important aspects of their life: The world of sound and their family. Is that abusive? Is that stressful? Of course it is.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well SeaWorld has responded, and says it is among the most respected zoological institutions in the world. Quote, "There`s no higher priority than the welfare of the animals entrusted to our care." Your reaction to that, Rick.

O`BARRY: Well, that`s not true. Their highest priority is their bottom line. They made $1.4 billion in profit last year. They can afford to retire these five whales that were captured so violently and put them in a sanctuary where they can once again experience the natural rhythms of the sea, the tides and currents and get involved in birth control. There`s no reason for a whale to be born in a bathtub.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me jump in here. There are other places that are keeping whales and dolphins in captivity. Right now as we speak, there is a new proposal to create a dolphinarium in San Juan, Puerto Rico. And of course it`s going to be a tourist attraction but they also claim it`s going to be used for dolphin therapy to treat autistic children. Is that a cover for a money-making proposition? Is there any validity in that?

O`BARRY: Exactly. That`s exactly what is it. It`s a money-making scam. And they charge these children about $8,000 for this therapy and it`s bogus. It`s snake oil medicine. By the way, Jane, Earth Island Institute --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: More on the other side. More on the other side.



We`re talking about a proposal for a dolphinarium in San Juan, Puerto Rico. By the way, I have no idea what this entails. And this is just generic video of sea mammals out in the world and we`re debating the issue of whether these animals have right. I personally believe they do. I think they have a right to swim in something larger than the equivalent of a swimming pool or a tub.

This dolphinarium that`s reportedly being planned for San Juan, Puerto Rico -- we reached out to the mayor of San Juan, we didn`t hear back. We invite the developers on to tell their side of the story. I don`t know what they are charging. I don`t know what they are doing with it.

But critics are saying that it`s exploitation of these creatures and that the time has come to stop using them for entertainment and treat them with respect.